#127: Amelia Boone on Beating 99% of Men and Suffering for a High-Performance Life

Amelia Boone (@ameliaboone https://twitter.com/ameliaboone) has been called the Michael Jordan of obstacle course racing (OCR). This episode explores her training, nutrition, rehab, "pre-hab", and more. In a sense, Amelia is more impressive than MJ, as she conquered OCR while building a stellar full-time career in law. Since the sport's inception, she's amassed more than 30 victories and 50 podiums. In the 2012 World's Toughest Mudder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tough_Mudder competition, which lasted 24 hours, she finished 2nd OVERALL out of 1,000+ competitors. This was ahead of every male except the winner, who beat her by just 8 minutes. Her major victories include the Spartan Race World Championship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartan_race (2013), Spartan Race Series Point Champion (2013 and 2015), and she is the only three-time winner of the World's Toughest Mudder (2012, 2014 and 2015). She won the 2014 WTM eight weeks after knee surgery. Amelia is also a three-time finisher of the Death Race, and dabbles in ultra-running in all of her spare time. Phew... I'm exhausted just writing this intro, but Amelia can do it all while eating Pop-Tarts for breakfast (seriously). Show notes and links for this episode can be found at www.fourhourworkweek.com/podcast http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/podcast. This podcast is brought to you by 99Designs http://99designs.com/tim, the world's largest marketplace of graphic designers. I have used them for years to create some amazing designs. When your business needs a logo, website design, business card, or anything you can imagine, check out 99Designs. I used them to rapid prototype the cover http://99designs.com/tim for The 4-Hour Body, and I've also had them help with display advertising and illustrations. If you want a more personalized approach, I recommend their 1-on-1 service http://99designs.com/tim. You get original designs from designers around the world. The best part? You provide your feedback, and then you end up with a product that you're happy with or your money back. Click this link http://www.99designs.com/tim and get a free $99 upgrade. Give it a test run. This podcast is also brought to you by Wealthfront https://wealthfront.com/tim. Wealthfront is a massively disruptive (in a good way) set-it-and-forget-it investing service, led by technologists from places like Apple and world-famous investors. It has exploded in popularity in the last 2 years and now has more than $2.5B under management. In fact, some of my good investor friends in Silicon Valley have millions of their own money in Wealthfront. Why? Because you can get services previously limited to the ultra-wealthy and only pay pennies on the dollar for them, and it's all through smarter software instead of retail locations and bloated sales teams. Check out wealthfront.com/tim http://wealthfront.com/tim, take their risk assessment quiz, which only takes 2-5 minutes, and they'll show you—for free–exactly the portfolio they'd put you in. If you want to just take their advice and do it yourself, you can. Or, as I would, you can set it and forget it. Well worth a few minutes: wealthfront.com/tim http://wealthfront.com/tim. Enjoy!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start to shake. Can I answer your personal question?

• 0:08Speaker 01

  Well, we're seeing appropriate timing.

• 0:12Speaker 00

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 0:23Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Wealthfront, and this is a very unique sponsor. Wealthfront is a massively disruptive, in a good way, set it and forget it investing service, led by technologists from places like Apple and world famous investors. It has exploded in popularity in the last two years, and they now have more than $2.5 billion under management. In fact, some of my very good friends, investors in Silicon Valley, have millions of their own money in Wealthfront. So the question is, why? Why is it so popular? Why is it unique? Because you can get services previously reserved for the ultra wealthy, but only pay pennies on the dollar for them. And this is because they use smarter software instead of retail locations, bloated sales teams, etc. And I'll come back to that in a second. I suggest you check out wealthfront.com/tim.

• 1:08Tim Ferriss?

  Take the risk assessment quiz, which only takes two to five minutes, and they'll show you for free exactly the portfolio they'd put you in. And if you just want to take their advice, run with it, do it yourself, you can do that. Or, as I would, you can set it and forget it. And here's why. The value of Wealthfront is in the automation of habits and strategies that investors should be using on a regular basis but normally aren't. Great investing is a marathon, not a sprint, and little things that you may or may not be familiar with, like automatic tax loss harvesting, rebalancing your portfolio across more than 10 asset classes, and dividend reinvestment add up to very large amounts of money over longer periods of time. Wealthfront, as I mentioned, since it's using software instead of retail locations, etc.,

• 1:50Tim Ferriss?

  can offer all of this at low costs that were previously completely impossible. Right off the bat, you never pay commissions or account fees. For everything, they charge 0.25% per year on assets above the first 15,000, which is managed for free if you use my link, wealthfront.com/tim. That is less than $5 a month to invest $830,000. ...account, for instance. Now, normally, when I have a sponsor on the show, it's because I use them and recommend them. In this case, it's a little different. I don't use Wealthfront yet because I'm not allowed to. Here's the deal. They wanted to sponsor this podcast, but because of SEC regulations, companies that invest your money are not allowed to use client testimonials. So I couldn't be a user and have them on the podcast.

• 2:32Tim Ferriss?

  But I've been so impressed by Wealthfront that I've invested a significant amount of my own money, at least for me, in the team and the company itself. So I am an investor and hope to soon use it as a client. Now, back to the recommendation. As a Tim Ferriss Show listener, you'll get $15,000 managed for free if you decide to open an account. But just start with seeing the portfolio that they would suggest for you. Take two minutes, fill out their questionnaire at wealthfront.com/tim. It's fast, it's free. There's no downside that I can think of. Now, I do have to read a mandatory disclaimer. Wealthfront, Inc. is an SEC-registered investment advisor. Investing in securities involves risks, and there's the possibility of losing money. Past performance is no guarantee of future results. Please visit wealthfront.com to read their full disclosure. So, check it out, guys.

• 3:17Tim Ferriss?

  This is one of the hottest, most innovative companies coming out of Silicon Valley, and they're killing it. They've become massively popular. Just take a look, see what portfolio they would create for you, and you can use that information however you want. Wealthfront.com/tim. This episode is brought to you by 99designs. 99designs is a great partner for creating and growing your business. It's a one-stop shop for all of your graphic design needs, whether that's a logo, website, business card, or anything else. I use 99designs to get book cover prototypes for The Four Hour Body, which went on to become a number-one New York Times bestseller. I also use them for banner ads, illustrations, and other things.

• 3:57Tim Ferriss?

  With 99designs, designers around the world compete to create the best design for you. You give feedback and then pick your favorite. You end up happy, or you get your money back. It's very simple. You can check out a few of my own designs and those of yours, meaning Tim Ferriss Show listeners, at 99designs.com/tim. And right now, my listeners, you guys, will get a free $99 upgrade on your first design. That's 99designs.com/tim. Check it out.

• 4:29Tim Ferriss?

  Millie Boone has been called the Michael Jordan of obstacle course racing. Since the sport's inception, she's amassed, she's laughing, more than 30 victories and 50 podiums. Her major victories include the Spartan Race World Championship 2003, Spartan Race Series Point Champion 2013 and 2015, and she's the only three-time winner of the World's Toughest Mudder 2012, 14, and 15. She's also a three-time finisher of the Death Race and dabbles in ultra running in all of her spare time, which I'm sure is massive, and has a flourishing and high-velocity career to boot. Millie, welcome to the show.

• 5:05Speaker 03

  Thank you. It's fun of me.

• 5:07Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I appreciate you taking the time. And I thought we could start with a photo. So I was doing research for this and went to your website, which is millieboonracing.com. And can you describe the photo that takes up most of the real estate on that page?

• 5:26Speaker 03

  Well, so the website needs a bit of updating. I'm not a great website person, so if you know, if anybody wants to volunteer, be my guest. But it's a picture of me, I'm in the middle of barbed wire, and I'm crawling on my hands and knees, and I'm just kind of looking around semi-perplexed. And to me, that just kind of encapsulates everything that I do. I'm bleeding from, you know, my knees, my elbows, and it's just crawling through the mud, having a good time.

• 5:58Tim Ferriss?

  A microcosm of the face of obstacle course racing.

• 6:02Speaker 03

  Exactly. It's not pretty.

• 6:04Tim Ferriss?

  And we met through Scott Caneely, who is putting together, may be finished by the time, people see this and available, Rise of the Suffer Fests. So Suffer Fest, you mentioned the blood, you mentioned the dirt, the barbed wire. Maybe we can explain to people who are unfamiliar what obstacle course racing is with the example of the World's Toughest Mudder. Could you describe what on earth that is?

• 6:31Speaker 03

  Well, so that's kind of like the extreme of obstacle course racing. Right. But in general, I mean, I think people have been familiar with Spartan races with tough mudders. You see people jumping over fire and crawling under barbed wire and it's just, you know, you're running along and you have a wall to climb and you're, you know, jumping through mud and you're using everything that you have. Like, it's just completely physical experience. But, so I got involved back in 2011 when I ran a tough mudder with friends and then signed up for, there was this race that was announced called World's Toughest

• 7:10Speaker 03

  Mudder and they're like, "You for 24 hours are gonna run as many laps of a course, a tough mudder course, as you can." And it's gonna be in December in New Jersey. And so... Sounds balmy. It was balmy. I was like, "Hmm, man, I can't think of anywhere I'd rather go than New Jersey in December." And so a bunch of us signed, I think a thousand people signed up for this, like, and nobody had any idea what they were getting into, you know? We'd all run like a tough mudder or run a Spartan race. But nobody had ever really done it for 24 hours. So, we went out that day and people were trying to figure out, like, how

• 7:55Speaker 03

  do you stay warm for 24 hours when you're in and out of water? And, you know, and it's December and it's New Jersey. So we decided that we would wear wetsuits, or that wetsuits would be the way, and to stay warm. And other people, former triathletes were like, "Oh, there's no way you can run for 24 hours in a wetsuit. You'll die." You know, like, how your thermoregulation will be all off, or whatever. But we did, and, and like halfway through, so we all go out and it's like 30 degrees outside in New Jersey. After the first lap, there are about a thousand people that would start. I'd say maybe 850 people dropped out. After the first lap? First lap, like...

• 8:39Speaker 03

  Like done.

• 8:39Tim Ferriss?

  And this is what, like an hour, like a few hours into it?

• 8:42Speaker 03

  Probably, probably like an hour and a half. And I remember going back in my tent and like just shivering uncontrollably being like, what am I doing? Like, what, what is going on here? You know? Um, you like would walk past like the, the med tents and there were just people in there like laying on cots. They were using like saline bags to like warm saline to put under people's arms, like, uh, like armpits to keep them warm. And, um, so a few of us decided to keep that we were gonna keep going. Um, and I think by, you know, the night descended on us, it was like 2am. We were like walking through the wa- wading through water and like there was ice forming. We're like,

• 9:26Speaker 03

  you know, breaking holes in the ice. And I'm sitting here being like, what am I doing? Like, what am I doing? But at the same time, it's having so much fun. Um, and out of a thousand people that started that race, 12 finished.

• 9:42Speaker 03

  And I was one of two women. Um, and, uh, so that was, that was the start of it all. And I, uh, for some unknown reason, I remember when I finished that race 24 hours later, I was like, never again, never again. And then like two weeks later, I'm like, sign me up. What's, what's next? Sign me up. So.

• 10:01Tim Ferriss?

  And the, the drive to do this type of thing, uh, there's so many different approaches I could take to try to dissect this, but are your parents very surprised, not surprised at all, or somewhere in between?

• 10:15Speaker 03

  Um, I would say somewhere in between because, so I've always been like the high achiever type A, you know? Um, you know, I, I want to be at the top of my class. I want to be, you know, like graduating summa cum laude and going to law school and everything like that. So I think the.

• 10:33Tim Ferriss?

  I read that one of your law school classmates said that you would find a way to be competitive or to win in anything, if it were folding laundry or otherwise.

• 10:43Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like if, if I was like in law school, the extent of like my exercise was like getting on the elliptical, you know, like everybody else. And I would like find a way to compete next, on the person like on the elliptical next to me. Um, and those are the days. Um, but so I think the drive and the determination like that doesn't phase, you know, like my parents like par for the course. Um, but in terms of like how it manifested itself, cause I've always been kind of like a creature of routine and like, I don't like surprises and I want to be able to like, like plan everything and know everything. And with obstacle course racing, it's so unknown when you go out there. Like for the most part, um, when it first started, like they won't even show you, you wouldn't see a

• 11:26Speaker 03

  course map. So you wouldn't know what was out there. And so I think that part, they're kind of like, wow. Or like when I would sign up for the death race and they would be like 72 hours in the woods and you don't know what you're going to be doing, but have at it. And so that was very kind of like atypical personality for me.

• 11:42Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, where did you grow up?

• 11:45Speaker 03

  I grew up, um, in Portland, Oregon.

• 11:47Tim Ferriss?

  In Portland. And what did your parents do growing up?

• 11:50Speaker 03

  Um, so my dad, uh, was an insurance like adjuster and, uh, my mom was, uh, an environmental consultant.

• 12:00Tim Ferriss?

  Where did the competitive edge come from?

• 12:04Speaker 03

  I've not, it's funny. It's like they have no idea. And like I have, I think it's gotta be innate to be totally honest, because my parents were always like, you can get seized, that's fine. Or you can, you can play this sport, or you don't have to play this sport, or as long as you're happy, just do what makes you happy. And so there was-

• 12:22Tim Ferriss?

  Sounds more Portland.

• 12:24Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. Right? It was never, it was never like, if you think of like sage parents, I was like the opposite of that. Um, so they were always telling me to like calm down and take a break, but instead I just-

• 12:38Tim Ferriss?

  That worked well.

• 12:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:41Tim Ferriss?

  Do you have siblings?

• 12:42Speaker 03

  I do. I have an older sister.

• 12:44Tim Ferriss?

  Older sister?

• 12:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:45Tim Ferriss?

  Is she also competitively driven like yourself?

• 12:48Speaker 03

  I mean, we're pretty much like in terms of personalities, like opposites.

• 12:52Tim Ferriss?

  Polar opposites.

• 12:53Speaker 03

  Polar opposites. She's extremely successful, but she came about it from a very like, you know, way more laid back and you know. Like low key approach.

• 13:02Tim Ferriss?

  What did you want to be when you were a kid? What did you want to be when you grew up?

• 13:07Speaker 03

  I wanted to be a lawyer when I grew up.

• 13:10Tim Ferriss?

  And you nailed it.

• 13:11Speaker 03

  I nailed it. I was one of those people that I was like, if I set my mind to something, then I'm going to do it. So I would for lunch every day. When I was like at home during the summer, my mom and I would always watch Perry Mason. And I was like, man, Perry Mason, like being an attorney, he gets the bad guy to confess every single episode. That's gotta be cool.

• 13:37Tim Ferriss?

  Perry Mason's great. I remember Perry Mason.

• 13:39Speaker 03

  So then I went to law school and I realized that's not actually what happens. And yeah.

• 13:44Tim Ferriss?

  So you're more, you were more Perry Mason than a Matlock person?

• 13:48Speaker 03

  Yes, yes, I was a Perry Mason person.

• 13:50Tim Ferriss?

  So the, so you decide you want to be a lawyer? And did that change that waiver or did that stick with you all the way up until the point that you became a lawyer?

• 14:01Speaker 03

  I think it, it pretty much, you know, I kind of thought of different things in college. I really got, um, I really fell in love with anthropology and, um, primates. And so like, you know, I really love studying, um, yeah, monkeys. And I thought for a part of me, I'm like, maybe I should go to Madagascar and hang out with the lemurs.

• 14:24Speaker 03

  Or I could go get a law degree. Um, so I, I double majored in anthropology and political science and then decided to take the safe route. And, uh, go with a lot of great.

• 14:34Tim Ferriss?

  And that was U. Washington?

• 14:36Speaker 03

  Uh, Washington University.

• 14:37Tim Ferriss?

  Washington University. That's right. And, uh, what did you do athletically in high school or college?

• 14:47Speaker 03

  So growing up, I was kind of like a, I would say like a jack of all trades athlete in that I played. I was always on like a club team, like ASA softball or club soccer, um, you know, traveling basketball. And so I played year round, um, and I was always good. I was on like the competitive, the highest level teams. I was never like a super standout all star in any one single sport. Um, so you know, I played year round and I would shuttle back and forth from practice to practice um throughout middle school and then high school, but I started like paring that down. And I actually, as high school progressed, I got more and more into musical theater and show choir and singing. And I kind of gave up sports and athletics. So in

• 15:30Speaker 03

  college, I actually sang in an acapella group, but I no sports.

• 15:34Tim Ferriss?

  No sports in college?

• 15:35Speaker 03

  No sports.

• 15:36Tim Ferriss?

  Recreationally, were you a runner?

• 15:38Speaker 03

  I would go out and run to like stay in shape, but running in St. Louis kind of sucked. So I mean, I just like, it was either like hot and muggy or like freezing cold. Um, so yeah, I didn't really, didn't really do anything.

• 15:53Tim Ferriss?

  Let's, so I'm gonna jump around a little bit like memento, but if we were to look at say, the world's toughest mudder.

• 16:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:02Tim Ferriss?

  What do your routines look like? You said you're a creature of habit, as am I, the hours before the competition. Let's just say like the day of, what are your routines?

• 16:14Speaker 03

  Um, so I always get up like super early before, well, I get up super early in general every morning.

• 16:21Tim Ferriss?

  What's super early?

• 16:23Speaker 03

  So my alarm typically goes off like right around 4am.

• 16:29Tim Ferriss?

  That's why you didn't flinch when I was, we were talking about Jaco Willink, the SEAL commander. I'm like, and he wakes up at four, zero response. I'm like, uh oh, another one. Here we are.

• 16:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, like 4am. Um, and uh, so actually on race days, it's almost like I sleep in a little bit, but.

• 16:50Tim Ferriss?

  When do, when do the races start typically?

• 16:52Speaker 03

  Um, they generally will start, World's Toughest Mudder is a little bit different. That one starts at two in the afternoon now, but um, like just a regular obstacle race would generally be like 7:30 is the.

• 17:03Tim Ferriss?

  I got it. So that starts at 2pm. So let's use that example. You wake up at four.

• 17:08Speaker 03

  Oh yeah. Then I drive myself crazy for the next however many hours, twiddling my thumbs.

• 17:13Tim Ferriss?

  What, what other type of body prep uh, or mental prep do you do?

• 17:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, I generally use the distraction technique. So I try to not think about really because I can sit there and make myself miserable over and over like, like picturing the race or whatever. But I find it helpful. Actually, I actually do a lot of work in the mornings before races. So I'll catch up on emails. I'll do things from like my attorney life. And then in terms of like body prep, I, you know, I do a lot of like foam rolling, mobility, things like that. The older I get, the more I realize like I can't just like jump out of bed in the morning and like, you know, be spry as a chicken. So.

• 18:01Tim Ferriss?

  You're thirty two. Is that right? Thirty two?

• 18:03Speaker 03

  Thirty two.

• 18:03Tim Ferriss?

  Thirty two. I would imagine you still have a couple of good years left in you.

• 18:08Speaker 03

  But the

• 18:12Tim Ferriss?

  The mobility work that you do, what, what, what does that, what does that actually look like? And in detail?

• 18:17Speaker 03

  Um, so I generally carry like an arsenal of every single like from a golf ball, a lacrosse ball, a softball, a foam roller. And so I'm really focused on loosening up hips, loosening up hamstrings. And every single different little torture device has, you know, it's the golf ball is for the foot. The lacrosse ball works well on the glutes, you know, the softball is great for the hamstrings. So I'm just, you know, getting the muscles kind of warmed up and loosened and prepped. And I do, I actually, from a lot of various nagging injuries that I've always had, I have like little physical therapy routines

• 18:59Speaker 03

  that I always do to, you know, like, to get your glutes activated and things like

• 19:05Tim Ferriss?

  What type of movements do you do for glute activation?

• 19:08Speaker 03

  Oh, there's this fantastic exercise called Jane Fonda's that if anybody's ever been

• 19:13Tim Ferriss?

  Are these for like glute mean?

• 19:14Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, yeah. Where you're sitting there and you're like, man, I should really have leg warmers on right now.

• 19:20Tim Ferriss?

  So you're talking about, is this like the bent leg, sort of the reverse thigh master?

• 19:26Speaker 03

  Pretty much. Yeah. It's the reverse thigh master.

• 19:28Tim Ferriss?

  On your side.

• 19:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like variation, like doing fire hydrants like that too, you know, like a dog lifting his legs. There's all super sexy things that people like. Like if you do them in a gym, people are like, oh God, there's that girl.

• 19:43Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I tell you, I think that you probably get more attention doing fire hydrants than I do. At least unless I'm in a gym in the Castro, which it might be a similar experience.

• 19:55Tim Ferriss?

  And do you use any other modalities for prep? Do you use any STEM? Do you use anything like that pre-race? Or is that set aside for other, other purposes?

• 20:05Speaker 03

  Pre-race, not so much, no. That's more like recovery, like recovery, all like compression boots and STEM.

• 20:14Tim Ferriss?

  Now, are compression boots the compression socks? Or are these actual boots?

• 20:18Speaker 03

  The boots that inflate, you know?

• 20:21Tim Ferriss?

  Ah, right.

• 20:21Speaker 03

  The air pressure chambers that, you know, like, kind of like flush out, supposedly flush out lactic acid.

• 20:29Tim Ferriss?

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:30Speaker 03

  So.

• 20:31Tim Ferriss?

  That's, and that's post-race?

• 20:33Speaker 03

  That would be post-race, yeah.

• 20:34Tim Ferriss?

  So, well, let's talk about post-race then. So in terms of facilitating recovery, so you finish the race.

• 20:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:40Tim Ferriss?

  And is it true that you have not slept for days on end after races? Or is that an exaggeration?

• 20:47Speaker 03

  No, it is true. So any long race that I've done, like World's toughest motor is a 24 hour race. I've done other races that are longer, 48, that are 60 hours. And I feel like it's, I can't sleep afterwards. And you feel like you should be able to. You're like, wow, I was just up for three days straight, running around in the woods. But my mind, your body is so physically exhausted, but my mind is still on so much, like on overdrive, that I just, I can't. So, I mean, for instance, this year, after World's toughest motor, we all, there was a group of us staying in a house, sat around, we're drinking beers, watching football game. And I was like, man, I shouldn't like really be getting drunk right now or something like that.

• 21:32Speaker 03

  Because like I'm drinking, I've been running around in a wet suit all night long. I'm like, I don't feel anything. Like I don't feel any effects of the booze or anything like that. I was like, it just must be this adrenaline still pumping through me.

• 21:44Tim Ferriss?

  Did other people have the same, similar experience? Or is that unique to you?

• 21:49Speaker 03

  I think, no, because everyone else just kind of passed out and went to bed.

• 21:55Speaker 03

  So I was like, hey, guys, let's say, hey, okay, everyone's asleep right now. Cool.

• 22:00Tim Ferriss?

  And when you cross the finish line, as such, you're done.

• 22:07Tim Ferriss?

  What type of recovery starts? What are the, what are the actions that you take in the hours following the race?

• 22:12Speaker 03

  So I think one of the most important things that people should do that they don't is you have to stay moving. People want to finish a race and especially a long one and just like lay on a couch or go to sleep. It is the worst thing you can do because you're going to wake up and like not be able to move anything. So I generally try and stay walking. I try and stay active.

• 22:36Speaker 03

  You know, I will hop again on like a foam roll or something like that and try, you don't want to be too aggressive afterwards. Like you're not going to like hop on a softball and roll out your glutes because like that's going to hurt really bad. But then just, just try and stay active and that is in like the next day too, you know, like gentle movement and things like that.

• 22:58Tim Ferriss?

  Do you, do you, are you a proponent of ice, ice baths, anything like that or not?

• 23:04Speaker 03

  If I can't, so I mean, I'm not a scientist, whatever. I, all I know is what works for me. People have different opinions. If I can get into an ice bath, I will, but it needs to be like immediately. So there have been races where there's like a lake right next to me and I'm like, if it's cold enough, then I'll just go jump in the lake and kind of use that as an ice bath. But if you're waiting like four or five hours, I don't really think it's going to end up helping you in the end.

• 23:32Tim Ferriss?

  And I want you to correct me if I'm wrong. 2012, World's toughest mudder. How did you place?

• 23:41Speaker 03

  I won for females, but I was second overall in 2012.

• 23:45Tim Ferriss?

  Second place overall?

• 23:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:47Tim Ferriss?

  How did that feel?

• 23:49Speaker 03

  So it was a really interesting race.

• 23:52Tim Ferriss?

  How many competitors?

• 23:54Speaker 03

  This was again, there were about 1,200 people, I believe, is generally every year. So there are about 1,200 people. It was once, this one, they moved it to November, so it was supposedly a tiny bit warmer, but actually it wasn't. It was actually colder in 2012 than it was in 2011. And I guess I didn't realize, I knew I was winning for women. And at this point, we were about 24 hours or getting close to the end. And I was about 80 some odd miles in. And as on the last lap, they're like, okay, well, you've won for women, but the guy that's winning is like nine minutes ahead of you. So we're on this last lap, you know, going, we'll end up with 90 miles.

• 24:38Speaker 03

  And there are all these people from Tough Mudder headquarters and like all these competitors just like yelling at me, willing me to go on because all they want me to do is to win overall, you know? And you're so tired at that point and like so kind of delirious that I guess I didn't even realize like the import of that situation of like how massive that would have been.

• 25:04Speaker 03

  Cause I was just like, leave me alone. I hurt. I'm tired.

• 25:07Tim Ferriss?

  I hear you.

• 25:08Speaker 03

  Freezing. Like I'm covered in like 10 like millimeters of neoprene, like I'm just, you know? And I'm like, I get it. I'm trying to move faster. My body won't let me. But yeah, so I ended up finishing about nine minutes behind the male overall winner. And yeah, so it was pretty, it didn't really hit me until like a day or two later where I was like, oh, I was that close. Oh, okay.

• 25:32Tim Ferriss?

  So did you not, did you feel pride about finishing second overall? Or were you just, were you more disappointed that you didn't finish first overall?

• 25:41Speaker 03

  No, no, no. I completely felt pride and it's actually, it's one of these things now that when I race, it's almost, I kind of look at the standings. It's cool to win, you know, as a, as a female, you know, be like, oh, I'm, I'm the female winner. But I more look of like, I have a consistent goal of trying to place like top 10 overall. You know, I want to be, I don't care sex, gender, like I just want to be, I want to, you know, compete to the best, you know, overall, so.

• 26:11Tim Ferriss?

  And what, the next female finisher, what place was she?

• 26:15Speaker 03

  She actually, in 2012, she was third.

• 26:18Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, no kidding?

• 26:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:19Tim Ferriss?

  Wow.

• 26:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:20Tim Ferriss?

  Good for her. What was her, what was her name?

• 26:22Speaker 03

  Deanna Blake. She's amazing. She, uh, she's amazing. She's absolutely amazing. And, um, she's like 46 year old, years old from Australia.

• 26:30Tim Ferriss?

  Forty-six?

• 26:31Speaker 03

  Yeah. Just crushes it up there.

• 26:33Tim Ferriss?

  What a beast.

• 26:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:35Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, all my excuses just went out the window.

• 26:37Speaker 03

  Right, right. And she's like the nicest woman in the entire world, too. So.

• 26:42Tim Ferriss?

  How does her strategy

• 26:46Tim Ferriss?

  for training or in the race itself differ from younger, a younger competitor?

• 26:55Speaker 03

  I would say, I think probably, I think as you get older, you realize you, you don't go out as fast. You know, it's kind of like, a- a- as you age, you're never gonna like out sprint, you know, a 20 something year old. Um, but you tend to have more mental strength, the more mental grit, the older you get. Um, just because you're like, whatever, this isn't a big deal, you know, like you're more mature and you can deal with, um, pain and suffering. Um, so I think that it's just kind of more like a slow and steady, you know, and, but just keep going, one foot in front of the other. Um, but to that extent, that's kind of how I operate, too, is that I'm never, I'm notoriously slow out of the gate. Um, you know, in, in the beginning of races, I'm always like

• 27:40Speaker 03

  struggling to catch up with everyone, which is why I like longer races. Um, so then, you know, but it, it's just kind of like, you know, picking them off one by one.

• 27:50Tim Ferriss?

  When, when you are, actually, before that,

• 27:56Tim Ferriss?

  so suffering, let's talk about suffering.

• 27:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:59Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, I was just reading a letter of Seneca's, who's that guy? That's, that's the bust on the kitchen counter over there.

• 28:10Tim Ferriss?

  Related to, I think it's on fasting and celebration, something related to that, but it talks about exposing yourself to suffering.

• 28:17Speaker 03

  Right.

• 28:17Tim Ferriss?

  The, along the lines of the more, the more you sweat during peace, the less you bleed during war.

• 28:23Speaker 03

  Right.

• 28:24Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, and so I practice fasting among, for, for many reasons, among those being practicing hardship, right? So I can endure it in other areas of my life. Do you do that in other places in your life where you deliberately? Expose yourself to different types of pain or suffering as a practice? Or is it limited to the suffer fest?

• 28:48Speaker 03

  I mean, with the amount that I race, there's plenty of suffering involved in that.

• 28:54Tim Ferriss?

  It's sufficient.

• 28:55Speaker 03

  No. I guess I can't do the fasting thing. God, no, I'm not good with that.

• 29:03Tim Ferriss?

  You're burning a lot more calories than I am.

• 29:05Speaker 03

  I'm like, if I don't eat every few hours, like it's trouble for anyone around me. But I always try to train in less than ideal conditions if I can, because I think that that adds a lot to... It's super easy to go out for a run when it's 70 degrees and sunny. But like when I was living in Chicago, which I did for the past six years, if there was like a windstorm or a thunderstorm, I'm like, let me out. You know, like let me...

• 29:34Tim Ferriss?

  Perfect time to run.

• 29:35Speaker 03

  Perfect time to go run. There was one time that I... They had shut down the lakefront path because the waves were coming over and I was like, fuck it, I'm running anyway. Apparently, police don't like that. So as I'm like...

• 29:49Tim Ferriss?

  I'd love to see... Please tell me the police tried to catch you on foot.

• 29:52Speaker 03

  No, well, there was a bicycle cop who I was actually surprised that he was like out in the weather as well. But yeah, and he was like, you can, this is shut down. I'm like, I'm just training. No big deal. No big deal.

• 30:07Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Did that sway his...

• 30:09Speaker 03

  No.

• 30:09Tim Ferriss?

  His position?

• 30:10Speaker 03

  No, not at all.

• 30:16Tim Ferriss?

  So, training in less than ideal conditions. When you look back at the races that you've run, the obstacle course races, what has been the most challenging obstacle for you and what has been the most dangerous?

• 30:41Speaker 03

  I would say in terms of challenging, I always tend to, so there's always, I'm notoriously awful at throwing a spear. And it's well-known in communities that I can't throw a spear to save my life. And so in Spartan races, there's always a spear throw. And it's actually, it's cost me like tons of different races. And it's funny because like, it's one of those things that if you practiced, you would probably be pretty good at it. But like-

• 31:11Tim Ferriss?

  This is why I'm like puzzled right now. Okay.

• 31:13Speaker 03

  About throwing a spear?

• 31:15Tim Ferriss?

  Like summa cum laude.

• 31:19Tim Ferriss?

  You know, like ace lawyer, like world champion racer. Okay, so continue, not to interrupt.

• 31:29Speaker 03

  What? I can't throw a spear? No.

• 31:31Tim Ferriss?

  No, no, but it seems like the other thing you would sit down and study and master.

• 31:34Speaker 03

  You would think so. I actually think that playing softball my entire life kind of screwed me because I would like try and throw it like you throw a softball, which you can't do.

• 31:41Tim Ferriss?

  Under the underhand spear?

• 31:46Tim Ferriss?

  Just messing with you.

• 31:47Speaker 03

  Wah wah wah. She throws like a girl.

• 31:50Tim Ferriss?

  No, no, no. But come on, the pitching does is completely different, right?

• 31:53Speaker 03

  It's completely different.

• 31:54Tim Ferriss?

  I'm referring to the pitching, folks. Don't get, don't get, don't get all riled up.

• 31:58Speaker 03

  Correct. So that's always been, it's always been a challenge for me. And I finally figured it out. But it's one of those things that like, it's a, it's such a silly thing to struggle with, I think. But I guess that also could be the most dangerous because if you miss a spear throw and somebody's around. No, I'm joking. But there are some, in terms of danger for obstacles, like there are times where I'm sitting there being like, why hasn't somebody died in these, oh, I take that back. That's really bad because somebody did die. But, um, but-

• 32:33Tim Ferriss?

  Dangerous part.

• 32:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, um, you know, when you're, when you're racing for 24 hours, especially like really long and you're like climbing super tall things like in the middle of the night. I'm always thinking there being like, man, one misstep and I'm falling backwards and I'm, you know, and I've taken some big diggers off of walls just because you're so tired, you just.

• 32:51Tim Ferriss?

  Big diggers, meaning.

• 32:52Speaker 03

  Big awful falls, you know?

• 32:54Tim Ferriss?

  How, so how, then these are walls that you're climbing over similar to a military obstacle course?

• 33:00Speaker 03

  Correct, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 33:01Tim Ferriss?

  How tall are they?

• 33:01Speaker 03

  Um, they vary, um, you know, some are eight feet, some are 10 feet, some are 12 feet. Some have ropes to help you up them, you know, others, you know, there's big like, kind of like ladders, um, you know, like military tack ladders, you know, that like climbing out of, um, climbing out of water. So there was one time, I think it was in 2012 World's toughest murders, you climbed one of those out of a lake. And it was like 20 feet up, but it was in the middle of the night and it was like frozen. Um, and so you're like, it's like iced over and you're like, I'm gonna die, I'm gonna die. Um, but yeah, so there, there's all these little dangers and people, you know, talk about the electricity

• 33:40Speaker 03

  involved in, in tough matters, um, which is like a very disconcerting, because I've been hit so hard sometimes that I've like blacked out.

• 33:50Tim Ferriss?

  From the electricity?

• 33:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:52Tim Ferriss?

  Can you describe this, this obstacle to folks?

• 33:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, so, well, so there's a couple of variations of it, but, um, basically there's these uh, wires hanging, the worst variation was called electric eel. And, um, you crawl through water that's about like two, three inches deep. And there's wires hanging down over your head. Um, and so you're, you're like army crawling through it and your head is hitting these wires and there will occasionally will like shock you, zap you and it's, is it 10,000 volts? I don't, I don't, or there's the difference between voltage and wattage and I don't really understand what it is, but one will kill you and one won't. Um, so this is supposedly the stuff that won't kill you.

• 34:39Speaker 03

  But if you get hit in just the right way and you're in water, um, like I got hit so hard and like I, my face smacked down through the water and hit my head and then I like blacked out. I started crawling the wrong way. And now it's one of those things that like, once you like do like that, like something like that happens to you, you just have like this insane fear of it, you know? And so it's the worst for me now, like trying to prep.

• 35:04Tim Ferriss?

  You just have the trepidation.

• 35:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:06Tim Ferriss?

  Beforehand.

• 35:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:08Tim Ferriss?

  The people who get injured or even the fatalities, what are, what are the most common causes?

• 35:14Speaker 03

  Honestly, I think the vast majority of injuries are things like rolled ankles, broken ankles.

• 35:19Tim Ferriss?

  What you would expect.

• 35:20Speaker 03

  What you would expect. I mean, I don't think they've never, and you know, the one, the one unfortunate death that I think that we know of that have occurred or deaths that have occurred have been like, you know, heat stroke, dehydration, like the things that you would find.

• 35:34Tim Ferriss?

  Same that you find at ultra marathon.

• 35:36Speaker 03

  Exactly. Exactly. It's not surprisingly for something that is fraught with electricity and spears and you know, like climbing up super tall things and crawling barbed wire, like nobody's like lost an eye, I don't think from a barbed wire, you know?

• 35:52Tim Ferriss?

  One of my buddies got zapped in the eye with one of those electric, uh, one of those electric lines. He was not, he was not super happy about that.

• 35:59Speaker 03

  I mean, the worst, the worst extent of my injuries are really like my body is just covered in barbed wire scars, like scratches. You can probably, I can show you them, but you know, I look like I was attacked by a tiger.

• 36:11Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. I was wondering what kind of cat you had.

• 36:14Speaker 03

  Yeah. It's like everywhere. Rope burns, you know, I'm never going to be a leg model because like.

• 36:21Tim Ferriss?

  Fifty Shades of Tough Mudder. Yeah.

• 36:26Tim Ferriss?

  The, uh, surgery, I want to talk about your knee surgery.

• 36:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:31Tim Ferriss?

  Why did you get knee surgery? And, uh, let's start with that. What was the, what was the reason for the knee surgery?

• 36:37Speaker 03

  So I, um, last summer, heading into like world championship season, um, ended up tearing my meniscus and.

• 36:48Tim Ferriss?

  That was in in training?

• 36:49Speaker 03

  It was in training. It was like, I was like, running in Chicago and there were like potholes everywhere. And it was like one of those like free is one of those freak things where you like step in something and you're like, ah, ah, my leg. And um, then I'm like running it off. I'm like, oh, wait, this actually isn't okay. Um, and uh, so, you know, I went and I had an MRI. I thought I was like, okay, but they're like, my leg like kept locking and I had to like physically unlock it. And so I think with certain meniscus tears that happens. And so, um, they just, they had to go in there and, um, you know, shave down the meniscus. And then, um, there was some like tibial plateau fracture, whatever fancy. So I just had to stay off it for a bit. Yeah.

• 37:30Tim Ferriss?

  When did you, so that happened, how much long, how much later did you compete?

• 37:36Speaker 03

  So I raced again eight weeks post-surgery. Um, and I remember asking my surgeon.

• 37:44Tim Ferriss?

  This was the world's toughest mother?

• 37:46Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 37:47Tim Ferriss?

  Two thousand fourteen.

• 37:48Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 37:48Tim Ferriss?

  Which you won.

• 37:49Speaker 03

  I did. So, so I remember asking my surgeon and I was like, so how long till I'm back running? He was like, maybe like four weeks. And I go, so could I feasibly run a race like eight weeks later? He's like, yeah. And I was like, how long of a race? And cause he was like thinking like I was gonna run a five.

• 38:08Tim Ferriss?

  Do a five K?

• 38:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:11Speaker 03

  I was like, well, it's like twenty four hours. I was just like, so I never got his blessing for it, but I did anyway. So.

• 38:21Tim Ferriss?

  What did you do, uh, between the, what steps did you take to rehab it? I mean, what were the most important things that you did?

• 38:30Speaker 03

  I mean, I, I think most importantly for me was, was getting into, I like got into physical therapy like the next day. Like I had the best physical therapist in Chicago and she was fantastic. She'd worked with me through other injuries and things like that. So we were pretty aggressive in rehabbing it. And then I just did whatever else I could to work around to stay in shape. You know, I think when people get injured, they forget that there's so much that they still can do. So, um, I had a gym that had a ski erg, um, which if you've ever seen is like a rower turned. Upside down and you pull it like you're cross country skiing. Um, so you know, for two weeks, that was the only like, really like thing I could do to like, keep my heart rate up.

• 39:10Tim Ferriss?

  So hand bike, ski erg?

• 39:12Speaker 03

  Hand bike, ski erg. Um, I could row with one leg, but then that kind of like throws, then my other leg was just getting massive. Um, but you know, and I would do, you know, I like rode a 10K on, or skier to 10K, which is the worst kind of torture you can like, do to yourself, you know? Um, and just finding other, finding other ways to work around it.

• 39:35Tim Ferriss?

  What other rehab modalities did you find most helpful personally?

• 39:41Speaker 03

  Um, did a lot of like STEM, um, for to kid, cause I think when you go in-

• 39:47Tim Ferriss?

  Electrical stimulation.

• 39:48Speaker 03

  Electrical stimulation, yeah. Um, so when you go in and you like, cut open your knee or whatever, it shuts down your quad. And so the main thing is getting your quad to then come back and function again. And so STEM is really helpful in, um, you know, like retraining that, um, to get it to fire. Um, so that was, you know, that was helpful. Um, and really like, I'm a huge fan of like ART, grassin', um-

• 40:18Tim Ferriss?

  So for those people not familiar, ART, active release technique, type of myofascial release, which is super, depending on how you have it done, can be super unpleasant. If you're having like your psoas worked on.

• 40:29Speaker 03

  Oh my God. I love that pain though. I think it's like-

• 40:32Tim Ferriss?

  You like having some, like, yeah, like therapist with their like ridge hand knuckle deep into your psoas. I had, just as a side note, all right, so I'm going to give a shout out to this guy, Jesse Burdick, who's a power lifter who trains with a friend of mine, uh, named Mark Bell. I mean, they do a lot of training separately, but I think he pulls, and Jesse, I apologize if I get this wrong, but he can deadlift more, more than 700 pounds.

• 40:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:54Tim Ferriss?

  He's a big unit. And we were getting ready to do, he also does manual therapy. So we're getting ready to do an ART session and, and so he puts them on a table and kind of drapes like one leg off. And he goes, the safe word is brisket. And then just proceeds to- Annihilate my hips. So the basic idea, folks, for those of you don't know the ART, and please correct me if I get this wrong. But if you have adhesions, let's just say with scar tissue between adjacent tissues, you apply pressure, manual pressure, a therapist applies pressure between those tissues, then has you perform motions, like an overhead kind of reaching movement for the lats to break apart those adhesions. Grassten, which is like having really thick butter knives scraped all over you.

• 41:38Tim Ferriss?

  I've read that you use something, and I'm embarrassed, I actually don't know what this is, dry needling?

• 41:42Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 41:43Tim Ferriss?

  What is that?

• 41:44Speaker 03

  Okay, so it's a

• 41:44Tim Ferriss?

  Sounds terrible.

• 41:45Speaker 03

  It's apparently illegal in California, which is why you probably don't know what it is. It's like acupuncture on crack. So, and acupuncturists actually rightfully probably hate it because they think they think it's kind of like a bastardization of what they do. But so when you go and you get acupuncture and the goal is like to not feel the needle, dry needling, you actually are sticking the needle in the muscle belly to try and get it to twitch. And the twitch is like the release. So it's like, and you don't leave the needles in there. So you're basically like poking at a muscle.

• 42:22Tim Ferriss?

  Just sewing machine.

• 42:23Speaker 03

  Yeah. And the worst ever, don't ever let anybody dry needle your calf, your gastroc. Because like if you get in underneath, like right and like the hamstring insertion, like you will feel like you got shot in the back of your legs. And but it can also be kind of addictive because like you have somebody like poking around your glute meat and you feel this twitch. And it's almost like this like release of the muscle.

• 42:46Tim Ferriss?

  What does it do for you?

• 42:48Speaker 03

  It is, it's supposed to, you know, for super tight muscles, the idea is to get it to release. Yeah. So, yeah.

• 42:58Tim Ferriss?

  I had the, I had this, this nutty experience. And if people want to see photos of me in excruciating pain, getting ART done by Charles Poliquin, you can see that in the Four Hour Body. It's kind of hilarious. But the, I had a separate experience with something called, let's see, I guess it would be called. I want to say neuropuncture, but I might be getting that wrong. This was done with Dr. Lee Wolfher many years ago with shallow injections of Prolol solution.

• 43:29Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 43:30Tim Ferriss?

  And what happened, though, and we improvised at this point, is she was working on my infraspinatus. So this is a rotator cuff muscle that I all that always gets sore for me. And I had reconstructive shoulder surgery. And I probably sit like, you know, like chest collapsed. The, you know, Gollum when I'm typing also, which is no good. But she was working on my infraspinatus and she was doing the the kind of sewing machine approach with these these shallow injections. And and we both hear

• 44:02Tim Ferriss?

  and it sounded like someone was scraping ice off a windshield. And it turned out that I had these, these, just this huge clump of calcium deposits at the back of both shoulders. And so so we ended up just, well, we, it's the royal we, she ended up using the needle basically as a scraper to kind of break down these calcium deposits. And what was fascinating is no shoulder pain for months afterward. After chiseling these out, wasn't the most pleasant thing in the world. Uh, so the dry needling, now that you're here in California, no more sad, sad times, no more gluten mead pokes.

• 44:39Speaker 03

  I'm gonna have to like, yeah, go back to my

• 44:41Tim Ferriss?

  Black market dry needling.

• 44:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, well, sometimes I'll get acupuncture done and I'm gonna be like, can you guys like, and like they'll accidentally, a muscle will trigger and release. And I'm like, oh, that's fantastic. Do it again.

• 44:55Speaker 03

  But I'm one of those people, I'm like, I'll try anything once in terms of like recovery or like, you know, I'll just throw the, especially because for most professional athletes that what they do, you know, they their job is like to be a professional athlete and then to like rehab and recover and spend all that time. I'm like training early in the mornings. I go and I sit at a desk for 10 hours a day and then I like try and like training it in the evenings. Like, it's not an ideal, like, I'm not doing my body any favors for like, with what I'm putting it through.

• 45:27Tim Ferriss?

  What, uh, what, what does your nutrition look like?

• 45:32Tim Ferriss?

  And

• 45:35Tim Ferriss?

  No, we were, were you serious earlier when I asked you about breakfast? All right, what was your answer? We were doing a sound check and I asked her what she had for breakfast. What was your answer?

• 45:44Speaker 03

  Pop tarts.

• 45:45Tim Ferriss?

  Pop tarts.

• 45:48Speaker 03

  No, that's actually, so pop tarts has become kind of this like running joke in the obstacle racing community with me because when I won the Spartan Race World Championships in 2013, I was so far ahead. I was like 20, 30 minutes ahead of the next woman and the race director yells at me. He goes, Millie, what'd you have for breakfast this morning? And I'm like, pop tarts. And I actually did randomly that day because they're a really good source of easy, easy, easily digestible carbs.

• 46:15Tim Ferriss?

  Millie? Is that what you said? Or did you say your full name? Sorry, I heard Millie.

• 46:19Speaker 03

  Sorry, said Amelia.

• 46:20Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, got it.

• 46:21Speaker 03

  Sometimes I can't say my own name. And so it kind of became this thing that like, I would just like pre-race ritual, that it would be like a good luck thing to like have a pop tart. Because I'm a soup, I'm a really big person into superstition and it's kind of grown from there. And now I see like, I was at, I was at a race the other weekend and like everyone around me was eating pop tarts.

• 46:48Speaker 03

  What have I started? Like what? And then everyone like posts these pictures on Instagram of them eating pop tarts and like they tag me in it. And I'm like, oh my God, I've created a monster.

• 47:01Tim Ferriss?

  This actually could be an incredible opportunity for you to do whatever you want. Because I remember watching Pumping Iron and Arl Swirzenegger is talking about the guys who'd come up to him and ask him for advice and he'd give them the wrong advices. And he would like tell them to go into the shower at the gym and like scream while they're posing. So you could, you could actually, you could pull an incredible April Fool's joke, but announce it a year later after everyone has already embraced it.

• 47:26Speaker 03

  I know. So now I'm like, okay, well, what's the next thing? Like what's the, you know?

• 47:30Tim Ferriss?

  What other superstitions do you have? Not limited to racing necessarily.

• 47:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. I'm one of those people that, so it's the same.

• 47:41Speaker 03

  Like, I will wear the same sports bra, like, so we race pretty much in like sports bra and like compression shorts because you want as little clothing to like hold down the mud as possible. So I'll wear the same, you know, if I did well in a race, like I'll wear the same outfit for like the next race, and especially the same headband. And then if I don't do well, then that one gets discarded, you know, and so it's, it's that kind of like your typical sports stuff. I actually have, this is just kind of embarrassing, but a small little stuffed dog that travels with me to all races and because I'm typically by myself in really cheap sketchy hotels, because these races are like in the middle of nowhere. So it's

• 48:26Speaker 03

  like my little guard dog.

• 48:28Tim Ferriss?

  How big is the stuffed dog?

• 48:29Speaker 03

  Oh, it like fits in the palm of your hand.

• 48:33Tim Ferriss?

  Where did you get that?

• 48:35Speaker 03

  It was given to me as a gift.

• 48:37Tim Ferriss?

  As a protection, as a guardian?

• 48:40Speaker 03

  As a guard dog. So yeah, I mean, it's, it's just, it's, it's silly, it's silly stuff like that.

• 48:48Tim Ferriss?

  Outside of Pop-Tarts?

• 48:49Speaker 03

  Yeah. What do I actually eat?

• 48:52Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. What is, what is your, let's just say your four weeks out from a race?

• 48:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:59Tim Ferriss?

  What is your, what does a day of food look like for you?

• 49:02Speaker 03

  Oh, that's hard to say. Honestly, like I, it's, it's one of those things I've struggled with that I've, I've tried every, like I tried to do paleo. I tried to be like, maybe I can become a fat adapted athlete because for longer races, I didn't want to have to like rely on gels and foods and stuff like that because after a while, it can, it can be too much on your stomach. But I just never, I'm never going to be the paradigm of good eating of like, and, and I couldn't, couldn't stick with like, you know, the whole, like, you know, trying to, I couldn't go far enough into like the fat adaptation. Like, I was just miserable. I like ice cream way too much. Um.

• 49:44Tim Ferriss?

  It's somewhat chondra indicated for ketosis and fat adaption.

• 49:47Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 49:48Tim Ferriss?

  Much to my chagrin.

• 49:50Speaker 03

  At a certain point, I think I realized I'm like, you know, I'm, I'm performing well. Um, I'm winning races. So why change? If it gets to the point where I'm not doing well, then, then I'll take another look at my diet and, and switch it. But at this point, it's like, I run so much, I put in so much, you know, time that I'm like, whatever, I enjoy food and I'll eat kind of whatever I want.

• 50:16Tim Ferriss?

  What do you consume during a 24 hour race?

• 50:22Speaker 03

  Um.

• 50:23Tim Ferriss?

  What is your, and this is actually a question from a fan.

• 50:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:26Tim Ferriss?

  Which was, how does your gear that you bring with you differ in an obstacle course race versus an ultra marathon?

• 50:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:34Tim Ferriss?

  For instance?

• 50:35Speaker 03

  Yeah. Um.

• 50:36Tim Ferriss?

  Aside from the wet suit?

• 50:37Speaker 03

  Yeah. So I think it really depends. Um, if you're running, I've, as I've learned from like dabbling in ultra marathons is that, um, my body doesn't, especially if you're running hard, um, my body isn't going to handle solid food as well as like the stomach will like stomach acid and stuff like that. So there's a lot of like liquid, um, like tailwind is a good, you know, something that a lot of people use to like, that it's really easy on your stomach.

• 51:02Tim Ferriss?

  Tailwind, that's a good name.

• 51:04Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. Um, and, uh, so, but I also just find, you know, like simple, I actually really love like, um, like I like chewing on things like, like Cliff makes these blocks. So, you know, like I do, I take in simple sugars that, that, um, like fuel me through that. I'm a.

• 51:24Tim Ferriss?

  How often do you eat during a 24 hour race?

• 51:27Speaker 03

  Um, I try and fuel every, like, I try and fuel every, um, 30 minutes to an hour, get something in, but little bits. Um, and then I'm telling you, sometimes are the best things during like a long race are like, oh God, I had a Krispy Kreme doughnut during World Toughest Motor this past year. And it was like the most phenomenal thing I'd ever had. Um, salty things, um. You know, like you want to make sure that you like you um your electrolytes are especially if you're running in a wetsuit because you're losing, I mean.

• 52:01Tim Ferriss?

  You must be losing so much. It's such incredible amount of fluids.

• 52:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, so um pickle juice, mustard, things like that.

• 52:09Tim Ferriss?

  Do you carry that with you? There are stations where you grab that?

• 52:12Speaker 03

  There are stations, there are.

• 52:13Tim Ferriss?

  Just imagining like a camel back half full of pickle juice.

• 52:17Speaker 03

  Well, I actually do. I carry mustard packets with me. So because vinegar is if you ever have issues with cramping, um you know, they say that like the vinegar, the salt and stuff like that can pickle juice is well known to stop cramps in their tracks.

• 52:34Tim Ferriss?

  Pickle juice? I suppose that makes sense.

• 52:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, it's it's pickle juice is harder to carry with you unless you have like a little vial or something like that. But yeah, so um I think that for the longer the race gets, you obviously need more gear. And especially depending on like the cold and the and the weather and what your conditions are. Um, and so, you know, sometimes it's it's pretty massive.

• 53:01Tim Ferriss?

  The uh you're mentioning electrolytes, it's it's fascinating when you look at sort of the record of health issues in endurance races. Most people assume that a lot of it would be related to dehydration, but oftentimes it's the complete opposite. Where a lot of people, many people consume too much water and they get, I guess it's um I might get the hyponatremia. Where you dilute sodium to the extent that in some cases your heart stops functioning. And uh the I recall I was doing this kettlebell certification years ago and it was just like thousands and thousands of swings and whatnot outside in Minnesota and people were getting horrible cramps and they're like, oh, we're not drinking enough water. We need to drink more. I'm like, no, that's not the issue. You need some potassium tablets.

• 53:46Tim Ferriss?

  And uh it's uh but god, that can just be the worst. If I mean, do people, I would imagine. You, there must be a fair number of competitors who just have to drop out because they get like quad or or hamstring cramps.

• 54:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, cramps can be like super debilitating. And I think, and especially like in really hot races and and also in really cold races and stuff like the extremes. So that, you know, it happens. It's the reason why the longer the races to get, you know, like the more unknown and things like that. Go into it. And so it can be, it's always kind of a crap shoot, you know, like you're like, come on, body, please cooperate with me this one time. But sometimes you can't, you can't predict it. So.

• 54:32Tim Ferriss?

  What, uh, what supplements do you use on a daily basis?

• 54:37Speaker 03

  Um, caffeine. No, I like coffee. Uh, so I am actually really, uh, have really kind of bought the hype and the science behind beets.

• 54:47Tim Ferriss?

  Beets, yeah.

• 54:48Speaker 03

  So I actually, I work with a company called Beetle Elite, which is it's powdered beet.

• 54:55Speaker 03

  Concentrated beet. Um, and so it's really that like if you, I remember the first time I ever had beet juice, which just tastes like death. Like, I mean, I, some people like beet juice, but I, I can't handle it. But like you feel this weird like head rush almost. And so I was like, wow, there might be something to this shit. Um, so it's a, so I am really, it's something that I actually like drink every like before workouts and stuff like that. And, you know, delivers the nitric oxide to help the breathing and everything like that. So I think for endurance athletes, you don't need, I don't need the massive dose of caffeine before I go out, you know, and run because who wants to be jittery while like, you know, running for several hours.

• 55:38Speaker 03

  You need more of like the, the, like the help with the breathing and keeping the heart rate low and stuff like that.

• 55:46Speaker 03

  And then I also take, um, you know, I try to stay away from like anti-inflammatories like Advil and stuff like that, just because, you know, it's, it's hard on the body, but big believer in like turmeric.

• 55:57Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 55:58Speaker 03

  Um, and, uh, other things like that. Then anything to try and help with like bones and joints and.

• 56:05Tim Ferriss?

  So you're just taking like glucosamine or MSM or what type of stuff?

• 56:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, but I try and get in natural, I'm like, uh, like bone broth and gelatin and things like that, um, you know, but it's bone broth is an expensive habit until I like buy the bullet and make my own, but then I have to like handle chicken feet and I'm not really into that, so.

• 56:27Tim Ferriss?

  You're in a good place for the, for the, for the bone broth. I'm in the Bay Area. I was like, what is it, Three Stone Hearth, I think in Berkeley?

• 56:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 56:34Tim Ferriss?

  Further down the peninsula, you have some really good sources as well.

• 56:37Speaker 03

  Right.

• 56:38Tim Ferriss?

  Fortunately.

• 56:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:40Tim Ferriss?

  Hippies love bone broth.

• 56:41Speaker 03

  Oh God, it's like, it's the new thing, so yeah.

• 56:44Tim Ferriss?

  And for anybody in New York, I'll just give a shout out, uh, to a new, I guess it's kind of a side gig started by a chef friend of mine, Marco Canora, who was in The Four Hour Chef, uh, Brodo, they serve hot bone broth in the winters in New York City. B R O D O. It's amazing.

• 57:01Speaker 03

  That's.

• 57:02Tim Ferriss?

  And you can get turmeric and or cumin.

• 57:04Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 57:04Tim Ferriss?

  You get different flavored.

• 57:05Speaker 03

  Things, actually.

• 57:06Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, you get that you can, you can pay for the add-ons. Uh, what does your prehab routine look like? So the exercises, what exercises?

• 57:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 57:15Tim Ferriss?

  Do you do to prevent injuries?

• 57:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, so the main injuries that I've kind of dealt with have always been kind of revolving like hips, um, and, uh, uh, you know, glutes, like most runners, glutes that don't fire. Um, so like I.

• 57:31Tim Ferriss?

  The irony.

• 57:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Uh, so, uh, like Jane Fonda's are the, you know, the, the gold standard. Um, but it is, it's a lot of, um, like, kind of like stability work. Um, so I try and do a lot of single leg stuff.

• 57:48Tim Ferriss?

  Um, what type of single leg stuff?

• 57:51Speaker 03

  Uh, so, single leg squats, you know, you don't, you see like crossfitters do like pistols all the way, like ass to ground. You don't need to do that kind of stuff, you know, it's just like small, little, like, you know, mini, single leg squats. Um, I try into like, whenever I'm standing around, I'm trying to like, just stand like on one leg, like balancing and things like that. Um. I do a lot of like band, you know, like the, the physio band like walks. So like monster walks where you're

• 58:20Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, the X walks.

• 58:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, the X walks. That's that kind of stuff. Um, and then a lot of work, especially if it's a trail runner, you really want to work like your, I'm gonna, what is your transverse abdominis or like the really deep core muscles?

• 58:34Tim Ferriss?

  Corset muscle.

• 58:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so a lot of exercises that will like engage that, um, you know, like bird dogs, um, and, uh, things like that. Just there. I mean, they're, they're, they're super like not fun and little tiny movements, but I think most people are, would rather go like, you know, squat 200 pounds and ignore those. And that's not going to help you.

• 58:57Tim Ferriss?

  So you're working on glute med, you're doing sort of isolateral or single leg movements? Do you do step ups? Any work on boxes?

• 59:07Speaker 03

  I do. Um, I do too. I think, I think, and like lunges, um, things like that. Uh, anything that's requiring you to, um, that is requiring, yeah, that like unilateral movement too. So.

• 59:22Tim Ferriss?

  And how much time would you say you spend on those types of prehab movements on a weekly basis?

• 59:27Speaker 03

  It's probably about 15 to 20 minutes a day.

• 59:29Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, 15 to 20 a day. And do you do that pre-workout? Is it a separate workout or after?

• 59:35Speaker 03

  It's generally like, I'll do a few like activation, um, one, you know, like fire hydrants before, and then after, it's generally afterwards that I'll kind of devote 15, 20 minutes, um, to kind of that, those like small little strengthening baby exercises.

• 59:53Tim Ferriss?

  And how many miles on average do you run per week?

• 59:57Speaker 03

  You know, it's changed a lot. Um, I used to, a few years ago, I actually didn't really put in that much mileage. I was like, uh, you know, running too much is not good for you or whatever. I did, I, I've switched my training from, to be more running intensive because I realized that if you're going to run for 24 hours, you probably should run.

• 1:00:15Tim Ferriss?

  Be good at running.

• 1:00:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, right. Exactly. Cause I was just joking. I'm like, I'm not a runner. But then I realized that I actually, I love running on trails and I love long, long runs. And so, um, now I'm probably putting in probably about 60, 70 miles a week, which actually is not that much for a lot of, you see a lot of runners who put in like 100 mile weeks, but.

• 1:00:38Tim Ferriss?

  Sixty, seventy miles a week.

• 1:00:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:00:40Tim Ferriss?

  And how much time do you spend doing other types of training? Like weight training or otherwise?

• 1:00:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, um, I do. So I used to, I, I, I do, um, I generally will like CrossFit three to four days a week. Um, so, you know, or some kind of bastardized version of my own. Um, if I'm not actually going to make it to a CrossFit gym. Um, and so also because I kind of pick and choose what I like to do from that.

• 1:01:11Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 1:01:12Speaker 03

  Uh, so, I mean, I guess it would be probably, I don't know, five to six other hours of other strength training, um, like interval training, things like that.

• 1:01:24Tim Ferriss?

  What is your morning routine or routines look like? First, first sixty minutes of your day?

• 1:01:32Speaker 03

  First sixty minutes.

• 1:01:33Tim Ferriss?

  So you wake up.

• 1:01:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:35Tim Ferriss?

  Punch the roosters, make them crow.

• 1:01:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:38Tim Ferriss?

  Four AM. Uh, what happens between, what does your, what does your day look like between say four and five thirty?

• 1:01:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, um, I mean, I wish I could give you an answer that's like, you know, I go out and I do sun salutations or like breathing exercises or what, well, the sun's not even out at that hour. Um, but it's nothing really, it's nothing really that interesting. I mean, I wake up, um, you know, I'll, generally at that point, I'll actually typically answer some work emails that since I go to bed pretty early.

• 1:02:08Tim Ferriss?

  Um. What time do you go to bed?

• 1:02:10Speaker 03

  Probably, I try and get back by nine. So, um, sometimes I'll work emails that'll come in like later than that. So I'll answer those. And then I'm just, you know, gathering everything up and heading out to if I'm going to the gym that day or if I'm hitting up the trails that day. Um, so, because I'll typically, I'll train in the morning and then I'll get ready and go straight into work.

• 1:02:34Tim Ferriss?

  What time do you get to work?

• 1:02:35Speaker 03

  Uh, about seven thirty or so. Um, and so.

• 1:02:39Tim Ferriss?

  Now, have you eaten breakfast at this point or no?

• 1:02:42Speaker 03

  Um, I will eat. So generally, so I'll wake up.

• 1:02:44Tim Ferriss?

  Pop tarts.

• 1:02:47Speaker 03

  Just race days and this morning, because it's the only thing in the trunk of my car as I was driving up here. I tend pop tart tarts in the trunk of my car. But no, also I'll generally wake up and I actually typically eat a few spoonfuls of like nut butter to fuel before I go out for like if I'm gonna go run, you know, 10, 15 miles. It's a good source of, you know, fuel to keep me going.

• 1:03:13Tim Ferriss?

  So you'll just have like a few tablespoons of almond butter or something like that?

• 1:03:17Speaker 03

  Pretty much. And, and then, yeah, and I found out that, you know, it sits well. And then I'll eat breakfast after I train and then get to the office, things like that.

• 1:03:27Tim Ferriss?

  So what does a non-pop tart breakfast look like?

• 1:03:31Speaker 03

  Oh, generally, I'm a big fan of like omelets and eggs and things like that in the morning, mainly because I really like ketchup and I always put ketchup on it.

• 1:03:41Tim Ferriss?

  It's just a vehicle for the ketchup?

• 1:03:42Speaker 03

  Pretty much. You sense a sugar theme going on here?

• 1:03:49Tim Ferriss?

  Let's

• 1:03:49Speaker 03

  Don't take diet advice from a million.

• 1:03:53Tim Ferriss?

  I want to just take perhaps a few of these fan questions.

• 1:03:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:58Tim Ferriss?

  And we've hit on a number of them already, but

• 1:04:01Speaker 03

  I didn't know I had fans, but

• 1:04:03Tim Ferriss?

  Yes, you did.

• 1:04:05Speaker 03

  Unless they're all coming from Scott.

• 1:04:09Tim Ferriss?

  You have a lot of fans among my fans. So this is a question that I'd be interested to hear the answer to as well. This is from Cindy Palouian. I'm probably masquerading that. What is, what is your self-talk during training and during the challenges sound like? The, the moment when you want to quit? Now, just to head this off at the pass, the, the answer may be that you don't feel

• 1:04:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:04:35Tim Ferriss?

  like you want to quit. But during

• 1:04:39Tim Ferriss?

  Extremely hard races or challenging times. What is your self-talk?

• 1:04:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:04:44Tim Ferriss?

  Look like? Cause I found like many athletes and maybe not you, but have sort of consistent routines in terms of their self-talk.

• 1:04:53Speaker 03

  So what's interesting, especially with long races is that you're always going to hit a low part. Like, and there's always going to be a part where you want to quit, you know, 24 hours at like, and for me, it generally comes early. It's like four hours in and I'm like, God, I gotta do this for 20 more hours.

• 1:05:10Tim Ferriss?

  Another 20 hours.

• 1:05:12Speaker 03

  Um, you know, the sun's setting, it's getting cold, the wind's picking up, there's a massive sandstorm, whatever.

• 1:05:19Speaker 03

  For me, I think I generally, it's hard because people talk, ask me about self-talk. I generally just shut my brain off. And I feel like that that's what keeps, I don't, um, don't really think about anything. Um, but I think when.

• 1:05:32Tim Ferriss?

  Has that always been the case?

• 1:05:35Speaker 03

  I think so. I think that.

• 1:05:37Tim Ferriss?

  And do you just will that into being?

• 1:05:39Speaker 03

  I think I just kind of go, I, well, I use different coping techniques. I sing to myself a lot when I'm out there. Um.

• 1:05:47Tim Ferriss?

  Please tell me you sing out loud.

• 1:05:50Speaker 03

  Sometimes, yes.

• 1:05:51Tim Ferriss?

  Really?

• 1:05:51Speaker 03

  Yeah. If I have, if I'm not, if I have enough breath, like, you know, um, so yeah, you know, there will be like a, there will be like a certain song for every race that will just kind of like replay through my head. So, 2012 World's Tough as Mud or was Macklemore's Thrift Shop. It was like right before it hit big. No, like right before it like busted out, like, and I swear to God, I sing that song over and over again. I can't listen to it the same way anymore.

• 1:06:20Tim Ferriss?

  What, what other songs? So those like your mantra was Macklemore.

• 1:06:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:06:25Tim Ferriss?

  It was like your meditative mantra.

• 1:06:27Speaker 03

  Pretty much for 24 hours.

• 1:06:28Tim Ferriss?

  24 hours. That's dedication. What other songs have you used?

• 1:06:33Speaker 03

  Oh God, they range like all over the place. Um, sometimes it's, um, sometimes it's just like all kind of like sing.

• 1:06:44Speaker 03

  Sometimes it'll be like, so my favorite hymn ever is, I was raised Catholic and whatever, and I love, you know, I've always loved church music. So there's a Christmas song like, "Lo, how a rose air blooming." It's like an old hymn. Not at all what you would think would be like running through my head, like running a race. Sometimes it does, you know? And, but then this other race, it was Kanye. It was like Kanye's monster was, or like, the song was called Monster, you know? So.

• 1:07:19Tim Ferriss?

  What, do other racers do that as well that you're aware of? Or do, do, do any other top racers have coping approaches that you think are interesting?

• 1:07:33Speaker 03

  You know, I think that a lot of people have like that self-talk. Like, I've always tried to, and I think this is pretty common, is that like, a lot of us will try and break up the race into small segments. Because if you look at the whole picture, it will get overwhelming. If you're like, I have a hundred miles to run, and you're like, crap, you know? But if you're like, no, I only have three miles, or I'm just going to focus on getting through these next 10 minutes. And so I've always found that a lot of people who do long endurance events will break it up into small manageable chunks, you know, and just focus on the next few minutes ahead of them. And I think that works pretty well.

• 1:08:14Tim Ferriss?

  Do you, I mean, it sounds like you probably have some form of meditation when you run. And I think that in terms of just mindfulness, I'm sure it's

• 1:08:23Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:08:23Tim Ferriss?

  A very present state we're to start with. But do you have a separate meditative practice of any time?

• 1:08:28Speaker 03

  I don't. I've tried. I went to this like retreat thing that was fantastic. And I tried to do this meditation session. And I just like, 20 minutes in, I was like, I gotta move and do something and then get out of here. So for me, it's almost like the meditation is like, is, is working really hard. Like, you know, like sprinting or running or lifting heavy weights. Like, that's like my yoga practice, you know?

• 1:08:58Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, now I don't know what this refers to, but since Will Hicks is asking, are you going to do the 24 hour Battle Frog in March? Does that mean anything to you?

• 1:09:06Speaker 03

  It does. Yes. Uh, it's a, it's a race. It's another 24 hour obstacle race. You know, maybe. I don't know. My, my schedule next year is, is kind of up in the air. I really, I really want to kind of like venture and challenge like myself in new ways. And so I think I'm going to be doing a lot more like pure trail races too, which I haven't really had a chance, especially out being out here in California. Um, you know, it's a much better, like I love climbing, running up mountains and stuff like that. So.

• 1:09:40Tim Ferriss?

  Why did you decide to move to California?

• 1:09:43Speaker 03

  Um, a variety of reasons. I think the main was I, so I'm from the West Coast. I want to get back here. Um, and then it was a time for a transition and a career for me. Um, you know, uh, I'd been at a law firm for six years and it was great and they were fantastic, but kind of wanted to try a new like, you know, going in-house and working, working for a company there. And, and then actually I'll be honest, the totally the training and having mountains and hills around me. It was really hard. I am the happiest when I am out on a mountain, running around somewhere and I couldn't do that in Chicago. So.

• 1:10:20Tim Ferriss?

  Are you able to disclose the company that you're working for?

• 1:10:22Speaker 03

  Yeah. I, I, uh, yes. Um, so it's this tiny little company. You may have heard of it. Uh, maybe not. I don't know. I, I work for Apple. Yeah.

• 1:10:33Tim Ferriss?

  It's a good company. I have a lot of, a lot of friends at the mothership. Just wanted to make sure they would allow you to at least admit that you work there.

• 1:10:40Speaker 03

  It's on like my LinkedIn and Facebook profile.

• 1:10:42Tim Ferriss?

  Okay. So that's, it's, it's public.

• 1:10:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:10:47Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, this is a very racing specific question. Stephen McKee, how do you keep your body limber after ice or water immersion during a race?

• 1:10:55Speaker 03

  Keep moving?

• 1:10:56Tim Ferriss?

  Just keep moving.

• 1:10:57Speaker 03

  I mean, because yeah, I don't, yeah. Otherwise if you slow down, that's when your body temperature goes down and then you're going to get hypothermic. So.

• 1:11:07Tim Ferriss?

  Mm hmm. So let's, let's, uh, let's go to the third act.

• 1:11:12Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:11:13Tim Ferriss?

  Which is rapid fire questions. They don't have to be rapid fire answers, but the word successful, when you hear the word successful, who's the first person who comes to mind and why?

• 1:11:25Speaker 03

  God, that's so hard. Cause this is gonna be your typical lawyer answer where I'm like, "Well, because successful can have so many different definitions."

• 1:11:32Tim Ferriss?

  No, no, that's fair though. But just, just sort of reflexively.

• 1:11:38Speaker 03

  So this is gonna be kind of a strange answer probably, but I always find people who have like transitioned their careers throughout their, who've had like, who've, I guess who've been flexible in their careers and who have transitioned, this answer's not coming out right. Okay, here we go. I'm gonna use an example.

• 1:11:59Tim Ferriss?

  I do that all the time. Don't worry.

• 1:12:04Tim Ferriss?

  I was trying to record like a 20 second intro for this little audiobook yesterday and it probably took me 47 takes.

• 1:12:11Speaker 03

  Right. You're all like, "Well..."

• 1:12:17Tim Ferriss?

  So the example.

• 1:12:18Speaker 03

  Yeah. So I'm going to give you an example of a person who I find successful and then I'll explain why.

• 1:12:25Tim Ferriss?

  Perfect.

• 1:12:27Speaker 03

  Triple H.

• 1:12:28Tim Ferriss?

  Triple H?

• 1:12:29Speaker 03

  So I am a huge wrestling fan, huge professional wrestling fan. And the reason why I'm gonna use it, and I could use, I could use a number of people as this example, but the reason that I'm gonna use this is because I find people who have had like one, who, so he had a very successful wrestling career, but then transitioned into the business aspect of it. You find so many people and this is interesting being in, I guess you could technically call me kind of a professional athlete. You see a lot of people who I find are very kind of short sighted in that, in that they're like, "Well, I, you know, I'm racing now," and that, but they don't think about what happens when they can no longer do that. So people who

• 1:13:12Speaker 03

  have been able to have a very successful athletic career and then transitioned to the business side of things, or to think far ahead, you know? And so those are the people that I look to that I'm like, you know, they have, they have everything. They have the athletic side of it, but then they also have the business acumen and are smart enough to know that their body isn't going to always be there for them, you know?

• 1:13:37Tim Ferriss?

  Oscar De La Hoya, a good example too, with Golden Boy Productions.

• 1:13:40Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:13:40Tim Ferriss?

  Very savvy.

• 1:13:41Speaker 03

  I mean, if we want to keep going professional wrestling, you know, it's like The Rock, you know, like things that transition to being an actor.

• 1:13:47Tim Ferriss?

  He's done alright.

• 1:13:47Speaker 03

  So.

• 1:13:49Tim Ferriss?

  Triple H is a great example, though. Paul Levesque, really smart guy. I had him on the podcast.

• 1:13:56Speaker 03

  Listen to.

• 1:13:56Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, it just blew my mind. Really, really, really savvy guy.

• 1:14:00Speaker 03

  Right, right.

• 1:14:01Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, so Triple H. I agree. I also view him, he works out at, I think, midnight every day with Joe DeFranco, like after his entire, he is very.

• 1:14:13Speaker 03

  Okay, so we're like the opposite.

• 1:14:14Tim Ferriss?

  You guys have, right, you have the opposite schedules.

• 1:14:18Speaker 03

  But he's also a big fan of routine, and which I know, and I've heard him talk about too. And, and that's how I get by. And like, I don't care where I am in life, if I'm traveling, if I'm on the road for work, like, I'm going to create a routine there and stick with it, you know, and so, that's how he's vibe.

• 1:14:34Tim Ferriss?

  What is something that you believe that other people think is insane?

• 1:14:42Tim Ferriss?

  Or any controversial beliefs that you have?

• 1:14:46Speaker 03

  Interesting.

• 1:14:49Tim Ferriss?

  And if nothing jumps to mind, we can also come back to that.

• 1:14:54Speaker 03

  Right. Um, hmm.

• 1:15:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, I may need to come back to that one.

• 1:15:01Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, we'll come back to that. What book or books have you gifted most to other people?

• 1:15:09Speaker 03

  Um, I'm gonna butcher this author's name, because I always do. House of Leaves by Mark, um, Mark Daniel, Daniel Lousky? Um, so, and the reason that I say this, and that I, and that I would gift this is that, so, so many people now read on like Kindles or technology or things like that. This is a book that you have to hold, because there are parts of it where you need to turn it upside down to read it. And I forget the style of what it's called, the style of writing, there's actual like genre for it, but. Like there are certain pages where you are reading it and it turns in a circle.

• 1:15:51Speaker 03

  So it's in like an entire, I think that reading a book and you know, holding the physical book and turning the pages is such a lost art, you know? And so there's something, but this is a book that's like an entire sensory experience. It's a fantastic story. It's brilliant. It's kind of like a story within a story. But then it requires you as a reader to be like active and involved, you know? And I think that's just so cool because you don't see stuff like that anymore. And especially now when people read things on, you know, their iPads or their Kindles or whatever, um, and kind of like holding a book is something that we no longer do. So.

• 1:16:32Tim Ferriss?

  House of Leaves, very cool. Do you have any favorite documentaries or movies?

• 1:16:38Speaker 03

  Uh, my all time favorite movie is The Goonies.

• 1:16:40Tim Ferriss?

  The Goonies.

• 1:16:41Speaker 03

  I mean.

• 1:16:41Tim Ferriss?

  It's a quality film.

• 1:16:42Speaker 03

  It's the quality. It's not, it's not, it's not gonna like, it's not life changing, but you know, it's a.

• 1:16:48Tim Ferriss?

  Any favorite character from The Goonies?

• 1:16:50Speaker 03

  Um, Data.

• 1:16:52Tim Ferriss?

  Data, Data is great.

• 1:16:54Speaker 03

  Pinterest of Power. I mean, like, yeah, I growing up in Oregon, you just had to like, that was, that was my jam, you know? We didn't have much to claim being from Oregon, but we could claim that movie.

• 1:17:10Tim Ferriss?

  What is the, uh, purchase that is most, uh, for less than a hundred dollars? Purchase of less than a hundred dollars that has most, uh, positively impacted your life in recent memory?

• 1:17:26Speaker 03

  Um, this is really funny. So Manuka honey bandages. And, uh, the, so I get banged up a lot, um, racing.

• 1:17:38Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I've seen, yeah, there's some of the photos that you sent me. So before we do these interviews, you know, I ask for a short bio, some photos that might be, uh, usable. And I'm looking at one of them, you're climbing up this red and you're just covered in blood. So, yes, you get banged up.

• 1:17:58Speaker 03

  So, um, this past summer, I actually, there's this one obstacle called tarolian traverse, where you basically-

• 1:18:06Tim Ferriss?

  What is it called?

• 1:18:06Speaker 03

  Tarolian traverse.

• 1:18:08Tim Ferriss?

  Tarolian.

• 1:18:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, so it's like you've seen like the military guys, they like, it's a rope thing. You either go under it and it's just a rope traverse.

• 1:18:15Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:15Speaker 03

  Um, but you can also go on top of it. It saves your grip. Um, and I decided one day, one race, to go on top of it, saving my grip. And I was wearing just a sports bra and massive rope burn all down the front of my, and like the worst pain was like a second degree burn. And I discovered, um, that the only thing that would take away the sting were these like honey bandages. And there was only, CVS was the only place that sold them.

• 1:18:39Tim Ferriss?

  CVS has manuka honey bandages?

• 1:18:42Speaker 03

  The only, or I could find them online too. And, uh, I swear, it was the only thing that got me through like the next few weeks in like no pain. But now I use them all the time for all of like my scrapes and it's, they're great like antibacterial and blah, blah. I mean, with the number that I bought, I'm sure it's over, I've spent way more than a hundred dollars on them, but.

• 1:19:01Tim Ferriss?

  The new honey bandages, cool. Uh, now, I usually ask about morning routines. We already covered quite a bit of that. What other routines or habits do you find important in your day or week?

• 1:19:20Speaker 03

  Um, I, it's very easy for me to, or I think it's very easy for a lot of people to get disconnected from, you know, people around, especially now when our like social media type of world. Is that like you, you know, like something on Instagram or, you know, favorite something on Twitter or whatever. I, whatever the things are that you do. Um, so it's very important for me to like, I always set a time every single week and I call my parents like at the same time. And I call my sister and, um, to try and make those, those, um, you know, personal connections and stuff like that. Because it can be so impersonal now with everything that we have. You know, technology that you can be like friends with people that you've never met in real life.

• 1:20:05Speaker 03

  So I always try like, for me, that routine, like every Sunday at the same time, calling the parents, you know? Just kind of like keeping me grounded, things like that.

• 1:20:15Tim Ferriss?

  Do you have any wind down routine? What is the hour before bed look like?

• 1:20:22Speaker 03

  So I generally, um.

• 1:20:30Tim Ferriss?

  Can't wait to hear this.

• 1:20:31Speaker 03

  No, I was just like, I was just trying to think of like, if I actually had, because generally I'll be, um, you know, watching Monday Night Raw.

• 1:20:41Speaker 03

  I don't watch a lot of TV, but it's either sports or professional wrestling when I do.

• 1:20:48Speaker 03

  You know, I, I am generally one of those people that's like so tired by the time it's time to go to bed. I don't really need a routine.

• 1:20:55Tim Ferriss?

  Don't have any necessity.

• 1:20:56Speaker 03

  It's like, all right, it's time to go to bed.

• 1:21:00Tim Ferriss?

  Done. Got it. Uh, if you could have a billboard anywhere, what would it say? Put anything on it?

• 1:21:17Speaker 03

  I think I would say, um, I think it would be something along the lines of, um, no one owes you anything.

• 1:21:29Speaker 03

  And I think that this has been something that lately I feel like there's such a level of entitlement now in people like that, that, oh, I, I deserve this, or I blah, blah, blah this.

• 1:21:44Speaker 03

  And at the end of the day, I'm like, it's hard work, you know, the people that I find the most successful, people that I, that one thing that I've always prided myself on is that like, I've worked really goddamn hard for everything that, you know, that I've gotten or that I've done in my life. And you can't expect handouts from people, you know, the, at the end of the day, all that you can, that you can count on really is yourself. And so, like, I don't expect people to give me anything. So, and I really wish, like, you know, as you see people now, like, I don't know, the level of entitlement that people think that they deserve a handout or deserve, help sometimes, sometimes I'm like, no, make it yourself, make your own opportunities, you know?

• 1:22:27Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, that's very pronounced here in Silicon Valley, too.

• 1:22:33Tim Ferriss?

  It's like, I know you just had a great idea when you went to the bathroom, but it's not worth $50 million yet, I'm sorry.

• 1:22:38Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 1:22:40Tim Ferriss?

  This is, this is not one of my normal rapid fire questions, and I'm sure I'm gonna get a lot of grief for this, for my fans. But I have to ask, because I know a lot of very successful women, CEOs, and so on.

• 1:22:55Tim Ferriss?

  So 2012, second place overall. I mean, you could have, potentially, I mean, it's well within the realm of possibility, you could have won the whole thing. Do you find it hard to date? Is it, I mean, is it, because I'm imagining, if I put myself in your shoes,

• 1:23:13Tim Ferriss?

  it must be, and you're, and you're extremely successful in your career, is it hard for you to find someone you respect enough to date? Because, I mean, like, the mental, physical, emotional toughness spheres?

• 1:23:26Speaker 03

  So I don't think that it's so much me.

• 1:23:31Tim Ferriss?

  That's how it always starts.

• 1:23:33Speaker 03

  It's not me, it's him. No, I honestly, I, so I tend to be attracted to people that are almost like, I don't want to say the exact opposite than me, because then that sounds like I'm attracted to people who, like, aren't successful. But what I found is that I need somebody who's very complimentary to me, in terms of, like, very kind of, I admire people that are super laid back, and go with the flow, and very adaptable, and just, you know, everything that I'm not. And so, I think that, like, for me, it's not so hard to find people like that. I think, though, you know, sometimes you do get, you'll hear, you know,

• 1:24:14Speaker 03

  it takes a certain type of guy who can be secure with, with being with, you know, a woman who, you know, beats 99% of the dudes at, like, Good sport or whatever.

• 1:24:26Tim Ferriss?

  Sure.

• 1:24:26Speaker 03

  And that feels weird to say, because that feels like I'm like being like, look at me. I'm such a badass.

• 1:24:31Tim Ferriss?

  No, no, no, facts are the facts.

• 1:24:32Speaker 03

  But, you know, it's, I think that it takes actually a guy who's very secure in his own right. You know, you can't, I can't like date somebody who's like, who's not, you know, secure in who he is, because then that would just be disastrous.

• 1:24:51Tim Ferriss?

  Doesn't sound like it would get very far.

• 1:24:54Speaker 03

  Nah.

• 1:24:54Tim Ferriss?

  What, what advice would you give your twenty five-year-old self and place, place us twenty and twenty-five? I'd be interested to get it for both ages. So where were you, what were you doing at twenty and then twenty-five?

• 1:25:10Speaker 03

  So twenty, I was finishing up college, probably just getting ready to apply to law school. Super, you know, like hardcore driven. Going to be partner at a law firm one day, you know, like all those things. I think at that time I would tell myself to relax. And, you know, that you can't predict where life is going to take you. And because now looking at, I'm like, would I ever expect that? I'd be like, the world's top obstacle racer. We didn't even know what the fuck obstacle, it wasn't even around at that time, you know?

• 1:25:51Tim Ferriss?

  Wasn't even a thing, yeah.

• 1:25:51Speaker 03

  Wasn't even a thing. And so, and I think at twenty-five, I was finishing up law school and I was starting my career as an attorney. So it'd probably be similar, but I think what I would tell, I'm actually going to give you, I, what I would tell my twenty-eight-year-old self, which is when I started all of this obstacle racing stuff. And I would tell myself, it really doesn't matter. At the end of the, okay, that sounds bad, but. Like, don't take it so seriously. Um, you know, and

• 1:26:32Speaker 03

  at the end

• 1:26:32Tim Ferriss?

  The racing itself.

• 1:26:33Speaker 03

  The racing itself. Because when you reach, it started out as totally fun. And then you reach a certain level of success and everyone, then it becomes this pressure and everything like that. And I think that it's not all of the stress and the pressure and everything that I would put on myself from it. It's, it's not worth it. It doesn't change the outcome. I'm either, you know, ready or I'm not to like, you know, beat somebody. Um, so at the end of the day, kind of keep it all in perspective and

• 1:27:05Speaker 03

  like, it's kind of hilarious. I'm running around in the mud, being shocked by electrical things, like running around for 24 hours in a wet suit. Like, just keep that in perspective, you know, like, it's kind of ludicrous what I'm doing, you know? So have fun with it, you know, because there's so much time that I think that I wasted not like putting so much pressure on myself and not having fun. And now I've kind of like come full circle. I'm like, ah, it's just fun, you know?

• 1:27:35Tim Ferriss?

  Who would you, uh, who is someone or who are people you would like to meet someday?

• 1:27:44Tim Ferriss?

  If anyone?

• 1:27:47Speaker 03

  God, see that list is like massive, you know?

• 1:27:50Tim Ferriss?

  Who's, who's, who's up at the top of the list?

• 1:27:53Speaker 03

  Uh, Ronda Rousey.

• 1:27:55Tim Ferriss?

  Ronda Rousey.

• 1:27:57Speaker 03

  I like to meet strong, I have an entire list, like, strong females who are like the top of what they do.

• 1:28:05Tim Ferriss?

  She's on my list too.

• 1:28:06Speaker 03

  Right. Um, but then I, that also extends to, you know, just yeah, other things that are like not athletically inclined, you know? So you see like Sheryl Sandberg and like the, the females that have made names for themselves and, you know, as top executives and things like that. Um, so I'm not like rah rah girl power type of person, but you know, finding other women like that and seeing what makes them tick and seeing how they survive is, is, uh, always really interesting for me.

• 1:28:41Tim Ferriss?

  What if any asks or requests do you have for the audience? And this is the, this is the last question.

• 1:28:48Speaker 03

  Ask or request?

• 1:28:50Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, anything you'd like them to do.

• 1:28:54Tim Ferriss?

  Or think about, or consider, or all of the above.

• 1:28:57Speaker 03

  Right. You know, I think, um, one of the things that I've learned is like, and what I would tell people is like, be open to experiences, you know? And, um, especially with, they're probably like sitting, oh, people, if they're sitting here listening to this, they're either already in obstacle course racing and are like, man, this shit's bananas. It's great, you know? So I don't need to convince them of anything. Or if they've happened upon this and they're like, we don't understand what this chick is doing, actually. Um, like, I don't know. I would say go out there and like, you know, try something new. Um, and, you know, so if that's off, if you want to go out and run obstacle course, of course, like, great.

• 1:29:37Speaker 03

  Um, but I want to be where I am today without, you know, just like saying, sure, and trying something and, and seeing where that leads me. So I think that's always kind of important to keep in mind.

• 1:29:52Tim Ferriss?

  Try something new.

• 1:29:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:29:54Tim Ferriss?

  It's good advice.

• 1:29:56Speaker 03

  I'm not sure if I'm asking them to do something there.

• 1:29:58Tim Ferriss?

  No, no, no. I think it's good, good advice. I mean, do something just for the fuck of it, I think is kind of.

• 1:30:04Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:30:05Tim Ferriss?

  Coming back to your, don't take it so seriously. Like, not everything has to figure into your five-year.

• 1:30:11Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:30:11Tim Ferriss?

  Plan.

• 1:30:11Speaker 03

  And I think that's hard because for me, it's like, I've always been that like super planner, five-year person. So it's something that I actually have to remind myself is like, try something new, Amelia. Like, just do it.

• 1:30:21Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:22Speaker 03

  Why not? Do it.

• 1:30:23Tim Ferriss?

  That was, that was one of my, I think I call it a resolution. So it wasn't a New Year's resolution, but went, I've done, did a lot of unusual experiments last year. Uh, that we won't get into right now. But one of the, one of the realizations was be playful. Like, you don't have to be so goddamn serious about things all the time. I mean, it's like, do something that doesn't have an explicit point or an angle, or whatever it might be.

• 1:30:48Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, somebody told me the other day, um, that the only thing, at the end of the day, the only thing we have is time. If you really cut through all the bullshit out there, and like, this is funny when you ask me about like, who do you think is successful?

• 1:31:03Speaker 03

  Like, seriously, I think the most successful people who are out there are people that are happy, that are just, like, they may not have it all, they may be dirt poor, they may not be educated, they may, whatever, but if they can art everyday life smiling and just generally happy, like, if you break it all down, all we have is time, so why spend it being miserable? So, like, go do something that makes you happy, and, like, and have fun with it, because you're not taking it with you when you go.

• 1:31:34Tim Ferriss?

  It's your most valuable non-renewable resource.

• 1:31:38Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 1:31:38Tim Ferriss?

  As far as we know.

• 1:31:39Speaker 03

  Well, right. You know, when my time finally comes and I realize that there's like a super cool world on the other side, I'm gonna be like, "God damn it!"

• 1:31:48Tim Ferriss?

  Well, Amelia, thanks so much for taking the time. And where can people say hello, find you on the interwebs and so on?

• 1:31:57Speaker 03

  Uh, on my grossly needs updating website, amelia boone racing dot com, but I actually am most active on Twitter, it's just, the handle's Amelia Boone.

• 1:32:11Tim Ferriss?

  Boone with an E?

• 1:32:12Speaker 03

  What?

• 1:32:13Tim Ferriss?

  Boone with an E at the end. Amelia Boone, B-O-O-N-E.

• 1:32:17Speaker 03

  Correct. But be fair, forewarned, I tweet a fair amount about the Seahawks and professional wrestling, so if you're not into that, you probably don't want to follow me. And then, I'm on Instagram as well, it's A-R Boone 11, because Amelia Boone was already taken by the time I joined that.

• 1:32:37Tim Ferriss?

  A-R Boone 11.

• 1:32:39Speaker 03

  Correct. And I'm on Facebook, I don't have an athlete page, because I don't really like that or believe in that, but you can follow me, but I don't really become friends with people I haven't met before in life, because that weirds me out.

• 1:32:54Tim Ferriss?

  So Twitter.

• 1:32:55Speaker 03

  So Twitter and Instagram are your best bets?

• 1:32:57Tim Ferriss?

  Twitter and Instagram. Cool. Well, this has been a blast. Everybody listening, we will link to the books and so on, the Manuka honey bandages and whatnot. Everything mentioned in the show notes, you can just go to fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out forward slash podcast and that will have all episodes, including this one. And I'll create just a short, a short link you can go to, or it's not a short link, but a URL, you can go to fourhourworkweek.com/ Amelia. That will go straight to this episode. And Amelia, once again, thank you so much for taking the time.

• 1:33:31Speaker 03

  Appreciate it.

• 1:33:31Tim Ferriss?

  And I would say, let's go for a run sometime, but I have some training to do before I'm prepared for that. And to everybody listening, as always, thank you so much for sticking around and we'll see you soon.

• 1:33:48Tim Ferriss?

  Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the, the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I have read and that I've shared with my close friends,

• 1:34:28Tim Ferriss?

  for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it.

• 1:34:52Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by 99designs. When your business needs a logo, website, business card, thumbnail, or any other design, I recommend checking out 99designs. I use them myself. I've used them for many years. I use them to create book cover prototypes for The 4-Hour Body, which went on to become a number one New York Times bestseller. I've also used them for banner ads, illustrations, and much more. With 99designs, you get a variety of original designs from designers around the world, give your feedback, and then pick your favorite. Your happiness is guaranteed. So check out some of my competitions and designs and some of your competitions and designs from fellow Tim Ferriss Show listeners at 99designs.com/tim. And right now, you can get a free $99 upgrade on your first design.

• 1:35:36Tim Ferriss?

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• 1:36:19Tim Ferriss?

  And this is because they use smarter software instead of retail locations, bloated sales teams, etc. And I'll come back to that in a second. I suggest you check out wealthfront.com/tim. Take the risk assessment quiz, which only takes two to five minutes, and they'll show you for free exactly the portfolio they'd put you in. And if you just want to take their advice, run with it, do it yourself, you can do that. Or, as I would, you can set it and forget it. Here's why. The value of Wealthfront is in the automation of habits and strategies that investors should be using on a regular basis but normally aren't. Great investing is a marathon, not a sprint, and little things that you may or may not be familiar with, like automatic tax-loss harvesting, rebalancing your portfolio... More than 10 asset classes and dividend reinvestment add up to very large amounts

• 1:37:04Tim Ferriss?

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• 1:37:48Tim Ferriss?

  invest your money are not allowed to use client testimonials, so I couldn't be a user and have them on the podcast. But I've been so impressed by Wealthfront that I've invested a significant amount of my own money, at least for me, in the team and the company itself. So I am an investor and hope to soon use it as a client. Now, back to the recommendation. As a Tim Ferriss Show listener, you'll get $15,000 managed for free if you decide to open an account, but just start with seeing the portfolio that they would suggest for you. Take two minutes, fill out their questionnaire at wealthfront.com/tim. It's fast, it's free, there's no downside that I can think of. Now, I do have to read a mandatory disclaimer. Wealthfront, Inc. is an SEC-registered investment advisor. Investing in securities involves risks, and there's the possibility of losing money.

• 1:38:32Tim Ferriss?

  Past performance is no guarantee of future results. Please visit wealthfront.com to read their full disclosure. So, check it out, guys. This is one of the hottest, most innovative companies coming out of Silicon Valley, and they're killing it. They've become massively popular. Just take a look, see what portfolio they would create for you, and you can use that information however you want. Wealthfront.com/tim. And until next time, thank you for listening.