Lori Gottlieb ON: How To Deal With Difficult Emotions During Tough Times To Support Your Family & Friends Effectively

You can order my new book 8 RULES OF LOVE at 8rulesoflove.com or at a retail store near you. You can also get the chance to see me live on my first ever world tour. This is a 90 minute interactive show where I will take you on a journey of finding, keeping and even letting go of love. Head to jayshettytour.com and find out if I'll be in a city near you. Thank you so much for all your support - I hope to see you soon. Lori Gottlieb admits to Jay Shetty that she has always been fascinated by people’s stories. This allure first led her to television, but a desire to make an even deeper impact drew her to a career in counseling. There, she focuses on helping people explore their stories and rediscover their self-worth. Gottlieb, one of the leading therapists in the country, sat down with Shetty to talk about the power of emotions, human connection, and good therapy. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jay Shetty?

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• 0:44Jay Shetty?

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• 2:16Jay Shetty?

  And when everything around you is changing, it helps to have a few things you can rely on. AG1 Next Gen is one of those easy habits to keep. It's the clinically backed, comprehensive daily health drink that supports your gut health, energy production, and foundational nutrition all in one scoop. AG1's ingredients are sourced from quality partners for absorption, potency, and nutrient density to deliver the foundational nutrition your body needs. And alongside a proper diet, AG1 Next Gen meets 94% of nutrient requirements and is clinically shown to enrich the gut microbiome. For a limited time, save 20% on your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1

• 2:59Jay Shetty?

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• 3:09Lori Gottlieb?

  You made the mistake, you're so stupid. Or, you know, oh, look at all those couples, I'll never find anyone. We don't realize that that's what's playing in our heads because we don't reality check with other people that they're also struggling with some of the same things. And the thing is, self-flagellation never enhances our growth. So people think, I'm going to be tough on myself and I'm going to hold myself accountable and then I'm going to grow and change. Uh-uh.

• 3:39Jay Shetty?

  Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every single one of you who I'm so grateful to that you come back every single week to listen, to learn, and to grow. Now, I am so excited to be talking to you today. I can't believe it. My new book, Eight Rules of Love, is out and I cannot wait to share it with you. I am so, so excited for you to read this book, for you to listen to this book. I read the audiobook. If you haven't got it already, make sure you go to eightrulesoflove.com. It's dedicated to anyone who's trying to find, keep, or let go of love. So if you've got friends that are dating, broken up, or struggling with love, make sure you grab this book.

• 4:23Jay Shetty?

  And I'd love to invite you to come and see me for my global tour, Love Rules. Go to jayshettytour.com to learn more information about tickets, VIP experiences, and more. I can't wait to see you this year. I'm really excited and grateful for today's guest. I think this is going to be a conversation that I know a lot of you have been looking forward to. And I know it's going to be a conversation that's going to help you with wherever you are in life right now. So please, please, please welcome to the show the one and only Laurie Gottlieb. Now Laurie Gottlieb is a psychotherapist and New York Times bestselling author of Maybe You Should Talk To Someone, which is being adapted as a television series with Eva Longoria.

• 5:07Jay Shetty?

  In addition to her clinical practice, she writes The Atlantic's weekly Dear Therapist Advice column and contributes regularly to The New York Times and many other publications. She's a member of the Advisory Council for Bring Change To Mind. Laurie is a sought after expert in media such as The Today Show, Good Morning America, and NPR's Fresh Air. Her new Dear Therapist podcast, produced by Katie Couric and co-hosted with Guy Winch, helps listeners to see themselves more clearly and debuts this spring. Make sure you check it out and subscribe in advance. I'm excited to learn more about therapy, human relationships, and more. Welcome to the show Laurie and her new book, Maybe You Should Talk To Someone.

• 5:51Jay Shetty?

  We will put the link to the book into all the captions and comments, so make sure you go and grab a copy. Laurie, thank you for being here.

• 5:58Lori Gottlieb?

  Well, thank you for having me.

• 5:59Jay Shetty?

  Now, this is a real treat and as we were preparing, I ran into how many mutual friends we have or mutual people that we've crossed paths with. So I've interviewed Guy.

• 6:09Lori Gottlieb?

  Oh, wow.

• 6:10Jay Shetty?

  Many, feels like many lifetimes ago, but when I was at HuffPost with Arianna Huffington. And at the same time, Eva Longoria is a really close friend. So it's just, I feel like, and then you know Jim and Aiman.

• 6:22Lori Gottlieb?

  Yes, yes.

• 6:23Jay Shetty?

  So when it comes together, it's always.

• 6:24Lori Gottlieb?

  It's a small world.

• 6:25Jay Shetty?

  Absolutely, absolutely. But I want to start somewhere where I'm not sure, maybe you get asked it a lot or not, but I'd love to start with, tell me about your latest adventure with your son.

• 6:36Lori Gottlieb?

  My latest adventure with my son. Well, there are a lot of adventures because he's 14.

• 6:40Jay Shetty?

  Yep.

• 6:40Lori Gottlieb?

  And he, you know, he's a really interesting person at this age. I think that when kids are younger, you have, you have more of a, there's more of a hierarchy in the family. And I think all of a sudden, they start thinking in all of these complex ways and they make you, they hold up a mirror to you and make you ask questions about yourself and the world in a different way. So I would say our adventures are conversations.

• 7:07Jay Shetty?

  Nice. And, and does, does what you know about the human mind and connection, relationships, where does it help and where does it hinder in the parenting process?

• 7:17Lori Gottlieb?

  That's such a great question. You know, I think what it does is it gives me an awareness of the importance of letting kids, letting people access their feelings. So, so many times as parents, we get uncomfortable with a feeling that our kids are having and we try to talk them out of their feelings. So, you know, a kid says, I'm angry about that. And we say, really? You're so sensitive. Or we say, you know, or, or they say, I'm sad. And we say, oh, you know, well, here's a balloon. You know, let's go to Disneyland, right? We try, we try to like sort of talk them out of it. Or I'm scared. And we say, oh, don't be scared. There's nothing to be scared about. Be brave. And I think what happens is then people don't know how to access their feelings because

• 8:01Lori Gottlieb?

  they were always talked out of them. So I think the, the benefit, you know, the upside of being the child of a therapist is that nothing gets swept under the rug. You know, the downside is that he'll be totally screwed up anyway, because, you know, that's life.

• 8:15Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. What are the lasting effects of that? What you're saying is spot on. Like, we're always trying to negate or neglect feelings and emotions that people share with us. What are the long lasting effects of that? In adulthood?

• 8:28Lori Gottlieb?

  Right. I think what happens is that people try to get rid of their feelings. They don't realize that feelings are positive, that our feelings are a compass, that they tell us, they give us information. If you're sad, why are you sad? What needs to change? If you're anxious, what is that telling you about what's not working in your life? Even envy, people are so afraid of envy. And I always say to people, follow your envy. It tells you what you want. So instead of sitting there and looking at what everybody else has, say, what do I want? How can this help me to take the, the small step that I need to take? To do something different, so I can have what I want. So what happens is people will minimize their feelings. You know, well, I have a roof over my head and food on the table, so I shouldn't be sad. I shouldn't be anxious. I shouldn't feel the way that I feel.

• 9:13Lori Gottlieb?

  People will try to numb out their feelings. So many people feel like, you know, numbness is, is a way of, you know, like, kind of managing their feelings. But I feel like numbness isn't nothingness. Numbness is, it's not, it's not not having feelings. It's being overwhelmed by too many feelings. And your feelings don't go away just because you push them down. And that's the problem, because our feelings will come out in behaviors, in a short temperedness, in anxiety, in too much food or wine or time on the internet. A colleague of mine calls the internet. She said, "It's the most effective short-term, non-prescription painkiller out there."

• 9:53Jay Shetty?

  True, true. And, and like every non-prescription painkiller, it also has a lot of side effects.

• 10:00Lori Gottlieb?

  Well, yeah, yeah.

• 10:02Jay Shetty?

  Terrible ones.

• 10:02Lori Gottlieb?

  The problem is that if you don't know what you feel, you, you don't know what your story is, right? And I think that our stories are, are this way of making sense of our lives. And so what happens is, I, as a therapist, see people come in and they tell me their story. And the thing is, their story, there are so many problems with the story. There, there, we're all unreliable narrators, right? We're telling a story in a particular way. But I think if we don't know what we feel, we only see a very narrow part of the story and it limits us.

• 10:33Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, so true, so true. And, and I feel half the challenge is also that we've just become so disconnected with knowing how we feel about anything. So, I mean, one of the things that really helps me is, I'm always thinking, like, after eating a meal, I know whether I like that cuisine or not. Like, it's very clear to me. After I watch a movie, I know whether I like the movie or not. So I often try and apply that same sense check with myself after I meet a person, after I go to a place, after I interact with an energy. Is that a good habit? Is that a habit that you recommend? Is that, what are the easiest ways to get in closer to our feelings and actually understand how we feel about something or someone?

• 11:12Lori Gottlieb?

  Well, I think the first thing is to, is to notice when you get afraid of a feeling. I think it's almost like our fear of our feelings is scarier than the feelings themselves. So, you know, what happens is somebody might feel something that they feel like somebody else might not like. And so they say, oh, I'm going to adjust my feeling to please others, to make sure that it's how I'm supposed to feel about this. And then they lose their sense of their place of knowing. We all have a place of knowing inside of us. And we sometimes, it's almost like we get lost and we can't find it because we're so concerned about how people are going to feel about the way we feel.

• 11:50Jay Shetty?

  Absolutely, yeah. And I find like, a big part of that is also a survival mechanism, right? Like, it's a feeling of like, community or feeling of tribe, where we want to feel almost artificial connection, because that feels safer than feeling uncertain disconnection.

• 12:07Lori Gottlieb?

  Right, it's for survival, we have to connect, we have to belong. You can't be alone, you will get eaten by, you know, wherever you are. So you have to have the tribe around you. But the problem is that it's not an authentic way of having the tribe around you when you're pretending to be something that you're not. So so many people in therapy, for instance, they they they come in and they have a mask on. And they're so afraid of, you know, they want to entertain me, they want to be liked by me. They're afraid that they're boring. And I always say that if you show me the truth of who you are, I will be fascinated by you, no matter what that truth is. But if you're like, look over here, look over here, look over here, I'm going to be so bored. I'm sitting there going, what is this person trying to tell me? What is the significance of what they're saying?

• 12:52Lori Gottlieb?

  And what they're really doing is trying to keep me out.

• 12:54Jay Shetty?

  Yes, yeah, absolutely, yeah. And it's almost like, being like a magician who's scared away of giving their tricks and you're trying to keep everyone entertained, but then you never see that person beyond that mask.

• 13:05Lori Gottlieb?

  Right.

• 13:06Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. Tell me about a time when you've given someone some advice where you actually realized that you didn't feel it was the best advice? Like, how does a therapist process that? Because I feel like, in any profession, whether I'm a coach, you know, you're a therapist, like, when you're giving advice, it's almost like there are times when you're so certain about a belief, you're so certain about value, and then I've looked back at stuff I've said and just been like, I was so wrong. Have you ever felt that? And how do you reconcile that for you and the person you've been working with?

• 13:38Lori Gottlieb?

  I think it's really important for me to remember that I might know what I would do in a certain situation, but that might not be the best choice for them because I'm not living their life. So I have this word taped up in my office. It's ultra crepitarianism. And it means the habit of giving advice or opinions outside of one's knowledge or competence.

• 13:56Jay Shetty?

  I love it.

• 13:57Lori Gottlieb?

  And I think that that applies to our friendships and our romantic relationship, everything, because you can't know what another person should do. You can help them come to a place of knowing for themselves what they should do. So I'm always working to help people to figure out, to get to that place of what should I do and not ask the outside world and not, you know, we crowdsource on the internet. We do that like we ask the internet. People will type in these questions like, you know, husband is cheating. What should I do? And they crowdsource that. And it will be different for each person.

• 14:35Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I always feel that we have this extreme of like, when we're going through something, we ask everyone for every opinion.

• 14:41Lori Gottlieb?

  Yes.

• 14:41Jay Shetty?

  Or we do the opposite, where we ask no one for nothing. Like you don't even ask the experts or a therapist or someone who can actually help you get closer to the answer.

• 14:48Lori Gottlieb?

  And the reason we don't ask is because of shame. I think so many times we keep these secrets from ourselves, from other people, because we feel we have so much shame around the fact that we're even struggling with something. You know, so many people keep secrets from me as a therapist. And Carl Jung called secrets psychic poison. And I think that's what they are, is like when we keep something. And there's a difference between, of course, privacy, which we all need to have, and secrecy. Secrecy is about shame. Privacy is like a healthy boundary.

• 15:17Jay Shetty?

  Wow, that's fascinating. Yeah.

• 15:19Lori Gottlieb?

  Secrecy is, I can't tell this to anybody. I get this. I get this so much. I see a difference too between the way men and women keep things to themselves, right? So, so many men will come in and they'll say, I've never told anyone this before. And then what they tell me feels Like, really? That? That is your big secret? And I feel so much compassion for them because I feel like it's so sad that in our culture, we tell men, "You cannot be vulnerable. You cannot share this because you will appear weak," or, you know, whatever it is. It's not okay. Women will also come in and they'll say, "I've never told anyone this before." But then they'll say, "Except for my mother, my sister, and my best friend."

• 16:04Lori Gottlieb?

  So they're told maybe one to three people, but for them, it feels like it's a secret and they haven't told anyone. So I feel like, you know, what is this shame about? Why is it so hard when the reality is that we're all going through similar things? And if we don't talk about it, we don't know that.

• 16:21Jay Shetty?

  Absolutely, yeah. And I think that's the saddest thing about all of that is we feel like everyone's got it figured out apart from us.

• 16:28Lori Gottlieb?

  Yes.

• 16:29Jay Shetty?

  Right? It's not only that we feel shame, it's like we feel like, "Yeah, like, oh, she's got it all figured out, he's got it figured out, and that person in my company's got it figured out," whatever it is, "but I'm the only one."

• 16:39Lori Gottlieb?

  Right. And then what happens is we have this voice in our head that is so self-critical, so unkind, because we don't get the feedback of, "Oh, this is normal and everybody's going through it." And so we walk around, I had this, this one therapy patient write down everything that she said to herself over the course of a few days and come back and read it to me. And she comes back and she has this sheet of paper and she says, "I can't read this, I'm such a bully." And there were things like, you know, "Are you gonna eat that with those thighs?" Or, "You made the mistake, you're so stupid." Or, you know, "Oh, look at all those couples, I'll never find anyone." And we don't realize that that, that's what's playing in our heads because we don't reality check with other people that they're also struggling with some of the same things.

• 17:19Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 17:19Lori Gottlieb?

  And the thing is, self-flagellation never enhances our growth. So people think, "I'm gonna be tough on myself and I'm gonna hold myself accountable and then I'm gonna grow and change." Uh-uh. Self-compassion is how you grow and change. And that doesn't mean not holding yourself responsible for things. What it means is that you can be accountable and you can also be compassionate. And that combination is going to help you grow and change.

• 17:46Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely. And by the way, if anyone, I'm just going to throw it out there. If me or Laurie look like we're sweating, it's because we are sitting in a sauna. Like, we are in a sauna right now.

• 17:57Lori Gottlieb?

  With no A C.

• 17:57Jay Shetty?

  With no A C, just for the benefit of this audio for each and every single one of you. So in case you see us sweat, it is the the depth of the conversation, yes, but it is also the fact that it is a sauna.

• 18:08Lori Gottlieb?

  And it's only going to get worse. There will be water this very soon.

• 18:11Jay Shetty?

  But Laurie, tell me about what first took you into wanting to be a therapist? Because I feel like today, therapy is, and I mean, of course, I'm only looking at it in the generation that I'm in, but I'm seeing therapy being a very growing need in the world. I'm seeing it as an industry that I believe we need more qualified people to serve people and to help people and support people. We're seeing the rise of mental health. When you decided to be a therapist, what was your calling to that? And where did you see its role at that time versus how you've seen it evolve?

• 18:47Lori Gottlieb?

  So it's interesting because I came to the therapy profession very late in life. I never imagined that I would be a therapist. I started off when I graduated from college. I was working doing film development and then I moved over to NBC and I was doing prime time series development. And this was a long time ago. This was the year the E R and Friends premiered. So this is, you know, nineteen ninety four. Great shows. But when I was working on E R, it was interesting because I loved, what I loved about working in TV and film too, was telling these rich human stories. And I felt like E R did that so well. I mean, nobody goes into an emergency room because they they expected something to happen, right?

• 19:32Lori Gottlieb?

  So so it's these inflection points in life. And we had a consultant on the show who was a real E R doctor. And I spent some time in the E R with him and he kept saying to me, I think you like it better here than you like your day job. And he said, you should go to medical school. And I said, well, I'm not, I'm not doing that. I was a French major. I'm not doing that. But I went to medical school. And I, I, I felt like in medical school, you saw the real stories. So it wasn't the fictionalized versions of them. It was, it was real life. And when I got there, it was like, I went, I was up to at Stanford and it was like the, the dot com boom, the first one before the bus. And everybody was saying, oh, you know, there's this new thing called managed care and you're not going to be able to spend time with your patients in the way that you want to. And I was really about, you know, had this idea of being the family doctor

• 20:17Lori Gottlieb?

  who guides people through their lives, which of course leads to the therapy thing. But I didn't realize that at the time. And so I, I ultimately, I started writing when I was there and I left to become a journalist where I felt like I could really spend time with people, hear their stories, help them tell their stories. And then later, uh, when I had a baby, um, I was, you know, it was one of those things where I felt like I needed more human contact during the day, adult contact during the day. And the UPS guy would come with all the deliveries and, and literally I would detain him and be like, you know, hey, how about those diapers? He would back away to his big brown truck. And I thought, something is wrong here. He would, at a certain point, he would like tiptoe to the door, gently put the package down.

• 21:01Lori Gottlieb?

  So I could not engage him in conversation.

• 21:03Jay Shetty?

  Talking to strangers.

• 21:04Lori Gottlieb?

  And right. And so I called up the dean at Stanford and I said, listen, maybe I should come back and do psychiatry. And she said, if you do psychiatry, you'll probably be prescribing Celexin 15 minute intervals. I know what you wanted to do. Why don't you get a graduate degree in clinical psychology and do the work, the deep work that you want to do? And that's exactly what I did. So I feel like I went from telling people stories to helping people change their stories in the therapy room. I feel like my writing background is so useful because I'm almost like an editor in the therapy room where people come in with these faulty narratives and I help them to rewrite them. One of the things I think people feel when they come to therapy is, um, you know, I really want to understand who I am.

• 21:45Lori Gottlieb?

  And I feel like part of knowing who you are, part of getting to know yourself is getting to unknow yourself. It's to let go of those limiting stories that you've been telling yourself over and over. So that you can live your life and not that faulty narrative that you've been telling yourself about your life. And that opens you up to so many more possibilities. So sometimes what we think we know about ourself. Isn't really accurate. And that's the editing that we do in the therapy room.

• 22:19Jay Shetty?

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• 23:04Jay Shetty?

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• 23:48Jay Shetty?

  Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market. If you're talking about quality food, you can't forget Whole Foods Market, who've been holding themselves to the highest standards since they opened in 1980.

• 24:11Jay Shetty?

  That means you'll see thousands of organic products across their stores, from the produce department to the aisles. It also means you'll never see certain ingredients. They've banned artificial sweeteners and colors, high fructose corn syrup and more, so you can shop with peace of mind. Shop Whole Foods Market in-store or online. Yeah, absolutely. You're so right. We need to unknow and unlearn

• 24:35Lori Gottlieb?

  Yes.

• 24:35Jay Shetty?

  so much more than we feel we need to learn about ourselves and know about ourselves. It's the uncovering. In my book, I talk about the analogy that's given in the spiritual text of a dusty mirror. So it's like if you look into a mirror and you look into it and you ask, "What am I looking at?", it's like all you see is dust. And that's kind of like our experience of who we are. Whereas when you start wiping away the dust, it can actually be a painful process in the beginning, because the dust comes in your face and you cough a little bit and it gets in your eyes. But then slowly you can see yourself. So it's that cleansing away of all the layers of dust that we've accumulated almost.

• 25:10Lori Gottlieb?

  Right. And when you say it's hard, it is hard. And I think sometimes people imagine that they're going to come to therapy and they're going to download the problem of the week and then they're going to leave and they don't have to do any work.

• 25:18Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 25:19Lori Gottlieb?

  You know, and you actually do have to do some work. And that's why I talk in the book about the difference between idiot compassion and wise compassion.

• 25:26Jay Shetty?

  Yes, I love that. Yeah, tell us about it, yeah.

• 25:28Lori Gottlieb?

  So idiot compassion is what our friends do. It's like, you know, someone breaks up with you and you're like, "Oh, he was a jerk", even though we know that like this has happened the last three times, because there's certain ways you behave in the relationship that lead to this outcome. Or, you know, you didn't get the promotion you wanted. And we know why that happened, because that keeps happening to you. And we say, "Oh, your boss doesn't see your talent", when we really know what's going on. But we don't want to rock the boat. We think we're being supportive, but it's not really supportive. And so, you know, it's kind of like if a fight breaks out in every bar you're going to, it might be you. But we don't say that. That's idiot compassion, right? Wise compassion is holding up that mirror, but the clear mirror, not the dusty mirror. And it's holding up that mirror and saying, "I'm going to help you to look at yourself in a way that maybe you haven't been willing or able to see."

• 26:13Lori Gottlieb?

  And I think you're gonna like what you see, because it's going to help you navigate through the world. In a much smoother way.

• 26:21Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 26:21Lori Gottlieb?

  And maybe you will have to make some changes, which people, you know, people usually come into therapy and they're like, I want things to change. And what they want to change is someone else or something else. They don't realize that they are going to have to make some changes.

• 26:33Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 26:33Lori Gottlieb?

  And I, and I want to say like, you're the protagonist in the story. You're going to have to make some changes.

• 26:37Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things I think we struggle with that is, I was talking about this with a friend the other day, we were on a walk and we were saying that she was being really vulnerable and open. She's amazing. I know she listens to the podcast. You know who you are. It's, I won't say names, but it's, it's the feeling of, we want people to be honest with us, but we struggle to be honest with people.

• 26:58Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 26:59Jay Shetty?

  So it's a weird like, it's a weird circle because we, it's like me saying, Laurie, I want you to be really honest with me about how this podcast is going. But then when my friend asked me how their podcast is going, I'm not telling them the truth.

• 27:10Lori Gottlieb?

  Yes.

• 27:11Jay Shetty?

  But I'm expecting you to tell me the truth.

• 27:12Lori Gottlieb?

  Yes.

• 27:13Jay Shetty?

  And so almost we become demanders of the truth, but not givers of. And then that continues that circle, if that makes sense. And so how, how do we actually open ourselves up to create space for friendships like that? Because I almost think in the same ways you're saying, we're creating those scenarios in our life, again, at work or in relationship.

• 27:30Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 27:31Jay Shetty?

  We are inviting idiot compassion into our life.

• 27:34Lori Gottlieb?

  That's right.

• 27:34Jay Shetty?

  Because we're not ready for it almost, right?

• 27:36Lori Gottlieb?

  Right. We have to be able to hear it. I see this so much with couples that I see. So a lot of times, um, you know, somebody will say, and I see this most typically in like a heterosexual couple where, uh, the woman says to the man, I want you to be really vulnerable with me. I want to understand your inner life. I want you to open up to me. And then he does, and he starts crying and she is frozen. You know, she's like, whoa, whoa, you know, be careful what you wish for, right? Yeah, I didn't, I didn't mean like that. Right? Or if someone's like, or if the thing that they're being truthful about is something about something going on between the two of you. And people are so afraid to share that. So maybe they'll be open about something out there. But if it's like, there's something I want to talk to you about us.

• 28:18Lori Gottlieb?

  And the person says, yeah, I want to hear, I want you to be really open and honest with me. Until you really say, I noticed this happens between us and here's something about you. And the person's like, whoa, I didn't want to hear that. Right? So we're so uncomfortable with other people's truth. You don't have to agree with somebody else's feelings, but you have to know that their feelings are valid, which doesn't mean that you have the same feelings. There's a distinction. It's almost like the difference between when somebody really wants someone to forgive them. And I always say, like, there's a woman in the book. She wants her adult children to forgive her for what she had done. They're estranged from her. They... And I said, you know what? You can't... You're asking for something called forced forgiveness,

• 29:02Lori Gottlieb?

  that people are not going to forgive you because it will make you feel better. And sometimes not forgiving is okay. It's okay if your children never forgive you. Maybe they will have compassion for you. Maybe they will see you as the mother that they want now, even though you couldn't be that then. We have to learn how to forgive ourselves. But so many times if someone says, I'm really upset about this, we say we want to hear that, but we don't know how to let it in, how to be open to it.

• 29:35Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. And how do you, in the therapy room and in your life, and when you're advising people, people live, or sometimes we assume that people live very problem-driven lives. So when they come and see you, they feel they have to start with a problem.

• 29:49Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 29:50Jay Shetty?

  Or sometimes when you see a friend, you feel like you have to share something that's going wrong for there to be a conversation. I feel like almost problems and wrongs have become better conversation starters or more, I would say, more comfortable conversation starters for people, as opposed to something positive. Do you see that a lot? Is that...

• 30:05Lori Gottlieb?

  You know what's so interesting? I think that we have this weird dichotomy where on the internet, everybody's posting all the positive things. In person, everybody's sharing all the negative things.

• 30:17Jay Shetty?

  So true, yeah.

• 30:18Lori Gottlieb?

  And so there's not that balance. I think that a lot of the time, we're kind of using our friendships to kind of download our problems, but we're not actually listening. When I was training, I was doing my internship, a clinical supervisor said, you have two ears and one mouth. There's a reason for that ratio.

• 30:37Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 30:38Lori Gottlieb?

  I think we don't know how to listen. And so sometimes we feel like when someone's telling us something that we need to problem solve for them. We don't know just how to sit with them and not fix it for them. And we don't realize too that sometimes we're helping them by helping them to hear themselves more clearly.

• 30:57Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 30:58Lori Gottlieb?

  And if we talk for them, if we talk over them, they can't hear themselves. We're talking over their internal voice.

• 31:04Jay Shetty?

  That last bit there at the end that you just mentioned is so powerful. We're talking over their internal voice. And actually, simply listening to them allows them to hear themselves.

• 31:14Lori Gottlieb?

  Yes.

• 31:14Jay Shetty?

  And you're so right. I feel like my best conversations are definitely when I can find the narrative just by being able to share and share and share. Because most of the time we share, we talk for two minutes. And the person giving the answer talks for eight. And it's almost like, you know, and now it's okay. Now, do I take that answer? They don't quite understand me. And then, right, it just kind of gets lost. So how do we shift? Is talking about our problems useful? With who is it useful? And when is it useful?

• 31:43Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah, I think you have to choose your audience. I think so many times people have had bad experiences. Let's say that growing up, they had bad experiences. And so then they end up choosing someone who will disappoint them. And then they say, see, see what happens when I'm vulnerable? See how that doesn't work? And what happens is they don't realize that they're repeating this pattern. One thing that therapy really does for people is it helps them to see you are making choices that are repeating, that are helping you to repeat a pattern that is making you unhappy, that is keeping you stuck. And people don't realize that they're doing that. There's a woman in the book who keeps hooking up with the wrong guys, right? And including, by the way, one from the waiting room. I don't mean in the waiting room. It's not that exciting in our office.

• 32:28Lori Gottlieb?

  But she meets him in the waiting room. And I know because of her pattern that, you know, this is going to be a disaster. And she keeps saying, oh, it's the guys. It's this person, it's that person. And she doesn't realize that these people are so much like the people she grew up around. And I don't mean that we're blaming people's parents because I think that most parents did their absolute best. You know, most parents really want To be a good parent, but sometimes they didn't know how or they were very limited or there was some mental, there was some mental health issues or whatever it might be. And so they couldn't give their kids that, that mirroring experience that, you know, is something that they would want in an adult relationship. And so with her, it takes her so long to realize that when she meets someone who is going to give her what she wants.

• 33:13Lori Gottlieb?

  She's like, I'm not attracted, no chemistry, right? It's almost like, like she doesn't know how to be around someone who will give her what she wants. And there's a, there's a learning process around, well, wait a minute. Just because something feels familiar, um, like the person who disappoints you doesn't mean it's right. You know, that chemistry that she kept feeling was like, oh, you feel familiar, come closer.

• 33:35Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 33:35Lori Gottlieb?

  It's like, no, the fact that you feel familiar should be a sign, like, let's try something different. Let's go into this place of unfamiliarity and it will be uncomfortable because you don't know the customs in this country. You haven't been to this country before. You're going to have to use your guidebook and, and learn your way around a little bit. But why don't you see what it's like over in that country?

• 33:56Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. What, what is your take on the elusive chemistry? When people talk about it in their partnerships and, you know, the way I've always understood it is, I've always felt that when you look at chemistry and compatibility, chemistry is something that I can feel multiple times a day with different people.

• 34:12Lori Gottlieb?

  Yep.

• 34:13Jay Shetty?

  I can feel it with the barista, I can feel it with my personal trainer. I can feel it with someone I'm just taking the train home with. Like chemistry is something I can feel over and over again. Compatibility is something I can't, it's not as easily replaceable. It took longer to build and it's something that I have with less people in the world in general.

• 34:29Lori Gottlieb?

  Yep.

• 34:30Jay Shetty?

  And, and so for me, I've, I always look at chemistry as that elusive thing because I hear the same. My friends will come back from dates and be like, Jay, like, but there was no chemistry. And I'm like, okay, well, so, so tell me about that and how you've tackled helping people. Understand chemistry and filter it better.

• 34:45Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah, so this is, I love that we're having this conversation because this is such an important part of relationship. So many times people will say, you know, they went on a first date with somebody and they're like, yeah, no, I had a really good time, but there was no chemistry. And I said, well, the having the really good time might mean that there's potential for chemistry.

• 35:05Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 35:06Lori Gottlieb?

  But what they do is because they're on the apps and they say, oh, well, there's like 10,000 other people that I can date. And they just keep recycling and recycling and recycling and they don't give something time or space to grow. And chemistry sometimes happens right away and other times it takes time to grow. So there are these surveys that were done where men and women were followed for 20 years from the moment that they went on a first date through marriages, divorces, you know, all these things. And what happened was a lot of people have revised their stories depending on what happened later. So the people who are happily married, let's say, a lot of them said, you know, well, tell us about the first date. When they're telling it now, they say, oh yeah, there was instant chemistry.

• 35:50Lori Gottlieb?

  But what they reported at the time was, yeah, I don't know, maybe I'll go on a second date. I don't know, there's not a lot here, but it builds. And so their story became there was instant chemistry.

• 35:59Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 36:00Lori Gottlieb?

  Right? Now, the people who were divorced, sometimes they would say, oh, I knew I never liked this person from the beginning. And yet at the time they reported, oh my God, we had this amazing chemistry. Right? So it's not very reliable that first time is what I'm trying to say.

• 36:11Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 36:12Lori Gottlieb?

  It takes time. So you go on a first date or a first meeting with somebody and you say, did you have a good time? Would you like to spend another hour with this person? And then see whether something develops. Sometimes it does. A lot of the times it does. A lot of the time it doesn't, but you won't know until you give it some breathing room. I should say too, that, you know, there's this saying that we marry our unfinished business. And what I mean by that is that a lot of times, if you haven't worked through some of these ways of being in relationship that didn't work very well for you, you seek them out in other people without realizing it. So the person will look very different, let's say from your mom or your dad or whomever.

• 36:52Lori Gottlieb?

  And yet, once you get to know that person, you're like, oh God, you know, like, oh wait, this feels really like, oh, I recognized that. I didn't see that at all. Right? So that's our unfinished business. So you really gotta. Work through your stuff so that you can meet the person that you're gonna have true, authentic chemistry with and not this kind of like chaotic chemistry with.

• 37:16Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, chaotic chemistry is a really nice way to put it because yeah, that's often what it is. It's like everything's chaotic, but we feel chemistry.

• 37:24Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah, well, people have so much chemistry with this person, even though I can't rely on this person or I'm always nervous, I'm always on edge, I never know where I stand with this person. But we have so much chemistry.

• 37:35Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, it's just, and it's crazy how I, I'd love to date back actually, and I'm, I'm doing some research on it right now. I'd love to hear if you already know it, but I'm, I'm really interested in where that desire for chemistry ever even sourced. Like where it started, like that want that we all have for wanting to feel chemistry. Like I wonder where there's a movie or, because I remember the first time I wanted a girlfriend was because I watched a movie, my favorite character like was attracted to this girl. And I was like, oh, maybe I should have a girlfriend. Like I didn't, you know, I was a kid and I didn't even know what that meant.

• 38:06Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 38:06Jay Shetty?

  But it was just so cleverly planted into my mind that I didn't feel complete without a partner. And, and it's fascinating to me, look at where these things started, because sometimes they're just things that you've heard over and over again in movies or books or songs and.

• 38:20Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah, I mean, I think that we, we define chemistry as sort of like this instant magical thing. Um, and, and chemistry is, is so multifactorial. It's about, you know, what is this energy that goes on between the two of you? And, and how are you together in daily life, not like on the vacation in Tahiti, right? Um, so when people think about spending their lives with somebody, it's about the day to day. It's about how do we get through the hard things? How do we listen to each other? How do we deal with, um, the places that we disagree? How do we deal with the differences between us? Cause we think of chemistry as like that overlap, like we, we both love sushi and rollerblading and this movie and that book and, you know, and, and we're vegan and, you know, whatever it is, right?

• 39:05Lori Gottlieb?

  Um, and that's not chemistry.

• 39:08Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 39:08Lori Gottlieb?

  Chemistry is how do we inhabit the same space, knowing that we're two separate human beings? And how do we stay connected even with the space between us?

• 39:17Jay Shetty?

  Hmm, yeah, absolutely. I love that. That's, yeah, that's really powerful. Tell me about the, uh, tell me about dealing with the paradox of being perceived as someone who has all the answers. But also is knowingly trying to grow in their own life. Like, how does that paradox work for you?

• 39:36Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 39:36Jay Shetty?

  When it's like, you know, the perception, not only of your clients now, like, you know, you're gonna have a TV show about the book, like, the book's been so incredibly successful, which is helping so many people. How do you deal with that personally of that feeling of, yeah, I do have answers and I do know how to help people, obviously. People are being helped, you're changing people's lives. And at the same time, you're like, yeah, but I'm still learning and I've still got to work on this and I'm still working. How do you deal with that paradox? So how do you?

• 40:00Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah, well, that's interesting because, so in the book, I follow four very different patients where I'm their therapist. And then the fifth patient in the book is me.

• 40:10Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 40:10Lori Gottlieb?

  As I go through my own therapy with my therapist. And a lot of people say, well, why, you know, are you insane? You know, why, why would you do that before, before the book came out?

• 40:20Jay Shetty?

  I think it's really smart.

• 40:21Lori Gottlieb?

  And well, the reason I did it is because I really felt like if my patients were gonna be so vulnerable, I felt it would be disingenuous to be the expert up on high, helping these people when I was going through something in my own life. And, and we all struggle. And, and so I say at the very beginning of the book that my greatest credential is that I'm a card carrying member of the human race. And it was so important for me to show how we're all more the same than we are different. And I think that that makes what people can learn from the book so much more powerful and impactful. What's interesting, though, is that even though I was very sure that I wanted to do that, once the book, so, you know, I was supposed to be writing a different book. I was supposed to be writing a book about happiness.

• 41:04Lori Gottlieb?

  And, and it just felt so empty to me because I feel like happiness is a byproduct of living our, our lives in a, in a fulfilling way, in a meaningful way, is really what we all hope for. But happiness is the goal in and of itself, felt like a recipe for disaster. So I felt like it was just, I was, I was a therapist and I was trying to write this book about happiness and it was making me depressed. Ironically, I called it the miserable depression inducing happiness book. And so I ended up not writing that book. And then I ended up writing this book and, and I thought like maybe three people would read it because everybody said, oh, you know, nobody wants to, nobody wants to read a book about therapy. And it's not, it's a book about the human condition. And so. So once the book was turned in and the sales team got it at the publisher and everybody started like passing the book around.

• 41:46Lori Gottlieb?

  And I thought, oh no, maybe like, cause I thought like three people would read it. Now I'm like, maybe 300 will read it, maybe 3,000. I didn't realize like, we're like 10 months on the New York Times list now.

• 41:54Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, congratulations.

• 41:55Lori Gottlieb?

  Well, thank you. I say that only in the context of if I had known how many people were going to be reading it. I think I would have hesitated to be so open. I let it rip. I mean, I, I do not come off well. I mean, I'm very just, here's what happened and I just let it go. And so I'm really glad that I didn't clean myself up because I think that if I had, people wouldn't have read. I think that the reason that people are responding to it and seeing themselves in these stories is because we're all so real in the book. You know, nobody's cleaned up in the book.

• 42:29Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I agree. And I think that's beautiful. And I, I do think that that message is so much stronger today as well. And I'm really glad that you didn't know how successful the book was gonna be. It's great. And it's funny though, isn't it that we feel that sometimes like you would, and I'm glad you didn't. And I know you didn't too, because you're, you're very happy sharing, but it is weird that we think, oh, if that many more people were gonna see this, I wouldn't. What is it about that? Is that just more chances and odds of people having issues with us or challenging us? So what is that that stops us from being more vulnerable the more people see us? Because I feel when you're not well-known, it's like you strive to be well-known. And then when you meet people who are well-known, they're almost striving for more privacy.

• 43:14Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 43:15Jay Shetty?

  You know, it's like, right? I'm sure you see that in your work all the time.

• 43:18Lori Gottlieb?

  I do. I think that people are afraid. I mean, I think there's shame there, you know, like that, that as a therapist, you know, letting people see me struggle.

• 43:27Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 43:28Lori Gottlieb?

  And say, you know, here, I, I, I mean, I do all the things with my therapist that my patients do with me. So, so you see me like, I want to be liked by him and I Google stalk him one night and, you know, I do all these things. And it's embarrassing, you know, to, because you think, well, people will think less of me. People will think that I'm less competent or. You know, whatever you imagine, and that's not been the case at all.

• 43:51Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 43:51Lori Gottlieb?

  You know, I think that people have said, you know, I, I, I really, I really value what you shared. I really respect you. I admire you for that. And, and I think that that translates to people out in the world being more open with each other. Because the title of the book, Maybe You Should Talk To Someone, doesn't mean we should all go to therapy necessarily. It means we all need to talk more to each other. And so the more that I can model that for people, if I can't, you know, walk the talk, if I can't do what I'm asking people to do, then there's a big gap.

• 44:25Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 44:26Lori Gottlieb?

  But if I actually do it, I think it helps people to say, oh, well, if she can do it.

• 44:30Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 44:31Lori Gottlieb?

  Then I can do it too.

• 44:32Jay Shetty?

  Absolutely, absolutely. And what have you seen of those patterns of clients that you find that you're working with that have seen the biggest transformations in their life? Are there patterns in those people that they have certain shared beliefs, values, work ethic, habits that, that helped them take whatever advice you gave or other therapists have given them that have actually changed? Like, what has been that kind of X factor that people have shared?

• 44:58Lori Gottlieb?

  I think that what happens is they release the story that they came in with. And, and sometimes it's these stories of, you know, there's the content of what they're saying. Like, here's what's going on in my relationship. Here's what's going on with my anxiety. And they have a story about it. So they think that the content is the story. But what I'm listening for is sort of the music under the lyrics. So the lyrics are, you know, I'm having panic attacks. The music is what is the underlying struggle or pattern that is getting you into this situation? And once they can see that, that can translate into everything that happens in their daily lives. But I think it takes courage. I think it takes so much courage for them to say, I'm going to make changes.

• 45:41Lori Gottlieb?

  I always like to say that insight is the booby prize of therapy, that you can have all the insight in the world. You can say, now I understand why I'm struggling in this way. Now I understand why I have these arguments with my partner. And I'll say, well, did you do something different?

• 45:55Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 45:55Lori Gottlieb?

  And they'll say, well, no, but now I understand it.

• 45:57Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 45:57Lori Gottlieb?

  Well, you're not really doing the work because you have to do something different. And I love this Viktor Frankl quote that's in the book where he had written, between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is the power to choose our response. In our response, it lies our growth and our freedom. So, yes, there might be difficult people, but then the question is, what is our role in that? So, why are we in that relationship? Or what is our role in making that relationship so chaotic, so difficult, so, there's so much tension in it? Why is that? So, what is it that we can do next time that person does that thing that triggers us? Can we have a different response?

• 46:43Lori Gottlieb?

  Because the response we keep giving is yielding the same thing. Nothing's changing. So, when we talk about insight as the booby prize of therapy, it's not just having the insight, it's you have to make changes. And you have to look, that means that you can make changes. You're not going to change the other person, but your changes can influence another person. So, it's always like doing a dance, right? And so, if you change your dance steps, that person either has to change their dance steps too, or they will fall flat on the floor, or they can leave the dance floor.

• 47:10Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 47:11Lori Gottlieb?

  But the good thing is you changed your dance steps. And that's the thing, when you say, what is the unifying thing that all of them have in common when they've made changes that have really, really transformed their lives? It's about they chose different dance steps.

• 47:27Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, that's great advice. And I love that analogy of the dance steps. I can visualize it perfectly.

• 47:32Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 47:32Jay Shetty?

  It makes so much sense. And I think one of the things that I hear in that regard that a lot of people I talk to, and I'm getting to get you to give them advice, which is fantastic, and they all listen to the podcast also, is the feeling of like, I know what I need to do to change, but I'm only going to do it for a few days. And if that person doesn't change their dance steps back in line with me right now, I cave or I let go. And sometimes it's genuine and sometimes it's not genuine. Sometimes it's like, well, if they don't change, I'm not going to change. But for a lot of friends, it's like, I'm going to change and I'm going to be the best husband in the world for three months. But if, you know, but she never changes.

• 48:12Lori Gottlieb?

  Okay, so here's the thing. You're not changing for them, you're changing for you.

• 48:16Jay Shetty?

  Hundred percent.

• 48:17Lori Gottlieb?

  And so if you stop changing in positive ways for yourself, you're letting yourself down. So you're not doing it to get a response from the other person. If you get a different response from the other person, that's great.

• 48:29Jay Shetty?

  Amazing, yeah.

• 48:30Lori Gottlieb?

  But you're doing it to get a different response from yourself. You're doing it so that you are making choices that align with how you want to be in the world. And when you make choices that align with how you want to be in the world, you will be putting a different energy out there that maybe somebody will, that will influence somebody potentially, but it will certainly influence you and the choices that you make. So you don't make a change, and it's not a contest. You know, it's not a contest of like, if I change, you need to change. Or you need to change first. I see this with couples a lot, like, like, I'll only change when you change. And it's a fight, it's a, it's a historical fight that they have with, with, from their childhood.

• 49:10Lori Gottlieb?

  Like, I'll only change, mom and dad, when you become the parent that I needed you to be back then. But you're an adult now. It's like wearing clothes that no longer fit you.

• 49:20Jay Shetty?

  Totally.

• 49:20Lori Gottlieb?

  Um, and you're still like trying to get those clothes. It's like, take off those clothes. You're free, it's, there's this analogy in the book that I love that my therapist used with me. He said, you remind me of a cartoon. And it's of a prisoner shaking the bars, desperately trying to get out. But on the right and the left, the bars are open. No bars.

• 49:39Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 49:39Lori Gottlieb?

  Right? And I was like, whoa, I am my own jailer.

• 49:43Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 49:43Lori Gottlieb?

  We sometimes are our own jailers. We think we're so trapped by everyone and everything else, but we are the ones who are keeping ourselves imprisoned. I just did a TED Talk about this. And it was, it was about the idea that, that we know on some level that the bars are open, but we don't want to step outside because if we step outside, we will have to change. And when we change, that means we have to take responsibility for our lives. And sometimes we would rather blame everything that's going wrong on somebody else.

• 50:13Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 50:14Lori Gottlieb?

  You know, if I take responsibility for my life, then I'm also responsible for what doesn't work. I can't blame my bad mood, my bad day, my bad circumstance, my not taking risks on this other person. I have to be accountable to myself for that.

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• 51:26Jay Shetty?

  And how about when people take that accountability, but instead of turning it into action, they turn it into anger on themselves?

• 51:33Lori Gottlieb?

  Right.

• 51:34Jay Shetty?

  And I feel that's half of what scares people. Like, it's easier to blame everyone else and everything else going wrong because then I at least don't hate myself.

• 51:43Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 51:43Jay Shetty?

  But it's like when you take it inward and sometimes that can launch you into action. Like, I was literally sharing that with a friend yesterday. I was saying that there was a time in my life where I could have sat around and blamed the people around me, where I knew that I had to be accountable and take action in my life and own it. And I was like, this is my life. If I'm gonna blame them, I'm gonna be sad.

• 52:00Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 52:01Jay Shetty?

  So it shifted me into action, but we find also that it can shift people into anger. How do you stop someone from getting into that space where now they see it all as their fault and now it's like they're just a bad person and it starts becoming very negative for their self-talk?

• 52:16Lori Gottlieb?

  Well, I would say two things. One is that we really talk a lot about self-compassion because self-compassion.

• 52:25Lori Gottlieb?

  Helps you see how complicated human beings are. It helps you see that I'm, yes, I'm these things and I'm also these things. And both can coexist. I'm growing here and I'm learning here and I made this regrettable choice here. But I'm gonna learn from it. And self-compassion breeds compassion for others. So then we're more compassionate out in the world because we see the complexities of other people too. So I think that when we, instead of turning that, you know, the responsibility into anger, you can say, "I'm going to be really kind to myself." Because no growth can happen without compassion. And no growth can happen without vulnerability. And you can't truly be vulnerable if you're not gonna be compassionate. Because you'll have too much of that anger coloring it.

• 53:09Lori Gottlieb?

  So I think that that's part of it. And I think the other thing too is to remember that punishing yourself with anger is going to distract you from something that we all have to face. And this is gonna sound like a non sequitur, but it's not. Which is that we're all gonna die. Okay? Life has 100% mortality rate and that's not just for other people. And so I think that sometimes we spend so much time in the anger because we don't wanna think about, "I really do have a limited time here." And we get so scared, we say, "Oh my God, what am I gonna do? I have to make my life worthwhile and I have to do all these things that I wanna do." And we get so scared of not being able to accomplish those things that we'd rather sit in the anger so we don't have to think about it.

• 53:52Jay Shetty?

  Hmm, absolutely.

• 53:54Lori Gottlieb?

  So I really want people to be aware of, there's this saying that I love, which is, "Time is the coin of life, spend it well." You're not spending it well when you're angry either at yourself or at other people. You know, anger is, there's this thing called the anger iceberg, right? And so it's like this, if you can imagine this image of like the iceberg and here's sort of the waterline, right? And so anger is on top, but underneath are our more vulnerable feelings. Sadness, anxiety, regret, you know, whatever it might be.

• 54:25Jay Shetty?

  Anger is just a disguise.

• 54:27Lori Gottlieb?

  It is.

• 54:28Jay Shetty?

  It's just the front-facing experience of that emotion.

• 54:31Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah, we're so afraid of all of our emotions, even the good ones. We're afraid of joy. There's a there's a word cherophobia, which is it's an actual thing. It's it's fear of of joy. And there are people who maybe when they were growing up, whenever they felt like good for a moment, the other shoe would drop. You know, something bad would happen. And so they got very uncomfortable because joy for them was almost like anticipatory pain, like it won't last. So I'd rather never experience joy than to know that it's going to go away. That was their mindset. It's too painful when I get my hopes up. And I think everything's going to be okay. And then boom, it goes away. Right. And so there are a lot of people who they put all these obstacles in the way of their joy, so that

• 55:14Lori Gottlieb?

  they don't have to feel joy, because joy is too painful for them.

• 55:17Jay Shetty?

  Yes, absolutely. It's so true. And it's like while you enjoy, you're only thinking about when is this

• 55:22Lori Gottlieb?

  When is it gonna end?

• 55:23Jay Shetty?

  And when you're in pain, you think about when is this gonna end? And that mindset continues. That same mindset applies to both, right? Enjoy, you're thinking, when is this gonna end? And then in pain, when is this going to end?

• 55:33Lori Gottlieb?

  Right. And people are afraid of their pain, too. And and I think there's a difference between pain and suffering. So so pain is we all feel pain, because if you're human, you're going to experience pain. But suffering is the ways that we exacerbate the pain. Right? So suffering is, I'm gonna Google stalk my boyfriend, or I'm gonna ruminate on this mistake that I made and make myself feel really bad about this thing that happened. You know, that's suffering. So so we we don't cause our own pain, but we do cause our own suffering.

• 56:05Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I think it's fascinating how we create suffering, right? We create the suffering there. What's that statement about how pain is guaranteed, but suffering is optional?

• 56:18Lori Gottlieb?

  Right.

• 56:19Jay Shetty?

  And it's something like that. It's like, that's the choice that we get to make. And one of the things I really want to dive into that with you is loss, which we were just mentioning about in the break quickly there, and grief that people experience. And I know for long parts of my life, I personally really struggled with knowing how to deal with people who'd lost someone for a long for great amount. I think I'm a lot better now, but It was something I genuinely had to work on. And it's funny, because I feel like you just expected to know how to deal with this stuff. Right? Like, there's no, like, you're expected to know how to deal with grief. You're expected to know how to deal with breakups. And not just for yourself, but for other people in your life.

• 56:58Lori Gottlieb?

  Yes.

• 56:59Jay Shetty?

  And in this chapter, you have a chapter where you're talking about John, the, the character. Tell us about that experience of dealing with grief and, and how to support someone you love.

• 57:10Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 57:10Jay Shetty?

  Through grief.

• 57:11Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah. So, you know, I think there's a lot of loss in our lives in general, but we don't, we, we minimize the loss. So there are kind of these silent losses. Just before I get into John, there's this idea about, you know, it was a breakup, but not a divorce. So in three weeks, you'll be over it, you know?

• 57:26Jay Shetty?

  Yes.

• 57:26Lori Gottlieb?

  And it's kind of like, and so we, and so we, we don't know how to support our friends if they're really experiencing the grief of the end of a relationship that where it wasn't as tangible, because, you know, it's not a divorce, for example. Or, you know, we see that with, you know, somebody had a miscarriage, but they didn't lose their eight-year-old child. And then people don't talk about the miscarriage and they're so alone in the experience. Um, because these are these silent losses, because people feel like, well, I can't really, you know, it's even just being single. Okay? So a lot of times people will talk about ambiguous grief. Ambiguous grief is the grief of being single, because you don't know when and if you're going to meet someone.

• 58:08Lori Gottlieb?

  So you're always dealing with the loss of not having a partner, and it never ends. Um, in the sense of you can't say, okay, that person's dead now. Not that that person, not that that ends, let me be clear. What I mean by that is when somebody dies, you are going through that experience of what, what they meant to you in their life. And they live on with you in a certain way, and you loved that person. Um, here you haven't met that person yet. You don't even know who the person is. So you're, you're grieving for the person you have not yet met. And people don't understand the grief of somebody who really wants to be with somebody. You know, and people will make all kinds of comments, oh, you know, you'll meet someone or, you know,

• 58:49Lori Gottlieb?

  like, oh, you have such a great life and, and they don't want to acknowledge that. Yes, that might be true. Yes, and, yes, and this other thing exists, this ambiguous grief of will I ever meet this person? Where is that person? I'm longing for this person that I don't even know what that person looks like or what their name is.

• 59:06Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 59:07Lori Gottlieb?

  Right? So I think that we need to learn how to deal with loss and how to support people in loss. In the book, we have loss in, in the sense of, you know, even just losing the hope for a better childhood. Right? So Charlotte, the woman who keeps hooking up with the wrong guys, what helps her move forward is that in order to, in order to move into adulthood, she has to let go of the hope for having had a better childhood.

• 59:37Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 59:38Lori Gottlieb?

  If you let go of that, you can move into adulthood and hold that grief and, and, and that's when things open up for you. So there's all kinds of grief that every single person experiences. In the book, we have, you know, loss of a child. We have loss of this young woman goes on her honeymoon and she's in her 30s and she comes back and she has cancer and, and eventually it turns out to be terminal cancer. And how do you deal with you have one year, they say you have like a year to 10 years to live, right? And so people would say all these things like, have you gotten a second opinion? You know, like they don't, they don't know how to sit with her and the reality of her diagnosis. You know, they'll say things like, well, my cousin took vitamin this and it worked, you know, as opposed to just this sucks or I love you so much. So there's a, there's

• 1:00:22Lori Gottlieb?

  a chapter in the book called what not to say to a dying person because she wanted to write a book about all the things that well-meaning people who loved her said. But they're so uncomfortable with talking about the truth of the loss.

• 1:00:34Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:35Lori Gottlieb?

  Right? So if somebody is experiencing a loss, I hope that we can talk about the truth of the loss with them and not try to distract them from that.

• 1:00:43Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:44Lori Gottlieb?

  Because that's what's really going to help them.

• 1:00:46Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, I love that. It's such. That's the best advice I've ever heard on loss, for sure, because yeah, everything's a distraction. We're always trying to distract people from their pain.

• 1:00:57Lori Gottlieb?

  And it's our discomfort.

• 1:00:59Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, it's our discomfort reflected onto them.

• 1:01:00Lori Gottlieb?

  Right. We say, oh, I don't want to make them uncomfortable. You're actually making them uncomfortable by not speaking about what's there in plain sight.

• 1:01:08Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:09Lori Gottlieb?

  So this thing is there in plain sight, sitting between you, and you're not talking about that. You're making them uncomfortable. And they feel like then, oh, I feel so unseen right now because you are trying to make yourself more comfortable in talking to me, and I'm not in this equation at all, and yet you're trying to comfort me.

• 1:01:25Jay Shetty?

  Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I can definitely think of there are literally people's faces flashing in front of me right now that when you're saying that, I'm like, yeah, that's exactly what they wanted to talk about. That's exactly what

• 1:01:36Lori Gottlieb?

  Right.

• 1:01:37Jay Shetty?

  what they wanted to do. But either I was too scared to go there, or if it was me, people were too scared to go there, or whichever way it was. And yeah.

• 1:01:45Lori Gottlieb?

  It's just because it's a little bit like apologies, you know, like who is the apology for? Right? Are you apologizing because you really feel, you regret that that happened and you feel sorry? Or are you apologizing because it will make the other person feel better? And I think that the more that we can have an authentic dialogue and go to the hard places, both people end up feeling seen and heard.

• 1:02:10Jay Shetty?

  Absolutely. Yeah. And that's, that's the hope that I'm hoping everyone who listens and watches this conversation is just, and reads the book a hundred percent. Like, I really hope everyone who's listening and watching today reads the book, because I feel like it's, it's exactly that. It's these subtle insights, these, it's, it's, life's all lived in these moments, these transition moments, these pain moments, these tragedy moments, like these moments. And they define our relationships, they define how much we trust others, they define who we feel loved by and who feel close to and who we feel far from. Like, for example, when you, when you, when you just want to go to the park on a sunny day and someone doesn't want to go, you don't feel offended by that. Like, it doesn't affect your relationship. But it's like when you're going through something really painful and someone doesn't at all process that.

• 1:02:55Jay Shetty?

  That feels like it can make or break a relationship often. And I see that with people deciding who they love by how they feel that person treats them when they're going through something difficult.

• 1:03:06Lori Gottlieb?

  That's right. And that's why, that's why, going back to what I said earlier about choose your audience, that, you know, you want to make sure that the person that you're opening up to is the right person.

• 1:03:16Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely. Two more questions before I ask you the final set of rounds. So two questions that I want to end on before we go into the rapid fire rounds are, how do we be a good friend to others? I know it's a very open question, but I want to leave it open so that you can answer it. How is, what is the best way to be a good friend for someone else? And the second question, how do we allow our friends to be the best for us? Because I think that's the part that we don't hear often enough, is how can we help other people help us better?

• 1:03:50Lori Gottlieb?

  Yes, yes. We can be a good friend to others by learning to speak their language. So I do that as a therapist all the time, just because somebody, this person comes in with something that's similar to what the other person came in with. They're unique individuals and you have to learn to speak someone's language. So often we try to take our language and push it onto them.

• 1:04:15Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:16Lori Gottlieb?

  And it doesn't work.

• 1:04:17Jay Shetty?

  Totally.

• 1:04:17Lori Gottlieb?

  Right? So being a good friend means I'm, I care enough about you to learn your language. And how can we help someone be a good friend to us is to be open to the differences between us. We need to let those differences be a part of our friendship to enhance our friendship. I think so many people are so worried about, you know, bringing those differences into the friendship. They think there's going to be a rift here. I believe this and you believe this and we have different ideas about this. That's okay.

• 1:04:51Jay Shetty?

  Absolutely. That's amazing. Beautiful answers. Thank you so much for, for sharing those. So we have our fill in the blanks.

• 1:04:57Lori Gottlieb?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 1:04:58Jay Shetty?

  And rapid fire rounds. These, fill in the blanks is a new segment that we've started this year since the one year anniversary of the podcast. So I share sentences and you fill in the blanks. So, therapy doesn't mean.

• 1:05:09Lori Gottlieb?

  Oh no. Okay, wait a second.

• 1:05:11Jay Shetty?

  I know. You can think about it.

• 1:05:13Lori Gottlieb?

  Okay. An instant fix.

• 1:05:15Jay Shetty?

  Okay, good. Okay. Humans are innately.

• 1:05:18Lori Gottlieb?

  Ridiculous.

• 1:05:19Jay Shetty?

  Okay. Shame and guilt are.

• 1:05:22Lori Gottlieb?

  Toxic.

• 1:05:22Jay Shetty?

  Change your nar- changing your narrative allows.

• 1:05:26Lori Gottlieb?

  Possibility.

• 1:05:27Jay Shetty?

  Suppressing your feelings only.

• 1:05:31Lori Gottlieb?

  Makes you sick.

• 1:05:33Jay Shetty?

  We suffer unnecessarily when.

• 1:05:37Lori Gottlieb?

  We get scared.

• 1:05:39Jay Shetty?

  Being vulnerable and transparent can.

• 1:05:43Lori Gottlieb?

  Transform us.

• 1:05:44Jay Shetty?

  The only way to achieve true connection is.

• 1:05:47Lori Gottlieb?

  By being courageous.

• 1:05:49Jay Shetty?

  Okay. Wonderful. Beautiful. That was great.

• 1:05:51Lori Gottlieb?

  Okay.

• 1:05:52Jay Shetty?

  Fantastic. Okay, that was very good. We often get people who want to go off on a tangent. You did not do that. I appreciate it. It's sticking within the rules.

• 1:05:59Lori Gottlieb?

  Which is why I had to think about it.

• 1:06:00Jay Shetty?

  Okay, so these are rapid fire now. Final five, which is one word to one sentence maximum.

• 1:06:06Lori Gottlieb?

  Okay.

• 1:06:06Jay Shetty?

  There are very few people that stick to it, but I have deep respect for anyone who does.

• 1:06:10Lori Gottlieb?

  If I wasn't sweating before, I'm sweating now.

• 1:06:11Jay Shetty?

  I know. Okay, fine. All right, here we go. Let's go. I've got a selection here that I can't wait to choose. So.

• 1:06:20Jay Shetty?

  What question do you wish people would ask you more often?

• 1:06:25Lori Gottlieb?

  How do you feel?

• 1:06:26Jay Shetty?

  Really? Interesting. How do you feel?

• 1:06:30Lori Gottlieb?

  Right now.

• 1:06:31Jay Shetty?

  I'm gonna start the trend.

• 1:06:31Lori Gottlieb?

  Right now, I feel, I feel very joyful.

• 1:06:34Jay Shetty?

  You're very kind. I appreciate that. That's cool. That's interesting. I'm gonna go off on a tangent. Okay.

• 1:06:39Lori Gottlieb?

  Because I have so much to say about that, actually.

• 1:06:41Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, let's go. Okay, so let's do it. Yeah. I felt we needed to do. How? I feel like people don't ask that. Or when they do ask that, they're expecting you to say, okay, good, bad.

• 1:06:51Lori Gottlieb?

  Right.

• 1:06:51Jay Shetty?

  Like, you know, it's like, we give such bad answers to that question. Like, when someone gives me an interesting answer to that question, I'm almost more alert.

• 1:06:59Lori Gottlieb?

  Yes. Yes. Yes. So it's not, so it's, it's, I don't mean, how do you feel? Like, oh, hey, how you doing? I mean, I actually want people to be curious. And so I think people are so curious about like, what's going on? How's that project going? What's going on with the? You know, it's sort of like all this like content level things, right? I want to get in the process with people in the right context.

• 1:07:20Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:07:21Lori Gottlieb?

  So, you know, I, I think that sometimes we forget to ask the people that we care about how they feel.

• 1:07:27Jay Shetty?

  I love that. I think that's really cool. Yeah, I misunderstood it when you said it the first time, so I'm glad.

• 1:07:31Lori Gottlieb?

  Instead of like, you know, how was your, how are you feeling?

• 1:07:35Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, and it's hard to ask that and answer that.

• 1:07:38Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:38Jay Shetty?

  Because when you ask that, you've got to be really ready to listen and receive.

• 1:07:41Lori Gottlieb?

  Yes.

• 1:07:42Jay Shetty?

  And the person who's going to answer is going to have to try to not give you the two-minute answer, so.

• 1:07:47Lori Gottlieb?

  Well, also, a lot of times when people ask that, they have an acceptable range of answers. You know, you can feel the ways that are acceptable to me,

• 1:07:58Lori Gottlieb?

  which is very different from, you know, they might throw you a curveball. And those curveballs are where your relationship deepens.

• 1:08:04Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely. All right, question number three. When was the last time you felt heard and understood and not in a therapy session?

• 1:08:12Lori Gottlieb?

  Right here.

• 1:08:13Jay Shetty?

  Oh, thank you. It's very kind. All right. Question number four, I want to, you're too good at this, so I need to try and find something that, not, I mean, I want you to be good at it, but, okay, this one I really like. If you could create a law that everyone had to follow in the world, what would it be?

• 1:08:29Lori Gottlieb?

  Kindness.

• 1:08:30Jay Shetty?

  And what would that practice be? Like, if you had to simplify kindness into that one habit or one practice or one thing that everyone had to do every day as the law, what would it be?

• 1:08:38Lori Gottlieb?

  Before you speak, ask yourself, how will this land on the other person?

• 1:08:44Jay Shetty?

  Hmm, it's a great rule. Yeah, you would change everything.

• 1:08:47Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:47Jay Shetty?

  You probably wouldn't say much.

• 1:08:50Lori Gottlieb?

  I think you would.

• 1:08:50Jay Shetty?

  You think you would?

• 1:08:51Lori Gottlieb?

  I think you would. I think that we know how to be kind. I think that, you know, all of these obstacles get in the way. But I think that when we take away, you know, all of the noise in our heads, and there's so much noise, we innately know how to be kind. You know, is it, is it kind? Is it true? And is it helpful? If it meets those three criteria, then go ahead and say it. And once you practice that, you don't, you don't need to premeditate so much. You will, you will organically start to just speak that way to other people.

• 1:09:23Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, absolutely. In the Bhagavad Gita, the book from India, it's called The Four Austerities of Speech. So it's, is it true? Is it beneficial to all? This is my favorite one. Can it be said in a way that doesn't agitate the mind of others?

• 1:09:37Lori Gottlieb?

  Oh.

• 1:09:37Jay Shetty?

  Right, like, you know, it's like that, that delivery point of like, how can you say it in a way that isn't going to agitate someone's mind? And then the fourth one is, is it based on spiritual text and foundational text? Okay, fifth and final question for you. What is the biggest lesson you've learned in the last 12 months?

• 1:09:55Lori Gottlieb?

  That.

• 1:09:57Lori Gottlieb?

  People really want to be open. And I think that I knew that as a therapist, but I didn't realize, you know, I thought, well, maybe in these little clusters of people who go to therapy, those are the people who want to be open. Everybody wants to tell their story and everybody has a story. People think, oh, well, my story isn't that interesting or my story is kind of boring. No, people's stories are fascinating. And I've gone all over the country in the last, what, since last April, when the book came out. And I, people are telling their stories and every single one is fascinating and, and they are realizing that their story has value.

• 1:10:36Jay Shetty?

  Yeah. And often those silent or unheard stories are the stories that are more interesting.

• 1:10:40Lori Gottlieb?

  Yes.

• 1:10:41Jay Shetty?

  We were just talking about that now. Like, I know people that are just in my vicinity that are fascinating lives and stories that may never become a movie or may never become a book, but they're just fascinating stories of resilience and human connection and breakthrough power and all the rest of it. And so.

• 1:10:56Lori Gottlieb?

  And I think we learn so much from other people's stories. And that's why in the book, so many people have said, oh, I, I learned a lot about myself, even though they're not in the book. Because it's so different. If I say to you, Jay, if I say, you know, you're like this, or you do this, you'd say, well, no, I'm not. I don't do that. That's our response. But if you see someone else do it, you can say, oh, I'm kind of like that. Or I do that sometimes.

• 1:11:18Jay Shetty?

  Totally.

• 1:11:19Lori Gottlieb?

  It's, it's very non-threatening to see yourself in other people's stories, which is why I think we all need to be sharing our stories more.

• 1:11:25Jay Shetty?

  Absolutely. I agree. And thank you for encouraging people to do that. Laurie, you're amazing. Everyone, this is Laurie Gottlieb. Maybe you should talk to someone. Go and grab a copy of the book. I promise you, it's a fun read, it's entertaining, and as you've seen, it's deeply insightful and empowering as well. Please, please, please go and grab a copy. Like I said, we will put the link to the Amazon order in the captions and the comments. Laurie, this has been amazing. Like, speaking to you has been phenomenal. To sit with you in a sauna slash not sauna.

• 1:11:55Lori Gottlieb?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:56Jay Shetty?

  And to have this conversation. Well, but I, I just genuinely want to say, like, I, I love what you're doing. I love the way you're presenting it. I think it's exactly the language and the storytelling that the world needs today. And I'm so happy that it's had so much incredible success and I'm so grateful to meet you today.

• 1:12:12Lori Gottlieb?

  Oh, I'm so grateful for our conversation.

• 1:12:14Jay Shetty?

  Thank you. I'm really excited for you all to read this. Everyone, go and follow Laurie across social media. Where are the best places for people to find you?

• 1:12:21Lori Gottlieb?

  They can find me on Twitter at LoriGotleb1. They can find me on Instagram at LoriGotleb underscore author. They can find me on my website, LoriGotleb.com. They can read my Dear Therapist column. It comes out every Monday in The Atlantic. They can read the book.

• 1:12:36Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, perfect. Go and follow her on all of the social media platforms and I'll be tagging her in all of these posts. If there's anything that Lori said that really stood out to you, that really resonated, that really connected, please, please, please tag me and Lori on Instagram and share it so that I love seeing what connects with you. Like, it means a lot to me because it helps me ask better questions for you. It helps me understand our guests better for you as well. So please do that. Thank you for watching or listening. See you soon.

• 1:13:20Speaker 02

  Mr. President, my company told me of the explosion on our rig on October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me.

• 1:13:29Speaker 03

  Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess and Digger's gonna dig us up. From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 1:13:36Speaker 04

  What would happen if I stopped doing it? You stall, you freeze in there, that's what.

• 1:13:40Speaker 03

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 1:13:44Speaker 04

  I'm not the first then.

• 1:13:45Speaker 03

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Not a minute without parent.