Andy Serkis, Vol. II

Is there an actor who has contributed more to pop culture the last 25 years than Andy Serkis? From LORD OF THE RINGS and STAR WARS to Marvel, the Apes films, THE BATMAN, and more, his resume is unsurpassed. He joins Josh to chat about it all including his latest directing effort, ANIMAL FARM. SUPPORT THE SHOW BY SUPPORTING OUR SPONSORS! Quince -- Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Quince.com/HAPPYSAD ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠for free shipping and 365-day returns. Limited Time Offer–Get Huel today with my exclusive offer of 15% OFF online with my code happy15 at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://huel.com/happy15.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ New Customers Only. Thank you to Huel for partnering and supporting our show! UPCOMING EVENTS! 5/3 -- Charlie Cox in NY -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Tickets here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 5/5 -- Stanley Tucci in NY -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Tickets here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 5/13 -- Matt & Ross Duffer in LA -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠Tickets here⁠⁠⁠⁠ 5/17 -- Billy Eichner in NY -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Tickets here⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 0:59Josh Horowitz?

  Have you at this point eliminated the word precious from your day to day? Like, can you say that without like some-

• 1:05Speaker 03

  No, no, I can't say that. I mean, I can't say that word without, you know, but also mostly nearly every day I bump, I'll bump into someone who you asked me to do Gollum's for.

• 1:15Josh Horowitz?

  Well, they probably either ask you or they want to do it for you.

• 1:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, or do it for me. I've heard some amazing, amazing Gollums and Smegles.

• 1:23Speaker 04

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, sad, confused begins.

• 1:31Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. We have an absolute icon in the house today. Andy Serkis. He's Gollum. He's Ulysses Claw. He's Snoke. He's King Kong. He's also the director of the new film Animal Farm. And we're talking about all of it today. Thanks, guys, as always, for checking out the podcast, for subscribing. Remember, hit that subscribe button if you haven't already on YouTube, on Spotify, however you're doing it. Before we get to Andy, super quick reminder, as always, patreon.com/happy, sad, confused. We're doing so many events, including the Duffer Brothers Live in Los Angeles, May 13th, LA. Come on out. I don't get out there often to do these. Live events. So if you're a Stranger Things fan, if you're a fan of Happy, Say Confused,

• 2:13Josh Horowitz?

  get your tickets now. Link is in the bio. We've also got events coming up with Billy Eichner, with Stanley Tucci, with Charlie Cox. So much. That's all in New York. All the information is in the show notes and at patreon.com/happy say confused. Okay, a quick little intro to Andy Serkis, not that he needs one. He was here to promote Animal Farm, which is, of course, is based on the iconic book. This is an animated film. It stars the likes of Seth Rogen and Woody Harrelson. A great piece of work from Andy. Always happy to support what he's up to. But also, this was a good opportunity for a deep dive into, yes, Lord of the Rings and a little sneak peek at The Hunt for Gollum, which Andy is returning to star in as Gollum, as Sméagol,

• 2:56Josh Horowitz?

  and also as the director. A huge opportunity for him. Very excited about that. We talk Star Wars, though. We talk Apes. My arguably one of my favorite franchises going. His performance as Caesar, absolutely iconic. He's one of the good guys. He can talk with expertise like nobody else about performance capture. He's the guy that really made that art form what it is. This was a blast. So without any further ado, please enjoy me and the one and only Andy Serkis. Andy Serkis, back where he belongs on Happy, Say Confused. It's good to see you, man. Congratulations on everything. Okay, so we're spreading the good word today. We're gonna start on Animal Farm.

• 3:35Josh Horowitz?

  We'll dive off a little bit, but Animal Farm is, look, movies take a while. All movies are labors of love.

• 3:42Speaker 03

  And some are more labors than others.

• 3:44Josh Horowitz?

  This is a long labor. This has been gestating a while, probably as long as I've known you. Maybe we've been talking about this one. You could have given up a long time ago. Why is Animal Farm the passion project that is for you, man?

• 3:56Speaker 03

  It just was one of the first books that really spoke to me and hit me hard as a kid growing up. And I remember reading it vividly, reading it on the on the bus to school. And I just had a sense that this this kind of fable, this fairy tale, that had darker themes underneath. And it was, I think it was a kind of similar moment for me, that realizing that that literature could do that, that could two things could be going on. At the same time and and and I so I I then saw a theatrical production of it at the National Theatre in London. And I kind of thought, I wonder, I'd love to do a version of this. And then cut to years later, we're making the Planet of the Apes movie.

• 4:37Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 4:37Speaker 03

  And and there's the moment in Rise of the Planet of the Apes, first one, where Caesar, um you know, who's been incarcerated in the facility with with all these other disparate group of apes. Uh he leads them to freedom and they break out. And I thought, wow, there really hasn't been an a version of Animal Farm for a long time. There was the nineteen fifty four.

• 4:58Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 4:59Speaker 03

  Animated version. Then there was a nineteen ninety kind of animatronic version, real, like live action with some real animals, in fact.

• 5:06Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 5:06Speaker 03

  Um. And I just thought this, this is, it's the time to do it. And we had just started the imaginary in my company and and this was going to be the first film that we were making.

• 5:16Josh Horowitz?

  And it was going to be performance capture back back in the day, of course, right? So that's a big shift, needless to say, to go from performance capture to add traditional animation. And I know I've heard you talk about this a little bit, but give me a sense like, was there a lightning bolt moment where you accepted, you know what, as much as I love performance capture, it's not the right medium for this?

• 5:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, it felt like, I mean, if we'd gone down the performance capture route and we had prepared, we spent a long time kind of working out how to make the pigs work physically and, you know, we experimented with with all sorts of things to you know, to create the box of the shire horse and all sort, you know, we brought, we even brought in, um, you know, the stage show, the warhorse.

• 5:54Josh Horowitz?

  Right, yeah.

• 5:55Speaker 03

  Right, we even brought in the warhorse and we put markers on the warhorse and they had the puppeteers puppet, you know, so we were doing all these experiments with with performance capture. Then we sort of realized that if we make it a live action, performance capture driven movie like the Apes movies, it would, it would have inevitably become a darker film.

• 6:13Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 6:14Speaker 03

  And we would have to engage on a a level of reality that that perhaps was gonna make it lose its innocence.

• 6:21Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 6:22Speaker 03

  And or or the covering or the wrapper of a of a of an innocent fable. And so we sort of pulled back and we thought, no, uh we really want to make this for a young audience and accessible to a young or to a family audience.

• 6:35Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 6:35Speaker 03

  Where they could, the where the purpose became, let's make this a debate between young inquiring minds and their parents and their grandparents, you know, so. Because that's and and and sort of so this was back in sort of two thousand and I suppose two thousand fourteen fifteen and way before political events have come to how they are now and and the world that we're living in, you know, this fifteen years later from when we first started. And it just seemed to becoming more and more relevant. The story just seems to scarily become more and more relevant.

• 7:08Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, I saw you wearing the hat at your premiere last night, midnight, um, make Animal Farm fiction again.

• 7:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:14Josh Horowitz?

  Um, I mean, sadly, Animal Farm will probably always be very resident to an audience. But talk to me a little bit about how the meaning of it has changed for you. You just alluded to this in recent years. Why is this film, you know, why, why do we need this? Why do kids especially? Why does the young people, you think, need to wake up and see this movie, you think?

• 7:31Speaker 03

  Because, um, you know, we, we are, are living in such complex, difficult times where, you know, the themes of the book really examine, obviously, power corrupt, corrupting, absolute power corrupting, absolutely, and and disinformation, misinformation, fake news, and and the and the and the destruction of truth as a, as a, as a, a value that we, you know, used to uphold. And and and it just seems increasingly and rapidly and sort of, we were sort of heading towards this, this time when nothing, you know, we, we don't care. Somehow we just are stopping caring. Maybe it's over,

• 8:13Speaker 03

  you know, uh, being hit so hard with, with imagery day in, day out of horrific things around the world where we become desensitized, or we shut off and go the other route and we sort of lose ourselves in, in, uh, in a, in a way that is unreal and not connecting. So, and especially for young minds, it's like, how do we navigate this?

• 8:35Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 8:35Speaker 03

  How do we actually have serious kind of conversations about, about important things? But but also not lose, I mean, Animal Farm as a book has got a lot of humor in it.

• 8:46Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 8:46Speaker 03

  You know, and it's ironic and and and and very funny. It's outright funny at times. So, so we, we wanted to, to make a version of this film that. Really spoke to, to, yeah, the, the family, uh, but, but it was gonna be an entertainment too.

• 9:03Josh Horowitz?

  Right. You can't lose sight of that. But it's, it's kind of like you're like drawing them in. It's like, come on, it's, it's Zootopia. Just come on in. But no, no, wait, there's something a little bit more heavy behind it. And I think that's why, I mean, we all, I think probably most of us, I remember reading Animal Farm when I'm a kid. And like, you also feel kind of like, I don't know, cool and adult when you kind of realize there's something more behind it.

• 9:23Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 9:24Josh Horowitz?

  We all kind of had that epiphany, whether it's a book or a film, you're like, oh, like, I'm, I'm, I'm learning the nuance behind this.

• 9:30Speaker 03

  Absolutely, absolutely. And that is, uh, I mean, that's a great word to describe, you know, where, where we're at. We've, we're losing the art of nuance because everything's very black and white. Everything is right or wrong, or evil, or great, or, you know, it's, it's all, it's, it's not, i- i- there is, there's, the discussion isn't, isn't happening. And, and all the listening isn't happening. And the empathy to be able to listen is, is we're, we're losing. And that's, that, that is why this is, it's, it is crucial at this time. And, and, and so we, we had to make some adaptations to, to, to, to, to the novel, to, to kind of really dig into those themes. And one of the things that I was

• 10:12Speaker 03

  excited about exploring was putting the audience in, you know, in the mindset of, of, of the animals. And that doesn't happen in the book because it's quite objective, you know, the, the story is, is, you know, it's actually the, the pigs, although they're important characters, are very off, offstage characters in the book.

• 10:31Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 10:31Speaker 03

  And I wanted to get right into the bunker of where, of where they were, to see what was going on, where the power was, was being held. And, and, but also at the same time, to take a young piglet. Uh, we, and we, we created this character Lucky, who, who becomes the conduit for us into the story. Um, this young, innocent piglet who considers himself just an animal, just that, one of the, one of the animals on the farm that has come through the rebellion and created this utopia and they're, you know, they have freedom and, and then who becomes cor- corrupted.

• 11:06Speaker 03

  And being made to realize that he is, he is part of the elite. He is, he's not just an animal, he's a pig. And, and the separation of the, of those, and I think that's one of the key, key things in our film. It's really saying, are you an animal or are you a pig? And as he becomes corrupted by this, by this, not, not, not a sort of overtly evil character, but a fun-loving, avuncular joker, kind of, you know, populist figure that, that you can't help not like, because it's Seth Rogen.

• 11:38Josh Horowitz?

  It's, it's very smart casting to kind of lure you in with that, because like, who doesn't love Seth? And he, he generates so much goodwill. And then you're like, hmm, this is an interesting arc for this guy.

• 11:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:47Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, you, you, I was gonna talk about the cast. The cast is stacked. It's, you called in some friends, some, some new friends. Um, is Woody now like a good luck charm? Woody Harrelson, you've worked with him a few times.

• 11:58Speaker 03

  Woody and I have become very close friends and we've worked both on stage now. We did a, we did a theatre piece a couple of years ago.

• 12:04Josh Horowitz?

  That must have been amazing.

• 12:05Speaker 03

  Which was incredible. It was the first time we'd been on stage for, well, I hadn't been on stage for 22 years and Woody hadn't been on stage for 18 years. And so we sort of held each other's hands and said, come on, let's do this. It was, it was an amazing play. Um, so, but, but, but he, I mean, he loved the book as well. And I think the, the, the fact where we got lucky with our cast was because everyone adored the book and was, and saw the value in it.

• 12:29Josh Horowitz?

  Well, they trust you too. They know.

• 12:30Speaker 03

  Well, I, I, I hope so. Um, but you know, we, like you say, you know, I mean, but people like, for instance, Seth, um, Jim Parsons and Glenn Close, we approached 12 years ago and they stuck with the project. Um, you know, Woody came on board because he loved, he loved the character of Boxer and then we, and Gaten Matarazzo was perfect to, to take this young, innocent piglet role and, and who, who becomes corrupted. And then the scales fall from his eyes and he realizes he has to make amends, you know?

• 12:59Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 12:59Speaker 03

  And Iman Valani, you know, who, who again, she, she adored the book and, and so we, we, we gave her two characters to play. And, uh, you know, one sort of populist pig following, kind of, uh, you know, worshiping the leader. And then the one who's the kind of the Jiminy Cricket, who's the sort of the conscience of the piece and, and, and brings Lucky, Gaten's character back to, back to earth.

• 13:30Speaker 00

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• 14:01Speaker 05

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• 14:29Josh Horowitz?

  I have to say, look, we've probably talked for virtually all of your projects, it seems like, over the career. And to see your trajectory, especially as a filmmaker, is really remarkable. For those that don't know, kind of the origin story, it's connected, of course, to Lord of the Rings. It's very much Peter Jackson calling you up, correct me if I'm wrong, and saying, "Second unit, Hobbit, are you in?" I mean, could it be argued that Peter, for a variety of reasons of casting you as Gollum and also making that phone call, is the most important professional, I don't know, godfather in your career?

• 15:07Speaker 03

  Without question, without question. I mean, Peter's been so loyal and he saw, he saw very early on, while we were making Lord of the Rings, that I wanted to direct. He knew that I wanted to direct. In fact, in fact, some of the scenes on Lord of the Rings, I actually directed some of the Gollum Sméagol, the Sméagol scene where he and Deagle fight.

• 15:29Josh Horowitz?

  The back and forth in Two Towers?

• 15:30Speaker 03

  No, no, not that one. In The Return of the King, where Sméagol and Deagle fight. And for, for, there was, there was a reason why. One day, you know, Fran Walsh, who was going to be directing it and Pete was directing another unit and then that didn't happen. And so Pete said, will you direct the scene? And so, so, because, and he'd seen a short film that I'd made and he just knew that I wanted to direct, you know.

• 15:54Josh Horowitz?

  That's putting a lot of trust in someone like, that's like, I mean, you know this now as someone that directs yourself.

• 16:00Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 16:01Josh Horowitz?

  To make that phone call.

• 16:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 16:02Josh Horowitz?

  Who knows?

• 16:03Speaker 03

  No, and it was, it was, it was literally, it was an incredible day, actually, because it was the day that we got the funding to start the Imaginarium, which was my performance capture studio. And it was the very same day Pete said, phoned me up and said, look, we want an, sort of someone who knows about performance to direct the second unit on The Hobbit, because we've got thirteen dwarves, we've got an enormous ensemble, main cast who are going to be going between units. So, so rather than sort of like a stunt director or, you know, just, you know, which, which you sometimes get on with the second unit, he wanted someone who could.

• 16:37Josh Horowitz?

  And understand performance and how to elicit performance, so. I mean, talk about full circle. Like, we're going to be talking about this, I know, in more detail down the line, but indulge me for a second, because your next project is The Hunt for Gollum.

• 16:48Speaker 03

  I know.

• 16:49Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, this is so exciting. I just had Elijah Wood in here, we're talking. And I asked him what, you know, I'll ask you, and I don't mean it as a negative, but like, I think a lot of people, when they heard about this, was like, why? Like, what, like, like, like, what's, why does, why does this story need to be told? And what Elijah said to me is like, trust, trust the integrity of this project. This is all the people you love doing it. Can you, can you sum up for me, though, like, why this story?

• 17:13Speaker 03

  I, I mean.

• 17:14Josh Horowitz?

  Needs to be told?

• 17:15Speaker 03

  I, I, I think, no, I really don't want to give too much away about it, because we will be talking about this further down the line, probably in about a year's time. But, but, but there is so much more to be.

• 17:29Speaker 03

  Doug out of this very complex character, the most perhaps complex character that Tolkien wrote, because he kept revisiting it as well.

• 17:36Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 17:37Speaker 03

  You know, multiple times. And so, so uh, there was a desire to, for a series of Return to Middle Earth movies, and this seemed to be a great way in, to, to be able to bring some of the cast back, but also, but, but also see, this is a very much more intimate story.

• 17:57Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 17:57Speaker 03

  Um, and, and a cycle, a deep dive, a psychological investigation into a character who has become, you know, sort of absorbed into the public consciousness in rather a large way. So, so it sort of feels like there's a, there is a real relevance.

• 18:13Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 18:13Speaker 03

  You know, I mean, I mean, I'll give you an example, the whole notion of addiction that, that we ascribed to the character of Sméagol Gollum, and, and, and so many people over the years have, who I've met at conventions, who I've met, you know, or who I've met in, at randomly, who've, who've said, I really relate to that character. I totally relate to the inner voice in my head. And, and, or, you know, addicts who I've met who have said that, you know, Gollum really spoke to me as a character and helped me through difficult times. So, so I think there, there's a, there's still a wealth of, of stuff to be, to be got out of the character. And, and, and, and it sits very neatly between, between the Hobbit trilogy and, and the Lord of the Rings. And it, it's, it is a great, it's

• 18:58Speaker 03

  a great way, I think, of bringing the audiences back into, into this world.

• 19:01Josh Horowitz?

  I, is Gollum the protagonist? Is Strider the protagonist? Like, who's the hero of the story?

• 19:06Speaker 03

  I say nothing at this point about the story.

• 19:09Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, we won't talk about the story. Can I just say, though, you announced the cast last week at Sin of Cawdor. I'm very, very excited about this. Everybody is. It's obviously a mix of some familiar faces. Ian McKellen is back. Pace is back. Elijah is back.

• 19:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:21Josh Horowitz?

  Uh, but you've cast the hell out of this with some new faces, too.

• 19:24Speaker 03

  Indeed.

• 19:25Josh Horowitz?

  Leo Woodall, if you don't know his work, he's got the goods.

• 19:28Speaker 03

  He's amazing.

• 19:28Josh Horowitz?

  Kate Winslet, we know has the goods.

• 19:30Speaker 03

  He's all right.

• 19:31Josh Horowitz?

  He's okay.

• 19:32Speaker 03

  You know.

• 19:32Josh Horowitz?

  Um, and I have to say, Jamie Dornan is a buddy, and I, I adore him. Those are big shoes to fill. Can you just talk to me about, like, I know, there was some discussion of Vigo, and I, I assume, like, at some, he's just not in the place where he's interested in doing that for a variety of reasons, all good, but like. Casting that, can you just talk about like, why Jamie was the guy for you?

• 19:53Speaker 03

  I, I, I really, really don't want to go into it right now, because I do want to save that for, you know, further down the line and, and it, we're, we're at a, a kind of crunch stage now of just about, we're just about to start shooting. That's where I was at, you know, we're not far off shooting.

• 20:06Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 20:07Speaker 03

  So, so I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna save all discussion about, about casting. Uh, um, other than that we are thrilled that Jamie's doing it. I mean, we're, you know, absolutely thrilled. And by the way, so is Vigo. So.

• 20:19Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, good.

• 20:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's.

• 20:21Josh Horowitz?

  Seal of approval, that means a lot.

• 20:22Speaker 03

  Hundred percent.

• 20:23Josh Horowitz?

  That's good. Well, he's a class act, as we know.

• 20:25Speaker 03

  He really is.

• 20:25Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Um, let's just take a step back even beyond Lord of the Rings, because like, people know this, but like, when you, when I rattle off the credits, it, your place in pop culture is unsurpassed, sir. Okay, so Gollum, King Kong, Alfred, Ulysses Claw, Caesar, and not one but two great Star Wars characters. And that's like, we haven't talked about theater and all the, the live action stuff you'd like. Uh, just give me a sense of like, I mean, you know, you can't like bask in that every day, but when I list something like that, that's a nice feeling, I would imagine for you, Andy.

• 20:58Speaker 03

  It is. And I look, you know what? If you'd said to, to me when I was starting off acting, that I would be involved in these projects at this level, uh, you know, at this scale, and then directing at this, you know, these kinds of movies, I, I just wouldn't have believed it. I, I, I, when I started out as a theater actor, I fully believed that, um, and I was lucky to work in a theater that thought it was providing a service to a community. It was very community oriented theater and, and you felt like you were really doing something for the community, you know, and that you were telling stories that were communicating with them. And, and that was, that was good, that was good enough for me. I was, I felt like acting had always had a purpose.

• 21:36Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 21:36Speaker 03

  You know, that you weren't, it wasn't just a self-serving kind of vain activity that it really, and, and I was taught that by the first director I ever worked with, theater director Jonathan Petherbridge, he's, you know, that was the ethos of the company. So I've always believed the storytelling as a, as a massively powerful tool for change and for, and for connecting with audiences. And so to be able to, you know, twenty. Well, I have only twenty five years there. I wish, you know, forty years later. Um, to have been through these journeys is is i- i- it's incredible and.

• 22:10Josh Horowitz?

  On the meaning of all these characters to like everybody you meet every single day. It's just like they're all the tattoos, what they've meant to like their lives. Like, these are not just things that go through you. These are things that really change people.

• 22:22Speaker 03

  That's right. I mean, you realize the power of storytelling is is actually our savior at the moment, I think, you know. Seeing, finding truth through through allegory and through fictitious worlds, but allow us to say something about the human condition. You know, that's that's really been the backbone of what I've always, my approach has always been. And and then to be able to enter into that world of actually creating characters using the technology to to enable you. And a sort of a twenty first century actors tool that enables any actor to play anything is is really kind of, it is like stepping through the looking glass and I count myself incredibly fortunate.

• 23:02Josh Horowitz?

  All right, let me rattle off related to some of these roles, some quick questions on each of these. So like, you know, I adore the Apes movies. I'm obsessed with what Rupert did, what especially Matt Reeves did in those last two movies with you. Um, I mean, so much of it was about physicality, especially in the beginning when you didn't really have much speech. But like, do you remember in Rise, like, as I recall, it's essentially no and Caesar is home? Like, that's essentially all you had to work with.

• 23:27Speaker 03

  A- a- absolutely.

• 23:28Josh Horowitz?

  Like, the effort, the thought that went into kind of like how you were going to deliver those lines? Do you remember that?

• 23:35Speaker 03

  I do, I do. And and I but I did base Caesar on a a real life chimpanzee called Oliver, who was it was very human like in his behavior. Uh, he used to sit, he would literally sit cross, you know, sort of with with his legs crossed. And and and he had very human facial expressions. And in fact, he became the subject of a lot of DNA experimentation in the seventies. He was taken around the world and and and to find out if he was the progeny of hu- a human being and and an ape, because he.

• 24:04Josh Horowitz?

  My god.

• 24:05Speaker 03

  Yeah. I I mean, they finally decided his DNA was was.

• 24:09Josh Horowitz?

  I'm relieved.

• 24:11Speaker 03

  But but he literally um had a face that that looked much, much more human. You can see on on YouTube, you can find Oliver and that. And he was completely bipedal, which is

• 24:21Josh Horowitz?

  Wow.

• 24:21Speaker 03

  whi- which is, you know, not how chimpanzees move.

• 24:24Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 24:26Speaker 03

  But so that was that was the sort of the way the way in for me, but I remember reading the script for Rise and and it was just the power of the it was a great script by by Rick Ja- uh Rick and Jaffa and Amanda Silva.

• 24:38Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 24:38Speaker 03

  And um I it it was it didn't read as an ape, it just read as this amazing character. And I almost forgot he was an ape because he because he was brought up as a human with humans and then thrown into a facility with apes.

• 24:53Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, the arc of that through those three films, it's like what a gift for an actor. Unbelievable.

• 24:58Speaker 03

  To play, I mean, again, to play a character all the way from sort of infancy through to to death and over the course of three movies, not only that, but it's not just seeing an ape grow up, it's seeing an ape gain conscious human consciousness, gain kind of um you know, a new physical vocabulary in each of the movies and and and a verbal vocabulary in a way of signing and a way of communicating, but also, I mean, Caesar is literally is one of my favorite characters because because I think I wish more world leaders will like him, really.

• 25:33Josh Horowitz?

  No, no, total.

• 25:34Speaker 03

  He's got he's got humility, he's got strength, he's he's he he has empathy.

• 25:40Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 25:41Speaker 03

  You know, and and he's a great leader, he's a really great leader.

• 25:45Josh Horowitz?

  I'll follow him over Koba any day. Um, I would not follow Snoke as a leader.

• 25:50Speaker 03

  No.

• 25:51Josh Horowitz?

  He's still in there. Um, so Snoke, one change that came to you was Snoke in Star Wars, did he position him as the big bad that was going to be there through the trilogy?

• 26:00Speaker 03

  Um, I I don't I don't really know. I can't really remember, it's sort of a blur with Snoke. Snoke is the one character that was that was a massive challenge because he was sort of evolving as in terms of writing as we were going along and.

• 26:17Josh Horowitz?

  Within even that first film or even like you're talking into the second film?

• 26:20Speaker 03

  From that into the se- into the second, yeah, but I mean, so it was still unclear, I think, where where he was at, what what he actually represented in that first film.

• 26:28Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 26:29Speaker 03

  And um. So that, so it was, it was, that, that, that was challenging. Plus, the physi- the physical difficulty of being up on a, because it was pretty much a, you know, a, um, a hologram for the first Ray film. So he was, I was fifty feet away and thirty feet up, you know, away from my scene partners. So, you know.

• 26:50Josh Horowitz?

  Hi, Dan, how's it going?

• 26:51Speaker 03

  Hi, yeah.

• 26:52Josh Horowitz?

  Say some crafty for me.

• 26:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. You know, um, so it was, it, it, um, look, not that that was entirely alien to me. I played King Kong, so I knew what, what it was like to be.

• 27:03Josh Horowitz?

  Why are they keeping me apart from the cast on all these movies? What, what do they know?

• 27:06Speaker 03

  What, yeah, exactly. Um, but I, but he, yeah, he was, he was, I, it, it took a while to really get into the, into the headspace of that character. And, and, and actually, it was, we, we did facial capture and vocal kind of work, uh, you know, after the main shoot, me and JJ, and we then started to find, to find him more and to define him. But it wasn't until the second film that, that I kind of really felt I knew, I knew who he was. And, and, and then, and then by then, it was just like a little too late because I, I, and I'll never forget reading the script for it because we, you know, you go to Pinewood and you're locked in a room and they take your mobile phone off you and then you, you know, you, you start reading the script and it was just like, oh, this

• 27:48Speaker 03

  is getting really good now. Ryan Johnson said this is, you know, he's a much more meaty role in this. And I'm like, wow, this is getting great. This, this is such a good scene. And then it's just like, all right, you've just been cut in half. Okay.

• 27:59Josh Horowitz?

  Sorry, what?

• 28:00Speaker 03

  Bye bye.

• 28:02Josh Horowitz?

  So, what an emotional roller coaster. That being said, it's a great scene. The throne room sequence is one of my favorite in those films.

• 28:07Speaker 03

  I do, I do love that. I love playing that scene with, with Daisy and, and with Adam, you know, amazing. That was amazing. Um.

• 28:14Josh Horowitz?

  Good news is, uh, your other Star Wars character is canonically still alive. We don't know.

• 28:19Speaker 03

  Well, exactly, exactly.

• 28:21Josh Horowitz?

  So there was, so of course in Andor, you make quite an impression and quite a departure. Do we think he's still out there? Do we think he survived the fall?

• 28:28Speaker 03

  Well, look, I mean, you know, he's, he didn't, I don't think he did it fall. I think he went back in and, and, you know, there's a rather nice, large drinks cabinet in the, uh, you know, in Central Command that has been, uh, left behind. So I think he's waiting for his moment, you know.

• 28:43Josh Horowitz?

  Did you any communication with Tony Gilroy after that first season? Was there ever anything discussed?

• 28:48Speaker 03

  It it was no, it wasn't. I mean, it was strange because while we were coming to the end of the you know, so promote well, while we were promoting the first series, they'd started the second and he they purposefully kind of asked me not to reveal what happened to him with, I think, the prospect of coming back and then and then

• 29:08Josh Horowitz?

  And then nothing.

• 29:09Speaker 03

  Nothing.

• 29:10Josh Horowitz?

  How rude.

• 29:10Speaker 03

  I know. I know. It was like, come on, guys. You can't have it always.

• 29:17Speaker 06

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• 30:26Josh Horowitz?

  It must have been such a treat to you'd worked with Matt Reeves, obviously, as we discussed. He comes to you with another iconic character to be a part.

• 30:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:33Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, Matt is top of the mountain for me as a filmmaker and I love what he did with the Batman. How did he not that you have to be sold on playing Alfred, but like we've seen a lot of interpretations of Alfred and you want to make it your own.

• 30:44Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 30:45Josh Horowitz?

  What did he say to you? What did you land on in terms of like how you were going to kind of come up with your own unique Alfred?

• 30:51Speaker 03

  I I I wanted Alfred to, you know, actually Matt, both Matt and I were really investigating the role of the father figure, uh, uh, you know, and what and what that is in real life to us. Um, he he has his version. I certainly have mine as a, you know, uh, I had a very distant father and and and my own kind of feelings of being a father and being sort of separated from my family for a lot of for due to work. So so it that that was that was the thing. It's Alfred represented a sort of, he had a lack of paternal instinct, but wanted it, but couldn't ever get there. And and was and at the moment of of greatest need for for Bruce, you know, he wasn't there for

• 31:35Speaker 03

  his parents. And so so he was carrying that, you know, carrying that guilt and and and and it was just the desire to try, you know, I think there's a real desire to make amends for that, which which is which is what what their connection. He could teach him skills. He could teach him things that he'd learned. You know, I wanted him to feel like he was once in the SAS, did work for private military companies, did end up big becoming, um, uh, uh, uh, you know, private security for, you know, the upper echelons and then and and then obviously working for the Wayne Enterprises. But so so so I I wanted him grounded in being a soldier that had worked his way up into a position of

• 32:15Speaker 03

  being being, uh, you know, so he could, so there were lit- physical skills he could teach or or some skills he could teach to to to to to to to young Bruce, but not emotional skills.

• 32:27Josh Horowitz?

  Right. The, um, well, thank goodness for that because we don't want a well-adjusted Bruce Wayne.

• 32:32Speaker 03

  No, no, absolutely.

• 32:34Josh Horowitz?

  Um, the only thing under lock and key more than Hunt for Gollum is the script for Batman Part Two. So again, I don't expect you to tell me anything, but I have I talked to Colin after he read it and he couldn't have been more excited by the script.

• 32:43Speaker 03

  Amazing. It's a great script and it it it really is. And I I again, I'm not going to say anything whatsoever about it. And and actually, the the great thing is I'm going to be able to do it because because it's sort of because.

• 32:55Josh Horowitz?

  Figured it out, how to.

• 32:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, we figured the schedule out, you know, so so because it's going to be tight, you know, but it's, uh, you know, but we'll we'll get.

• 33:03Josh Horowitz?

  But I mean, what I've heard, Panason's said it's a huge swing, that it's deep, it's dark, it's emotional.

• 33:10Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 33:10Josh Horowitz?

  These are the adjectives. What are what are your adjectives that you?

• 33:12Speaker 03

  I I I would I would concur. With all of those, yeah, no, no, definitely.

• 33:18Josh Horowitz?

  Um, we haven't even mentioned Ulysses Quah, Gone, but not Forgotten.

• 33:22Speaker 03

  No, why does everybody wanna get rid of the characters that are created so early? And I love the fact, I was, I was looking, I was just flicking through some stuff the other day, actually, because I'll tell you what I am doing and have been doing this year. I was asked to write a memoir and um, I was like, I don't wanna write a memoir, I've got so many things I wanna do with my life, you know? It takes a long time to do and I'm not gonna draw back through my own life, it's boring, that's the reason why I play all these characters, you know, so, so, so.

• 33:50Josh Horowitz?

  So are you gonna do it, or are you actually?

• 33:52Speaker 03

  Well, in actual, this was two years ago, in actual fact, I've completed a memoir and I've just completed, I've just completed recording the audiobook of my memoir, so.

• 34:03Josh Horowitz?

  I'll catch you at a good moment, you're in your own head.

• 34:05Speaker 03

  It's coming out, yeah, and that's coming out towards the end of this year, so, so, so I'd love to talk to you about that.

• 34:12Josh Horowitz?

  Of course.

• 34:13Speaker 03

  Further at that, at that point, um, when I'm, when I'm passing back through, because it was a, it's a really interesting kinda journey going back over your own life and, and, and.

• 34:22Josh Horowitz?

  You've lived so many lives, like, I mean.

• 34:24Speaker 03

  That's the thing, that's the thing.

• 34:26Josh Horowitz?

  Even, and we haven't even, and like, maybe we'll talk later this year, like, your whole life before Lord of the Rings is a whole life, like, and then you reinvent and you reinvent as a filmmaker, it's.

• 34:35Speaker 03

  It's really weird going back over your own life, you know, and, and especially if you're an actor, because like you say, it's multiple lives and I've always believed that, you know, you, you're the kind of the summation of all of the things that you've done and chemically you change yourself uh, in, for a role, you know, you, or psychologically, emotionally, physically, you know, you've, you've tricked your body and mind into being someone else, so you can't, you can't get rid of those things completely, there's always dregs and remnants of, of all of those characters.

• 35:05Josh Horowitz?

  Stuff in there.

• 35:05Speaker 03

  There is, you don't wanna know.

• 35:07Josh Horowitz?

  Little Snoke, a little Ulysses Quah, I don't wanna know, um, we talked a bit about Lord of the Rings, but I do wanna say, like, I mean, there's so many iconic scenes and I, I referenced earlier, I'm always fascinated by that Two Towers, that sequence between your two characters, obviously, Sméagol and Gollum. Can you just talk me through a little bit of what that was like for you? To film and how you're code switching, how you're like, you have to change voice and posture between, they're essentially two. They are two different characters, you I would imagine, yes, you consider them that.

• 35:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, they're alters, definitely, you know, it's a sort of dissociative disorder, you know, it's kind of like it's. And and one is there to cope for the other. So.

• 35:44Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 35:44Speaker 03

  So, I mean, we, well, this, this, this evolved out of lots of discussion with, with Fran and and Filippo, you know, the writers and. And and Peter, obviously, but it, because early on, the script was, it was very, you know, it, it, they wasn't defined, but we, so we had to. Really, really essentialize what it was that that they they represented. And so Sméagol became this sort of younger, brutalized.

• 36:14Speaker 03

  Younger brother to Gollum, who, who was, who was, who'd been shoved away into a box. Um, you know, that he'd been sort of othered and he'd been disliked and.

• 36:25Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 36:25Speaker 03

  Uh, and and actually. And and Gollum was the survivor. Gollum was the tough, brutal, we're gonna get through this, we gotta get the pressures, we gotta get, you know, we gotta, you know, we gotta get the ring. Um, and and Smi- and Sméagol was actually the softer, sweeter, really kind of. Brutalized, younger version, but then, but then that, so, so that's where it was in The Two Towers and that's, that's, that, that part of him. Emerges because of his burgeoning relationship with, with Frodo, and Frodo brings that out of him. Um, of course, in, of course, in the, the evolution of that.

• 37:03Speaker 03

  And and so, well, anyway, let me just talk about that. So, so when we worked on that scene and that, that scene, when we were doing principal photography, that scene didn't exist, that wasn't in the script originally, that evolved out of. You know, a year of discussion.

• 37:16Josh Horowitz?

  That's when you went back for the additional photography.

• 37:17Speaker 03

  We went back for additional photography and, and we sat around and we, we, you know, there were seven pages of script, that scene. That, that we, but for, well, Fran and Phil particularly wrote and.

• 37:30Speaker 03

  You know, we shot it on the mocap stage first. And then, after we shot it on the mocap stage and where you're not worried about camera angles, you're you're just playing the whole thing. I was just playing them back and forth. And then on when we came to shoot, then we shot it on the set. I think it was the next day practically. And and then Peter was very carefully choosing where it where it merges from, you know, from from being one from one into two characters, almost having an argument with each other. And it was it was, you know, it was the most incredible scene to to to to play and to work on. And, you know, my one of my favorite scenes in the film because it it really, you know, you suddenly become, and I'll never forget the first night,

• 38:15Speaker 03

  seeing it with an audience, actually, and seeing their response to it and seeing everybody lean forward and kind of go, what is this? We're watching this. This feels incredibly real, this character, but it can't be real because it's a CG, you know. So it was, you know, it was.

• 38:30Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Have you at this point eliminated the word precious from your day to day? Like, can you say that without like?

• 38:36Speaker 03

  No, no, I can't say that. I mean, I can't say that word without, you know. But also mostly nearly every day, I bump I'll bump into someone who you asked me to do Gollum.

• 38:47Josh Horowitz?

  Well, they probably either ask you or they want to do it for you.

• 38:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, or do it for me. I've heard some amazing, amazing Gollums and Smegles.

• 38:55Josh Horowitz?

  So you encourage that. You'd prefer that probably than to be asked to do it.

• 38:59Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 38:59Josh Horowitz?

  So if you see Andy out in the wild, totally fine to demonstrate your Gollum, maybe give him a pass on asking for my precious, right?

• 39:06Speaker 03

  A hundred percent.

• 39:08Josh Horowitz?

  Where are you at? I mean, in terms of performance capture and award stuff, this was a big dialogue back in in the days of War of the Rings. I think, as I recall, you were not an advocate of like, you didn't want a separate category. Is that sort of where you're at still? And do you feel like we're getting closer to? Seems crazy with Avatar and Thanos and all these amazing performance capture your work that we still haven't seen any recognition in the major categories.

• 39:32Speaker 03

  It's it's strange that, you know, there was, you know, there was, there were difficult discussions early on because that. One couldn't, in order to, look, to do explain performance capture to people in those days, twenty five years ago, before Snapchat filters and before people could understand that, you know, they can, they can make a sound and it can come out of another character's vo-, you know, which everyone can do now.

• 39:55Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 39:56Speaker 03

  Do you know what I mean?

• 39:56Josh Horowitz?

  That's so true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That everyone could do a version of their own performance capture in a way.

• 40:00Speaker 03

  You can, you can, you know, um, but back in the day, it was like trying to explain dots on faces, infrared cameras, capture, you know, triangulating each point and all of that, and then retargeting that to an avatar character. It was very, very, it was like, you know, trying to explain that process and say, but at, at its core, it is just acting. And if I was playing Gollum in a loincloth and no clothes, you know, and, and, and, you know, makeup, which I did for some of it.

• 40:30Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 40:31Speaker 03

  You know, in The Return of the King, when you see that.

• 40:33Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 40:34Speaker 03

  That, that it's acting is acting and that's, so it doesn't, I wouldn't approach it any differently just because I'm wearing a motion capture suit. Like, I didn't, if I was playing Caesar and I was wearing a full ape, you know, kind of ape skin.

• 40:46Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 40:47Speaker 03

  I wouldn't have played him any differently. It's the, the choices that you make as an actor from page one to a hundred and twenty of the script and working out the arc and the scenes and the beats and the, and the relationships and then, and then the interactivity with all your other fellow actors. That isn't any different. So I've never drawn a distinction between, um, and, and, and then, then I got myself into a lot of trouble talking about it as if it was digital makeup and that, of course, you know, was, was not the right way of saying it because that was doing disservice to the animators. The animators have to retarget your performance onto the physi- physiognomy of something that is different to your own face. So it's, it's, it's not.

• 41:27Josh Horowitz?

  There is an art to that. There is a collaboration.

• 41:28Speaker 03

  Of course, yeah. And, and also that it is down, it's sort of director's choice in a way as to, as to how far or near you want it to the actors authored original performance. Because you can, for instance, Matt Reeves as a director, it's like, I, he was like, there was no question. I wanna see Andy.

• 41:48Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, he didn't want. Enhancements. He didn't want like build out. It just showed me that.

• 41:52Speaker 03

  I don't, I don't want you to make his teeth bare more than, but you know, you know, there is retargeting to the ape's face, but I, if, if I'm not seeing the same performance I got in the monitor. That I have in front of me that I've cut my film with of Andy doing what he's doing. If I don't see that, then it's not, you know, I don't want it. Whereas, whereas a character like say Captain Haddock in Tintin, which was slightly more, there was more leeway and Stephen would want a kind of slightly more exaggerated. Facial expression derived from.

• 42:21Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Well, it makes sense for the medium for the kind of film it is like.

• 42:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:25Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 42:25Speaker 03

  So it is, it is director's choice and you can, you know, even myself is directing Mowgli and we had, you know, an incredible cast playing all those. Characters, the animal characters, but we had to retarget Benedict Cumberbatch's face on, you know, to, onto, onto a tiger, you know? So it was in the, the design of the character where, where, you know, on the spectrum, you've got Benedict over here at one end. And then you've got the tiger, the other end and somewhere along that you see both Benedict and the tiger. And then, and then it's just, well, how wide does his mouth open? Well, it's not exactly how, you know, cause it can open wider than Benedict could, for instance, but. Do you know what I mean? So there are augmentations, but the performance is the performance and it's not.

• 43:06Speaker 03

  It's not derived by, it's not authored by multiple animators. It's derived from an actor.

• 43:13Josh Horowitz?

  I was thinking, you know, I, I rattled off the insane number of iconic performances, franchises you've been a part of. The one that's eluded you. I know you mentioned Star Trek and I'm a Star Trek fan too. It would be amazing to see you in Star Trek, but here's the one, here's the role, here's the franchise. I just had this epiphany this morning. Andy, Harry Potter, they're looking for Voldemort. You're welcome.

• 43:34Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 43:34Josh Horowitz?

  Are you in?

• 43:35Speaker 03

  Definitely. I mean, yeah, I'm just waiting for the call. Basically that's a, that's a cool one. Mind you, Rafe's. He's got big boots to follow, you know?

• 43:44Josh Horowitz?

  Would that, I mean, can you give me a menacing Harry Potter? What would your take be?

• 43:50Speaker 03

  Wow. No, I'd have to, I'd have to think seriously about.

• 43:52Josh Horowitz?

  You don't want to ruin your audition right now.

• 43:53Speaker 03

  No, I'm not gonna do it right now. No, no, no, no, no, no. They'll have to come calling.

• 43:58Josh Horowitz?

  But you're willing to sacrifice the nose for your arts. You're willing to.

• 44:02Speaker 03

  Oh yeah. No, I'd chop my nose off. Yeah. Very happy to do that, of course.

• 44:08Josh Horowitz?

  All right, full circle as we wrap this up. Um, feeling good, feeling satisfied. It's been a long journey. You had your big premiere last night. Uh, exhale as you about to enter another big adventure.

• 44:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:19Josh Horowitz?

  How are you feeling?

• 44:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, I, I know, I feel, I feel, it really is actually a massive turning point, you know, getting this, this film out finally. So thrilled. And also I have to say that, you know, the, the, the company that we're, that are distributing our movie, Angel are incredible. And they are, their business model is fantastic and it's a very, it's, you know, where you know cinema is in a very strange place at the moment. We all know it is, you know, people are not going to the cinema because they can see things, you know, the same thing streaming two weeks after it's gone in into the theaters. So, so this, this, the, this distribution, um, guild, if you like.

• 45:02Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 45:02Speaker 03

  Which has two, two million followers have been incredibly right and bespoke for Animal Farm. And they're, they're doing an incredible, really fantastic job in, in taking this film out to the theaters.

• 45:15Josh Horowitz?

  Excellent, excellent. All right, we're, and I just a minute left. I know you have to run the profoundly random questionnaire for you, Andy. Dogs or cats?

• 45:23Speaker 03

  Oh, cats.

• 45:24Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. What do you collect, if anything?

• 45:27Speaker 03

  Cameras.

• 45:29Josh Horowitz?

  Hence the collection. Favorite video game of all time?

• 45:33Speaker 03

  Um, I like Silent Hill.

• 45:35Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, all right. Uh, the Dakota Johnson memorial question. She asked me, I ask everybody, would you rather have a mouthful of bees or one bee in your butt?

• 45:44Speaker 03

  Um, I've had one bee in my butt and then I got an anaphylactic shocker, which wasn't great and I nearly passed.

• 45:51Josh Horowitz?

  So you're going with the mouthful, going forward.

• 45:53Speaker 03

  I'll have a mouthful of them, my man.

• 45:54Josh Horowitz?

  It happens, seriously?

• 45:56Speaker 03

  I did when I'd just come down from going to Everest base camp on a trek and it was just like, you know, all the things that could have happened on that. And I was lying down by the swimming pool. I lay over on a bee. I had welts running down my legs. I just could, I don't, I don't, it was hard finding it hard to breathe.

• 46:11Josh Horowitz?

  Oh my God, I'm glad I can laugh because you're still here. Oh my God. Wallpaper on your phone?

• 46:17Speaker 03

  Um, is, is, is actually of a mountain, uh, cause I'm a big mountaineer and uh, it's a fictitious mountain, which is going to be the subject of a film that I most want to make.

• 46:28Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing. Okay. Last actor you were mistaken for?

• 46:31Speaker 03

  Uh, Michael Sheen by, uh, but then this is true. Uh, I got off a plane in LA. Kate Beckinsale, he was married to at the time, many years ago, um, their daughter came running up to me saying, Dad.

• 46:44Josh Horowitz?

  No.

• 46:44Speaker 03

  I swear.

• 46:47Speaker 03

  And Michael and I do laugh over this.

• 46:49Josh Horowitz?

  And lastly, the worst noted director has ever given you, Andy.

• 46:53Speaker 03

  Um.

• 46:58Speaker 03

  The worst note, uh, can you, I'm just trying to think. You, we, no, you've done everything for me. Just do one for yourself.

• 47:07Josh Horowitz?

  It's kind of like dismiss like, just like, yeah, you can have your, your take now, I suppose.

• 47:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 47:12Josh Horowitz?

  Amazing. Uh, it's always good to catch up. I'm glad to hear about the memoir because this is going to be a good excuse to really go down memory lane next time.

• 47:19Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 47:20Josh Horowitz?

  Um, yeah. Yeah, I can't imagine what that experience has been. Congratulations, Animal Farm. You did it. You made it. It's out there for kids and adults alike. Everybody check it out. Support Andy. Um, thanks, buddy. Thanks as always. Appreciate you.

• 47:32Speaker 03

  It's great to see you.

• 47:35Speaker 04

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley and I definitely wasn't supposed to do this by Josh.

• 47:54Speaker 07

  Hey, first time? Love those sneakers.

• 47:58Speaker 05

  Thanks. Depop. Got them cheap.

• 48:01Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah? Okay, downloading.

• 48:03Speaker 05

  There's loads on there.

• 48:06Speaker 07

  Wow. Wish I'd had this last week. I just paid full price for mine.

• 48:10Speaker 05

  Oh, right?

• 48:12Speaker 07

  And you can't get these ones anywhere. Find what you want for less on Depop.

• 48:17Speaker 05

  Oh, sneakers worn once. Excellent condition.