6 Ways to Stop Giving a F*ck

We all wish we gave fewer f*cks in our lives, but wanting to and doing it are two different things. If you've read my book, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck, then you know that not giving a f*ck doesn't mean you don't care about anything—it means deliberately choosing what you give a f*ck about and ignore the rest. In this episode, we dive into the realities of not giving f*ck, the good and the bad. We talk about why there will never be a time when you're completely free from judgement by others. Why being "normal"—whatever that means—is not something to aspire to, nor is wanting to be liked by everyone. How criticism is a part of life you can't escape—but not all criticism is created equal. And a whole lot more. Check it out. CHAPTERS Chapters 00:00:00 Mark goes to Europe and previews upcoming videos 00:05:10 If you wouldn't ask them for advice, then f*ck their criticism. 00:13:20 People will judge your for whatever you do or don't do. F*ck the people, do the thing. 00:22:55 To be liked by all is to be loved by none. 00:28:44 F*ck being normal. 00:37:30 Your vanity and anxiety are both liars. 00:42:42 You must give a f*ck about something more than the adversity you face. ⇨ Sign up for my newsletter, Your Next Breakthrough. It will help make you a less awful person: ⁠⁠⁠⁨https://markmanson.net/breakthrough⁩⁠⁠⁠ ⇨ Get clarity on what actually matters. Try Purpose, Mark's AI mentor app that learns your patterns, challenges your blind spots, and helps you take action. Get started at ⁠⁠⁠⁨https://bit.ly/4w46FMH⁠⁠⁠ FOLLOW MARK Mark's IG: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/markmanson⁠ Solved IG: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/solvedpodcast/⁠ Twitter: ⁠https://x.com/markmanson⁠ LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/markmanson/⁠ YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@IAmMarkManson

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mark Manson?

  So funny thing, I was just in Budapest and they lost a third of their territory after World War I. And they they're still upset about it 100 years later, even people our age. And they call it a national trauma, like they use the word trauma. And it's like, if you stop a random person in Hungary on the street and you mention the the Trionon Pact, they understand it as a trauma. It like raises this interesting question of like, can a nation experience trauma? I mean, I know we're like, we're in this era now where everything is trauma and there's like, there's like repressed trauma and intergenerational trauma and and cultural trauma and people trauma, ethnic trauma. Can there be a national trauma, Drew?

• 0:43Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 0:44Mark Manson?

  And why is

• 0:44Speaker 01

  Collective.

• 0:45Mark Manson?

  And why is that a trauma? And why isn't like, I don't know, like you don't hear? Like, we don't talk in the US, we don't talk about the civil war as like a trauma.

• 0:53Speaker 01

  Not anymore.

• 0:54Mark Manson?

  Yeah, maybe. I don't know.

• 0:55Speaker 01

  Has it been long enough? I don't know. So Budapest itself, I mean, Hungary lost territory during during World War I.

• 1:01Mark Manson?

  Hungary lost over a third of its territory during World War I and two thirds of its population.

• 1:08Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 1:08Mark Manson?

  And like 80% of its natural resources.

• 1:11Speaker 01

  That is pretty traumatic for a small country, I would say.

• 1:13Mark Manson?

  Yeah, right? So the reason I bring this up.

• 1:16Speaker 01

  Where are you going with this, please?

• 1:19Mark Manson?

  I was just in Europe.

• 1:20Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:21Mark Manson?

  We just did two YouTube videos. We shot one in Hungary and we shot one in Portugal. The one in Hungary is Hungary is the most alcoholics in the world per capita.

• 1:29Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah.

• 1:29Mark Manson?

  22% of the adult population is clinically

• 1:32Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:33Mark Manson?

  diagnosable as an alcoholic in Hungary. We did a YouTube video there investigating that, like, what are the the historical reasons and cultural reasons? And then we went to Portugal. Portugal is actually technically the most anxious country in the world. Has the highest diagnoses of generalized anxiety disorder in the world and has for like 30 or 40 years.

• 1:51Speaker 01

  That kind of surprises me. I don't know. I've been to Portugal. It's a lovely country.

• 1:54Mark Manson?

  Surprised me too.

• 1:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56Mark Manson?

  It like when you, when you think of Portugal, you you associate it with like clean beaches and like sipping a cappuccino on a beautiful cafe on a sunny day and like

• 2:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, Portuguese are like all.

• 2:09Mark Manson?

  Worked up.

• 2:10Speaker 01

  I didn't, I saw very few like homeless people in poverty. I didn't see a whole lot of that. Maybe that was just, I was in the tourist areas or whatever. I don't know, but that, that surprises me.

• 2:18Mark Manson?

  It was interesting doing both of these. So for listeners, these, both of these videos will be, they're, they're gonna be like mini documentaries that are gonna be posted on the YouTube channel. Hungary was like, I kinda went into it. I'd read about their history. Obviously, they were like, controlled by the Soviet Union for fifty, sixty years. That clearly is gonna fuck you up pretty well. So like Hungary, I, I was like, I kinda had a sense of like what was going on. Portugal, it was a complete surprise. I kinda went in with a few hypotheses. You know, it's the poorest country in Western Europe, a lot of unemployment, cost of living issues,

• 2:54Mark Manson?

  a lot of brain drain, but uh, there's definitely a plot twist there. It was, it was one of those situations where it was like, once I was on the ground there talking to psychiatrists and psychologists, learning from, from the local people that, that a different conclusion came up.

• 3:12Speaker 01

  Any clues to that, or are you gonna, you're gonna keep it close to your chest?

• 3:15Mark Manson?

  Cliffhanger. It's not what you would expect. It's not what you, I, I think it's, the most obvious thing that people would look at is, is some sort of economic issue, but it's uh,

• 3:26Mark Manson?

  Portugal's a curveball. But it was fun, you know, got to meet up with some listeners and readers while I was out there. You know, I guess just like trying to help Portuguese give fewer fucks and came back last week, saw you had on the docket an episode about not giving a fuck. I'm gonna be honest, I like didn't even look at this outline. I guess you could say I didn't give a fuck about this episode, but in my defense, in my defense, I, I've done approximately eighteen thousand interviews about not giving a fuck.

• 4:00Speaker 01

  That's true. I think you've prepared for this one. You literally wrote the book on this one too.

• 4:04Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I get it. But the name of the podcast is The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck, and we haven't done an episode.

• 4:10Mark Manson?

  It is true.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  In nearly eight or nine months.

• 4:11Mark Manson?

  It is true. Well, I'm hoping that we touch on some new angles. Let me say this, we're not just gonna rehash the book.

• 4:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 4:19Mark Manson?

  We're gonna bring some fresh takes and some new angles to, to the, how to approach not giving a fuck. And so I guess this is more like the, the keys to not giving a fuck or

• 4:33Mark Manson?

  tools that can help you give fewer fucks in. Take it easier in life.

• 4:37Speaker 01

  A little bit of how to.

• 4:39Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 4:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:39Mark Manson?

  More of a how to and less of, less philosophical.

• 4:42Speaker 01

  Great, great. Well, yeah, so I gathered like a bunch from like things you posted on social media or conversations that we've had or little things from the book too that I'd like you to expand on.

• 4:52Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, if we want to, we can just jump right into this.

• 4:55Mark Manson?

  Let's do it.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  All right.

• 4:56Mark Manson?

  I feel like the kid who, who is like showed up to the exam without studying. So I'm like, but I'm confident.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  I think you'll be all right. You're, you're, you're the professor at this point.

• 5:06Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 5:06Speaker 01

  You're the student. So let's jump right in. So this first one I found, if you wouldn't ask them for advice, then fuck their criticism.

• 5:14Mark Manson?

  Oh, hell yeah. So this is funny because it's, you know, over the years, I've talked to so many people. Like I, if, if I was to, to like informally create a, a spreadsheet of all the things that people complained that they give too many fucks about over the years. Obviously what other people think is probably number one. It's like top of that list. It's just almost everybody who comes to me with a, I'm giving too many fucks problem. It is some permutation of I, I care way too much what this person thinks or that person thinks, or what this group of people is going to think. And I, I just find it, I've, I, over the years, I couldn't help but notice a pattern in that.

• 5:57Mark Manson?

  It's like, we tend to strangely, we disproportionately care what people we don't respect think versus the people that we love and respect. Like my, my wife and I, we joke all the time. And I, I think a lot of married couples will relate to this and that like, like she and I will give each other advice. And we're like, eh, what do you know? But then it's like, well, like, well, like, you know, like a month later, she'll, she'll be like, like listening to a podcast or walking, watching a documentary. And it's like some professor at Harvard, like gives her the exact same, says the exact same thing that I said. And then she's like, oh my God, that's so true. I can't believe I never thought of that before. And I'm like, what the fuck? I was telling you this a month ago.

• 6:39Mark Manson?

  There's some weird thing where it's like, the closer people are to us and the more intimacy that we feel with them, we, we like. Somehow we like take them for granted. Maybe it's because we feel so secure in the relationship. It doesn't eat at us. This like need to earn their approval or avoid their judgment or, you know, be right all the time. But it's like the people who we kind of think are dicks and who kind of treat us poorly, that we feel this like constant need to impress them or win their approval over. And so it's, it's this weird paradoxical thing that I think just is a natural component of human psychology that we disproportionately get obsessed with like earning the approval of people that don't really deserve our time and attention.

• 7:21Mark Manson?

  And, and so I, I, I really like that line. I feel like it just crystallizes the, kind of the absurdity of the situation. Like if you wouldn't ask them for advice, then why the fuck do you care about their criticism? I don't know. Have you ever experienced that?

• 7:38Speaker 01

  Oh, definitely. Yeah, I think, I think there might be a little bit of negativity bias that creeps in there. Like you, because people you don't know as well, or even don't respect as much are much more likely to come at you with like a negative.

• 7:50Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  Uh, criticism or something like that. Right? So our brains are just wired for that negativity bias to put more weight onto that.

• 7:57Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  I think that's part of it. I don't know. Whereas, you know, somebody who's closer to you is going to at least soften the blow a little bit or.

• 8:03Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 8:04Mark Manson?

  Or maybe there's confidence of like, even if they disagree with the thing that you're doing, they, they still love you and care about you. I don't know. It's funny because there's like, there's a person in my life right now who understands nothing about my life or my profession or my job. And, and this person is like, said some things to me recently that like really grinded my gears and it's like, it's been eating at me for months. And it's so funny because I'm like, it's, it's the one person in my life who like arguably understands the least about what I'm doing, whose comments that I'm like the most upset about. Like it's, it's their comment that I'm thinking about three months later. And I'm like, I'm going to prove them like, maybe if I do this, then they'll understand. Right? Maybe the, the motivation is less about.

• 8:50Mark Manson?

  The approval and just like this desire to be understood. At least this is how I experience it most often is it's like. I feel like if people like the people who criticize me, it's like if they just understood what I understood.

• 9:04Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:05Mark Manson?

  Then they wouldn't feel that way.

• 9:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:07Mark Manson?

  Then they'd be a little bit more compassionate or their criticism would be more constructive or they'd be more helpful and. But you just realistically, you're never going to make everybody understand what you understand like that's just part of life is that. A significant proportion of people are just never going to understand.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  Well, okay, so but this person in your life, does it do they have they put themselves out there, have they? Um, or is this just kind of a random person? Uh, or have they actually done something where it's like their criticism? Actually does count in a way because there's that whole like Teddy Roosevelt man in the arena, right? He gave that whole speech like basically saying, don't give a fuck about what anybody says.

• 9:45Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 9:46Speaker 01

  Especially if they're not putting their ass on the line.

• 9:48Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 9:48Speaker 01

  Is this person at least worthy of of a few fucks given or not?

• 9:52Mark Manson?

  This person has done. Really notable things and is like it is an impressive person.

• 9:57Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 9:58Mark Manson?

  It's just that they've done it in a different arena.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  Okay, gotcha.

• 10:01Mark Manson?

  And I think maybe what what grates on me is that they like. There I feel their judgment when I when I don't think they understand what arena I'm in.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  That I can identify with. If it's somebody who hasn't put their ass on the line, then I'm just like, yeah, whatever.

• 10:17Mark Manson?

  Well, another example, so basically like the first 10 years of my career.

• 10:24Mark Manson?

  My my parents, two of my parents, two of my three parents were very critical of my career choices and and did not hide that.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:33Mark Manson?

  And and I, in my opinion, they were very condescending about it and diminished the things that I was doing. And at the time it drove me fucking crazy and it was actually very motivating because it was like, I'm going to show them like, well, if I do this, then then now I'll show them and it like. I got caught in that cycle of trying to win approval, which is kind of a double edged sword. It like it can motivate a lot of action, but it's like motivated by a bad intention. So it it just ends up making you feel worse. But it's funny because it's like now that that's not an issue, I look back in that time. And like, this is classic shit. This is like classic stuff like my stepmom being like, why don't you put on a suit and go get a real job? Like, because she just didn't know what a blog was. That's really what it boiled down to is like, she didn't understand what blogging was in 2012 and

• 11:18Mark Manson?

  how you could sell a course online. Like, completely understandable why she would be critical because she didn't understand what I was doing. And, but at the time, it just like, it fucking ate at me. Like, it, it, it would really spin me up and trigger me and, yeah, bring out all sorts of expletives over Thanksgiving dinner.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  But, yeah. I, I, I get it though. I think it's just, there's, um, there are a lot, especially with people now, you know, you have a platform to stand on and, and shout. And people are gonna react to that, but it's just like, what, who are you listening to? Who are you? Who are you letting, letting into that space where it's gonna be like, I actually do give a fuck about this? And that's a, a really hard thing. Again, going back to negativity bias, that's gonna be most, what's gonna weigh the most on you is gonna be kind of just the negative shitty things that people say and do.

• 12:12Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 12:14Mark Manson?

  Yeah. It's funny. I mean, it's, it's, this is one of those questions that I don't have an answer to. Like, it, it never goes away. You just get better at dealing with it.

• 12:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:24Mark Manson?

  Cause it's like, now, it's like, like this person in my life now, it's funny, cause it's like, I, I see the game that my brain is playing. Like, I think 10 years ago, I get all wrapped up into it and start like obsessing. Now it's just kinda like, oh yeah, this, like, the things this person said are like eating at me. And so now I just kinda try, try to channel that productively, like, use that as motivation. Not like, I'm gonna show him, but like, just the, like, okay, yeah, I'm a little pissed, so like, let's go do something with that.

• 12:53Mark Manson?

  So I think I've matured in, in the sense that I'm like, I'm not as, I'm much more conscious and aware of that dynamic as it goes on. But that dynamic has not gone away.

• 13:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:02Mark Manson?

  Despite all of my success and experience and writing and studying and researching,

• 13:11Mark Manson?

  I'm still a fucking monkey with like.

• 13:16Mark Manson?

  Wanting to, you know, win the banana.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  It's not going away, which is highly, highly related to this next one I had down, which is, people will judge you for whatever you do. People will judge you for whatever you don't do, so fuck the people and do the thing.

• 13:30Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  It's not going away.

• 13:31Mark Manson?

  Right. Wait, so this is, yeah, this is another interesting way to look at this. Is that, again, this fear of judgment, if you do something, well, there's gonna be a judgment if you don't do it as well. Like, there's a judgment no matter what you do or don't do. So like, judgment is just, like, I think the trap that people fall into is they assume that judgment is something that you can avoid. Like, there's a, there's a world where you are not judged by anybody, ever, for anything. That you, you find the perfect people who love you perfectly and always, like, always agree with everything you do. Like, that, that world does not exist, that's a fantasy land. Uh, so, judgment is a permanent state of your existence.

• 14:15Mark Manson?

  Whether you are being actively exposed to that judgment or not, like, makes little difference. So you might as well be judged for the things that you find important and worthy. And this ties back into one of, you know, one of the, the main points of, of subtle art, or in the first chapter of subtle art, is that like, the key to not giving a fuck about adversity is giving a fuck about something more important than adversity. And I think this is, this is ultimately like what holds so many people back in this area is that they, they get so caught up on, on, on just not experiencing the judgment, that they don't think about like, what's worth being judged for? What are the things in my life that, I don't care how many people judge me for it, I'm still gonna do it because it's that important to me. It's, I care that much about it. I think that's actually the question that people should be asking.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  Right. And, and I don't think, like, this, this happened for me, actually when I came to work for you, I've told you this story before, but, um, you know, I was in the middle of this PhD program, there's a very set path to go. Then you came along and ruined my life, and...

• 15:13Mark Manson?

  Continue to ruin it today.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  Continue to ruin it to this day. No, but there were, I mean, there were a number of people around me who basically thought that, hey, you're ruining your life here. What are you doing? Because again, this was 2014.

• 15:25Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  What the hell's a blog? And how do you make money with it? And how's this guy gonna pay you? There were a lot of people, you know, the, the head of the grad, um, the graduate studies, she sat me down and was like, are you okay? What's going on? What happened to you?

• 15:38Speaker 01

  And to me though, it was just so, I was like, yes, this was so self evident to me that, no, this was the right thing to do. So I think you're right. I think you have to, you have to figure out or be in the right space to where you do know exactly what you give a fuck about.

• 15:52Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  In this, in this situation to be able to be like, I don't care what you think. I just didn't care.

• 15:57Mark Manson?

  It's also realizing, like, I bet a lot of those people who tried to talk to you. It, it's funny because my wife went through the same thing. Like when my wife decided to leave Brazil and start traveling, like a bunch of her friends sat her down. They're like, because she quit her job, quit her career, all this stuff. So like a bunch of her friends sat her down. They're like, where are you going with this American guy? Like, how does he make money? Like, what's a blog?

• 16:19Mark Manson?

  But it's interesting because I think a lot of those people in those situations, their, their judgment is actually more about them than it is about you.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 16:26Mark Manson?

  Right? Because it's like, they're struggling with the PhD program. They are, uh, heavily invested mentally and emotionally into it, but also maybe have some doubts, maybe are second guessing themselves, maybe, um, wishing certain things, certain sacrifices in their life weren't being made. And then they see you just picking up and leaving and, and like, that's scary because it's like, well, if he can do it, what's stopping me?

• 16:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 16:54Mark Manson?

  What's my, like, what's keeping me here? And, and it forces them to ask difficult questions about themselves.

• 16:59Speaker 01

  That's a hundred percent what I saw.

• 17:01Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:01Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 17:02Speaker 01

  I, I, there were, there were, it was funny though, because there were several people, like my parents, they were like, yeah, go for it.

• 17:08Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 17:09Speaker 01

  That's cool. So, which they've always been like that. So I'm very lucky in that, in that regard. But it was, the peer pressure around it was palpable, but yet at the end of the day, I was just like, I knew, I just knew whatever it was. So I don't know, is there a way to get to that? Do you think there's a way to get to that space? Or to me, it just, I didn't even have to think about it.

• 17:25Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  At that, at that time. And so I don't know, I think that's, that's maybe harder where it's, it's hard to find that kind of clarity, I think, for a lot of people.

• 17:36Mark Manson?

  I mean, I, I think what you're talking about is conviction.

• 17:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:39Mark Manson?

  And. Conviction is a hard thing to find, but it's, I mean, from what I've found true in my life is like,

• 17:50Mark Manson?

  like, there's this great Peter Thiel question where he says, like, every founder or CEO that he talks to that like, comes to him for an investment, like, the first question he asks him, he says, like, what do you believe is true about the world that most people don't? And I like, I love that question so much because I think as a creative person, just as a writer, I find that that generally leads me to the most interesting topics and the most important topics. But on a personal level, I feel like that, that's where conviction comes from. Because it's easy, it's easy to believe in things that everybody else believes in. Like, everybody believes a PhD program is valuable, right?

• 18:28Mark Manson?

  So it's easy to believe that, and, and the fact that you believe it doesn't, it doesn't carry any weight or significance with it. It's very difficult to, to think that a PhD program maybe doesn't have a lot of value to it. And like, to do that, you have to search for evidence and principles on your own and do the reasoning on your own and become convinced of the reasoning on your own. And I guess that process of like doing it on your own rather than relying on the opinions of others. It is more difficult, but it generates more conviction once it's done successfully.

• 19:01Speaker 01

  I got you, yeah.

• 19:01Mark Manson?

  And like, what I have found in my career is that I, I will often investigate things that are very contrarian and like, you know, everybody believes the opposite, let me look at this thing. And nine times out of 10, there's nothing there. It's like, okay, well, everybody believes the opposite for a good reason. But that one time out of 10, you, you actually do like, okay, the crowd's missing something here. And, and if you can like, generate enough evidence there, like, it becomes a very powerful thing.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  I had several years to stop and think about it. So it wasn't like this was just, it fell upon me and I was highly convicted. It, it took a while, but I, I got to that point, yeah.

• 19:39Mark Manson?

  I went to, I went through a thing to a lesser extent when I started, started my online businesses. Cause all my university friends went into the corporate world. And it was funny because I mean, it wasn't as explicit like nobody like pulled me aside and was like, what the fuck are you doing? But I noticed it's like I kind of stopped getting invited to things.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:57Mark Manson?

  Uh, you know, it was like conversations and like I started getting left out of conversations or like certain questions that people would ask each other. They stopped asking me, you know?

• 20:11Mark Manson?

  So yeah, you, you like, it tests you for sure, but it's like, I, I think this is important, like

• 20:18Mark Manson?

  the, thi- this comes back to, to that first point of, of like, what are you willing to be judged for? I think when you find something that you have high conviction in, that is maybe not a, a popular path or a popular belief. The fact that you get judged for it, like that, that testing of it, I think is actually important and makes it feel more meaningful. Like I take a lot of pride in the, a lot of, in the things that I've done because people thought I was kind of crazy when I started, like that's actually what makes it feel more meaningful and powerful on the other side of it. Whereas I feel, again, I feel like if you're just always

• 21:01Mark Manson?

  following what everybody else says and thinks and does, you're not going to have that, that feeling of, of purpose and reward at the end, or not, not to the same extent.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  Definitely. Yeah. A hundred percent. I'd like, I use it as a badge of honor too.

• 21:14Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 21:14Speaker 01

  It's like, yeah, I'm not, and I think I've always kind of been like that too. And even when I was younger, I was like, I'm not going to be like everybody else around me.

• 21:20Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 21:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:21Mark Manson?

  Yeah. I guess, but there is a cost to that, right? So it's like,

• 21:25Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 21:25Mark Manson?

  You get to, you get to feel a little bit more significance and meaning when, you know, when things turn out well. But when things don't turn out well, you look like an idiot and also like it's isolating, right? So it's like, when you're on the same path with a bunch of other people, you have the added benefit of like a sense of community. You're in a, in a thing together. There are other people who understand what you're going through. When you, when you choose the thing that most people aren't doing,

• 21:53Mark Manson?

  there's a, there's a certain amount of isolation that comes with that.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  Well, this next one, which is to be liked by all is to be loved by none.

• 21:59Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 21:59Speaker 01

  I think that's where we're starting to get at, right?

• 22:01Mark Manson?

  This reminds me of like, I had this concept and, and models, my dating book about polarization. So in the context of dating, like one of the, one of the points I made in that book is that, is that attraction is polarizing. So like anything that's attractive is polarizing. So like you can't If you're middle of the road in every way in life, like there's nothing attractive about you. Like the thing, the things that make an individual attractive to some people will make them unattractive to others. And so you actually want to paradoxically like lean into those polarizing things about you, which tend to be like very identity and personality based.

• 22:40Mark Manson?

  And they will immediately turn off a large percentage of people, but they will also turn on a lot, large percentage of people. And I think this is just true in life in general. It's definitely true in business, like the company that tries to make a product that everybody will like is usually ends up making a product. Nobody likes, like it's just this blah generic commodity. Like, like the only things that everybody likes are commodities, you know? Anything that is unique, distinct, adds a significant amount of value to like one group of people is probably pissing off another group. In some, some way or form. And actually those two things are generally proportional. Like the more a thing is loved by one group, the more it's generally hated by another.

• 23:22Mark Manson?

  And I think, you know, again, this comes back to people not wanting to be disliked, people not wanting to be judged, people not wanting to be hated. Like they don't, they don't understand that as you protect yourself from the negative social reactions, you are limiting your positive social reactions. As you limit your negative feelings on the, on the things that you're doing, you're also putting a ceiling on the positive things that you can do. So it's, it's like, and again, finding that important thing in the world that you're, you're, you're willing to be judged for. It's like, what's the thing you're willing to be hated for? What's the thing that it's like? You know is right. And if people don't understand it, you're still willing to do it.

• 24:06Mark Manson?

  And it's hard to find that thing. And most of us like rarely have many of those things in our lives. But when you have it like it, it's super, super important and you really need to. Go all in on it.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you've said you have a really good quote around this that we've you've used for a long time, which is if you want to be a powerful life changing force.

• 24:26Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  For some people, you have to be willing to be a joke and embarrassment to everybody else.

• 24:30Mark Manson?

  Yeah, right. I think that I think the line is it's impossible to be a life changing presence to some people without being a joke and embarrassment to others.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 24:38Mark Manson?

  Which is totally true.

• 24:38Speaker 01

  Right, yeah.

• 24:39Mark Manson?

  Which basically sums up my career.

• 24:40Speaker 01

  I was just gonna say, yeah. You start out in men's dating advice, which some people would look at and they'd be like, oh, my God, that is so cringe, right?

• 24:47Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 24:47Speaker 01

  Um, but I mean, you're actually helping a lot of people in that regard. And then the self-help world in general.

• 24:53Mark Manson?

  It still goes on today. I I saw, uh, I forget where I saw it. I saw a comment somewhere, somewhere on social media. And it was like, some guy was like trashing me and he called me a pseudo philosopher. I love that. I was like, yeah, I kind of am a pseudo philosopher. I actually thought about putting that in my Twitter bio.

• 25:11Mark Manson?

  You know, like author, bestselling author, entrepreneur, pseudo philosopher. But it's funny because it's like, that's actually a perfect example, because like, that guy was trashing me for the exact reason that people love me.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:23Mark Manson?

  Which is like, I don't come up with any of this stuff. It's like, all this stuff with like, the Greeks and Romans and and.

• 25:29Speaker 01

  Buddhists.

• 25:30Mark Manson?

  Buddhists and Enlightenment philosophers, they all came up with this stuff. It's just that, like, I'm repackaging it and simplifying it so that, like, people sitting in their car can understand it and and apply it to their lives. That's not philosophy. That is pseudo philosophy. That's like, that's like plain philosopher when you're not. And and I take a lot of pride in that. I think it's like, it's actually hugely valuable service for the world. And and I and I have no illusions that I'm like, actually practicing philosophy. Uh, so yeah, that's a perfect example of like, the the thing that I get trashed for. I'm like, yeah, actually, that's, he's kind of bang on. But I think it's a good thing.

• 26:07Speaker 01

  Goes back to your values, too. I think it was, um, I know it was Oliver Berkman and one of his, I think it was in the anecdote. He said something along the lines of, you know, he, he understood that the, the whole, he, he waited in, he was a journalist and waited into the whole self-help.

• 26:22Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 26:22Speaker 01

  Realm, right? And he said, well, you know, I know that there's a, there's kind of a, a cringe reaction to the whole self-help, even the word self-help. He said, God forbid, anyone want to help themselves, right?

• 26:33Mark Manson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 26:34Speaker 01

  Put it that way. Well, like, what's so bad about it anyway? And if you think that that's a bad thing, well, I don't even give a shit about your opinion. It goes back to the, you know.

• 26:41Mark Manson?

  Self-help is kind of like porn in that like, nobody respects it, but everybody uses it.

• 26:51Mark Manson?

  Like, if you, if you look at the bestselling books of all time, it's like,

• 26:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:56Mark Manson?

  Seven out of the 10 are self-help books.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:59Mark Manson?

  It, it's absurd. I mean, it's, it's, it's a multi, multi-billion dollar industry. It, I, I generally find that sentiment mostly around, to bring it back to academia, around academics, journalists.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:13Mark Manson?

  Very highly educated people.

• 27:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:16Mark Manson?

  Uh, which I find ironic because it's actually very highly educated people are like the, the highest consumers of self-help material. And they're also the ones who go to therapy. So like, it's, um, you know, it's like, okay, yeah, you have all these degrees, but you're still sad and, and, and anxious and depressed and, and like spending hundreds of dollars on, on therapists and coaches. So like, you know, okay, trash self-help if you want, but, you're kind of the target demographic.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, okay. Here's another way then related to that as well. Statistically speaking, a normal person is physically unhealthy, emotionally anxious and depressed, socially lonely and financially in debt. So fuck being normal. Just to kind of back this up with some numbers too.

• 28:02Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 28:02Speaker 01

  So the, I still, I'm just shocked by this every time I look up the updated numbers. Overweight obesity rates in the United States is nearing 75% at this point. I remember back in like the late 2000s, early 2010s, it was like 60%. It's almost 75% now for overweight and obesity in the United States.

• 28:22Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  It's insane. 80% of Americans have some form of consumer debt, an average of $38,000 in debt, not including mortgages. That's not including.

• 28:31Mark Manson?

  Wow.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  Home mortgages or anything like that. So, yeah, uh, people are unhealthy. They're in debt, socially lonely.

• 28:40Mark Manson?

  Yeah, loneliness is at like sixty, seventy percent.

• 28:42Speaker 01

  So, so why do we want to fit in so badly if that's the case, right?

• 28:46Mark Manson?

  I love, I love this idea because it's, there's, there's two types of normal. There's like the cultural narrative of normal.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 28:56Mark Manson?

  And then there's the actual normal, the like statistical reality of normal. And what most people worry about not fitting into is the cultural narrative of normal. The cultural narrative of normal is completely skewed. It's like, it's, it's a Hollywood version of normal.

• 29:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 29:15Mark Manson?

  And it's invented and made up in everybody, in people's minds and it's a, probably a bunch of marketers and admin invented it to to sell dish detergent and fucking hair care products. Like it's like our idea of normal is just completely, completely off. It's so funny because this whole conversation of like not giving a fuck and, and not like, how can I give fewer fucks? How can I be less anxious? How can I worry less about what people are thinking about me? It's funny because all these things that we're talking about, these are not theoretical. These are not abstract theories. These are not like theoretical thought experiments. Like it's simply just recognizing reality.

• 29:57Mark Manson?

  It's, it's like really basic pieces of reality that for whatever reason, we tend to, to miss or forget about. You know, like you will be judged for everything. Like that's just a simple reality of being human. Yet we somehow like dilute ourselves and forget about that because it's, it's unpleasant to, to remember. Same thing with the normal thing, like that, that normalcy is actually generally unhealthy. Not really like there's not a, not, not a whole lot of success financially or.

• 30:32Mark Manson?

  You know, relationally, yet the the image that people compare themselves to is is probably in like the top 10% of like actual human outcomes in the world. So again, it's just it's just a reality check. It's it's a it's another one of these like slaps in the face of like, you know, wake up like, this is not the thing that you've constructed in your mind is not real. Like the fears and the narratives around the fears that you've you've been living off of were just made up. Like, reality is actually way more sobering.

• 31:06Speaker 01

  This is a bit of a tangent, but again,

• 31:08Mark Manson?

  I love tangents.

• 31:09Speaker 01

  I'm always shocked by these what, why, like, we knew back in the 2000s and 2010s, like, obesity is a problem, that's a problem. And there's all these basically PSAs going out, or people writing about it, or books written, government initiatives, and yet it continues to get worse. Why?

• 31:29Mark Manson?

  Bro, have you been to Taco Bell lately?

• 31:32Speaker 01

  I have not.

• 31:33Mark Manson?

  Have you tried the new?

• 31:34Speaker 01

  I have not.

• 31:35Mark Manson?

  The new Choco Tacos? I mean,

• 31:41Mark Manson?

  or Shake Shack? I mean,

• 31:42Speaker 01

  No, I have, I have not.

• 31:44Mark Manson?

  Shake Shack is a religious experience.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 31:46Mark Manson?

  It's a

• 31:47Speaker 01

  I don't think I've ever been to a Shake Shack, actually.

• 31:49Mark Manson?

  Oh, it's so good. Everybody in California loves In-N-Out, and

• 31:53Speaker 01

  Overrated.

• 31:53Mark Manson?

  It's so overrated, and

• 31:57Mark Manson?

  it's

• 31:57Speaker 01

  That's gonna get us canceled now.

• 32:02Mark Manson?

  In and yeah, In-N-Out is just like the most overhyped piece of mediocrity in the fast food industry. I mean, this comes back to like Derek Sivers has this great quote. He said, if all it took was information, we would all be millionaires with six packs. We don't act on information.

• 32:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 32:19Mark Manson?

  We act on emotion. And most lifestyle habits are driven by impulse and emotion. And

• 32:28Mark Manson?

  It's it takes a lot of work and a lot of effort to either fight against those impulses or emotions or retrain those impulses and emotions to do the things that are healthy for us. And so it's it's like food is just a very, you know, we talked about this on the on the health journey podcast, like it's food is such a it's such an instinctual unconscious relationship in our life. Like it's such a primal thing and our instincts around it are so fucking powerful. And so, I mean, like, as somebody who was obese, just as recently as a few years ago, like, dude, I knew all the data. I knew like, I knew everything

• 33:06Mark Manson?

  about processed carbs and sugars and alcohol. Like, I could have told you all of the information as we drove to Shake Shack and and I ordered a double double smoke shack with two orders of fries. Oh, it's so fucking tasty, dude. It's so tasty.

• 33:26Speaker 01

  That just, that sounds painful to me now. Like, it's just, I don't know. I don't know. But it does get into like this, we're talking about this whole being normal thing. You do feel this pull back into that, like, no, come join us. Come come back to to our side, be normal. I've noticed that too, just around like health stuff. Luckily, my friends, like when I stopped drinking, none of them were like, oh, come on, just have a drink. But I know a lot of people who do get that.

• 33:51Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 33:51Speaker 01

  Or a lot of people who, you know, I'll sit down, I'm like, you know, no, I don't want whatever terrible food that's here. I'll just have the salad or whatever. And sometimes I get some shit for that. Like, oh, come on, just live a little. There's that pull. You know what I mean? There's that pull.

• 34:06Mark Manson?

  It's like the PhD thing, right? It's like, you know, I'm completely all in on my unhealthy decision. How dare you have willpower in the face of

• 34:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:16Mark Manson?

  glorious temptation. Like, because then it calls in the question, my willpower and my ability as a as a human to to make good decisions. I do think this is also an area where environment plays a very big role. I mean, again,

• 34:31Speaker 01

  Huge.

• 34:31Mark Manson?

  just got back from Europe, like, impossible to To ignore that Europeans are significantly healthier on the food front than North Americans are. Uh, and it's just the, the food there, it's higher quality. They have a, a culture and history around food. They, they, they've got all sorts of regulations around processing and chemicals and preservatives and shit that you can't put in the food. Um, and it makes a big difference. And you know, you don't see fast food everywhere there like you do here. Um, they're not in their cars all the time like we are here. So it's, I do think when, when it comes like lifestyle choices, uh,

• 35:10Mark Manson?

  it's so many of them ultimately resort to path of least resistance. And so if the path of least resistance in your environment is,

• 35:20Mark Manson?

  Shake Shack or McDonald's, then that's probably what's going to get eaten most of the time.

• 35:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. And just an argument for being very, very conscious of who you surround yourself with and the, the culture.

• 35:31Mark Manson?

  That too.

• 35:31Speaker 01

  That you steep yourself in.

• 35:32Mark Manson?

  The people that you spend time with.

• 35:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Well, okay. Um, this next one then, your vanity tells you the world is going to love you. Your anxiety tells you the world is going to laugh at you. Both are lies.

• 35:44Mark Manson?

  Yeah. I, I'm like really enjoying this idea right now that, uh, our emotions sometimes tell the truth, but our emotions also are liars sometimes. And, and I think this, this is another example of just reality, solving a little bit of, of the mess that we experience, you know, cause I think we all have this idealistic belief that our, our emotions are always true and we should just listen to our hearts and just go with our feelings, go with your gut. I, I personally think that's, that is our, that's the monkey brain talking. The monkey brain doesn't want to stop and think about,

• 36:24Mark Manson?

  you know, whether the french fries are good for it or not, you know, the, the monkey brain doesn't want to, to ask itself whether, you know, people are actually going to. Like you or not, it it it just wants to do the thing and believe whatever it wants to believe. And look, in some cases, our emotions are really good, accurate feedback mechanisms for things going on in the world.

• 36:50Mark Manson?

  But sometimes they're completely full of shit. Sometimes they are, I mean, they're always irrational, but sometimes that irrationality causes us to be afraid of something that doesn't exist. To be excited about something that's not going to happen, to be worried about something that is completely imagined. To to be motivated by something that's actually very unhealthy, to fall in love with somebody who's actually doesn't treat us well. Right? Our emotions lead us astray just as often as they put us onto the right path. And so the kind of this blind adherence to our our emotions and our impulses and our gut like I just. And this, this comes into my, probably my biggest criticism of the self-help industry.

• 37:32Mark Manson?

  Because so much of of the self-help industry is, I think, taking people who are probably emotionally suppressed. And teaching them that emotions are everything and they should listen to their emotions all the time. And it's it's like solving one problem by creating another.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:48Mark Manson?

  And what what actually it's like. You should stop suppressing your emotions, but you also don't need to listen to them all the time. You you also should remember that your emotion is like a dog that poops on the carpet. And and cries when it doesn't get the treat it wants. And and you can still love it and you can still listen to it. You know, the same way you love your dog and listen to your dog, even when it shits on the carpet. You should love your emotions and listen to your emotions.

• 38:19Mark Manson?

  But don't let them rule your life.

• 38:21Speaker 01

  This also gets to the whole notion of entitlement that you get into.

• 38:25Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  And the books and other other places that you've written where, you know. It's a very entitled thing to think, oh, I'm so special, the world owes me something. Or, oh, I'm so awful, the world owes me something.

• 38:38Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 38:38Speaker 01

  This is getting into that a little bit, too.

• 38:40Mark Manson?

  Yes, for sure.

• 38:41Speaker 01

  And there's, that is, like you said, the self-help industry will often kind of play into that.

• 38:49Mark Manson?

  Absolutely.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  And be like, look at, look at how entitled you are, the world has screwed you over.

• 38:53Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 38:54Speaker 01

  It's time to get yours now, right?

• 38:55Mark Manson?

  Absolutely.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  The world doesn't give a fuck.

• 38:56Mark Manson?

  You know why? Because that sells $5,000 seminars.

• 39:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:01Mark Manson?

  And telling people like, the world doesn't owe you shit, your emotions don't necessarily mean anything. You should grow up and like, mature to the point that you don't have to like, cave to every impulse or emotion that you feel. That doesn't sell $5,000 seminars.

• 39:17Speaker 01

  You might get a $20 book, say a lot of that.

• 39:19Mark Manson?

  Yeah, you might, you might sell a book and you might get a free podcast listen, but uh, you know, $5,000, nobody's signing up for that seminar. So, uh, no, people want to hear like, you know, you're owed happiness, you deserve to be happy all the time, you deserve, your, your emotions are wise and true, and it's the universe telling you that you're special, um, and just, you know, sign up for this course and spend hundreds of dollars and bring your friends and I'll teach you the meditation that will put you in touch with the universe and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It, it's, it's, it is spiritual narcissism. Like, this is what spiritual narcissism is.

• 40:01Mark Manson?

  And a lot of this industry trains people in it and gets paid a lot to do so. And I think they do because spiritual narcissism is an improvement over abject depression. Like, if you take somebody who's so depressed that they can barely get out of bed, or so anxious that they're like repeatedly having panic attacks, and you train them to be a spiritual narcissist, that is an improvement, but it's not the end of the road. Like, they're still an unhealthy person. And, uh, there is something to it, but it's incomplete.

• 40:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:33Mark Manson?

  By the way, it is, it is a verifiable fact that spiritual narcissists prefer In-N-Out burger over Shake Shack.

• 40:40Speaker 01

  Or Tefa, okay. We just lost a whole bunch of people.

• 40:44Mark Manson?

  Great.

• 40:45Speaker 01

  Well, okay, I think this last one, you've already actually mentioned it, but it ties it all together pretty well. To not give a fuck about adversity, you must first give a fuck about something more important than adversity. This was in the books, this was in articles you've written.

• 40:57Mark Manson?

  Yeah. Yeah, it's, it comes back to that, to like, what's worth suffering for? What's worth being judged for? And if you can't answer that easily, then that's the problem. The judgment's not the problem. The adversity is not the problem. The fact that you can't answer that is the problem.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  Well, and I think a lot of people will also, they don't know what to give a fuck about. They don't know what the adversity they're willing to endure. So what they've done all their lives is just look at what everyone else has done. We've kind of already mentioned this.

• 41:30Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 41:30Speaker 01

  And follow that path. And so you get, you do that for a few years, a few decades. And that, like, yeah, you don't know what you're gonna-

• 41:38Mark Manson?

  You really don't.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  You don't know what you would sacrifice anything for. You don't know what you would endure any amount of pain for over a longer period of time. And so, yeah, they kind of all tie together like that. And I, I don't know, I think there's just, there's, there's a lot of people, I think, who are just kind of like, accepting what's around them-

• 41:56Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 41:56Speaker 01

  -as what to do and what to give a fuck about without ever thinking about it. Goes back to the whole, how do you feel about this emotional thing?

• 42:02Mark Manson?

  Yeah. Cool, I guess we're done.

• 42:04Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 42:05Mark Manson?

  Okay. Yeah, we still don't have an outro.

• 42:12Mark Manson?

  Say goodbye, Drew.

• 42:14Speaker 01

  Goodbye, Drew.

• 42:18Mark Manson?

  The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck podcast is produced by Drew Burney, edited by Andrew Nishimura, Jessica Choys, our videographer and sound engineer. Thank you for listening, and we will see you next week.