Malala Yousafzai

We’re honoured to welcome award winning activist Malala Yousafzai onto the podcast this week! We sat down and talked with Malala about her incredible stories from her brand new book ‘Finding My Way’. We covered her thoughts on cooking, going clubbing in Oxford, being ghosted, her love of Taylor Swift, food memories from Pakistan, her first experience of people with a hangover and what it was like to become a Nobel Peace Prize winner at the age of 17. This is such a special episode with an incredible lady, we could have chatted for hours! Malala’s new book ‘Finding My Way’ is available everywhere now. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:08Jessie Ware?

  Hello and welcome to Tabor Manas. I'm Jessie Wout and I'm here with Mum. We're in New Cross. And I'm so thrilled to have this person coming over to my house. It feels very, very, well, it's an honor. We've got Malala coming over, the Pakistani educational activist, who was protesting from the age of 11 about the Taliban taking away the rights of girls and education in Pakistan. And when she was 15, the Taliban came onto her school bus, asked who Malala was, and shot her in the head. The next thing she remembers is waking up in Birmingham, where she had been flown over and her whole family had come for her to be saved.

• 1:53Jessie Ware?

  And that's where she carried on living. She, I wouldn't say thrown into activism, because she...

• 1:59Speaker 04

  No, she's always been a strong advocate for female education.

• 2:02Jessie Ware?

  But I think from that horrendous incident, she then became world famous and also a symbol for...

• 2:12Speaker 04

  Female education.

• 2:13Jessie Ware?

  And female rights.

• 2:15Speaker 04

  She won the Nobel Peace Prize at age of 17, the youngest winner, I think. She's carried on being a huge advocate and activist for female education, particularly in the face of the Taliban, which is stopping girls going to school.

• 2:32Jessie Ware?

  And still is going on in Afghanistan.

• 2:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, girls are not allowed to go to school, they're not allowed to develop their education at all. And she has set up the Malala Fund to open schools for girls and to expand their horizons in education.

• 2:49Jessie Ware?

  Malala's coming on today to talk about her new memoir, it's called Finding My Way. I absolutely loved reading it. It's about, well, she talks about coming over here as a young girl and kind of restarting her life and missing all her friends back in Pakistan. But also, it's a very much a coming of age memoir, her time at Oxford, the highs, the lows. It's about mental health, falling in love, friendship, relationships and trauma. I think, you know, we look at Malala and we see her giving these incredibly important speeches and campaigning. She is being offered prizes, she is doing the work.

• 3:33Jessie Ware?

  And I think what was so beautiful was to learn more about Malala, the person, the young girl, the girl that is making mistakes at Oxford, the girl that is not knowing how to date.

• 3:44Speaker 04

  Who knew what a great dancer she was, her love of hip hop and her adoration of Taylor Swift.

• 3:51Jessie Ware?

  Well, I can't wait to talk to her about this, and of course, food. So I am cooking something that I've never cooked before, but I trust this brilliant chef. It's Easter Belfridge and it's her new cookbook, so I wanted to give it a little shout out. It's fusillo and it's inspired by Brazilian recipes. And it's a spatchcock chicken that has a spice that I've never heard of called urucum. And I'm really sorry, have you heard of it?

• 4:17Speaker 04

  No.

• 4:18Jessie Ware?

  Anyway, it's a bit of that, it's a load of peppercorns. You marinate it in yogurt and a bit of curry powder and overnight. And then you put it in this peppercorn coconut sauce with some. Tomato paste, this garlic and ginger and I mean so many twists of pepper. So I hope she likes pepper. And you do it in the oven for about forty minutes. I've got a big bird, so it's going to take a bit longer. And I've done it with your onion rice with chicken stock. And then a slaw from another recipe that Easter has in her book. I got the mandolin out again, Mum.

• 4:54Speaker 04

  Did you wear your gloves?

• 4:55Jessie Ware?

  I didn't.

• 4:56Speaker 04

  But you managed not to take any fingers off?

• 4:58Jessie Ware?

  I'm okay.

• 4:59Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 4:59Jessie Ware?

  And actually, it's a beautiful piece of equipment when used right. And then you've made pudding.

• 5:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 5:05Jessie Ware?

  What have you made?

• 5:05Speaker 04

  I've made a cake. She likes mangoes. She talks about mangoes a lot in her book. So I thought, I'll give the girl mangoes. So I've done a mango Mithai cake. Mithai is a term used for Indian sweets. So it's got the cake mixture has chopped cashews and chopped pistachio and cardamom in it. That's in the cake. Then there's saffron cream and cardamom in the cream and mango.

• 5:36Jessie Ware?

  Great. Malala's just come through, so Malala coming up on Tode Night.

• 5:50Jessie Ware?

  Malala, thank you for coming over after quite a wild night out last night, maybe. You won an Elle Style Awards.

• 5:57Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 5:57Jessie Ware?

  What was the award that you won?

• 5:59Speaker 05

  Inspirational Icon.

• 6:01Jessie Ware?

  How many Inspirational Icon Awards have you won thus far?

• 6:04Speaker 05

  Quite a few, but I think I was in the company of amazing people, including Riz Ahmed.

• 6:09Jessie Ware?

  We love Riz. Riz has been on the podcast.

• 6:11Speaker 05

  And Zadie Smith.

• 6:12Jessie Ware?

  Oh, amazing.

• 6:13Speaker 05

  So I was like, I have to just meet them and spend time with them.

• 6:17Jessie Ware?

  Firstly, just want to say I loved your memoir so much. I feel like it should be made into a film.

• 6:25Speaker 05

  Oh, are you gonna consider it?

• 6:27Jessie Ware?

  Well, I don't know. You make films. You've already made one with Jennifer Lawrence, so.

• 6:31Speaker 05

  That's true, but I am only a small part of it, as you would know. The production world is very different. So yeah, if anybody's interested, why not?

• 6:37Jessie Ware?

  It really felt like we got to know you and it felt like a coming of age memoir. And I loved learning about.

• 6:48Jessie Ware?

  You may be not always waking up for every Oxford um lecture, sleeping in your friend's hen and is it Anisha?

• 6:56Speaker 05

  Anisa.

• 6:56Jessie Ware?

  Anisa, hen, them all having to wake you up. Was it Yasmin, the Yasmin's in there?

• 7:01Speaker 05

  Yasmin, Cora, yes. It was my exam.

• 7:05Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 7:05Speaker 05

  It was my first exam at Oxford and they woke me up like fifteen, five minutes before I had to get there. It was insane.

• 7:14Jessie Ware?

  I think the outside, well, the public presume, you know, you've been given this kind of godly saint persona, which I, you are amazing. You're inspiring, you're incredible. But I did quite like hearing kind of the mistakes that Malala makes too.

• 7:32Speaker 05

  Yeah, and this was the whole reason why I wanted to write this book, Finding My Way, because I was fifteen and I was labelled as an icon. I was receiving many titles from the attack to the Nobel Prize. But in all of that, I was still fifteen year old and I did not know myself. So this book is me reintroducing myself. And what this journey has been like for me in the past ten or so years. I talk about my college life.

• 8:01Jessie Ware?

  Hmm.

• 8:02Speaker 05

  How I initially struggled, but I made my way to make friends, find love and make mistakes.

• 8:09Jessie Ware?

  Hmm.

• 8:10Speaker 05

  I never thought mental health would be a topic I would be talking about, but that affected me many, many years later after the attack. And I talk about silly moments, mistakes, how I nearly failed my first year exams to how I got ghosted by my first crush.

• 8:25Jessie Ware?

  Tarek.

• 8:26Speaker 05

  That's all part of the book.

• 8:27Speaker 04

  Where is Tarek now, do you think?

• 8:30Speaker 05

  We don't know. Can we find him?

• 8:33Speaker 04

  I'd love to find Tarek.

• 8:35Jessie Ware?

  Where are you? And why the hell did you ghost Malala?

• 8:39Speaker 04

  Because he was probably drug dealing.

• 8:41Jessie Ware?

  Well, no, this was the, do, do we think?

• 8:44Speaker 04

  I think he was.

• 8:44Speaker 05

  I don't think there is enough evidence, you know, we should not judge people too quickly.

• 8:49Speaker 04

  Said he was on his phone a lot and he had more than one phone.

• 8:52Speaker 05

  He had a lot of phones. He was always getting in trouble.

• 8:55Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 8:56Speaker 05

  And this is what my friends were trying to explain to me that can't you see it? It's pretty obvious. And I said, no, but have you heard it from Tarek's perspective? He's really struggling or what he's giving him.

• 9:07Speaker 04

  You're so kind.

• 9:08Speaker 05

  Academic support and we need to talk to the principal. I did not realise I was actually advocating for him. I had not spent that much time on any advocacy then advocating for Tariq.

• 9:19Speaker 04

  Was he good looking?

• 9:21Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 9:22Speaker 04

  Well, I thought you found him good looking, but objectively, did everyone else say Malala, what are you doing? He's not that great.

• 9:29Speaker 05

  No, as you can see in the book, nobody brought that up. So he was good looking. Nobody was disagreeing on that.

• 9:35Jessie Ware?

  I I feel like me and you have similar tastes. Have you been watching The Summer I Turned Pretty?

• 9:40Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 9:41Jessie Ware?

  I knew you would be. Are we team Conrad?

• 9:43Speaker 05

  Of course.

• 9:44Jessie Ware?

  Yes.

• 9:44Speaker 05

  Of course, from the start, we knew he was the one.

• 9:47Jessie Ware?

  We knew.

• 9:48Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 9:49Jessie Ware?

  But I'm kind of thinking, in my head, I was imagining Tariq kind of brooding a bit like Conrad.

• 9:54Speaker 04

  But you took him out of the bell tower as well.

• 9:57Jessie Ware?

  Okay.

• 9:57Speaker 05

  Season one Conrad.

• 9:58Jessie Ware?

  Okay, fine. Okay, let's go to Gilmore Girls. Is he a bit like, what's it, Milo Ventor? What's, do you watch Gilmore Girls?

• 10:05Speaker 05

  I've seen some.

• 10:06Jessie Ware?

  I feel like that's your autumn thing that you need to enter into now.

• 10:10Speaker 05

  It's it has many, many seasons, so I'm like.

• 10:12Jessie Ware?

  You're fine, but the bad boy in it, I think, can everyone clarify? I think his name's Jesse and then he plays the dad in This Is Us. Have you watched This Is Us?

• 10:20Speaker 05

  I have not.

• 10:20Jessie Ware?

  Okay, you've got so much that I need to pass on. We need to, yeah, but but yeah, I loved the image.

• 10:26Speaker 05

  He is, he is like Edward from Twilight. He is a bit like Conrad from season one in The Summer I Turned Pretty. He's that mysterious guy.

• 10:35Jessie Ware?

  Yes.

• 10:36Speaker 05

  You know, he's there, but he's not there. You feel like you want to be with him and and and he he is the one for you, but somehow he's not present and you do not know him. He does not share much of himself. It's just crazy. It's hard to describe it, but that's who he was. I felt like he was maybe a ghost, you know, it's like a ghost, something in my imagination.

• 10:57Speaker 04

  Drifted in and then drifted away.

• 11:00Speaker 05

  But I loved that because. You know, as you would read in the book, I just never thought I would be loved and I could love a boy. There were cultural reasons behind that. I just thought in our culture, you're just supposed to get married and there's no concept of dating or having a boyfriend. And then along with that, because of the attack, um my facial nerve was damaged. So I was a bit self-conscious and I thought, oh, you know, like it's it's all about work and like nobody should love me, whatever, you know, we're still young and and I was still a teenager. So all of those thoughts were in my mind. So when I saw Tarek, I was just thinking like, it's okay, it's okay to love somebody in your imagination.

• 11:38Speaker 05

  I can control myself outside and be focused on the work, but nothing can stop me from this this short phase of being in love and I love that.

• 11:46Jessie Ware?

  But I also love how you became the agony aunt to all of your girlfriends.

• 11:51Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 11:51Jessie Ware?

  That were having boy troubles or, you know, relationship troubles and you just say it how it is and they were like, you were kind of the oracle and they would come to you for advice. And I just, I it it was a really beautiful picture that you painted of sorority and friendship and learning about yourself. I loved hearing about you just being so um intrigued by people on a hangover. Being like I'd never seen someone on a hangover.

• 12:19Speaker 05

  Never, ever, ever. I just thought that was the craziest scene I would ever experience in my life. They were like lying on the floor and I had to drag them in the corridor and take them to their room. I thought this was the most insane thing I would ever be doing in college. I was not prepared for that. But also nobody would remember anything the day after.

• 12:38Jessie Ware?

  Oh, but you remember.

• 12:39Speaker 05

  I would have a whole experience, a story, and they would just say, I don't remember what happened last night. But that was part of their college life and I I just got to see it.

• 12:49Speaker 04

  Do you think when you arrived at at Oxford, everyone had an expectation that you were wise, mature, all of those things. So you had so much to live up to and then they had to get to know the person that liked Taylor Swift and

• 13:04Jessie Ware?

  Cardi B.

• 13:04Speaker 04

  And Cardi B and hip hop.

• 13:07Speaker 05

  Yeah, and who didn't know how to stir the tea the right way or.

• 13:11Speaker 04

  Which way is the right way?

• 13:12Jessie Ware?

  I still don't really know. Who told you this?

• 13:15Speaker 05

  So I was just, and I took the the the teaspoon, I was just like stirring it this way. And then she was like, no, you don't stir it this way. It's like back and forth and you don't touch the sides.

• 13:23Jessie Ware?

  Was this a posh mate of yours?

• 13:25Speaker 05

  Very posh.

• 13:27Speaker 05

  It was Anisa.

• 13:28Jessie Ware?

  Okay.

• 13:28Speaker 05

  She always had something to say about how I was like talking and etiquettes and you know how you stirred your tea. So she was an interesting character, you know, sort of a bit mean, but then in the end she also was there for me when I needed help. And she she made me realise how I needed to stop thinking about Tarek and and I just could not like help a guy who did not want to help himself.

• 13:51Speaker 04

  Is she the one that dressed you up for club night?

• 13:53Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 13:55Jessie Ware?

  Was this the eighties aerobics night?

• 13:57Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 13:58Jessie Ware?

  Where you got completely wrong when they turned they turned up for you and you were like.

• 14:02Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 14:02Jessie Ware?

  What were you in when you were going to this kind of, it wasn't freshers week anymore. This was like second year or third year, was it?

• 14:07Speaker 05

  Like later in first year, I think, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I I had just no clue. I was like, what does this even mean? This is my first night with college students at a club. And they were like, no, no, no, like a club night is is very different than you think. So. Yeah, you know, it's just like bright um yellow, like mustard colour top, which was, you know, cropped. And they said, okay, we can wear something underneath that so you feel comfortable. And they put some glitter on my face and a lot of makeup and uh and then I put on some, I put on sunglasses so that that could just hide my identity a bit. And I realised so many people didn't even recognise me at the club, which was nice.

• 14:48Speaker 05

  Uh so I was like, hey, like, it is me. I took off my, you know, my cap and like my uh sunglasses.

• 14:53Jessie Ware?

  But and also you stayed to the bitter end. They were exhausted. Your friends were like, we can't go as hard as Malala in the club.

• 15:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, initially I I was so scared to go. I just had no idea if I could even stay there for five minutes. And then as soon as I was there, I I just enjoyed the company of my friends and I just felt like I was a college student. At school, I had a very different experience. I had only one friend this whole time. Because the school had introduced me to the girls before they had met me.

• 15:23Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:24Speaker 05

  So in their mind, it was this this icon or some sort of activist they had heard of in the news. Everybody was um hesitant to approach me. I was also really scared. I did not know what to say. I felt like I could not follow, you know, the trendy conversations and catch on the the phrases that they were using. So I would just, you know, read a book. I was just reading at lunchtimes. But in college, it was a restart for me because I knew everybody is new in first year and they're all trying to make friends. So I said, I it's okay if I'm a bit creepy and if I'm overdoing it, but I will go and say hello to everybody and I will make as many friends as I can.

• 16:07Speaker 04

  I I mean, I'm very aware that your life in rural Pakistan with your girl, you had such good friends there. And you must have missed them so much when you arrived in Birmingham. And it was so hard to keep in touch, really.

• 16:22Speaker 05

  My friends uh in Pakistan were a way for me to reconnect with my old life, with my previous life before the attack. Because I did not remember what happened during the attack. And somehow I was in a new country and I just could not connect the two worlds. And friends was a way that I could remind myself of my childhood and my time at school, how we used to like giggle during recess time and we used to play badminton or uh you know, how much we loved our our school time that you know, we love to dance in our classroom, sometimes listen to music. And and those memories would would stay with us forever. So whenever I felt

• 17:04Speaker 05

  that that I was missing home, I would call my my best friend.

• 17:08Speaker 04

  Can we talk about your childhood and talk about some of the food memories you have growing up in Pakistan? And can you paint the picture for picture for us? Who's around the dinner table? And what was something that you were eating a lot of?

• 17:21Speaker 05

  So we did not have a dinner table.

• 17:23Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 17:24Speaker 05

  We first had a dinner table in Birmingham.

• 17:28Speaker 05

  When we moved to the UK, before that in Pakistan, we had always eaten on the floor. So there's a mat that you put on the floor and then you all sit around it and it's called Dastar Khan. That's the mat is called that. And you know, everybody's around and the food is in the middle and you are just sharing it. It's all about sharing. I remember breakfast with my brothers and my parents in the morning and I could never finish my egg. I just hated egg and my parents would force me to eat it, but I could never finish it. And but I loved my mom's rice and chicken. It was my favorite dish in the world and to this day I can have it anytime. It's.

• 18:07Jessie Ware?

  What's special about it?

• 18:09Speaker 05

  It's just like plain white rice. There is not much spices in it, but somehow it just smells so good. And it just, it has this taste to it that I can't describe as simple as it is. It is delicious and just maybe because my my mom's hands have cooked it. And and the curry, it's it's chicken curry, um, you know, with a tomato sauce. Um, and and yeah, and just pour it on the on the rice and you have like a delicious meal. This was like my perfect meal anytime I could have.

• 18:46Jessie Ware?

  Were you a fussy eater?

• 18:48Speaker 05

  I was a very fussy eater growing up. I hated a lot of things. Yeah, but then I'm if I compare myself to that past version of me, I'm I'm very different now. Like I could not have aubergine and like vegetables and like. I if I can list down a million things that I could not imagine eating and today I can eat everything.

• 19:12Jessie Ware?

  You you also you talk about that in the book and part of your mental health journey. And and dealing with some of the PTSD from the attack. And self self care, you talk about this notion of self care. You kind of would have been like, no, no, no, no, no before. And then taking it quite seriously and that to do with diet as well. And like nourishing yourself in a different way.

• 19:40Speaker 05

  Yeah, so when I had a panic attack at Oxford and that was because of this exposure to bong with friends, of course, you know, it's college life. And everybody is trying something and like smoking weed is so normal there. But I had never heard of bong. I did not know what it was. I took one puff and I coughed. But on the second attempt, I thought it couldn't do much harm. But I felt it just all went into my body. And that moment was the craziest moment I could ever live in because even though I had forgotten about the attack, I felt like I was reliving it. That I could see the gunman, that I could feel like I am, I'm, I'm sort of killed again and

• 20:23Speaker 05

  and I could not process if I'm in in reality or not, if this is happening all over again. Which was a very difficult moment, but it not only affected my sleep and and, you know, my my physical health and how I did not feel present, it also affected my diet. For days, I just could not eat normal. I was constantly drinking tea. And then the most I could do was just eat ranch fries. That's it. Um, it was, it was difficult to like get that appetite and then um I was later told that I'm anemic as well. And of course, if you're not eating properly, like you would become anemic as well. So it it is connected. I think diet is everything. And then um so I I realized that

• 21:06Speaker 05

  in my mental health journey, I not only need to prioritize therapy and all the other support that I need, but also my diet. So I am more into fitness now. I exercise.

• 21:17Jessie Ware?

  Yeah, I've heard running for over an hour. I'm really, I'm really jealous and yet also very impressed. Congratulations.

• 21:25Speaker 05

  I'm also impressed because I never thought this would be me.

• 21:28Jessie Ware?

  Where do you run?

• 21:30Speaker 05

  Just run on a treadmill.

• 21:31Jessie Ware?

  Do you find it boring on a treadmill though? I guess it's harder maybe.

• 21:35Speaker 04

  It'd be harder for it to run outside.

• 21:38Speaker 05

  I can run outside, but I think it can be a bit steep, like it's just unpredictable. What the road would look like outside. So I think I'd do it as a cheat code where, you know, I, at least on a treadmill, I know it's flat and it's not that hard.

• 21:50Jessie Ware?

  What are you watching or listening to when you're running?

• 21:54Speaker 05

  So um, in the beginning.

• 21:56Jessie Ware?

  Hmm.

• 21:57Speaker 05

  I was not listening to any music while running.

• 22:00Jessie Ware?

  That's like road dogging.

• 22:01Speaker 05

  I know people, I, I told it to a friend, cause they asked me and they thought I was weird. I said, oh, like, so do people have to listen to music when they're in the gym or running? They said, yeah. So then recently I did try and I realized, yeah, it's like very helpful if you're listening to music. There's Kavali music. Kavali is traditional music from South Asia, like India, Pakistan, and it's basically connected to Sufism as well. The songs are twenty to twenty-five minutes long.

• 22:29Speaker 04

  So five minutes long. What are they about?

• 22:32Speaker 05

  It's about connecting to God, connecting to your inner self. It's about spirituality and that, you know, you don't have to look for, for God anywhere else. It's, it's within us, it's within you, and it's about being kind and being um, just being more human.

• 22:49Speaker 04

  Are you religious?

• 22:51Speaker 05

  Yes, I mean, like I, I grew up in Pakistan. Islam is the religion there.

• 22:55Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 22:55Speaker 05

  Um, and but because I was not aware of any other religion, so I just could not understand how was my faith different than other faiths? Uh, but when I came to the UK and I had a bit more exposure and learned about other faiths, I realized that at the center of all of these faiths is a similar message about being good. Being good to each other, being good to our climate and environment, uh, taking care of each other and just having a sense of morality, like that is the main purpose more than the. You know, the practices and the rituals and the prayers, like that is the essence of it. I think if you don't have that, then it's it's empty.

• 23:36Speaker 05

  It doesn't carry as much for you if you are just simply about the rituals and the practices. That's what I have learned. So for me, religion is still a big part of my life. The other reason I am focusing on staying close to my religion is because the people who tried to attack me, the Taliban, they have misused our religion. They have misused Islam, even right now when they have taken control in Afghanistan and they have banned girls and women from learning public life, sports and any political participation. They're using the religious narrative, they're using the cultural narrative.

• 24:17Speaker 05

  So I want to stay connected with my faith because I want people to know that that I am a reflection of the faith, that the women who are from those communities are a reflection of the faith, not these extremists. They cannot claim to be the ambassadors of the religion. They're completely misusing it. You do not find any verse that says a girl cannot be allowed in school or you can stop a woman from work. Like, it's just complete nonsense that they have promoted because of their misogynistic views. So I think, you know, more of us from our faith need to stand up to that. And I think it's up to people how they interpret it and how they define it. So, yeah.

• 24:55Speaker 04

  Are you connected with anyone in Afghanistan? Is there a kind of, well, you're not going to say, but I mean, I just wondered if there were any links there that you can support women who are fighting over there to?

• 25:08Jessie Ware?

  You say in the book that you had to, when the Taliban were taking over, you had to evacuate, try and help, because you do have the Malala Fund there and organizations. Yeah, yeah.

• 25:20Speaker 05

  So the Taliban now and then have taken control of different parts of Pakistan. So, you know, we were based in Pakistan. They took control of our town from two thousand and seven till two thousand and nine. But they had been in power in Afghanistan in the late nineties. And then again, now they're back in power for the past four years. In Afghanistan, we were supporting projects. We were giving grants to local activists who were providing teachers' training, who were reaching to girls in the most marginalized communities. And of course, there were so many challenges girls were already facing, from cultural norms to just lack of teachers, lack of good female teachers. So we had quite a few activists who were doing this incredible work.

• 26:01Speaker 05

  But when the Taliban took over, they had to hide every piece of proof that they had worked for girls' education. They had to hide everything. The Taliban were getting into their offices. They were searching for evidence on their laptops. They were beating them up, they were threatening them. So we had to evacuate all our activists as soon as we could. And I'm so glad that everybody's safe now. We, I think to this day, we have saved more than like three hundred education activists and their families. But they're still doing the work. They have not stopped.

• 26:33Speaker 04

  Are they in Pakistan now?

• 26:35Speaker 05

  They're in different countries. Some of them have found their permanent residence. They're in different countries. And they continue to do the work. They are leading a campaign to ask world leaders to hold the Taliban accountable. And in the international system, like, these things get these big jargons and it doesn't make sense to people. Like, even to myself, I was like, wait a second. We have all of these conventions and we talk about human rights. When a group like the Taliban take over and they announce more than a hundred decrees and edicts and they prevent women from work, education, and systematically oppress them, like, what does that mean? So Afghan activists and other human rights activists

• 27:18Speaker 05

  are calling world leaders to recognize this as a gender apartheid. They're saying that it is a form of an apartheid which is against women. Because you're born a woman, you're a girl, you have a different life. If you're born a girl in Afghanistan, you cannot have an education. You cannot dream of ever doing work. You cannot have any political participation. And you are punished for it. That's the most important thing. It's those who are in power, who are supposed to protect you, are actually taking away your rights. So we need a better international system that can actually provide protection for women. And when groups like the Taliban take control, that we can hold them accountable. And I see this important, not just for women and girls in Afghanistan, but for women everywhere.

• 28:01Speaker 05

  There is no guarantee that women are safe in any country against such oppressive regimes that are controlling women's bodies, women's rights, and that are taking away women's rights as human beings.

• 28:15Speaker 04

  Well, yeah, even in more sophisticated countries, that's happening.

• 28:21Speaker 05

  I think just the way we're seeing the world right now, I'm like, I'm doubting if any. You know, like, on the one hand, I I'm really proud of the progress and I sit down with people and they're doing incredible work and they they are in like every part of the world, from Tanzania to Brazil to the UK. But then you also are witnessing this backward movement where people are taking away women's rights and it's everywhere. Like, you know, you hear about misogyny, even in the UK, you hear about how, you know, the government officials, where it's just men only in the room and they're talking about women's bodies and and what women's rights should be. Like, this is completely shocking that decisions about women's futures and bodies are made in their absence.

• 29:04Speaker 05

  So we need to rethink about it in the context of every country. And that's why, like, when I think about an issue in Afghanistan, when I think about the situation of women in in Gaza or in any part of the world, I think it should matter to all of us. Not just for the sake of like solidarity, we need more of that, but also because of what does it mean for our commitment to gender equality.

• 29:26Jessie Ware?

  I mean, I saw that you you've committed quite a lot of, a huge donation to Gaza as well, like, for like relief, um, the Malala Fund did, didn't they?

• 29:34Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 29:35Jessie Ware?

  Yeah, which is amazing. Um, it feels really trivial now to ask you about some food stuff. So I'm really sorry because you speak so brilliantly and I could listen to you all day.

• 29:46Speaker 04

  But you you do travel the world. You must try food all over the world.

• 29:50Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, I have tried food in Nigeria. I have tried jollof rice. I've tried food in Ethiopia and Lebanon, Jordan. I love Middle Eastern food. I have tried food in Brazil and Mexico. And food in Mexico is not the Mexican food you find in a restaurant in America. It's so different. I was like, so where's, you know, the burritos that I know. They're like, no, no, you're gonna get something more delicious than that. And I have never found the same food that I had in Mexico or in Brazil. It's it's delicious. It's so different. It's it's the ingredients, it's the smell, it's the it's the taste, and it's also the people. It's the people on the table. And I love that the most because they have a story about everything. They have a story about why

• 30:35Speaker 05

  these tomatoes are so important, why this kind of flower is so important. There's a whole history how they had like struggled for it. There's a a a history of pride for justice. Um. And it's somehow also associated with women's freedom and women's independence, how women were fighting for um for for their equality. And I love that, even though I can't cook, but I love all those conversations and I love the food.

• 31:00Speaker 04

  Can you really not cook?

• 31:02Speaker 05

  No, I can't.

• 31:03Speaker 04

  If you can read, you can cook, I think.

• 31:05Speaker 05

  So here's a little secret about me and my cooking journey.

• 31:08Speaker 04

  Come on then. Okay.

• 31:10Speaker 05

  So when I was a kid, I knew that if I learned to cook, I will be expected to cook forever. And that was also a nice thing on your C V for you to get married.

• 31:21Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 31:22Speaker 05

  So there were many reasons then why I did not want to learn to cook because I just did not want to be considered for marriage. Then also at home, I had two younger brothers. I had no sister, but two younger brothers. And I knew they will never learn to cook because that's the environment we grew up in. In my whole life in Pakistan, I had never seen a man cook. It was always, always.

• 31:44Speaker 04

  Male chefs in Pakistan.

• 31:46Speaker 05

  Not in all, like the the villages and the the places I come from, like I did not come from a big city. We were from, you know, the mountains. We uh just it's so common, like it's expected.

• 31:56Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 31:57Speaker 05

  And like my father is celebrated for being a feminist dad, that he never pressurized his daughter. He was always with her. That is fine, but I think, you know, and we both recognize it, the missing parts. Like I never saw him cooking. And he never thought about it for the boys, that you know, was he thinking about teaching the boys how to cook? So they can be the better next men.

• 32:19Jessie Ware?

  Well, are they cooking now? You know, they live in Birmingham. Do they both still live in Birmingham?

• 32:24Speaker 05

  Uh, yes, yes.

• 32:26Jessie Ware?

  And have they learnt how to cook?

• 32:27Speaker 05

  So the little one, yes, because he uh, he came to the UK when he was eight years old. And somehow for him, you know, this was just a new culture that he was growing up in. So it was. Um, he had plenty of more time. So he cooks now and I'm so shocked that he can cook now.

• 32:43Speaker 04

  But you get people running all the good restaurants, the Pakistani restaurants here, like in Tooting. And they're all, they're all male.

• 32:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, but that's another problem though. I think that's also a problem in itself, that when it comes to making money. And when it becomes a job, then men are like, oh, you you want a chef, I'm there. But you want to cook? Just to cook, then you have to do it for free. It's unpaid labour and you do it at home. So then it's women's job.

• 33:11Speaker 04

  Does your husband cook?

• 33:13Speaker 05

  He doesn't cook. He can't cook. Um, he was, he was never taught how to cook. And that's what happened. That's, he makes reservations, yes.

• 33:23Speaker 04

  So who cooks at home?

• 33:24Speaker 05

  He gets the delivery and everything.

• 33:27Speaker 04

  What do you do at home? You just put things in the microwave?

• 33:30Speaker 05

  Yes. So basically, when we got married, that's when I realised that, oh, you know, I don't have my mom here cooking for me. And I can't rely on restaurant food or, you know, these deliveries. So. My husband and I were like really worried what we were gonna do. So then, but he's like quite practical. So he has committed to to learn to cook one day. Because I said to him, I said, I will never learn how to cook before you. It's like the moment a woman learns to do, like if she decides to cook before. Then everybody says, oh, you cooks, you know, you make delicious food and it's better when you make it and I can't make it like you. I was like, no, I'm gonna get trapped in this. So I want you.

• 34:10Jessie Ware?

  Even with darling, uh, how do you pronounce his name?

• 34:13Speaker 05

  Asser.

• 34:13Jessie Ware?

  Asser. Even with darling Asser, would he, I don't believe he would ever trap.

• 34:18Speaker 05

  I know.

• 34:19Jessie Ware?

  His, his. Free thinking Malala who he celebrates.

• 34:23Speaker 05

  It's true, but I think it's just how I grew up.

• 34:25Jessie Ware?

  Uh huh, yeah.

• 34:26Speaker 05

  And and it's it's the fear that I carry with me. It was the same fear I had with me when I was thinking about whether to get married or not. And I was like, Arthur is the perfect guy. He thinks better than me about how women should be treated in in marriage. And I thought like, he is not that stereotypical guy. To be honest, he's like way ahead. And and somehow in my mind, it's just all of these thoughts are floating. And I could not convince myself that it would be the marriage that, you know, I dream of. It it is better than that, like I'm so happy. But I think it's okay for us to have these worries because like that's the reality we face. We cannot dissociate ourselves with it. That's how we grew up.

• 35:16Speaker 00

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• 36:24Jessie Ware?

  Okay, sorry, I'm not gonna put this on a bowl. I just think we may as well just keep it in there. Do you mind it being in the bay?

• 36:32Speaker 05

  Not.

• 36:32Jessie Ware?

  Okay, fine. It's actually a Brazilian dish.

• 36:35Speaker 05

  Oh, nice.

• 36:36Jessie Ware?

  My friend has a new cookbook out and she's brilliant. And Easter belfry, and I thought, well, I'll try it. So it's like a kind of coconut peppercorn.

• 36:46Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 36:47Jessie Ware?

  Chicken.

• 36:48Speaker 05

  Nice.

• 36:48Jessie Ware?

  Thing with some rice. And so hopefully.

• 36:52Speaker 04

  Do you like spicy?

• 36:54Speaker 05

  I like spicy, but not too spicy.

• 36:57Speaker 04

  Me too.

• 36:58Speaker 05

  I can't have too spicy food.

• 37:00Speaker 04

  So if you were having.

• 37:01Speaker 05

  My stomach has changed, I think the whole, you know.

• 37:04Speaker 04

  If you were having Nandos, what would you have? The mild or medium?

• 37:09Speaker 05

  Medium.

• 37:10Speaker 04

  Medium, you're a medium Nandos person.

• 37:12Speaker 05

  But I am very open to mild, because some people can't have mild. They're like, it has to be like medium and above. But I'm like, medium and below.

• 37:20Speaker 04

  Me too.

• 37:20Jessie Ware?

  Mum, I'm actually gonna ask you to kind of serve it, if that's okay.

• 37:23Speaker 04

  If you give me the right implements.

• 37:25Jessie Ware?

  Right here.

• 37:25Speaker 04

  I'll be able to do it. A sharp knife, darling, and a fork.

• 37:31Speaker 04

  Malala, tell me how much you would like to eat chicken, wise.

• 37:35Speaker 05

  I can eat a lot of chicken.

• 37:38Jessie Ware?

  Whilst mum cuts up some of the chicken, do you mind doing that? Thanks, mum, appreciate you.

• 37:43Speaker 04

  Do you want me to do the sauce? Do you want me to put sauce on for you?

• 37:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, and that should be enough.

• 37:48Jessie Ware?

  And the rice on this.

• 37:50Speaker 04

  Oh, why have I got, I need to get some.

• 37:52Jessie Ware?

  Let me just do the sauce.

• 37:55Speaker 04

  I'll get you some.

• 37:56Speaker 05

  Don't worry. You haven't seen our kitchen.

• 38:00Jessie Ware?

  Well, I was, we usually ask everyone, everyone's favourite item in their kitchen. What would be your most used item in your kitchen, Malala?

• 38:09Speaker 05

  It's the microwave.

• 38:13Speaker 05

  Microwave fridge.

• 38:14Jessie Ware?

  Okay, so what would we find in your fridge always? If we were coming over, what would always be in the fridge?

• 38:21Speaker 05

  So definitely milk, some berries.

• 38:24Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 38:25Speaker 05

  And like yogurt.

• 38:27Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 38:27Speaker 05

  Bread and then boxes of food.

• 38:31Jessie Ware?

  What, like leftovers?

• 38:33Speaker 05

  No, so we have found this service that delivers food that you just put in the microwave.

• 38:39Jessie Ware?

  Crepe, like, yeah.

• 38:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, it is easy because, you know, technically I can cook and it takes me three minutes to just put in.

• 38:45Jessie Ware?

  And it's healthy and considered.

• 38:48Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 38:49Jessie Ware?

  Um, this is a coleslaw.

• 38:51Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 38:51Jessie Ware?

  Um, and then there's some onion and coriander and lime, if you want some of that. Um. I wanted to talk about your mum. You did, you did an Instagram post about how, you know, lots of people know a lot about your dad.

• 39:05Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 39:06Jessie Ware?

  And less about your mum and that your mum and your relationship has been, um, how should I say?

• 39:13Speaker 05

  You know, it's, uh.

• 39:14Jessie Ware?

  Complicated.

• 39:15Speaker 05

  A bit complicated, yes.

• 39:17Jessie Ware?

  But I did think that there was a really important and quite beautiful bit in the book. Where you talk about your mum. And I'm, I, I think I'm right, your mum bringing home a young girl.

• 39:31Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 39:31Jessie Ware?

  To live with you.

• 39:33Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 39:34Jessie Ware?

  Who you now realise was pregnant.

• 39:37Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 39:37Jessie Ware?

  Who had been raped.

• 39:40Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 39:40Jessie Ware?

  At, at the age of thirteen. And your mum, because it was so frowned upon, that she would be pregnant. And then unmarried in your area, it was, I mean, it's.

• 39:52Speaker 05

  Yeah, and it's just the fact that if, you know, she became a mother, like.

• 39:56Jessie Ware?

  Without being married.

• 39:59Speaker 05

  You have no idea how many girls have been killed for that. So it is about not just life and death because of, you know. The fact that a girl is pregnant at such a young age and that has a huge risk to her health.

• 40:11Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 40:11Speaker 05

  But also that if the family or if like men in the family find out, they kill them in the name of honour. So my mum knew that there was just no future for her. There was, this was the only way out for her, to save her.

• 40:29Jessie Ware?

  And I did think it was a really powerful moment in the book because you kind of, you, you had kind of more empathy. And understanding of your mum. Your mum had been brought up in a very different. Well, I mean, you have a shared culture, of course, but you spent a lot of your time from the age of fourteen, fifteen in Birmingham. And whether it was your mum being very worried about the fact that

• 40:56Jessie Ware?

  you had been photographed coming back from rowing practice in jeans.

• 41:00Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 41:01Jessie Ware?

  But you still had your.

• 41:02Speaker 05

  Still got your jeans on, my love.

• 41:04Jessie Ware?

  Yes, of it. But I did think it, can can we talk about your mum a bit more and how writing this maybe helped mend your relationship maybe a little bit?

• 41:15Speaker 05

  I always thought my mum would never understand me and I was always mad at my mum that she had a problem with what I wore and she was always worried about how my family members, my cousins would react in our village, even though we were miles away.

• 41:31Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 41:31Speaker 05

  But somehow that culture was just coming back and influencing my life.

• 41:35Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 41:37Speaker 05

  So when my mum saw that picture of me wearing jeans, she was so mad at me. She's she said like, why do you always cause trouble? Now I have to go and and explain it to people and I and and I can't.

• 41:49Jessie Ware?

  Hmm.

• 41:51Speaker 05

  And my mum also had, you know, and it's not just that one incident. It's like again and again, my mum would say, why are you wearing this? Why are you wearing that? Wear something more traditional. She also was very, you know, she she also had an opinion about like everything, my marriage and so so many things.

• 42:08Jessie Ware?

  Mm hmm.

• 42:09Speaker 05

  That when.

• 42:11Jessie Ware?

  She was adamant that your husband would have to speak Pashto.

• 42:15Speaker 05

  Yeah, so, you know, we speak different languages. He speaks Urdu and Punjabi. Our mother tongue is Pashto, so my mum also had a problem with that. And I said to my mum, I told my mum that it's about me and him, like, we are marrying each other. He does not have to meet the criteria of everybody else in the family.

• 42:34Speaker 05

  But for my mom, it was just also about the pressure that she faced growing up.

• 42:39Jessie Ware?

  Hmm.

• 42:41Speaker 05

  And it helped me reflect on what her childhood was like, what had she experienced. And for her, you know, the things that they had to fight for were just as simple as not being married off to a horrible man.

• 42:55Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 42:55Speaker 05

  And if they're beaten, that the family will actually support them, rather than telling her, go back to your husband.

• 43:01Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 43:02Speaker 05

  Or when a girl is raped, that people don't blame her, but they actually save her and stand with her.

• 43:08Jessie Ware?

  Hmm.

• 43:08Speaker 05

  So when I think about all of these things, and when I was reflecting on the story that, you know, my mom had saved a girl's life who was raped. Um, and, and, you know, she helped her to get an abortion.

• 43:20Speaker 05

  I could understand where she was coming from. And I knew that for her, it was a bit, she could not process why I would cause trouble just by wearing jeans. Where there were other bigger problems to be worried about. Um, but, you know, at the same time, I, I would try to explain to her that, of course, things were different in her time, but we always have to take a stand. For the things that we believe in, otherwise things will remain as they are. Uh, but I understand my mom more. I knew what her life was like when she was young and. I asked her what her dream life was, and she simply said to marry a good guy who could respect her. And she could live in the city and enjoy delicious food, kebab in the rain.

• 44:06Speaker 05

  And drive in a car and, and that was just all she was, she was saying. And I tried to rephrase my question and say, but mom, like, no, what did you want to be and what was your dream? And there was no answer.

• 44:18Jessie Ware?

  She wasn't allowed to have a dream?

• 44:20Speaker 05

  And just for a second, I just thought like, maybe she just grew up in an environment where they could not even picture it.

• 44:29Speaker 05

  And for them, the most ambitious dream that they could have was being with a with a husband who was nicer and not horrible.

• 44:39Speaker 04

  I was thinking, Malala, you inherited this this crown, really, that you have to wear, and it must feel very heavy sometimes, this responsibility that you have. Because it's like you've got global responsibility for female education now. You're the pinnacle of everyone's hopes that you can put things right, in a way.

• 45:03Speaker 05

  I received these titles and recognition at a very young age. If you compare the average age of the Nobel Peace Prize winners, they're in like their sixties and seventies. And they have already been presidents and prime ministers. They have been activists their whole life.

• 45:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:22Speaker 05

  But I just could not even compare my life with any of them to figure out a way how I am supposed to live mine. I was still seventeen when I won that. And at seventeen, like you're figuring out what subjects to study and you're ma- you want to make friends, you want to feel loved and you want to find the love of your life.

• 45:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:47Speaker 05

  You know, you want to gossip sometimes, maybe, or just talk about anything, talk about astrology. And I felt that I was assuming that after this recognition, I somehow have to live a different life.

• 46:01Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 46:02Speaker 05

  And and the life that's portrayed of these activists in media, in our textbooks, um, you know, sort of the the Mother Teresa or you know, Nelson Mandela, or like the Martin Luther King Junior journey.

• 46:18Speaker 05

  But, you know, we also, you know, about them, like, we just know very little about their personal lives. And and I was sort of, I felt stuck between that, that, you know, what is the expectations, what is?

• 46:31Speaker 05

  How am I supposed to live my life? And then I realized that, you know, there is no right or wrong way. There there is no written way. You have to write it yourself.

• 46:40Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 46:40Speaker 05

  And and I have to be a person of my age. I have to be. And and I felt like at times I was acting like somebody much younger than my age because I thought I was reliving it.

• 46:52Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 46:53Speaker 05

  I would enjoy every moment with my friends. If we were talking about comparing the star signs of our, you know, crushes or if we were complaining about our homework assignments. Because this was part of my everyday life and I could not dissociate myself from that. Uh so at college, I felt like I was in a safe zone.

• 47:16Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 47:16Speaker 05

  And it was a good way of escapism from the work life. And I felt like I, you know, I was just like switching between these these different worlds of like work and then what I was seen publicly to then this college life. And what made it different in college was the friends.

• 47:31Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 47:31Speaker 05

  Because they treated me as a friend and nothing else, nothing more, nothing less. To them, it was it was just their college, college buddy.

• 47:39Speaker 04

  I know that you have terrible PTSD and because of the horrific injuries you suffered. Is there some way of rationalizing that terrible incident in that it's given you this platform that somehow it can mitigate against the horrificness of that how horrible it was? Because actually, you've became Malala, this world renowned activist who has such a purpose in life that some of us would never ever have.

• 48:10Speaker 05

  So I have been asked this question many times. Do I wish my life was different? Do I wish this had never happened? Or would I have wanted to live in Pakistan forever? And I used to say yes.

• 48:22Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 48:23Speaker 05

  Because, you know, who wants to be attacked? Who wants to to to face all of this trauma? But in these years, I have been reflecting on the impact I have had.

• 48:36Speaker 05

  And it's not just about, you know, my story being unique, but me highlighting to people that the story of me as a young activist is actually not a unique story. There are incredible girls and young women activists out there. We need to give more support to them. So to look at how many students, how many girls we have reached through the work of Malala Fund, to look at how there has been more financial commitment towards girls' education, how secondary education has become part of the UN Sustainable Development Goals, and I can just, you know, keep on adding more to the list. And when I think about the school that we're supporting in our village, Shangline, Pakistan,

• 49:19Speaker 05

  where more than seven hundred girls are studying right now, the first class graduated from that school. Oh, congrats. And it has redefined the future of girls for that whole village. Girls dream differently now because they know they have a school, they can complete their education. We have created a pathway. And, and when I think about all of that, I feel like, yes, you know, I, I would not pick a different path for my life. This was somehow the right path. It had pain, it had difficulties, it had trauma, but when I think about how I, you know, with the support of the people, I, I change the direction and the focus and I

• 50:03Speaker 05

  can now impact so many girls, um, I'm grateful for it.

• 50:07Speaker 04

  Do you need more sauce?

• 50:09Speaker 05

  No, no, it's. Blame to your sauce.

• 50:11Speaker 04

  It's delicious, Jessie.

• 50:12Speaker 05

  The food is delicious, by the way. It's so good. It's so good. I will make this again.

• 50:16Speaker 04

  God, it's gorgeous.

• 50:17Speaker 05

  It is so good.

• 50:18Speaker 04

  It is stunning.

• 50:19Speaker 05

  I, it's, it's quite tasty.

• 50:21Speaker 04

  Delicious.

• 50:22Speaker 05

  I'd say.

• 50:23Speaker 04

  It's hot. Do you find it hot?

• 50:25Speaker 05

  I mean, there's, there's.

• 50:26Speaker 04

  No, no, you haven't got to the end. I'm telling you, there's a kick at the end.

• 50:28Speaker 05

  There's two, there's two hundred twists of pepper in there. Okay. Along with the peppercorns as well. I know, I really had to work hard at this, Malala, I just want you to know. My wrists are exhausted. Um, but no, I think I would do this recipe again, Feester.

• 50:45Speaker 04

  How many times did you see Taylor Swift?

• 50:49Speaker 05

  Oh, just once.

• 50:50Speaker 04

  Only once. Have you been to the Oasis concert?

• 50:53Jessie Ware?

  Yeah, it was so good, wasn't it?

• 50:56Speaker 05

  It was so good. I went to see it in Dublin. It was amazing. Yeah.

• 51:00Speaker 04

  Did you wear a bucket hat?

• 51:02Speaker 05

  Of course.

• 51:04Jessie Ware?

  It was, it was.

• 51:05Speaker 05

  You have to.

• 51:06Speaker 04

  Do you, does everyone wear a hat?

• 51:08Jessie Ware?

  I actually didn't and I felt very left out.

• 51:10Speaker 05

  Oh, okay.

• 51:11Jessie Ware?

  I didn't have any.

• 51:12Speaker 05

  How did you feel then?

• 51:13Jessie Ware?

  Malala just looked me up and down and went.

• 51:16Speaker 04

  Call yourself a fan.

• 51:17Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 51:20Jessie Ware?

  So we've got the dessert. It looks beautiful. What is it, Mum?

• 51:24Speaker 04

  It's a Mithai mango cake. Mithai, I think, means Indian sweet.

• 51:30Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 51:31Speaker 04

  Or it's sweet Indian for sweet.

• 51:33Speaker 05

  Yes, India, Pakistan.

• 51:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:35Speaker 05

  Or South Asia, yes.

• 51:36Speaker 04

  And because Malala likes mango, that's why I made it. And let's hope it tastes.

• 51:42Jessie Ware?

  Really good, Mum.

• 51:43Speaker 04

  It does look good, but you never know.

• 51:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, I can't stop looking at it. I've been staring at this the whole time.

• 51:50Jessie Ware?

  Okay, last supper. Starter.

• 51:52Speaker 05

  Starter? Hash browns. I think hash brown would be good.

• 51:56Jessie Ware?

  Okay.

• 51:57Speaker 05

  I know it's odd, I think it's.

• 51:59Jessie Ware?

  Um, are you getting them from a particular establishment?

• 52:02Speaker 05

  I think it's from college.

• 52:04Jessie Ware?

  Okay, oh, what, from the like, the lunch hall?

• 52:06Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's, it's the dining hall. It's a buffet kind of a option and I would always choose hash brown.

• 52:16Jessie Ware?

  I love that. Okay, so we're starting with hash browns. Where are we going after that for your main?

• 52:21Speaker 05

  For my main, I'm gonna have my mom's rice and curry. It's basmati rice. It's delicious. And then the curry is chicken curry and I, and I love the sauce. I just, I just love the mix of the two.

• 52:37Jessie Ware?

  Can I ask about your grandma who you speak about so beautifully in the book?

• 52:41Speaker 04

  Abai, is it Abai?

• 52:43Speaker 05

  Abai.

• 52:43Speaker 04

  Abai. Mean grandma.

• 52:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's a nickname for grandma.

• 52:47Jessie Ware?

  Did, was she a good cook?

• 52:50Speaker 05

  She was a good cook, yes.

• 52:51Jessie Ware?

  What's a memorable dish that your grandma made?

• 52:53Speaker 05

  It was always some chicken curry.

• 52:55Jessie Ware?

  Okay.

• 52:55Speaker 05

  With um bread made from maize flour. I don't know what's it called. Is it corn flour? Is it different?

• 53:04Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 53:05Speaker 05

  It was like that flour, there would be, you know, spinach, like a dish with spinach and sometimes meat. Um she loved making chicken and just fresh yogurt. So they had fresh milk from, because you know, my grandfather and my uncles had cows and buffaloes. So yeah, fresh milk and then fresh yogurt and fresh cream. It's delicious.

• 53:29Jessie Ware?

  Mmm. Okay, so we've got hash brown, your mum's chicken and rice.

• 53:36Jessie Ware?

  Pudding, where are we going?

• 53:38Speaker 05

  I am not so picky about pudding, so.

• 53:41Jessie Ware?

  Why? Because you like them all?

• 53:42Speaker 05

  I like them all. I love chocolate cake and all of those things, but I love any kind of cake. But my safe choice would be mangoes. I'll just take mangoes because mangoes make me happy, so happy. And this is a perfect dessert, by the way, the one you have made.

• 54:01Jessie Ware?

  This is really good.

• 54:02Speaker 05

  It's like everything I want. It's like cream and a cake and it has mangoes in it.

• 54:08Jessie Ware?

  Not too dry. No, it's lovely. It's gorgeous.

• 54:11Speaker 05

  It's amazing.

• 54:12Jessie Ware?

  Can you taste the cardamom? I can't. I can't at all. I think two spoons would have been.

• 54:17Speaker 05

  You're asking the wrong person. I feel like I'm in a MasterChef show right now. What can I do?

• 54:25Jessie Ware?

  I'd love to see you on Celebrity MasterChef. No, I wouldn't. Or Celebrity Bake Off. I'd be really interested to see what happened. Um and then drink of choice tea. I love it.

• 54:38Speaker 05

  English breakfast tea, always.

• 54:40Jessie Ware?

  Um yeah, that's my favourite. I have so loved meeting you and chatting and I loved reading your books so much.

• 54:50Speaker 05

  Me too.

• 54:51Jessie Ware?

  Can I ask you, before we let you go, what is a nostalgic taste that can transport you back somewhere?

• 54:59Speaker 05

  There are a few.

• 55:00Jessie Ware?

  Mm hmm.

• 55:01Speaker 05

  I remember this memory, spending time with my, my friends, where they would have

• 55:10Speaker 05

  bread from the day before, that they would heat up the next day. And they would have this tomato paste together with mint and a bit of salt. And they would have that bread with that tomato sauce or something. And it was, it was not, it was not like a dish that your family would make for you. It's just like when girls would get together, they would sort of pretend like it was their own meal. I would say, we would not have it as a meal, but just the fact like, oh, is there any leftover bread from like last night? Let's heat it up and let's get some tomato and like, uh, you know, mash it or um, mix it up with mint and and a bit of salt and let's just have it as our own meal and like pretend we are good cooks or something.

• 55:55Jessie Ware?

  And these are your friends back in Pakistan?

• 55:57Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 55:57Jessie Ware?

  I love that.

• 55:58Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 55:59Jessie Ware?

  Have you ever tried to make it since being in the UK?

• 56:03Speaker 05

  No, and I have this, um. I hope I can cook one day. That is my, my dream to be able to cook one day. I think it's a skill everybody should have. We should also be rethinking about how we see cooking being associated with gender. It should not be. Girls and boys, everybody should be cooking because it's a skill. It's like cleaning, using how to use your dishwasher and you know, anything like if you want to, to live a life of independence, you should be able to do these basic things. So I'm so glad like we're redefining these things and, but yeah, I love the eating part much more than the cooking part. And I love everybody who can cook and who can make these delicious meals for us.

• 56:48Jessie Ware?

  Do you do karaoke?

• 56:50Speaker 05

  I'm so bad at karaoke.

• 56:51Jessie Ware?

  Which one would you choose? Which is your best song then?

• 56:55Speaker 05

  Love Story by Taylor Swift.

• 56:56Speaker 04

  Oh, is that funny? I did that with my daughter on holiday.

• 57:01Speaker 05

  And I love it because my best friend Muniba and I used to sing it together in Pakistan. And I will have this memory forever in my mind where after the Taliban were removed from our town, we went on this school trip and we were in this beautiful part in the middle of the mountains with a waterfall behind us. And we went and stood on this big stone and we said we wanted to sing a song. And we started singing Love Story by Taylor Swift.

• 57:34Speaker 05

  I don't know how we had so much confidence that we managed to sing it in front of so many people. But for us, it was a way of expressing ourselves. And there's nothing more precious to girls who can be themselves, live and enjoy a moment and let themselves feel free.

• 57:56Speaker 04

  Thank you, Malala. Such a lovely story.

• 57:58Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 57:59Jessie Ware?

  Thank you. I wish you all the best with Memoir. I'm sure it's about to be a really busy time for you going and promoting it. But thank you for taking the time to do this podcast. It's been such a pleasure to chat to you and just to kind of get to know you even more. And I appreciate how open you've been in the book, but also today. So thank you.

• 58:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, thank you. But I'm not leaving you till I finish my dessert.

• 58:20Jessie Ware?

  No, you're absolutely not.

• 58:22Speaker 05

  I know you're trying to end it, but.

• 58:24Speaker 04

  We're gonna go do Love Story in the other room. I'm gonna put it on.

• 58:42Speaker 04

  Well, that was fun.

• 58:43Speaker 05

  That was so gorgeous. Malala.

• 58:47Jessie Ware?

  I love you and also I'd like to go to a Taylor Swift concert with you and also I'd really like to play paddle with you. She was fantastic.

• 58:55Speaker 04

  She was just wonderful. She's so young. You forget she's only 28.

• 59:02Jessie Ware?

  I know. Total honour to have Malala on Table Manners. She loved the food. The food was good.

• 59:09Speaker 04

  It was fabulous.

• 59:10Jessie Ware?

  Easter belfry, you are.

• 59:12Speaker 04

  I need that book.

• 59:13Jessie Ware?

  You are fantastic. That's fusayo. I'm really sorry if I'm not saying that correctly.

• 59:17Speaker 04

  It's probably fusion because A O in Brazilian is a nuh on sound and it's probably fusion but spelt the Brazilian way darling.

• 59:28Jessie Ware?

  But it's out now, I think. And it was the Spatchcock chicken kind of coke with dendé coconut and peppercorns. It was really delightful.

• 59:39Speaker 04

  Gorgeous.

• 59:40Jessie Ware?

  And the coleslaw was really nice with it. And that's from another recipe in her book. So I'd say go and get the book.

• 59:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 59:45Jessie Ware?

  And that cake was excellent.

• 59:47Speaker 04

  Did you like it?

• 59:48Jessie Ware?

  She was very happy about the mangoes.

• 59:49Speaker 04

  Yeah. And just thought she loves mangoes, that girl.

• 59:53Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 59:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 59:54Jessie Ware?

  I'd say we did quite well. Well done, Lenny. Malala's book, Finding My Way, is out now and it's really wonderful.

• 1:00:01Speaker 04

  It's a lovely book.

• 1:00:02Jessie Ware?

  So go and read it. And you can also watch Bread and Roses, which she executive produced with Jennifer Lawrence, which is about three incredible Afghani women. I want to know more and more about Malala. I love her. I think what she's doing with Malala Fund is amazing and feel really, really honoured that she came over.

• 1:00:20Speaker 04

  If only she could sort the world out. The Malala way.

• 1:00:24Jessie Ware?

  She's trying.

• 1:00:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:00:25Jessie Ware?

  We'll see you next week.

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