Saying no: more boundaries, less people pleasing!

How good are you at saying no to people, plans, and dynamics that don’t serve you...? Just in time for the festive season (A huge work load! Time with family! Social events!) Fearne is reflecting on Happy Place chats that’ll help you stop people pleasing and start setting boundaries... In this episode: Melissa Urban is the queen of boundaries – what are they, and how do we set them? Life coach Michelle Elman talks about why we’re often reluctant to set boundaries, and Kirsty Gallagher explains how to take ‘radical responsibility’ for our own lives. Plus, there’s LeAnn Rimes on navigating difficult family dynamics, Grace Beverley on setting boundaries for work life balance, and Michelle Keegan on saying no to social events because sometimes we just want to be happy little hermits at home! If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Melissa Urban https://pod.fo/e/172e47 Michelle Elman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGEERBBQ9Js Kirsty Gallagher https://pod.fo/e/226c97 LeAnn Rimes https://pod.fo/e/20397f Grace Beverley https://pod.fo/e/24b043 Michelle Keegan https://pod.fo/e/211304 Tell self-limiting beliefs to bugger off https://pod.fo/e/263ecb Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To mark it, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:29Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place. Today, how to say no. Guys, I think we need this one. I really think we need this one. So many of us find ourselves people pleasing and not setting boundaries. We need this.

• 0:47Speaker 02

  I think about boundaries as limits that you set around how you allow other people to engage with you.

• 0:54Speaker 03

  I have my boundaries with my parents. I know what I can take and how I can deal with them for my own, you know, mental and physical wellbeing.

• 1:01Speaker 04

  Running a company, you can't have a certain amount of boundaries because if it needs you, it needs you. But I also think that you can't use that as an excuse to not set any boundaries the rest of the time.

• 1:10Speaker 05

  Now, I don't go anywhere and that is through choice. I like doing what I like to do and I like being at home.

• 1:16Fearne Cotton?

  Right, how good are you at setting boundaries and saying no to things? Some of you might be brilliant at it and if so, well, you might not need to listen to this, or you might find it interesting anyway. But I'm sure there are many people out there that, like me, have struggled with this. It's a topic that I talk about a lot, but particularly around this time of year, when work can feel really busy, there's lots of festive social events going on and you may well be spending extended periods of time with your family over the holidays, which can be lovely, but also, of course, challenging. So yeah, Christmas time, you know, it can be gorgeous and smelling of cinnamon and twinkly lights and all that jazz, but it can also be really tricky because we are sort of forced

• 1:59Fearne Cotton?

  into these situations that we might not otherwise be at other points of the year. And that might mean having lots of members of the family together. Sometimes that can cause conflict. Or sometimes you know that two family members, you might be in that dynamic, don't particularly rub along well together and that can be really tricky at this time of year. Maybe you've got a blended family like I have, so there's all sorts of to-ing and fro-ing as to who's gonna be doing what each year at Christmas. It's bloody complicated. Also, when you bring work into the equation, I can be a right workaholic and I can definitely find it hard to switch off when I do have downtime.

• 2:41Fearne Cotton?

  And I'll think to myself, well, I could be cracking on with writing or brainstorming something or getting some emails done. And sometimes we just have to say no and actually set a boundary and just stop, actually, which I can be quite terrified about. I think the other thing that needs to come into this conversation is gut instinct because we live in a really noisy world where we're continuously bombarded by exterior opinion and news and ideas and shoulds and shouldn'ts. And we actually start to lose that connection with what we know to be true. It can be really hard to get in touch with your gut reaction to things, but it is usually

• 3:25Fearne Cotton?

  there, buried beneath loads of other shit. Also, you might find this time of year that you're a bit burnt out. Oh, God, I definitely am, without a doubt. All self-inflicted because I'm trying to do too much as normal and do extra special things for the kids for Christmas and get everything work-wise tied up so I can take a bit of time off. And yeah, I'm definitely slightly on my knees at this time of the year. I actually wrote a novel, which covers a lot of these subjects. It's called Scripted. It came out this year in June. And because I feel so strongly about this topic, I really wanted to create a character, Jade, who finds it excruciating to say no and excruciating to set boundaries.

• 4:09Fearne Cotton?

  And she has to learn, oof, some really tricky lessons the hard way. I won't say anymore because I would love you to read it and enjoy it if this topic feels relevant to you too. So look, today we're going to learn a bit more about boundaries from some brilliant Happy Place guests. Oh, Melissa Urban. Blimmin' heck. I, she, it was a masterclass talking to Melissa Urban. I've never met someone with such brilliantly robust boundaries. She is the queen of boundaries. She's going to tell us what they are and how we set them. We're also going to chat to life coach, Michelle Elman. She talks about why we're often reluctant to set boundaries. That's part of our YouTube series, What Is How To? And the brilliant

• 4:53Fearne Cotton?

  Kirsty Gallagher, who we love, a moon mentor and soul guide, that's her actual job, everyone. She chats about radical responsibility. Then Leanne Rimes on navigating those pesky family dynamics. Grace Beverley, who's obviously a hugely successful influencer and entrepreneur, on setting boundaries for work-life balance. And Michelle Keegan on saying no to social events because some of us just want to be happy little hermits at home.

• 5:21Speaker 02

  Verizon knows that holiday math can be complicated.

• 5:24Speaker 06

  Okay, let's see, we've got the four kids, four gifts each, six teacher gifts? Wait, oh, what did we get Andy? And the dogs. Oh, can't forget the dogs.

• 5:35Speaker 02

  Know what doesn't need math? Simplicity Plan from Verizon. One plan, one price. Just $30 a line per month for you or the whole family. The holidays are complicated. Shopping our best deals and switching to Verizon is simple. For new customers, $30 per line includes auto pay and switch discount. Additional taxes, fees and terms apply.

• 5:51Speaker 07

  This message is brought to you by the Capital One Venture X Card. Venture X offers the premium benefits you expect, like a $300 annual Capital One travel credit for less than you expect. Elevate your earn with unlimited double miles on every purchase, bringing you one step closer to your next dream destination. Plus, enjoy access to over 1,000 airport lounges worldwide. The Capital One Venture X Card. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. Lounge access is subject to change. See CapitalOne.com for details. At Humana, our Medicare Advantage plans are easy to understand and easy on your wallet. Like offering more benefits than you'd get from original Medicare alone, and including dental,

• 6:31Speaker 03

  Vision and hearing coverage in every plan. And the best part is every plan has a $0 or low monthly plan premium, which makes it easier to save, too. So this Medicare planning season, plan well with Humana. Learn more at gethumana.com. Humana is a Medicare Advantage HMO and PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 6:55Fearne Cotton?

  Right, let's crack on. Here's the show.

• 7:19Speaker 02

  So I think about boundaries as limits that you've set around how you allow other people to engage with you. So I think one of the common misconceptions about boundaries is that they're about controlling other people or telling other people what to do. And that's not at all the case. A boundary tells other people the actions that you will take to keep yourself safe and healthy and preserve the relationship.

• 7:43Fearne Cotton?

  Which sounds amazing. And as we know, there are so many people out there, thousands of whom you've spoken to about boundaries and who you've helped guide and coach. I am, I'm very much someone that still needs to work on this one. I'm definitely getting better with age, but it's something historically I've really struggled with. Why do you think so many people struggle with this in their lives? And why do we end up so boundary-less?

• 8:09Speaker 02

  Well, you know, I think women in particular, and then especially moms, have historically been conditioned not to have boundaries by the patriarchy, by stereotypically rigid gender roles, by religious influence, by diet culture. We have been taught to be small and to be compliant and to put everyone else's needs and comfort above our own. And when we do advocate for our own needs or our own feelings, we're told we're selfish or we're called far worse words. So we have been societally conditioned not to have boundaries. And I think they're very rarely modeled for us. You know, they're not taught in schools, they're not taught in the workplace.

• 8:51Speaker 02

  My parents and their parents didn't model healthy boundaries for me. So it's very much one of those. You know, life skills like credit management or time management that nobody teaches you, but you realize becomes incredibly important. Once you become an adult and often only in moments of crisis, do we realize that this is a skill set we really need to build?

• 9:12Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, my God. I mean, so massively, I could pull out so many different scenarios in my life over the years where I haven't put boundaries in place. And it always ends up in disaster of varying degrees. But I think one, if we start at the sort of less severe outcomes of not having boundaries, it's due to us simply being people pleasers. And I can, again, put my hand up and say, I've definitely been a people pleaser during probably the earlier years of my life, maybe a little less so now. And you say in your book, which I have right here, The Book of Boundaries, you are not a people pleaser. And we people please because, I don't know, maybe we don't want to be disliked by the other person.

• 9:56Fearne Cotton?

  We don't want to be rejected, or we fear that we'll upset or hurt the other person. There is a huge amount of discomfort when setting a boundary. How do you get over that?

• 10:06Speaker 02

  There is a huge amount of discomfort. And again, we have been conditioned to be nice. I was always the good girl in school. I was the quiet one. I didn't cause trouble. I got good grades. And as we get older, we feel like if we are nice, if we tell the other person what they want to hear, or we sacrifice our own comfort or feelings to keep them comfortable, that that will make them happy and then by default that they will like us, that they will approve of us. And now, our entire existence, everything I do and say and my behavior is dictated by what someone else expects of me. And that's a really tenuous place to be. And it is incredibly uncomfortable to advocate for yourself, to say, these are my needs, these are my feelings. And if I express this limit to you clearly and kindly,

• 10:51Speaker 02

  and you can meet me in these limits, then our relationship will be so much more open and so much more trustworthy and more respectful. And I won't have this dread and anxiety and be carrying around this sort of sense of avoidance. But what I say to people often is, yes, the idea of setting a boundary is uncomfortable, but so is what you are doing now. Holding your tongue and keeping the peace, never ever saying no, and holding that resentment and doing things begrudgingly and avoiding certain people and that sense of dread, that's hard too. And that pattern doesn't get you anywhere. Whereas expressing a boundary has the very real potential of changing that pattern forever and helping you release all of those negative feelings.

• 11:35Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, like you say there, right? So I think many people listening to this will, will really find that story familiar of being the good kid in class or being the good sibling in the family, the peacemaker, whatever, and there being an element of reward to that. It feels like that has just been exacerbated because of social media. And we now see that if you play by the rules, if you work to the algorithms, if you keep your mouth shut and go along with what is favorable, you will be liked, you will get likes, we will be able to quantify how liked you are. So if anything, we're even more sort of brainwashed by it today than ever on a level

• 12:17Fearne Cotton?

  that's so subtle, we, we're not like, that's kind of almost me working this out on the spot now, like, wait a minute, this is just like everywhere that we're being bombarded with this message that if you're, if you're nice and you're good and you keep your mouth shut, everyone's gonna like you.

• 12:32Speaker 02

  Yes, if you work the system, you will be liked and people will approve of you. Except the system sucks. The system keeps us playing small and doesn't ask us to add ourselves to our own list and insists that we continue to put everyone else's needs and comfort ahead of our own. So I don't want to work the system.

• 12:51Speaker 04

  So the simplest boundary and the first boundary we all know is the word no. So if you put a kid in the arms of a stranger and they're not happy, they will scream. Even if they don't have the vocabulary, they know where their boundaries lie. And then we learn something called theory of mind, which means that you become aware that other people can think. So not only can you think, but you know someone else can think. And if someone else can think... And they can think badly about you. And that's where saying the word no becomes a little bit more complicated because you don't want other people to think badly about you.

• 13:21Fearne Cotton?

  People pleasing is the worst.

• 13:23Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:24Fearne Cotton?

  But I think most people out there, I mean, certainly I fall into this category, can be a real people pleaser. We want to be liked, we want people around us to feel comfortable. So putting boundaries in place can often challenge those fears.

• 13:37Speaker 04

  Oh, absolutely. People pleasing is the opposite to setting boundaries. And I was a people pleaser and actually, if I'm being really honest, I was a pushover at times. Because it's that thing which women are taught to do, which is put everyone else first. And then if you have time and energy left, then you can do self-love, then you can do self-care. But by the time you've taken care of everyone else, there is no time and energy left. And so you're always bottom of the list. And if you ever stand up for yourself, you ever communicate your needs, you're told you're difficult, you're harsh, you're direct. All of these words are words that dissuade women from communicating in a way they want to communicate. And actually communicating how they feel in the moment.

• 14:14Fearne Cotton?

  Let's get to basics because it's really hard to start setting boundaries when you haven't before. It's a totally alien concept. It feels deeply uncomfortable, emotionally, physically. The whole thing is torture.

• 14:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I think there are two routes. Some people find it easiest to set boundaries with strangers. So it's the waiter who asks if your food is good, or the hairdresser who asks if you like the haircut. Or some people find it easiest to start with the people closest to you. So your best friend, someone who you can tell anything to. And whoever you find it easiest to and the area of life you find it easiest, start with that. But I always want people to remember that setting boundaries is like learning a language. And the first time you do it, it's never going to be perfect. So trying to set a perfect language or be perfect at communication in general, often is the obstacle that stops us from starting in the first place. So even if you set the boundary in a clumsy, messy way, saying something is always better than saying nothing.

• 15:09Fearne Cotton?

  Obviously, you've got to deal with the other person. So like you said, especially when it's a new concept, when you start saying no, or you start explaining how you feel in certain scenarios, the other person is going to react in any which way. It's totally out of our control. They could be totally pissed off, they could be angry, they could be quite dismissive and go very quiet. There's a whole plethora of options with that one. How do you not make that personal? How do you let them have their reaction without you then crumbling? Because I think if you are already a people pleaser, that's going to be a very hard thing to mitigate.

• 15:43Speaker 04

  Yeah. You have to remember their response is not your responsibility and that no matter how polite you set a boundary, someone is still going to think you're rude. No matter how kind, soft, gentle, they can still think you're mean. And a lot of the times, their perception of your boundary is their own relationship with the boundary. I remember a time in my life when I didn't have any boundaries. And every time someone set a boundary with me, I thought they were angry, I thought they were harsh, mean, aggressive. The moment I started setting boundaries, I was like, oh, thank you so much for letting me know. Oh, I'm so proud of you. Thanks for telling me. It's all about whether they have a good relationship with their own boundaries.

• 16:18Fearne Cotton?

  Do you know what? Everything you're saying rings so true because I have certainly seen those cycles in my own life with feeling like I'm stuck in a similar position, but with different people, a different circumstance. I've brought my baggage to a new circumstance. And I think, you know, I'm very honest on this podcast. I tell everybody what I'm going through and how I'm feeling without too much, too much worry or shame. But I end up going, right, I need to do more for this person, help more, give more, and I throw my everything into it, but without any boundaries in place. And then I go, I feel resentful. I don't like this anymore. I didn't sign up for this. That cycle has, it's got a lot better. But for years, that played on a

• 17:01Fearne Cotton?

  loop and got me in real pickles. And I ended up actually turning into a person in this cycle that I didn't like very much. I didn't want to act in a certain way, but I wasn't making those essential changes to break that pattern and break that cycle. So I think it's important to say that once you've set these intentions, you can't just think, oh, the moon's going to sort all that out. No, no, no. It's hard work. This is then where hard work starts. You've got to put the work in. And that's again, why lunar cycles are so beautiful, because you set the intentions on the new moon. You've then got two weeks as the moon waxes and gets bigger and you can watch the moon do it in the sky. You can, we, I honestly even believe that we've all probably looked at a full moon in the sky and it takes your breath away. Oh, it's gorgeous.

• 17:44Fearne Cotton?

  Cause I do think the moon reminds us of where we came from. It reminds us that we're part of something greater. It reminds us that we're all connected. And so as the moon then waxes and grows bigger, in those two weeks, exactly what you just said, as the moon is growing in the sky, she's giving us the light and the life and the energy to do what we need to do to get what we want. So if, for example, it's the new job, send out the CVs, talk to people, let people know that you're looking, do anything and everything you can to let yourself be seen and shine like the moon is doing and just say yes, say yes. Do anything you can to get towards where you want to go. So those intentions you set, keep them in mind, keep them as your true north.

• 18:25Fearne Cotton?

  And intention's also really beautiful because without intentions, it's like if I try to get you to go on a journey now with no map, you just end up wandering. You're just wandering, you don't know where you're going. Someone might say, hey Fern, come this way. You go that way with them. You don't like it. You go that way with them. When we've got an intention, it's a guiding force. Your thing today has been a lot of picking on yourself. You're not doing good enough. You're not doing this. So one of your intentions then when we get the new moon on Sunday might be, I want to be kinder to myself. I want to give myself a little bit of a break. Yeah. I want to learn just to let myself off the hook a little bit more. Those might be one of your intentions. I intend over this next lunar cycle to be kind. Yeah. So then when you notice that little voice, you can catch it and be like, hey, no, no, no, we're not doing that today. Hmm.

• 19:08Fearne Cotton?

  And then what we want to do then is we want to almost flip the switch. So when you're having that thought about you've not done enough, you want to sit there and consciously find, well, actually you have done enough because already today you've done, I mean, you told me when we arrived what you've already done today. What you've done today, a normal human couldn't do in a week. Like I know I'm packing it in, but I, I, I definitely get hung up on detail and like pushing myself to the point where. You know, looking for that elusive perfect that doesn't exist in all capacities. I think you're absolutely right. My, I may have assumed that my new moon excavation and subsequent intention should be to do better. But actually, I'm listening to you going, no, it's, I need to be a bit nicer to myself.

• 19:49Speaker 00

  Be kinder, just be kinder, take the pressure off.

• 19:52Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I'm not very good at that.

• 19:53Speaker 00

  Don't search for perfect.

• 19:54Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 19:55Speaker 00

  And then you're going to achieve that. Tell yourself what you're doing well. I mean, an amazing thing to do is at the end of every day, look at yourself in the mirror and be like, you did that really well today.

• 20:02Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 20:03Speaker 00

  You did that really well today. Actually, you did that thing and it was quite brave and you did that. We don't celebrate ourselves enough.

• 20:08Fearne Cotton?

  No, because I think also society has created this bizarre infrastructure where we're constantly waiting for someone else to tell us that. To tell us you did good or even what you're doing is okay. I think we're losing our confidence and our intuition to go, no, I'm doing all right. And I think, you know, some of that is very superficial in terms of how advertising works and just the world that we exist in with messaging. And you could try this and you'll be a better person or whatever. So we've lost that sense to just be all right with who we are. Or, or next level up, like you're saying, to celebrate ourselves. We, we wait for occasions like birthdays or weddings to do it, but this can be a, a moon triggered thing.

• 20:54Speaker 00

  So every full moon, celebrate yourself. Look at the first two weeks of the cycle. What did I do well? What did I achieve? What did I say yes to? Where was I brave? Where did I go after something I wanted? Where was I a bit kinder to myself? What have I done? Let me celebrate that. And then on the flip side, the full moon will show you where you got in your own way. Because 99.999% of the time in life, it's us that's in the way.

• 21:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, we love to blame other people.

• 21:21Speaker 00

  We love to.

• 21:21Fearne Cotton?

  It was you, it's you, you caused all my agony. That's why I didn't succeed or do whatever it was I went to do.

• 21:27Speaker 00

  But when. We do that, we lose all power to change it. If it's your fault, I'm feeling a certain way. I have to wait for you to do something differently before I can feel better. Because when I retake about that power and I go, well, what was my part to play in this? How did I allow what fun supposedly said or did today to kind of trigger me? What was it in me that it upset me? It reminded me of that time when I didn't get picked for that team in school? And it really brought all that back up again. I then have the power to change that because I've taken back the responsibility for it.

• 21:57Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 21:58Speaker 00

  And so even in that, when we allow it to be their fault, his fault, her fault, parents' fault, jobs' fault, bosses' fault. It's that we have to wait for that thing to change then. When we take back that power and go, okay, what was my part to play in this? And we take that real radical responsibility, then we've got the power to change it. And so when we sit with that and we go, okay, yeah, I didn't say yes to going to that party because I thought when I got there, no one would speak to me and people wouldn't like me. I didn't go for that job because I kind of thought I wouldn't be able to do it and they probably wouldn't want somebody like me. So I didn't send in the application and then I didn't make that phone call because, well, I was just sabotaging a little bit that day, so I didn't. We can start to see then when we're getting in the way.

• 22:42Speaker 07

  Verizon knows that holiday math can be complicated.

• 22:45Speaker 06

  Okay, let's see, we got the four kids, four gifts each, six teacher gifts? Uh huh. Wait, oh, what did we get in Sandy? And the dogs, oh, can't forget the dogs.

• 22:56Speaker 07

  Know what doesn't need math? Simplicity Plan from Verizon. One plan, one price. Just thirty dollars a line per month for you or the whole family. The holidays are complicated. Shopping our best deals and switching to Verizon is simple. For new customers, thirty dollars per line includes auto pay and switch discount. Additional taxes, fees and terms apply. This message is brought to you by the Capital One Venture X Card. Venture X offers the premium benefits you expect, like a three hundred dollar annual Capital One travel credit for less than you expect. Elevate your earn with unlimited double miles on every purchase, bringing you one step closer to your next dream destination. Plus, enjoy access to over one thousand airport lounges worldwide. The Capital One Venture X Card. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. Lounge access is subject to change.

• 23:41Speaker 07

  See CapitalOne.com for details. At Humana, our Medicare Advantage plans are easy to understand and easy on your wallet, like offering more benefits.

• 23:49Speaker 03

  than you'd get from original Medicare alone and including dental, vision and hearing coverage in every plan. And the best part is every plan has a $0 or low monthly plan premium, which makes it easier to save too. So this Medicare planning season, plan well with Humana. Learn more at gethumana.com. Humana is a Medicare Advantage HMO and PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 24:17Speaker 06

  Check engine, ABS or maintenance light on? Take the guesswork out of your warning lights with O'Reilly Veriscan. The service is free and provides a report with solutions verified by ASE certified master technicians. And if you need help, we could recommend a shop for you. Ask for O'Reilly Veriscan today.

• 24:46Fearne Cotton?

  Right, let's get back to it. Here's Leanne Rimes, Grace Beverly and Michelle Keegan.

• 24:51Speaker 03

  My stepdad actually just passed away and my mom is now alone. And so we're learning how to navigate, you know, the new, our new dynamic. And yeah, I mean, it's possible. And it's, it's also possible to still, like, I still have my own, you know, I have my boundaries with my parents. I know what I can, how, how and how much I can take and how I can deal with them for my own, you know, mental and physical wellbeing. And I can, I give what I can. And yeah, we all, you know, look, they were learning too, as parents, like we all, our parents all screw us up at some point. And that's, that's why I don't have children of my own.

• 25:28Fearne Cotton?

  You've got stepkids.

• 25:29Speaker 03

  I do. I have two stepkids that hopefully I haven't screwed up too much.

• 25:32Fearne Cotton?

  And it brings stuff up. Like, I'm a stepmom and I've, I've got kids as well.

• 25:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:36Fearne Cotton?

  All of it, all, you know, I was a step, I was a stepmom before I had my kids.

• 25:40Speaker 03

  Okay. Oh, wow.

• 25:41Fearne Cotton?

  And I think that you just go, wow, okay, I see how hard this is. And I, you know, thought a lot about especially how much my mom. Did, and rather than focus on the things that might have been challenging, I've actually got deep appreciation for so much of it. And I think it does change your perspective.

• 26:02Speaker 03

  It does. How old are your kids?

• 26:03Fearne Cotton?

  So we've got Honey, who's eight, Rex, who's ten, Lola's eighteen, Arthur's twenty-one.

• 26:09Speaker 03

  Oh, wow.

• 26:10Fearne Cotton?

  So we've got a whole spectrum.

• 26:11Speaker 03

  You really do. Yeah, my stepsons are now twenty and sixteen and they were first two and six when they were in my life.

• 26:18Fearne Cotton?

  Wow.

• 26:19Speaker 03

  Um, yeah, it's, it has been amazing to, to help raise them. But, you know, it's, I think I had this, like, I had this thought of like, I, I have, there's so much trauma in my lineage and so much trauma in my life. It's like, I wasn't ready to kind of pass down with my own children, like, um, you know, through the womb. And I know how much gets passed down through the womb. So it was like, okay, I wasn't, I wasn't ready yet. Now, at this point in my life, I think I'm, would be totally ready for that. I just don't know if I want to.

• 26:46Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, well, that's up to you.

• 26:47Speaker 03

  We have two that are, you know, almost like completely grown and it's like, Eddie and I look at each other and we see kids. I'm like, oh, my God, they're so cute. We'd love to. And then, like, do we really want to start over again?

• 26:57Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 26:58Speaker 03

  You know, um, I think I'm, for me, like, you know, we talked about not having a childhood. It's like, I'm kind of, I've been mothering myself for a really long time and, and with my stepsons. And I, I feel like I've had, I feel like there's been a lot of mothering going on, even though I haven't ever had one of my own.

• 27:14Fearne Cotton?

  Well, you're so right. I think, you know, this is something that you again stumble upon when you're doing any sort of work on yourself, inventory, is you've got to start parenting yourself.

• 27:24Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 27:24Fearne Cotton?

  You have to, because especially when you're a grown ass adult and your parents aren't parenting you, you've got to parent yourself through challenging times. And it's something that isn't really talked about, or we're not really taught that at a certain age, you're going to have to start parenting yourself and knowing how to get yourself through situations. It's, um, it's a tricky one, that.

• 27:46Speaker 03

  It is a tricky one. And that's where, you know, you talk about being softer and kinder to yourself. It's like, you know, where your parents fell short, um, you know, we, we have those. From a very early age, you know, everybody who was around us, um, from parents to society, that those become our, our deep embedded narratives. And so it's like, okay, well, where they fell short, how can I now correct that for myself? And be kinder and gentler and, and more loving. And so, yeah, it's, that's a daily practice.

• 28:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 28:20Speaker 03

  It really is.

• 28:20Fearne Cotton?

  It sure is. And with stepparenting, how have you approached that, knowing, you know, like you say, we've all, our parents have all imprinted something on us, whether negative, positive, bit of both. And also the sort of blended family dynamic is a tricky one.

• 28:36Speaker 03

  It's so tricky.

• 28:37Fearne Cotton?

  It's a really tricky one. And you've got to navigate it, setting boundaries. And I think, looking back to the start of my own stepparenting journey, I definitely didn't set enough. I didn't feel confident enough to say what I was comfortable with or how I wanted to do things. I think that took a lot of time and incremental sort of building of confidence. How did you begin that experience of stepparenting? And how do you think it's changed over the years?

• 29:03Speaker 03

  Oh, it's totally changed since I was so young. I was in my late twenties and, um, yeah, I don't know if you felt this, but at the beginning for me, like the first three years, I felt kind of like an outcast, you know, in, in my own family. And so it was, you, you don't set a lot of boundaries, healthy boundaries, because you just want, once again, go back to, you just want everyone to like you and you just want everybody, everything to be calm. And then you realize like, I mean, that's just a crazy dream. That's not ever going to happen. Like, here's all of these different personalities and you just kind of have to respect people's ups and downs. And know, you know, for me, it was like, okay, how can I show up and be loving and accepting, even when people are throwing tantrums and, you know, there's issues and kids are throwing tantrums,

• 29:48Speaker 03

  parents are throwing tantrums, like it becomes, you just, for me, it was like, okay, how do I just come up, show up and be as accepting? And also, like you said, set boundaries and be like, you know, there is a certain level of respect that has to happen for us to be able to, to be blended. And still to this day, like there's, that, that's hard. It's hard.

• 30:11Fearne Cotton?

  So hard.

• 30:11Speaker 03

  It's, you know, cause um, those boundaries can be crossed and you have to kind of. I think you have to reassess. It's just kind of like situational and, you know, as the kids get older, like they, they kind of go in between and in and out of, you know, households and things and they, yeah, they make, they make up their own mind about the world that they want to live in and, yeah, and they're, they're great kids. Like, we've all done a really good job raising these boys and, and yeah, you're right, like it, it's, it's interesting. They were really triggering for me.

• 30:46Speaker 03

  They, they showed me all the places in which I needed some healing and it was, Yeah. it would have been so easy. I think kids are great. They do that with, Good teachers. Yeah. But the first, like, three or four years, I remember having this one moment where I remember very clearly, like, seeing how they, like, the dynamic that we all had together was,

• 31:12Speaker 03

  was similar to like my childhood and I could see very clearly who was triggering what and what I needed to heal. And there was a moment where I was like, I can't blame these people for my issues. And some people don't get there, you know? Some people don't, but for me, I was like, if I'm gonna have, if I'm gonna be in this situation and this relationship, I have to handle my own stuff so that I can deal with what is surrounding me.

• 31:41Speaker 04

  I think it's something that I, like, very much had to put in place boundaries-wise in order to be able to kind of move forwards and not completely burn the candle at two ends and like ruin my mental health. I think that, you know, there's an element of the fact that like, I don't believe social media is a good place for people pleasers. And I'm like very much a people pleaser and then throw a business in there as well that you cannot have control over, like, all of the different elements. Like, it's an absolute nightmare and you're always gonna be unhappy if that's like what you're kind of aiming for. I think one of the, like, key decisions in protecting Or setting those boundaries in order that, yes, as you say, to a certain amount of people, I will be the face of these businesses, like whether I like it or not.

• 32:25Speaker 04

  I think that a big decision that made that better is that when I came out of university, I basically felt like I decided my career without even really meaning to. And, you know, more based on this kind of concept of just working at what worked and just like keeping on pushing at what worked. And felt like I'd become a social media influencer, which I have nothing against it all, but I, as I said, I don't feel like it fit within my skill set. And more so to that, I think that it fit directly in my like violation of boundaries when it comes to like being a people pleaser. And if I'm constantly relying on like having to be liked in order to make a living, that was never going to be good for me. And so like at that point, I did make a decision to like, like I deleted all of my

• 33:11Speaker 04

  videos on YouTube. I moved back from posting at all. Like there was a good two years where I did not give anyone what they wanted in terms of like, like I was just terrible in terms of content and all of that. And that was like a very conscious decision. I just knew that at that point I was like, I will never be happy if I am running these businesses based on whether people like me or not. Like that is completely incompatible with how I want to live my life. It's completely incompatible with my personality type. I would rather.

• 33:40Fearne Cotton?

  I don't think it's compatible for any human.

• 33:42Speaker 04

  And I, I think it's really, really, really, like, don't get me wrong. Like it's obviously an amazing job to have in so many ways. And sometimes I'll be like sitting there and like a terrible board meeting. I'll be like, why? Like, you could be on a beach.

• 33:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 33:56Speaker 04

  You know, with some gifted.

• 33:57Fearne Cotton?

  But I want to talk about this because you, you wrote a book, Working Hard Hardly Working, which totally dives into this subject matter of being successful, yet not burning yourself out. And knowing what your strengths are and putting boundaries in place so that you don't completely crumble and burn out. You're running three successful businesses. The onus is on you. If they're not doing well, you can't run and hide. They're your babies. You want them to succeed, yet you don't want to hit burnout. And I think also it's a very. Western, but also very British thing for us to boast about how busy we are.

• 34:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 34:34Fearne Cotton?

  Some people do that, not everybody.

• 34:36Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 34:36Fearne Cotton?

  Or just be absolutely drowning in tiredness because you're pushing yourself. And you say in the book, we are at this sort of strange point where you're either, or you're not sure if you're completely burnt out, or by social media standards, not quite productive enough.

• 34:52Speaker 04

  Right.

• 34:53Fearne Cotton?

  Some of us are just like, I don't know which one I am. I'm sort of burnt out, but also am I doing enough? I'm not achieving enough and we're all a bit sort of lost in that maybe.

• 35:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And I think it's a hugely important topic when it comes to actually like diving into where you sit within that and what our own boundaries are and like, understanding that self-care is a form of productivity and you cannot have productivity without self-care. But also you cannot have self-care without being productive. Like sometimes self-care is about reaching that deadline that you said you would reach three times. And now, you know, you're, you're letting it not happen again. Like there were two sides of this and it's really hard to know on social media. I think one of the biggest issues is the fact that you're talking to so many people and you don't know if that person needs a little push at that moment, or if they do need to sit back or whatever it might be. I think in terms of what I've done to be able to get to a point where I, at the moment, and like, you know, comes in waves,

• 35:44Speaker 04

  but at the moment feel like I've got a good balance of, you know, what I'm happy with. It's a number of different things. It's understanding that balance is not a 50 50 at all. I've understood that I'm quite the type of person who like, if my work is a type of thing that I've, if I've set up my work in the right way, then I really love what, what I'm doing. And like, that doesn't need to be the same for everyone. And some people can think that going home at seven from the office is like terrible. But actually like, I, I love work in lots of ways and I'm really, really fortunate to be in the position I'm in, working on something so amazing. And like, why, why shouldn't I love it? I think boundaries are a huge, huge part.

• 36:23Fearne Cotton?

  How are you with those?

• 36:24Speaker 04

  I have got better and better. And I think that running a company, you can't have a certain amount of boundaries because if it needs you, it needs you. But I also think that you can have the rest of the day, you can't use that as an excuse to not set any boundaries the rest of the time. So. For example, I have some really hard and fast rules around like how I spend my week. So I, on weeknights, I will only do things two days, like I will not go any further than that. And like, if it looks like I'm free on those extra days, it's, I'm not free. Like, that's time for myself. And I know the second I go over that threshold is the second that everything will be affected. Yeah. Work, home life, personal tasks, like whatever it might be. I know that I cannot go over that threshold, so it's a one in, one out process. It's understanding like how I recharge as a whole. It's understanding

• 37:08Speaker 04

  how to say no to things, even if they sound like great things, because you've got too many things in that week or whatever it might be. A huge part of it as well as an entrepreneur has been hiring people that are better than me at what they do. Like, your team and your business is only ever as good as the people within it. And like, learning to hire really fantastic people and relinquish control and delegate effectively has been without a doubt the best thing for my mental health, but also for the business. I think that there is, you know, even at a managerial level, so not even looking at like the entrepreneurship kind of angle.

• 37:48Speaker 04

  We're ingrained with this kind of fear that makes us hire people that are not as good as us. Like, it's seen as this, it's like a protection mechanism because you don't want to feel worse about yourself and you don't want to feel replaceable. But actually, I think that there's a huge amount of value in always, always, always hiring the best person that you could possibly hire. And like, if that means that they can take over like all of this and they can make you be able to do something else or whatever it might be, fantastic. I just think that like that shift in my mindset in order to be able to hire the best people we can possibly afford at any stage has been so, so, so important.

• 38:30Fearne Cotton?

  What about if your schedule gets too much? Obviously, you know, you're travelling a lot and filming days can be incredibly long and relentless. Do you, how do you make sure that you stay balanced during those times?

• 38:41Speaker 05

  I think it's just making time for myself. I think that's what it is. I think, you know, if I've got a full on schedule, I would come in, always have a bath. That's my thing. That is my heaven. I need a bath when I come in, especially on night shoots. Like, I'm not the type to get in bed on a night shoot freezing cold. I need to warm my bones up. Do you know what I mean? So I'll have a bath. That's like TLC for me. And then at weekends, I sort of try and see the people that make me happy, like my friends, my family, others, my husband. I'll take my dogs out. I've got two dogs who I'm obsessed with,

• 39:20Speaker 05

  who I've had since I was 21. So they're like my, my babies really. And I just spend, obviously in the week I can't see them because I'm working. So straight away on a Friday night, I'll go to my mum's, who's like their grandma, and I'll pick them up, bring the dogs home, and then I'll just have a weekend at home. I don't really do anything else. I like staying in.

• 39:37Fearne Cotton?

  Same.

• 39:38Speaker 05

  I know. Everyone thinks it's boring, but it's really not.

• 39:40Fearne Cotton?

  It's the least boring thing.

• 39:41Speaker 05

  It's the least boring thing.

• 39:42Fearne Cotton?

  I am a really happy little hermit.

• 39:45Speaker 05

  Me too.

• 39:46Fearne Cotton?

  I love, like, I love being at home. I never want to go anywhere because I know that being home is preferable. And I will be out thinking, why am I not at home?

• 39:56Speaker 05

  I know. And people always think that, you always thought when I was younger, would I get a FOMO? You know, to see people out. I don't care.

• 40:02Fearne Cotton?

  Nor do I.

• 40:03Speaker 05

  I don't care. I love it.

• 40:04Fearne Cotton?

  I can't think of anything worse. If I'm on Instagram and I see that everyone's out at like some bash, I just think, thank God I'm not there.

• 40:13Speaker 05

  Me too.

• 40:13Fearne Cotton?

  Thank God I'm not.

• 40:14Speaker 05

  Don't want to be. Don't want to be.

• 40:16Fearne Cotton?

  I don't want to be. I really, really can't be arsed. I think over the years, sometimes, you know, this is certainly different in phases of my life. And I'm now like very happily a hermit. But I think over the years, you can think, in this weird industry we're in, and we're in different portions of it, but it's still, you know, moving in the same circles, strange, strange world that it is, that you have to play the game, that you have to go to the premiere, you have to go to the parties, you have to go to the things. Do you feel any of that pressure?

• 40:42Speaker 05

  I used to massively. Now I don't go anywhere, and that is through choice. Like, I, if I have any time off, that time off for me is quite precious. And I like doing what I like to do and I like being at home, in my natural surroundings.

• 40:58Fearne Cotton?

  Same.

• 40:59Speaker 05

  You know, as I've grown up in the industry, I have become a lot stronger now. And that's why I've sort of made a conscious decision. As I have grown up and I have gotten older, that I I've kept a lot of my private life private. And that's been a conscious decision for me. And because of, you know, doing that, I do feel a lot happier.

• 41:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, good for you. We're just setting boundaries, isn't it?

• 41:18Speaker 05

  Exactly, setting the boundaries, yeah.

• 41:20Fearne Cotton?

  Because I was reading, obviously, like, a ton of articles that you'd done in preparation to talk to you today. And one thing that you said is that you're a people pleaser.

• 41:27Speaker 05

  Oh, my god, yeah.

• 41:27Fearne Cotton?

  And, yeah, right. Like, I think many people out there will go, yeah, hands up, absolutely like to make people around me feel good and feel comfortable and whatever it is in personal life, in your, in your working life. So that can make it difficult to then set boundaries. If you're making decisions that you don't want to talk about certain things at work or even boundaries with your family, that, that can be really uncomfortable to do that if you're a people pleaser.

• 41:56Speaker 05

  Yes, and I feel very uncomfortable. And that, you know, having those conversations for me is very alien. Like, I could never, like, pull someone up or, like, I don't know, say that I'm uncomfortable. I always sort of, like, went along with things so it didn't make them feel uncomfortable. It wasn't about me. But I feel like, again, as I've gotten older, I have become more stronger in that field, where I can step back and be like, actually, no, I don't feel comfortable. Or if I'm doing an interview and they ask me personal questions, I could be like, I don't want to talk about that. Where years ago, I'd just blurt things out and then read it and think, why did I say that?

• 42:31Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 42:31Speaker 05

  You know?

• 42:32Fearne Cotton?

  We've all been there.

• 42:33Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 42:33Fearne Cotton?

  It's horrible. But with the boundaries thing, I think it is, perhaps it is something just with age, you get better at being able to flex those muscles and say, actually, I don't want to do that. Because I think otherwise, I mean, I certainly found not setting a boundary or not telling someone What I was capable of doing or what I didn't want to do would just lead to resentment. I'd end up just feeling so full of resentment that I'd gone along with someone else's desires and left myself at the bottom of the pile. There you go, there you go. No more leaving ourselves at the bottom of the bloody pile. We're not allowed to do it anymore. You know what, one thing I will say is the older I get and I'm, you know, hurtling towards,

• 43:17Fearne Cotton?

  I think I'm in my mid 40s, aren't I? I'm 43, I think that constitutes as mid. I'm in the thick of it and it's getting easier and it doesn't mitigate the, you know, discomfort and the pain it can cause, but I definitely feel a lot more able to do it and I'm sure many of you will feel the same. Tell you what, how about we all practise saying no to something really small this week? Just to start exercising that muscle. Let me know how you get on on Instagram, we're at Happy Place Official. Do you know another episode that you might want to listen to? Our roundup of all the incredible talks at the Happy Place Festival over the summer. We had so many brilliant speakers and they talked about telling self limiting beliefs

• 43:58Fearne Cotton?

  to bugger off and to start living the life that you want to unapologetically. We love it. There'll be a link to that one in the show notes as well as links to listen to the full episodes from all the gorgeous women you've heard from today. For now, massive thanks to Melissa Urban, Michelle Elman, Kirsty Gallagher, Leanne Rimes, Grace Beverley and Michelle Keegan, to the brilliant producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios and to you, you're completely brilliant. Now go and say no.

• 44:53Speaker 06

  The holidays bring brand-new gadgets, bigger spending, and even more on your to-do list. Good thing Verizon gives you more than just a great network. We give you a whole lineup of products and services, like a protection plan for your family's home tech that covers everyday mishaps, a credit card that rewards holiday shopping with real savings, and a smartwatch built specifically for keeping up with your kids. Take the stress out of the season. Pick what works for you at Verizon.com/extras.

• 45:23Speaker 07

  Brought to you by the Capital One Saver Card. With Saver, you earn unlimited 3% cash back on dining, entertainment, and at grocery stores. That's unlimited cash back on ordering takeout from home or unlimited cash back on tickets to concerts and games. So grab a bite, grab a seat, and earn unlimited 3% cash back with the Saver Card. Capital One. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com for details.

• 45:53Speaker 02

  Network freedom and flexibility, that's what you want in a healthcare plan. With a Humana Medicare Advantage PPO plan, you can see any doctor in the country who accepts Medicare, including specialists. No referrals, no kidding. Learn more at GetHumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to bill Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.