Louise Thompson: Maternity care is bleak! Mental and physical scars of my traumatic birth

Everyone deserves a safe and dignified birth, but when Louise Thompson gave birth to son Leo, she was left with post-traumatic stress disorder. In this chat with Fearne, Louise talks through how her PTSD manifests, the way she disassociates, and the therapies she’s tried to work through it, including CBT and EMDR. She explains why her own experience has led her to petition the government. She wants to appoint a Maternity Commissioner to improve maternity care for mums and babies in the UK. Four years post-birth, Louise is reflecting on the ways she’s grown from her trauma, and is exploring how she can allow herself to slow down while maintaining her ambitious nature. Louise and Fearne also both share how they use busyness as a distraction from their uncomfortable thoughts, and wonder what being ‘likeable’ even means... Sign Louise’s Maternity Commissioner petition here https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/751174?fbclid=PAVERFWAPddIJleHRuA2FlbQIxMQBzcnRjBmFwcF9pZA8xMjQwMjQ1NzQyODc0MTQAAafFvdhanDY7JOR2-S5IkW1a0k3xGnsdwWZlg1WvsVfyzkZVXYFO63RFr5qbCg_aem_rCYda_OXdKrLGRRtXDfNqA If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Davina McCall https://pod.fo/e/309799 Liberty Mills https://pod.fo/e/2d0aa1 Ellie Simmonds https://pod.fo/e/2d721d Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To market, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:28Fearne Cotton?

  Hello and a massive welcome to Happy Place with me, Fern Cotton. This is the show that offers different perspectives through different life stories. And today, I'm chatting to Louise Thompson. Post-traumatic stress disorder will sadly plague me for the rest of my life. At its worst, it looks like traumatic flashbacks, which can be triggered by anything. You know, it's the smells, it's the sensations, it's the condensation on the window that can trigger me into feeling really scared. I have moments where I feel dissociated and I can not smell or taste or hear or even see that well.

• 1:09Fearne Cotton?

  And then I have other moments where I can smell, hear, taste too much, so I'm very, very, very sensitive. I'm actually recording this introduction in my kitchen. So that's why it might sound a bit echoey, but also it is pissing with rain outside and my cats are all zooming around me. So if you hear any strange noises, lovely listeners, that's where you can picture me. Fig is usually... Fig's my kitten, by the way, if I haven't bombarded you enough on Instagram with pictures of her. And she will kick about anything like a football. Jewelry, keys, bits of tissue, just rolls of sellotape. It's all up for grabs.

• 1:51Fearne Cotton?

  But I hope you're all well, wherever you're listening to this. I learned an interesting lesson this week and it's one that is definitely not the first time I've learned it. And it's quite a big overarching lesson that I had to learn. I mean, the big ones are the ones that we need to keep learning, right? So... Last week, I felt really shit. Not as shit as I did, say, thirteen, fourteen years ago, but I felt really low. And sometimes that is essential, and I could sort of feel myself fighting it for a few days before, which is exhausting, sort of trying to resist hitting

• 2:30Fearne Cotton?

  a big low. But actually, what I remembered and re-learned was that sometimes when you, when you get like either rock bottom, or you just hit a low point, you've got no choice but to surrender. And in that moment, that is what I did. I was just like, well, I just feel like shit and I'm not coping well with what's going on in my life and whatever. And from that low, that sort of surrender, actually came a bit of peace. And it's given me the opportunity to see things from a different angle, approach things with a different mindset. Like, it's been sort of extraordinary. So although nothing much has changed, everything's changed in terms of how I'm looking at things. I

• 3:15Fearne Cotton?

  don't know how long it's gonna last. I might feel like shit tomorrow, who knows? But as I record this today, I'm feeling pretty good because I let myself reach that low. So if you're feeling utterly shit at the moment, or you're resisting a big low, as long as you feel supported enough, I'd say go with it and let yourself feel your feelings, essentially. As long as you've got good people around you that can support you if needed, or friends you can pick up the phone and talk to, it's no bad thing. And often, it gives us an opportunity to reset, start again, think of things differently. So that's the headspace I'm in. And I was actually in that headspace when I recorded this brilliant

• 3:57Fearne Cotton?

  chat. God, I love this woman and I love this chat. Let's talk about brilliant Louise. So Louise started her career on Made in Chelsea. She was one of the OGs way back in Series One, but she has done so much since then. She's gone on to become an author and a And a really powerful voice around incredibly important issues, including ulcerative colitis and birth trauma. We talk about so many things. We go off on some really interesting tangents and ones that I hadn't necessarily planned for. You know, I do a fair bit of research for these conversations, but you never really know in which direction they'll turn.

• 4:39Fearne Cotton?

  So we do start talking about the realities of maternity care in the UK. In my research for this chat and through looking at the brilliant work Louise is doing, I sort of had really no idea how bleak it is in the UK maternity care. And that's no fault of the brilliant midwives and obstetricians and docs and nurses who work in that environment. It's a systemic issue and you'll hear more about that in this chat. We talk about her fertility journey. If you follow Louise on Instagram or TikTok, you'll see that she's been talking very openly about this recently, which I think is a brave share. And the fact that, well, I don't want to say too much, but if you know enough about her fertility

• 5:20Fearne Cotton?

  journey, you'll get up to speed with where she's at in this moment during this chat. And also how her own trauma, and God, she's been through the wringer, has led to immense growth. And that I think is just such a brilliant part of the trauma conversation that is less often had.

• 5:43Speaker 02

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• 5:59Speaker 05

  What was I supposed to get a screening on? It was my last tennis shot. How long was I on those meds? What did my last lab results say? Wait, did I leave my straightener on? What did my doctor say at my last appointment?

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• 6:59Fearne Cotton?

  Right, let's do it. Here's the show.

• 7:22Fearne Cotton?

  So Louise, we've already, before beginning this podcast, decided we're going to move to a desert island and open an animal sanctuary. Was that what we landed on? Beautiful. I would love that for us, Fan. Before we do that, we have got a whole load of stuff to chat about. Now, having followed bits of your journey, you're in a really interesting place at the moment. For one reason, you had a big, big week the other week where you put forward a petition to the UK Parliament. And this is all in order to appoint a maternity commissioner. This is very big, important work. Can you tell us what that role would mean to, well, women and men out there? Because it would affect everybody and benefit everybody. How would that affect us?

• 8:07Fearne Cotton?

  Thank you, Fan. Yes. So about two months ago, a lady called Theo Clark, who's an ex-conservative MP, and me got together and decided that we wanted to create a petition. We didn't realise it was going to take two months for it to be approved, but it now is. And I think that it is fairly crazy that in this country, we don't have a maternity commissioner. So we have a commissioner for the environment, for domestic abuse, for education, for lots of really important topics, but not for maternity. And there are 600,000 women that give birth on average every year in the UK. It is the inception of life. It is the difference between life and death. It is bringing

• 8:51Fearne Cotton?

  children into this world who are either going to be born into a stable world, stable family, or not. And having experienced my own heavily traumatic birth four years ago, I've really seen the challenges that this sort of problem can leave people with. You know, I've been left with a lot of mental and physical scars, and it's taken me a really long time to get to a place where I'm actually functioning like a normal, normal human again. And I, I really, you know, Theo has her own experience of birth trauma. Weirdly, we both went to the same prep school and secondary school and reconnected in twenty twenty four when my book came out. No way. Yeah. And I had, and she's quite a bit older than me, actually. And I say that

• 9:35Fearne Cotton?

  was meant to be an insult. She's, she's in her forties. I'm thirty five. So we weren't close, but we have that weird thing in common. And it felt like something that was meant to happen, you know, that this was the serendipitous moment that we, we were meant to connect, even though it was in awful circumstances. And so we started working together and she obviously has the parliamentary background. I have lived experience. And I just really, really don't want what happened to me to continue to happen to many other women that are less fortunate and have less privilege and less resources and that don't end up healing and surviving. Because there have been partners who have messaged me to say

• 10:17Fearne Cotton?

  that they've lost their, their wives. And that, I remember when I received my first message like that, it actually, it completely broke me. So I always knew that there was something that I wanted to do to make lasting change. And, you know, it is that cliche thing of. Turning something terrible into something good. And I think as humans, like, we're always searching for meaning. We're such problem solvers as it is. You know, I couldn't find any meaning behind what had happened to me because it was just awful and it could have been avoided. And so this, this felt like the answer and I, you know, when, when I went through those worst times, I thought that I was totally alone.

• 10:58Fearne Cotton?

  Like, I thought that I was just this, like, hugely unlucky person. I thought I was one in, you know, a hundred million. There are thirty thousand women a year that end up with PTSD following a traumatic birth. That's five percent of all births. And I think with somebody to take control of everything, you know, we have a health minister. It's not enough, like, they don't have enough time. No. To focus solely on the maternity care in this country and, and also the stats are quite scary, you know? And I don't want to sit here and just fear monger because obviously, you know, a huge part of your following, a huge demographic will be women of childbearing age. I think this is really about educating people.

• 11:41Fearne Cotton?

  So, yeah, there was this Guardian article that came out last week, which suggested that the Tories, they wanted to obviously work to reducing maternal deaths over a fifteen year period. I think that the sad reality is that in the last fourteen years, the death rates have gone up by twenty percent. So it's kind of turned into a national scandal and we're kind of, we just want to, want to move things. So within the first twenty four hours, we had ten thousand signatures. And for any petition, you need ten thousand signatures to get a response from parliament. You've got six months, so there's a six month window and we have until July to make a, you know, hopefully get a lot, a lot, a lot of signatures. So hopefully lots of your beautiful listeners. Sign it.

• 12:24Fearne Cotton?

  Can help with that. And then if you reach a hundred thousand, they will consider debating it in parliament. It's crazy to me that it needs debating. It's so basic for me to say that, but this is half the population. Yeah. You know, all women will be affected by this in some way, even if it's not you getting pregnant. It's some, it's your mate, it's your daughter, it's. You know, it's someone close to you in life will, will at some point possibly get pregnant and have to go through what's supposed to be this magical, amazing experience can really be turned on its head if the maternity care isn't there. And this petition has been inspired because you have this inquiry and report

• 13:08Fearne Cotton?

  that has all of these bleak statistics in there about postnatal care and also prenatal care. And that it's massively lacking and also that a lot of it's to do with sort of a postcode lottery. Depending on where you live, quite literally depends on what that standard of care will be, which seems absurd. Very scary and there are a lot of, there's a lot of data on the inequality of, of the care, as you say, quite rightly point out, especially it was disproportionately more black and Asian mothers that end up dying. And people that live in less privileged parts of the country.

• 13:48Fearne Cotton?

  And I, I think it's really shocking and you, you say it should be something that has been considered really regularly and discussed in parliament really regularly. Instead, there are regular reports and inquiries into the problem, but nobody is actioning anything. And I think like the birth inquiry, which did come out in 2024, set a long list of recommendations, which were things like properly educating birthing parents, creating more mother and baby units for parents that have suffered six week checkup postpartum for mothers as well as the babies, adequate funding for midwives, obstetricians and anaesthetists

• 14:31Fearne Cotton?

  to recruit them, train them and also retain them because I think the retention rates are really poor at the moment. And I get loads of ex-midwives who are probably in the generation above us, who used to love their career and, and stuck around for 20 odd years, who might have children, who have tried it and are just not treated with adequate respect. And so I think that there's a huge problem. And you know, the government spend more money. Paying out medical negligence cases than they do on the care in the first place. Wow. And that's what's so alarming. And so there's, there clearly needs to be this huge shake up to, to tackle a lot of, a lot of these problems. Hmm.

• 15:12Fearne Cotton?

  For, for women, because it's becoming a systemic issue. And yeah, I just, I really, really hope that we can get our foot in the door. And look, I mean, I have very little experience when it comes to politics. So it's something that I'm interested in and I'm reading more about. But it's, it's not my, it's definitely not my space, but I do think.

• 15:36Fearne Cotton?

  But you're bringing, you're bringing the heat and the attention to it. That's, that's very important. You know, it's, it's all very well and good. And rightly so, you know, Theo, who you're working with will have that knowledge and that background, but equally, we need voices out there speaking about it and we need the attention on it. So I don't think, I'm certainly not sat here expecting you to know every political agenda that's out there. I just think it's a subject that, well, women's health in general, I think the, the general sort of feeling is that women need to just suck it up and get on with it, whether it's hormonal health, sexual health, menstrual health, going back to when you first start your periods.

• 16:16Fearne Cotton?

  We're just meant to crack on with things and get on with it. And that, this is the extreme of that. The most severe outcome is, you know, somebody, a mother not making it to be there for their newborn baby. That is the severe end of a, a problem that seriously needs looking at. Absolutely. And I think that there has been an issue, obviously amongst women's health, because largely the Houses of Commons have been made up of, of men. Now I think that, you know, there's a bit more equality. I think there are forty percent of politicians are women. So we're kind of on the cusp of like this pretty major change. And I do really admire other people that have

• 16:56Fearne Cotton?

  stepped forward and have dedicated so much of their time and their privilege and having a big following towards trying to create a big shift. You know, you're a very close friend to Davina, she does. So much for the menopause, which I think is amazing. Vicky Patterson speaks a lot about endometriosis. And it's really, it's really great to be surrounded by such incredible company. And I think that we are really on the cusp of change. And I just hope that we can get a conversation in with West Streeting. Because this, it doesn't benefit anybody, you know, and there's not one person that benefits from this. No. Perhaps a couple of legal firms, I don't know, but.

• 17:36Fearne Cotton?

  But the shift, when you look at the, the other side of the coin, the benefits are huge, not only to the postpartum mother, but the baby and the family that spirals from that, but also, like you've said, midwives, obstetricians and ethicists, people that are working in that environment that wants to do their job well, but need the resources and the funding and the backing to do it properly. It benefits everybody if that shift is in place. It really does. Do you feel hopeful about it? Because it's a huge, it's a huge deal to go up against a government and to try and make huge systemic change like this. Do you, at this, these sorts of early stages, how do you feel about it?

• 18:19Fearne Cotton?

  I feel really mixed, fun. So I feel, I have moments where I feel really empowered and I feel as though I've got like this army of people marching behind me that all want this to happen. I have other moments where I feel like a complete imposter and then I think, God, I've got to come on first podcast today and, and talk about this really significant issue. And, and then I remember actually that every individual, you know, we're all just people, we're all individual people and I can only do my best. I am learning a lot and I, I am being a spokesperson, like a mouthpiece for

• 18:59Fearne Cotton?

  the 1.5 million followers that I have. I've done polls, I'm creating forms, I'm trying to do my own research. But I suppose. You know, all people, you've got to start somewhere, like everybody that's successful in some sort of pursuit, whether it is a petition or, you know, writing some life-changing book, like that all more often than not starts with a story that means something really significant to somebody. Yeah. So I do feel like a bit of a, a kind of a pioneer in this space, but it does, it makes me feel emotional and there are people that will say, God, you know, you don't have to do this. Like, are you, are you all right? Like, is it going to be too much? I do feel like four years on, you know, I've had the, the survive, the year of survival. I've had the year of

• 19:43Fearne Cotton?

  kind of acceptance and then like the learning and the overcoming. And this is, I suppose, what post-traumatic growth really looks like is feeling equipped to take on this big challenge. And I think that there are a lot of people, you know, I'm not the first person to walk in these shoes. I think so many of the people that I admire, whether it's like Matt Hague, you know, writing his books about depression. A lot of people that have been through something really awful decide that they want to do something with that. And I think it's because when you've suffered so much, you feel the pain so intensely, like you've experienced that more than anything, any other like human lived experience.

• 20:23Fearne Cotton?

  You, you've become obsessed with it. You research it. And, and I'd say it's probably why a lot of like therapists as well end up, a lot of therapists are people that have been through something really traumatic and have had to work through their own stuff. They've worked with therapists. They realise that they're an expert in that and understanding and in connecting with other people that have been through something really deep. And they then go, yeah, I, I can recognise that in other people and I really want to help. And, and I guess that's kind of, I'm, I'm not saying, I definitely don't have the time to treat therapists and I'd be terrible. I'm terrible at listening.

• 20:59Fearne Cotton?

  Ryan will tell you that, my honour. But I do, um, yeah, I, I don't know. I, I feel like this is, this is the beginning. We've got six months to see what we can do. I mean, who, we, we could get millions of signatures. One of the next exciting things that we'd really like to do would be to get a lot of women together to do a huge photo call on College Green, which is opposite Parliament to create some more noise. And then really it's kind of conjuring up this marketing campaign just so that everybody knows. And, and it's, it's the education piece. And I feel.

• 21:34Fearne Cotton?

  Supported because there are some brilliant charities out there like the Birth Trauma Association who I work really closely with. The CEO, Dr Kim Thomas, has been heavily involved in this space for so long. And I guess they're right at the kind of like grassroots. They're the people that have to really like pick up the pieces, you know, when when people's worlds fall apart. They're the ones offering out the resources. They're the ones with the peer to peer support, picking up the phone, trying to make sure that people stay alive. And now we're going to try and tackle both ends because, you know, they they're like hugely underfunded and. I mean, it's it's a it's a huge mountain, but I think, you know, everybody's behind

• 22:17Fearne Cotton?

  you and everyone wants you with all of these amazing people that you forged an alliance with to keep it all rolling and keep it going. And any moment, you know, let me remind you that everybody out there gets imposter syndrome at times. And if you ever have it at any point in this journey, you just have to remember everything you've just said to me that, you know, it's your lived experience. It's not, I think so often, like you've just said, it's it's it's, yes, you need to work with the right people because everyone's got their own skill set. You don't need to know everything. But if you're fueled by your own personal experience, I don't think that can be rivaled. I think that that's where all of that determination and motivation comes from because you've been you've lived through it and you are still

• 23:01Fearne Cotton?

  living through it. I mean, going through something like a traumatic birth is not something that you just go, oh, right, I've done four years, I'm over it now, on to the next chapter. Anything traumatic lives with you forever. And it it won't obviously have the same resonance forever. And you won't drown in it forever, but it lives alongside you. Where would you say this far into your recovery from that? Where where are you at mentally? How do you how do you feel about, you know, you still have to talk about it often, certainly with a campaign like this? How how do you feel about it? It's a really good point. You do have to live with it forever. Like, post-traumatic stress disorder is not something that you can treat. And I've tried CBT, EMDR, exposure

• 23:46Fearne Cotton?

  therapy, antidepressants, antipsychotics. Like, I might sit here, I mean, I'm blinking a lot, so that's a sign that my nervous system is in a funny place because I'm talking about it. But it's, I might present to somebody that's really, you know, on the other side. Of recovery, but it is something that will sadly plague me for the rest of my life. I suppose at its worst, it looks like traumatic flashbacks, which can be triggered by anything. You know, January, this time of the year is really, really tricky for me because I've had so many hospital stays in January. A lot of emergency surgeries, like rushing into theatre. And so even looking out of the window, my brain knows when it's, you know, the first of January, the twentieth of January.

• 24:30Fearne Cotton?

  We're coming up to the thirtieth of January, which will be the two year anniversary of the surgery. Where I had to have my colon removed and was left with a stoma bag. And these things, you know, they just, they're, they're, they're there. It's the smells, it's the sensations, it's the condensation on the window that can trigger me into feeling really scared. And, and, and it's, and the hypervigilance is actually a lot. Yeah. So it's lying in bed at night and hearing the smallest sound reverberate through my entire head.

• 25:11Fearne Cotton?

  So I can be lying there and like, you know, that weird like crackling behind a TV or something that like a normal person would hear. Radiator pops, but it literally, I can feel it go like, there's this huge wave and it hits and it just goes floods through my whole body. And I think, oh, and then I go, okay, no, that's fine. That's a sign that I'm alive. It's all right. Um, my senses are still all over the place. So I have moments where I feel dissociated and I can not smell or taste or hear or even see that well. And then I have other moments where I can smell, hear, taste too much. So I'm very, very, very sensitive. I have this like awful nerve pain.

• 25:53Fearne Cotton?

  You know, that is is something that I'll be left with probably for forever. And and also, I've I suppose I've reached a place now where four years down the line, I think, you know what, I really don't want what happened to me to dictate the rest of of my life and what my family unit looks like. And so we have reached a point where my partner and I feel like we would like to be able to give Leo a sibling. Because we're really close with our siblings and I have been left with some fertility. So I don't have a period, you know, there are a lot of things that make me feel like less whole and human than I used to be before.

• 26:38Fearne Cotton?

  It's not going to be an easy journey. I have decided to try and freeze some fertility. While we then still continue to kind of like work on our mental space, because this has affected Ryan actually almost worse than it's affected me.

• 26:55Fearne Cotton?

  Especially when it comes to growing our family. I think for him, he's just like, why would we risk anything? I cannot go through that again. I cannot be the sole parent again. I can't, I can't like afford to have some big shift that means that I'm gonna regress and be scary again and not know who I am and not know where I am and have panic attacks all the time. So for him, he's like clinging on to any stability. And then I juggle this hard thing where I think, gosh, we're so lucky because I survived, I'm here and I do have a good standard of living. I've also got the most amazing child. He's so beautiful.

• 27:38Fearne Cotton?

  But then also growing our family is is our legacy and it's our right and I should have been allowed the human right of having a safe and dignified birth, which would have allowed me to leave procreation to chance, where, you know, I could have sex with my partner and maybe, maybe have another baby, you know, and that's not, you know, I know that fertility struggles are a very real problem and, you know, we are facing a population crisis. There are many reasons why people are leaving having kids until much later in life. And and so infertility is an inevitable reaction to that. So I'm I'm absolutely not alone in this infertility journey.

• 28:20Fearne Cotton?

  Answers are just really different because, you know, of of just the scarring that I've been left with. Yeah. And it feels, it feels actually quite like, it feels quite nice just to be able to like talk about it and just quite like liberating. Because it is, you know, when I first worked with therapists quite early on. And I say early on, but probably like at the two, you know, two year postpartum mark. They would say, oh, you know, if you like, have you thought about having more kids and how does that make you feel? And that must be desperately upsetting. And I was like, no, like, don't be ridiculous.

• 28:59Fearne Cotton?

  Like, I absolutely couldn't think about any of that. And I think that there were just different milestones that they were holding me to. Maybe they had other clients who were, you know, reaching that sort of like conventional two year mark and thinking, oh, maybe we'd like to have another child. But it's, so it what, it's not something, I can't sit here and say like, I've yearned for this for a really long time. Like, we've only just felt good enough to, to like, to kind of think about it. And, um, yeah, I've done a, an IVF cycle. I've actually done two. I did one when I was really, really busy. I, I, that's another thing, like, obviously.

• 29:42Fearne Cotton?

  You know, I'm sure loads of people have come on this podcast to say, make a plan, God laughs, or whoever laughs, whoever you believe in.

• 29:50Fearne Cotton?

  There were times when I wanted to do it before and then like something else really hideous would crop up in my life. Like some other major trauma to have to deal with, some perforation or a surgery. And so it was always put on pause. And then because I have this bowel condition. I'm on quite a lot of different medication and some of that medication, there's just not been enough research around whether it's like safe to. Carry kids, but also, but that, you know, wouldn't really be the main thing for me. But it, it's also, they don't know whether it's something called to atogenic, which means that it can like pass on to the child. And they don't know at what like cellular level that could be. So um I've had to work to

• 30:35Fearne Cotton?

  to this like program um where I can switch medications, basically. It feels complicated and like really deep to me. But when I say it out loud, people are probably like, so you switch medication. But I'm like, but for me, switching medication. It's huge. Means like, but that medication was working. And like, if I switch off it, then I might have to have like my bum removed in an emergency surgery. So everything has had to be so considered and like slow and delicate. And we got there. And then, yeah, I had, I did a cycle and I was very scared because I wouldn't. It feels odd to choose, you know, to pay to to have the procedure done.

• 31:17Fearne Cotton?

  And everything else has been, you know, on on the NHS and not by choice. And so, you know, even Ryan has thought like, but why would I don't want to see you in a hospital gown for any reason, like even if you are in control. And and I did it and I was, it was at a time when I was, yeah, I think I mentioned I was really busy, kind of at the end of last year. And so I kind of breezed through it, actually. And and I'll be honest, I thought, I thought that it was fine. And I thought that it was easy compared to some of the other things that I'd been through. And I then felt really confident this year going into another cycle, because we didn't get the results that we wanted.

• 32:03Fearne Cotton?

  But I was like, oh, maybe I'm just like lucky and I just, I sort of haven't found it that tough with all the hormones. And then I did another one this year and it was, it served me all of like the worst things that you can go through in terms of um feeling really like up and down and weak and emotional. And the emotions are irrational. You know, you kind of like have these little conversations in your head or like with the monkey on the shop. You're like, I don't think this is me. Um but something's, there's some fire coming out of me right now and I'm like calling people that work in the clinic at like on godly times of the day, being like, seeking reassurance, like secretly, like a kind of addiction.

• 32:49Fearne Cotton?

  So, yeah, that's that's kind of where where we're at with that and we'll see what happens.

• 32:57Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, I'm Joanna Fletcher. And I'm Marco Burchella. And this is Boots Off. We are friends who have spent a decade together, walking up mountains, across deserts and along coastlines with some seriously awesome groups of humans. And something happens when you're out there, feet on the ground, surrounded by nature. The conversations just spill out of you. This series is about the adversities that lead to adventure. The adventures that lead to adversity. And how life can be one big adventure in itself. Listen every Thursday. Just search for Boots Off.

• 33:34Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, it's such a mix of things that you're having to be looking at. Like you've just mentioned, the medication and looking at the PTSD and the emotional turmoil and then your relationship with your partner. There's so much in there. Going through something like IVF and like you've just said, you know, you've got your hormones up and down, all over the place, as well as the expectation and the waiting and the not knowing. What is helping you through all of that? Because you've been through hell and back and you've gotten to a place where you're able to make a decision like this, but you've got to maintain

• 34:14Fearne Cotton?

  a, whatever you can, you know, a good base level of mental health to get you through this next bit. What do you need in place to ensure that happens? Very good question because I'm living through it kind of at the moment. I think that as I started to get better, so sort of like three years postpartum, I sort of like rebounded back into this place where I was in sort of turbo distract mode. So constantly trying to grow something and achieve something and be busy or grow my team or have, you know, deeper conversations and like looking for distraction everywhere ultimately. And becoming, almost feeling quite trapped because I used to...

• 34:58Fearne Cotton?

  Do a lot of like physical exercise and movement and not being able to really do that because anytime I do that now I have awful like symptoms and and I sort of start bleeding and stuff. It's not very nice. So that's felt really hard, but I've like, I've really crammed the mental stimulation in. Whereas with this process, I've felt really fatigued and I actually have just, I've like relinquished that like need for speed, basically. Like I've actually just gone, you know what? If I have to just cancel all my important or exciting things for January, that's okay. Oh my god, yeah.

• 35:42Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. And like even if that rolls a little bit into February, I'm like, what do I actually? Who cares? What do I need to do this whole year? Who cares? Like I've been through so much enough to like last a lifetime. Yes. That I don't need any more badges. Give yourself a break. I mean, I totally, totally hear you. I've spent years trying to distract myself from things I haven't wanted to think about. And I've done all the things that you've mentioned, CBT and EMDR and yada, yada, yada. And I think some of it's really stuck. EMDR, I found very, very helpful. But I think that need to constantly be, whether it's achieving or mentally stimulated, challenging myself, doing things is still my crutch that I lean on.

• 36:23Fearne Cotton?

  And I know I've, I've experimented it with i- in ways this January where I've had days where I've been on my knees, exhausted from just doing too much and being with the kids on my own. And I've gone, do you know what? I'm cancelling this or I'm not gonna go to this thing that I actually don't need to go to. And I'm gonna have a bath. Mmm. At five P M or before the kids get back from school and not feel horribly guilty or judged by anyone for doing it. We're all trying to do too much at one time. And then we give ourselves such a hard time for just stopping. I mean, the. The thing you have to deal with when you stop, of course, is the bombardment of thoughts and worries, or it might be stuff from the past.

• 37:08Fearne Cotton?

  How do you, what's your mental way of, I don't know, whether it's quieting those thoughts down, or just being able to arrange them into some sort of organised group so you can methodically deal with them, rather than it just being brain noise? Mmm. Gosh, there's so much that I could talk about. Gosh, I feel better knowing that you also have the same struggles. Mate, I'm on the run all the time. January, it's just, you know, this constant battle of like, but do I need to have like a really solid start to the year? No. No, fuck it, I don't. I can literally just coast and be irrelevant and insignificant, and I just want to be an ant for like a little bit. Guess what we all are anyway?

• 37:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yes, we're exactly so arrogant to think that I need to have a really big January. But we do, but we all think that, we all think, oh my God, I've got to make my mark. Or even in life, and it's like, we actually don't, you know, we, I think most of us are just about getting through it. We're just about getting through whatever our bespoke set of challenges are, varying degrees of severity, we're just about getting through it. And we can look on Instagram and think, oh my God, everyone's nailing it, or they're doing this or whatever. Behind the scenes, they're probably also just about getting through it. And we do just need to take our foot off the gas. And, you know, I'm not a therapist, I'm not giving you any advice, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. But what I will say is, yes, give yourself a break.

• 38:31Fearne Cotton?

  You've got, you've got enough to contend with, with just, even like you said a minute ago, like you're aware of when your nervous system is peaking, that you blink a lot. I know my, and I have the same thing, if I'm lying in bed at night and a radiator pops, I am literally on the edge of panic, like it's a visceral experience. And I know that I need to. Throughout the day, check in with where's my nervous system at? Am I breathing? Probably not. I'm probably holding my breath up here. Have I actually taken the time to stop and look around the space that I'm in? Like, oh, have a look around the room. None of this stuff touches the size. We're just fucking getting through it. So I think even if you wake up every day and you're like,

• 39:14Fearne Cotton?

  my job today is going to be making sure my nervous system remains as level as it can. What an achievement.

• 39:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yes, I actually listened to a podcast not that long ago. I think it was one of Dr. Rangan Chatterjee's. We love Rangan. He's great, isn't he? He's the best. And well, so I got into him and you at the same time, you the OGs, the 2018 crowd.

• 39:35Fearne Cotton?

  We were the Covid generation. We were the Covid people just like talking in your ear. Yeah, it was wonderful. It got me through a lot of, actually I thought the times were hard back then. They were not, they were kind of a doddle, but. Um, he did this sort of whole episode, it was just him, where he basically said every day, just have a little thought about one thing that you want to do that day. And I was like, that's really nice. Like, let's just reduce this full 24 hours to like one thing that could maybe even take like a couple of minutes. Yes. That takes the pressure off. And that day, when I, when I kind of had that revelation, I thought, you know what? I'm going to think outside the box a little bit. I'm going to make today about

• 40:16Fearne Cotton?

  Ryan, because I really haven't spent any time thinking about him in a very long time. You know, and we was kind of just like in that phase where we're coasting and we're getting through and we're just sort of doing our own thing. But I was like, today, maybe I'll make that my one thing. And that felt quite like enlightening as well, because Yeah. I just, also it kind of, it forced me just to like take a gear change. I was like, I don't need to keep on this motor, this hamster wheel. I'll just stop, pause, try and answer that one question and try and do something, make it something really different every day.

• 40:53Fearne Cotton?

  And that feels nice. I think another thing that I like to do, which is quite personal to me, is I love doing puzzles. Ooh. I know, I'm such a nerd. Like, I love just like a jigsaw. And even, because I used to get quite a lot of anxiety when, when I sort of got around to parenting my now four-year-old Leo.

• 41:16Fearne Cotton?

  I used to panic that like we weren't, I mean, it was especially hard when I couldn't talk to him. That I was kind of in his company and I was like trying to think of the things that I should be doing. I I just found the whole thing really overwhelming and I'd be like, what am I? I mean, it is.

• 41:31Fearne Cotton?

  What am I, what am I doing like right now? Like, I'm not talking to him, I'm not like actively feeding him, we're really just existing. And so now I, it's taken a while to come to terms with the fact that like it's important for a child to be able to do nothing. Yep. So that they don't come into the same habits that we have. Mm hmm. Um, and and we do quite a lot of jigsawing together as well. So I do quite a lot of it on my own. Because that allows me to concentrate on something that's outside of my head, but it just helps all the memories process. Yes. So it's like that time, even if it's kind of like half an hour at the end of the day, where I know that I'm like downloading all of the day.

• 42:14Fearne Cotton?

  And it's moving, you know, into the right like memory box in my brain. Yeah. And also you do still get like that little hint of like dopamine that you need to keep you going and keep you smiling. Because you're kind of putting something together and so you're building something. I love it. I think it's so important to have an activity where you do exactly what you've just said. You're letting your brain calibrate the whole day. It's just all slotting into place. Because otherwise, if I don't do that, and there's loads of days where I don't, I get into bed, turn my light off and it all starts up then. And I'm like, I don't want to replay every conversation I've had in my head today or think about every move that I made that was incorrect.

• 42:57Fearne Cotton?

  Or thing I could have done better. You you do need to try and get that shit done before your head hits the pillow. And it's, I think also if you've got a propensity to disassociate, which I also do, and I actually.

• 43:11Fearne Cotton?

  Since sort of looking at what I would be talking about with you today and looking at what you've been talking about recently in podcasts, you had a brilliant episode with Ryan, your partner, where you discussed a lot of what we've chatted about today, but within the context of a relationship, it made me remember that I disassociate because it's so normal to me to do it, that I'll just, I know I go slightly glazed behind the eyes and I, and internally, I'm sort of very aware of what I'm, my body's doing and how I'm speaking and I become, it's all a bit surrealist and like I'm not actually there. But it's so normal to me that I have to go to myself, come on, like you're, you're doing it, you're doing, you're doing the thing. And I think if you've got a bit of a history of doing

• 43:54Fearne Cotton?

  that, it's even more important to then have those little activities that allow you to just go, I am going to be subconsciously processing everything, whether it's trauma in the past or things that have happened today whilst I do one thing. Like, when do we do one thing? We're watching TV on our phones, we're like cooking and talking to someone, it's absurd. We're absorbing so much and our brains need a break. Our brains are fucked. The dissociation is they're like, I'm so tired and overworked, like, please, can you just turn the heat down a little bit? Like, I feel like a computer or a robot sometimes that's just overheating. And then I'm like, I even had the, people are going to think

• 44:34Fearne Cotton?

  I'm crazy now, but the thought of like, well, are we all actually just turning into to robots? Like, why are we doing this to ourselves? Like, we're treating ourselves like machines that never need like powering down, like laptops now, like I never turn it off, I'm never like shut down and reset. It's mad. We're just like live all the time. I agree. I mean, before we started this chat on the mic, we were having this sort of chat off mic about how like I'm constantly on the precipice of. Fuck this, I can't do this, it's all too much. What are we, what am I even doing? What am I doing in my life? I need to go and work in a cat sanctuary and do something better with my time.

• 45:15Fearne Cotton?

  Or like, I'm constantly sort of existential and wondering, because you do just go through these motions of get up, take the kids to school, rush back, go to work, rush through that bit of the day, rush through getting the kids. Everything's just a rush to get to sleep, which I don't even do, and then you rush again the next day. And it's like, what are we, what are we doing? Fuck are we doing? What are we doing? What are, what are we doing? What are we doing? So quite, I'll tell you who I lean on is I'm, me and Ryan are polar opposites. Right. So he does not get carried away with, with things. He's slow, he's like a slow mover, a slow thinker. Sometimes very frustratingly, I'm like, how does your brain work at this like slow frequency?

• 45:57Fearne Cotton?

  And I'm so fast. And sometimes I'm like, well, maybe you're just not as clever as me. You won't mind me saying that. But equally, I'm like, but you are, you're like the, it's like the tortoise and the hare. And actually, you're, you're still getting to places, like you're still moving. He's decided this year to go, he's doing like an Ironman in Hawaii. He doesn't care if like, he doesn't achieve anything except for like that one big thing. Yeah. And I'm like, that's actually great. In my mind, I'm thinking, and I know people like this, you know, a lot of people in this same industry as well, who don't take holidays. You know, my brother's a culprit. He's like, I couldn't possibly take a holiday. Unless it's tied in with something to do with work. And I'm like, you have to because,

• 46:42Fearne Cotton?

  because as someone who has spent time, you know, waking up from like an awful kind of like life-changing, life-threatening surgery. In those moments, you do really think, okay, like this is all a game. Like, let's just make sure to definitely carve out the time to like hang out with, with some cool people and, and just be silly and, and.

• 47:08Fearne Cotton?

  You know, I I do have a lot of respect for people that kind of just like move. They think like, oh, you know what, like I've spent enough time here in this country. I think I'll try something new for a little bit. Yeah, I'm so envious of those people. It's like, it's, that must be like a life well lived, having their, like, different experiences. I think I find that quite comforting, knowing that like, if it, you know, if it all goes wrong, there is the option to do that because you can always kind of start again, but, but I, this, this year, I think because we were off to a bit of a weird start with this IVF cycle, and then actually my son ended up in hospital just for forty eight hours in the end.

• 47:49Fearne Cotton?

  It was the reminder that like, okay, like every January I'm reminded that like, life is tough and like it's bad things happen even to good people. And like, don't like sprint out the gates, like I can speed up towards the end of the year if I like have to, if there are like targets or something I need to meet, but for now, like just, let's just enjoy it and. You're right.

• 48:17Speaker 02

  Cause you didn't just say, how can I provide these investments? You'd be, how do I holistically provide everything? How do I bring in the legal, the accounting, all this and do it at a price point no one else is doing it?

• 48:26Speaker 03

  Learn more about how we approach wealth management at creativeplanning.com/integrated. It's time. It's the most wonderful time of the year. Halloween.

• 48:41Fearne Cotton?

  And you guys know we don't do Halloween by halves. Full costume, full prosthetics, full commitment. I'm a rat. And I'm the chef. It's our Ratatouille special. Ben, we're grabbing our broomsticks for the witches. We've got a spooky hotline caller. An update from our woman who was in love with the ghost of Prince Albert. And your tarot card dial letters. Listen to our Halloween specials, search for The Girl's Bathroom.

• 49:10Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, it's, it's a very complex place to be when you, when you've been dealing with a life or death situation where it's like, I've got to have this surgery and you don't know what the outcome's going to be. And yes, on one hand, you can come out with this amazing, broader perspective of life and understanding that it's also fragile and ephemeral and precious. But alongside that, or equally, you're left with an anxiety that, oh my God, life's so fragile and ephemeral and, and it's, you know, it's slipping through my fingers. It's, you can apply a positive and a negative to, to that same thought process. Where do you

• 49:54Fearne Cotton?

  tend to sort of sway most? The fear or, or the, the broader perspective? Well, I think that I used to say that it was, I remember before I did a podcast ages ago, maybe it was with Elizabeth Day, actually. I was thinking about, I was worried about doing the podcast. And I think I had said in my head, I was like, the thing that I was going to say first of all, when I like got in there was like, because of my PTSD, I have loads of personalities. So I don't know which one's going to show up. And that, you kind of reminded me of that because there are these different elements to you that want to speed up then slow down. And you feel like really different people. So like there's

• 50:35Fearne Cotton?

  the old Louise and the new Louise. And, and sometimes I do feel really conflicted. I do feel like something's very different this year. Like I do feel as though I don't care. I feel, I feel like I've, hmm, I feel, I know that I have nothing to gain by trying to be so busy that I'm just like racing to the grave, like that I'm just speeding up my days. And that Feels really nice, like I I feel happy to move more slowly. And I also feel like I just wanna prioritize the things that actually mean something to me, which has been really hard because I've, you know, been a people piece of my whole life.

• 51:20Fearne Cotton?

  And now I feel like I don't need to be that person. And I also have, I I used to feel as though there was always someone judging me or like marking my work, that like everything had to perform really well and I had to be really polished. And now I think actually, like, you know, likability doesn't equate to success. Like, you know, there are so many other metrics. Yes. To success. And so I feel better about my relationship with social media and my work and my relationship with my partner and my son. And I I feel in a good spot. I think I'm hoping like this year is just gonna be really wonderful for everybody.

• 52:01Fearne Cotton?

  That sounds like liberation. I'm really interested in the whole notion of being likeable. Hence, I've I've just written a book about it that's out soon. And I and I'm so, and I've been even thinking about it since writing it and wish I could add things to it. Because it's constantly new thoughts and likability is such a strange sort of nebulous subject matter. Because, you know, you've been in the game of social media and that being part of your profile and your work, much like me. But you've also been on reality TV where that's a whole, you know, other bag of onions, where you've got people judging your every move on that. And likability comes into place so heavily, it becomes a currency for all of it.

• 52:44Fearne Cotton?

  But what like, what even, what is it? Like, how many people have to like you for you to be likeable? Do the right kind of people have to like you for you to be likeable? Do you have to be likeable consistently for it to count? Like, what, how how does it work? What does it even mean? It's such a load of bollocks. And actually, the only thing I can land on is that it all equals compliance. That's all it is, is being able to shape shift enough in any situation, environment or people you're around to not rock the boat or piss them off. That's all it is. And then you're likeable. And then you're likeable. It's really nothing to do with you at all, because actually then. I'm going on a rant here. No, I love this. But then you're only being liked for this weird

• 53:29Fearne Cotton?

  projection that you're putting out there. You're not actually being liked for who you are at all. So, so it's actually pointless because you're not. You're acting. You're, you're, yeah, you're, you're a little fictional character you've built to not piss anyone off is likeable. Yeah, you're playing the game well, well done, you, it works. And that's the only thing that I can comfort myself with when I think, oh, fuck, did that person leave thinking I was an asshole? Or did I come across like a weirdo or whatever it's like? Well, I might be a weirdo, who like, yes, do you know what I mean? And the best people are. Yeah, exactly. And whatever. So I, I, I get where you're at. You know, I've probably reached that, if I'm older than you, I've reached that

• 54:14Fearne Cotton?

  further down the line. I wish I'd reached it in my mid 30s because I think if you're starting the year like that, and I'm pretty sure it's been accelerated by every bit of trauma you've been through, because you're fast tracking yourself to, I don't give a fuck. What a great way to start January, I'd say. I'd say so. I'm so excited to read your book. Can you send me a copy? Thank you. Of course. Because I'm fascinated in this topic. Me too. And I, but what, I think what helps is looking at the people that you actually admire and learning that the people, that often those people are liked by a small group of, like a community, but also kind of hated by loads of people as well. And like, and seeing that they're fine with that.

• 54:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, who cares? Is, is quite cool. Yeah, it's really cool. I'm like the people that just want to be liked by everybody, like, they're not really going anywhere. And, and as you said, like, how, what, how do you even like quantify that? What's the end goal? Like? What is it? How, how like? I'm the most liked you are. How liked you need to be? Yeah, but like, I mean, unless we become like a football player, that's just not going to happen. Yeah, even then, they get those shits. I know, and they're out there cheating, so everyone's unhappy. Exactly. It's all total bollocks. So my penultimate question, my question to you is, where is your happy place? Great, great question and such a nice thing to be able to think about.

• 55:42Fearne Cotton?

  For me, skiing, so just total, like, no one can bother you when you're skiing. So coming down a mountain on two planks of wood. Cold air like blowing against your face, feeling totally liberated and like, you know, a little bit dangerous as well. Yeah. For me, that's really good, like in the mountains. I'm the worst skier, I've only been once, I was so bad. And I went with a really good skier, which put me off, so I need to, I need to get back, I need to try again. Yes, let's do a big trip. Okay, I'm there. A big ski trip. Okay, I'm coming. I was speaking to this about. I'll be on the kids' hope. This with Sam and Pete last night and we were like, just, because skiing's so funny, because even, it's, it's better when people. When you're shit, it's fun.

• 56:26Fearne Cotton?

  A real mixture of people, it's so funny. Okay, sign me up, I'm there. Yeah. And my last question is, we are going to compile a happy place playlist, so music that makes you feel really good. Doesn't matter what the genre is, it could be a song that makes you want to cry your eyes out. Hmm. What would be the song you would put on the happy place playlist? Oh my God, sorry to do this to the playlist. For me, it's gonna have to be Lose Yourself by Eminem. Let's whack it on there. That's just my, my, it's my, like, um, like, nothing else in the world matters. Yes. Just that song, like, I can overcome anything. Yeah, it's powerful. Yeah, it's kind of aggressive. Okay, what's going on there? So it would be that. Well, I think everything that you're doing is so marvellous.

• 57:10Fearne Cotton?

  It's so incredible that you're putting everything you've been through behind this exceptional petition and campaign. You know, this is, I'm sure not going to stop at the petition gaining the amount of signatures needed. This is a, a life's work for you now, you know, you've been through something incredibly tough. And now you're using all of that energy to create, you know, incredible systemic change. It's, it's really wonderful, so I wish you all the luck with it. And I'm really hoping that everyone listening to this gets behind it, signs the petition, you know, tells all of their friends to listen if they're interested in this subject. Or even if they're not, they should bloody well learn about it, because it's, it's so, it's so interesting.

• 57:49Fearne Cotton?

  And, um, and for you, sharing your fertility journey and your PTSD journey, it's, it's helping a lot of people out there. So yeah, amazing stuff all round. Thank you so much, Louise. Thank you, Fan. Oh, thanks Louise, you. Excellent human being. God, I relate to so much of what Louise was saying about never feeling like you're quite doing enough and never taking your foot off the gas. And we all know that that's detrimental. So if you're in that headspace too, we're all in it together and we can only try but to go and have a hot bath here and there or give ourselves a bit of headspace when we're feeling super overwhelmed. And I just wish Louise so much luck with everything that she's doing at

• 58:32Fearne Cotton?

  the moment, which I know is taking a lot of energy alongside everything else going on in her life, but she believes is so worthwhile as we all do. So do sign that petition if you can and go and check out what Louise is doing on social media where you'll learn a whole lot more about it. Now, are you part of the Happy Place Book Club? If not, it's not an exclusive club. Everyone's welcome. You can most definitely join. Just pop over to at Happy Place Book Club on Instagram. That is where we natter about the book that we're reading each month. And the book for February is a delightful book. I urge you to read called A Year of Nothing. And it's a nonfiction by Emma

• 59:12Fearne Cotton?

  Gannon. Here's the premise. Quite ironically, after years of writing about work, productivity, and wellness, journalist Emma, and great friend of mine, found herself massively burnt out by it all. So A Year of Nothing follows her quiet rebellion against the cult of doing and striving and pushing, which most of us are in. This is the kind of rebellion that we absolutely love. And this book has given me so much. I was nodding along to it. I was yearning for quiet time. I was wondering how burnt out I actually am whilst reading it. There's lots of food for thought

• 59:52Fearne Cotton?

  in there. So, over four seasons, Emma steps away from the noise and rediscovers joy in life with simple pleasures from dog borrowing and dopamine dressing to relearning how to swim and embrace a child-free life. So if you want to read that book, just head to at Happy Place Book Club to learn more about it. Go grab the book. It's bloody brilliant. And by the way, keep an On our podcast feed this week because something new and very fun is launching that I'm looking forward to. So if you love this podcast, you definitely need to be following and you definitely need to check out what we've got coming. So I think you'll like it. We'll chat sooner than you think. All right. Until next time, a massive thanks

• 1:00:35Fearne Cotton?

  again to Louise, to the producer, Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios and to you, you are lovely.

• 1:01:09Speaker 03

  For investors at the highest level of sophistication, those with strong advisory support, the natural outcome is two distinct portfolios, one public, one private. Each plays a different role in the overall strategy. Uncover new investment opportunities for you at creativeplanning.com/new.

• 1:01:25Speaker 06

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• 1:01:56Speaker 06

  Hello, I'm Joanna Fletcher. And I'm Marco Burchella. And this is Boots Off. We are friends who have spent a decade together, walking up mountains, across deserts, and along coastlines with some seriously awesome groups of humans. And something happens when you're out there, feet on the ground, surrounded by nature. The conversations just spill out of you. This series is about the adversities that lead to adventure. The adventures that lead to adversity. And how life can be one big adventure in itself. Listen every Thursday. Just search for Boots Off.