Dr. Ramani Durvasula ON: How To Cope With Feelings Of Uncertainty & Grief During A Pandemic

You can order my new book 8 RULES OF LOVE at 8rulesoflove.com or at a retail store near you. You can also get the chance to see me live on my first ever world tour. This is a 90 minute interactive show where I will take you on a journey of finding, keeping and even letting go of love. Head to jayshettytour.com and find out if I'll be in a city near you. Thank you so much for all your support - I hope to see you soon. Times of crisis affect everyone, no matter their status or expertise. Professor and psychologist Dr. Rumani Duvasula recently sat down with Jay Shetty and shared how her profession has equipped her with skills to not only survive but thrive during times of pain and uncertainty. Listen in as Dr. Rumani shares the secrets she believes will empower people to be honest with themselves about their situations and do their best to get through this well. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jay Shetty?

  This episode is brought to you by AG1. Are you feeling September reset too? Shorter days, longer to-do lists, earlier alarms, all those routines you promised yourself you'd pick back up. It can feel like your whole life is recalibrating. And when everything around you is changing, it helps to have a few things you can rely on. AG1 Next Gen is one of those easy habits to keep. It's the clinically-backed, comprehensive daily health drink that supports your gut health, energy production, and foundational nutrition all in one scoop. AG1's ingredients are sourced from quality partners for absorption, potency, and nutrient density to deliver the foundational nutrition your body needs. And alongside a proper diet,

• 0:44Jay Shetty?

  AG1 Next Gen meets 94% of nutrient requirements and it's clinically shown to enrich the gut microbiome. For a limited time, save 20% on your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro at drinkag1.com/onpurpose. That's drinkag1.com/onpurpose. This episode is brought to you by Vinted. Value can be found anywhere, even in the clothes sitting untouched in our closets. That's where Vinted comes in. Vinted is a secondhand marketplace app where you can sell clothes you no longer want and get more value out of them. Whether you're running out of space, moving, or simply updating your wardrobe. Listing items is a quick and simple process, and once something sells,

• 1:30Jay Shetty?

  Vinted creates a prepaid shipping label for you. And the best part, there are no seller fees, so you keep what you earn. It's a simple way to clear out your closet, be less wasteful, and maybe make some extra money along the way. And if you've been thinking about a wardrobe refresh, this can make it feel a little more worthwhile. You're not just letting go of clothes, you're getting more value from what you already have. Give your clothes a second life with Vinted. Download the Vinted app for free to start selling with no seller fees, so you keep every dollar you earn. This episode is brought to you by AG1. Are you feeling September reset too? Shorter days, longer to-do lists, earlier alarms, all those routines you promised yourself you'd pick back up. It can feel like your whole life is recalibrating.

• 2:16Jay Shetty?

  And when everything around you is changing, it helps to have a few things you can rely on. AG1 Next Gen is one of those easy habits to keep. It's the clinically backed, comprehensive daily health drink that supports your gut health, energy production, and foundational nutrition all in one scoop. AG1's ingredients are sourced from quality partners for absorption, potency, and nutrient density to deliver the foundational nutrition your body needs. And alongside a proper diet, AG1 Next Gen meets 94% of nutrient requirements and is clinically shown to enrich the gut microbiome. For a limited time, save 20% on your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1

• 2:59Jay Shetty?

  Pro at drinkag1.com/onpurpose. That's drinkag1.com/onpurpose.

• 3:09Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  One day down the road, you will be teaching med students or nursing students and you will share with them the journals of when you were on the front lines of this pandemic. And your future healthcare professionals are going to say, wow, you were there. We are here. These journals are a gift to a future that we're not even going to be in anymore. But I really feel like all these digital journals are going to be remarkable, so keep them.

• 3:38Jay Shetty?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose. I am so grateful that you're here every single week to listen, to learn, and to grow. And I am so excited to be talking to you today. I can't believe it. My new book, Eight Rules of Love, is out and I cannot wait to share it with you. I am so, so excited for you to read this book, for you to listen to this book. I read the audiobook. If you haven't got it already, make sure you go to eightrulesoflove.com. It's dedicated to anyone who's trying to find, keep, or let go of love. So if you've got friends that are dating, broken up, or struggling with love, make sure you grab this book.

• 4:20Jay Shetty?

  And I'd love to invite you to come and see me for my global tour, Love Rules. Go to jayshettytour.com to learn more information about tickets, VIP experiences, and more. I can't wait to see you this year. And I want to give a special thanks to each and every one of you that are listening right now, because I know right now, there's a lot of anxiety, there's a lot of fear, and it's so easy at these times to To fall into our bad habits, to go backwards in our lives. And hey, that's okay too. But if you're turning up every single week and you're committing to be here and grow, I promise you that the skills, the techniques and the approaches that you will learn on this podcast

• 5:03Jay Shetty?

  through our incredible guests will help you navigate the noise that you experience throughout your day. If you're here every single week, and I know some of you are listening every single day to an episode, I promise you that that moment of calm, that moment of relaxation, that moment of insight will help you deal with the challenges that are in front of you. Now, today's guest is extremely qualified in supporting and helping us navigate through this troublesome time for each and every one of us. As you all know, her name is Dr. Ramani, and I met her recently, or had the good fortune of meeting her literally a few weeks back at the Red Table.

• 5:46Jay Shetty?

  Both of us were on this episode of Red Table Talk, which if you haven't seen, I highly recommend it, with our dear and mutual friend, Jada Pinkett Smith, Willow and Adrian. It was a really powerful conversation, and I took away not only so much insight, but so much deep appreciation for Dr. Ramani. She has an incredible wealth of wisdom and depth of insight, and she is so practical. So I promise you, if you take out the next forty-five minutes with us of your day, it will give you so much to help navigate the rest of your days. Dr. Ramani is a licensed clinical psychologist in L.A. and a professor of psychology at California State University.

• 6:31Jay Shetty?

  She takes on our modern challenges of entitlement in Don't You Know Who I Am? How to Stay Sane in the Era of Narcissism and Entitlement? And she's the author of You Are Why You Eat: Change Your Food Attitude, Change Your Life. Dr. Ramani, let's welcome her with a very happy, joyous and powerful, on-purpose welcome. Dr. Ramani, thank you for joining me.

• 6:56Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Jay, thank you so much for having me. I mean, it is a, it was such a pleasure. I'm glad we had one last moment before the world locked down that we got to meet in person. And I look forward to it again, but for now, I'm just happy to hear your voice. So, thank you.

• 7:08Jay Shetty?

  Absolutely. And I can't wait to have you on the show in the flesh, face to face, when all of this is over as well. So, I very much look forward to that. You're very welcome on the show. Like I said, and I'm grateful too. It was literally a day before everything locked down that we got to meet.

• 7:26Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Literally, yes.

• 7:27Jay Shetty?

  Definitely something special there. And I'm really excited for my community and audience to connect with you today and your ideas. And I think the best place to start is I'd love to hear about the multiple challenges you've been experiencing at this time. Because I think that people find that teachers, doctors, leaders, thinkers, therapists, psychiatrists, psychologists. We often have this view that they don't go through the same things we do. And it's a very limiting view. And obviously, we know it's untrue. I was sharing with you earlier that, you know, I've lost two people in my extended community. And granted, I didn't have a direct connection with them,

• 8:10Jay Shetty?

  but a lot of my friends and family have been affected by their loss. So, I'm dealing with loss through them. I also have around 20 to 25 friends in England who've all had mild to severe symptoms of COVID-19. Granted, they've not been tested, but some of them have had some really severe symptoms. So, tell us about what you've been experiencing at this time on a personal level before we look into some of your great insight and advice.

• 8:37Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Well, you know, thank you. Thank you so much, first of all, for asking. And I am so sorry for your loss in your community. And it's just a wake-up call that everyone's being affected so differently. So, I hope the people in your world are going to recover quickly. And, you know, and just be able to come back to being fully healthy when this is over. On my, on my side, Jay, it's, it's, it's mixed, you know, in the sense of, and I intimated this when we were on Red Table Talk. It's probably the hardest element of all of this for me. My my parents live on the east coast. And I had actually gone, my mom has a health problem and it's a degenerative health problem. And so we were all ready to go ahead, have her get a surgery at the end of March, early April. And because it's a degenerative condition, it's just going to keep getting worse.

• 9:23Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  But it wasn't considered emergent yet. And so the whole plan, I mean, we all had our plans at the beginning of March, right? I was gonna go, I was gonna do my work remotely. I was gonna go out to the east coast and fly back and forth for the six months she recovered and on and on and on. And then boom, this happened. And so now my mother continues to have this degenerative condition. And we're having every day to consider new ways of thinking about making decisions. Ultimately, if she does get that surgery in the next two months, which she may need to get. Where once we thought we'd be able to sit at her bedside and be a support and talk to her and read to her and be present to her. She's gonna have to go through this alone. And so I think that it's my daily contact with her mercifully. She's she's tough as nails and she really is a wonderful attitude about this. But I can sense her fear.

• 10:08Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And so I think that her story brings to light what many families are going out are going through around the out out there, which is. This is the health crisis isn't just about coronavirus. It's about people who have other health issues, cancer, cardiac issues, the need for other kinds of surgeries. Something like my mom's condition, which is just teetering on whether or not it's going to become an emergency in the next few weeks or not. So just say if there's one thing that keeps me up at night, it's being concerned about her. I got, you know, I've got two daughters and I, you know, I feel for my older daughters at college and she had to come home. And while that's the story of every single college student in on the planet, every single one of them is struggling. Like, what is, is this sort of a a dream halted? And so they're kind of getting back into that. My other daughter in high school had all the fun things you have in high school, the things you're gonna do.

• 10:52Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And again, while this is sort of like they're gonna have to adjust, and this is a great place for them to learn resilience. You do see the grief that they go through and they're bored to death and, you know, and and try helping them kind of through the boredom. And I'm working quite a bit. And so I think it's a lot of these issues, being far away, not being able to fix things, worried about my mother. But also so worried about many of my clients who still have the issues that they've always had, Jay. And so people who had existing anxiety, this has really multiplied that anxiety. People who had existing relationship problems, they're probably in many ways worse than ever. So I'm seeing those struggles, but obviously some of the clients I work with are healthcare professionals, so they live in anxiety about their health. Some of my clients have gotten

• 11:36Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  the virus and so their anxiety is for their own health and mortality. So it really is, it's opening up so many different things and I'm just trying to get up each day and kind of be the best Romney I can be for everyone I'm I'm there for. So it's it's a lot. It's a lot. So that those are a lot of the things I go through. And then and my some of my own hopes and aspirations, Jay, I'll be frankly, selfishly, I had really spent several years building something up and we had launched it and were ready to go and then it all got dismantled. And so there's grief and I had that's the only word I can use is that everyone's grieving. That was my grief and and I allowed myself to grieve instead of saying, no, everyone has it worse and many people have it much, much worse. This was my loss. And so I grieved that loss and now it's acceptance and figuring

• 12:21Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  out how to how can we find the jewels in the ashes?

• 12:25Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely. And that's why I want to thank you and first of all, send love to your family and your way. And also just thank you for still showing up in the world despite having so much to navigate in your own personal life. I mean, how do you how do you deal with that part first? Like when you're looking at what you're saying, you're you're spot on that, you know, the healthcare challenge right now is not just people suffering with COVID-19, it's actually people who had surgeries planned and they've been rescheduled or how do you how are you dealing with that? What is getting you through that challenge personally? And I know earlier before when we were speaking, you were talking about being more present and doing what you can in the day. What are the things that are

• 13:10Jay Shetty?

  helping you personally?

• 13:12Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I have to say that, you know, all the training, all the classes, all the reading I've ever done on mindfulness, what has happened in the last three weeks became a masterclass in in mindfulness, because you really had to recognize the absolute sense of powerlessness, which what we always had that powerlessness. You know, I was raised in a Hindu family where the sense of control and and even any sense of Material, anything, but certainly the sense of control is all an illusion. And while I was raised on that philosophically, I don't think I embraced it until the last few weeks. And so it is very much about what can I do in each moment? How can I be present with a client? How can I be present with my child?

• 13:55Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  How can I be present on a conversation with my mother? And you know, the one thing we do know, for example, any of us sort of feeling anxious and very common in anxious people is like, it's like a concept of sort of like fortune telling, like looking into the future. It's always going to be like this and nothing's ever going to get better. And my mom is going to die and all of that. And that's very much a symptom and a pattern we see in anxiety. And now I'm catching myself. My mom is here today. My daughter is making breakfast. The cat is walking up the stairs. Like it has literally shifted it for me. Something I really hope and pray remains permanent and for me to really hold on to the illusion of control we ever had in the first place. And recognizing that I can be gracefully present in every moment. And instead of sobbing and moaning and wailing,

• 14:41Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  mother checking in, did she get the cookies I delivered her? You know, did she, what is she doing right now? How is the weather? And we're able to stay in those moments. And so that has been a wake up call for me. So this thing I preached to clients for 20 years, now I'm living 24/7 and it has been a game changer for me. Because I'm thinking, okay, this is what I have in front of me. And I do my due diligence and I get up and I'm working on my taxes. Like I am focusing on the future, but it's a, um, but there's still very much a being in the moment. I, um, I feel like even though my kids probably wouldn't agree with it, I'm spending more time with them in ways that we never would have at this time. And so there's, there is some beauty that emerges from staying in these moments, even of things like, you know, things like loss of income. Those things I'm experiencing right now, I'm like, okay,

• 15:27Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  that's right now I'm able to, I'm able to pay this month's mortgage and we'll think about next month, next month.

• 15:34Jay Shetty?

  This episode is brought to you by Wayfair. Home should be a place that feels like a sanctuary, a space that truly reflects who you are. But it can be challenging to balance style, budget and endless options. I was looking to create a dedicated calm space for my morning meditation and reading, but I was struggling to find pieces that felt grounding but could also stand up to daily use. I went on Wayfair and found a beautiful, solid wood accent chair and a bookshelf. Now that corner is my favourite place to anchor my day. The quality is incredible, it's built to last, and it completely shifted the energy of the room. Plus, you can shop with Wayfair Verified, where product specialists carefully vet items for quality and functionality, so you can shop with more confidence. And if putting it all together sounds like a headache,

• 16:19Jay Shetty?

  Wayfair can handle delivery, installation and assembly. Join Wayfair Rewards today to get 5% back on every purchase and start saving on your next home upgrade. Head to wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W A Y F A I R dot com. Wayfair, every style, every home. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. We talk a lot about intentional decision-making, and that extends to the practical stuff too, like making sure your coverage actually works for your life. State Farm is there to meet you where you are, and they know how sweet it is to feel good about your decisions. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbour, State Farm is there.

• 17:03Jay Shetty?

  Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state, coverage options are selected by the customer, availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. If you're talking about quality food, you can't forget Whole Foods Market, who've been holding themselves to the highest standards since they opened in 1980. That means you'll see thousands of organic products across their stores, from the produce department to the aisles. It also means you'll never see certain ingredients. They've banned artificial sweeteners and colours, high fructose corn syrup and more, so you can shop with peace of mind. Shop Whole Foods Market in-store or online.

• 17:48Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it's really refreshing hearing you say that because like again, just as we think that leaders and healthcare professionals and thinkers and therapists don't have their own issues, we also think that people don't really sometimes use the skills that they talk about. And I think, you know, it's times like this that prove to us all that these skills really work and that we can continue to use these times to perfect those skills so that when they may be less needed, they're still as useful to us then as they are now. And so, thank you for sharing that so openly and vulnerably with us. And again, I'm sending lots of love and prayers to you and your family and hoping that anyone who's been

• 18:32Jay Shetty?

  affected in that way is also feeling supported and cared for. So let's, let's talk about how a lot of the things that you're helping your clients with, which I think will be a lot of our audience's challenges. What are the top three things you're being asked right now by the, by the people, the clients in your life or people in your lives that are going through challenges? What are the ones you're seeing as the biggest points of concern for people right now?

• 18:56Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Here, I'm going to start with an interesting one and I'm going to tell you and it's, it's going to catch you by surprise. It's guilt. And the guilt is people saying to me, you know what? I'm okay. Like, you know, we, I've got enough in savings. I've got to remember, Jay, anyone who's still coming to see me is still able to pay the bill, right? So that's almost a selection bias there. But even that said, like people who have other things going on, they're saying, you know what, I'm, I'm doing okay. Like so far, no one I know has been gotten sick or if they've gotten sick, it wasn't that severe. I have the people I need to take care of are near me. I'm actually able to do some of my job from home or I'm able to give some attention to my kids. So people are actually... See that they want to talk about things that aren't COVID-19.

• 19:41Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  They're like, can we actually talk about my marriage or my divorce? Or my, and it's very interesting because it's as though if you aren't talking about the catastrophe in the room, it's somehow some sort of massive betrayal. And so that has been fascinating to me. I'm saying, oh, no, your pain is always valid in the middle of a calamity or not. And so it is that giving voice that your feelings are your feelings. They're always valid. But in the day and age we're living in, Jay, it's a little bit hard for people who feel like, I can't take my problem to the world. You know, people, again, let's use the example of a high school student. It happens to not be affecting my daughter because she's younger, but like high school students who are losing, I don't know, their senior prom and their graduation.

• 20:24Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  It's not unusual for them to almost feel like they're shamed or something like for that. What are you worried about such a thing when the world is falling apart? And I feel my heart aches for them because that is their grief and it is very real. And now if somebody's silencing them, they're not only feeling the grief, but now they're feeling guilt and shame for actually trying to bring that feeling in. So, so number one is this sort of interesting, complex form of guilt, shame, you know, issues.

• 20:49Jay Shetty?

  You're so, so right about that. And, and I remember when we were speaking about this, we were talking about how, what ends up happening is that we feel guilty and then we reflect that guilt onto others and make them feel guilty of how they're dealing with it. Or we judge ourselves and then we're judging how others or people are dealing with it.

• 21:10Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yes.

• 21:10Jay Shetty?

  Reacting to it.

• 21:10Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yes.

• 21:11Jay Shetty?

  And so our judgment and guilt becomes everyone else's judgment and guilt. And like you said, that becomes really, makes us feel disconnected from everyone rather than connected to our pain.

• 21:22Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yes.

• 21:23Jay Shetty?

  Actually making our pain disconnect us.

• 21:25Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yes.

• 21:26Jay Shetty?

  And, and what I love about what you say, and, and what I've been really thinking about is that we shouldn't really belittle anyone's pain. We shouldn't really make anyone's grief feel, feel less than. And, and I think that sometimes that's a really hard concept to understand because people feel, well, you know, that kid missing their prom, that's different to someone losing someone who's suffering with COVID-19, for example.

• 21:54Jay Shetty?

  And the truth is, is different, but your point is that you should still allow that person to mourn their loss. I remember you saying that.

• 22:02Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yes, and it goes to sort of like that, that second point, which will build on this first point, which is grief, right?

• 22:10Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  So we're going back to that idea of not, you know, of people allowing themselves to feel what they feel, because I think we're all having this moment. And it's also, again, it's a two-way street, Jay. There's a, the part of the person who is upset because they lost, I don't know, there's an opportunity, or a vacation, or a prom, or wedding, or any of these things that were significant to them, that now they can't do, right? And so they're having their experience, and they sort of feel guilty or embarrassed that they're, they're grousing over this thing that may be seemingly small, when there's so much going wrong in the world. On the flip side of that, though,

• 22:49Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  that we may sometimes lose patience with people who are saying those things, right? And both of those sides of the equation, Jay, are human. And I really want people to sort of hold on to their humanness. So what may be going through your mind is, okay, so you're, you know, oh my gosh, I can't believe this person's still talking about whatever, is there a vacation or something like that? And you're getting frustrated. That's also very normal and human, especially if you're experiencing things like job loss, concerns about sick family members, or whatever is happening in your world, that's your world, that it's also okay to have that human reaction. So it's really where the mindfulness comes in, is that maybe catch yourself before you say something to them, like, why don't you just keep your mouth shut about your problems?

• 23:32Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Nobody cares. But maybe say, you know, I am, I'm so sorry this is happening. And then allow yourself maybe to step away from the situation, until maybe you can get your head around empathically, what might be happening for them. So this, what I'm saying is that this is so complex, because we may be grieving, we may be losing patience with other people, and all of it, all of it makes sense. And so I think we're all sort of collectively walking on some eggshells here, as we try to figure all of this out. And add to that, the insult to injury, that we're all quarantined and stuck inside with each other. So the breathers we once got by going to work, going to school, going to the gym, all of that's gone too. So people are just, all of this

• 24:13Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  stuff is colliding. And another place it's almost happening in a bit of a mean-spirited way that concerns me is Where people might actually share an agony or grief or despair they're having. And other people in that space may actually be shutting them down. Oh, do you really think we care about your stupid, I don't know, prom or party? When the world is falling apart? And I just put my head in my hands when I see that happen. I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, this isn't good. And so that's why I'm saying that this is such a complex space. But for my clients that I'm working one on one, it's really that guilt of is my problem really that big a deal? And the short answer to that is yes, it is.

• 24:49Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, that's, that's a really important point. And when everyone listening to take that, that whatever pain you're going through, whatever you're experiencing, give yourself the time to feel the loss. It may take you an hour, it may take you a day, whatever it is for you, dependent on the scale of the challenge that you're feeling and the perspective you have of it. Don't then enhance the pain by adding guilt and judgment to it.

• 25:15Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah.

• 25:15Jay Shetty?

  Because that's just increasing it and giving you more to have to heal later on.

• 25:19Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah.

• 25:20Jay Shetty?

  Great.

• 25:21Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And so that goes, quite the second thing I'm really seeing is, is a lot of grief. You know, it is opportunities lost, it's things taking a different direction. Is, am I going to be able to go back to school to this? What is my workplace going to look like? What have I lost? And everyone has lost something. None of our lives look the same as they did three weeks ago. And those losses are on a continuum. For some people, they're absolutely catastrophic losses. They've actually lost the lives of people they love and no longer in their life. And then, you know, also they've lost all the sources of income for their family. And then for others, it may be losses of opportunity, but all of that is grief. And we often only use the word grief, Jay, for death. You know, somebody dies and that's just one of the many losses we can experience.

• 26:03Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  But the grief reaction is very much a psychological cascade. We experience, we've been experiencing it since we've been human beings. It's just what we do. And it is a very real experience. And I think that people feel funny saying, well, grief, you don't have grief because you lost X or Y, that's not a living. Person you say, yeah, you do. And so it's giving people permission to go through the stages of grief and be very, very sort of gentle with themselves, which is what we would do. If somebody dear to us died, we would probably not work for a little while. We would probably sleep a bit more. We might a lot, give ourselves more time alone and more private space or time to talk to each other. The things we might do under the grief of the loss of a person, someone dying.

• 26:46Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And I think people almost feel like they should be doing so much and they, how dare they grieve? Nobody's dead. And I think by doing that, they're, they're cutting short a really important emotional experience of letting go.

• 27:01Jay Shetty?

  Absolutely, absolutely. I, I can agree with you more and I'm so glad that we're having this conversation because you're so right, that's, that's where the challenges come. Were there any more or were they the key ones?

• 27:13Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I would say then, you know, probably the third is everything that coalesces around this concept of anxiety, things like loss of control, how to cope with uncertainty, how to deal with your thoughts being distracted. And that all relates to a big piece, like a concrete piece of this is people are getting angry at themselves for not being productive enough. Like my whole house should be painted and cleaned and alphabetized. And I, I want to tell people that we're actually spending a lot of our mental bandwidth right now, getting our heads around this situation. So people might feel like, how did another 14 hour day pass and I still have dishes in the sink and I still haven't done all the things I thought I would do because I'm stuck at home. I'm trying to explain to them that there's a whole part of your brain right now that's

• 27:56Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  literally spending a lot of bandwidth, like saying, okay, exactly what's happening there. I mean, because our ability to estimate threat right now is a little bit off because in one hand, we're being told you can't leave your house, you've got to wear a mask, you've got to constantly wash your hands because there's a threat in the environment, something that can make us and the people we care about sick. And so our threat, our threat monitors are running higher. And when that happens, you almost need to think about your brain as like, like your house with the internet, like all these people are running devices. So the bandwidth is not as good, so things are taking longer. It's the same thing with your brain. We have less. Bandwidth. So we're getting more mentally and psychologically fatigued. We're not as efficient. And I think a lot of people are really being hard on themselves for not being productive.

• 28:41Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And I want to explain to them, you have this whole other thing your brain's doing right now that it wasn't doing a month ago. So be kinder, be kinder to yourself and self compassion is everything. But I'm noticing some of my clients getting frustrated, like I'm so lazy because I'm just staring out the window. And I'm thinking, actually, no, you're not staring out the window is actually the best thing they could be doing.

• 29:00Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely. And it's always that balance of, you know, it's knowing how much space to give yourself to to deal with something and then knowing you want to get going on something. You know, I've had a lot of friends, you know, I have a very organized morning routine that gives me a lot of certainty. It lets me ground in the day, then helps me get on with my day. And then as the day progresses, I allow myself to also uh let go a little and like making sure that I'm having game night or movie night with my friends, you know, virtually, I mean, or, you know, with my wife, etc. Trying to find ways to create more social experiences. But I feel like my mornings are very organized, very productive and effective.

• 29:44Jay Shetty?

  And then throughout and as the day goes, I allow myself, you know, I wouldn't usually be doing that every night of the week. But seeing as we're all indoors all the time, I'm not having a game night or a movie night or whatever it is that I want to do in the evenings, which allows me to have that social connection. What are some of, what are some of the things that you think people can do? Now that we've been in this space for about, for most people to be up to three to four weeks. What are some of the things now that we've had somewhat of an adjustment period? That you think people can start doing to help them feel like they're growing or moving forward? Or feeling like there's some sort of certainty at this time?

• 30:28Jay Shetty?

  Is there anything that people can do? Is that even the right thing to aim for?

• 30:31Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I think that yes, there is. I think you you just nailed it, which is routine. And you know, and routine can be things big and small. You know, I was working recently with a client who was literally trying to create a routine at home for her and her kids. Hour by hour, and she had these massive whiteboards all over her house. And what was happening though, she was getting very fretful. When that hour by hour by hour thing couldn't happen. You know what I'm saying? So like, oh, my goodness, we should already. It's almost like she was trying to make the whole school in the house. Like, we should be going to this class. Now we should be doing this. And I think that there's a danger in getting too overly scheduled, saying, oh, 10 a.m. I need to be doing this, 1 p.m. I need to be doing this. No. I think routine is something that is almost like a series of steps that you know that, especially on the front end of the day, that's critical.

• 31:16Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Now, that's going to be different for everyone. Some people, it's meditation. Some people might be taking a walk, might be their coffee, might be they read the newspaper or news on the, on the computer, whatever it is, that it's expectable and it's predictable and it's something that you, you sort of set something into place. Beyond that, I've been telling people, before you get too stuck on time, like at 10 a.m. I need to do this and 2 p.m. I need to do that. I do tell people, as you part of your routine today, set those three, maybe four things, three to five, as the five would say is a max, things that you want to get done today. And that could be fold the laundry, change the bed sheets, write the blog, get your papers graded, whatever it is, depending on what it is you do.

• 31:59Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Get your kid through, you know, talk about the book that your child's supposed to read for school. You've got those five things you, you want to get done. And frankly, as you get those ticked off, you might get them all done by noon and then give yourself the time and space. Other things may get explored at that point. So routine, to me, is really, really huge. And to all of us out there doing this work, it's routine, routine, routine. Number two is some form of activity. And whether that is taking a walk around the block, walking up and down, if you have even like a little strip of sidewalk in front of your house, if you have a treadmill and there's yoga videos, something, anything. I mean, it is amazing how many, even dance classes now online, if you have enough room in your living room, that you could just turn it on and then just follow the dance routines. Like, there's so much stuff out there.

• 32:44Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Move your body somehow. Get outside if you can. It's raining in Los Angeles today as we do this. But, you know, even if there's a momentary break, if you can get outside, that would be great. If you can't, definitely try and move your body. And number three is to distract Jay. I mean, and I would tell everyone out there, and it could be sort of fun. Make your list of ten, twenty, thirty. In fact, somebody, people in my field, we're circulating all these documents now to help our clients. Somebody sent me a list of seventy-four distractors, which are great. I'm circulating them.

• 33:15Speaker 02

  Can you tell us some of them?

• 33:16Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah, yeah. In fact, I have the list in front of me.

• 33:18Speaker 02

  Oh, great. Yeah, tell us some of your favorite ones.

• 33:21Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Because so many of them.

• 33:27Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  So let me give you some of the, because literally seventy-four things on this list are things like, you know,

• 33:35Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  watch a documentary. Color, like, you know, coloring, like a child would color a coloring book. Do a jigsaw puzzle. Find a new podcast to listen to, or keep listening to Jay's podcast. You know, go online and take a free drawing class. You know, make a list of all the birthdays of the people, you know, put them in your calendar, and those that are coming up, send them cards.

• 34:02Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Take on, like, if there's a wall in your house you want to paint, paint it. Watch TED Talks. Play a board game. Start a journal of your dreams, because we're all actually dreaming a bit more right now. Bake something, even if you just, you know, eat half of it.

• 34:19Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Find a pen pal. Start writing actual hard copy letters to somebody again. You know, I mean, it's like, listen to some new music you've never listened to before. Do the things you're saying, like, do Netflix online with friends and watch movies with them, and virtual game nights. So, I mean, it's on and on and on. It's things like this, that if you have a list of those things for you, I mean, for me, it's the silliest things. It's like, I'm trying to file ancient papers and get rid of them. But that's my little break, and I have a little room in my house that's got a TV in it, and so I'll go and watch a silly TV show. I'm also telling people, like, be judicious in what you watch. Like, some people are, first of all, cut out from the news. Like, give yourself your news time, like, maybe twice a day,

• 35:00Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  ten to twelve hours separated, like, a morning little news hit, an afternoon news hit, and then you're done. And watch something else, you know, comedies are great right now because the distraction. I'm, I'm watching a comedy that was set at a different time in history now, and it is beautiful to watch. The costumes and the settings that I get so lost in it that forty five minutes after now I've watched the show and the forty five minutes have gone. I'm like, wow, that was really an escape for me because it was just so. And everyone's close together, like they're always in these rooms and there's lots of people and there's something sort of nostalgic now of watching people in a room. So I think everyone's got to figure that out, and I think in some ways making it kind of fun. Because then you can figure out which one you're going to do because what you'll find is human beings really do reboot and they do reboot pretty well.

• 35:45Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And that's what we're talking about, severe paralyzing anxiety. That's a different conversation where I would actually say that that's a point where someone needs mental health. You know, kind of some sort of intervention. But what a lot of us are going through, it's just breaking out of it. Yesterday, my daughter was a great example. She got some really bad news having to relate to school and where she lives. And she was quite upset about it and there was absolutely nothing, Jay, nothing that could have been done at that moment. And you know what she said, she's like, you know what, I'm just going to jump in the car and I'm going to take a long drive, you know? And she did, and she did, and she came back better, you know? So it was in that moment she knew that was what worked for her. You know, my other daughter was so frustrated because I wouldn't spend time with her yesterday. And she found some strange little canvas where she made a painting of a llama.

• 36:30Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And it was a beautiful little painting she made and she even made a little video of herself doing it. So our kids are figuring it out, we're figuring it out, and then she seemed to be in better spirits after it was done. So we've got to distract. So that the routines, the distraction, movement, turning off the news and also social interaction. We have got to connect. You're doing it through your game nights, Jay, and your movie nights. You know, I'm doing it with the family in my house. I'm talking to friends, you can talk on the phone, you can talk via FaceTime or Skype or Zoom or whatever floats your boat. But stay in touch with people because it's really easy to kind of get your, let your head go into a dark alley. Some people are still having lots of meetings with people they work with, but you know, just make sure you keep having contact with people.

• 37:16Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  It, that's really critical. We're a social species and without that social contact, we don't do as well. Some of us do, I'm an introvert, so I have to tell you, this isn't that hard for me. But I still miss people and I feel happy that those people I can pick up the phone and call.

• 37:28Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely. These are such great tips and I love the fact that distraction is being recommended because I think you end up distracted right now. I think there's a big fear around, "Oh my God, I get too distracted." And it's like, well, you know, none of us have ever been through this before. It's not like someone had a plan up their sleeve of how to deal with this. And you can't expect yourself to have that. I know for me, some of the things that I like to do to distract myself and I recommend to people is I've been reorganizing my bookshelf and I discovered three or four books that I've never seen. I can't even remember if I bought them and gifted them, and they've been such great books. And I'll just tell people the titles

• 38:09Jay Shetty?

  just because they're good. One's called The Book of Questions. It's literally just got

• 38:14Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  It's really good.

• 38:15Jay Shetty?

  290 reflection questions, which are really interesting. I will just flick through one and read one right now. I'd love to hear your take on it. Let's see if some of these questions are useful or not. What could someone figure out about you by the friends you've chosen? And I would say read them with a light heart, not don't take them too seriously. And then there's another book that I got called Do One Thing Every Day That Centers You, and it's called A Mindfulness Journal. And it's just, these types of things are just a great way to distract. Another one that I love is making a photo gallery of looking

• 38:54Jay Shetty?

  through all the 67,328 pictures you have in your photo gallery on your phone, and reorganizing them into folders, and reorganizing them into memories, and sending them to your family that you miss, and, you know, watching a slideshow together and having like a reveal party or a premiere of it together like across the world. Like, I think getting creative right now as a distraction is such a fun thing to do, and not feeling like it has to be achievement based, but it can be relationship.

• 39:26Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I love that because also it's in and it is again, there's a lot of spontaneous moments coming up. I off it's out again, same thing. My daughter found an old box of photos. And for forty five minutes, she'd hold up a picture, especially ones of her infancy or her sister's infancy. And tell me about this time and it led to conversation. I know we never would have made the time to have that box would have stayed buried. So all of these things that foster connection, that foster mental activity. I'm a huge fan of reading right now, or maybe listening to audiobooks. But I love the idea of reading because it really does. It allows your mind to wander, especially fiction. I am, I love fiction and I don't make enough time for it and I'm reading a book now. And you get lost in trying to create the imagery in your mind and all of that.

• 40:10Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  So I do think that those distractions are out there. I do understand many people feel very paralyzed in the face of all of this because I, you know, and the anxiety is overwhelming. And I also know like one of the biggest struggles is for people who are trying to balance both working at home and managing children, and especially smaller children who do need to be supervised. And I know there's a fair amount of fatigue there. So I'm also telling people, just be kind to yourself. You know, like sometimes all these ones be in the same silly room as you. And it may be you're watching their TV show, but you've got a book on your lap or something like that. So it's there. There's a lot of interesting opportunities for here for how we, you know, consider our, our human relationships. But again, I am acknowledging that even as I say all of this, it's not going to work for everyone. I don't know that there's one magical strategy that's working for everyone.

• 40:55Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And one thing you brought up, Jay, on Red Table Talk, when we were talking to Adrian, you'd brought up the idea of journaling. And I actually thought about that a lot after you made that comment. And it's interesting because I'm, I'm really making the suggestion, I always have, but I'm making it more strongly to people, this idea of journaling. And I'm saying to them, here's where the journaling is going to get interesting now. Imagine if you had the journals of like a grandparent or great grandparent from the Great Depression. All of us right now have the opportunity to write these things that whether they're our grandchildren or great grandchildren or other family members are going to open these one day and say, Oh, that would be incredible. This is our granny's journal from the coronavirus pandemic. And they, I mean, you have to think of this as a gift down the road because I know for me.

• 41:41Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  When I've had the opportunity in India, especially to talk to my own grandmother before she passed, hearing her stories and spoken in Zelago, in our native language, it honestly was one of the most profound experiences of my life to understand where it is I've come from as an Indian woman, how much of a shift there's been in the world, her stories, what she in essence had and didn't have, what I have as a result of that, it changed my perspective forever. It changed my level of meaning and purpose in a permanent way. These journals, in a way, that we keep now will be that pay it forward. And the group I started doing this with my clients were healthcare providers. I said, one day down the road, you will be teaching med students or nursing students, and you will share with

• 42:25Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  them the journals of when you were on the front lines of this pandemic. And the future healthcare professionals are going to say, wow, you were there. We are here. These journals are a gift to a future that we're not even going to be in anymore. But I really feel like all these digital journals are going to be remarkable. So keep them. Because even if it's just to sit one day with a potential grandchild or grandniece or someone, this will be the greatest gift you could ever give them.

• 42:50Speaker 03

  Running a small business means I wear lots of hats. When I put on my hiring hat, I can count on LinkedIn Hiring Pro to make it easy. LinkedIn Hiring Pro helps manage my hiring workflow, puts my job post in front of a unique network of professionals, and matches me with the best candidates for my business. I can also share my job with my network. No other job site lets me do that. No wonder most small businesses say they'd use LinkedIn Hiring Pro again. Hire right the first time. Post your job for free on LinkedIn today at LinkedIn.com/quality.

• 43:21Speaker 04

  College football is back. So Hilton called to me, the superstition concierge, to make your fan rituals a reality. Need a room to match your lucky number? We got you. Want to make sure our team doesn't wash your lucky jersey? Oh, that smells lucky. Hilton's unmatched hospitality can keep up with any superstition. Even a marching band wake-up call at 5:55 in 55 seconds. Hit it! When you need a team that will do whatever it takes on game day, it matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay.

• 43:51Speaker 05

  This episode is brought to you by PayPal. You know how a mom's bag has everything? Sunscreen? Snacks? A stapler? The new PayPal app is like that, but for your money. Shop, pay, manage your account, and earn rewards, all in one place. And with purchase protection on eligible items, biometric security, and pass keys, you're protected at every step. Download the new PayPal app to get started. See paypal.com/protectionterms.

• 44:20Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I mean, that's just incredible. I love that. And it also lets us live with deeper meaning for how it will impact people in the future.

• 44:31Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yes, yes.

• 44:32Jay Shetty?

  And so I think there's so much greatness in that. I actually love that idea. One of the other things that I wanted to dive into more that you mentioned at the table as well is that you were talking a lot about how people right now may be struggling financially and economically can process that. And I thought that it's important to touch on that because a lot of people, including yourself, including me, I've had things that have been pushed back. I know plenty of people in my life who've had things that have been pushed back or couldn't launch or are delayed indefinitely. What do you say? And I'm not asking it from an entrepreneurial business mind, and I'm looking at it from

• 45:15Jay Shetty?

  the mind, a psychology question, like, how do you deal with specifically financial loss? And what are good ways to work through that right now?

• 45:24Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah, to me, Jay, the financial losses are some of the most profound here because they are, it's not just a loss of, I mean, real things, like material things, like I gotta pay the rent, I gotta keep the lights on, I gotta buy the food, but also it's a loss of identity. I mean, people's jobs are a big part of who they are. That identity of getting up in the morning and getting on the bus or getting in the car, however, walking, however it is you get to the office, that whole moment in the day, while it's sort of nice to work in your sweatpants from time to time, there's a loss of identity when you don't. So I think that what we've got to understand, this isn't just about not being able to pay the bills, though that's an enormous part of it. Part of it, it's also this sense of who am I? Like who, what do I, what am I about?

• 46:05Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Like, who do I even stand for if I'm not going to my job? And so I think that, you know, putting aside that the, the financial planning and the numerous resources that people are putting out there, how are you going to file, filing for unemployment? And paying your bills and how all that's going to work? I'm going to defer that to people and all the websites out there that are starting to handle that. But it is this sense of grief, loss, tremendous anxiety and uncertainty. That is actually what people are very much ruminating about. A lot of these other things also matter, even with things like the routine. What's been really interesting for me, Jay, is I've worked with numerous clients who started new jobs in the last three weeks.

• 46:46Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  It's like brand new job, like, you know, employee orientation online and people are hiring. You know, so it's like, there are these, you know, it, it's a strange time that we think it's all shutting down. But what is it like they said, what seventeen? Like such an enormous, like seventeen million or something like that, people have filed for unemployment. Something we've never seen before. But this is above and beyond the financial, it's the loss of identity. And, and even identity as being a provider or a person who does get, you know, model a work ethic and, you know, provides for family and does all that. Losing some of those identities and the fears around that as well. I think a lot of it is to know you're not alone. I think when people go through this many times, they are alone. They're the one person who's lost a job and their friends have kept theirs.

• 47:28Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  That there's a large group of people for whom this is happening. And the uncertainty and the fear and the grief is normal. It's also catching yourself against it, bringing it back to the present. And worrying about it is not going to put more money in your pocket. But what are the things you can be doing now in terms of applying for new jobs? Or how do you have to reconfigure your family's finances? And also, how can you distract? How can you create other things you do during the day? That help you feel like you're being what we call getting stuff done. But it is, this is the grief around the money. I'm going to be frank with you, it's going to be more than a grief. And the money, career, safety, financial safety, all of that is probably going to be greater than the grief around this whole pandemic and the illness part of it.

• 48:12Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Because that's life, that's the stuff of life. And it's for some people, it's businesses they've tried to build over years. And or have built over years and now are not launching. So it's a, um, it's a, that's a collective trauma and a collective grief. There's some comfort in it, but it's also very, very heavy and there's no quick fix on that. Then, then again, a lot of the stuff we talked about, routine, distraction, staying in the moment, um, you know, and then for some people, this is going to end up being Jay, a real reinvention. Like, how, how can I be doing me differently? Can I do what I do in a very different way?

• 48:46Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 48:47Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And so a lot of us have to think like, as I'm a college professor, when we go back in the fall, because I've been on a one-year sabbatical, it is beginning to hit me, I'm a, and my colleagues have all had to do this already. They've all had to go fully online. It works for some people, it doesn't work for others. My partner is, is, he's a art professor who teaches sculpture. He's like, I am not sure how to teach sculpture, you know, on a camera. You know, so he's doing it, video chats, and they're doing the best they can, but we are all reinvent ourselves. And, and I look at all the K through 12 teachers who are doing the heroic work of trying to create, take home curriculum, and my, my daughter's high school teachers are doing really amazing things. And, you know, everyone's learning something new. That's the wake-up call.

• 49:30Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  We all, we're going, we're going into a new future together. And I think it's the together part and, um, turning to others who are going through what you're going through is critical. It's critical.

• 49:39Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. And, and I'm sure you see this the most, these, everything you're saying is, is, everyone, I hope you're listening, I hope you, I hope you're taking a few notes, I hope you're going to try one of those 70 distraction activities that we heard. I think, you know, one of the challenges we have is that we're always like, okay, this is the new normal. And, and my question to that always is, what is normal? Because, you know, normal isn't necessarily a good thing. And there wasn't, and nothing was ever really normal because things were always changing. And this is obviously something bigger that we're all worried about, but there was something we were worried about anyway before.

• 50:21Jay Shetty?

  And so it's almost like wanting things to go back to being the same doesn't ever make sense because nothing ever is the same. Like, nothing ever goes back to. Could you help explain that from a psychological perspective around how?

• 50:35Jay Shetty?

  I think we know that the only thing consistent is change and uncertainty, but we have this attachment to normals.

• 50:42Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  We felt safe when we had routines because we knew where the predators were. We knew where the threats were. We created our safeties around familiarity. Anything unfamiliar represented something dangerous or a threat. Now, while our brains at some level have evolved past that, not entirely. It's why we might react very tentatively with a stranger, same thing. So it's now, and it's why many people just run to the familiar. Even when the familiar is dysfunctional, they will go back to the familiar because it is just that. It is a huge phase shift to help people

• 51:19Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  the idea that familiar isn't the only way. You can break out of routine. You can break out of familiar, but it's not what our brains are wired to do. I don't know if you've ever read Rick Hansen's book Buddha's Brain. If you haven't, that might be another good quarantine book for you to read because it's a top flight book. Because what Hansen argues in this book is that, you know, our, our, our minds, our memories are very much oriented to remembering the stuff that keeps us safe.

• 51:46Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 51:47Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And that stuff is largely not good. It's like, where does the tiger live? Where is the poisonous berry? You know, where, you know, here comes another bill. Here comes a notice from the IRS, like threat, threat, threat, threat. Cause we're, we're focused on those things again, because our brains are designed to, to keep our little organism intact. Right? He argues that it takes a intentional work to change our orientation to joy. You know, or even to me, I'd argue even beyond joy is meaning. How do we keep orienting ourselves to meaning, meaning, meaning, meaning? That's everything. I think we talk too much about happiness. It's really about meaning and meaning isn't always blissful happiness, but it's something bigger to me. And so I think it's

• 52:29Jay Shetty?

  Yes, absolutely.

• 52:31Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Reorienting the brain. And this to me, people spend hours in the gym trying to work their bodies in a new way to get that new muscle. I am telling you, go to that gym that is for your mind and do that same kind of resistance training with your brain. Like figure out a way to orient in a different way. Routine isn't always good. And in fact, This is the first time at an entire global population level, we're learning, we're gonna have to change routine completely. And it's a, and listen, this has happened in history before. It's happened during wars. It's happened during the Great Depression. We've been here before as a Yes. The problem is this is all so spaced out that we don't always learn. And I have to say that any of us who've had

• 53:16Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  parents who were immigrants or migrants or refugees of any kind, we saw them do that. Like I saw that in my, what my parents had to go through to immigrate to the United States. It wasn't easy. There was no FaceTime, there was even phone calls. I saw that they had to go, they had to literally flip a life. And so I think all of us in our worlds have somebody who completely flipped a life and left an entire old one behind. My advice to everyone is figure out who that person is in your world. It may be a grandparent, maybe an aunt, it may be an uncle, which may be someone older, you know, talk to them and figure out how they went and they literally turned their life 180 degrees.

• 53:57Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And Jay, it doesn't just have to be someone older than you. I truly believe at this time in history, one of the groups of people who gets this better than anyone is anyone who survived trauma. Because anyone who is a trauma survivor knows what life feels like. You're living your life, you're living your life. An event or a series of events happens and your life will never be the same again. And a trauma survivor in some ways had it more difficult because they're the only ones often who are a very small group survived that. And they're like, oh my gosh, my life has completely changed, but other stuff hasn't. We at least are all going through this trauma together, but trauma survivors get what it's like to have a life and not have that life anymore and now have to go through a very, very different world

• 54:40Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  that is specific to them. So we can do this. People do this all the time. We just have to, we just, you have to understand, we can do this. You can re, you can reinvent, you can do things differently. And, and this is a call to arms. This is a real call to arms.

• 54:56Jay Shetty?

  For sure. No, I think you're spot on. And I want you to know that if you could see me, I'm like nodding away right now. Uh, I'm just completely, you know, this is exactly what we need to try and try and do. Now, tell me about, tell me about what's happening with people who unfortunately this time fall back into their default old habits, whether that's alcohol, or whether it's an addiction or a drug, or even even going back to an ex-boyfriend or a girlfriend at least. Like, you know, I think these kind of scenarios shock us into our past. Like, they just take us back into, again, what Thich Nhat Hanh would call familiar pain versus unfamiliar pain.

• 55:39Jay Shetty?

  And we go back to that familiar pain because the unfamiliar pain of being alone or dealing with this new challenge is feels too big to bear. How does someone process themselves feeling like they're going back to a toxic relationship or going back to a a toxic habit?

• 55:56Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Well, so again, a lot of the going back, the going back to the toxic habit, going back to the unhealthy relationship, is strangely and paradoxically, an attempt at getting control. Because the devil you know is at least something you know. And at a time when everything is so uncertain, we're going back to the things we know, even when they're things that are not good for us. There's comfort, you know, whether it's comfort food and comfort dysfunction, we go back to, we go back to comfort. So, you know, it's interesting. I was, I was reading this workbook this morning that I'm using with clients. And there was, they had this wonderful quote by the, I think, Roman philosopher, Ephate Tides.

• 56:38Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And he says, what assistance can we find in the fight against habit? Try the opposite.

• 56:44Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 56:44Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And again, it goes back to. Instraining I'm talking about is do the opposite, you know, of what you usually do. And that becomes like, oh, I usually do this. Oh, for fun, let me try to go. If you always go left, fake right. You know, and I want everyone to, and now we have a little bit of the, the time and the stuckness to play with the oppositeness. Part of it is to catch yourself and say, oh, this is how I usually do it. All right, what does the opposite feel like? Because to understand that what you're doing is you're getting drifted into that familiar lane because it is a way to have a sense of control and predictability. Because even dysfunction is predictable. But it is mindfulness to be aware of what it is you're doing. It's thinking to know that this is, you're going to end up in exactly the same place as you did before.

• 57:29Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And then third, action is to try the opposite, to do something different. And sometimes doing the opposite, doing something different is, not sometimes, always, is uncomfortable. You know, and so it's also learning. Discomfort is part of the journey. And that if you can find meaning and purpose in that discomfort, it will make more sense. Like, oh, yeah, this is uncomfortable, but I'm trying the opposite. I'm breaking out of a cycle. I have always, my quest, my meaning, my purpose is to, I've been wanting to break out of my dysfunctional cycles. I've been wanting to try a new path. And I have to say again, Jay, for many people out there, this is going to be the slap across the face for people and say, to heck with it. I'm going back to community college. I'm going to work towards getting that degree.

• 58:12Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I've lost everything else now. Why not finally think about starting that, my own business? Or moving here when the border is finally open to here, there, or everywhere? I think a lot of people are having some wake up calls like, wow, if it could be taken away this quickly, maybe I need to sort of view this as a call to arms. But that means doing the opposite. And that oppositeness is really sort of an interesting place for people to play around with right now.

• 58:34Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely. I'm completely with you and.

• 58:38Jay Shetty?

  And I think, yeah, like you said, knowing that for the first time, we can really feel like we're in something together.

• 58:46Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Uh huh.

• 58:47Jay Shetty?

  The whole world, right? It's like it's, there's never been many things that people could all say, we're all a part of this, we're all experiencing it. And now's the biggest time to realize that there is meaning and purpose in that because that

• 58:59Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Absolutely.

• 59:00Jay Shetty?

  Purpose connects all of us and affects all of us.

• 59:03Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Uh huh.

• 59:04Jay Shetty?

  And it's, it's unique to truly feel understood.

• 59:09Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Uh huh.

• 59:09Jay Shetty?

  Whereas now, on every different level, there are plenty of people who can understand exactly what you're going through.

• 59:15Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yes.

• 59:16Jay Shetty?

  And so I think our, our need to feel understood for the first time is, is really something that we should exercise, where we can share with people that are close to us, that we love, that love us and feel understood. Tell us about uh, relationships and we, we talked about this bit on Red Table Talk, but you know, with so many people spending so much more time together. What are some of the positive practices that couples and relationships can take on? Because I also feel just like you and you know, where this podcast started, there are a lot of people who currently are carrying everyone else.

• 59:53Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yes.

• 59:53Jay Shetty?

  How do we help those carriers in our homes, whether it's the mother or father that does all the cooking, the cleaning, the teaching the kids their curriculum, whoever's carrying that? How do we help the carrier, even if we're not the carrier? And, and how can we ease our relationships at this time?

• 1:00:13Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  So I think there's two levels of that. I mean, one is within the household, right? So if you're in, if you're actually household with people and you, somebody's taking on the burden of something, step in. You know, step in and, and that also means for the people who are doing all, taking on the burden, you gotta let people in. So some people are saying, well, this is ridiculous. If I let them into the kitchen, if I let the kids into the kitchen to help make dinner, they're gonna make a mess. Let them make a mess. Let them learn to take that, help take that responsibility. And it may be that you're eating some not great spaghetti, but they learned at that point, they wanted to help, let them help. I think that we've got to let our helpers in. Number one. Number two, if you are somebody who's doing a lot of this work, and it might be just because developmentally where the people in your home are, they can't help as much, or they're

• 1:00:57Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  choosing not to help, or whatever, then you've got to take care of you. Like, you've got to give yourself that point, like, I'm putting my feet up for a minute, and you've got to give yourself that permission, give yourself the time to take a break. Now, if you're reflecting, you care about, let's say it's your friend across the country who you know is stuck at home with the three kids, or is taking care of elderly family members and keeping them safe, or is having to drive around and dropping groceries, whatever their stories, or their first responder, or their healthcare professional, and you want to be there for them, but you can't, because you can't physically get to them and help them. Call them, send them text messages, say, "You're amazing. I see all that you're doing. You know, you're a hero to me. I wish I could help more, but if there's anything I can do remotely." But just letting them know, "I see how amazing you are.

• 1:01:42Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I see what you're doing." Like you said, all that anybody wants is to be understood, and even for many people can keep carrying their heavy, heavy burdens if they know there's someone bearing witness. And I think that we all, every single person on the planet right now, should be rallying to bear witness to those around us in any number of ways. If you're going into the grocery store, you offer a kind word to the clerk, who is putting themselves at risk to be there. If your friend is a first responder, you just tell them, "I love you. Thank you for all you're doing. Please be safe." Whoever you reach out to in your life, your friend who's homeschooling three kids right now, you say, "Girl, you are my hero, and if there's anything I can do, maybe I can zoom in and teach your kids history, I'll do that for you."

• 1:02:26Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  But we all have ways we can care for our carers, but it means we have to jump out of our own heads long enough to recognize that people around us need something. Sometimes it's just sort of a smile, "Thanks for being there." Now, back to your original question, Jay, of relationships. When it comes to intimate relationships... One thing that people can really learn right now is now that we're all in proximity is take that minute and say thank you, take notice of something someone's done, work on more clear communication. Now, you know, my space I work in this is very unique. I work with difficult antagonistic narcissistic relationships. That's a different episode. That's a different day because obviously those things are getting more and more

• 1:03:06Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  toxic by the day. But for relationships that do have good bones, you can keep those good bones, but you're going to have to be more aware. Just let your partner know, I see what you're doing. Thank you. You know, thanks for helping. How can I help you? With the other people in your home, I know, listen, I got two adolescent daughters and there are times I just want to scream, but I have to take a step back and say they're so frustrated that they can't see their friends and do the things that teenagers do. And when I catch myself, I can say, I am so sorry. I know this, and I'm working all the time. So they're frustrated that I'm not available. Instead of saying, wanting to scream at them saying, hey, I'm making money for the family. I want to screech at them. Instead, I have to catch myself and say, you know, they're going through their process and say, how can I help? And maybe it's just I cuddle under their comforter and watch these ridiculous TikTok

• 1:03:51Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  videos they watch me. Not what I want to be doing with my time, but it's what they need. And so it's giving them what they need to help them go do the next thing that they need to do.

• 1:04:00Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely. And again, this is such valuable insight right now because encouraging people to to serve and support anyone, you know, I think sometimes we see services raising a million dollars or raising a hundred thousand dollars or, you know, or impacting thousands of lives. And actually, it's just about that one smile. It's just about that one phone call and that one person. And I think now's the time to re-encourage that that community tribe vibe where you have certain parents who will help with the education, others who will help with food delivery, you know, whatever it is, like ways in which we can support each other right now. And actually, what I

• 1:04:43Jay Shetty?

  find is that service helps us find meaning and purpose.

• 1:04:47Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yes.

• 1:04:47Jay Shetty?

  Because right now, when we're like, what do I do? I don't know what to do. I don't know how I feel useful or accomplished every day. When you make someone smile or when you make, when you help someone else's child learn something or your own child learn something like that feeling is so rewarding. And and sometimes it's even more rewarding when you're going outside of your own home and supporting others as well as supporting your home, of course, we know charity starts at home, but I think it's important that we do try and serve and extend ourselves where we can to whatever degree we can, because there's something to be said for finding meaning and purpose there.

• 1:05:22Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Absolutely. I mean, with that, and that is where so much of meaning and purpose is found, is service to other, and that looks many different ways, you know. For example, I know in L A, like, there's a, there's a website that I get emails from called L A Works, and it's all the volunteer opportunities people can be engaging in, both in person or remote. You know, and there's things people can be doing. And so, you know, it's figuring what that is. I, I think that even, let's say, you work in a company and you lost your job and you still have coworkers and reaching out to them, hey, you're doing okay. I mean, people also lost their jobs too. There are, there's a thousand small things we can do. It doesn't have to mean that we're putting ourselves on the front line, lines and causing actually more problems when they're telling us to stay home.

• 1:06:07Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Figuring out what those things you can do for others, because that is really where the core of meaning and purpose is. And, and I do think that this is a time when I hope everyone at home is drilling down and saying, what, what am I about? Like, really, what, what, because this is, this has lifted a lot of existential questions for people, like, you know, people are really grappling with this. If the whole world could go upside down like that, why was I walking on this day to day treadmill the way I was? And I know for a lot of people, this has been that wake up call, which I don't think is a bad thing, frankly. And so now it's like, what, really, what are you about? And that can be anything. First of all, I'd say, I'm really about family. Like, this is, this is everything to me. And they may be thinking about like, okay, how can, what do I need to do in my

• 1:06:51Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  life to really make that happen? Is it time? Is it whatever, whatever it may be? You know, how you connect with each other, all those things we've talked about. So I think it's a lot of people are being awoken to that piece of themselves when, you know, when the rug's been sort of pulled out from under them. And that's when all the learning happens.

• 1:07:10Jay Shetty?

  One hundred percent. Dr. Ramani, you've been incredible and so generous with your time today. Thank you so much. I'm so deeply appreciative. Sorry for going over time.

• 1:07:19Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Oh, no, it's totally fine.

• 1:07:21Jay Shetty?

  Pushed back a million things, but I really want to help people learn more from you because I really feel that the way you think through these challenges is so, so powerful for people. And so I'd encourage everyone to go and follow Dr. Ramani on Instagram. She's Dr. D O C T O R Ramani, R A M A N I. Please, please, please go and follow her on Instagram where she's sharing these insights daily. I know you're doing lots of live streams where you're giving people advice when they're joining and asking questions. And so if this podcast has had an impact with you, please, please, please go and follow up with the work that she's sharing, especially around this time, and on YouTube as well.

• 1:08:04Jay Shetty?

  Dr. Ramani, same name on YouTube.

• 1:08:07Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:07Jay Shetty?

  She has over a hundred and fifty videos on YouTube that you can watch from everything, whether it's parenting through narcissism, of course, which is your major focus, which can be a big challenge right now for people, and so many other useful insights. So please go and follow her and support across social media. And Dr. Ramani, is there anything that I haven't asked you today that you feel is really useful to people that you feel you should have mentioned?

• 1:08:34Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  You know what, there is a, there is a line, like again, I've been reading like you as much as I can. And there was a line by Marcus Aurelius that I, because I really think that if people could hold on to this, I mean, and if they were, if he was saying this thousands of years ago, clearly it had some staying power. Is that, it goes like this, "Don't let your reflection on a whole sweep of life crush you. Don't fill your mind with all the bad things that might still happen. Stay focused on the present situation and ask yourself why it's so unbearable and can't be survived."

• 1:09:05Jay Shetty?

  Wow.

• 1:09:06Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  All of us are survivors right now, and in each moment we get through, whether it's preparing lunch for our kids, or looking for a new job, or trying to just get through an hour without tears, that is all survival and you will survive it. And I think that, you know, that life will always... Put challenges in front of us, but it is actually in these moments of sadness and fear that we grow and we grow much more quickly under these circumstances. And so growth hurts. Growth hurts. And I am a believer that this event may very well shake the trees in a way that we learn to be connected. I think we are all going to be so happy to see each other

• 1:09:47Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  when this happens again and maybe really see what the beauty is of being a human being and having these people around us, no matter how much we're suffering and seeing that our suffering and our joy and our bliss and our fear is being mirrored in every person we come across. And maybe that this was sadly the wake up call we needed, but here it is. So let's run with it.

• 1:10:06Jay Shetty?

  Absolutely. Thank you so much, Dr. Roman. So grateful for your time. Send so much love to your family. And like I said, I'm so excited to get together again afterwards. I'm so excited to have you on the podcast.

• 1:10:18Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I look forward to it. Yeah.

• 1:10:19Jay Shetty?

  This is going to be so useful to people right now. So thank you so much, honestly.

• 1:10:23Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Thank you. Thank you, Jay. Take good care.

• 1:10:45Speaker 06

  When fall comes back around, there's a sense of a reset and new pieces from Lululemon's fall drop are an inspiration to push your goals and elevate your routines. As your calendar fills, easy to layer styles meet the demands of your day. And as you challenge yourself to try even more, versatile sets transition with you. The Lululemon fall lineup brings new levels of comfort and confidence, whether you're starting something fresh or starting something over. Check out the latest arrivals in store and on lululemon.com now.

• 1:11:15Speaker 07

  This episode is brought to you by Netflix's new series East of Eden. A bold reimagining of John Steinbeck's masterpiece, following generations of the Trask family through love, betrayal, and the choices that shape humanity. Starring Mike Feist and Christopher Abbott as the Trask brothers. And Florence Pugh as Kathy Ames, the complex anti-heroine determined to build the life she wants, no matter the cost. Watch East of Eden, October 1st, only on Netflix.

• 1:11:44Speaker 08

  Mr. President, my company foreme of the explosion on our rig.

• 1:11:48Speaker 09

  On October 2nd.

• 1:11:49Speaker 08

  Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me.

• 1:11:54Speaker 09

  Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess, and Digger's gonna dig us out. From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 1:12:01Speaker 08

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You stop, you freeze to death, that's what.

• 1:12:05Speaker 09

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 1:12:08Speaker 08

  I'm not the first daddy.

• 1:12:10Speaker 09

  Digger. See the trailer online, only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Out of middle of our parent.