Miquita Oliver: "I thought I hated you Fearne, I was actually scared!" Debunking female rivalry

Back in the noughties, Miquita Oliver thought Fearne Cotton was an irritatingly gorgeous, successful presenter – everything she wasn’t. Fearne was jealous Miquita was part of the TV cool gang. In reality? Fearne worried she was an unsophisticated nerd, and Miquita was feeling like the fat, ugly sidekick. In this episode, live from the Happy Place Festival, Fearne and Miquita chat for the first time in decades, finally able to see that it was press cruelty that created their feud. They talk through how to cope if you feel projection, assumption, or a misunderstanding have created a rift between you and a friend. Miquita also explores why she felt the need to drink to stay in a haze for much of her younger years, and why getting curious about why she felt like sh*t was the first step to getting her life back on track. Plus: how to dream bigger for yourself, and why adults need to play more! If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Matt Edmondson and Mollie King https://pod.fo/e/3a1d48 Ruth Langsford https://pod.fo/e/3b8e28 Ashley James https://pod.fo/e/38b6c2 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, how are you lovely lot doing? A massive welcome to Happy Place with me Fern Cotton. Today, let's go back to this summer's Happy Place Festival. I'm chatting to Makita Oliver.

• 0:14Speaker 01

  I was terrified of Fern. I thought that Fern was everything a TV presenter should be. You're very beautiful with blonde hair and you're very slim. And I felt very black and overweight and that my hair wasn't right. And then the press sort of compounded that fact. So I was like, oh, I hate Fern Cotton. It's Fern Cotton that I don't like because I was scared. The whole thing made me fearful. And that's me going to that deep darker place of why? Why did I feel like that? And then I had this like fucking revelation. And I was like, oh my God, it was the press's fault.

• 0:49Fearne Cotton?

  Crikey, where do I begin with this podcast? This podcast, right? I feel so lucky. I've been doing this podcast for nearly nine years. And there have been plenty of moments where I've felt like an episode has changed me in some way. I've left it learning something. I've left it feeling better about myself. I've left it carrying less shame, like whatever it might be. But this one, this one was truly healing. That could sound like really cringey, but I mean it in its, in like the truest, truest sense. So the backstory, and we go into it a little bit, but for anyone that doesn't know the backstory, me and Makita have been orbiting each other since like the late 90s.

• 1:32Fearne Cotton?

  When I started in TV in about 97, I think she was like the year or a couple of years after. And we're both young, up and coming presenters, often at the same events. Often we'd, you know, be at, I don't know what it'd be like, the MTV Awards or whatever. It'd be all at the Brits. We'd sort of see each other from across the room, but we gave each other a wide berth. And I was aware that I was often the brunt of jokes on Pop World, which I felt not even upset about. I was embarrassed. I thought, oh God, I'm so uncool. That's why this is happening. And also Makita said something in an interview about me, which I'll fess up. I hadn't read what the wording was until the week before the pod.

• 2:15Fearne Cotton?

  I thought, I better look just to see why she got sacked from the BBC. And she called me a devil woman, which I actually think is hilarious because it's quite a nebulous term. It's not like she was saying she's a thick blonde knobhead. Like it was, it was nebulous enough for me to like not take offence now. And also I hold no grudge. And this is certainly not an exercise in me highlighting these flaws on stage with Makita so that she has to repent her sins. I don't need her to do that. I fucked up many times in my own career. I've been mean to people. We all have, all of us have been shitty to other people.

• 2:55Fearne Cotton?

  But what this did, this episode was allow us to bridge this huge gap that had been created because we massively misunderstood each other. So I went through all of those years. I mean, obviously not constantly. It wasn't like I was thinking about this every day, but I went through all of many of those years feeling like uncool, a nerd, too enthusiastic and not in the cool gang. And Makita didn't think of me in that way. She saw me as something entirely different, which you'll hear in a moment, which was why we were able to bridge this gap. So last year Makita put out a video on Instagram saying that she had had a lot of shit from the press back in the day and it had made her really embody the words the press were using to describe her.

• 3:41Fearne Cotton?

  And I felt so sad watching that because I thought, I felt exactly the same. I've been called every name under the sun by journalists, everything from, you know, like unsophisticated to journalists wishing my death. And I don't mean that in a kind of frivolous way, like literally journalists saying they wish I was dead. And as a young person, it's really hard to just let that be water off a duck's back. I for years took it on board and felt like a piece of shit, if I'm really honest with you, to the point where I sort of stopped doing telly. So I sent a true heartfelt response to her video, to her via DM. And I just said, I'm so grateful for you putting that video out there because I feel

• 4:24Fearne Cotton?

  exactly the same as you, that it's impacted me so hugely. And it's something I still have to go to therapy about and unpick all the time. And it affects me outside of work in just like how I move through the world. And it was maybe a bit risky sending that message because she could have just gone, she could have ignored me and I would have felt even more of a loser, maybe. I don't know, but I thought it was worth the risk. But she got back to me and she said, thank you so much for sending that message. That means a lot. And I was like, oh my God, this is the start of like us repairing all of it. So then she did an episode of Miss Me and in that episode she talked about all of it and that she had talked about the shame she felt around it in therapy and she cried.

• 5:06Fearne Cotton?

  And I was so moved by her honesty and her willingness to be very real about it. So I was like, let's do a podcast. Let's get her on and let's fucking chat about all this. And I don't want to spoil anything for you listening to this episode, but oh, I've got goosebumps thinking about it. It was so fucking great. And hey, look, this is a much longer intro than I'd normally do, but I need to explain explicitly the backstory for you to understand how powerful this experience was for both of us. So sit back and enjoy.

• 5:47Speaker 02

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• 6:51Fearne Cotton?

  Right, let's crack on. Here's the show.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  Hi Happy Place. Hi, how are we doing? We're good. Everyone's so good. Everyone's so happy. Everyone is happy.

• 7:22Fearne Cotton?

  I was like, everyone's in a really bad mood at Happy Place. It just would not work.

• 7:26Speaker 01

  It wouldn't, but also I can't be here for it. Like turn up as you are. If you feel a bit shit, absolutely fine. So look, I am so happy to not only do this, but just before we came out, we had a chat just in our little backstage tent area. And it's actually the first time we've properly spoken in real life.

• 7:46Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 7:47Speaker 01

  Like it's weird.

• 7:48Fearne Cotton?

  No, you can do swearing.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  You can do swearing.

• 7:50Fearne Cotton?

  No, you're right.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  It is. It doesn't feel like it. Because I, I watch, I watch Miss Me, I love you and Jordan. So part of me feels like, you know, when you watch a podcast, something you love, you feel like, oh yeah, I hang out with this person. We've actually never.

• 8:04Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, we've actually like never really spoken.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  No, but that's so insane because of, because of the whole journey we've had for, because both Fern and I started presenting when we were teenagers.

• 8:13Fearne Cotton?

  Too young.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Thank God it didn't ruin us. And I think that I was, so that was always, that's why I was always very aware of you because we were both so young in this strange world, right? And I think even then I thought we hung out all the time, but we didn't even then really. We just were on TV shows at the same time. So you're in, you're inhabiting the same world.

• 8:34Fearne Cotton?

  We were in, we were orbiting each other constantly.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, orbiting.

• 8:37Fearne Cotton?

  And sometimes really closely.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Which, you're in the YouTube route.

• 8:42Fearne Cotton?

  I believe when I was like dating one of your friends.

• 8:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:44Fearne Cotton?

  I think we were in the same room a lot.

• 8:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, she started dating Steve from T4. Everyone wanted him. Well done, Fern.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  No, it was like his heyday. It was like.

• 8:58Fearne Cotton?

  His heyday?

• 8:59Speaker 01

  It was a big time for Steve Jones.

• 9:00Fearne Cotton?

  Wow.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  And yeah, suddenly we were like, oh, this is how we hang out.

• 9:05Fearne Cotton?

  I was as surprised as you were. Really strange combo of people.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  Of course, Steve Ross.

• 9:11Fearne Cotton?

  I know, but it's we, I don't know how much you guys know, but me and Makita have like a really weird history.

• 9:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, very real.

• 9:19Fearne Cotton?

  Because of our jobs, but also how society pits women against each other. So if we go right back to the start, we both started when I was 16, you were 17 when you started Pop World. We're in a really weird job for starters, where you become instantly exposed to lots of people that don't know you. And I think it takes a very resilient mind to not be impacted by it. I know I was impacted by it negatively in all different ways. And I wonder what that felt like for you.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  Well, this is the great thing about being in your 40s. I don't know whether anyone else in their 40s feels this or you, Fern, but like I started getting curious about why. So instead of like, I did this or this happened, I started going, what's the why of that thing, right? And my relationship with you came up because you'd messaged me last year. And again, we probably hadn't even messaged or anything for 10, 15 years, or maybe even ever.

• 10:18Fearne Cotton?

  Ever.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  What are we talking about? But I thought we had this relationship. But really, it was this relationship that I sort of built in my head because of the press at the time. And we have to remember, this is early noughties press who were.

• 10:33Fearne Cotton?

  Vile.

• 10:34Speaker 01

  Vile, ruthless, I would say kind of violent, actually. With the language they used about us and women in the media at that time. And I was terrified of Fern. I thought that Fern was everything a TV presenter should be and how you looked. You're very beautiful with blonde hair and you're very slim. And I felt very black and overweight and that my hair wasn't right. And then the press sort of compounded that fact. So I was like, oh, I hate Fern Cotton. It's Fern Cotton that I don't like. Because I was scared. The whole thing made me fearful. And that's me going to that deep darker place of why? Why did I feel like that?

• 11:16Speaker 01

  And then I had this like fucking revelation. I was like, oh my God, it was the press's fault. It was the sun's fault. It wasn't our fault.

• 11:24Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  Bastards.

• 11:25Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 11:26Speaker 01

  And then, and I sort of had that and then you messaged me last year. So I think the world was sort of bringing us together, in my head, back together, but actually really together for the first time. And Fern sent me a message last year when I was in hell. Cause I was, I'd lost my flat because of very external circumstances. So I was living on my mum's sofa, feeling like a failure, even though I was probably at the height of my career. And you sent me a message about a clip and I was like, oh, hi. And I really needed to hear what you said. And I really felt lifted from it.

• 11:58Fearne Cotton?

  Well, what you said was very impactful. So you'd put this video out saying how the press had said certain things about you. And then you start to kind of embody what you read about yourself.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 12:09Fearne Cotton?

  And this is the, this is the really interesting thing. And I think this applies to so many women. It's not, this is not just a conversation about women who happen to have these weird jobs to the public eye. It's women and friendships and dynamics. Is that there's this void between two people with zero communication. And all it is is assumption and like a projection about who the other person is. So in my eyes, you were the coolest person out there in the cool gang. And you hang out with the cool people. And I'm a nerdy, I've done kids TV where I'm like, hey, I'm wearing bunches. And I talk about, you know, like, I just felt like the biggest geek ever. And you're hanging out with Lily Allen and all the cool guys. And I'm just this absolute loser. So.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  Isn't that funny?

• 12:53Fearne Cotton?

  But there's this big void that's. No, and also like, we were just chatting back there about, we've both got obviously interesting relationships with the TV industry and how we've navigated it. And, and I was telling you back there that I've been sacked, I don't know, how many times? Three, four, could be five times from jobs, often with no explanation. Or even sometimes I wasn't told. I'd put the telly on and go, oh, I guess I'm not doing that anymore.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 13:21Fearne Cotton?

  Someone else doing it. Okay, that's interesting. Don't tell me.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  I had no idea that you'd ever experienced anything like being fired.

• 13:26Fearne Cotton?

  Like this void where we don't know. And we make all these assumptions, like to me, you're just cool, full stop. And I'm stupid, a bit thick, not sophisticated, a nerd. And then I'm something else.

• 13:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, to me, you're successful, unsackable. And like threateningly good. Like it's so weird what a bit of conversation does, where it can get you.

• 13:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  What freedom it brings.

• 13:51Fearne Cotton?

  But also like for us, that was decades. Like decades. And it's weird how it can just keep going and neither person knows why or what the beef is or what the reasons are. It's just all based on what our assumptions are of the other person. And I think that's where just being so honest is so healing.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  And maybe you do have to get a bit older to get to that like scary honesty.

• 14:18Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  The honesty that shakes you and freaks you out. You know, what happened when we, when I spoke about my relationship with Fern and our history, then the clip went, I refuse to say went viral. It sounds so cheesy, but it did very well.

• 14:31Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 14:31Speaker 01

  And what was great for me was that the response was not about, oh, it's nice that these two women, as you were saying, in the media have managed to like reunite. No, no, no. It was a conversation with loads of other women talking about their relationship with the other women in their life. And external circumstances changing those relationships. And as you said, creating these voids where assumption fills. And then we're coming, we're approaching each other with fear and threat and anger.

• 15:00Fearne Cotton?

  Completely. Like when I saw that video that you put out, I felt nothing but like a connection with you. Cause there's very few people who I could probably go, oh my God, like how awful that feels to have the press say, you're this, which we've all had. I've absolutely had it and for different reasons, but I've had all the horrible things written about me and.

• 15:21Speaker 01

  Cause that's what you said in your message and I couldn't believe it. I was like.

• 15:24Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my God.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  I thought you'd escaped all that.

• 15:25Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, no, no, no. Absolutely not. And I think it's, it's a weird thing to go through because they're usually like older male journalists that are writing things. And it sticks with you. Like, do you, I can remember verbatim lines that people have written about me.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  Oh God, yeah. Lily got married and I was her bridesmaid. And the title was My Big Fat Ugly Bridesmaid, because My Big Fat Great Wedding had come out. And I was like, I've shamed Lily at her wedding. I've, I've been her fat, ugly friend on a day where everything should look perfect. And I didn't even look that bad. They just had decided that's what I was to her, this sort of ugly fat sidekick. And it was devastating. That, that line haunts me still.

• 16:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 16:07Speaker 01

  Isn't that?

• 16:08Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my God, I had the same.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  They live in you, these lines.

• 16:11Fearne Cotton?

  They live in you. I remember reading once, I had done a TV show about like breaking Guinness World Records, whatever, like in my twenties. And we had had to do a bungee jump challenge. And the journalist had written, it's a shame that the rope hadn't snapped. And I was like, that, and that's like 20 years ago. And I still remember reading it. And weird, it's weird how we internalize it. We don't go, God, that's really awful that person felt they could write that. We go, I'm dreadful. I'm that bad on the telly that someone wants me dead. And, and I think there was no escape from that, that era of journalism where we turned on ourselves. And therefore we turned on each other because we didn't know what else to do.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And that was, that was the great thing about this, this year of kind of you and I coming together and discussing what had happened. Because I suddenly felt like, I, I thought I'd let go of it all. And it's good to go, oh no, it still lives with me. You almost like have to admit that, that that stuff lives with you. Because some of that shit has driven me to do more and do better for me, for those idiots. And own shit. Like, you know, this, this whole empire of happy place. I saw you do that. I saw you have a podcast. I saw you quickly turn it into books as well. I saw you build the festival around it. I saw you building a world and a business. When we both knew that TV was getting more dangerous and you couldn't rely on it.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  And now I know that you were being fired from jobs, which I had no idea about. I thought I was the fireable one. And, and it really is, it's like as women in their 40s now, I've had to diversify and decide what I actually want to do. And it turns out it was reinventing the skipping rope. But that was, but that is what it is.

• 17:52Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  I'm so happy that I had that time away from telly to come back stronger, better, brighter. Like walking taller, thinking better thoughts for myself, wanting to give people things and be of service. That's what we were saying as well backstage. It was like that clip, it felt, and you and I having these discussions. I felt like we were in service a bit and that feels different.

• 18:14Fearne Cotton?

  It feels good.

• 18:15Speaker 01

  It feels good. I still believe we were in service when we were doing bloody Tom and Pop, Pop World.

• 18:20Fearne Cotton?

  We're trying to make people happy.

• 18:22Speaker 01

  That was a service of its kind. I know how many hangovers I helped, so don't even.

• 18:27Fearne Cotton?

  So many.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  Pretend we didn't cure hangovers.

• 18:31Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, you're so right. And I think I know which bits of it drive me still today. Like I think we all have our own little insecurities and mine will probably always be like, not smart enough, didn't go to uni, must read more books, must show up as someone that is intelligent. And some of that can drive you brilliantly. But some of it, you know, I'm 45 and I still have loads of insecurities that I'm like, right, just go and take yourself away for a minute and think about this. Like, is this true? Is this real? What do you truly believe about yourself? What's your version of that?

• 19:01Speaker 01

  Yesterday, I had to do an eight hour walk yesterday after my friend's baby shower. Because I was like, I am around so many people every day. My job is so public facing. I reveal myself every week. I actually need to hear nothing and speak to no one and keep walking. And I walked from like Labyrinth Grove to like Hampstead, to Kentish Town, to just all around London. And I was like, I really needed that. And I thought, I'm in quite a good place at the moment. That doesn't mean you don't need an eight hour walk in silence with yourself sometimes.

• 19:33Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  And it felt really fucking good.

• 19:35Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  Really good. And it's good that I know when I need that now. Or I know that I haven't been skipping enough. I haven't been moving enough because I've been working so much. Again, before I would have just not even been curious about why I felt like shit.

• 19:51Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, no, no.

• 19:52Speaker 01

  Stay there.

• 19:52Fearne Cotton?

  You're just in it or you react to it in a way that is detrimental to yourself, to other people around you. I mean, back then, I would certainly look at, if I watched a clip of myself back in the day. I mean, I used to cringe a lot and now I'm just like, oh bless, like, you know.

• 20:06Speaker 01

  Oh, totally. She was doing her best.

• 20:08Fearne Cotton?

  Doing her best, but I knew.

• 20:09Speaker 01

  Entertaining the country, come on.

• 20:11Fearne Cotton?

  The kids of the UK. But I knew back then that I didn't like myself. I felt deeply flawed in lots of ways. I knew what I was good at, but I knew way more about what I wasn't and I focused on that a lot.

• 20:25Speaker 01

  Did you know that you were good at your job?

• 20:27Fearne Cotton?

  Some of the time. I think when I maybe started getting sacked from TV jobs or I wasn't getting as much work. That's when I started to go, I actually asked people around me, can please be honest with me? Am I weird? Or like, is there something like I'm too much and people just think, I don't want to watch you? Like I was like, please be honest, I can take it, just tell me so I know.

• 20:49Speaker 01

  Wow, I can't believe that's even something I thought was a question.

• 20:52Fearne Cotton?

  For 10 years, like I just did my first TV job this year.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  I know, I know.

• 20:57Fearne Cotton?

  I was like, I can't put myself in that environment of feeling that insecure. I don't want to. With this, I feel like we're all mates, like we know, we're all flawed and trying our fucking best and, you know.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  You built this world.

• 21:08Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, like it's lovely. I love it. I feel very lucky. But I think TV still feels a bit like the toxic ex-boyfriend that I'm going back to, but it's not this time.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  Totally. That's what I used to call the BBC. I was like, they're like a toxic bastard that I still want to fancy me.

• 21:29Fearne Cotton?

  It will never go. It will never go.

• 21:32Speaker 01

  Not trying to impress them.

• 21:33Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, but I know back then I really didn't like myself and I had no self-compassion. If I read a mean tweet or someone writes something shitty about me, I would absolutely go, they're right. They are right.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  You know what though? Because there was no social media, I think it was still, it was still quite a nuanced thing to be on screen, to be well-known and to sort of have a public life.

• 21:54Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 21:54Speaker 01

  Now, you know, we're all quite close to a public life, you know, and being on the screen and talking to our phones and seeing ourselves in that way. So it was still very nuanced and the lives we had and the jobs we had. And I have to say, I have to be honest, if you're not liking yourself and you have to be on screen every week, there is nothing worse, nothing worse. There were times where I felt so overweight, so depressed, still trying to figure out who I was at 22, 23. And you still have to go do that job every week and make sure you are positive and you're, you've got good energy and you're doing a bloody good job and you're doing your research. You're interviewing these huge terrifying film stars really well.

• 22:35Speaker 01

  And it's not a woe is me story, but I think you have to be realistic about the strangeness of hot twenties fun.

• 22:41Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, so weird.

• 22:42Speaker 01

  And the experiences, the experience that we were living.

• 22:45Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, I definitely.

• 22:45Speaker 01

  I'm proud of us.

• 22:46Fearne Cotton?

  I'm proud of us. I really am. And before, like, we've got so much more to talk about, but I, even talking to you backstage, I was like, this is the coolest thing ever.

• 22:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:56Fearne Cotton?

  Like, it's so beautiful.

• 22:58Speaker 01

  And that we did it for ourselves.

• 22:59Fearne Cotton?

  And we did it for ourselves. Like, I'm so fucking chuffed. When I look back to that era, like I know I wasn't coping with a lot of it. And I don't feel like, there's not, again, it's like not woe is me, but there's not much room to go, oh, I'm really struggling, this is awful, because you have the dream job. You're meeting all the biggest pop stars and it's, it's so unusual, but the pressure is weird and immense and the level of toxicity coming back at you. My coping mechanism when I was self-loathing was, well, it wasn't a coping mechanism, but I was bulimic for like 10 years. That was the only way I could find something private for myself that made sense to me.

• 23:40Fearne Cotton?

  Obviously it doesn't now, but it was a release of sorts because I wasn't coping. For you, that was what?

• 23:48Speaker 01

  Partying, fun.

• 23:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  Raving, no, not even raving actually, just drinking too much. And, and it's interesting because I did Elizabeth's podcast and talked.

• 23:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I loved it.

• 23:59Speaker 01

  About, oh, thank you. God, I didn't even realise how honest I was being until I heard it back. I was like, whoa. I've actually never said a lot of this out loud. And, but it was really good for me because I had to be honest about why I always wanted to be in that haze of being drunk. And there was such a long time of, there's one thing, drinking to celebrate your success. That, that was five years of fun. But when I then lost jobs and wasn't working, but was still very well-known and at times had no money, but everyone knows who you are and you look like shit, but you can't go anywhere. But you're not working and you have no money, but everyone knows who you are. It's like a really, like a terrible place to exist. So I just wanted to be in a haze all the time. And I used to hate her.

• 24:42Speaker 01

  Makita 29 to 33, hate on her avidly. And now I'm like, give her a break. She was, yeah, she was an alcoholic, but there was no, I had nowhere to turn. I was like stuck. I couldn't get out of this place. So I was like, I'll just haze myself. So that's been really like revelatory for me because I always thought my problem was being in my twenties and going out too much with Lil in the early days. No, no, no, it was more that lonely time of early thirties, post-Saturn's return.

• 25:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's a big one.

• 25:15Speaker 01

  It's a big one.

• 25:16Fearne Cotton?

  And I didn't know about that until I was like 35. And then I was like, oh, that's why my life's telepath. So I think understanding the rhythms of your life and also Miss Me wouldn't be what it was if I didn't have so much terrible shit to talk about that I've been through.

• 25:32Speaker 01

  It'd be very boring.

• 25:33Fearne Cotton?

  You know what I mean? I was like, God, the bankruptcy, because that will do about forever.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly.

• 25:39Fearne Cotton?

  No, but it was great when we realised that Miss Me was, you know, it was a really big hit really quickly. And Lil and I were like, do you know what? We're genuinely turning our pain into power and our mistakes into gold. Like by, by being honest about your mess, we're getting success. And helping people to, to, to never feel that they're messy because we're all so messy.

• 26:00Speaker 01

  Oh my God, it's relieving. I love nothing more than hearing something on a podcast where someone you think is the ultimate shiny person.

• 26:07Fearne Cotton?

  When it's Paltrow saying she has shitty Wednesdays, you're like, okay.

• 26:10Speaker 01

  What? I need to hear that. Exactly.

• 26:12Fearne Cotton?

  And so I'm really proud that at this time, stage in my career, I've had this beautiful success with this podcast and it's all been about the truth of the mess.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  Yes, and you can then show up as yourself. You don't have to hide any part of yourself or any of your backstory. It's like, this is me, take it or leave it.

• 26:32Fearne Cotton?

  Well, I think that stuff really kills us. Like it really is so heavy secrets and hiding parts of ourself. And you know, after many years of therapy, which I'm sure you've done too.

• 26:42Speaker 01

  I'm still in it.

• 26:43Fearne Cotton?

  Me too.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. Seeing her tomorrow, really missed her. Went away for a few weeks. I hated it. But one of the greatest things about therapy is like, stop trying to cut a part of yourself out. She's A, not going anywhere and B is important to you and is part of you. And you need to know that about her, poor little 26-year-old.

• 27:03Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  So that, that kind of bringing all of yourselves in, God, that's been so powerful for me. And I, I look different because of it and I am different because of it and I move differently because of it. Because I'm not trying to shut anyone out. They're all here, all 25 of me are here.

• 27:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I love that. And do you like yourself today?

• 27:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I'm really proud of myself. I can't believe what I'm doing right now, especially with ropes. That's something, that's, that's the business I've been building around the skipping rope. And that's been five, six years of working behind closed doors. And you can just feel like you're, especially because it's a skipping rope. You're just like, what are we doing? And you feel like you're talking into a void because you're just always talking about it in these rooms with people, but it's never going out. And then this summer, we sort of did our first pre-sale campaign to show what we've been working on. And it was like, it was just like, oh shit. I've never like made something, like invented something. Because we've invented the world's first retractable skipping rope and it looks nice.

• 28:04Fearne Cotton?

  It looks gorgeous.

• 28:05Speaker 01

  And it's got a case and it's like sexy. And I was like, oh shit. When me and my cousin, who is backstage, who I, because we are going to give everyone some skipping ropes. We don't have our ropes because they're in production, but we're just going to give skipping ropes. So you just get skipping and understand.

• 28:18Fearne Cotton?

  Hold that pelvic floor in ladies. Hold it tight.

• 28:21Speaker 01

  Hold it tight.

• 28:22Fearne Cotton?

  Breathe in.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  That's absolutely true.

• 28:24Fearne Cotton?

  We are working on ropes for maternity. That's a whole other story.

• 28:26Speaker 01

  And like, we need like a nappy.

• 28:27Fearne Cotton?

  Postpartum rope.

• 28:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. But yeah, that's been, that for me, that was when I wasn't just like, I'm proud of myself. I was like, look what you did, Makita. And it's just the beginning of this huge new journey, but that, I've never liked myself more than the day we sort of went, this is it.

• 28:46Speaker 02

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• 29:48Fearne Cotton?

  So how do you go from, I know that I'm drinking too much because I'm blocking a bunch of stuff out to, I need to move my body and skipping is my thing? Because there'll be loads of people listening to this now who are like, I know I'm in a cycle of drinking too much and it's making me feel dreadful.

• 30:04Speaker 01

  I guess the real understanding that we have choice is very freeing. I was deep in victimhood and I did have a lot to feel a victim about, but the choice was to stay there. Then one day I did move to a new flat, which I always think environment does help to give yourself a new space. And it was high up and I could see all of London again and I was sort of living on the marshes. So it was very peaceful and beautiful. And I was like, I think I'm going to fucking start dreaming again. And then I started skipping. And so the idea of the choice to change my thoughts, I'm actually reading Tina Turner's book about spirituality right now. I put it backstage, I'll show you.

• 30:39Fearne Cotton?

  I want it.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  And it's so about thought. She, it's about her journey with Buddhism. But within all these practices, but I'm sure everything that you're doing today with the, with the classes and the sessions, what do we do with our thoughts? What thoughts do we choose to have? And you think it's such a small thing, but it just is not. A change of thought changes your vibrational energy. And, and I'm very into metaphysics and Newton's law, his third law is for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, right? It's the balls.

• 31:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  For every action. So I hate myself is coming back to you times 10 or times two, but times 10. What are you saying about yourself just to you? Just to yourself? What are you saying about the day? How are you doing? I'm like, I used to have this Kevin Fortune, do you remember him?

• 31:25Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  I used to have a hairdresser and they'd be like, Kevin, how are you? He'd be like, great, today's the best day of my life. And I'd be like, give it a fucking run, Kevin. But he was right. Now people ask me how I am and I say, I'm really good. Feel bloody good today. Sometimes you're tricking yourself, sometimes you're not. And sometimes the line gets blurred and you're just having a good day.

• 31:42Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. It's so interesting that I got into a real habit earlier this year of if someone said, how are you, rather than doing that, or even just giving the normal human answer, I'm fine, I would tell them everything. This has just happened to me in the last month. They haven't asked. They didn't actually care. They're like, I actually just wanted you to say, I'm fine, so I can walk past you. So like, and I got into such a habit and I'm only just coming out of it like, this is not good. This is not good for me. I don't want to be, A, offloading that much, which I have been, but also just staying stuck in that. Like there is no point.

• 32:15Speaker 01

  Stagnant, stagnant. And Tina Turner talks a lot about the lotus, the lotra, lotus?

• 32:22Fearne Cotton?

  The flower.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  Lotus. Lotus, for God's sake. The lotus flower, which grows in the mud, not despite of it, because of it. So it's like, what thoughts can you grow from even your muddy, dark place? Because that's when you feel like a magician, when you're like, shit, I changed this day. Shit, I changed this month. And that's what happened. I just started changing my thoughts and I did really know as well in my heart, the truth, and the truth will set you free, that if I had had the career that I'd had and I started to look back at it proudly for the first time instead of with shame, I was like, well, look what I did as a kid. Oh yeah. And then in my early twenties, I did this T4, oh yeah, what? Oh yeah, I was really powerful.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  And I thought, if I have done that and then I skip and train and light myself, mind, body and soul, and I put those two things together, I knew I could fucking do anything. I just knew it. I was like, suddenly like, let's go. And the interesting thing was, that's the day I probably felt better than even the stuff coming true. It was the day where I went, I felt like it had already happened.

• 33:27Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  I was like, oh, I've done it. I'm back. I've got my career back. This is how I feel, didn't it? And it was still a seven year period.

• 33:33Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  Seven year cycle of life. But wow, what a seven years I had and, and only because I had the courage to go for it.

• 33:40Fearne Cotton?

  What's really tricky is when you first have that idea of, oh right, like if you know you're stuck in victimhood, which I'm sure most of us have had, a day of, a year of, a decade of, whatever, no judgment here, but we've all had moments where we've gone, everything's shit in my life, everything, like all these awful things keeps, you know, keep on happening to me. There is a moment when you decide to not be in that headspace. And I definitely had this, whenever, 10 years ago or something, after having some shit stuff go on, where I thought, right, I can't be in that anymore, but I do have to look at what I am accountable for. And that's hard.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  Oh God, accountability.

• 34:15Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 34:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 34:17Fearne Cotton?

  It's really hard and you have to look at, actually, do you know what? I made a massive mistake there and that is on me. No one else, I can't point the finger anymore. I can't blame, I can't just say, I get bad luck. I did that thing. I've got to forgive myself, actually, is the biggest thing. How did that go with you?

• 34:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, no, that was very deep as well, that whole accountability. What, what is my role within all this? What choices have I made? What decisions did I make about myself that also got me here and brought me here, facing the monsters under the bed? Best shit you can ever do. Best stuff you can ever do. And I still do it. And that's the great thing about sort of spiritual practice or any kind of practice where you start to observe your thoughts or observe the way you live and the world around you, think about what you want in life. You're never done. Because I keep being like, I cannot believe I have to let go of something again. It's like, yeah, yeah.

• 35:07Fearne Cotton?

  Forever.

• 35:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. Do you know what I mean? See you till the end of time.

• 35:10Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 35:10Speaker 01

  But what we're doing is hopefully picking these up, these practices up as soon as we can, like do it yesterday and then you know where to go afterwards. It's like, we're not asking for, we're not praying for a challenge-free life, challenges and problems, as Tina says in her book. Like that's what makes you, that's what grows your character and resilience and wisdom and strength and courage. These things are delicious. So what we're really learning is a place to go when it feels like victim-y time again. Where do I go? Oh yeah, I go to this, I go to these thoughts, I go to chanting, I go to meditation, but not even those things. You can just go to changing your thoughts and remembering that practice that has saved you so many times. And Oprah says it as well.

• 35:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  She's like, she's the queen of surrender, right? And I thought I understood surrender. I was like, yeah, yeah, I get it. I surrender. No, no, no, no, no. Truly surrendering physically feels different. It's an energetic letting go and you can cry, you can pray. When it's gone, it feels different. And I swear to God, when, when I've done it, huge reward is on the other side. What she says is what we're doing is surrendering not to give things up, it's to give it up to that that is greater than you, which is like the universe around you. And then you get back into the flow of life and letting yourself be sort of, you know, moved like water.

• 36:37Fearne Cotton?

  Trusting.

• 36:37Speaker 01

  Trust.

• 36:38Fearne Cotton?

  Like you have to trust. And I think when you've been screwed over or something awful's happened to you, or you've just been abused by the press, it is hard to feel hopeful and trusting that like life is going to happen in any kind of peaceful way. You're like, it's just going to be shit forever. Like that's the mindset you get into. So how did you start to go, I am just going to trust that everything's going to turn out okay? There's going to be challenges, there's going to be road bumps, but I'm going to trust?

• 37:03Speaker 01

  I looked back at the evidence of my life. And I think we can all do that, especially with perspective. If you look back at the evidence of your life, everything happened how it was meant to. Even the most, probably especially the most devastating shit. Like ropes exists because I had an idea, but I was also very heartbroken. And now I'm like, wow. You know what I mean? I love it. Every time I go past that person's restaurant, I'm like, thank you. Yeah, thank you. Built a business on that heartbreak. You know what I mean? And actually, you can start to say thank you to all of it. Last, last year, when I lost the flat, I was like, you've got to be joking. And I had to go back to that place of, I am not being punished.

• 37:45Speaker 01

  There must be a reason I've just had to leave my dream home because of like a sort of violent, terrifying neighbour. Like, it felt so unjust. Yeah. Like, what's the point? What's the point of it? Like, okay, then, all right, back on my mum's sofa. Okay, so it's all over again. And I had to miss me from the sofa. And I was like, this is hell. And then I got into it and was like, well, my nan lives here with my mum. And she's 90 next year. Wow. And I see her, but I don't see her. Suddenly, I'm living with her. All day, every day, I'm with her. We start watching documentaries every night. We go on these long walks with the dogs. We have this time that I will never forget now. And I didn't go into it going, this is the time, what's the word? Like, if you're like, doing time, like, oh, God, I just have to be here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, what a gift to be in my mum's.

• 38:29Speaker 01

  Thank God my mum has a big house now. Cause she, cause her career has taken off. Thank God there's all this space. Thank God our nan's alive. Thank God she lives with me. Yeah. Thank God for life's quite a good one. Like, thank God for that. Thank you for that. And now I live in the best flat. Yeah. That I would have, that I literally would have never dreamt of existing. It's so beautiful. And I totally had to go through the sofa to get to what we like to call Palace of Dreams. Oh, the Palace of Dreams. Being with two, like, matriarchs is so great as well. And I think your mum is so awesome and what she's achieved and what she's done. It's amazing, you know, mum's career started at 54. She's just phenomenal. She's so phenomenal. Over the years, when you've been in tougher times or you've gone, I can't do this anymore.

• 39:14Speaker 01

  Has she given you wisdom, advice that's been helpful? Yeah, it's very much remember who the fuck you are, always. And I, sometimes that can feel so nothing in my mum, please. But sometimes you're like, got you. She's like, remember who you are. And I'm like, it's, it's so blunt that there's not much to fuck around with. It's like, just remember who you are. And I would say that to all of us. Remember who you are, but like, actually remember. Remember who you are, how you move, what you do for people, how you love people. Like, it's so important because we can forget so easily. It's so, it's so funny, isn't it? It's so much easier to be awful to ourselves. Oh, yeah. And lovely to ourselves. Yeah. So I think it is a game, like, life is a game. Play with your thoughts.

• 39:59Speaker 01

  Be like, actually, this is a fantastic day and I've never loved myself more. Why not? Cause that shit becomes very real very quickly. Yeah, I think we're bad at it because we think if we tell ourselves we're awful, if someone else says it, we won't be hurt. Ah, protection before. Yeah, we'll go, I know. Well, I know I'm a wanker. You've told me, but I already knew that. Rather than if you start to say to yourself, do you know what? I'm feeling pretty chuffed with myself today. I'm cool. And then someone says you're a piece of shit. That's when it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. The deflation and the falling from that thought feels awful. But I think if you can get into the practice of doing it, and I mean, I still have to every day. There's, I mean, a ton of days where I wake up and I just go, do, who am I? What, what am I doing? What's the point of, where am I headed with all of this? Like, I still have no clue sometimes.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  But sometimes that kind of gives me the giggles. Because it's like, even existing is ridiculous. You know what I mean? It's so existential. But it's just like, even the fact that we're here. Yeah. It's just ludicrous. Yeah. So sometimes, I mean, that's also what ropes is about. It's this idea of play. Because we play as kids. And then when we're thinking about looking after ourselves, it becomes about this regiment and these rules and, you know, almost sometimes punishment. Yeah, totally. And skipping for me is like, God, it's, it's like a time machine. It transports you back to that youthful place of like courage and dreamy. And, and, and that's, I think, really an important thing to remember that like, you can play at life.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  Life can be very, very difficult, but you can play it like a fucking game. And so you should, because it's that ridiculous to be alive in the first place. Yeah, we do need, we need more fun. Like, I've been saying this all this year. Like, I love what we're doing here and I think it's really beautiful. And there's lots of different things to do. But I think wellbeing, and I don't always assign happy place to that title, but it gets very serious and very prescriptive. And you have to be a certain type of person and do a certain type of things, which is a load of old crap. Like, it's just about feeling well and finding that thing that makes you feel well. Could be anything from, you know, pottery to you like going for a walk at midnight. We rediscovered her painting. Painting is my absolute happy place.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  I love that you rediscovered that. That makes me feel so good. I feel so well when I paint. And again, paint is really playful. It's like being a kid. I have the same, when I ride a bike, and I mean, I'm no cyclist. I'm like with my son and I'm eight yards behind him going like, ah, like sweating. But it's something joyful about riding a bike through park. It's being a kid again. Totally. It's so important. Totally. And I think I wanted to, as we were saying, like, our early lives were so crazy. Like, we're like hosting these shows and meeting these people and it's all quite whirlwindy and overwhelming. It is, it's kind of like, if I'm gonna have this crazy career, I might as well play in it and like reinvent the skipping rope. And I, and I suppose I've also done that so that the rest of my life, I, you know, I want to change my wealth. I wanna make money for myself.

• 42:57Speaker 01

  I wanna change the generational wealth of my family and people that come after me. But I also want to give this thing to millions and millions of people around the world that I know completely changed my life. And for me, that's the biggest game I could ever play. So why, so why was it skipping? Did you just pick, pick up a rope and you're like, oh, I feel good? No, when I was young, I wanted to play sports. Um, I wanted to play tennis and badminton and squash. And we, we were totally skint, totally poor, single parent family. So we couldn't afford rackets, but my mum got me a skipping rope when I was about five. So I skipped furiously as a child. And then I picked it back up in lockdown with the heartbreak and was like,

• 43:34Speaker 01

  found my rhythm. And that's what we say with ropes, find your rhythm. It's not about beating yourself. It's not about counting your jumps. It's just finding your rhythm, like, and it's so fun skipping. Yeah. You know, when you're like, I'm gonna go for a run, there's a bit of a like, I know you did a lot of running. Now look at your face. I know you used to love running. Do you know what? I've got a dodgy knee. I've not been for a run in about six months. Okay, only six months. So it's still in your life. Well, I don't know. Has it gone forever? It depends on if this knee decides to sort itself out, but. My mum just had knee surgery there and it changed her life. What she's, she's now, she's back out, she's doing her thing. She's the bionic woman now. I love that. Never walked so great. I need a Robocop knee. Yeah, exactly. And I'm back out running. But it is, I know that dread of like, oh, I should go for a run. And then when you're out, you're like, oh, this is, this is fine. This is great.

• 44:16Speaker 01

  But skipping, it's just, it's fun from the minute you whip that rope over your head. And it, and my body changed in ways I'd never seen it change before. And my mind changed in ways I'd never seen it before. In what way? Like, what was it doing to your brain? Focusing me. Focusing me through play rather than in the gym, weights, like, I will get thinner, I will get better. It was more like, I wonder what I'm gonna do? Do you know what I mean? I was like having fun and dreaming. And we, we do a lot of skipping with kids and we go to a lot of schools and we say to them like, dream bigger, jump higher. And I said to my business partner, my cousin the other day, I was like, fuck saying that to kids, let's say it to adults as well. Dream bigger, jump higher.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  That is a huge piece of advice for every day in life. Come on, I dare you. Dream a bit bigger, jump a bit higher. That's why I love sports fun, because tennis, for instance, the way you play is what you get back. So if the ball comes over the net and you kind of go for it, then you probably won't hit it and you have to pick up and start again. If you go, okay, let me just, uh, then, and it's a risk, isn't it? I hope I hit it. And then you hear that impact and you're like, oh, my God, I fucking did hit it. Then it goes over and suddenly you're in play. So it's like, how do you attack your life? How, how much do you give? Again, back to Newton's third law of motion, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. What do you want to give your life?

• 45:43Speaker 01

  Because that is the life you will get back. It's not even, I'm not even being like spiritual or even kind. It's not, we're, it's science. It's science. Thank you, fun. It is, it is. And that's what, that's what Oprah says, it's law. Yeah, yeah. It's not about, this is how energy works. So play in the metaphysics of it all, I, I implore you to. Cause knowing that that's the law of the way things work really helped me. It wasn't just a, it wasn't just like a sweet idea. It's absolutely true. And my life is a living embodiment of it, a complete living embodiment of it.

• 46:18Speaker 02

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• 47:51Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, it's so tricky because like when we started in TV, we had not that much control in how we were coming across and our image. And I'm imagining you felt like it was set in stone with something like T4, where the tone of that and what you are putting out has to be a bit piss-taky because that's the tone of it. Was that, did that feel jarring?

• 48:11Speaker 01

  It did because it started on Pop World and it wasn't sarky like that. The idea was to tell the truth, which sometimes was a bit harsh. Sorry, I told my kids that. And, but there was charm to it and wit to it. And Pop World wasn't silly, it was funny, which is what I was always very proud of. We had great writers, I was a good writer, so was Simon. And we knew what we wanted, even though it was all improvised. But like the ideas that we wanted to get across, we were all on a level together. T4 started like that as well. Me and Steve were totally like that, loved that with him. He really got that. And as you remember, Steve's quite dangerous. Like he's not, he looks like a Ken doll, but he's a... So awkward.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  I don't mean like, and I mean like behind closed doors. But yeah, but he was, you know, he's a brilliant man and we had so much fun with that. But towards the end, it started becoming this thing that I was seeing not just on T4, but like across the board of kind of like snarkiness and a kind of, you can't sit with us energy. And I was like, that's not it. That's not what we were cultivating. So around the end of T4, I have to say it was quite difficult because there were new presenters coming in and falling into this sort of idea of sarkiness, sarcasm. And I was like, God, we've built a monster. Like, and it was never about that. It was always about the truth and honesty and kindness. Always kindness.

• 49:40Speaker 01

  Like I would never want to be unkind. So yeah, that did start to jar me quite a lot.

• 49:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and I guess back then, if you can see that the results of that were, I don't feel very good about my life, I don't feel very good about myself. And your attitude has completely 180'd your life. That's such a powerful reminder that every thought we're having, everything that comes out of our mouth is really important in terms of like where we're going. And that's not to mean that we have to get it right and be perfect. Because of course we're not, we're fallible, we're gonna mess up, we're gonna say the wrong thing, we're gonna have days where like, oh, you know, the amount of times this summer I've gone to my kids, I'm so sorry that I'm grumpy today, I'm just a little bit stressed out and whatever. We're not here to get it perfect, but I think always going back to that returning thought of, I've got autonomy over how some of this stuff rolls out.

• 50:30Fearne Cotton?

  That is really, really game changing.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I just read this unbelievable chapter in the book. Sorry, this is all about me and my Tina Turner book.

• 50:38Fearne Cotton?

  I love her.

• 50:39Speaker 01

  But there's this great chapter where she's chanting with this elder Japanese woman in the 90s. And she, the woman asks her like, how are things? And Tina sort of lists off her problems, which are at the time unbelievable. And all the women clap and say, congratulations. And she's like, did you hear me right? And they're like, no, no, no, no, no. Like with true Buddhism or whatever, you know, any kind of practice of observing our thoughts and thinking about the way we think, you can, as bad as your problem is, that's how good it can be. That's how good the reaction can be because of how you approach it. So at the moment I've got like a minor problem, but it could turn into a major problem. And I'm like, all right, so the minor problem, actually that's how positive it can be. Minorly positive, but if it gets to a major problem, it could be majorly positive.

• 51:24Speaker 01

  And I've seen that again in my life all the time because of how I approach something. So I think there's this idea of just changing, changing what is negative and what is positive. These are like old myths that we've made up in our heads, like this is a problem. Maybe it's not, maybe it's something to overcome that might give you the best reward of your life.

• 51:42Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 51:43Speaker 01

  I know some of my biggest challenges are 100% the best things that ever happened to me.

• 51:47Fearne Cotton?

  Same, I wouldn't be doing any of this. Totally. I had like the worst period of my life. I would have just carried on going, I hope I get another TV job. And I hope I'm as good as Alan and Dec one day.

• 51:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, right.

• 51:57Fearne Cotton?

  And you never are because they're the best. You can't be as good as them, it's impossible.

• 52:01Speaker 01

  I mean, I think also just like that autonomy that you said, that's so, just even knowing that, I have a choice.

• 52:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's so important, it's so important. And honestly, it's just like so cool to see what you're doing and that you're, you're just being, you're being yourself without the fear of like, the press are gonna say something or I'm gonna get sacked. It's like you just...

• 52:20Speaker 01

  No, fuck them, way more powerful than them now.

• 52:22Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We have, we're leaving all of that behind. I mean, the difference that we had back in the day with the press, I think we probably got equally battered in the press. And you just don't know that each other are going through it. You know, we've both got horror stories in that department. But for you, do you believe there was also added racism in the mix of how you were talked about in the press?

• 52:42Speaker 01

  Oh God, yeah, which is so depressing because I already felt so isolated and alone because there weren't other, they really weren't. I always think maybe I'm being a little bit silly by saying I was the only one, but I don't remember anyone. There was June before me and then she had gone. So it was sort of just me, and I don't even mean like in youth TV, I just mean in telly. And so to be, it's kind of that kind of veil of racism, which is like, we won't call her, we won't call her a dirty black girl, but we will call her dirty and grubby. And they were the words, the terminology that I remember only being used around me because they had a whole other list of vile words for Lily, but it was never those. And these were mine.

• 53:24Speaker 01

  And, and you sort of feel like they're a sign to just you and who you are. But of course now, luckily with my wisdom and getting older, of course it was racism. But it wouldn't have even been direct racism, we just live in a racist world. And it would have been a huge example of just the way the world was. And, you know, I'm not saying that racism has disappeared, but I just don't think they would have, they would get away with that now.

• 53:49Fearne Cotton?

  No, no.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  But see, I say that though, and then Lily went through hell when we started Miss Me. And I couldn't believe how little it changed then. I couldn't believe it.

• 53:57Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 53:58Speaker 01

  I couldn't believe like back in that realm of the sun and the mirror and all that shit, they would, they still, it's lawless.

• 54:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 54:06Speaker 01

  The way they were with Lil. Especially when we talked about abortions. That I was really shocked at the reaction from women as well, really angry with us. Angry with us, said that we were belittling the experience because we'd spoken about our personal experiences with abortion and how we honestly felt about it. And one of the things we didn't feel was victimhood, because it was a choice in our lives. And I, that I would never go against a huge decision like that for myself. And I couldn't believe how negative and devastatingly violent the language towards Lily. And I still was.

• 54:44Fearne Cotton?

  And how do you, what do you do with that information?

• 54:47Speaker 01

  Not shut up, keep going. Don't say, we should probably not talk about abortions. I was like, let's do episode two on abortions, like let's keep going. I'm not trying to rile anyone up, but you won't silence us. And it is there to silence you and it's there to scare you and it doesn't scare me.

• 55:03Fearne Cotton?

  That's good.

• 55:04Speaker 01

  No way.

• 55:04Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I'm still terrified.

• 55:05Speaker 01

  No, fuck them.

• 55:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I'm very scared.

• 55:08Speaker 01

  Don't be scared.

• 55:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 55:10Speaker 01

  Courage.

• 55:12Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. No, it's great. I think it's awesome. I think you're absolutely right. I think it is there to silence subjects and people and things and matters and squash them and get a sensationalised headline that then people click on because they just want more clicks or more views or whatever it might be. And it doesn't matter if it's of any worth or content or substantial, it's just get the click. And it's not great. So I think hats off, I'm working towards that. I wanna give zero fucks down the line. I'm not quite there yet.

• 55:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're like 85% there.

• 55:42Fearne Cotton?

  I'm 85% now, I'm getting there. What I wanna say is I'm so happy that we've done this, beyond, I can't even tell you. Like beyond. And I'm also a bit sad because I think we could have...

• 55:58Speaker 01

  Been good friends for years, I know. We've lost all that time. They took our twenties from us. We're just gonna have to be like friends in their forties who lunch a lot.

• 56:07Fearne Cotton?

  I just feel like this could have been a thing.

• 56:09Speaker 01

  It could have been lovely.

• 56:10Fearne Cotton?

  It's really weird. And I think, you know, both Makita and I, when we talked about, before we did this podcast, this was not to become just about us. What I hope is that we've all fallen out with a mate or even someone you don't know, we didn't even know each other. But, and there's like this void or a distance and you misunderstand each other. And it doesn't mean you have to make amends with every person in your life. Because I do believe sometimes there are people that stay in the past.

• 56:36Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 56:37Fearne Cotton?

  And you don't need to go back mending every relationship. Sometimes you go, do you know what, that chat just closed, whatever. But I think if you've got an inkling that there's a friend out there that you would like to reconnect with, or there's just a disconnect with someone and it doesn't need to be there, I, I believe it's only healing. And if you think, like, you know, I took a slight risk and when I DM'd you...

• 56:57Speaker 01

  I was just thinking that, did you think it was a risk to DM me?

• 57:00Fearne Cotton?

  Well, I don't know if I thought it was a risk. I thought you could ignore it and I would just go, okay. Or, or you would say something back. Yeah, but I was willing to take that. It wouldn't have even been rejection, I would have just gone, yeah, I'm not cool, Makita's cool.

• 57:13Speaker 01

  See, no, but you would have gone back to that old place.

• 57:15Fearne Cotton?

  I would have, I would have, but I would have been fine with that. But I, I kind of had an inkling that that wouldn't be the case. I thought, I reckon that this will be a really nice moment where we've connected over a shared experience that is really shit. And I think that, yeah, I just wanted to do this podcast because I think there are so many other women out there, and there'll be men too, but we're better at talking. And I do think many women out there will listen to this and go, God, maybe I will like text that person or send that message or clear up a misunderstanding that doesn't need to be there because it only feels great.

• 57:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 57:52Fearne Cotton?

  It only feels good, so I am, I'm so glad.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think we've done like something like of service for ourselves and others around us. And they say that is like the highest level of living.

• 58:02Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I agree.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  It feels good, it feels like high frequency shit.

• 58:05Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's high frequency. We're like vibrating at a high frequency. Before we end, where is your happy place, Makita?

• 58:14Speaker 01

  The Terrace of Palace of Dreams.

• 58:17Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, describe the terrace.

• 58:20Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. It's based on Bette Midler's Upper East Side penthouse.

• 58:25Fearne Cotton?

  Great.

• 58:25Speaker 01

  I love it. Talk about manifesting. When I sat on the sofa, I was like, this is fine. I live on this sofa and I'm 41, but this is fine. I'm going to read every interiors book and I'm going to really like build my palace of dreams. And I did, and I got this amazing flat. And Bette Midler has this penthouse on the Upper East Side. And it's just got this huge garden, but it looks like a kind of old English Somerset, like cottage garden. So that's what it is. It's like, I'm high up with the best view of London you've ever seen on a park. But then there's just this like Upper East Side energy. Flower garden and I have a big white sofa. And when I sit there with tea and I look at the city and I look at my beautiful flat, I'm like, okay, I'm really, really, really, really fucking happy.

• 59:08Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 59:08Speaker 01

  So that is my place. Or the tennis court.

• 59:11Fearne Cotton?

  Nice.

• 59:11Speaker 01

  Because that reminds me to play hard and, you know, keep playing.

• 59:17Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 59:18Speaker 01

  The game of life.

• 59:19Fearne Cotton?

  The game of life.

• 59:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:21Fearne Cotton?

  Well, I love that for you and I'm so glad that you came up to Cheshire to see all of us. Please give it up for Makita Oliver.

• 59:28Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 59:30Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, my God. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did because that was like hugely game changing. And like we both said, you know, it isn't just about us repairing this sort of like weird void that we had created for no reason because we weren't, we weren't friends to start with. There was no friendship to, to end. It just started badly. But I think for people out there that like, you know, you've got someone out there that doesn't like you or doesn't get you, or, or maybe you've done something, you know, I've, I've apologized to people where I fucked up in the past and it's been so healing. And it is risky because they might not accept your apology, but I think it's always worth it. Um, but I really hope, like me and Makita have spoken since because we're now, we're kind of friends, guys. Just putting that out there.

• 1:00:15Fearne Cotton?

  Um, and we both believe that by doing that episode, we've done something good. And I always hope that we do that with Happy Place, but I really believe it this time. It felt like we've done something good and that makes me happy. So, yeah, I can only urge you, if you've got, you know, a misunderstanding with someone, beef with someone, a situation that makes you feel uncomfortable, if you feel like brave enough to reach out to try and cross that void, I think it's worth the risk of them ignoring you or coming back with something unsavory. I think it's worth it because there is also a high chance they could get back to you and really do a bit of healing and repairing. So go for it.

• 1:01:00Fearne Cotton?

  And like, let us know if you do do that because I think if we keep sharing these stories, it's really powerful. Like drop us a DM at happy place official. If you've had an experience like that, or you, or you might dare to now, having listened to that. I would love to hear your, your version of, of me and Makita. I would love nothing more. But thank you, Makita. Thank you for getting back to me. Thank you for braving coming to very much my territory on that day. It was my festival that you stepped into and we all welcomed you with open arms. But I know that must've taken a lot of courage, so I'm really grateful. All right. Until next time, a massive thanks again to Makita and to you. You're bloody brilliant.

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