Pod Insights Stuff You Should Know Selects: The Disappearance of Flight MH370, Part II About this episode In the absence of an official explanation of why flight MH 370 disappeared in 2014, conjecture and conspiracy theories have filled the vacuum. Find out the current state of things in this classic episode.
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0:00 Speaker 00 This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.
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0:45 Josh Clark? Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of Vivgard. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of Vivgard on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, it's me, Josh, and I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The disappearance of MH370 is one of the biggest mysteries in aviation history. In the second part, we talk about the investigation into the disappearance and the theories of what might have happened. Hope you enjoy.
1:30 Speaker 00 Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.
1:39 Josh Clark? Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and this is part two of two about MH370, the most mysterious disappearance of any airliner in the history of modern aviation.
1:54 Speaker 02 That's right. We won't do a full recap, but where we're picking up now is-
1:58 Josh Clark? No, no, wait.
1:59 Speaker 02 You want to do a full recap, probably?
2:00 Josh Clark? Twenty minutes easy.
2:02 Speaker 02 We are at the point where the plane has crashed, and we're going to pick up with post-crash investigations, which, like many airline crash investigations, were bungled in a lot of ways.
2:19 Josh Clark? Oh, yeah. So Ed points out that, like, kind of oddly, that-
2:26 Josh Clark? There are a lot of crash investigations you can point to that, you know, kind of deferred toward the airline manufacturer when they were at fault, or tried to do some cover up, or was not great. None of them, from what I can tell, compared to this one.
2:41 Speaker 02 No, agreed.
2:41 Josh Clark? This was very, very not good. And the seems to be the roundly, the roundly accepted reason for the, the whole thing being bungled, was that Malaysia at the time was a dictatorship, and you could disappear if you weren't doing your job very well, or if you offended the, the people in charge. And a crash of a Malaysian's airline flight, in particular, was kind of a dicey thing to talk about, because Malaysian Airlines was the pride of Malaysia. And it was a, at the time, a government, largely government-owned and controlled airline, a state-owned airline.
3:18 Speaker 02 Yeah.
3:19 Josh Clark? It was the, the Malaysia was the majority owner of stock, and it was publicly traded, Malaysia Airlines was, but they owned the majority of it, they called the shots.
3:27 Speaker 02 Yeah.
3:27 Josh Clark? And after 2014, which proved to be a terrible year by any airline standards, because not only was MH370, did it vanish, MH17 was shot down over Ukraine.
3:39 Speaker 02 Yeah.
3:39 Josh Clark? The same year, just less than six months later. The Malaysian government set about buying back all of the shares that were outstanding of Malaysian Airlines.
3:49 Speaker 02 Yeah.
3:49 Josh Clark? And took it off of public listing, made it a fully state-owned company.
3:54 Speaker 02 Yeah, so they certainly didn't want the, the bad press that was sure to follow.
3:58 Josh Clark? No. So, there's a lot of people who say the Malaysian government covered this up, not because they did anything nefarious, but because they were worried that something embarrassing was going to come out. And this is not a government that could handle embarrassment very well.
4:12 Speaker 02 Right.
4:12 Josh Clark? And so they literally obfuscated the, the, the investigation into what happened to MH370.
4:21 Speaker 02 Yeah, so the first problem here is, we know now that this plane crashed in the South Indian Ocean, and it took a week before they were looking in the South Indian Ocean.
4:32 Josh Clark? Yeah.
4:32 Speaker 02 So, the first 24 hours was in the South China Sea, between Malaysia and Vietnam. They ended up hooking up and creating a joint-agency coordination center, or actually, Australia is who created that. And they led the search efforts, because it was close to them. And they found no trace, even after they did all this ocean floor mapping. Searching, you know, they had that seventh arc pegged, searched all along there.
5:01 Josh Clark? 120,000 square miles.
5:03 Speaker 02 Yeah, which is, you know, even if you find that seventh arc and you know it's somewhere in here, that's still a vast, vast area. And this thing is on the bottom of the ocean at this point.
5:12 Josh Clark? And we should say, by this time, Australia has stepped up and been like, well, this happened not too far from us, I guess, we're the closest major country.
5:21 Speaker 02 Yeah.
5:22 Josh Clark? Certainly, Western democracy in this, in this area, we'll, we'll head this up. Malaysia will help you out. And they footed a lot of the bill, which was pretty cool.
5:32 Speaker 02 Yeah, 160 million bucks.
5:34 Josh Clark? Yeah, from what I understand.
5:35 Speaker 02 That's what Australia spent.
5:36 Josh Clark? Yeah, and I think it was the most, and still is, the most expensive search in aviation history.
5:42 Speaker 02 Yeah.
5:43 Josh Clark? Which is kind of surprising, you'd think that more would have been spent, but I think they usually find them sooner than this. This was not found.
5:49 Speaker 02 Yeah.
5:50 Josh Clark? And they searched for two solid years for this thing. And just on that seventh arc.
5:55 Speaker 02 Yeah.
5:56 Josh Clark? There's a lot of people who at the time were like, no, you know how it forms a circle? Well, there's a northern arc and a southern arc. And some people said, no, northern arc, somewhere it's in Kazakhstan. The southern arc was in the Indian Ocean. Most people said, it's probably the southern arc.
6:10 Speaker 02 Right.
6:11 Josh Clark? So that's where they searched, and they still didn't find it.
6:12 Speaker 02 Yeah. And it took so long to even get there. By that point, there were a lot of things, if you had that first 24 hours, it's sort of like a murder investigation. That first day is so key.
6:25 Josh Clark? The first 48?
6:26 Speaker 02 Yeah, is it 48? I'm saying, I'm making, I'm narrowing it down to 24, buddy.
6:30 Josh Clark? Yeah, okay.
6:31 Speaker 02 So Malaysia then heads up what's called a joint investigation team. The US was involved, China, Britain, and France.
6:38 Josh Clark? This was the one that was meant to follow the protocols of just the internationally agreed upon.
6:45 Speaker 02 Yeah.
6:46 Josh Clark? Accident investigation to make air travel safer for everybody. And Malaysia did not help out very well.
6:52 Speaker 02 No, so they issued, the Malaysian Ministry of Transport issued a preliminary and a final report. The preliminary report Ed describes as more or less a reprint of the Boeing 777 manual. Just like, well, here, here was the plane.
7:08 Josh Clark? Which I think is kind of standard to have technical information, but this is-
7:12 Speaker 02 But not just the whole report.
7:13 Josh Clark? Right.
7:13 Speaker 02 And then the second one, the, the final report, basically pointed out where air traffic control failed along the way.
7:22 Josh Clark? Yeah, and I saw in that Langwaisch article that, that they were politically speaking the easiest targets. They were not going to, there wasn't going to be any backlash by kind of taking them to task, especially taking the Ho Chi Minh air traffic controllers to task too.
7:39 Speaker 02 Yeah.
7:39 Josh Clark? They should have been taking it task. Eighteen minutes is a very long time to let an airliner in your jurisdiction just be disappeared.
7:46 Speaker 02 Right.
7:47 Josh Clark? So that, that was a big problem, but the Malaysian Air Force also should have been criticized for covering up the fact that they hadn't done anything for an hour that they were tracking this, this unidentified airplane in their airspace.
8:03 Speaker 02 Right.
8:03 Josh Clark? And let an entire search, multinational search be mounted in the South China Sea-
8:09 Speaker 02 Yeah, in the wrong place.
8:10 Josh Clark? For like a couple of days before they were like, um, actually-
8:13 Speaker 02 Yeah.
8:13 Josh Clark? We, we think they went this way.
8:15 Speaker 02 Yeah.
8:15 Josh Clark? You know?
8:16 Speaker 02 Cause it takes a long time to even assemble that kind of search squad.
8:19 Josh Clark? Yeah.
8:19 Speaker 02 So I think if they searched for two days and didn't get started till a week later, that's like four days just to like move.
8:27 Josh Clark? Right.
8:27 Speaker 02 You know?
8:27 Josh Clark? And so in that time, an oil slick, a debris field-
8:31 Speaker 02 Yeah.
8:31 Josh Clark? All that stuff can just vanish.
8:33 Speaker 02 Yeah.
8:33 Josh Clark? And an airliner really can in an area the size of the Indian Ocean, especially even when you know where to look-
8:40 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah.
8:41 Josh Clark? Can just disappear.
8:42 Speaker 02 That's right.
8:42 Josh Clark? And that is why a lot of people say, we will probably never find-
8:46 Speaker 02 Yeah.
8:47 Josh Clark? MH370. There's, there's another couple of reasons why too.
8:51 Speaker 02 Are we gonna get to this?
8:51 Josh Clark? Sure.
8:52 Speaker 02 Okay. The police in Malaysia, and this bore a little bit of fruit. They conducted some background checks on everyone on the plane. And they did find two passengers who were Iranians that had stolen passports. Apparently, they were just seeking political asylum, though. Although, that does factor into some of the conspiracy theories
9:12 Josh Clark? Oh, yeah.
9:13 Speaker 02 that pop up later on.
9:13 Josh Clark? Yeah, anytime you have two Iranian nationals traveling under fake passports on a plane that disappeared, some people are going to say,
9:20 Speaker 02 Sure.
9:21 Josh Clark? "I don't know about that one."
9:22 Speaker 02 Yeah, exactly. And then, here was the one thing about their final report from the police. Is, they described Captain Zahari, basically saying, like, "This guy was great. Nothing wrong. He was a great pilot.
9:39 Speaker 02 Nothing to alarm anybody here about Captain Zahari."
9:42 Josh Clark? Nothing to see here.
9:43 Speaker 02 And that's in the final report. And we'll get to him, but that does not appear to be true.
9:49 Josh Clark? No.
9:51 Josh Clark? So, after the search, after two years and $160 million and 120,000... Sorry, 120,000 square kilometers. I think it said square miles. Still a lot of square miles searched. The Australians, the Malaysians, and the Chinese that made up the tripartite commission that were kind of running the show in this search, said officially, "We don't know what happened. All we can say is that we believe MH370 ended somewhere in the southern Indian Ocean." That's the official stance on what happened to a vanished airliner.
10:33 Josh Clark? That they said, "We don't know, and that's as far as we're gonna go."
10:37 Speaker 02 Yeah, and I do want to point out quickly, there was one private agency called in, or I think volunteered, called Ocean Infinity.
10:44 Josh Clark? From Texas.
10:45 Speaker 02 Yeah, they performed a search, basically, pro bono. If they find the plane, they get paid. But, just as a... Sort of a nerd in this way, I looked into that company. They're awesome.
10:56 Josh Clark? Yeah, they are.
10:57 Speaker 02 It's really cool, man. They are, uh, they call it seabed intelligence. And it's, it's like James Cameron style stuff.
11:04 Josh Clark? Right.
11:04 Speaker 02 The, the, the resources and the, the toys that these dudes play with.
11:09 Josh Clark? Yeah.
11:09 Speaker 02 It's pretty, pretty cool.
11:10 Josh Clark? Yeah, they'll have a mothership. Well, at least this is what they did for the MH370 search. They have a mothership.
11:15 Speaker 02 Yeah.
11:16 Josh Clark? And I think the mothership goes through and maps the underwater terrain in 3D first. And then that forms their search area. They release some autonomous drones.
11:26 Speaker 02 Yeah, they look like torpedoes.
11:28 Josh Clark? Yep, but they're drones that can be controlled from this mothership. And they go through and scan using sonar.
11:33 Speaker 02 Yeah.
11:33 Josh Clark? They can detail the seabed.
11:35 Speaker 02 It's so cool.
11:36 Josh Clark? And.
11:36 Speaker 02 I R S photography, it's like really cool stuff.
11:39 Josh Clark? It works really well. Ocean, Ocean Infinity has a great track record in finding stuff.
11:44 Speaker 02 They're who I would call.
11:45 Josh Clark? They, they found like a missing submarine from Argentina. They found a bunch of other things. I would call them too, by the way.
11:50 Speaker 02 We should get them on the, uh, we should hire them out for the Tybee Island nuke.
11:54 Josh Clark? We totally should. I'm surprised they haven't just done that for fun.
11:57 Speaker 02 Yeah.
11:58 Josh Clark? As a matter of fact, I think they should.
11:59 Speaker 02 Solve a mystery.
12:00 Josh Clark? Yeah, of the broken arrow.
12:01 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
12:02 Josh Clark? Or the empty quiver.
12:03 Speaker 02 And they're like, we spent how many multi-millions of dollars just to say we solved that mystery?
12:08 Josh Clark? Right.
12:08 Speaker 02 Wait, is someone gonna pay us for this?
12:10 Josh Clark? No, no, they're from Texas, so anytime they find something, they don't think about that. Instead, they just shoot their six shooters into the air.
12:17 Speaker 02 That's right. Forgot about that.
12:18 Josh Clark? Right, so that's fine. That's a good enough for them. It's pay enough. But Ocean Infinity, yeah, they, they know what they're doing and they still couldn't find MH370. There were some things that were found in the search. Number one, this was uncharted, um, territory. And now huge swaths of it are now mapped. They found an underwater volcano, an enormous one that they had no idea existed before. They found a couple of shipwrecks from the 19th century that had just been totally lost.
12:45 Speaker 02 Yeah.
12:45 Josh Clark? But they still found no trace whatsoever of MH370 despite two major searches. And an official finally, uh, an official final report from Australia saying, we don't know, we will probably never know. All we can say is that the flight ended almost certainly in the southern Indian Ocean.
13:05 Speaker 02 That's right, and, um, we should shout out the independent group. Uh, this is an online group of enthusiasts.
13:13 Josh Clark? Internet sleuths.
13:14 Speaker 02 Yeah, who got together to try and figure this out and. It even pointed out like, you know, you hear internet sleuths and you're like, come on, get off the tinfoil hat. But it turns out that these people, a lot of them were engineers. They worked in aviation formerly or currently. And they were really interested in trying to help. And I think ended up helping in a lot of ways.
13:36 Josh Clark? Yeah, and even beyond like tinfoil hats, internet sleuths can, they've done things like identified John Does and Jane Does.
13:43 Speaker 02 Yeah, for sure.
13:44 Josh Clark? They've done a lot of cool stuff, but typically they're not qualified
13:48 Speaker 02 Right.
13:49 Josh Clark? in what they're doing. They're just very interested and very dogged in their pursuits, right? With the Independent Group, these are actual like people with PhDs in electrical engineering and secondary radar and satellites and the stuff that they're doing, they just all happen to come together bound by their common interest in the search for this plane. And if you go and read, I will give you a thousand dollars if you can make it through one of their blog posts.
14:16 Speaker 02 Yeah.
14:17 Josh Clark? It's so dense and so scientific.
14:19 Speaker 02 I looked at one of them.
14:20 Josh Clark? But they're so legitimate that the Australian government, when they wrapped up their search or maybe at some point during it, they actually acknowledged and thanked the Independent Group for their work because they were relying on it to some extent.
14:32 Speaker 02 Yeah, and I'm sure like no one ever in this kind of thing or search and rescue, no one ever wants this to happen. But this is their chance to really get involved and try and do some good.
14:43 Josh Clark? Who, the Independent Group?
14:44 Speaker 02 Yeah.
14:45 Josh Clark? Sure. They also agitated for more transparency in this stuff.
14:50 Speaker 02 And they got it.
14:51 Josh Clark? And I think they got their hands, well, they went in a roundabout way. They made friends with some of the family of MH370, just by the families hearing about what they were doing. And from one of the families, they got the raw MRSAT data. At a time when MRSAT was saying, this actually belongs to Malaysia or Malaysian Airlines, we can't release it. Malaysia was saying, well, no, MRSAT has to release it. They just went around both and got the raw data and were able to really do some much better calculations than they had before with the raw MRSAT data.
15:23 Speaker 02 All right, so let's take a break and we'll go start up our own internet sleuthing concern, get that ramped up.
15:30 Josh Clark? What are we going to get to the bottom of? Puppies?
15:34 Speaker 02 Sure. Why are they so darn cute?
15:36 Josh Clark? That sounds like us.
15:37 Speaker 02 All right, we'll be right back.
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19:09 Josh Clark? Okay Chuck, so.
19:11 Speaker 02 Are we at wreckage?
19:12 Josh Clark? Not quite yet. I want to talk about the, uh, yeah, we are at wreckage. I think that'll tie in nicely to what I was gonna say.
19:19 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean, because this thing disappeared, that is not to say there were no traces, because we have pieces of this plane now.
19:27 Josh Clark? Right.
19:28 Speaker 02 There are people, sort of like these internet sleuths, that are captured by a story such that they will spend a large portion of their life trying to solve it and looking for stuff.
19:40 Josh Clark? And savings.
19:42 Speaker 02 Yeah, sure, a lot of money.
19:43 Josh Clark? I think, I think by people, you really mean person.
19:46 Speaker 02 No, there are a lot of other people. There was one man called Zahid Raza, who searched for years and he was murdered in Madagascar.
19:54 Josh Clark? So he was, his job was as the Malaysian council to Madagascar. He's like the ambassador to Madagascar.
20:00 Speaker 02 Yeah, and the conspiracy-minded will say, no, this guy's finding stuff. And they, they took him out.
20:08 Josh Clark? So there was a dude who did leave his life in, I think, Seattle. And moved, well, actually just started moving around the world, which he did normally anyway, but his name was Blaine Gibson.
20:19 Speaker 02 Yeah, he's an attorney.
20:20 Josh Clark? Yeah, he factors big into that William Langweish article, he talks about him a lot. But he just became moved by this and decided that he was gonna go start finding wreckage, and he has.
20:31 Speaker 02 Yeah.
20:31 Josh Clark? I think a third of the debris found from MH370 has been personally found by Blaine Gibson, just globe trotting, basically.
20:41 Speaker 02 Yeah, amazing.
20:42 Josh Clark? But he figured out if it was the southern Indian Ocean, then this wreckage is probably gonna start to show up somewhere around the southern, the southwest coast of Africa. South Africa, Mozambique.
20:58 Speaker 02 Yeah.
20:58 Josh Clark? Madagascar.
20:59 Speaker 02 Right.
21:00 Josh Clark? And he was right, and the first piece turned up in 2015, it was a six-foot piece of an airplane.
21:07 Speaker 02 Yeah.
21:07 Josh Clark? And it washed up.
21:08 Speaker 02 Can you imagine what he felt like?
21:09 Josh Clark? No, I can't, as a matter of fact. I mean, looking for this and then finding it.
21:14 Speaker 02 It's like searching for a needle in a haystack.
21:16 Josh Clark? But it was found on Reunion Island off of Madagascar, I think it's under the control of Mauritius, and this was a really big deal for a couple of reasons. One, it showed incontrovertibly that the southern arc was correct, that it hadn't flown north into Kazakhstan, that the flight had ended the Indian Ocean.
21:41 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean, it showed that it crashed.
21:43 Josh Clark? That's a big one, it showed that it had broken up, like it wasn't like a fire or anything like that, it had come apart.
21:49 Speaker 02 Well, and it wasn't secretly landed somewhere, because some of those conspiracies get pretty out there.
21:54 Josh Clark? Right, but the other effect that this had was that it devastated the MH370 families who had been holding out hope.
22:01 Speaker 02 Yeah.
22:02 Josh Clark? Because it was disappeared, this airliner vanished, and people were saying, no, it actually is in the Air Base Diego Garcia, under US control. No, it's under Russian control in Kazakhstan.
22:13 Speaker 02 Yeah.
22:14 Josh Clark? It's somewhere, our people are somewhere, maybe, maybe there's this hope. This dashed those hopes.
22:19 Speaker 02 Yeah.
22:20 Josh Clark? And it came a full, more than a year after the plane disappeared. So they had been like really holding on to this hope to a desperate degree for more than a year, and then it was dashed.
22:32 Speaker 02 Yeah.
22:32 Josh Clark? So it was a big deal when it was found, and that was the first of several pieces that washed up in that area.
22:38 Speaker 02 Yeah, this was a part. Of the airplane called a Flaperon. Uh, it's on the back edge of the wing and it's a control surface.
22:47 Josh Clark? You know the kind that just kind of flaps up and down on it? It's a great name for it.
22:50 Speaker 02 It is.
22:52 Josh Clark? Now all know.
22:53 Speaker 02 Uh, and the serial numbers confirmed it, so it was definitely from, uh, MH370. And then, uh, many other pieces have, I think, uh, what dozens? At this point, the pieces of plane have been found.
23:06 Josh Clark? Yeah. What's creepy is other pieces have been found, but they're not from MH370. It's like, well, what planes are these coming from?
23:14 Speaker 02 Oh, well, yeah.
23:16 Josh Clark? That's creepy.
23:17 Speaker 02 Yeah. I, I think maybe every... Is there any way to completely tag every square inch of an airplane?
23:25 Josh Clark? I don't know. I don't know.
23:26 Speaker 02 And not necessarily with a stamp, but, um... I don't know.
23:30 Josh Clark? No, I know what you mean.
23:31 Speaker 02 Some kind of technology.
23:32 Josh Clark? If there's a... You could probably attach some sort of marker to atoms eventually and you would be able to tag any so... any part of any plane down to the atom.
23:41 Speaker 02 Like you find a little four inch piece of metal?
23:44 Josh Clark? Yeah.
23:44 Speaker 02 And you know what it is.
23:45 Josh Clark? You just like analyze the atomic makeup and be like, oh, look, MH370.
23:49 Speaker 02 But that's the future, everyone.
23:50 Josh Clark? That's not too far off. Once we get into nanotechnology, that will be commonplace. Although we'll also probably be able to make planes that don't come apart.
23:57 Speaker 02 Right. Uh, so, the other thing this suggests too is that, um, the plane hit... And we talked earlier about when a plane is descending into an ocean like that, is going super fast.
24:10 Josh Clark? Right.
24:10 Speaker 02 And this really kind of confirms that because they didn't find much wreckage. The plane, um, these parts probably ripped off on the way down. And most of the plane, fairly intact, hit the ocean and went south very, very fast.
24:25 Josh Clark? Yeah, right to the bottom.
24:26 Speaker 02 Right to the bottom.
24:27 Josh Clark? So this also dashed the hopes of the families even further in that that those four electronic location transmitters?
24:35 Speaker 02 Yeah.
24:35 Josh Clark? The beacon, the life beacons that were supposed to go off and all four failed?
24:38 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
24:39 Josh Clark? Uh, some family members and a lot of conspiracy theorists are saying, all four of those failing? No way.
24:44 Speaker 02 Yeah.
24:45 Josh Clark? It means that the plane didn't descend quickly, didn't catch fire, didn't hit water, because some of those transmitters are supposed to go off when they hit water.
24:54 Speaker 02 Right.
24:54 Josh Clark? But if they broke up on the way down.
24:57 Speaker 02 Right.
24:57 Josh Clark? Because here's the thing, is the planes, if it entered a steep decline at 600 miles an hour, which is about what they think it was cruising at, if it drops from 35,000 feet at 600 miles an hour within two minutes, it's going to just break up either on the way down or the moment it hits water.
25:14 Speaker 02 Yeah.
25:14 Josh Clark? So much so that some of these beacons that are designed for this scenario are not going to function.
25:19 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
25:20 Josh Clark? And there's another, there is one beacon that is designed to go off on impact. It's designed for that kind of thing. But it needs 50 seconds above water.
25:30 Speaker 02 Right.
25:31 Josh Clark? To transmit to the satellite, so they think this thing hits so fast that that beacon might have just gone right down underwater and not been able to transmit in that 50 seconds. So it's an explanation that the plane came apart in the Southern Indian Ocean, didn't just crash in the Southern Indian Ocean, it came into a million pieces in the Southern Indian Ocean.
25:52 Speaker 02 Yeah, and you know, we mentioned the black boxes in the previous episode. Obviously, we don't have these black boxes. They're down there with everything else. Haven't recovered anything like that.
26:02 Josh Clark? But they think that they probably wouldn't tell much of a story anyway.
26:06 Speaker 02 No, not unless there was some sort of final communications or something.
26:11 Josh Clark? That's what it would take. It would take whoever was in charge of the plane at that time still, talking and explaining. And if you were the only person alive on this plane, who would you be talking to?
26:25 Speaker 02 Well, let's go ahead and talk about who this might be, because all indications point that it was the captain of the airplane himself, Captain Shaw.
26:34 Josh Clark? Yep, Captain Zahari Ahmad Shaw.
26:36 Speaker 02 That's right. So the wreckage, basically, I mean, there's a lot of clues, again, we can't say anything for sure.
26:43 Josh Clark? No.
26:44 Speaker 02 But no one ever claimed, you know, it's unlikely that it was terrorists, because... One thing terrorists do, which is what makes them terrorists, is claim responsibility.
26:52 Josh Clark? They like to brag.
26:53 Speaker 02 Well, so everyone knows who it was.
26:54 Josh Clark? Right.
26:55 Speaker 02 No one did this. No one even falsely did this.
26:58 Josh Clark? Right.
26:58 Speaker 02 Which happens sometimes.
26:59 Josh Clark? Yeah.
27:00 Speaker 02 The same can be said for a kidnapping, because there are some theories about that. That there were some important people aboard that they wanted to disappear or something.
27:09 Josh Clark? Right. Like, if you were kidnapping somebody, you want them alive, and they can't be alive if the plane's in a million pieces in the southern Indian Ocean.
27:17 Speaker 02 That's right. And there were only two people on that plane who knew and had the knowledge and access to do this stuff, and that was Captain Shaw and First Officer Hamid.
27:30 Josh Clark? Also, yeah, there's something really important to point out here, too, Chuck. There was no distress call.
27:35 Speaker 02 Right.
27:35 Josh Clark? And for, if it was a hijacking, between the time that Zahari said, "Goodnight, Malaysian 370."
27:42 Speaker 02 Yes.
27:43 Josh Clark? And the transponder went off at exactly the right time, right when it hit a Ho Chi Minh air traffic control's jurisdiction, it would have taken a minute for terrorists to make their way into the cockpit, which was sealed with an electronic lock, super bolted. It would have taken less than a minute at a precise moment in time for terrorists to take control of the plane.
28:04 Speaker 02 Yeah.
28:05 Josh Clark? That just would not have happened.
28:06 Speaker 02 No. The idea that these two were working together is not very plausible. The idea that it was First Officer Hamid himself is not plausible, because, like we said, this is a Green Horn. He was just getting started in his career. He was super happy to be, to have this job, this great job, flying the Pride of Malaysia. Nothing at all points that he had anything to do with this.
28:33 Josh Clark? No, it doesn't. And also, it would have been much harder for him to get Captain Shaw out of the cockpit.
28:41 Speaker 02 Yeah, like, "Why don't you go take a bathroom break?"
28:44 Josh Clark? Yeah, Captain Shaw would have been like,
28:45 Speaker 02 "I don't need to."
28:46 Josh Clark? "I'm the boss of you."
28:47 Speaker 02 He's like, "No, but seriously, go do it." I'm wondering how Captain Shaw might have gotten him out.
28:52 Josh Clark? So, one thing, language. This is a well I will keep going back to all day long.
28:57 Speaker 02 The Langwaisch Well?
28:57 Josh Clark? Yeah. He said that Captain Shaw was known as a, somebody who wanted to know all the details of what was going on, so it would have been very normal.
29:09 Speaker 02 Go back and check on something?
29:10 Josh Clark? Exactly. It would have been very normal, it would have been very easy, and First Officer Hamid would have hopped right up and gone right out of the cockpit, leaving Shaw alone, to lock the door, lock him out.
29:20 Speaker 02 Yep, and that's all it took.
29:21 Josh Clark? That's all it took.
29:22 Speaker 02 So, when you start, we said that the report from the Malaysian police came back as a glowing report for Shaw. When you start doing a little digging around, that's not exactly the case. Before this plane disappeared, in the months before, he had separated from his wife, he was living by himself, apparently was having an affair with a married woman.
29:45 Josh Clark? I think a platonic affair, but a weird emotional affair.
29:48 Speaker 02 Yeah.
29:49 Josh Clark? It also involved her children that he was really into.
29:52 Speaker 02 Right. He apparently was very big on social media, but he did not leave like a Facebook post.
30:00 Josh Clark? No suicide note?
30:01 Speaker 02 No suicide note, no video, and he was on YouTube. He did DIY repair things on YouTube, videos, which is pretty remarkable.
30:09 Josh Clark? Yeah.
30:10 Speaker 02 But here's the big clue, to me and everyone else, is that he, Microsoft has this flight simulator that's a lot of fun. I don't know if you've ever played around with one of those?
30:20 Josh Clark? Not for many, many years.
30:22 Speaker 02 It's a ton of fun. I've crashed tons of planes, because it's really hard, as it turns out, to fly one of these. But he loved doing this. He loved flying these. It was one of his hobby, was flying this flight sim. So, they were able to get into the flights that he flew preceding this disappearance, and one of them really closely matches the flight path of MH370, right into the Indian Ocean. Some people might say like, hey, listen, that doesn't prove anything. But all the other flights that he had played around with, he took from takeoff to landing. This is the only one where he jumped forward like a podcast commercial.
31:08 Josh Clark? Don't say that.
31:09 Speaker 02 He's skipping forward in time on that flight alone to see how these fuel calculations were going to play out and where this plane would be when it ran out of fuel over the Indian Ocean. Flight sim over.
31:22 Josh Clark? Right.
31:23 Speaker 02 That is so suspicious, like, I mean, it's, I know you can speculate, but it's almost an open and shut case when you hear that.
31:32 Josh Clark? It's so suspicious. I saw one member of the independent group said that he left it as a breadcrumb.
31:38 Speaker 02 Oh, interesting.
31:38 Josh Clark? You know, that like, he wouldn't have learned anything from Microsoft Flight Simulator, which is, to a guy in a 777, basically a game, you know, that he was just basically leaving something behind. That was, that was one guy's interpretation in the independent group.
31:53 Speaker 02 Well, the very least, he could say, if I, if I'm here and I'm on this header, and I put it on autopilot, who knows, he may have killed himself.
32:01 Josh Clark? Yeah.
32:02 Speaker 02 He may have wanted that thing to fly into the ocean for sure.
32:05 Josh Clark? So, the, the idea is that Captain Zahari took control of the plane by locking First Officer Hamid out of the cockpit, turned off the electrical system, took the, the 777 in a hard turn, backtracking, and probably going up to about 40,000 feet at the same time, accelerating the effects of depressurization, depressurization in the cabin.
32:32 Speaker 02 Yeah, killing everyone on board.
32:33 Josh Clark? Killing everyone on board, putting it on autopilot and setting a course for the Southern Indian Ocean with a plane full of dead people for a good six something hours. He may have killed himself at some point, he may not. He, there's some data that suggests that the plane running out of fuel and dropping from the sky would not have hit the ocean as hard as the wreckage suggests that it hit, and that it might have taken somebody driving the plane into the ocean.
33:04 Speaker 02 Oh, really?
33:05 Josh Clark? So, he may have been alive to the very bitter end. And if he was a 777 pilot, dying by crashing a plane in the ocean, I'm betting that he wouldn't have killed himself before the crash. It just doesn't seem right. But the idea is that he killed his passengers and then killed himself by crashing this plane into the Southern Indian Ocean. And this, like, the mind recoils from that idea. But the problem is, it's happened before. Pilots have killed their passengers.
33:34 Speaker 02 At least four times.
33:35 Josh Clark? Yes, multiple times in the history of air travel.
33:38 Speaker 02 Yeah, and here's the other final clue, which to me is kind of the cherry on top, is that...
33:44 Josh Clark? Really, I found this one tough to...
33:47 Speaker 02 Oh, really?
33:47 Josh Clark? Yeah.
33:48 Speaker 02 Oh, I didn't think so, because we mentioned earlier, he took a very deliberate path to do a little flyby of Penang Island that was out of the way, and he grew up on Penang Island. And, I don't know, man, I don't think that was...
34:01 Josh Clark? So that's it?
34:01 Speaker 02 I don't think that was an accident.
34:03 Josh Clark? Okay.
34:03 Speaker 02 I think a final little flyby makes sense.
34:08 Josh Clark? I mean, I could see it, sure. To me, it's the simulator.
34:12 Speaker 02 Well, I think...
34:12 Josh Clark? It's like a smoking gun.
34:13 Speaker 02 Both those things to me.
34:15 Josh Clark? So, we were saying that people have done this before, right?
34:19 Speaker 02 Yeah, German Wings Flight 9525.
34:23 Josh Clark? I remember that one.
34:24 Speaker 02 LAM Mozambique 470, Egypt Air 990, and Silk Air...
34:31 Josh Clark? That's another Langmuir's article you should read.
34:32 Speaker 02 I'm not reading any of these.
34:33 Josh Clark? You got it, man, he's so good, Chuck.
34:36 Speaker 02 Then Silk Air Flight 185. They murdered everyone on board.
34:41 Josh Clark? Yep. Like, there's no other way to take your own life.
34:45 Speaker 02 Yeah.
34:46 Josh Clark? There's so many other ways to take your own life that don't involve the innocent lives of your passengers, that this is one of the most despicable things you can possibly do.
34:55 Speaker 02 Absolutely.
34:55 Josh Clark? And so, in response, a lot of people...
34:57 Speaker 02 It's like a suicide bomber.
34:58 Josh Clark? Sure.
34:59 Speaker 02 You know?
34:59 Josh Clark? A lot of people say, "There's no way he did this," including his family. They are like, "No, this guy did not do that, he was a nice guy, he wouldn't kill a bunch of people." But if you follow the evidence, and again, nobody can say for certain, and probably no one will ever be able to say that it was Captain Shaw that did this. But if you follow the evidence and you form your own opinion, there's, it's pretty convincing that he did.
35:23 Speaker 02 Yeah.
35:24 Josh Clark? But a lot of people say, "No, no way." And because they've not been able to explain what happened, it's formed this vacuum that's being filled by conspiracy theories.
35:34 Speaker 02 Right.
35:34 Josh Clark? And there's a lot of them.
35:36 Speaker 02 Yeah, so we'll take our last break here, and we will, we're not going to go too deep into those, but we will kind of rattle off some of the leading ones right after this.
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37:01 Josh Clark? Everyone has a story to tell. What's yours? The moment you met your partner, landed that promotion? For people living with a rare disease, life can feel divided into before the diagnosis and all the after moments that follow. On Voices of VivGart, VivGart is also known as its generic name, Fgart Tigamod Alpha F-Cab, you'll hear powerful stories from people facing challenges and embracing a life with a rare disease.
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39:15 Josh Clark? And Chuck, before we rattle off some of these conspiracy theories, I want to say because we can't explain this, nobody can say that it was Captain Shaw.
39:23 Speaker 03 Sure.
39:24 Josh Clark? There are some things you can say it's not, like it wasn't an accident. It wasn't, it wasn't terrorists or anything like that.
39:31 Speaker 03 Yeah.
39:31 Josh Clark? But you can't say definitively that, yes, it was Captain Shaw. And if this floats your boat, there's a whole rabbit hole for you to dive down with MH370. There's a lot of other interpretations, but this seems to be among air disaster experts, the likeliest explanation.
39:50 Speaker 03 Yeah, we are not saying, to be clear, that it was Captain Shaw.
39:54 Josh Clark? Nobody can say that it was.
39:55 Speaker 03 Yeah, we're just sort of following Occam's razor here and the findings of experts. Like you said, it's the cleanest explanation there is.
40:04 Josh Clark? Yep.
40:06 Speaker 03 All right, well, some things that aren't so clean. Should we go over some of these? This was compiled by theweek.co.uk.
40:14 Josh Clark? The Week?
40:14 Speaker 03 I didn't see, yeah.
40:16 Speaker 02 I didn't see any authorship, though, on this one.
40:21 Josh Clark? Yeah, maybe they're like The Economist and they don't, it's all The Economist speaking. It's all The Week speaking, you know what I mean?
40:26 Speaker 02 Yeah, exactly. They're a collective. So, let me see here. One of these is that Captain Shaw parachuted out of the plane to meet that woman on a boat.
40:38 Josh Clark? Totally unnecessary because he and his wife had already separated.
40:43 Speaker 02 Yeah.
40:43 Josh Clark? He was living alone.
40:44 Speaker 02 That's right. But that was actually written by a journalist in a book called The Hunt for MH370 by E. Ann Higgins.
40:51 Josh Clark? Okay.
40:53 Speaker 02 What else? This one is interesting, that it was cyber-hijacked. This is in another book called Beneath Another Sky: A Global Journey Into History. And this is the suggestion that Boeing's Honeywell Uninterruptible Autopilot Onboard Computer was hacked and reprogrammed.
41:12 Josh Clark? Yeah, there's, that ties into another one, that the CIA got their hands on the plane remotely. But I don't know that it's true, but there's a definite thread through conspiracy-minded groups that after 9/11, they have engineered some sort of mechanism onto airliners so that they can be remotely controlled in case they are hijacked, so nobody can fly something into the World Trade Center or anything like that again.
41:38 Speaker 02 Makes sense.
41:39 Josh Clark? It does make sense. It makes so much sense that I'm like, wait, did they actually do that? But that's the, that's like step one to that conspiracy theory. Step one is that that exists, and then step two is that somebody used it to vanish MH370.
41:54 Speaker 02 Yeah.
41:56 Speaker 02 What else? Asian Bermuda Triangle?
41:58 Josh Clark? No.
41:59 Speaker 02 Yeah, should we just?
42:01 Josh Clark? That's all you need to say.
42:02 Speaker 02 Well, this one, I thought it was funny because it said that...
42:07 Speaker 02 When you look at where it crashed, it's the exact opposite of the Bermuda Triangle on the other side of the globe. And then I guess someone just looked and they were like, um, no, it's actually not.
42:17 Josh Clark? Right.
42:17 Speaker 02 So go ahead and throw that down the tubes.
42:19 Josh Clark? Maybe in the general neighborhood, but definitely not on the.
42:22 Speaker 02 And also, there's no Bermuda Triangle causing plane crashes.
42:25 Josh Clark? Yeah, that's, that's a big, big issue with that.
42:27 Speaker 02 What, what do you got?
42:28 Josh Clark? Um, another one is that, uh, that it was used as MH17. Remember I said that 2014 was a terrible year for Malaysian Airlines? And the idea is that they hijacked, they, meaning probably the CIA or the US government or some shadowy cabal, hijacked MH370, safely landed it in some, at Diego Garcia Air Base or somewhere under US control, um, killed everybody, or maybe they were dead from hypoxia to begin with anyway.
42:59 Speaker 02 Yeah.
43:00 Josh Clark? Um, put them in freezers and then staged this, changed the call sign from a zero or from an O to a D on the plane.
43:09 Speaker 02 Easy enough.
43:10 Josh Clark? Um, and then used it to be shot down over Ukraine. And supposedly there's reports from Ukrainian journalists and humanitarian workers and even Ukrainian rebels saying that the, the corpses that fell from this, this shot down plane, MH17 over Ukraine, were already decomposing and rotting as if they died weeks before. Um, I've not found anybody who actually said that or anything like that, but that's the, the whole thing is that it was a big false flag operation.
43:41 Speaker 02 Okay.
43:42 Josh Clark? But isn't it nuts that like, if you can't explain something like a disappeared airliner?
43:47 Speaker 02 Right.
43:47 Josh Clark? People go onto the internet and write books and say, here's what really happened.
43:50 Speaker 02 Yeah.
43:51 Josh Clark? And then it's this.
43:52 Speaker 02 Yeah.
43:53 Josh Clark? Think about the level of distrust we have for the people running the show that this has an audience.
43:58 Speaker 02 Yeah.
43:59 Josh Clark? Like, I do not blame anybody who believes stuff like this because we've been lied to for so long.
44:04 Speaker 02 Yeah.
44:05 Josh Clark? That you can buy this.
44:06 Speaker 02 Yeah.
44:07 Josh Clark? You know, that's that some government agency would hijack a plane, kill everybody, and then use it to pin it on, um, you know, Putin-controlled, uh, Ukrainian forces.
44:18 Speaker 02 Right.
44:19 Josh Clark? Come on.
44:20 Speaker 02 Yeah, it was Hunter Biden.
44:22 Speaker 02 So here's another one that I thought was interesting and not I'm saying it's interesting is like, could it be? But if you go to look at passengers on an airplane and try and find a thread, you might want to look at the fact that there are 20 people that worked for a company.
44:39 Josh Clark? Oh, yeah.
44:40 Speaker 02 All onboard called Freescale Semiconductor. So I hear that and I think, well, we should at least look into this.
44:46 Josh Clark? Sure.
44:47 Speaker 02 Is there any reason someone would want to tank this company? Or tank 20 people that worked, important people that worked for this company? And the theory is that they might have been killed by a plane crash, either for secret technology or to manipulate stock prices.
45:03 Josh Clark? Right. And apparently that company helped the NSA or the CIA or the US government in general create some of its Prism program surveillance technology. So they were supposedly already in cahoots with shadowy agencies within the US government to begin with. And since this plane was headed to Beijing, China.
45:23 Speaker 02 Right.
45:23 Josh Clark? Perhaps these, this company was going over to work with China now and the CIA didn't like that, so they did this. Pretty interesting. As you said, interesting.
45:33 Speaker 02 Yeah, that's all it is.
45:34 Josh Clark? Yeah.
45:35 Speaker 02 And then there are other various ones from life insurance scams to false flag hijackings.
45:41 Josh Clark? Yeah.
45:42 Speaker 02 To alien abductions. Apparently 5% of Americans surveyed believe it was abducted by aliens.
45:49 Josh Clark? Believe MH370 was abducted by aliens? I saw that and my brain wouldn't accept that. I think I just saw it as 5% of Americans believe in alien abductions.
45:58 Speaker 02 No, I think.
45:59 Josh Clark? I don't, I can't hear what you're about to say.
46:00 Speaker 02 It's just some dumb survey.
46:03 Josh Clark? Okay. You got anything else?
46:05 Speaker 02 No.
46:06 Josh Clark? Well, if you want to know more about MH370, friend, meet your new hobby because it is all over the internet. And you can follow whatever thread you like. And since I said that, it's time for listener mail.
46:19 Speaker 02 This one's a bit long, but boy, is it a good one. And a super important one for this gentleman and his family. Hey, guys, my name's Tyler. I live in Michigan. I've got a story for you. The Sunday before Thanksgiving, my family and I woke up and went around business as usual. I was playing a video game with my two boys, and my wife said she was going out to the garage to get something and walked out the door. After about 10 minutes, my neighbor banged on the door. I opened it to see my next-door neighbor pointing at my wife, laying motionless on the ground in front of my car. Full-on panic mode set in. I ran the 10 feet or so to find her not breathing, fingers and face already blue, and my neighbor started calling 911. Luckily, I remembered some advice from your CPR episode.
47:02 Speaker 02 Not only how much pressure to apply to the sternum, which is a lot, but the rhythm. No. And I began to sing "Staying Alive." That is so great. By The Bee Gees in my head as I did the chest compressions. Trying to sing along while my adrenaline was pumping was not easy, but I did my best to stay calm and keep singing that part of the song in my head. The colors started coming back to her face a little bit after I started. The EMTs and police were at my house within five minutes and used a defibr... I always mess that word up. ...defibrillator on her three times, gave her three shots of epinephrine. Oh, my gosh. Before they finally got her heart beating again. Her brain went without blood for 20 minutes, though, and as a result, she's been diagnosed with brain damage. She's got a long road to recovery ahead of her, but the doctors think she has a good
47:46 Speaker 02 chance because of her age. Her heart had a severe arrhythmia that ultimately caused cardiac arrest. I'm doing the best I can for her and my kids while she heals. I'm the primary provider for my family while my wife was the primary caregiver. Having to take off work and take care of my kids has been really scary, but I've gotten tremendous support from friends and family here in my time of need. So I just want to thank you guys for the work you do. Without your podcast, I likely would have been burying my wife instead of visiting her in the hospital. What?
48:19 Speaker 02 This is like Christmas time, too.
48:21 Josh Clark? Chuck, I wasn't prepared for this one. You could have given me like-
48:23 Speaker 02 Sorry.
48:23 Josh Clark? Stuck me in the hand with a needle or something first.
48:26 Speaker 02 Uh, sincerely, thank you both so much. That is from Tyler Elliott. He said, "If you guys read this on the show, could you shout out my best friend, Justin?"
48:33 Josh Clark? Sure.
48:33 Speaker 02 He got me into the show back in the day and has been there for me and my family every step of the way.
48:37 Josh Clark? So Justin is the one who should be thanked, really.
48:40 Speaker 02 It all, in a weird way, comes back to Justin.
48:42 Josh Clark? Man, what is his name again?
48:44 Speaker 02 Tyler Elliott, and I hope your wife is recovering and-
48:47 Josh Clark? Yeah, same here, Tyler.
48:48 Speaker 02 Best of luck to you, man. That's a, quite a harrowing experience.
48:52 Josh Clark? Not only are we thinking of you, but everybody listening to this podcast right now is thinking about you, too.
48:57 Speaker 02 That's right. Sending out the best vibes into the universe.
49:00 Josh Clark? Agreed. Wow. Well, if you want to try to top Tyler's email, best of luck.
49:05 Speaker 02 Good luck.
49:06 Josh Clark? You can go on to stuffyoushouldknow.com and check out our social links there, and you can also send us an email yourself to [email protected] .
49:18 Speaker 00 Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
49:33 Josh Clark? Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota Ford Ability, and it starts with a great deal on an off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places.
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