It's Never Too Late to Turn Your Life Around (ft. Brandon Novak)

Brandon Novak showed all the signs of becoming a highly successful, rebellious young man. He was a professional skateboarder in his early teens, rubbing elbows with the likes of Bucky Lasek and Tony Hawk. In his late teens and twenties, he was a regular on world-famous TV shows like Viva La Bam and Jackass. But drugs and alcohol were always lurking in the shadows for Novak, and he soon fell head-first into the dark trap of his addictions. He endured bouts of homelessness, committed every petty crime you could imagine, and even resorted to sex work to feed his addictions. The stats would suggest Brandon Novak shouldn’t be sober right now. He probably shouldn’t even be alive. But not only is he alive with 9 years of sobriety under his belt, he’s found a deep and meaningful purpose in his life, running his own rehab centers and taking care of his elderly mother. This is the hilarious and heartening story of how Brandon Novak turned it all around. And trust me, if he can do it, so can anyone else. CHAPTERS Chapters 00:00:00 Introduction 00:05:25 What is it like reliving crazy stories? 00:07:46 What's your new definition of fun? 00:22:32 Brandon's early life 00:28:22 When did drugs really become a problem? 00:34:23 Why did rehab #13 work? 00:42:57 How can people help addicts? 00:44:31 Christopher F*cking Columbus of finding rock bottom 00:46:03 The fundamental unhealthy mindsets 00:52:31 Reflection on Jackass 00:56:48 Why Jackass couldn't be made today 01:00:46 Are addicts just trying to get the love they want? 01:06:26 Brandon's treatment centers 01:12:10 What people did for Novak along the way 01:14:13 What do you give too many fucks about? 01:17:26 What do you give too few fucks about? ⇨ Sign up for my newsletter, Your Next Breakthrough. It will help make you a less awful person: ⁠⁠⁠⁨https://markmanson.net/breakthrough⁩⁠⁠⁠ ⇨ Get clarity on what actually matters. Try Purpose, Mark's AI mentor app that learns your patterns, challenges your blind spots, and helps you take action. Get started at ⁠⁠⁠⁨https://bit.ly/4w46FMH⁠⁠⁠ FOLLOW MARK Mark's IG: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/markmanson⁠ Solved IG: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/solvedpodcast/⁠ Twitter: ⁠https://x.com/markmanson⁠ LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/markmanson/⁠ YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@IAmMarkManson

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mark Manson?

  It took Brandon Novak approximately three minutes to find a reason to take off his pants in my podcast studio. And once he had a reason, he did not hesitate to oblige. Famously known as Nudie Novak by his Jackass co-stars, Brandon was a skateboarding prodigy who went on to star in some of MTV's most iconic shows in the 2000s. You've likely known him for falling down skateboard ramps or shitting himself in one of the Jackass movies. But Brandon may also have one of the most incredible redemption arcs that I've ever come across in my life. An alcoholic and intense drug addict since a teenager, Novak blew through millions of dollars, shooting dope to the point where he became homeless and had to resort to sex work to get his next fix. Novak spent his 19th, 20th, 22nd,

• 0:45Mark Manson?

  23rd, 24th, 25th, 27th, 28th, 32nd, 33rd, 34th, and 35th birthdays either in jail or in rehab. And after dozens of overdoses, his friends and family all wrote him off for dead. His mother went as far as to buy a plot at a local cemetery in preparation for his death. Yet somehow, he's still alive, he's lucid, and he's sober. And not only that, he's reinvented himself as a New York Times bestselling author, a motivational speaker, and a certified intervention specialist. He has co-founded the Redemption Treatment Center for Addicts and a series of sober recovery homes that are called Novak's House. But Brandon's incredible story of recovery aside, we talk about more than addiction.

• 1:26Mark Manson?

  We get into all sorts of topics, including why love is not enough if you truly want to help someone struggling in your life, why resentment is at the root of all self-destruction, how persistence can actually backfire, and the surprising link between Brandon's skateboarding accomplishments and his drug abuse, how even the deepest pain can be turned into service, and how humor is the ultimate cure to shame, why no one is irredeemable, and why there's always hope. Brandon's story is not only incredible, but the guy is still fucking hilarious. Some of his stories are-

• 1:59Mark Manson?

  Honestly, you're just gonna have to hear them to believe them. I can't even really describe what they are. So enjoy this one. And I have never done this before, but a warning, I guess. I mean, I know my audience is pretty used to my profanity and me saying inappropriate things, but holy shit, this episode kinda takes it to another level. So you've been warned, but it's worth it. This is Brandon Novak. Let's get into it.

• 2:24Speaker 01

  The podcast that's saving the world. One fewer fuck at a time. It's the subtle art of not giving a fuck podcast with your host, Mark Manson.

• 2:37Speaker 02

  I have this very, really vulgar tattoo. It has Nebraska right here.

• 2:42Mark Manson?

  Oh, yeah?

• 2:43Speaker 02

  That I'd be more willing to show you, but I don't wear underwear, so.

• 2:48Speaker 02

  I just care. Just bear with me. It's worth the show. Well, the party ends in our bus, right? The big tour bus, the party ends. So we're like, dude, let's move into the hotel, because some dudes had room in the hotel. Their party ended, so we just walked around and listened to what room was making noise at like 5 a.m. And figure we'd just barge that party. We did, but the party we barged happened to be a full-blown crack-smoking mission party. So we go in and, and we're smoking rock, and we're smoking rock. And, and the weirdest thing happened. The guy that came to serve us more crack was on his way to take his college exams. And it really made me evaluate where I was at in life.

• 3:30Mark Manson?

  Oh, my god.

• 3:31Speaker 02

  So the party continues to go for like another two days. And then this guy, we had a tattoo artist with us. And he's like, let me tattoo you. Let me tattoo you. Now, mind you, I've been smoking crack for five days. I can't sit still to save my life. And I'm like, you know, and I'm listening to an iPod. And I'm like, you know what? I'll let you tattoo me, but it can only last for one song. Because that's how long I could sit still. And I came up with the concept, you know, I went to Miami, and all I got was this lousy t-shirt.

• 3:58Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 3:59Speaker 02

  I went to Lincoln, Nebraska, and I got, I got fucked up the ass. I got this lousy tattoo. So that's my connection with Lincoln.

• 4:07Mark Manson?

  I was wondering how long it was gonna take you to dish robe. And like, the mics weren't even hot yet. And you're already taking your pants off in the studio.

• 4:17Speaker 02

  The alarming part is I was worried about you guys seeing my dick, but I was like, I'm gonna see my whole asshole. So I don't know what that says about me.

• 4:27Speaker 02

  Pleasure to meet you, boys.

• 4:28Mark Manson?

  Yeah, nice to meet you. Yeah, it's quite an entrance. Quite an entrance.

• 4:34Mark Manson?

  Well, I guess we should just go ahead and get into it.

• 4:37Speaker 03

  My sister lives in Lincoln too, man. Now I'm just gonna think about it every time I'm back.

• 4:41Speaker 02

  I hope she wasn't in that hotel room with us.

• 4:43Mark Manson?

  Yeah, what did she look like?

• 4:46Speaker 02

  And I was seeing weird guys and girls and they're smoking rock and I remember, they didn't know us. We were like the weird outsiders. And they were all really paranoid. So they let us in. They let us start partaking. But I remember, like, they had a mound of crack. And when we wanted to buy more crack from them, they thought in their mind that if we were undercovers, that this would make them safe. They're like, they wouldn't accept our money, like a hand to hand purchase. So they would just have us wadded up and throw it into the corner of the hotel room. And then they would just leave a rock on the other side of the room. Like, that was their logic of how to remain above the law.

• 5:20Mark Manson?

  Junky logic.

• 5:21Speaker 02

  God bless it, man. Fucking like no other.

• 5:25Mark Manson?

  Well, what is it like telling stories like that now? So first of all, you've been sober nine years.

• 5:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, just celebrating nine years.

• 5:31Mark Manson?

  Congrats.

• 5:32Speaker 02

  In May.

• 5:33Mark Manson?

  So how is it? I mean, you, you have probably the most insane collection of stories.

• 5:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:39Mark Manson?

  Like that.

• 5:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:41Mark Manson?

  Like, what is it like revisiting that stuff? I mean, we're having a good laugh.

• 5:44Speaker 02

  Totally. Dude, the, the, the reality of my story is that like, I, for so long, I kind of looked at sobriety as just like this drag, right? Like this death sentence of where, you know, a guy's fun ends and he has to just attend these weird church basements with these old men who take life seriously and the sun has fucking disappeared forever. In my mind, that's what I thought like recovery was gonna look like. And then I realized I didn't get sober to like not be happy.

• 6:15Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  Um, and what I didn't know then, I know now, is that sobriety was just the beginning of like, all I wanted was to get sober. And I thought that if that was enough, I'd achieved like what I wanted out of life. And, and I had no idea how much I was selling myself short.

• 6:29Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 6:29Speaker 02

  Uh, and, and I got sober and then like the world started to open up and I, I started to, um, to find out like who I was. I started to- To to learn how to tolerate myself and then I learned how to like like myself.

• 6:43Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 6:44Speaker 02

  And then I fucked around and started loving myself and getting into the work, the spiritual journey that I went on. And and it talks about that we will no longer regret the past nor nor close the door on it. Right? We accept it and we embrace it. And in this weird thing called recovery, it's such a magical thing that that like my poison has become my medicine. And and those things that were once defects, these ailments that really allowed me to sell myself short, the majority of my life have become my biggest assets that make me so fucking

• 7:23Speaker 02

  superhuman powerful today that I can come in here and totally pull my pants down in the first minute of an introduction. Show you a tattoo of me getting fucked in the ass while smoking crack in Lincoln, Nebraska and and laugh at it.

• 7:37Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 7:37Speaker 02

  Cause dude, where I came from and the things that I was doing prior to sobriety, like that was pain.

• 7:43Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 7:43Speaker 02

  That was like fucking hoof.

• 7:46Mark Manson?

  I imagine your definition of fun has changed.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:49Mark Manson?

  Right? Like, how how would you describe, to say the least?

• 7:54Mark Manson?

  How would you say your definition?

• 7:56Speaker 02

  Finish that seriously.

• 8:01Mark Manson?

  Like, what is fun today versus what was fun 20 years ago?

• 8:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Okay, let's the juxtaposition. Let's I'm gonna paint this picture for you. I was on a tour with my best friend, Ben Margera. He had came up with this band called Fuckface Unstoppable, right?

• 8:18Mark Manson?

  Love it.

• 8:19Speaker 02

  And yeah, and so I was the best friend that would travel on this tour with them. And I was the most important person in the band, yet I wasn't in the band. I have no musical, you know, talents. And I was just a fucking nightmare for everyone on that tour bus. I was just this crazy drug addict who ran around and created problems with everybody everywhere. And and the productive like band members are just annoyed, but they can't do anything because I'm the boss's best friend and he's completely entertained by my bullshit. So finally they came to me one day and they're like, you know, we gotta get you a position. We have to get you something to make you like make sense to being here and for us to be able to tolerate you. And they're like, we're gonna and and they came up with this concept.

• 9:03Speaker 02

  And it's all like really good musicians from big name bands and he kind of piecemealed it together and he was singing, you know, so he had like the bassist, the drum, you know, and um, it was this crazy rock and roll band and, and, and they're like, you're gonna open for the band. And they, they presented, um, Phil Collins, you know, in the air of the heat of the night. Yeah, yeah. But the twist was, I was Pill Collins, right? And, and uh, I'd come out on stage, if, if it was 21 and over, I'd come out naked with a bottle of wine and a cigarette, very Gigi Allen and. Yeah. Butcher the song and, and throw wine and, and, and kind of karaoke the song, uh,

• 9:46Speaker 02

  I can feel it coming the other night. And um, I'd intro the band. And, and I'd intro the guy and, and then when the big, doo doo doo doo doo drums, I'd intro bam. And he'd come running out and jump, fly, kick my face. And then the concert would just kick off. Right? So, so on this tour, we're in Australia, we're doing this like really big tour and, and this is gonna sound really bad, but fuck it, we'll run it. Um, and we're doing this interview with the news and, and they said, you know, me and the other drummer, uh, who was in the band Guttermouth, a really big punk band. And him and I really liked to party and we just would do that thing till the wheels fell off. And they said,

• 10:27Speaker 02

  you know, we've, we've heard at some of your shows that you perform some homosexual acts on stage. Is that the case? And, and I look at the, the interviewer and I'm like, are you calling me gay? And, and with that, I'd jump up and rubbish heap jumps up and, and we hold him down and basically pull his pants down. And I, I basically suck his dick two pumps to prove that I wasn't gay and then walked off stage. Or actually off the interview, right? Now, now, I promise you, I, I have, it's, today is such a cancel culture. I don't even know if you could air that story, but I, I love, you know, everyone, I, I'm, again,

• 11:13Speaker 02

  and please remember the question that was asked for me to give you this answer. What's my fun look like from then to now?

• 11:18Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 11:19Speaker 02

  I was really disconnected from reality. My abnormal was the normal. And, um, at that time, so consumed by drugs and alcohol, that that was like, just a day in the life. It was a really fun thing. We were all about like, any press is good press, leaving an impression, making a statement. And, uh, today, what my fun looks like is, I, you know, I've, I read books, I've, I've given up red meat. I, I go to the gym five days a week. I have an insanely amazing relationship with my higher power. I'm as spiritual as one could get. Uh, I, I've devoted my life to helping people who are where I once was in that insane, chaotic place that don't really see a way out.

• 12:04Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 12:05Speaker 02

  So if you didn't stop listening, once I talked about sucking a dick to prove that I wasn't gay, that will be a full circle thing. So I hope you hung in there, listeners.

• 12:17Mark Manson?

  Hey, man, this is, the, the show's called Not Giving a Fuck, so you're in the right place. You're, you're in a safe place.

• 12:23Speaker 02

  Good.

• 12:23Mark Manson?

  Um, it's interesting, so.

• 12:25Speaker 02

  Fun for me is like, going back to Baltimore, um, my mother's now eighty-three years old. She was the woman that loved me throughout everything in my life. She, she prayed for me when I didn't pray for myself. She bathed me when I didn't bathe myself. She loved me when I didn't love myself. At one point, she had bought a plot for me because she thought that I was gonna die as a direct result of my addiction. Um, and now today, at eighty-three years old, I, I like get to go back to Baltimore when I'm in town and take her grocery shopping and help her get a shower and take her to the dentist. And, and just be a son to my mother. Like, that's legit the fun shit that I can't get enough of.

• 13:02Mark Manson?

  That's beautiful, man.

• 13:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:03Mark Manson?

  It's funny, cause I quit drinking two years ago. I, I wouldn't consider myself an alcoholic, but I was a heavy drinker my whole life. And I quit two years ago. And one of the shocking things to me, I had the same attitude, which was like, well, man, if I don't drink, if I don't like get fucked up and go out. Like, life's gonna suck.

• 13:18Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 13:18Mark Manson?

  It's gonna be dull as shit. And it's strange to me because the things that you just said, like, reading a book, going to the gym, hanging out with your mom, it's a different type of fun. Like, it's, I'm trying to find a way to say this that doesn't sound kinda like lame and cliche, but like, I used to associate fun with excitement.

• 13:35Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 13:36Mark Manson?

  And in chaos.

• 13:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:37Mark Manson?

  And it turns out that there's a whole version of fun that's very peaceful and just very loving and comfortable.

• 13:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:47Mark Manson?

  And that like, it's actually this place where you're like, oh, I don't need to do anything. I can just be here and life can be good.

• 13:56Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 13:57Mark Manson?

  I don't, to me, it's like, it took me till I was almost forty to figure that out.

• 14:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:01Mark Manson?

  And, and once I did, I'm like, what the hell have I been doing the last twenty-five years, man? Like, it's crazy. Um, but I don't know how to, I still haven't quite figured out how to communicate that to people, clearly.

• 14:13Speaker 02

  I don't think you know until you know, right? Like, uh, I, when you were talking about that, I got more excited and kind of like, giddy inside about this new serenity and peace that you found.

• 14:28Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 14:28Speaker 02

  That I can relate to, as opposed to the story of smoking crack in a hotel room for five, you know? And before, you know, it's funny, I always say, thank God, God is God and I'm not God, because I will fuck that job up terribly, right? And if I knew what was in store for me, I would get in the way of it, right? These blessings that are going to be given. And, um, if you would have told me when I was held up in that hotel room smoking rock or, you know, doing these really outlandish behavioral things, um, that one day I'd be, you know, a sober guy who's really into going to the gym and, and working on a relationship with a higher power, I would have been like, fuck you and fuck off. Nothing about that sounds appealing or desirable.

• 15:12Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 15:13Speaker 02

  Until, at thirty-eight, I found myself in this place where I could no longer find enjoyment or fulfillment out of a bag of heroin, a bottle of wine, or a woman with a short skirt on. You know, like, uh, it, nothing was filling that, that internal void that I always tried to fill with an external solution.

• 15:34Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 15:34Speaker 02

  That always came by way of money, property, prestige, or pussy. And, and it, until like, I had exhausted those, what I thought were, were resources, did I realize that, um, You know, it had to be done from within.

• 15:50Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 15:50Speaker 02

  And and that came at me was thirty eight. Uh, that I was like, there, there's more to life.

• 15:57Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  Than this.

• 15:58Mark Manson?

  Cause it will literally destroy you if you don't.

• 16:00Speaker 02

  And now I I see people like going for it and having fun and God bless them. I'll buy them a drink. I'll I'll support their good time anyway. But nothing about that looks appealing to me.

• 16:12Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 16:12Speaker 02

  It's looks so tiring. It looks so draining and it's just so much goes into that.

• 16:18Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 16:18Speaker 03

  How how did you survive that though? Like the stories I've read and heard of you are just insane. And the amount of like your addiction was was deep, man. It was real, real deep. How did you survive that? Like the the odds were against you.

• 16:33Speaker 02

  I thought that my life would play out one of two ways. Either I would die of an overdose or I'd find sobriety. You know, I was fucking really intelligent enough to know that like getting loaded every day was not the play.

• 16:44Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 16:45Speaker 02

  Like that didn't suffice to me. I I knew there was a way, a better way um than the way I was going about it. And I didn't really know what would take. And I remember, you know, we'd be filming like Viva La Bam. And we'd finish for the day, we'd rap and and the cast, the crew, they'd go to the pub and they dinner, drank, good time. And before I would go meet them, I would like go to a an AA meeting. And then I proceed to go to the bar and fucking get loaded and sniff blow and have a great time. And Bam's like, why the fuck do you do this? Like, why do you you go to an AA meeting and then you literally go from he there to here and ask me like if I have any blow like what's? And it just because I knew within my heart of hearts that one day, one of those two things were gonna play out.

• 17:30Speaker 02

  So I I really believe that the the only time you fail is when you quit trying to quit. Um, and thank God that I had people in my life that that showed me love and compassion and and empathy. And also create it like healthy boundaries. I'm just the kind of alcoholic that if you told me you loved me, that simply equate it to like ten dollars.

• 17:56Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 17:56Speaker 02

  Right? I could get over on you. I could apologize for doing so and promise you that it would never happen again, only to repeat those behaviors the next day. Because what I didn't know then, I know now, is alcoholism and addiction had nothing to do with alcohol or drugs. Right? That was never the problem. It was the solution to my problem. My problem was always my thinking, attitude, and behavior. That continued to to take me back to the solution, which was a drink or a shot of heroin. So I had to get to a place where I could get into a program that could teach me enough about the disease that I had been diagnosed with, which was alcoholism.

• 18:36Speaker 02

  To where I could then be armed with the facts in order to stand a chance against this opponent that I'm up against. Which, by the way, I didn't know then, I know now, is that I was fighting a fixed fight every time. Like, no one ever wins until we admit complete defeat. Which logically makes no sense, because prior to sobriety, in order for me to drink and drug, I had to fight. To fight was to win. To fight was to survive. To fight was to live. To fight was to make it through another day. And then I get into recovery, and they're like, dude, to fight is to die. To fight is to relapse. To fight is to not succeed. So I was like completely wired the wrong way.

• 19:16Speaker 02

  And then on that speed, coming back, the miraculous part is why I was spared, I think, because nothing shy of God's grace and mercy. I got into the work, and I read your book, In the Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck, which, you know, brilliant title, brilliant cover, brilliant color. That's why I grabbed it. I was in an airport and I saw it, and I'm like, dude, I can relate to that, right?

• 19:42Speaker 02

  And I grabbed it, and there were a lot of parallels. There were a lot of similarities to the teachings that you were talking about, and mine came way by virtue of the 12 steps.

• 19:54Mark Manson?

  I hear from 12-step guys all the time, by the way.

• 19:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's big within our community.

• 19:59Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 20:00Speaker 02

  And what happened with me through working the 12 steps, I had a spiritual experience. The definition of a spiritual experience is simply a psychic change. So I, Brandon, like today, no longer look at things the way I did when I was smoking crack in a hotel room.

• 20:16Mark Manson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 20:17Speaker 02

  In Lincoln, Nebraska.

• 20:18Mark Manson?

  I love that definition.

• 20:21Mark Manson?

  I mean, by definition, a different person, right? Yeah.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  Legit.

• 20:24Mark Manson?

  Yeah. You had a window, you got cleaned, there was a window in the early 2000s or mid 2000s, you were clean, right? And then you had a relapse in 07 or something?

• 20:32Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 20:33Mark Manson?

  No, is that?

• 20:34Speaker 02

  There was never, like, I would go to treatment and I would like, sometimes, I was able, one time, to put 30 days together after completing a treatment center.

• 20:44Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 20:44Speaker 02

  And every one of those 30 days, I was miserable. I was so angry that I had lost the ability to drink wine like a normal human being. Cause in my mind, I, I didn't, I wasn't an alcoholic. I didn't steal to get it. I didn't shake when I didn't have it. I wasn't completely fucking a mess to the world without it. And then, uh, my fiance at the time, which is now my ex, she, she, you know, ran a pub down the street and it was just a social affair. And, and I just wanted to fit in, right? Like, cause I didn't see life without that.

• 21:16Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 21:17Speaker 02

  Like, how, what would I do on a Friday night? And so after like 31 days, after being sober and angry for 30, I'm like, fuck, and I just did it. And, uh, so that was the most that I'd ever put together.

• 21:27Mark Manson?

  Let's rewind a little bit. Let's talk about you as a young man, your childhood, you were a skateboarding prodigy. Take us through like the, the skateboarding rise and then how that led into this world of craziness and partying and everything. Cause I imagine, I mean, you were exposed to a lot of this stuff way before most people are. And that probably contributed to some of it.

• 21:49Speaker 02

  For sure. I mean, like, if you look at it now in hindsight, and then like at that moment, I know that this is what I'm going to do. And as a matter of fact, skateboarding did for me at a really young age, what drugs and alcohol did for me at a later age. It would provide me this sense of like security and like you give me that skateboard at the age of seven. With that, I kinda, it was my talent and, and, and I didn't play baseball. I didn't, you know, ride bikes. I didn't play soccer. Skateboarding was it. And, uh, I got really good, really quick at a young age. And there was another pro skater out of Baltimore by the name of Bucky Lasik. Um, and he took me under his wing. He recognized the talents I had. And then he got me sponsored by Powell because he rode for Powell Peralta at the time.

• 22:35Speaker 02

  Now, we're in Baltimore. I'm fourteen, fifteen years old and I'm riding for PAL. But like, the accountability aspect for a teenager and his job was unlike mine. Yeah. My accountability to my job, which was skateboarding, was going down to the corner, pumping five dollars into the payphone to make a call to San Diego, or Santa Barbara, to my team manager Todd and be like, "Hey, this is what tricks I'm working on. I filmed this." You know, like, there was no, like, checking in somewhere regularly so someone could witness my behaviors or what was going on with me. Yeah. Um, I didn't have to be in when the streetlights came on. I skated with older guys. My mother knew that I was good and she trusted me with these guys.

• 23:20Speaker 02

  So there was no accountability in my life. Not to mention, my father was a drug addict who had passed from his addiction, obviously, crack as well. Theme there. Yeah. And, um, plot twist, he was in that hotel room.

• 23:37Speaker 02

  He passed, uh, but his father was an alcoholic too. So I thoroughly believe that I was genetically predisposed. Like, the odds were not in my favor. Um, so I have that. My father was a really gnarly guy. He, he, uh, he was around just enough to let us know he wasn't around. He, he never held a job a day in his life and he taught me one thing and that was like, if and when I went to prison, how to conduct myself. He rode with the Hells Angels. He was one of those kind of guys. Yeah. Um, and he would take me with him on, you know, business endeavors where he's selling his drugs and going to strip joints and they'd sit me at the, the bar and the dancing girls would pour shots of ginger ale and Coca-Cola into the shot glasses and I would do them and

• 24:22Speaker 02

  my father would give me that look of approval. The girls would applaud. So I, I was kind of being morphed into that. Paired with no accountability, skating, mother working to carry us all, because my father was just a delinquent and, um, and then ultimately, what happened is I started, like, skateboarding required a lot. I had to film, I had to get tricks, I had to film video parts, I had to endure slams. A lot of hardships in that, which, anything you love, you give your all. And, um, paired with the genetics, I stole some herb from my father's stash one day and then I stole some coke from him and, and then he also got a lot of pharmaceuticals, so I stole some Valiums from him. And then I started kind of shifting away from the skate crew.

• 25:06Speaker 02

  Um, and I was hanging out with the ones that liked to party, but at this point, I had gotten sponsored by Powell, because to this point, skateboarding wasn't cool at that time.

• 25:16Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 25:16Speaker 02

  Right now, it's like in the Olympics, it's totally like an acceptable thing. Then I was that weird little skate rat nerd that like wasn't invited to parties. Chicks didn't look my way. But one day I got a picture in a thrasher magazine and this chick Natasha, who I was fucking so head over heels for, gorgeous chick. She, her brother skated. Her brother's like, this is that kid that's in your class. She brings that the thrasher into school and I'll never forget it in science class, I see them looking at the thrasher and I'm in it. And I'm like, dude, they're gonna, and they, her and all her girlfriends, look at the picture and then look at me and then just instantaneously, I became cool in the blink of an eye. That night I was invited to like the keg parties, which no one ever thought to ask me to.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  Paired with the genetically predisposed, stealing the stuff from my father, becoming like, um, desirable to the cool, pretty girls that usually only fucked with the football quarterbacks. It just like, kind of took on a life of its own and I went further in that direction away from the skating and the accountability of like, you know, uh, productive members in my life.

• 26:24Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 26:24Speaker 02

  And just drifted out. And then by the time it got so bad, no one knew. Because they thought, well, you know, there's a method to his madness. He's, he's like been successful in his own right at a young age. Why wouldn't he know what he's doing?

• 26:39Mark Manson?

  Yeah, it's interesting, like just reading about your story, it made me think of, it's the sort of thing you hear a lot with like child actors, like child stars, right? Like it's, it's, there's so much success at such an early age that you don't get like a normal identity formation, like no, no sort of, all the guardrails are removed and so it's kind of the worst proclivities are just kind of free to. To run rampant wherever they want to go. And it's just weird because it's, you know, it's, it's a different thing. It's the skateboarding thing, but you know, you, I can kind of see the same elements at work. What would you say like, when, when did you, when did it really become? I know this is a very relative term, but like, when did it really become a problem?

• 27:24Mark Manson?

  When did it take over?

• 27:25Speaker 02

  For sure. And it's a great question. With all the different things going against me, my father, my upbringing, the genetics. Also me being a skateboarder, right? I was already like, uh, I was kind of a nuisance to society at a young age, right? Like I was destructive. I destroyed properties with skateboards and, you know, so I already was like, and then going into becoming a full blown alcoholic and then finding recovery. What I learned is that me as a whole and most alcoholics are, uh, and I think paired with skateboarding and, and any other kind of crew that is so passionate about what they do. Uh, whatever that may be, that we're defiant by nature.

• 28:08Speaker 02

  We hate authority and we refuse to conform. And for me, it was because I possessed this job and this job placed me in a lot of positions I didn't like to be in. And it allowed me to feel a lot of feelings I didn't like to feel. And that job consisted of knowing everything. Paired with the fact of a successful upbringing and a skateboarding career. Then later on, when I started to realize it was a problem was way later because I just refused to admit defeat. Who in their right mind wants to admit that they did not succeed at something?

• 28:40Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 28:41Speaker 02

  Good, bad or indifferent. Like if I'm in, I'm in and I'm going to figure out a way to like, make this work. And skateboarding, which played a big part into the way that I went about my addiction, but also more importantly in recovery. It's kind of been the glue that's held everything together in my life. Is that it taught me from a very young age that that failure was unacceptable. And no is not an option, right? Cause skateboarders, they will try a trick for days, weeks, months, maybe even years. And then they get it and then it's just on to the next. Like it's not like we're gonna toy around with a trick for a few weeks. Then just throw it to the wayside. And that parlayed into my addiction.

• 29:22Mark Manson?

  Interesting.

• 29:23Speaker 02

  Because like despite any and all adverse consequences that came my way, I did what I had to do to get what I needed to get. Like legit. And and throughout that, which is why there's like several ex-fiancés, um, you know, tons of destroyed relationships and separations, because when these really good, positive, influential people in my life, that genuinely loved me for me, attempted to stand between me and my, my drink or my drug, you had to fucking go. No matter what, you had to go. And it was never personal. It was just business, right? Because I was so fucking wired the wrong way. Um, that like,

• 30:07Speaker 02

  when it got to a point where I realized that I was in over my head and and I got to a place where I couldn't get out of on my own, was way later than I think the norm.

• 30:18Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 30:19Speaker 02

  So for me, that was like treatment center number nine-ish, you know? Like we're most like their their level of endurance for pain is like, fuck, that sucks. Let me stop.

• 30:31Mark Manson?

  Well, it's interesting, the point you just made about skateboarding. To skateboard well, you, you need to fuck up a trick hundreds, thousands of times. Like there's a, a level of persistence that comes with skating that is unlike most other sports. And it's like that persistence worked against you.

• 30:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:49Mark Manson?

  Because you're like, ah, no, I'm fine. I'm fine. Yeah. It's where it's like a, like, I don't want, there's no normal person. But like a, a different person who didn't have that level of persistence, you know, maybe rehab number two or three.

• 31:00Speaker 02

  Exactly. And in the skateboarding world, you know, if I'm going to, to film a, a nine stair rail, a handrail, like I, I'm not gonna just kinda like walk down those stairs. Each slam is going to fucking hurt. I'm gonna feel it.

• 31:14Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 31:14Speaker 02

  It's gonna affect me for days. I'm gonna walk with a limp. I might break my, you know, whatever it is. The stakes are high.

• 31:20Mark Manson?

  We recently had. I don't know if you know Rich Roll, the podcaster, former alcoholic, recovered alcoholic. We were talking a little bit about recovery as well, and he got sober in his 30s. And then he became an ultra endurance runner. He did five Ironmans in five days.

• 31:37Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 31:37Mark Manson?

  Which is fucking nuts.

• 31:38Speaker 02

  That's insane.

• 31:39Speaker 03

  On five Hawaiian islands.

• 31:40Mark Manson?

  Oh, yeah, and, and he, it was interesting because when we were talking about it, and I'm like, seeing a similar thread, which is like, there's like a pain tolerance with addicts. Like, there's something about, because I was, I was asking him about this, I'm like, most people by drink three or four, they're like, this feels bad.

• 31:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:58Mark Manson?

  I'm gonna stop. Similarly, most people by mile three or four are like, this feels bad. I'm gonna stop. You know, it's like the same personality just blows through both of those.

• 32:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:07Mark Manson?

  And I think it's similar with, with like the skateboarding thing. It's just like, alright, I've fallen on my face 13 times, let's get back up to the top of the rail, let's do it again.

• 32:16Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 32:16Mark Manson?

  You know?

• 32:17Speaker 02

  What I've accepted is that I'm part of that 10% in the world that has lost the right to have a drink or a drug successfully, meaning there's always repercussions to be had. I'm separate than the 90%, like my mother, like Spencer, like anyone that, they can go to the pub, they can have a glass of wine, a Jack on the rocks, whatever, and then go home and go to bed. One glass of wine just fucking infuriates me. What is the point? It's a waste of everything. I just start to feel the effects after like glass two.

• 32:50Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 32:51Speaker 02

  There's no way in hell I'm going home, right? We're gonna, then we're gonna go to the bottle, and then the bottle, you know, there's four glasses to a bottle, only an alcoholic really knows that. And then I graduate to multiple bottles, and then I get the blow, because I want to keep the party going, where the normal person will be like, I have responsibilities to adhere to. I have, you know, loving relationships that I would not like to ruin. And I'm like, fuck that, it's just par for the course. Like, what pubs open?

• 33:20Speaker 03

  Going to that pain thing, though, you obviously have a very high pain tolerance, like Mark was just saying.

• 33:26Speaker 02

  And all I can think of is like, imagine what my kink is. That's where I go with this every time.

• 33:32Mark Manson?

  Well, I feel like we learned a little with your tattoo.

• 33:35Speaker 03

  That's not where I was going with it.

• 33:38Speaker 03

  You were in rehab 13 times, you know, a bunch of detoxes and everything like that. The 13th time worked, and I've heard you say it was because you finally experienced a requisite amount of pain. And I asked Rich all this too. What was it about that pain at that moment? Was it coupled with something else? Some sort of perspective, some sort of, uh, maybe it was divine intervention like you've talked about. What was it about that pain at that moment that finally turned it around for you?

• 34:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm a, I'm a major fan of timing and alignment. Two of the biggest pet peeves in the English dictionary to me are the words luck and coincidence. I believe everything is destiny and fate, everything. And, um, it was a multitude of all of those things you just said. It was timing, it was alignment, it was the appropriate teacher was appointed the position by the higher power to be placed in my line of fire to, to say what had been said to me a million times, but this day I didn't hear it. I actually listened to it and it landed, right?

• 34:46Speaker 02

  Like it wasn't like, uh, it was age, it was maturity, it was, uh, it was, it was the pain that came from all of that, accepting the fact that I had created this outcome. Because prior to that, I, I simply just rearranged the furniture on the Titanic for the better part of 15 years and my ship sank every time. So at the end, I could no longer blame it on the fiance because she's now the ex. I could no longer blame it on, um, the judge because he didn't like who I was or the, the parole officer's piss test because it was faulty. Like I had exhausted those ways that I used as an out because they had happened so many

• 35:30Speaker 02

  times that I, I just started to do what I was. Terrified to do and why I continued to get high for so long, I started to look at myself. And, and, and that was a scary fucking thing to see. And that's why I always got high. Every time I drank or I drugged, it would produce without fail, this delusional effect. That would allow me to escape the reality that I, Brandon Novak, had created for myself. Right? Cause I would come to after a night, a bender, in a jail cell, in a detox unit, somewhere I would come to sober. For a brief period of time, and I'd have that moment of clarity to see what my life really looked like was.

• 36:14Speaker 02

  And, and it was so unbearably disgusting yet painful that it was imperative for me to get a drink or a drug. Immediately. So I could then wash, rinse, repeat, escape from reality. You know, you, you give me a line of cocaine, a glass of wine, a bag of heroin, a Xanax. Uh, it, it will not only make like, watching white paint dry, but like a fucking enjoyable job. You know, it will make like, not only reading the Bible doable, it'll make it fucking seem like it's the funnest thing on earth. It will allow me to find like homelessness, not only manageable, but fucking desirable. Like that's the false reality that it will create for me.

• 36:58Speaker 02

  Um, and at the end, at 38 years old, after attempting to find sobriety so many times in so many ways. I started to, um, to acquire this knowledge and this information. Which was the worst thing I could have ever done for my, my drinking and my drugging. Because, uh, now I had to be accountable for my actions. Prior to ignorance was bliss. Yeah. Like, I shot heroin because it was on the table. Why the fuck would I not? I didn't realize, well, maybe you wouldn't because like, feelings aren't facts and feelings will pass. And if you don't do what you always did, which is act off impulse, think and do, you won't regret what you're about to do. Right? So I started to acquire some information and knowledge to have a better understanding of the disease that I suffer with called alcoholism.

• 37:43Speaker 02

  And, and what happened No matter how much heroin I shot, wine I drank, cocaine I sniffed, crack I smoked, that delusional effect was no longer being produced. Interesting. Talk about that being a fucking mindfuck. Interesting. I'm thirty eight years old. I had given everything that I loved and cared about to my drugs. And they worked. They did what they were supposed to do, right? I'm like, living in an abandoned house. I'm prostituting my body. I'm letting men blow me for fucking heroin. Um, and I, it's cool because it works, but then it, it literally stops working. No matter how much I use, I can't escape my reality. I'm stuck living in that moment of clarity and I, uh.

• 38:27Speaker 02

  So all of that paired just, uh, you know, equated to the timing and of a lot in alignment of, of the appropriate amount of pain being delivered for me to be willing to do what I had never done, which is change my behavioral pattern. Cause I, I, I learned in the program that it has nothing to do with the drinking, but the thinking, the thinking, the attitude, the behavior. So even while I'm getting loaded, I can recognize that my behavioral pattern continues to create this outcome. And the only way that I can change this outcome is by changing the narrative. Yeah. Right? So again, life lived forward and learned backwards, even while getting loaded, because I had attempted to find sobriety so long.

• 39:07Speaker 02

  It was this weird, full circle moment where on my way to my last treatment center, it all made sense. Whereas before it didn't. But you needed all of that, I'm sure. All of it. You needed all of it. All of it. All of it. And that's the, that's the really discouraging thing about, you know, I, I again, have given my life to helping people today and, and I work with people and, and I, I, I have to play devil's advocate. And now I'm the one trying to convince them why accepting this hand of helping makes more sense than going to the pub or, or sniffing whatever, you, you know. Um, and I just think to myself, if I could just give them a piece of what I had, they'd be like, what the fuck did I stay stuck on stupid so long for? Yeah.

• 39:50Speaker 02

  You know, but everyone's entitled to their process. And, and the discouraging part of this, because if you look at the, the statistics, the, the, the data collected, the analytics of, of all these studies, it states that myself, who's in recovery.

• 40:06Speaker 02

  Should be high or dead. The fact that I'm not is A miraculous equal miracle and B it defies logic. So looking at all those studies, it states that we are fighting an unwinning fight. Right? Where most of society says, is it fucking worth it? Like, what are we doing? What's, how are we succeeding? How is the world changing? Ask the majority of the people, the loved ones who have lost their sons, their daughters, their husbands, their wives to an overdose, is it working? They'll say no. But ask my mother and she'll fucking say, yeah.

• 40:40Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 40:40Speaker 02

  Because I'm not buried in that plot that she bought me years ago. You know, so it's all perspective.

• 40:47Mark Manson?

  What do you say to somebody that you want to help? Like, if there are people listening to this, they have a loved one who has an addiction, a problem.

• 40:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:55Mark Manson?

  What can they do? What's the best they can do?

• 40:58Speaker 02

  For me, the beautiful thing about my story and what I know is that I got to a point to realize what I did know is that I didn't know. And all I have is my experience. My resume reads, I'm, you know, I was expelled from the 11th grade as a direct result of my addiction. I got my GED in the penitentiary, multiple stints and rehabs. I didn't study, I don't have a PhD, I just have my experience. My experience stated for me that when my loved ones created those really healthy boundaries and stuck to them and allowed me to have repercussions from my actions and didn't get between me and my bottom and let alcoholism take its course, but all while

• 41:43Speaker 02

  remaining loving and caring and willing to help me when I was willing to accept that help. But like, they would not entertain like, hey, mom, can I get $10 because I haven't ate for three days and I'm hungry? No, we will not give you. A $10 for dinner. We will not buy you a dinner, but we will take you to rehab.

• 42:05Mark Manson?

  Yeah. So is that that healthy boundary of of being there for support if necessary, but also not enabling?

• 42:11Speaker 02

  Correct. Which is such a a fine line to navigate through.

• 42:15Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 42:15Speaker 02

  Because love can kind of convolute reality of things sometimes.

• 42:20Mark Manson?

  You mentioned bottom in passing, rock bottom in passing. From what I can tell, you're like, you're Christopher fucking Columbus of finding bottom.

• 42:31Mark Manson?

  Like you, there was always another one to find.

• 42:35Mark Manson?

  Wait, was there ever a real rock bottom for you? Was there multiple? Was it like a layered thing? Like, how did that? How do you see that for yourself?

• 42:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, you know, one of my, one of my mentors, he said, you know, Novak, you can hit your bottom

• 42:51Speaker 02

  whenever you stop digging. And that was so simple that I missed it. And I'm like, fuck. I chose to like, buy stocks in shovel making fucking businesses and and invest in a few bulldozers and I, and it, but then my last bottom was by far my most painful bottom. But the irony in it is that it wasn't my deepest. Actually, this bottom came up to meet me because I had acquired all that information along the way of trying to find sobriety.

• 43:24Mark Manson?

  Interesting.

• 43:25Speaker 02

  Right? The process. And that was more than enough. That was more than enough. So it's just, it's such a mind fuck that you don't really understand it until you understand it.

• 43:36Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 43:36Speaker 02

  Because then that can parlay into recovery.

• 43:39Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 43:39Speaker 02

  Right? Recovery is one of these things that works so well. If I'm not remaining proactive in my recovery, I'll fuck around and stop doing it.

• 43:47Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 43:48Speaker 02

  That's insane.

• 43:50Mark Manson?

  So earlier you you talked about it's the mindsets, attitudes, behaviors. I I personally think a lot of, a lot of those mindsets and attitudes, like even if you're not an addict, they hurt people a lot, right? Like, what what would you say the the fundamental? Unhealthy mindsets and attitudes are like one's definitely an inability to take responsibility for your own actions behaviors like what else are the fundamental things would you say?

• 44:17Speaker 02

  You know, this can be looked at several different ways. So if there's someone out there listening and watching and and they just slice off a few too many martinis at their business meeting, they'll be like, well, you know, I never smoked crack in a hotel for five days. I never let a man blow me to get another martini. So like that will never be me, right? Like I've seen me do that.

• 44:41Speaker 02

  Have another martini.

• 44:44Mark Manson?

  Let's see where that goes.

• 44:46Speaker 02

  Fuck it. I'll buy it for you.

• 44:49Speaker 02

  Until I won't and you need it, then what you do for it?

• 44:54Speaker 02

  Like I'd also say like my bottom was not my bottom either. And my story was not my story either in the beginning.

• 45:02Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 45:02Speaker 02

  Right? I continue to prolong the inevitable. And then I also had another wise mentor who said to me one day, he said, no, you're like really good at procrastinating things. And I said, yeah, he said, you know what they say about procrastination, right? I said, no, what? And he said procrastination is like masturbation. You only fuck yourself. And I was like, and everything he was saying, I couldn't combat against because I'm like, damn, I, I, he was right. No matter how much I wanted to like, play off of his narrative, there, there wasn't, I couldn't. So I had to do what you said. The very first thing was accept responsibility for my actions. Which, which, and then, and only then did I have the ability to change the outcome.

• 45:45Speaker 02

  Right? I had to accept responsibility. I had to look at the part that I played. And recognizing that the common denominator in every one of my problems is me. And if I just get the fuck out of my way, I might stand a chance. But let me take a look at who I surround myself with. Well, I'm, I'm renting a room in an abandoned house from a man named Slim, who owns this abandoned house. And occasionally he'll steal electric from the other house up the street, like, you know, and, and I share a bed. With three other people and we all shit and piss into the same Home Depot bucket in this in that. So like, why would I not live that way? Why would that not be the norm?

• 46:29Speaker 02

  I damn sure wasn't like going to the library and studying, you know, how to become a scientist. That, so I had to then start surrounding myself with like-minded people who genuinely had my best interest at heart. And it all reverted back to what my mother used to tell me as a child. Show me who you walk with and I'll tell you who you are. And then once I started to slowly submerge myself, understand the reality of my alcoholism, get into recovery, I learned throughout my process that my mentality will create my reality. Right? So, so depending on who I'm surrounding myself is who I'm becoming, you know, and, and,

• 47:10Speaker 02

  and, and these thoughts will create my realities. And the truth of the matter is God does not know the difference between a prayer and a fucking complaint. Like he doesn't differentiate that. And I don't want to turn anybody off because I think the word God can be very discouraging to some and I'm totally cool with that. As a matter of fact, I don't even really believe in organized religion. I'm not religious at all, but I'm insanely spiritual. And in my spiritual practices and my journey with my recovery, they, they, they say that acceptance is the answer to all. So where's my spirituality if I judge your spirituality?

• 47:51Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 47:51Speaker 02

  I, I did a year in, in the penitentiary and my celli, uh, who was named was Jihad. And he was the head of the Muslims and I, I fasted with the Muslims. You know, I went to Greece, I went to the Holy Mountain and I got blessed by, by these monks. I'm all about just having these different experiences and, and taking what I can from all these people to just kind of like. You know, strengthen my arsenal to tap into to a power that's greater than myself. Because when I'm running this show, I think that a shot of heroin is the answer to you fucking annoying me.

• 48:26Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 48:26Speaker 02

  You know, or whatever, like I'll create these narratives.

• 48:29Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 48:29Speaker 02

  And then what I learned again is that I cannot control any of you, right? The moment I place an expectation on you, all I've done is set myself up for an unfulfilled resentment. And if you notice with sober people, like the gentleman you were talking about before, I don't know him, but I'd imagine he doesn't walk around filled with resentments of how life did him wrong.

• 48:52Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 48:52Speaker 02

  Because the 10% that I am, which is an addict or an alcoholic who's lost the right to drink or drug without repercussions, we don't have the luxury or liberty to harboring resentments. We don't. Resentments are the number one offender to an alcoholic that will take them back out. Not maybe, not possibly, if the opportunity will, right?

• 49:14Mark Manson?

  Why do you think that is?

• 49:15Speaker 02

  Just because you fucking, you say something that makes me angry, I drink wine at you.

• 49:22Mark Manson?

  Hmm, you feel justified.

• 49:24Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 49:25Mark Manson?

  You're like, that asshole did this thing. I deserve this.

• 49:30Speaker 02

  Totally, legit.

• 49:31Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 49:31Speaker 02

  And then, and then depending on how, what, how deep into this game of alcoholism or addiction you're in, they talk about triggers, right? Like what are your triggers that would make you think a drink is an answer?

• 49:43Mark Manson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 49:44Speaker 02

  And I was the kind of alcoholic that, that triggers are when my fucking eyelids open, right? Like I will justify why.

• 49:52Mark Manson?

  I'm breathing.

• 49:54Speaker 02

  You breathe too fucking loud. Yeah, I need heroin to fucking not be annoyed by your breathing tones. Straight up, like I've seen me do this. So like resentments are not, you know, and it talks about it in our teachings. And our teachings are out of a book, the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous, which is the same as the Bible is to a holy goer.

• 50:19Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 50:19Speaker 02

  That was written by Jesus or whoever.

• 50:21Mark Manson?

  When you think about jackass, what do you think about today? What comes to mind?

• 50:26Speaker 02

  So grateful to have been a part of such a beautiful process. Some of the best times of my life were had in those experiences. Some amazing relationships were born out of, laughs that I'll never forget.

• 50:41Speaker 02

  Um, and oddly enough, again, my whole life being done by design. What I didn't know then that I see, believe and can speak of today is that I was allowed the privilege to be a part of such an amazing thing that that became worldwide recognized. Where I had built this rather large social media platform for being, you know, this insane, you know, my character was Nudie Novak and I ran around naked and I, I, it paired perfectly for an alcoholic or an addict, right? Because the, the, the character that I was playing,

• 51:26Speaker 02

  the more outrageous my behaviors were, the more outlandish the antics became, the higher the ratings there were, the more in demand I was, the more money I made, which then just continued to funnel my alcoholism. So it was like a junkie's dream, that job, right? Like, think about that. Um, but it was, little did I know, it was going to play out into this big blessing because I, I built this big following of just being this public, like, guy who didn't give a fuck, did whatever, wherever, with whomever, to then be blessed with this new way of life, recovery, uh, truly a changed man. And I use my platform and,

• 52:06Speaker 02

  and the numbers that I created from that public persona to let people know that like, change is possible and they buy into what I'm talking about because they saw it play out through the public eye. And then, you know, I put on all my stuff. If you want help, you can reach me directly and they call because they know my story. There's depth, there's weight. You can read in the books, you can see it in the tabloids. There's a documentary coming out about it. Like, like it's, it, it lands differently than a professor giving you a tutorial on what addiction and the hypothesis, uh, might come from if you fuck, you, that just fucking annoys me. Fuck off. Yeah. So I, I, I come from a place

• 52:48Speaker 02

  of, um, understanding as opposed to trying to be understood. Yeah, yeah. You know, and so it's, it was, it was just such a blessing. But again, if I would have known that, I would have fucked all that up.

• 53:01Mark Manson?

  Well, it's funny. It was interesting. I went back and watched some of it.

• 53:05Speaker 02

  Which is, I'm sorry to cut you off, but that's kind of how your book was created, right? Like a blessing in disguise from you doing kind of these posts on it and then you turn that into the book, right?

• 53:15Mark Manson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:16Speaker 02

  The traction that it got?

• 53:17Mark Manson?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 53:18Speaker 02

  Did you see that being the?

• 53:20Mark Manson?

  No, no, no, no. It was, you know, the, what originated, what eventually made it into the book really originated from my frustrations with my, within my own journey. I was very into like kind of conventional self-help and personal development when I was young and I felt like most of that stuff just didn't work for me or kind of failed me and I was frustrated by it and just wanted to, was like seeking other answers that made more sense to me and and that, that all eventually became the book. This actually ties in well. I'm going to bring this back to Jackass in a second, but it ties in well because

• 54:00Mark Manson?

  I think what's interesting, I think the reason that the, my book partly resonated with so many people, especially in my generation, our generation, the millennial generation, like we're kind of well-known for just being cynical and pissed off and, you know, disgruntled about everything and

• 54:19Mark Manson?

  in many ways, my book kind of fit that branding of like, okay, well, here is like useful life advice, but it's not, we're not going to couch it in like woo-woo, touchy-feely, like, ah, just love yourself. Like it's, life's fucking hard and there's a lot of bullshit going on. So like, let's be honest about it. And that resonated with our generation.

• 54:38Mark Manson?

  And I want to bring this back to Jackass because it was interesting watching Jackass again. I hadn't seen it since I was, you know, when it came out in my twenties. And, uh, you know, my memory back then was just laughing hysterically. It's interesting watching it now, both as an older man, but also in 2024 because A, there's no fucking way that would get made today. No fucking way. And like just the, the amount of sensitivity around everything, you know, not even woke stuff, but just everything is in the, the legal issues and everything, like it would, there's no way that would get greenlit. But two, and this is something I've talked about before on the podcast, there's something interesting to me, which is that

• 55:20Mark Manson?

  You know, our generation, you know, you're a little bit older than we are, but like your generation, like, you know, Gen X and millennials, we grew up in the time in the eighties and nineties. For whatever reason, destructiveness became cool, like chaos became that punk rock ethos of like, yeah, let's get fucked up. Yeah, let's fuck things up. Let's like, let's party and drink and blackout and break something like all that, that became cool. It became like a high status thing. And it's interesting because Gen Z is not like that. Like the kids today, they're not like that. It's kind of, they've kind of flipped back to our parents' generation of, um, you know,

• 56:02Mark Manson?

  they're drinking less, they're doing fewer drugs. Yeah, like they're not, they don't, they're not huge partiers. Um, they spend more time online, but like it's interesting that the, the, the cultural

• 56:16Mark Manson?

  values, it's not destructive, like being destructive today is not cool.

• 56:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's not the

• 56:22Mark Manson?

  It's not cool at all. And it's interesting because now I look back at a lot of the stuff that my friends and I did, you know, like in a lot of ways, Jackass kind of, I feel like epitomized what every 20, 25 year old guy in the 2000s wanted to do with his buddies, but didn't have the balls to do it. Like, that's definitely like how I felt and my friends felt. And so it was just interesting watch, washing it through that lens today. I'm like, okay, yeah, this is really funny. But like, dude, why are you doing that? That fucking hurts. Like, why are you doing that?

• 56:59Speaker 02

  Right there with you. I couldn't agree with you more. I'm in bed by nine PM.

• 57:04Mark Manson?

  Yeah, dude.

• 57:08Speaker 02

  It's wild to see how things evolve like that. And I think more importantly, us.

• 57:13Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 57:13Speaker 02

  You know, and today I'm, I'm all about working smarter, not harder.

• 57:17Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 57:18Speaker 02

  You know, and, and I find, my mother used to tell me all the time, pay attention to the little things in life because one day the little things become the big things. And now everything she raised me as a child on is how I try to live my life today. You don't lie, you don't cheat, you don't steal, you don't drink, you don't drug, and nothing good happens after midnight.

• 57:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 57:42Speaker 02

  Those simple core beliefs that she tried and.

• 57:45Speaker 04

  Dude, all, all the shit they tell you when you're 10, like.

• 57:49Speaker 02

  Where I'm like, you have no fucking idea.

• 57:50Speaker 04

  It turns out it's true.

• 57:53Speaker 02

  Plot twist.

• 57:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was all, it was true all along.

• 57:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And the beautiful thing about life, and especially when you, you tap into this like inward journey, trying to better yourself.

• 58:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 58:05Speaker 02

  You know, the reason why you wrote the book, the reason why I found sobriety and tap into this source for me that was greater than me, knowing that I am not the almighty, that I am not in control of everything. The more that I know is that I have no fucking idea.

• 58:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 58:19Speaker 02

  Right? And, and this thing is so much bigger. And, and what I learned is the more I stay out of things and let life play out and take its course, the better things go.

• 58:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 58:29Speaker 02

  Which is cool because it relinquishes control.

• 58:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 58:31Speaker 02

  And I go to bed by nine. I don't want to have a full plate of things to do.

• 58:35Speaker 03

  You've mentioned your mom several times now.

• 58:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:37Speaker 03

  Um, you've mentioned important relationships in your life as well. I, I kind of have this, I guess is a theory about a certain type of addict, and I think you fall into this category, that they, they love very, very deeply. Um, I actually think that there's probably nobody who loves harder than somebody who's an addict in recovery, actually, because you just, they're, they're so appreciative of all the relationships around their life and everything like that. But you've also mentioned that drugs and alcohol, those aren't the problem, they're a solution to the problem. Is it the case that an addict such as yourself or someone like you doesn't get the love that they want? And that's what turns them into, that's what gets them so deep into this world. Is that what you're chasing? Is that the problem that you're trying

• 59:21Speaker 03

  to solve with drugs and alcohol, do you think? Or what is the problem?

• 59:23Speaker 02

  That wasn't mine.

• 59:24Speaker 03

  No?

• 59:25Speaker 02

  Right? But I do believe it is for lots, for sure. My, my story wasn't like the first time I ingested a drink or a drug. I had that white light, that aha moment that I've now found what I've been in search for. As a matter of fact, my story was quite the opposite. I never felt less than. I never felt inadequate in search of needing more. Um. And after all, my father was a drug addict. And he did some really deplorable things that that no household or child should ever have to endure. So to add a better understanding of the complexity with addiction and alcoholism, I made it a point to excel in everything that I did in life to prove why I would never become him.

• 1:00:10Speaker 02

  Right? And so, so the thought of me entering into my first treatment center, I was just like in a room full of my fathers and I'm like, fuck you. You're my father, fuck you. You think I belong, I only came to this first treatment center to prove a point to my mother and my girlfriend, why I'm not you fucking nut jobs, nor will I ever be. This was just an overreaction at best. Yeah. Just caught me at a bad time on a bad way and a bad day. Of course. Tomorrow is gonna be different and and I and I believe that tomorrow is gonna be different. But then I'd wake up tomorrow to repeat yesterday's actions and be stuck in Groundhog's Day for 22 years. Because what I didn't know then that I know now was the behaviors that led to that outcome. It wasn't the the needle in my arm or the glass of wine to my lips.

• 1:00:55Speaker 02

  So my story was like, you know, an escape, you know, I'd achieved what I wanted out of life at a young age. If I were to have died as a 15 year old skateboarder, I would have been the happiest kid to have ever walked the earth because, you know, I'd achieved my dream. I would go stay at Tony Hawk's house. You know, as a kid, and that's the equivalent to like a six year old hanging out with Santa Claus. Yeah. I I was cool, man. So, yeah, and that's, again, the reason why I wanted to share that, and that's a great question. Thank you for asking that. Because I think it's so imperative for the people listening to understand that the disease of addiction or alcoholism does not fucking discriminate. Right? It doesn't matter if you come from Yale or jail,

• 1:01:38Speaker 02

  the White House or the outhouse. It does not care about your your age, your race, your creed, your religion, your lack of religion, your account status. It does not, it knows no barriers. Right? It's all inclusive.

• 1:01:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, Rich Roll, who we had on here, you know, he was a, he was a white collar drunk is what he was, you know, but he says a lot of the same things and talks about a lot of the same things the way you do too.

• 1:02:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that's a crazy thing. Like, I don't know him, but I guarantee we, we were the same fucking people. And, and we, we took part in the same suggestions that landed to this outcome. Treatment Center number one was no different than 13, like you said earlier. They didn't say, oh, Novak, you're back. Here, here's a pill that we only give to the fucking cool guys. Get over here.

• 1:02:23Mark Manson?

  We save these for the 10th trip to rehab.

• 1:02:27Mark Manson?

  You're the elite status. It's like, it's like airline miles, like, like rehab miles.

• 1:02:35Speaker 02

  Except my upgrades just land to more like death and destruction. I fucking went about this thing called life backwards, man.

• 1:02:43Mark Manson?

  Alcoholic frequent flyer miles.

• 1:02:47Mark Manson?

  That's a billion dollar idea.

• 1:02:51Speaker 02

  Spencer fucking.

• 1:02:52Mark Manson?

  Yeah, write that down, write that down.

• 1:02:54Speaker 02

  Don't let us forget this. And then make a call, cause he'll beat us to it.

• 1:03:00Speaker 03

  So tell, tell me about your treatment centers.

• 1:03:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I'd been in enough treatment centers to know, like, what I didn't believe were beneficial about treatment centers. The funny thing is, if you haven't picked up yet, I absolutely love drugs and alcohol.

• 1:03:18Speaker 02

  There's nothing in this world that entertains me more than the notion of drugs and alcohol. But I got to a point where like, I could no longer partake in those, but I still had this fondness in my heart about them. And, and in writing these books, it was such a beautiful thing because it allowed me to go back to that place without physically like going back and, and shooting up again. And so it was very therapeutic in writing that. But I, um, my get well job was, I was washing dishes in a diner for $6 an hour. My first year out of a rehab center. And, uh, and I started to speak at some meetings and it started to make its way on social media. And this organization reached out and said, hey, we'd like to give you a job working for our treatment center.

• 1:03:58Speaker 02

  And I had no idea that world even existed. I took the job and I stayed with that place for seven years. But in that time, I had kind of built myself into a corner financially, like I wasn't going to make any more, but I'd acquired enough knowledge and, and resources and connections.

• 1:04:16Speaker 02

  The surrounding of people I kept myself with mentors that saw me what I didn't see in myself. They're like, dude, like, it's time, it's time, like, step out on faith. Get out of your comfortable zone. Put your money where your mouth is. You talk about this relationship with your spirituality and your higher power. Like, fucking walk it, don't talk it. And, and I invested everything. I took every dollar I had. I, I took a few hard money loans out. And, uh, and I put it all in. And, and that was gonna be the why in the road where it either really worked or it fucking really crippled me. Um, but my intentions were sincere and I, I created a treatment center called Redemption Addiction Treatment Center.

• 1:04:57Speaker 02

  I created it as if I were going to be a client and it would I want to sit in there. Would I want you to talk to me or run a lecture with me? I created a place that's a vibe where I hope not only the staff, but the clients feel like they want to be at. Not like they have to be at. It's the furthest thing from an institutionalized setting or vibe that you will find. It's a bunch of people like me, running a place and making recovery fun, letting them know that like sobriety is not the end of the world. It's just the beginning, but I wasn't intending on doing that. How that all started is I went to treatment for 90 days. After I completed treatment, I went to a sober living house where I lived for a year.

• 1:05:36Speaker 02

  I only went there and did that because of my mentor, my sponsor suggested that I do it because he did it and he had been sober 18 years. Wasn't trying to reinvent the wheel. I realized like my thinking's fucked up. I should probably suggest, follow suggestions of others who know more. And I lived in that house and that house bridged the gap. It, it taught me how to acclimate with this weird thing called society, which is an acquired taste anyways. Right? That's putting it lightly. Totally, right? Even for a sober person. Yeah, it's even hard for us.

• 1:06:10Speaker 02

  Like, so I had to like, learn how to brush my teeth consistently. I had to learn how to make my bed. I had to learn how to fold my clothes and put them away. I had to learn how to pay rent consecutively. And, and, and, and I learned how to become a productive member of society. And then I learned how to become a productive, taxpaying member of society. So I always vowed that when I found myself in a place where I was financially capable, I was going to recreate what worked for me. And, and I started by opening one men's sober living house called Novak's House. It was a little over three years ago, and that was one house with 10 beds. Today, we have seven houses with 70 beds. And at the rate that it was growing, um, failure not being an option, no was unacceptable.

• 1:06:52Speaker 02

  I knew that I was underestimating, but more importantly, underselling the, the good that I could provide for others. If I just stepped out on faith. So therefore, I was like, dude, I'm gonna open a fucking treatment center. And I'm gonna be involved. And that's what I love more than anything. I'm there five days a week when I'm not traveling. I run the 9 a.m. group every day. I work with the clients individually and like, that's, that's the why.

• 1:07:17Mark Manson?

  Wow.

• 1:07:18Speaker 02

  That's, that's what makes me happy.

• 1:07:20Mark Manson?

  That's amazing, man.

• 1:07:21Speaker 02

  So now, I'm just as consumed as I was before with drugs and alcohol. The only difference is, is that I don't use them and they provide me a really beautiful, peaceful life.

• 1:07:31Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:31Speaker 02

  If that's not a mindfuck, I don't know what is.

• 1:07:34Speaker 04

  No shit, yeah.

• 1:07:35Speaker 02

  And it's called Redemption Addiction Treatment Center. So if you too would like to come hang out with a sick fuck like me and it makes sense, and overcome these ailments that you may have, call us. 610-314-6747.

• 1:07:48Mark Manson?

  We'll do, we'll do a little Chiron at the bottom.

• 1:07:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:53Mark Manson?

  But wait, there's more.

• 1:07:55Speaker 02

  You too can be upgraded.

• 1:07:57Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 1:07:59Speaker 02

  You guys are rad, man.

• 1:08:02Mark Manson?

  Check in the rehab five times, get the sixth time free.

• 1:08:06Speaker 02

  This is turning into such a terrible infomercial. I swear I'm seeing it's not a sham. This is not a late night fucking cracked out commercial.

• 1:08:15Speaker 02

  My recovery should be fun, man. Life's already tough enough as it is. And people underestimate the power of a smile. Yeah. I say that, I preach that, I live that. Yeah. Right? Like a smile can literally change the, someone's future. Forever. God forbid someone told me my mother died and you had the ability to put a smile on my face. I could, that, that's worth its weight in gold. I couldn't put a price tag on that. Yeah. So I don't give a fuck if you laugh at me or with me. Just smile, man. Yeah.

• 1:08:43Speaker 03

  You talk a lot in the books too about all the little things people did for you along the way and how much those meant.

• 1:08:48Speaker 02

  Dude.

• 1:08:48Speaker 03

  That's part of that too, yeah.

• 1:08:49Speaker 02

  It is, man. There was such a game changer when I was in an emergency room for an overdose, which was like a weekly occurrence. And usually the, the protocol would be the nurse would come up to the bed, the discharging nurse. She'd say, okay, what's your name? What's your address? What are you using? How long have you been using? What's your discharge plan? That was the, I could recite it in my sleep, right? The day everything changed when this woman named Ms. Ruth, she came up to the same gurney as always. But I had never had this woman and she came up to me and I'm expecting, I have the answers ready, locked and loaded. Let's speed this process up. And she fucked me up. She said, sweetheart, how are you feeling?

• 1:09:34Speaker 02

  And that, right? I was so dehumanized. I was so desensitized from humanity. That like someone genuinely cared about how I felt.

• 1:09:48Speaker 02

  And although I didn't care about how I felt, through her believing in how I felt, made me believe in like how I felt. And I told the truth. I didn't read off the fucking, the script of, here's my address. This is what I'm on. I'd really like to be discharged with 10 Percocets and a bottle of methadone. You know, I told the truth. Yeah. And that made me feel like worthy. So you're right, those, those brief periods where people saw past how I presented myself to the heartbeat within.

• 1:10:22Speaker 02

  Made me believe in humanity.

• 1:10:24Mark Manson?

  It's like little life preservers.

• 1:10:26Speaker 02

  It really was and and thank God for the Miss Ruths out there. So I make it a point to like really just each day try to do a little bit better than I did yesterday. And and hold a door open, do a nice act for a person without anybody knowing.

• 1:10:42Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:43Speaker 02

  Ultra, you know, altruistic and just genuinely.

• 1:10:46Mark Manson?

  Last questions, we ask every guest this.

• 1:10:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:49Mark Manson?

  What do you give too many fucks about today?

• 1:10:51Speaker 02

  Today, what do I give too many fucks about?

• 1:10:58Speaker 02

  What people think of me?

• 1:10:59Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I do. I know it doesn't come across like that at times, but genuinely when I leave here, I'll be very concerned with did I deliver something that they were hoping to get? Right? Did I not waste their time? Will the viewers want to listen? Will I continue to to bring value to what they've worked so hard on?

• 1:11:23Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:23Speaker 02

  I, you know, I'm my biggest critic. Uh, so I, but the cool thing is I don't live in that too long.

• 1:11:30Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:30Speaker 02

  I have this awareness.

• 1:11:32Mark Manson?

  Do you think, so all it's funny because as a guy who, uh, you know, the pill Collins himself. Nudie Novak.

• 1:11:40Speaker 02

  But you'd be like, dude, if you want to get a reference.

• 1:11:43Mark Manson?

  Uh, it's, it's that maybe would be the last answer I'd expect, but so do you think all those antics, all the craziness, you know, running around naked? You know, blowing yourself up on Jackass, is that like a defense mechanism? Is that like a, if I'm, if I'm wild and crazy, people don't see the real me?

• 1:12:02Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 1:12:03Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:03Speaker 02

  For sure. Um, I, I go on a lot of spiritual, um, retreats.

• 1:12:08Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:08Speaker 02

  And and I've had some major breakthroughs. And, uh, the last one I had, which was really mind blowing is that, um, vulnerability is a big thing for me.

• 1:12:22Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:22Speaker 02

  And I can come and I can be extremely overly vulnerable to like strangers and and and do insane things.

• 1:12:30Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:31Speaker 02

  But like, God forbid, we have a personal connection or relationship and I have to like, really show you who I am and work through these. Relationships are the thing I'm the least good at. And it's the last thing I've addressed. Why? Because it's the hardest thing in my life. Financially, mentally, spiritually, physically, I'm aces. Yeah. But in relationships, I clearly could do a lot better. Yeah. And I know that. And I imagine that when the pain gets great enough in that place, it will, it will allow me to do what I had never done, which is, you know, I am a product of therapy. I have a therapist, I seek the therapist, but then COVID happened. I also

• 1:13:13Speaker 02

  don't have a laptop. I'm the most computer illiterate person in the world. I wrote my book on pen and paper, my first one. No shit. Um, and then once they wanted to switch to Zoom, I just faded off. And I don't, I don't even have a laptop. I don't own a laptop. I don't email. I kind of envy that. People do one of two things, like, how the fuck have you made it this far? Or? Yeah, or I'm kind of jealous. I'm a little jealous, just a little bit. Yeah, totally. So, um, I got my first ever laptop during COVID. Not by my design. My team was like, you're gonna need this. I used it five times and I gave it away. But, you know, and now I'm, relationships are areas I need to work on. And I'll get back into that at some point. Yeah. You know, but for sure, vulnerability. Cool. Great call there. What do you give too few fucks about?

• 1:13:59Speaker 02

  Um, what do I give too few fucks about? Uh, other people's feelings. How my behaviors can affect others. Interesting. Right? But, cause, but you know, when it comes back to it, the core of my disease is that I'm selfish and I'm self-centered. Yeah. So it's usually even before sobriety, me, me, me, me, me. And if I have two seconds to spare, you. But only if it's gonna benefit me. Yeah. But then I get into, to recovery and selfishly, I really love my freedom, which is why I'm a 46-year-old, single man who lives with three cats. Because if I want to get on a plane and fly to, uh, Spain to skate, I can do that. Yeah. And, and if there's someone that's connected romantically in my life, I've been

• 1:14:42Speaker 02

  known to not take their feelings or how my actions will affect them, which is why I'm single again. Coming back to the, you know, resentment is.

• 1:14:50Mark Manson?

  You know, the entry point for relapse. That is the ultimate danger of intimate relationships is the closer you get to somebody, the more of an emotional effect that they have on you and the easier it is to resent them for something. And so do you, do you think those two things are related? Like, cause it's obviously you should be very protective of your sobriety and anything that could potentially complicate that. Like, do you see a connection there? Or am I just making shit up?

• 1:15:20Speaker 02

  No, I don't think you're making things up. Um, and, but I also don't know if my answer here is going to be the sincere truth or me just justifying my behaviors of avoiding doing the work that's necessary to get the answers I'm looking for.

• 1:15:33Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:34Speaker 02

  Right. But I understand that it's mind is so powerful. I might not be able to decipher that.

• 1:15:38Mark Manson?

  It could also be both.

• 1:15:39Speaker 02

  True, totally. But I also read recently that the magic that we're looking for is in the work that we're avoiding.

• 1:15:45Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 1:15:45Speaker 02

  And if I look back on that, absolutely true.

• 1:15:48Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:48Speaker 02

  Throughout everything in my life. But, um, prior to sobriety, I always had a woman in my life. Right? And, and it wasn't for this egotistical, like, look at me, I'm the man. I didn't know it then. I genuinely loved them. I was engaged twice and I always had long lasting relationships with, I always had the wherewithal to get a woman that was not like me. Really, I couldn't deal with me. Two of us, we'd go to hell in a handbasket. So I'd get like a really good woman who presented well, complete opposite of me, who could keep things afloat. So it was really like a self sufficient thing. I could get a house, I couldn't keep a home. Um, I, I could get money, I couldn't keep money. So, so they would really show up for me in that way and I love them. But the common theme of my story then is I would just continue to drink or drug, or I would cheat, which

• 1:16:34Speaker 02

  both of them kind of go hand in hand. So they ultimately, they'd have to leave me. But then when I got sober, I started to like work on myself. I started to like myself. I started to love myself. I became self sufficient and realized. I don't have to rely or depend on anybody. And now that I love like me and being with me, I've, I've really taken advantage of that.

• 1:16:55Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:56Speaker 02

  But so much so that that gift may have become a curse because now I'm a forty six year old fucking man who lives with a house full of cats. And I don't like my routines to be disrupted.

• 1:17:05Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:06Speaker 02

  I'm becoming that weird old cat man. But I'm okay with that.

• 1:17:10Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:10Speaker 02

  Is it that I'm okay with that or is it that I'm avoiding the work? Because I'm gonna have to endure some really vulnerable situations that I don't like because it takes me back to traumatic experiences that I, I have to relive that my father would endure to us as a kid.

• 1:17:25Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:25Speaker 02

  Because there's a lot of, and I, I know I'm aware of it. I, I just don't know. I haven't dug deep enough yet.

• 1:17:32Mark Manson?

  Well, it also might be one of those. It'll happen when you're ready.

• 1:17:37Speaker 02

  So as.

• 1:17:38Mark Manson?

  As everything does.

• 1:17:40Speaker 02

  If you haven't picked up on that yet here.

• 1:17:43Mark Manson?

  There's a running theme here.

• 1:17:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:45Mark Manson?

  Well, Brandon, this genuinely was fantastic. So thank you for coming by.

• 1:17:49Speaker 02

  I thoroughly enjoyed this voice. I really did.

• 1:17:52Speaker 03

  I would say too, your, your books, you talked about how uh, understanding addiction from like the scientific academic way. Your books, I'm not just trying to hawk your shit either. Like it gave me a new understanding of what the way addicts think and understanding addiction. So anybody who just, they should go out and get your, these books.

• 1:18:07Speaker 02

  That was the goal.

• 1:18:08Speaker 03

  Joe Franz wrote them and yeah. Like you could really get inside the mind of, of people. So.

• 1:18:12Speaker 02

  Hey, thank you.

• 1:18:13Speaker 03

  That in itself was very valuable to me. Yeah.

• 1:18:15Speaker 02

  And I also did the narration for it. So if you'd like me to, to talk you to sleep. Right? You can listen to me. I'll tuck you in and off.

• 1:18:23Mark Manson?

  I have a feeling that you, these are not bedtime books, folks. Uh, I don't recommend.

• 1:18:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, but that was the goal, man. I wanted people to see that like, you know, this can happen to anyone. And I wanted the reader to feel like they were in my shoes.

• 1:18:40Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:40Speaker 02

  I read, uh, the, the book that inspired that book was, um, James Frey, A Million Little Pieces.

• 1:18:46Mark Manson?

  I love that book.

• 1:18:47Speaker 02

  He's become a dear friend of mine. That book was given to me, um, during the peak of my addiction. And I read it and I loved it because it was just focused on drugs and alcohol.

• 1:18:56Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:56Speaker 02

  And that's a place in my heart. But little did I know, later on down the road, when I was given this ultimatum by Bam, because he loved my stories and he believed I should write a book that I would use his outline to create my first book. I love books. I love reading. I loved yours too, man.

• 1:19:11Mark Manson?

  Thank you, dude. I appreciate that.

• 1:19:12Speaker 02

  You guys are good people, man. I enjoyed this.

• 1:19:14Mark Manson?

  Thanks, dude. Yeah, thanks for coming down. Yeah, thanks for coming in. It is funny that it's one of those things I did not plan or expect, but like when the book really took off about five or six years ago, I started hearing from a lot of 12-step groups, a lot of organizers and stuff, just people emailing me, you know, saying like, hey, everybody in our local group like read your book. It's super helpful. So that's been a real joy and a pleasure. Like as an author, you don't know what nooks and crannies your book's gonna

• 1:19:44Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 1:19:45Mark Manson?

  get into and you don't know which people it's gonna resonate with. And so that's been like a real, a real joy to see that because, you know, I have, I come from a family with addicts and, you know, I see the effect it has on people, so.

• 1:19:59Speaker 02

  It's a beautiful thing, man.

• 1:20:00Mark Manson?

  Yeah, cool. I think that's a wrap.

• 1:20:06Mark Manson?

  Tell us. Yes.

• 1:20:10Mark Manson?

  The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck Podcast is produced by Drew Burney. It's edited by Andrew Nishimura. Jessica Choi is our videographer and sound engineer. Thank you for listening and we will see you next week.