Ashley James: You’re a bimbo! Mumsy! Bossy! How we shrink confidence out of girls

You’re a bimbo. A nag. Too mumsy. Too bossy. Ever had any of those labels put on you? Far from harmless words, Ashley James is clear they all work to shrink women and girls. In this chat with Fearne, Ashley recalls her first experiences of street harassment, and the way she victim blamed herself. They also explore the shame that keeps women silent about their altered bodies after giving birth; Ashley talks about her own post-partum body, including the reality of piles, prolapse, and vaginismus. Wondering if marriage is right for you? Ashley runs through her pros and cons. Plus, are we still allowed to watch and enjoy wildly problematic films like Grease...? Ashley’s book, Bimbo, is out on February 12th. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Gabor Maté https://pod.fo/e/166b8a Louise Thompson https://pod.fo/e/38069e Jane Goodall https://pod.fo/e/f257b Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To mark it, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:29Fearne Cotton?

  Hello and a massive welcome to Happy Place. I'm Fern Cotton and this is the show that helps you unlearn shame and societal expectations. Today, I'm chatting to Ashley James.

• 0:42Speaker 02

  Why is my breast size linked to my morality or my promiscuity? Why can't I just have a body? Because Ada's two and when she looks in the mirror, she's so... Like, I love the way she looks at her body with like wonder and like pats her belly and even like sees my belly. Like, she's always like saying how squishy it is and she loves it. And I think like that was me, that was you. And we're born with like so much confidence for our voices and our bodies. And so why do we shrink it out of girls?

• 1:15Fearne Cotton?

  Guys, I'm at my kitchen table yet again, where I'm preferring to record these introductions for the podcast at the moment. So if you hear a rogue cat or a kettle go or a police car wailing past, you can picture me sat in my dimly lit kitchen.

• 1:33Fearne Cotton?

  I'm really excited about this chat. We're not talking entirely about shame, but shame is a theme that we cover. And it's something that, oh God, I mean, I've spent years thinking about shame, but I don't suppose I've started properly challenging it. I'm not sure if that's even the right word, looking at how I'm trying to recover from it. But facing up to it, confronting it, looking at it, getting stuck into it, staring it squarely in the eyes. And I've found it so helpful in limiting it. You know, sometimes you think that talking about the subject matter, looking into it is going to accentuate it, but it does absolutely the opposite. So, oh, there's a cat, there's a cat in a bag, fig.

• 2:14Fearne Cotton?

  So in this chat, we do, we do talk about shame quite a bit and it's a subject that I think I'll probably be obsessed with forever. It's something that might be a life's work in ridding, in fact. So that is, that is something that we talk about. So I want to get properly stuck into all these big subjects with Ashley because she's written a book called Bimbo, which is a real battle cry of a book, actually, to make sure that we as women aren't shrinking ourselves. You can often find Ashley being the voice of feminists across the country on the ITV This Morning sofa, and she's also a DJ as well. We talk about all sorts of things. Why we're still forced to choose between motherhood and a career.

• 2:59Fearne Cotton?

  We also talk about postpartum bodies, which I'm sure many of you listeners will be eager to hear, not all of you, but many of you. The way that girls are made to feel smaller and for our self-esteem to basically shrink as we grow older. We also talk about lots of double standards, sort of like names that women are called and standards that are held to women but not men. And this is by no means, if you're a man listening to this, I'm sure there's not many of you, but if you're a man listening to this, don't think this is going to be a chat where we slag off men. It is absolutely not. If anything, I urge men to listen to this chat because all of these conversations affect men as much as they affect women.

• 3:40Fearne Cotton?

  It, you know, helps accentuate toxic masculinity for a start, but also I think gives us all a skewed view on how we should all be living in society and what our roles are. So please don't think that this is like an episode where we're just slagging off men. Far from it. A lot of these tropes and names that women are called are also used by women. As you're hearing this chat, I own up to many that I've used towards myself and other people. And we also talk about reasons for not getting married, which is fascinating.

• 4:14Speaker 03

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• 4:55Speaker 03

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• 5:36Speaker 04

  This December, the magic of Charles Dickens' A Christmas Carol returns to Virginia Repertory Theater in downtown Richmond. Experience the transformation of Ebenezer Scrooge as he's visited by the ghosts of Christmas past, present, and future, and rediscover the joy and true meaning of the holiday season. Performances run November 18th through December 27th. Tickets on sale now at virginianrep.org or by calling 804-282-2620.

• 6:09Fearne Cotton?

  To this brilliant chat with Ashley in just a moment, but first I wanted to let you know that my new book, Likeable, is available now to pre-order and I'm so thrilled that this book is actually a book. It's sat on my laptop for a wee while and now it's in actual book form and I'm really happy to get this book out there because I believe it's the most honest book I've written. It was a book that I definitely needed to write because for too long I have shape-shifted and done things I haven't wanted to and felt deep resentment, all to try and remain likeable, which I've since realised is pointless and

• 6:53Fearne Cotton?

  futile. So now it's more about just being me and authentically showing up as myself and dealing with the consequences of that. But I loved writing this book and I can only hope that you enjoy reading it as much as I did creating it. It's called Likeable and you can pre-order it now and when it's eventually out and you see it in the shops, you can't miss it because it's got a massive middle finger on the front of it. So there you go, pre-order it now if you want and it will arrive on your doorstep the day it's released, the 12th of March. All right, let's do it. Here's the show.

• 7:48Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, Ashley.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  Hello.

• 7:49Fearne Cotton?

  How are you?

• 7:50Speaker 02

  Very good. How are you?

• 7:51Fearne Cotton?

  I'm good. So good to see you.

• 7:53Speaker 02

  I'm so excited to be here.

• 7:54Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, we did a little panel together a while back and you were telling me about your book that we're going to deeply dive into in a moment, but it's now in book form, sat here. You must feel very excited about that.

• 8:06Speaker 02

  Um, do you know what? I think it's like beautiful.

• 8:09Fearne Cotton?

  It's such a good cover.

• 8:10Speaker 02

  Overly, thank you. I was overly meticulous about the cover. I feel like I drove Penguin mad. I even went in with a Pantone chart.

• 8:17Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 8:17Speaker 02

  Went to Waterstones with like, just to look at the different shades of pinks on the bookshelf. So I'm glad that you like it.

• 8:23Fearne Cotton?

  I absolutely love it. But it's a weird and wonderful thing when all of your thoughts are processed in such, and it's a laborious process writing a book. But then you, you get it. You get the book. It's such a, an amazing moment.

• 8:37Speaker 02

  Going to the factory. So I went to Clay's and I saw it be print, like get printed. I almost cried because it feels like, that's my baby. And also just so cool to see it being printed alongside like massive well-known authors that I grew up reading. So I was like, what pinch me moment? So good.

• 8:52Fearne Cotton?

  It's very exciting. And also a brilliant title, bimbo. I love it. We're reclaiming the word bimbo. Along with many others, or some we might want to ditch. I don't know how you feel about all of them, but you mention a lot of the words in the book that I'm about to say that are exclusively thrown at women and there isn't a male equivalent. So bimbo being one, there is no male equivalent to the word bimbo. We've also got on the list, this is just some of them, frigid, drama queen, slut, nag, tart, cat lady. I mean, I will happily reclaim that one. That one's mine. Um, hag, bossy, mumsy.

• 9:30Fearne Cotton?

  It's so interesting when you start to really dissect this list and see that there is no male equivalent to these words.

• 9:38Speaker 02

  Unless, as I've hopefully shown in the book, unless it's a man who also doesn't fit inside the very narrow box of what masculinity is. So some might say like drama queen applies to a man who is effeminate. So you know, there's a, I try to be as, whilst I'm obviously focusing on like the female experience because I am one, I try to also look at how these words also impact men.

• 10:01Fearne Cotton?

  And it's interesting because like you just said there, they would be used for men that are probably showing some sort of femininity.

• 10:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:08Fearne Cotton?

  So it's still a slur towards women anyway.

• 10:11Speaker 02

  It's insulting. It's insulting for men to be like a girl.

• 10:15Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 10:15Speaker 02

  So we're teaching men and women that being like a girl, running like a girl, throwing like a girl. It's less than.

• 10:21Fearne Cotton?

  Mm. Mumsy's a really interesting one because I've even, I've caught myself saying it loads of times. I'm probably gonna cut a load of my hair off this week because I just feel like it's a dead weight. And I was gonna go long bob and I said to my daughter, will I look a bit mumsy? And I was like, oh my god, that was in Ashley's book, don't say the word mumsy, what the fuck? And you, you catch yourself, like, these are all things that are just common parlance. Like, we say this stuff all the time. But it's so interesting how being mumsy, which is basically just like being a mum, is a slur.

• 10:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. And also mums are like the punchline. I also use the word mumsy and this is the thing, the kind of the point I wanted to make, like, even though it's in our language, it's not me saying you should never say any of these words or do any of these things. It's almost like, yeah, why do we say that? That's so weird. And I remember when I became pregnant, I was like, I just don't wanna, I'm not like, I don't wanna be like a mum or just a mum. Or I'm not gonna dress mumsy, as if every other mum who came before me was like, this is it for me now. Give me my penny.

• 11:26Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 11:26Speaker 02

  It's so weird, isn't it? Like, and the one that really irks me still is people who say, oh, well, I focused on my career. I chose not to have kids, which by the way, that is also in the book. People should accept that a lot of women don't want to have children. And I think often we put a lot of pressure on women, like whether it's we're telling them they're selfish or there'll be no one to look after them when they're old. So it's all about respecting people and their choices, whatever they are. But I find whenever anyone says, oh, I didn't have children because I focused on my career. I always think, do you think that some of us, like mums don't wanna focus on their career? Not to say all mums do, but we never, we never throw that at dads. A dad would never be like, I'm a career dad.

• 12:05Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 12:06Speaker 02

  A stay at home dad. I, I put off having children because I wanted to focus on my career. They can just do what they want.

• 12:11Fearne Cotton?

  Nor would dadsy be a slur. Cause I think when people, when men really show up as fathers and they do the stuff that more traditionally has been. You know, taken care of by women, it's so overly praised. So actually, if you were to have.

• 12:27Speaker 02

  So hands on.

• 12:27Fearne Cotton?

  So hands on. So if you were to say someone was dad's, you'd probably be like, that's so great.

• 12:32Speaker 02

  And even looking at bodies, because I suppose Bimbo, it's looking at how language and expectation slowly strip away our voice, but also our bodies. And if you think that like a mum bod is like considered disgusting, it's all about getting your body back or ruining your body. But dad bod's kind of like

• 12:49Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 12:50Speaker 02

  cute, doesn't it? Like, I think I saw an article a while ago that Leo DiCaprio had a dad bod. I don't even know if he's a dad, but I was like, sorry, I was, I was like recovering. I was in my like postpartum recovery phase at that point. And there was so much like talk about whether or not I'm going to bounce back, even if it was just a journalist being like, do you want to bounce back? And at the time I was experiencing like piles, prolapse, vaginismus, all of this is, which is in the book. But I was like, hang on a minute. So I'm looked at as disgusting and being asked when I'm going to look like I haven't had a baby. And Leo DiCaprio, who I don't even think is a dad, is being like praised.

• 13:27Fearne Cotton?

  And even if he was, certainly hasn't grown a child. I mean, it's all absolutely said. P S piles are the worst pain ever.

• 13:35Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 13:36Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my God. When I had my operation about, whenever it was, a year and a half ago, I had, it was so painful. People don't talk about this because it's like, oh my God, piles, we can't talk about it. One of the most painful things of all time. Horrendous.

• 13:49Speaker 02

  Honestly, this is again, a lot of the things I talk about in the book and I'm so open about my own postpartum recovery. Whether it was like fecal incontinence, incontinence, because I feel like there's so much shame and stigma around it. And it's really isolating. And I think it actually does a disservice to women because we are made to feel that we shouldn't talk about it. We also therefore don't push for better care. And I had an experience where I was basically having loads of pain after Alfie, my first baby who I had vaginally. And I went to one of the top gynecologists in the country to see what was going on because I couldn't even insert a tampon without pain. And I remember him saying, oh, I've had a look and the stitches are fine. There's no scar tissue. So it's all in your head.

• 14:32Speaker 02

  And I was like, okay, well, how can I get it out of my head because it's painful. And so I ended up going to an amazing private health physio called Marta. And she, within like two seconds, at this point, I'd given birth like twenty two months before. She diagnosed me with something called vaginismus. And within like two minutes, she just basically like released the muscle and then I, and then I was fine. And so I feel like, A, we don't really talk about it. I think Meghan Trainor might have had it and she did talk about it. And then it was like sensationalised in the media in this quite grim way. And I tried to like push through all of the embarrassment and the taboo because hopefully it helps other people so that they don't have to be in pain. Or they don't have to put up with piles and prolapse.

• 15:18Speaker 02

  And I always say this talk of bounce back culture. All I wanted to do was like bounce back in. And I find it's almost like the Titanic iceberg where we talk about this bit, which is how we look in our appearance. But actually, there's a whole host of other issues that not everybody gets, but a lot of women experience. And we, we just don't talk about it.

• 15:37Fearne Cotton?

  No, we don't talk about any of it because it is, and then I think, as you say, it breeds secrecy, but also shame. And people then do suffer in silence because they sort of think, well, I can't, I couldn't possibly tell anyone that I've had piles. Or I can't go to the toilet, or I can't insert a tampon. It's all hush, hush, keep it super secret. And that keeps women suffering unnecessarily. But like you say, there is a massive lack of healthcare in that department. It's not highlighted as something that is seemingly important. Even if we look at pelvic floor health, I cannot jog without pissing my pants. I can't go on a trampoline, God, no, laughing, sneezing, like my pelvic floor is fucked.

• 16:17Fearne Cotton?

  And there's obviously like no care afterwards that's commonplace that, you know, how's your pelvic floor doing? Let's talk about it. How can we help you out there? If you, you've got to really seek out a way to fix that.

• 16:29Speaker 02

  And wait and wait for a really long time if you're going on NHS. And I think that's why I speak really openly in the book about the times that I've used private healthcare. Because I feel really lucky that I have been able to do that, but I also feel. Like a sense of sadness for people who can't do that and who don't know how to advocate for themselves. And it's like, I just find it like the whole, and it's not just about motherhood. There's so many other areas, whether it's endometriosis or even like for teenage girls' periods. Like there's so much taboo and stigma that we're kind of making us lose our confidence. And actually, things like incontinence, you can get treatment and you don't have to live with it. I feel like it's kind of that myth, isn't it, that if you're a mum, you avoid trampolines.

• 17:11Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I know. I still haven't sorted it out. It's so far down my priority list, although it bugs me all the time. But I think it's because it's not talked about. And if these subjects were more commonplace, I think I would probably more readily think about it and assume, yeah, of course I need that to be sorted out, a solution. I love going running. I went boxing with my son for the first time last night and the whole, for the whole hour, all I was thinking is just like squeeze in, don't piss yourself, just like keep everything nice and tight. So no wee comes out and it's

• 17:43Speaker 02

  Finally just need to embrace it and get some tenor pads.

• 17:46Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I've already got, I've got the pants, I've got period pants on constantly. It's ridiculous. But there is, I think a lot of these subjects are kept really quiet and actually also our level of complaint around derogatory slurs that we have all probably had thrown our way over the years. I think bossy is a really interesting one because it seems quite innocuous and something that we hear from when we start school and it's again rarely put upon a boy. It's always a young girl or then if you're, you know, a boss at work or you're leading a team. If you're seen to be what a male might be called assertive, it's actually just she's bossy.

• 18:28Fearne Cotton?

  And, and that's deterring, I think, women from having a voice, having their say, saying what their needs are.

• 18:34Speaker 02

  And I think when you think that, you know, I remember being called bossy from as young as primary school. I was probably, you know, called bossy even as like a two year old, which is my daughter now. And I think that's why I wanted to shape the book in the way I did. So it's like girlhood, maidenhood, womanhood, singlehood, motherhood, elderhood, because I feel like so many of us experience these words and at the time, you're right, they feel like completely innocuous or harmless. But actually, we are conditioning girls to like, cause if you're saying, oh, don't be bossy or you're being very bossy. Of course, most of us wanna be the good girl. So well, okay, I better learn to be less assertive. And I remember at the time, I'd be thinking that I'd be being helpful. So if it was like pass the parcel at my party, I was like, right, everyone sit down.

• 19:19Speaker 02

  The music's gonna come on. It'd be, Ashley, stop being bossy. And in my head, I was like, but I'm trying to help. I don't get it. Whereas you're right, like, I don't think we ever would call a guy bossy.

• 19:28Fearne Cotton?

  No, I like taking charge sometimes. Like, I am a bit of a control freak, which might be another slur. But I am also someone that likes organisation. And if I think, if I sense things are lagging or things could be more motivated. I quite like being that person that's like, come on, we can do this, then that, get things moving. I like motivating. And I think it's so often seen as just plain old bossy. It's that simple.

• 19:56Speaker 02

  And also, don't you think when we think about the world we're kind of putting our daughters out into, I don't know how old.

• 20:04Fearne Cotton?

  Honey's ten now.

• 20:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. So like, you know, as she enters like her teens and then whether she goes to uni or gets a job. We need girls to be assertive. And I certainly felt in the book, I talk about lots of like very personal experiences that I haven't really discussed before. Not mainly to look at the way in which we like shrink girls and make make them feel not confident to say no or to be assertive. And so I feel like I want Ada to be bossy. I mean, it'd be much easier if she was bossy to everyone else and maybe not to me. Do you know what I mean? But then you're kind of like, no, I want her to keep this confidence. And the inspiration behind the book was that Ada's two.

• 20:42Speaker 02

  And when she looks in the mirror, she's so like, I love the way she looks at her body with like wonder and like pats her belly. And even like sees my belly, like she's always like saying how squishy it is and she loves it. And I think like, that was me, that was you. And we're born with like so much confidence for our voices and our bodies. And so why do we shrink it out of girls?

• 21:06Fearne Cotton?

  Gets beaten out of us, socially conditioned out of us. I so agree with you. I think the good girl trope holds so many of us grown women back still to this day. And I think it's, I've mulled over it a lot because I've been writing about that subject a bit. And I think a lot of the time, we genuinely question whether we're inherently good. We're not sure. You know, I've sat there many times, probably even at times last week, maybe even today, where there's some sort of subconscious pondering, like, am I a good person? Am I, or am I an awful person? And we're not quite sure.

• 21:47Fearne Cotton?

  So we assume if other people are there to validate, oh, good girl, you did, you did the right thing, which basically means to comply, then we can tell ourselves, oh, thank God, I'm, okay, I'm a good person, I'm a good person. But actually, that's what's, that's, that begins that whole shrinking process.

• 22:05Speaker 02

  And also, men aren't held to that same standard. Somebody was talking recently to me about Donald Trump, and they were saying, you know, he is, he might be a bit rogue, but he is the man who can lead us at the moment because it's a cruel world. And then I compared it to the way we treat Meghan Markle, for example, or even at the moment, like Nicola Peltz, they are the difficult women. So I think for us, we see the way other women are treated when they are considered difficult. And from, like, difficult feels like it's like when you don't stay in your lane and be compliant and be pleasing. And we're also very quick to always blame the woman and not the man. So like, you know,

• 22:45Speaker 02

  rather than Prince Harry and Brooklyn taking ownership of how they navigate their family dynamics, it's always, she's the homewrecker, it's her. And I'm like, hang on a minute, I thought men were really powerful and able to control the world. So how come it's like the witchy woman?

• 23:00Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 23:00Speaker 02

  And it is, it's like a modern day witch hunt, really, how we treat women who don't stay in our lane and behave.

• 23:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. Jane Goodall said something really brilliant, and I'll mess up the quote, but it was something like, it doesn't take much to be a difficult woman. That's why there's so many of us.

• 23:16Speaker 02

  Yes. Love that.

• 23:17Fearne Cotton?

  I love that.

• 23:18Speaker 02

  What an icon.

• 23:19Fearne Cotton?

  What an icon. Icon, what an icon. And, and also there's that other one that I bought my cousin a little plaque with it on this year and it's something about, it's just something along the same lines of women that aren't difficult or like the good girl rarely make history or something. The one, I can't think what it is, but it's

• 23:37Speaker 02

  Good girls rarely make history.

• 23:38Fearne Cotton?

  History, yeah. And it's so true that, you know, and that's not to imply that we don't want to help people out. You know, be part of something bigger than ourselves and, you know, do the right thing when it's needed, but not at the cost of living, and this sounds fucking cheesy, but living authentically. I think that word gets battered about so willy nilly, but it's, it's the one thing that we lose when we're complying is just remembering who we are and how we want to move through the world.

• 24:13Speaker 02

  And also I feel like what happiness for us is.

• 24:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 24:16Speaker 02

  Because I always found that, or I felt like when I was younger, for me, like the happy ever after was marriage babies. Cause that's where all like the rom coms we watch or the Disney movies, it ends with the woman and the man galloping off into the sunset. So there's no like, well, what happened after? Did he share the mental load? Did she get great girlfriends to support her? And so I felt like as I navigated singlehood in my mid twenties to late thirties, it suddenly hit me how much society viewed me as a failure. So, and I talk about this a lot on Bimbo that even though lots of my friends were in unhappy relationships, they were assumed to not be lonely and to be fulfilled. And, you know, so many of the tropes that we throw at single women.

• 25:01Speaker 02

  And we still, we blame singlehood on women. We don't say like, well, why aren't men stepping up and being good partners? And as you said, it's like that crazy cat lady, but also spinster. And I loved learning about the word spinster because spinsters were the original independent women because they earned a living from doing the, it's like sewing, isn't it? Being a spinster. So that to me made sense. I was like, oh, they were like independent and free and it got weaponized against them. And I used to always feel really sorry for like, Older women, if their partner died and then they were on their own, I was like, oh, that's so sad. And now I'm like, oh, no, I kind of get it. They were probably just like, oh, thank God, I don't have to look after anyone anymore. It's my time to be free.

• 25:41Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 25:42Speaker 02

  And so I feel like the whole way that I've seen that happy ever after, I think I call it in my book, Happy Never After. That it's like the idea of happiness and completion can look completely different to what we've been taught. And I want Ada to grow up, you know, knowing that she can be anything, she can have children or not have children. She can get married or not get married. And I also try to like, never assume that she's gonna meet a man and be straight. And then she has to like, come out of that box to be herself. So it's, it's just like, yeah. It's frightening how much already she is having put on her that I obviously can't control.

• 26:21Fearne Cotton?

  No, I mean, we don't know, you know, certainly when like my kids are now ten and thirteen. And it's, you know, you know, what their friends are saying to them, what they're watching sometimes on YouTube. Although you try and keep a handle on that or what the messaging is in films. It'd be absurd to think we can control the whole narrative. But I think like, if you look back, you're so right. Like when, if you look back to when I was a kid, I remember going to my nan's. And obviously like when, when we were sort of in the eighties, nineties, your grandparents weren't like, right, let's do an activity. They were like, put you in front of the TV and then they'd go off and, you know, do the gardening or whatever. And I was put in front of the TV to watch Grease and I was transfixed. I remember being like,

• 27:03Fearne Cotton?

  I want to go to American high school. This is amazing. I love every bit of it. And now you look back and you go, holy shit, that storyline's problematic. She was bullied for being the person she turned up as. So she then started wearing black tight leggings and everyone loved her and she got the guy. What the fuck?

• 27:20Speaker 02

  And I feel like there's even one bit where he like kisses her without consent.

• 27:24Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:24Speaker 02

  As well, but also the thing that like,

• 27:26Fearne Cotton?

  In the car.

• 27:27Speaker 02

  The thing that I find the maddest about Grease is even when I watch it now, I'm like, why are they all so old?

• 27:33Fearne Cotton?

  Why are they thirty pretending to be eighteen?

• 27:35Speaker 02

  And I feel like I still look at them as older than me.

• 27:37Fearne Cotton?

  I know. The whole thing is mad. I still actually. Would go as far to say is I would enjoy watching it, but with an understanding that the plot is a problem.

• 27:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:48Fearne Cotton?

  The plot is a problem.

• 27:49Speaker 02

  Do you know what, I feel like that's the great thing that we could do, like if I were to watch it with Alfonada, I feel like you could be like, chat about it afterwards.

• 27:57Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:57Speaker 02

  What do you think about the bit where he kissed her?

• 27:59Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 28:00Speaker 02

  And then, so I feel like you can, you still can enjoy problematic, I suppose you'd call them movies, but because they're going to see things and read things.

• 28:09Fearne Cotton?

  Of course.

• 28:09Speaker 02

  And like especially in this online world where apparently like kids as young as eight are seeing violent porn, and I think that's why we have to be able to talk to them.

• 28:17Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 28:17Speaker 02

  About what they're seeing and what they're consuming, because we can't wrap them up in cotton wool.

• 28:21Fearne Cotton?

  We can't, I think you're so right, like having those discussions, but it is, I think films like Grease, I'm not purely blaming Grease for God's sake, but we were just indoctrinated in so many ways when we were children with, you know, fairy tales or pantomimes or movies, whatever it might be, and how it has a lasting impression in so many interesting ways. One of the things that really got me that you talked about in the book was your inability, looking back now as a teenager and young woman, to say no to men. And I had exactly the same experience where I think many, many women did of my generation and your generation, growing up, we didn't feel that we had the right, the place or

• 29:05Fearne Cotton?

  the confidence to say, I don't want to do that, or I just want to stay in tonight and not do anything, or whatever, whatever varying degree of severity we're talking about. I think we found it very hard to say no because we wanted to be liked, we wanted to be adored by them. So we, we played ball. I remember like changing my music tastes according to who I was with and what the hell is that about? Like I was too scared to go, I, your music tastes are awful. I'd pretend I liked it and like go to gigs that I hated, like ridiculous stuff. And obviously then moving into other territory, which is tricky. I mean, you tell one horror story about when you're walking along the street as a young

• 29:49Fearne Cotton?

  person, do you mind telling that now?

• 29:51Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, so I talk a lot about my experiences of sexual harassment and sexual assault. And I really grappled with whether or not to share the stories, but I wanted to, to look at how we. Treat shame and victim blaming. And also, I think, you know, when we're talking about our experiences at school, that's our normal. So we didn't question it because that was the way it was. And talking about films as well, like American Pie, I speak a lot about in the book. Cause that kind of shaped the way we viewed like that, boys will be boys culture and the kind of slut shaming culture and sexuality, which is something else I speak about in the book.

• 30:29Speaker 02

  But with the different experiences I had, I think I was thirteen and I was walking through Carlisle and a man stopped me to say, oh, are you a model? And, you know, somebody that was just kind of discovering that the world thought I was pretty. And who never felt pretty or validated growing up. I was like, no. And he was like, oh, you could be. I work with loads of. Agencies in London and I like, if you grew up, especially where I did, like London is like, ooh, you could make me a model in London. So he said, let's go around the corner and I'll take some images for you. And he kept saying, oh, just put your top a little bit lower, a little bit lower. And he was coming in and I did.

• 31:09Speaker 02

  Realise pretty quickly that I'd been kind of scammed, but I was also like on my own.

• 31:16Fearne Cotton?

  You were thirteen.

• 31:17Speaker 02

  And I, I even like now I'd be like, no, this is inappropriate. Go away. But I remember thinking, oh no, what have I done? And I didn't even tell my parents or friends because I felt stupid. And I think I call the chapter in the book, silly girl. Because we do question always, and not just us as a society, but also our court systems. Why the like, what was she wearing? What was she doing? Was she drunk? Why did she go around? Like. In my case, why did you go around there with him? You should have known better. Or we tell girls, and so many of us do it with good intentions. You can't go out like that. Why are you wearing that? And it's teaching us that if anything happens to us, it's because we haven't done the job of protecting ourselves properly.

• 31:58Fearne Cotton?

  No one's saying he was a dirty old pervert walking around the streets with a camera. I, I mean, it is. Absurd. I think that is one of the biggest problems that we've still got in society today is that the emphasis is on the woman. The man is almost taken out of the equation in this situation. And for you as a young person. That is a horrendous thing to have to go through.

• 32:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you know, there were lots of other experiences and I I talk about in the book about, you know, my experience at university where I was raped and I've never talked about it, but I think about it every day. And I remember having a discussion with a friend saying, I don't know whether to put this in the book or not. Because I still feel a sense of obviously upset because it's something that I I feel like really does take something huge away from you, but also I didn't come forward and it actually took me a long time. It was only when I um told an ex at the time and he was like, no, you were raped. And I thought, oh, no, but, you know, I was drunk and I and, you know, I was still like blaming myself.

• 33:00Speaker 02

  And I think that's that is what we do as a society and that is the message we tell young girls, like the more we tell someone what, but also the ironic thing for me is especially back then, when I think club culture was so much bigger and that is just what you did. Like, we didn't set the dress codes. You know, like you had to dress a certain way to get into the club, but then we almost blamed the woman for dressing that way. And it's not like, you know, I couldn't afford to get a taxi home or anything like that. But um yeah, I I really I think was inspired by the absolutely horrific case of Gisele Pellicho and the way in which she dealt with something so horrific with so much

• 33:41Speaker 02

  grace and the way she turned up every day with her head held high and she said the shame needs to change sides. And I thought, how can I write a book about shame and about all the things that make women feel small if I don't talk about that and and use it as a kind of tool to look at how we blame women. And I tell a story about a case in Italy where a woman was raped in a toilet in a bar or nightclub. And because she didn't lock the toilet door, the court, the judge decided that she had given mixed signals. So it's not just that. The culture of victim blaming needs to change, but it's like the whole system. The ecosystem does.

• 34:22Speaker 02

  And the more we put, make, ah, like the more we internalize it ourselves, the less likely we are to demand that the system changes. And God forbid, anything ever happened to my daughter, would I want her to feel like that was her dirty little secret? Absolutely not, because she did, I did nothing wrong. So I think that was my reason for wanting to include something that I still find really difficult to talk about, because it's like, I, enough now, I don't want to feel like it's this secret, or that I'm a victim, or, you know, like, I, I should actually be able to hold my head up high, but also demand better so that other women don't have to feel like they could have controlled it.

• 35:06Speaker 03

  The youth mental health crisis is growing, and social media is a major driver. Kids are spending up to nine hours a day on screens, often unsupervised, and studies show a direct link to anxiety, depression, and even suicidal thoughts. That's where Gab comes in. Gab offers safer phones and watches for kids with no social media, tailored to every age, offering the right tech at the right time, or Tech in Steps. From GPS tracking-enabled watches for younger kids, to phones with parent-enabled apps for teens, each device allows kids to more safely grow their independence. Visit gab.com/getgab and use code GETGAB for an exclusive offer.

• 35:48Speaker 03

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• 36:29Speaker 06

  It's time. It's the most wonderful time of the year. Halloween.

• 36:37Speaker 04

  And you guys know we don't do Halloween by halves.

• 36:40Speaker 06

  Full costume, full prosthetics, full commitment. I'm a rat.

• 36:43Speaker 04

  And I'm the chef. It's our Ratatouille special. Then we're grabbing our broomsticks for the witches.

• 36:50Speaker 06

  We've got a spooky hotline caller.

• 36:52Speaker 04

  An update from our woman who was in love with the ghost of Prince Albert.

• 36:55Speaker 06

  And your tarot card dilemmas.

• 36:57Speaker 04

  Listen to our Halloween specials, search for The Girl's Bathroom.

• 37:06Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, it's a really tricky thing to start writing about, to then have to talk about in this capacity. But do you feel like there is a slight weight taken from you now having said those words out loud?

• 37:25Speaker 02

  I think I'm really scared because I don't want it to be sensationalised or questioned. And I think I try to almost preempt the like, I know that often when anyone talks about it, you see this backlash in a way of, well, why didn't she talk? Why has it taken so long? Why didn't they report it? Why didn't? So already it feels like the victim is on trial. So I think, I wouldn't say relief, but it's like, well, I did nothing wrong. And, and it's more, I don't want anyone else to either live with the shame, or if it ever does, God forbid, happen, for them to live with that shame.

• 38:06Speaker 02

  And I think I really wanted this book to, it is the book that I wish I'd had as a teenager, or I wish I'd had in my twenties, I wish I'd had when I was navigating singlehood or new motherhood. And so I wanted to be as like honest as possible about everything.

• 38:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. Do you think the shame element's gone? Because I think that I've had like big periods of my life where I've lived like drowning in shame. And not that I've talked about, you know, my whole life publicly. I don't want to, feel the need to, or I'm anywhere near ready. But I think when you know you can chat to, in my case, it's my therapist, or if it's a friend about things that you know make you feel full of shame, there is something magical about saying it and that shame slightly dissipating. It might not go entirely, but I think there's great power in it not living secretly. Because when it's.

• 39:02Fearne Cotton?

  In your head exclusively, that's when I think you can just become so blinded by it. It's so all consuming. So have you found that even just having that private time to put it down on your laptop and get it out of you, there was a slight shift?

• 39:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think I've had enough of living with shame and and like another great example is I talk a lot about like the hypersexualisation of the female body and my experience as someone who had really big boobs from the age of fourteen and I still actually feel a huge sense of shame now, but I can be like enough actually, like this, your body is not the problem, the way society judges and sexualises a woman's body is. And I feel like, how am I now thirty eight? I've got two kids and I'm still being policed in how I dress and it's that the labels of like frumpy, slutty, who have you got the girls out for? And we don't treat

• 40:01Speaker 02

  treat men in that way. Like Tommy sometimes walks around with his top off when it, my partner, when it's a hot day or we'll see other men do it. And I would say to him, oh, asking for it. Because it highlights the ridiculousness.

• 40:12Fearne Cotton?

  It's insane.

• 40:13Speaker 02

  I I am sparked debate or when I was breastfeeding my kids, there'd be debate around whether it was appropriate to breastfeed or whether I was attention seeking. And I remember thinking, who do you think I want attention from in this setting?

• 40:26Fearne Cotton?

  Your child.

• 40:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. And interestingly, I got my account blocked on TikTok for child pornography because I put on a clip, it was about motherhood of, and there there happened to be a clip of me breastfeeding. You couldn't see anything, but even if you could, it's like, hang on. So we allowed for too long voices like Andrew Tate's telling people it was okay to strangle women, but you draw the line at breastfeeding and why is that sexual, but why is that sexual? And I think that's again, like, it's such a tool of shame that whether I was a child, which was fourteen, being told like, cover up, don't you don't want to distract the boys, you don't want to distract men, you don't want to get unwanted attention. Sorry, I'm a child. Teach men not to de-sexualise and objectify us. And I also wanted to look at like the

• 41:12Speaker 02

  Way in which we teach kids about female bodies and sex education. Because I feel like we only really learn either these days more so through like porn, which is often very like catered to male gaze and male pleasure and quite violent. Or in a very like reproductive way and it's like we're more than sexual beings and sexual organs and I I don't want to be policed for my body and I know female politicians also experience the same, right, but they're constantly people focus on. I remember, I think it was Lisa Nandi in Parliament about 10 years ago, there was an article saying, whose boobs are these? Because she was wearing like a top and it's like, I'm sorry, I'm a woman, I do have cleavage.

• 41:54Speaker 02

  A huge debate on this morning, ironically, I was talking about when the photographer yelled at Hannah Waddell, get your legs out. And I was saying how.

• 42:02Fearne Cotton?

  That that whole moment was so great, her just giving them shit back.

• 42:06Speaker 02

  And good and and she is someone that's like, I refuse to be objectified. And we need to see more of that. And I was talking about the objectification of the female body and I came off air and people were like going mad and complaining about my cleavage and I was wearing like this three piece suit, I was still breastfeeding. To be honest, I was so chuffed that I'd found a bra that didn't show with the suit. I didn't even think about the fact I had cleavage and I was like, but there is that I guess that teenage girl still in me that's like, oh no, have I been a bad girl? But why? Why is my breast size linked to my morality or my promiscuity? Why can't I just have a body? Because you know, sometimes I'm like, maybe I should just get like a boob job so that

• 42:47Speaker 02

  I don't have to live with it anymore. And every woman I've spoken to who has had a breast reduction is like, it it freed my life. But then the other side of me is like, no, fuck off. Why do I have to essentially pay to mutilate myself to almost be not shamed and not sexualized? And what if my daughter, funny enough, Ada woke up this morning. I'd not seen her for a while because I'd been on a work trip and she was like, mommy, mommy, how did you get here when I'm a big, big girl? I'll have big boobies like you. And right now I've got small boobies. And I was thinking, yeah, if you have the like my body one day, I'm why teaching you that actually to be left alone, you should get a breast reduction. Like, no, I want, and I think a lot of it.

• 43:31Speaker 02

  Comes from women because we have been taught so much internalized misogyny and I'm always unpicking things. I think I said something in the book and I left it in because I said something about granny pants. And then I was like, oh, is that ageism and misogyny kind of tied into one? And I I love that. I'm always learning. And I wanted the book to kind of make people consider like, oh, yeah, I say that. I didn't even think about that. Or I punched down on other women. I definitely used to always punch down on other women. And I I think there's a chapter called like pick me girl. And I was the perfect pick me because I felt like I didn't want to be like a girl because I'd been taught and we're all taught that doing anything like a girl is not as serious or not as respected as rejecting femininity.

• 44:15Fearne Cotton?

  Yes, that's such an interesting topic. And again, it's something that I've been thinking about a lot recently, especially at my age, where the whole sort of aging debate comes into it as well. You're not allowed to age, but equally if you have botox, then you're judged. So again, like with your body, you you can't win. Whatever you're doing, there is no perfect outcome where everybody's happy and like, oh, yes, you're a woman that I can like and respect and take seriously, but also you're attractive. It's it's so mad, the level of scrutiny and judgment. And actually, what your book's doing perfectly and what I think many of us are trying to delicately chat about, you know, and I think for people listening to this now, you'll probably hear both of us constantly having

• 45:00Fearne Cotton?

  to put in little disclaimers or say, but also if you want to be that kind of woman, it's okay. Because we know that there is just so much judgment on everything we're saying and doing. And none of us, we can't speak for every single female experience out there. Everybody's going through something entirely different. You can speak to yours, I can speak to mine. But I think most women feel trapped in this limbo land of not quite knowing how to be a feminist. And the fact that, like you've just said, we might have to reject femininity altogether to be seen as someone that can be taken seriously. You Know very well, the wonderful Carol Vorderman. She's almost like a mentor, would you say?

• 45:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I actually call her Auntie Carol.

• 45:47Fearne Cotton?

  Auntie Carol.

• 45:48Speaker 02

  She is.

• 45:49Fearne Cotton?

  She's an icon. And I think she is perfectly demonstrating everything that I'm trying to say now by being one of the smartest, highest IQs out there. Yet she also decides on certain days to wear very figure hugging clothing and she'll wiggle her bum to camera. And then she'll do a maths equation. And why the fuck not?

• 46:10Speaker 02

  I honestly love her, like the

• 46:13Fearne Cotton?

  Me too.

• 46:14Speaker 02

  The support that she's given me personally. And actually, she's one of the quotes on the book. She was the first to be like, yeah, love to do it. She is a powerhouse of a woman. And like you say, like she doesn't care. Like she is like, I am, I'm beauty and brains. And I was always taught you can be one or the other. She is like, she does not give a fuck. And we should all aspire, whatever our path looks like to be more like Carol, basically.

• 46:42Fearne Cotton?

  Be more Carol, be more Carol. And like you said a moment ago, just looping back to that. It's often other women that are judging us, you know, this is not a conversation where we're going. Men are all twats and men need to think that, you know, it's the patriarchy has indoctrinated all of us to have this internal misogyny. That then, you know, ensues in ways where we're looking at other people in our lives or female celebrities. And we're, we're judging them. This is not, you know, a rhetoric that's coming from men, you know, there, there's problems in all areas. But a lot of the time it's other women saying, oh, well, I didn't do that. Well, I did that. Well, I wouldn't act like that. And it's, it's just so noisy.

• 47:27Speaker 02

  And I think we're like chained to all these like dichotomies. It's like Madonna, whore, Hailey versus Selena and. I feel like it it's all done deliberately, like even like breastfeeding, bottle feeding. Why are we debating that? Men aren't having to defend how their babies fed. And so it and it's perpetuated by like the media and the language. And I I noticed that, you know, the woman is always flaunting her figure or showing off her postpartum. And it's all these ways to slowly try and make us punch down on each other. Instead of kind of coming together, I think one of the chapters in the book, I talk about sisterhood, because it was like almost my realisation that I'm like, we

• 48:09Speaker 02

  could be so powerful together. Sometimes I think, wow, I think there is like fifty one percent, the world is fifty one percent women or fifty three percent women. Think how much we tolerate. And the fact we're we're not equal, like if we all realise, like stopped the infighting that we're kind of taught to do. And actually, well, I, we could stop all of this patriarchal bullshit. And I think I always said jokingly that I want to bimbo to like destroy the patriarchy, because I want people to read it and be like, oh, yeah, I've done that. Whether it's a, I know I used to talk about mothers in a really bad way. And I tried to be really honest about that, that I had such a negative perception of motherhood, which obviously hit me like a ton of bricks when suddenly I was on the other side of it. And I was like, oh, no, but I'm not, I'm actually really nice.

• 48:54Speaker 02

  Or whether it's, you know, I remember like being really ageist. I talk really openly about that, but I feel like we we don't learn, we're we're taught to become that way through everything we consume, even like the fat phobia that we're taught, that's actually like detrimental to all of us, because it makes us all live with this idea that like we have to be the most shrunken, physically shrunken version of ourself, even if it's not healthy. And I want this book to make people stop and think, oh, yeah, I do that, or I think that way, so that hopefully we just like can ignore the noise and like just be kinder to each other.

• 49:31Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I think so much of it is it's so ingrained that we don't even know we're saying these things or thinking it sometimes. And again, there needs to be, like you said, room for us all to catch ourselves, to learn, to think. Oh, maybe I'm gonna use different language or judge that person less than I have been. It's, you know, it's a big learning curve for all of us. I don't think, you know, you're certainly not expecting everyone to be completely up to date with everything immediately. Like, we're all learning on the job here and I'm picking hundreds of years.

• 50:04Speaker 02

  And I wanted this book to be the book that isn't like coming from a high place or a pedestal of like, look at me, I'm so worldly on feminism. It's a kind of like, I don't do none of this and I've done all of these things. And here's what I've learned. And I talk about, you know, like, history, whether it's the crazy cat lady or the spinster, or whether it's looking at the history of marriage and that whole idea of-

• 50:27Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, we need to get into that.

• 50:31Speaker 03

  The youth mental health crisis is growing and social media is a major driver. Kids are spending up to nine hours a day on screens, often unsupervised, and studies show a direct link to anxiety, depression, and even suicidal thoughts. That's where Gab comes in. Gab offers safer phones and watches for kids with no social media, tailored to every age, offering the right tech at the right time, or tech in steps. From GPS tracking-enabled watches for younger kids to phones with parent-enabled apps for teens, each device allows kids to more safely grow their independence. Visit gab.com/getgab and use code GETGAB for an

• 51:11Speaker 03

  exclusive offer. That's G A B B dot com forward slash get gab. Gab, tech in steps. Independence for them, peace of mind for parents.

• 51:22Speaker 07

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• 51:52Speaker 05

  Help I Sexed My Boss is the podcast where manners meets mayhem. I'm William Hanson. I'm Jordan North. And together we take on the hilarious challenges of modern life. William's the arbiter of etiquette. And Jordan's the chaotic yin to my perfectly polished yang. So if you want laugh-out-loud stories and brutally honest moments, then you'll love- I sexed in my bus. Watch and listen every Tuesday and Friday on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Just search Sexted. Be warned, it's a bit rude.

• 52:25Fearne Cotton?

  Let's talk about marriage because you, you're absolutely vehemently not going to get married.

• 52:31Speaker 02

  If I get married, I think just check in on me and make sure that was something that I wanted to do. Because I'd be shocked if I changed my mind on this. But interestingly, every time I get interviewed, not every time, but when I, often when I get interviewed, they'll say, oh, do you hope he's going to pop the question yet? And I'm always like, I hope not. And they look horrified. And also, it's one of the things I find the most difficult to talk about. And so I try to be really careful because I, loads of my friends want to get married. And also I wanna, I want them to know that if they choose to get married, I'll be at that wedding. And I want, you know, I don't want anyone to think that I'm judging. But I honestly, I've asked so many friends, probably to an irritating level, like, why are you married?

• 53:14Speaker 02

  Men and women, because I'm like, I'm trying to understand what the appeal is. And it feels a bit like I'm not in on the excitement that everyone else is. And I'm like, what am I missing? I feel like I've been plucked from a completely different planet and I can't, I can't get my head around it.

• 53:29Fearne Cotton?

  Well, I think you explain very articulately some of the reasons. And some of them are tied up in the ceremony itself, which I hadn't really taken the time to properly digest. One of them being the infamous bouquet throw. We, we've all been there, we've seen it, we might have even rugby tackled someone to the floor to try and grab it. Again, has been pressed upon us that we should be the lucky one that catches the bouquet. So we're chosen next. And again, all the emphasis on the girl being the lucky one, the woman being the chosen one. And the man being the one who's just sat there going, oh, maybe her, whatever.

• 54:05Speaker 02

  Hopefully she doesn't get it.

• 54:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, joking around about that. Whereas you say in the book, why have we not got a row of men stood there? They should be rugby tackling each other to the floor to be the lucky chosen one. I'd never thought about that.

• 54:17Speaker 02

  Research shows the happiest people, single women. Single child free women and married men. And when you think of in a traditional gender role, so I'm not saying that marriages can't be amazing and equal. But when you look at like the traditional role, like the woman gives so much of herself. I I look at like the mental load if you choose to have children. Like, men get so much more from marriage than we do. They essentially, in a traditional sense, get a maid, therapist, cook, child bearer, child raiser, like all of these things. And yet, it it's like, I call it, I think it's like patriarchal gaslighting, that word, we are the lucky ones.

• 55:01Speaker 02

  But even though evidence shows that it literally takes years off our life, because we give so much and we're left burnt out. And obviously, lots of people at the moment are trying to blame feminism. But feminism means that we have the choice either to get married or not get married without living with the social shame, but also to leave if it's ever becomes like dangerous or unhappy. And so I just don't understand how we've been told, like even like, oh, she said yes, or I said yes. And it's like, but can't we have more say? And why are we still asking for the man's permission? Like, why isn't our yes enough? They have to also, it's so often asked of the dad.

• 55:44Speaker 02

  And I know that lots of people see that as a sign of respect. So I just try to look at like the history of all of that, like the time ball and chain. Oh, it's my ball and chain. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's not good. It's fucking mad, isn't it? The whole thing is so, it's so unbelievably bonkers. But Martin Lewis did tell me that actually I'm crazy for not getting married. He was like, if you're an independently smart woman, and I think I'd also talk about this in the book, that um the laws still benefit married women. So if I were, I did say to Tommy once, I have found a reason to get married. Basically, if one of us dies, and he was like, oh, how romantic.

• 56:25Speaker 02

  But yeah, it's really interesting. So I I talk about all of that. And even, you know, if I was someone who quit my job to have children, then I would also get married because you're giving yourself protection so that if it ever didn't work out. So I try to give like a really fair balanced view where I li- I look at all the history and I and the patriarchal gaslighting, but also the reality and the protections.

• 56:50Fearne Cotton?

  I think the the dynamic is so interesting, whether you're married or not, if you have children or maybe even don't have children, you live with your partner and it's a heterosexual relationship. The emotional load that a woman carries is, and this is not my opinion, this is statistically written out. Far, the disparity is huge. And when Gabor Maté came on the podcast Yonks ago, I couldn't tell you when it was, but he often brings out those exact statistics. And that is why so many women disproportionately have autoimmune diseases because we are stressed to the core, trying to juggle a million different things, facilitating so many different people's needs. And we

• 57:33Fearne Cotton?

  we're we're told subliminally again that our needs really do not matter, that everybody should be above us. And if we ever exercise any desire to do something for us, it's seen as like, oh, who does she think she is doing something for herself?

• 57:51Speaker 02

  Who's looking after the kids?

• 57:52Fearne Cotton?

  Who's looking after the kids?

• 57:53Speaker 02

  But also, don't let yourself go.

• 57:55Fearne Cotton?

  No, no.

• 57:56Speaker 02

  So service the children, service your husband.

• 57:58Fearne Cotton?

  Better fucking look good.

• 57:59Speaker 02

  Chapter in my book called Lie Back and Think of England. So it's like having to do, have make sure the house is tidy, making sure the kids are tidy, making sure your husband is sexually serviced and looked after and feels loved. But also, don't let yourself go.

• 58:11Fearne Cotton?

  No, I think so many people, again, don't talk about this. I mean, I've talked about it with my friends for years and years. But when you are a mother, and also if you work on top of that, but but not even if you're if you're looking after children and you talk about in the book, when you're like touched out, when you've been touched so many times by your kids, because they they, you know, they're like pulling at you and their toddlers or, you know, even when they're big kids or asking for things. And it's so overstimulating. Like last night, my.

• 58:40Fearne Cotton?

  Daughter had a friend over and they were watching YouTube dance routines so loudly and I could feel myself, I was so overstimulated. I needed to like run out, I didn't run out of the house, but I needed to like get out of there. It was just, everything's also consuming. When you've got little children pilling at you, if you're breastfeeding, then you get them to bed eventually. All you want to do is close your eyes and blackout. And then if you've got a partner who wants physical touch or sex, it can feel like the last thing you wanna do. And again, women are scared to say that because they're like, oh, people are gonna think that you're, you know, I don't know what it is, like you're not, you're not being a good enough wife or that you're not prioritising sex. And it's like, oh my god, we can't win.

• 59:25Speaker 02

  And I think so much of that is that kind of inner misogyny that we have about motherhood. Because I definitely said, I will never put my relationship second. I'll never prioritise the kids. But like before my partner, I'll never let our sex life go. And, but we don't, and we almost like put the blame on the woman. You know, like if he leaves, it's because she, like she let herself go or she, because she slept with her kids or she gave up. And I, that's the reason I tried to talk about it. Cause also imagine how much better relationships would be if we actually knew what we were getting ourselves into, whereas I feel like we're almost sold this rose tinted version of motherhood where we think we will be able to prioritise our partner and

• 1:00:06Fearne Cotton?

  And do everything.

• 1:00:08Speaker 02

  And do everything else. And maybe some people can, but that wasn't me. But then you feel like a failure and like a bad wife or bad partner. I wish if we were just more open about it, we'd kind of stop blaming the woman or the mother. And also for mothers to feel empowered that it's not a them problem. It's just like, almost like systemic problem that we're putting too much. And especially when they'll be like, oh, he changes nappies. So he's really hands on. No, I'm hands on.

• 1:00:33Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I'm a hands on mum.

• 1:00:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:35Fearne Cotton?

  I know, it's, I think a big, it is systemic because not only do we have these nuclear families where often we're moving away from, back in the day, it would have been aunties, uncles, grandparents who all could have mucked in. And there are some communities, I think, you know, some countries in Europe are better than we are at doing it. I think Sweden's pretty good on the map for that kind of thing. But we are notoriously bad in the UK. People move away from home, not always, but often so. Childcare is insanely expensive, so people do have to make the choice, usually the women, if they want to work or not. So then all of the pressure is on this one person who's having to do everything in the home, be a mum and try and if they can, go out and earn money.

• 1:01:15Fearne Cotton?

  It's, it's asking so much of people. And I think, you know, that's way beyond my intellect or understanding of, of what the government could do to give them more support. So they're not ending up with autoimmune issues or just feeling like utter shit and desperate.

• 1:01:32Speaker 02

  But I think recognizing the problem, which hopefully like I spell out clearly in the book, like even just recognizing the problem, because I, I think we have moved so far away from the nineteen fifties, but the expectations are still there. So we are out in the workplace and doing the masculine roles, but we're also expected to do all the female roles and rewarding men and praising men as if they are the nineteen fifties men. Like it shouldn't be remarkable that someone changes a nappy. Or if I, I remember when I'd go out to DJ and people'd be like, who's looking after the baby? The dad? Oh, is he really hands on? Yeah, yeah, we both are. Yeah, he works and I work and we both look after. But you see it all the time. Like we, some dads still say they're babysitting. And I'm like, I'm sorry, you, you can't babysit your own children.

• 1:02:18Fearne Cotton?

  No, you're just being a dad. I remember once putting a video, and I feel like I need to do disclaimers every fucking ten seconds having talks like this, but there will always be someone who's like, you chose to have kids, just be grateful. And it's like, it goes without saying that I love my children, I'll do anything for them, I wouldn't change anything. But the pressure and the expectation on women can still alongside it as a dialectic truth be discussed and warrants the weight of chatting about this pressure because so many of us are feeling it.

• 1:02:51Speaker 02

  And also so that we can provide better support. And I hate this idea of like, well, you chose to have kids. Okay. Well, I chose to work in a supermarket or I chose to like work in television. If you have like a bad boss or your conditions are bad, and even if it was your dream job, like you're allowed to change that job or you're allowed to go to HR and make a complaint, like. Just because you choose motherhood doesn't mean that you have to like put up with the crap. And actually, every like, everyone loves their kids and are grateful for their kids. But it doesn't mean that things couldn't be better. And, you know, seventy four thousand women every year have to leave their jobs because they cannot afford the cost of childcare, or they cannot got flexible working.

• 1:03:36Speaker 02

  So not only is that putting women back in homes that aren't choosing to be back in homes, but like, I'm sure there's research that shows it's economically more beneficial to have affordable childcare. And then also that takes some of the shame away that when you do have childcare, that's you put like, oh, well, I wouldn't have children just to let someone else raise them. Or, oh, you've got a nanny, as if it's like this real privilege. But it shouldn't be a privilege to have support, especially not if you're working, because you can't do both. And it's frustrating when you see in so many other countries, like I talk about my sister's experience in the book in Holland, of, you know, having someone that came and lived in her house for two weeks. We're made to feel like failures because we don't have that level of support.

• 1:04:15Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah. I, I mean, I put that pressure on myself. I will kill myself trying to get this, get the kids to school because the kids' school isn't so near my house, I can't walk there. Race back, stuff food in my face, get myself ready for a full day of work, race back, do the school run again. And then if I do say to my mate Ella, oh babe, could you get the kids off to school and I'll come and get them from your house? I feel like I've fucked up. I mean, it's absurd.

• 1:04:39Speaker 02

  Meanwhile, meanwhile, you'll go on social media and there'll be some like child free guy in his twenties being like, make sure you get eight hours sleep. Make sure you cook all your meals from scratch. And so then we're made feeling like, oh no.

• 1:04:52Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I had four seconds sleep last night. I'm sleeping so bad at the moment. It's, the whole thing is so bonkers. I mean, we certainly don't have long enough today to dissect not only everything in your brilliant book, but just this topic because it's so huge. And I knew today that we would only be able to grab at these tiny moments to chat about because it's, it's a conversation that needs to keep on happening. You know, well outside of your book and this podcast and for, you know, men and women to. Chat about all of this because it benefits everybody.

• 1:05:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:26Fearne Cotton?

  All of it benefits everybody. And I think that's the, the, the, the takeaways for me from, from your book are we've all got to judge other women less. First of all, because we don't have a fucking clue about their reality. We haven't got a clue. I barely know who I am. So why am I judging somebody else and their choices? And also that, that this conversation benefits everybody if we continue to have this fluid chat between all genders.

• 1:05:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:53Fearne Cotton?

  And looking at all of these issues that have just been part of our history for hundreds of years.

• 1:05:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think I, for me, it's about like turning pain into power and hopefully making people just consider as many of the experiences of womanhood, like so while mine will be different to yours, we all face the same gendered labels and boxes and pressures and we're all trying to be like the good girl or the good woman or the good wife. And so, yeah, I hope it allows people to, and also to believe in themselves, most importantly.

• 1:06:26Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, exactly. Have your own back.

• 1:06:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:29Fearne Cotton?

  Ashley, where's your happy place?

• 1:06:31Speaker 02

  My happy place, I think, isn't a physical place. It's when I'm trusting my own gut and my own needs in that moment. So one day my happy place is with my kids. The next is out with my girlfriends. The next is thriving in my career, but it's just listening to myself.

• 1:06:51Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, love that. Thank you so much for being on Happy Place today.

• 1:06:54Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me on. Loved it.

• 1:06:57Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, Ashley, thank you so much for your time. I, I mean, that chat could have gone on and on and on. I really loved it. Just what a topic, you know, as if we could cover that topic in an hour or under an hour. It's absolutely impossible. We did our very best to squeeze as much in as we could, but of course, do go and read the book, Bimbo. It's out on the 12th of February. So you can get more into this subject matter and ponder further on all of these interesting topics. Hey, I hope you're going to be here next week, by the way, especially if you're currently considering a drastic haircut after a breakup, or want to learn to be more confident in the way you physically express yourself.

• 1:07:40Fearne Cotton?

  Hairdresser to the mega-stars, Chris Appleton, is going to be here, and I have to say, the chat I had with him was incredibly profound. Until then, though, a massive thanks again to Ashley, to the producer and Ashka Tate at Happy Place Studios, and to you, do not even begin to think about shrinking yourself.

• 1:08:27Speaker 03

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• 1:09:12Speaker 03

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• 1:09:18Speaker 04

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