Stephen Graham and Orly Klein: "Consent, compassion, condom!" The advice teenage boys need

What part do male role models need to play in young boys’ lives? How do we raise young men with empathy and love? What should masculinity even mean? Adolescence’s Stephen Graham has teamed up with psychology researcher Orly Klein to answer these questions. In this chat with Fearne, Stephen and Orly explore what they’ve learnt about manhood, fatherhood, and generational trauma through asking lots of dads to write letters to their sons. They chat about why we need to stop treating boys like they’re a problem to be fixed, and why it’s so important to offer them positive messages so they don’t fall into the hands of toxic influencers. Plus, Stephen reveals how he felt about filming each Adolescence episode in one take... Stephen and Orly’s book, Letters To Our Sons, is out now. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Ashley Walters https://pod.fo/e/2da5a5 Caitlin Moran https://pod.fo/e/60c721 Sam Claflin https://pod.fo/e/385d6d Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Fearne Cotton?

  Hello and a massive welcome to Happy Place with me Fern Cotton. This is the show that shines a light on the stuff that can be difficult to talk about. Today, I'm chatting to Stephen Graham and Ollie Klein.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  Look, if I'm really honest, I just remember when I read an article and I read that, you know, a young girl had been stabbed to death in Liverpool and there was three boys that were arrested. It hit my heart. I just thought, how have we got to this point where a young lad thinks that this is okay or an even possibility? Where does that come from?

• 0:32Speaker 02

  And we don't have a clear message for boys at all. I think we've been quite good at having a clear positive message for girls, but we just don't have one for boys.

• 0:41Speaker 01

  I feel the biggest masculine quality of a man is his vulnerability. Irrespective of your political views, ultimately you want to raise a young man who has empathy and love.

• 0:54Fearne Cotton?

  So, like many of you, I am entering the realms of having teenage children. My son is 13 and I guess with that new little age category that I'm in comes some fear, I guess. It's fear, isn't it? And also me sort of burying my head in the sand slightly. Whether you've got teenage girls or boys, I think it's a time where the worry does ramp up slightly. You want to let them go off and find out who they are in the world and work out what they like and who they want to hang out with, but you've got to also loosen the reins and that feels terrifying. I think especially bringing up kids in this digital day and age where, you know, they

• 1:38Fearne Cotton?

  might have phones or they've got tablets and they're looking at, whether it's YouTube or Snapchat or whatever they're using. And it's hard to know how much of it we should be governing and looking at and how much we should be checking in on the content they're watching and how you go about it. It's what, you know, me and many of my mates talk about constantly. How do we parent in this weird time? And today we're focusing specifically on teenage boys. Although we talk about all sorts in this chat, it's by all means not just for people that are raising kids in any capacity. It's a chat about societal pressures. It's a chat about communication.

• 2:19Fearne Cotton?

  It's many, many things, but we are looking at also raising sons in a world where we can all see toxic masculinity and I'm sure many of us watched the Louis Theroux documentary Manosphere, which I found horrifying actually. I was really living under a rock. I watched that and was like, what? These people exist? This is crazy. It was an education in itself. And of course, Adolescence, which you'll know Stephen Graham worked so hard to create and also appear very much so in Adolescence. What a cultural shift that show was, just unbelievable.

• 3:01Fearne Cotton?

  So what emerged from the show Adolescence were loads of wider cultural conversations around masculinity and fatherhood and the pressures that young people face. So Stephen has now teamed up with psychology lecturer and researcher Ollie Klein to co-author Letters to Our Sons. It's a beautiful book. Oh, this book is so, so beautiful. It's a collection of letters from fathers to sons from all walks of life.

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• 5:40Fearne Cotton?

  All right, let's do it. Here's the show.

• 6:03Fearne Cotton?

  Stephen and Ollie, what a dream having you here. This is so special, this project.

• 6:10Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 6:11Fearne Cotton?

  It's so special.

• 6:12Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 6:14Fearne Cotton?

  Obviously your worlds have collided very beautifully and in quite an extraordinary way. This is one of those moments where you go, oh, fate.

• 6:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:24Fearne Cotton?

  Fate's a thing.

• 6:25Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 6:26Fearne Cotton?

  It's so cool.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 6:28Fearne Cotton?

  So, Ollie, obviously you've got a background in psychology and also specifically working with young men. So I'm imagining that seeing Adolescence was a bit of a moment for you anyway.

• 6:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, totally. Although we did the Letters to My Son before that, so he turned 13 a couple of years ago. And we'd been having discussions about what does it mean to be a good man? And I think all the stuff, this kind of toxic masculinity stuff was in the background of that conversation as well. And I remember getting some email from his school asking us to speak to our sons about it. Actually, that's probably what led to it. And we made this decision to ask some guys that we love and admire or thought were cool or thought were just kind of different, you know, if they'd write in my letter on what it means to be a good man and what they wished they'd have known when they were younger.

• 7:21Speaker 02

  And maybe this is my psychology training kind of thing, but we were really determined to try and get as wide a range of men as possible in that we didn't want to just ask our close friends and family because then you'd just be hearing from kind of knackered middle-aged gits. Do you know what I mean?

• 7:36Fearne Cotton?

  Let's be honest.

• 7:37Speaker 02

  Cynical old sods that, you know, don't even bother. But so we deliberately asked, you know, thought, we kind of had like a long list really of people from different ages and backgrounds and situations. And then we just went contacting them and, you know, we were just, you know, ex-colleagues that had retired and someone's dad and, you know, like all these sort of things. And obviously not everyone did it or replied or said they do it, didn't get around to it. But we ended up with 20 amazing letters and they just blew us away. And you know, when you don't realise, actually this is great. And they were funny, they were moving, they were surprising, some of them. And it was lovely. It was just lovely.

• 8:22Speaker 02

  And I started telling people about it and then one of my old colleagues said, actually, that would be a great book. So that's kind of where it all started. And in the meanwhile, Adolescence came out. And of course, just blew us away. And I remember not watching it straight away. Cause I was like, I've got to still my, you know, like, still myself for this.

• 8:44Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 8:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I knew it was gonna be a gut punch and, and needed to kind of ready myself. And then when I did, and obviously it was amazing. And so talked about that in the book proposal. And yeah, everything else then just fell into place. It was just perfect.

• 9:00Fearne Cotton?

  And you kind of weirdly knew someone that knew you, Stephen?

• 9:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, an old friend of mine was over from Australia and organised an afternoon out for her friends and family. And I got chatting to her sister and said, oh, what do you do? And she said, oh, I've recently changed careers. I've started working in a literary agency. And that's Stephen's friend Jude. So yeah, it's wonderful.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  Brings me beautifully to Jude.

• 9:25Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 9:26Speaker 01

  Who's been my mate for thirty three years.

• 9:28Fearne Cotton?

  Wow.

• 9:29Speaker 01

  She's like my little sister, um, and I adore her and she's a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful woman. She came through cancer a few years back, do you know what I mean? And it was a, it was a long, tricky road. Um, but she's just such an inspirational, beautiful woman. And she said to me, look, I've got this idea, this proposition. And I was like, okay, what are you on about? What is it? Cause I'll do anything for her, do you know what I mean? And she said, well, it's about this book thing. And I went, stop then. And she was like, what? And I went, just come to ours. I haven't seen you for ages. Just come to ours. And she was like, really? I was like, yeah, just come to ours and we'll have a cup of tea and we'll have a chat. And she was like, okay. And then she turned up and then, um, she stayed for a couple of days and we were in the garden chatting. And she told me about this wonderful thing that Ollie had done, which I thought was absolutely beautiful.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  And she said, you think there's a possibility where we could maybe turn it into a book? And I said, yeah, I think it could work. I said, but we'd have to bring it from a perspective of. And then I just went straight away. I went, maybe it'd be letters to our sons.

• 10:28Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 10:29Speaker 01

  Sorry, our sons, letters to our sons. It's me. And she, and she was like, oh, okay. And I went, that's the only way I think this could work for us to take it to a different place.

• 10:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  And not be the same thing, but maybe bring it into that world of fathers writing letters to their sons, literally. And that's kind of where we began the whole conversation then.

• 10:50Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm. It's a beautiful idea. And I know that both of you respectively feel deeply passionate about the communication between, well, it's not just fathers and sons. I suppose it's men in general. And that we do know that there is still something missing within that communication. There's like a barrier. What do you individually believe that is because of?

• 11:13Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, all I know is from like reading all the letters, that so many of the men were saying to their sons, like, talk, like just keep talking, just, just talk, talk about your feelings, talk about what's going on. Ask for help if you need it. And, and they were mostly coming from a place where they were saying, I'm not good at this. And I want you to be. And, you know, I really came away with that sense of how much men kind of squash down and cut off and swallow, swallow their thoughts and feelings. And don't say what they really need and don't ask for help and don't, you know, and,

• 11:55Speaker 02

  and, and there they were all kind of begging their sons like, please don't be like me. And it just kind of broke my heart, you know?

• 12:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:03Speaker 02

  I mean.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, completely. And I, I think that kind of, it's generational, I think in many ways, do you know what I mean? But suck it up.

• 12:11Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  Real men don't cry.

• 12:13Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  Don't, don't cry. Don't be a little girl. Don't be crying. So I think we have an obligation now to change that narrative completely. Do you know what I mean? Because if you look at it as well, I think, I mean, I don't, I, I don't know the statistics off the top of my head and everything. So I may quote this wrong, but I think it's the biggest killer of young men, suicide.

• 12:34Fearne Cotton?

  Totally.

• 12:35Speaker 01

  Um, as a society, I think men have always been in that position. And again, I think it is generational. Where, you know, you don't talk about things, you don't, you don't let things out. But we need to address that properly because communication is key. No problem is too big. Once we start to talk about it, it can be solved. Do you know what I mean? And that reaching out and asking for help is the first step within that. And to me, look, it's only my perspective, but it is my own opinion. And I feel the biggest masculine quality of a man is his vulnerability. And I think that's important. Do you know what I mean? And it's, it's important for us to talk, not just to our sons, but to our daughters, do you know what I mean? To our wives and, you know, we no longer have to carry these big burdens on our own.

• 13:19Fearne Cotton?

  No, I think we're, we're aware of what these societal pressures are now, you know? For women, it will be different. There's all the expectations on us to sort of be forever nurturing and martyrlike and look a certain way, all of that stuff. But then for men, it's been be tough, be strong, don't show weaknesses, keep it all in. And, and we know that these archetypes exist, but I think it's probably only in the last maybe ten, twenty years, we're starting to really explore what that impact looks like for men and women. And I think for men, certainly we've sadly seen like the, the awful side of that. Whether it is suicide statistics or it's toxic masculinity.

• 14:01Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 14:01Fearne Cotton?

  And we're seeing that obviously elevated because of social media and how we, we've now got access to so many different people's opinions and how they think about the world, which is something obviously you've deeply explored with adolescents and the impact and influence that has on very young minds that are still growing. I wonder, do you think toxic masculinity, although we, we have an awareness of it, is actually at its worst, at its peak in terms of the impact it's having on young men and, and what they're doing with their lives?

• 14:35Speaker 01

  I, I think you've kind of hit on it on the head massively, but it's that the vulnerability element to young people being influenced by certain people. And I, and I think that's completely changed through the social media, you know? Look, as a kid growing up, I had, I had my cousins, I had my uncles, I had my pops. Pops came into my life when I was ten, so I had pops, do you know what I mean? And, and I had my immediate kind of men around me who were my role models. Not always brilliant, not always fantastic, but you know, did their best. And, and you kind of guided your way through life in that, in that way. But today, they're swamped with so many people who tell you certain things to do and tell you how to behave

• 15:18Speaker 01

  and give you their own narrative. And what, you know, a lot of young people can be obsessed now with the success element of what these people are doing, do you know what I mean? And it's all about kind of having a flash card and doing this and leading your life this, and you can make all this money. And it's like, that's not really obtainable for your average, everyday person, you know what I mean?

• 15:37Fearne Cotton?

  Or guaranteed to make you feel good.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  But it doesn't, does it? You know what I mean? It's about what's inside first and it's about working on yourself. Do you know what I mean? I've done a lot of, a lot of work over my lifetime on myself in that respect. And it, and it's, you, you find a completely different perspective. And I say vulnerability is the strongest sense of masculinity, but that also means the possibility of being easily influenced.

• 16:01Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean? So it's, it's having those strong people around you, and that doesn't necessarily have to be your father. Do you know what I mean? It can be your friends, it can be your uncles, your aunties, your mother. It's, it's looking to those people who are being honest, being sincere, you know, and, and working hard for the things that, that we have in life. And ultimately for me as well, it's empathy.

• 16:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  Irrespective of your political views, ultimately you want to raise a young man who has empathy and love. And there's a lot of division in the world at the minute, you know what I mean? There's a lot of hatred out there from both sides as well. I'm not, I'm not saying who's right and who's wrong. I'm just saying there's a lot of it out there. So this was an opportunity to just go, hang on a minute, look, this is about love.

• 16:45Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 16:45Speaker 01

  This is about nurture. This is about nature. This is about being there for each other.

• 16:50Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm. When you look at your father figures, cause you had, you say your dad, your biological dad and your pops. What influence do you think they had on you? Cause you know, people will look to you as someone that is successful, that is a good egg, that has values and a moral compass in place. What do you, or which one of them do you think gave you that steer?

• 17:10Speaker 01

  My biggest was my mother.

• 17:13Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  And that's, you know, that's just me. That's, that's me telling it how it is. And it's strange and the serendipity of this, this book is released today on what would have been my mum's birthday. Do you know what I mean? So to me, my, my mother was my biggest influence, you know what I mean? My mother was my biggest supporter. And I'm very proud to come from a single parent background in that respect where my mum worked really hard, you know what I mean? My nana looked after me while my ma was at work and so did my aunties. I come from a strong group of matriarchs, you know what I mean? And they were the ones that instilled kind of values and traditions within me. And my, my biological father, I love him, do you know what I mean? We don't have a relationship. He's gone on to have other children and he's been there for them children.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  He was only seventeen when he had me, so he couldn't really be there for me, do you know what I mean? He'd had his own experiences in his own life and he, he didn't have, he didn't have a book, he didn't have a map of how to be a dad. And so we, you know, it didn't quite work for me, but thankfully. And I feel exceptionally blessed that my pops fell in love with my mum. And then he fell in love with me as well, do you know what I mean? And he himself didn't have a, a map or a, a book of how to do it. And he didn't know his father. So he was learning on the job as he was raising me and we kind of learned together, do you know what I mean? There's a beautiful, we shared a beautiful relationship. I adore the man.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  And he's a wonderful granddad to my kids. And I'm so blessed and I'm so honoured that, you know, my mum and dad had Nathan, my little brother, who, there's twenty years gap between me and our kid. You know, my mum had me when she was twenty and she had him when she was forty. In between that was our Kieran, who my mum had a still birth. And to watch my mum and pops navigate that as well, do you know what I mean? That was a big part of my life. But what it kind of does, what it did to me is, and what we just spoke about before we started this. You know, dysfunctional families.

• 19:08Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 19:09Speaker 01

  But when he worked, he worked, you know what I mean?

• 19:11Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 19:12Speaker 01

  So it's very complicated, my background of, of a father.

• 19:16Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  But pops is the man who has been there for me through thick and thin from that very moment. And, you know, I'm mixed race and so is he. So he taught me about my heritage and my history and to have pride in the people of, of who have worked to get to where they are and given me the life that I have today. So I knew all about Marcus Gavi, Toussaint Obadji, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, do you know what I mean? I know my sense of identity, the same way that I'm very proud of my Irish and my Scottish roots, you know what I mean? So it's.

• 19:47Speaker 01

  It's pops who has guided me and then it's me who's kind of me and him have learned as we've we've grown.

• 19:54Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean?

• 19:55Fearne Cotton?

  It's beautiful because I think when we've got sons and daughters, when we've got sons and we want them to have that guidance, it doesn't always have to be the dad. There are father figures that you can put in place. And I know, Ollie, that was very much what you were trying to get with these letters is lots of different influence for your son. So this was when he turned 13, you had this idea.

• 20:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:17Fearne Cotton?

  To to get all of these letters together and to pass them on to your to your son. What were your fears when he turned 13? Because as well as this being a lovely idea, I'm sure some of it was driven by, oh, fucking hell, this he is a teenager. He's going off into the wild west. I'm terrified. My son's 13 and I definitely.

• 20:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 20:36Fearne Cotton?

  If I'm honest, I'm probably more, I'm burying my head in the sand a bit. I'm like, oh, when he's 14, I'll really worry about it.

• 20:41Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 20:42Fearne Cotton?

  But I but I'm there, you know, you don't know what they're looking at on their phones.

• 20:45Speaker 02

  Exactly right.

• 20:46Fearne Cotton?

  Govern a certain amount of it without being like helicopter parent. It's really difficult to know.

• 20:52Speaker 02

  It's really difficult. And I mean, I don't want to pretend I have sustained got it right at all. And I think my son would agree that I have not sustained got it right at all. But um.

• 21:03Speaker 01

  We never do.

• 21:04Fearne Cotton?

  We don't, we're all winging it.

• 21:05Speaker 02

  Oh, my God. One of my, one of my favourite quotes from one of the letters actually is this dad who talks about having had a great childhood. And I mean, that already got my attention. It's like, oh, okay. He had a great childhood and he put some of that down to the fact that he said his parents gave him love and leeway in equal measure.

• 21:23Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 21:24Speaker 02

  And I just thought, oh, my God, that's it. You know, like that thing about knowing when to care for them.

• 21:30Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 21:31Speaker 02

  And when to let them make their own mistakes and, you know, like grow and and be free and and when to step in and when to step back. I mean, that's like the hardest thing.

• 21:40Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, it's so hard.

• 21:41Speaker 02

  And it's so nice to know that at least someone got it right, you know? So there's like hope that we might do as well.

• 21:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 21:47Speaker 02

  But it is, you know, it's a, it is a massive thing. And I think one of the things that really surprised me about the letters that came in for the book was that, if I'm honest, I was, I was a little bit worried that a load of the letters would be kind of long lists of don't do this and don't do that. You know, because we're so used to talking about boys as like a problem to be fixed.

• 22:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 22:08Speaker 02

  You know, they all need reining in. We've got to stop them doing this. We've got to stop them doing that, you know, like there's something wrong with them. And actually, it's the total opposite. The letters were so incredibly loving and encouraging and positive. It just blew me away. I really, it's just so lovely to see that actually these are positive, encouraging messages to give to boys rather than the usual kind of negative messages that we hear about boys. And I think that's what's so special about this book.

• 22:37Fearne Cotton?

  Well, what you've done is with a sort of total stroke of genius, you've given men permission to have this chat.

• 22:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:44Fearne Cotton?

  Because like you say in the book, I can't remember which one of you put this in in one of your pieces, but this is the sort of thing we say for like weddings, you know? These are the moments where we go, oh, now I can say.

• 22:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:55Fearne Cotton?

  The bit about my son.

• 22:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:58Fearne Cotton?

  Why are we waiting for that? Why are we not doing this at any given opportunity? And I think especially for men, in a cliched way, it is harder to speak your feelings, to say, I love you, I'm sorry, or can I impart this advice to you? And you've just given everyone permission. I actually, after reading this, and I, and I read it crying, laughing, I had every emotion possible reading these beautiful letters. But I thought, I'm not a dad, obviously, but I thought I'm going to write my 13 year old a letter.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  It inspired you to do that.

• 23:28Fearne Cotton?

  I did it and I sat and I did it. And I was surprised at what came out. I didn't know what.

• 23:33Speaker 02

  Love it.

• 23:33Fearne Cotton?

  Was going to come out and I felt quite, you know, I felt well deeply emotional in moments of it.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  And that's the thing.

• 23:39Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  That's the thing. Because with our kid, with our Nathan, and I'm with my, my bestie mate Leon, they were taking ages to write the letter. And I think I must have phoned him and I said, look, lads, you've got three days to get this letter sorted. Do you know what I mean? I want it in the book, just want to be in the book. You've got three days. And they were like, oh, okay. And so they said, when they sat down, when they actually went, okay, let's do it, it just came to them. Do you know what I mean? And it just flooded out.

• 24:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  And if you think about it, to sit down and really be in that mindful state of thinking solely about that individual.

• 24:15Speaker 02

  So rare these days.

• 24:15Speaker 01

  It's a meditat of practice, really, you know what I mean?

• 24:18Fearne Cotton?

  It is.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  To sit and think and feel the emotions and have the opportunity, some, some of us might be able to talk face to face, but to have that opportunity to write down your feelings, just solely thinking of that person, it just flows out. And then the two of them wrote beautiful letters and their fears of beginning to put that pen down were huge.

• 24:40Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, because you're scared to feel it all. You're like, this is going to be overwhelming. Like, that's what I felt. I was a bit nervous, like, what the fuck is going to come up? You know, what is, what's going to come out of me?

• 24:49Speaker 01

  And it's not going to be perfect. There's no such thing as perfection.

• 24:52Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  Perfection can never be obtained.

• 24:55Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean? So it's that, it's the process of actually sitting down, taking that first step and going, okay, let's just see what comes out.

• 25:03Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 25:04Speaker 02

  But also, I suppose, like, what's really lovely, I mean, I think you've said, letter writing is a softer way of saying difficult things. And, and I really like that. I, I just think that's absolutely perfect. But it's also a softer way of receiving difficult things, you know, like, because again, with my son, God love him, if I try and say important things to him.

• 25:27Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, yeah.

• 25:27Speaker 02

  Do you know what I mean? The last time I tried, I actually ended up shouting at him.

• 25:31Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 25:31Speaker 02

  Because he wasn't paying attention. And it's like, hello? You know, like, I've got this major thing. I was like, it's really important. And so we actually ended up having a row and it's like, piss off then, you know, like. So actually, there's something really lovely about the fact that they'll have this thing. And even if they're not receptive to it at the time, they can keep it and they can come back to it another time. And maybe even look at it when you're not looking.

• 25:55Fearne Cotton?

  Well, exactly. Well, he's not read the letter yet, but I said, look, it's in my notepad. And my notepad's always on the kitchen counter. I was like, whenever you want to go look at it. He went, oh, is it going to be really emotional and cringe? And I was like, we're going to move past that. It's going to be okay.

• 26:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:10Fearne Cotton?

  And just went like, I'm not forcing you. If you don't want to read it, you don't have to. But it's, it's there down the line. But I think it, it's, you know, we, we were brought up with a different generation of parenting, which probably wasn't anywhere near as communicative as what we're aiming for. And I think, again, we're not perfect parents, we're learning on the job as well. But I think we're definitely more aware that, you know, they were raised by like post-war kids or war kids. So they're dealing with all these other emotions and and feelings. And it was, you know, like, we just don't talk, I think, that generation.

• 26:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:43Fearne Cotton?

  I'm definitely trying to have more chats when we're like eating dinner or we're in the car on the way to school and.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  That's always a good one.

• 26:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, not looking at them.

• 26:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's always a good one.

• 26:53Fearne Cotton?

  Or walking, like you're just looking ahead.

• 26:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:55Fearne Cotton?

  But it is there, I think even though, you know, I'm a, a female, there is still an awkwardness of, we're not just talking about, oh, my God, we've got to get you to football and we've got all the logistics of like having a.

• 27:06Speaker 01

  Take time.

• 27:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. To take the time to have a conversation.

• 27:10Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:11Speaker 01

  Which sounds ridiculous.

• 27:12Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  But where's that time? Where's that opportunity?

• 27:16Fearne Cotton?

  We don't leave time for it.

• 27:17Speaker 01

  We don't.

• 27:18Speaker 02

  We don't leave time for it. And it's the same with that, like what you were saying about with the letter, you're taking time to write it. So many of the things we write now, we chuck off text messages and emails, like we barely, I barely bother to read them through. How many times do you send a thing and realise like, actually, you've got something completely wrong because you just chucked it off? There's no thought at all. So there is something really magical about it forcing you to slow down and think, which is just so rare.

• 27:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:46Speaker 02

  So rare.

• 27:51Speaker 03

  mod.com is changing the way people battle excessive fatigue. Ever hit a wall in the middle of the day and a third coffee just doesn't do it anymore? Here's what's actually happening. Coffee only briefly blocks adenosine, the chemical that tires you out. When it stops working, your system is flooded and you crash. Modafinil is a prescription treatment that works in a completely different way. Modafinil works by stimulating multiple receptors in the brain associated with wakefulness, including dopamine, serotonin, norepinephrine, histamine, glutamate and orexin. It's a more complete solution that gives you 10 to 12 hours of steady focus and energy. To learn more, go to mod.com.

• 28:36Speaker 03

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• 28:50Speaker 04

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• 29:21Speaker 06

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• 29:51Speaker 07

  Help I Sexed My Boss is the podcast where manners meets mayhem. I'm William Hanson.

• 29:56Speaker 06

  I'm Jordan North.

• 29:56Speaker 07

  And together we take on the hilarious challenges of modern life.

• 30:00Speaker 06

  William's the arbiter of etiquette.

• 30:02Speaker 07

  And Jordan's the chaotic yin to my perfectly polished yang.

• 30:06Speaker 06

  So if you want laugh out loud stories and brutally honest moments, then you'll love Help I Sexed My Boss.

• 30:12Speaker 07

  Watch and listen every Tuesday and Friday.

• 30:14Speaker 06

  On YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.

• 30:16Speaker 07

  Just search Sexed.

• 30:18Speaker 06

  Be warned, it's a bit rude.

• 30:24Fearne Cotton?

  What was the most valuable bit of advice that was offered up in a letter to your actual son out of the people you chose?

• 30:30Speaker 02

  So remember, they were all writing to a 13 year old. So they were talking a lot more about things like friendships rather than say relationships. Do you know what I mean? There was nobody talking about when you fall in love and you know, like it was all about choose your mates wisely and don't worry about being cool, just like follow your interests. Lots of stuff about be kind.

• 30:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 30:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, just, you know, like I say, these were letters to a 13 year old. So it was a, it was a different thing. What's, what's really lovely about the book is that some of these are dads with bright, shiny, brand new kids, you know?

• 31:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Oh, I love that letter.

• 31:09Speaker 01

  It's beautiful.

• 31:10Speaker 02

  And then the final chapter with the people with the grown up kids that have left home, I mean, some of those letters.

• 31:15Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, they're very moving.

• 31:17Speaker 02

  Absolutely really moved me. And of course, some of those sons have died and you know, like, yeah.

• 31:23Fearne Cotton?

  And also the prison letters I found just heartbreaking.

• 31:27Speaker 01

  Beautiful.

• 31:28Fearne Cotton?

  Beautiful. And, and it was, you know, you've got letters going both way. You've got sons in prison and you've also got dads in prison.

• 31:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 31:36Fearne Cotton?

  And both were equally gut punches at times. You know, I found them just devastating to me.

• 31:42Speaker 01

  And that was down to the great team behind it, do you know what I mean?

• 31:45Speaker 02

  They were amazing.

• 31:46Speaker 01

  We may be the, the names on the boot, but this is an absolute collective of people that have been involved from the very beginning. You know, Jude, Katie from Bloomsbury and all of the team, they were phenomenal and we reached out right across the land, didn't we?

• 31:59Speaker 02

  They really got it. They really like understood the importance of having as wide a range of dads as possible. And, you know, they were going into prisons and libraries and community organisations, football grounds.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  Community centres don't exist anymore.

• 32:13Speaker 02

  No, but community organisations.

• 32:14Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean? But community organisations, community centres should come back.

• 32:17Fearne Cotton?

  I agree.

• 32:18Speaker 01

  Because I think just being a kid who grew up in the commo, basically, you know, we had the centre 63, which was phenomenal and we had the boys' club. So you, you know, we played football, you had discos, you got to meet people, you got, you got to be, you got to be a, a present part of your community.

• 32:35Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, we had Ryslip Youth Club, it was essential.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  Exactly, no, and it was, wasn't it?

• 32:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  Because you felt a part, you had ownership of it.

• 32:41Fearne Cotton?

  It was fun.

• 32:42Speaker 01

  And it was brilliant.

• 32:43Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 32:44Speaker 01

  You had your 10p for the spaces and all that, you know what I mean? But as well, look, and going back to that point, why I do think they're integral and why I do feel it's something that we should really bring back in this country. Because as well, as we're saying, you don't have to be a family member to be that role model or be that person that you can seek advice from. And there was a lot of people in, you know, where I grew up and stuff who maybe didn't have that relationship with their parents, but the youth workers.

• 33:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 33:07Speaker 01

  You could talk to a youth worker and they would give great advice because they always had your best interests at heart.

• 33:12Fearne Cotton?

  Exactly.

• 33:13Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean?

• 33:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  And they were like another, they were older than us, but they, they had that wisdom, but they also understood on our level.

• 33:20Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, we've lost the physical space for kids to get together.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  A safe space.

• 33:25Fearne Cotton?

  A safe space. And I think that is, and also this is married not only with losing that space, but with the fact that the online world is just only getting bigger and sort of scarier. And I may be sound doom and gloom and maybe old saying that, but it does scare me for the, for the teenagers especially, you know, like I said earlier, with my 13 year old, all I ever say to him is, have you seen anything disturbing? And if so, please come to me.

• 33:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:54Fearne Cotton?

  Because I, you can't govern what they're watching the whole time. It's, it's impossible to do it. And I think we're still as parents trying to work out what, what is the right way to do it.

• 34:03Speaker 02

  How to do it because we don't know either and that's the trouble. I just want to really briefly go back to, because one of the, one of the letters that talked about the issues that, that we've just been discussing around community centres and stuff is, is Goldie's letter to her son in prison, which if anyone out there hasn't yet read it.

• 34:21Fearne Cotton?

  It's an amazing letter.

• 34:22Speaker 01

  It's incredible, isn't it?

• 34:24Speaker 02

  It's incredible. And he talks about a lot of things that I feel quite emotional. He talks about a lot of things, but one of them is precisely this stuff that we, we've shut down all the community centres and youth clubs and music projects and all those spaces that were so important. And he's got this amazing line, because of course he's incredible and he says something like, you know, they, with all the funding cuts, they, they ripped the heart out of communities and then blamed them for bleeding. And I just think that's exactly, we need spaces where our young people can go to, to connect, to belong, you know, in the community, to learn things from different people and to negotiate with each other and all the rest of it, you know?

• 35:07Speaker 01

  Face to face, see each other, not, not on, you know, not in some, I don't even know what they are, I can't even explain them to be on my, my capacity to understand what goes on in them things. I have no idea. But that face to face interaction with different people.

• 35:21Speaker 02

  There's no substitution.

• 35:22Speaker 01

  And we're very quick to chastise the youth, do you know what I mean? As a society, we are very quick to chastise the youth, but we're giving them no opportunities.

• 35:29Speaker 02

  No.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  We're giving them no place to learn skills about life, do you know what I mean? And dreams and hopes and ambitions, do you know what I mean? I remember, remember the farm?

• 35:38Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 35:39Speaker 01

  The band, the farm, the farm came to play, do you know what I mean? They must have, they must have done, they must have been in about their fourth or fifth gig and we were like, what are you, what's going on here today? And we've got a band coming in and we're like, what, what, so what? And then he's come and he's set the drums, set the, and we were kind of like playing 40 out the back and right, the band's going to start now, you're coming. And we, we all stood there, there was about 25 of us, just in awe.

• 36:03Fearne Cotton?

  Wow.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  Catching these fellas. And one of them might have inspired one of us to pick up a guitar, do you know what I mean?

• 36:10Fearne Cotton?

  Well, you still remember it, which means it's had an impact.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  Vivently, yeah.

• 36:12Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 36:13Speaker 01

  And how many John Lenins have sat in bedrooms as well? That's what I always think. But these were places where you could go and you could feel a part of that community. And you learn a lot of things from there, you know? And this is something I remember, because as well, it was places where you could talk about stuff that you mightn't talk about at home.

• 36:29Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 36:30Speaker 01

  And we were talking about kind of sex and stuff like that, do you know what I mean? And I remember one of the fellas went, you know, the three Cs? And we were like, what? He was like, what, what do you mean? He went, well, this is the way to look at it. And it was an older man, do you know what I mean? In his mid twenties and it stuck, it registered in my head and it was like consent, compassion, condom.

• 36:50Fearne Cotton?

  Wow.

• 36:51Speaker 01

  Very simple.

• 36:52Speaker 02

  I really didn't know where that was going to go at all.

• 36:54Fearne Cotton?

  No, I was thinking, should I know the three Cs?

• 36:56Speaker 02

  I know.

• 36:57Speaker 01

  No, but when you, but when you, but when you think about it, you don't have to have a big massive conversation about it.

• 37:02Speaker 02

  Love it.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  But if, you know, and you understand the process of that consent, absolutely without fail, do you know what I mean? It's, it's made, this is, this is an experience you share together. And even at that age of like 15, do you know what I mean? You're like kind of, all right. And, and then maybe none of us, maybe only three of us knew what consent meant, but then we looked it up and I remember, you know, we're looking up in the dictionary because we were from, you know, it's like, oh, all right, okay, so you understand that. Compassion.

• 37:29Speaker 02

  That's massive.

• 37:30Speaker 01

  It's huge.

• 37:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:32Speaker 01

  And obviously, you know, a condom for safety.

• 37:35Speaker 02

  That's incredible.

• 37:36Speaker 01

  So it's so simply put, but I think it says so much about what that is. And you don't have to have deep, deep, deep, deep, deep conversations about it, but those three Cs, you know, it's integral.

• 37:47Speaker 02

  But also that's so much better coming from like.

• 37:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yes, not your dad.

• 37:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, not your dad, yeah.

• 37:53Fearne Cotton?

  Without a doubt. It cuts out all the awkwardness, you just go, yeah, got it. Thank you very much.

• 37:57Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And you take it away and it registers in your mind, do you know what I mean?

• 38:01Fearne Cotton?

  Like you say, you know, we blame the youth for a lot without giving them the support, but I think we also do the same to men, sometimes rightly so, but other times we are just like, oh my God, toxic masculinity, men are lost, what do we do? And, and without going, right, we, the society, like the culture needs to change. Society needs to shift for young men to feel like they can communicate, they can show emotion, they can be completely themselves without having to toughen up, man up all the stuff that men have been thrown for years and years. I think adolescence has had a huge ripple effect, more than you could have ever dreamed. It's like, that is a cultural shift. Clearly loads more needs to be done systemically in terms of these things to hold up, but it's

• 38:45Fearne Cotton?

  had a ginormous impact. What do you think needs to be done for that to have lasting appeal? Well, I'm not putting the whole emphasis on adolescence, but in terms of the, the cultural shift that we're, we're feeling.

• 38:58Speaker 01

  Communication.

• 38:59Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 39:00Speaker 01

  I think that is the key, do you know what I mean? Look, as artists, we, we made something that we put out there. We, we weren't trying to change anything. We weren't trying to do anything specific. We just wanted to raise awareness and bring attention to this thing that was happening at the time and to have a proper look at it. And ultimately it was about opening those bedroom doors. And creating the beginnings of a dialogue between our sons and our daughters and and the youth in general, do you know what I mean? And we had no idea what was gonna happen with it. We just didn't. We knew we were part of something special because of the process that we were doing. And and the joy that we felt when we went on set, it's the most exhilarating experience. It's the most zen I've ever been as an actor.

• 39:44Fearne Cotton?

  Because you're in one take.

• 39:45Speaker 01

  Because you're in one take. So you're marrying both of those mediums, you know what I mean?

• 39:49Fearne Cotton?

  We had Ashley on here and he just said he would fall apart, shit himself every.

• 39:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I remember, I was, I remember, Ash was like, I went into his side and he's like, and I was like, it's gonna be alright, don't worry. And he's like, and he's looking at his lines and I'm like, Ash, once we're, once we're going, we're going. That's it. Once the train starts, we'll be sweet.

• 40:07Fearne Cotton?

  It was magic.

• 40:08Speaker 02

  Love it.

• 40:08Speaker 01

  And it was, you know, there's a lot of rehearsal process that goes into that. You know, the camera work is phenomenal and the whole crew. We were a well-oiled machine.

• 40:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 40:17Speaker 01

  And then it allows you to be free and play. But we always came from it from the perspective of to be true to what we were saying. Treat it with love, treat it with care, and you know, treat it with the dignity that it deserved, the story that we were telling. And we had no idea what would happen. And you know yourself, look, as an artist, you put something out there and you go, okay, that's it.

• 40:36Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  And then whatever people choose to take from it, that's their, that's their prerogative. And we shouldn't say, we want you to do this or we, because it was never about that. It was just a simple conversation at the very beginning, myself and Hannah and Jack at one point had a really lovely conversation. It was about, so this isn't a who done it, this is a why did he do it?

• 40:57Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 40:57Speaker 01

  And then it's open to you to put your own thoughts and your own feelings and take away from it what you choose, you know what I mean? We never knew it'd catch the zeitgeist the way it did.

• 41:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, well, it was needed, I think. There was a conversation that none of us were really having and a lot of fear around that conversation, which you again, like, gave everyone permission, like, let's talk about this stuff, let's put this out in the open.

• 41:19Speaker 01

  Well, fair enough. If I'm really honest, I just remember when I read an article and I read that, you know, a young girl had been stabbed to death in Liverpool. Um, and there was three boys that were arrested and she was thirteen or fourteen and they were like thirteen, fourteen as well. And a similar age and I just thought, wow, I'm going, what, what's, what's going on? I think it was just before Christmas in the city centre. I just thought, oh, it hit my heart, do you know what I mean? If I'm honest. I just thought, have we got to this point where a young lad thinks that this is okay? Or an even possibility? Where does that come from? So it was about looking at it from that perspective, do you know what I mean?

• 41:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah. Well, you did it, like, the execution of it was absolutely exceptional.

• 42:04Speaker 01

  And again, that was a team game, you know, that was a we team. There's no, there's no I in these things, the same as with the book. It's not, it's not about one individual, it's a collective.

• 42:13Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, from your deep dive into that topic, and also with your background, Ollie, do you think young men are lost? There are a couple of dads, and I wrote down a couple of the references. There's one dad who says, he looks at social media and the news and it suggests almost exclusively that young men are lost, frightening and dangerous.

• 42:34Speaker 02

  Oof. I mean, I think there's definitely stuff in the official statistics that is worrying, you know. Stephen's already talked about the suicide rates, there is stuff around mental health and addiction. And the number of young guys who like nothing to do all day, you know, that don't have jobs, that aren't in training or college or whatever. So there's definitely some worrying stuff. And I think lots of people have got a sense of, you know, that a lot of young men are struggling. They're struggling in all sorts of different ways and in need of guidance. And I think, you know, when we have to try and understand the appeal of some of this, some of these influences, that maybe some of that appeal is because actually they've got

• 43:15Speaker 02

  a clear message and they've got like a clear thing to aim for. They could paint a very vivid picture of the cars and the whatever it is and the, you know, here's something to aim for and here's how you're gonna get it. It's all very clear. And we don't have a clear message for boys at all. I think, I think maybe we've been better at having a clear, positive message for girls around empowerment, you know?

• 43:37Speaker 01

  Rightly so.

• 43:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, and rightly so. And I mean, I think that's the other thing, there shouldn't be either or, you know.

• 43:41Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, it can be and, of course.

• 43:43Speaker 02

  And exactly. I hate this idea of like, as if boys and girls are on some sort of giant seesaw and if one goes up, the other has to go down. You know, like, it's nonsense. It's nonsense. But, but yeah, maybe we've, we've been quite good at having a clear, positive message for girls. But we just don't have one for boys, I don't think, you know? My, my partner works in a secondary school and he talks about, you know, corridors with brilliant pictures of amazing women on them and it's like, aspire to do this. And then there isn't any kind of equivalent for boys, you know? And so I think we need to kind of figure that out. And it would be just incredible if the book could be part of starting that conversation. Yeah. Yeah.

• 44:21Fearne Cotton?

  I think also just like the simple act of having a dad write to his son.

• 44:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:27Fearne Cotton?

  That is so powerful. Like, that is such a powerful thing in itself to say all the things that, you know, you war crime with all of this stuff in your head as a parent.

• 44:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:36Fearne Cotton?

  Without anywhere to put it. And it's not offloading onto your kid. I think it's the, it's the, the wisdom you wanna impart, the lessons that you've learned, the love that you have for them that you might not be expressing that often. I think, you know, like, I love my dad to bits, but he's not good at saying, I love you. And it's that, it's a generational thing. It's just, it's not an easy thing to utter those words. And I feel it and I know he does, but it's not, you know, I say it about a hundred times. I say it to everyone, person who's giving me a coffee, love ya, like anyone. Like, I'm constantly expressing it. But I think there is, there is a block there.

• 45:13Speaker 03

  Mod.com is changing the way people battle excessive fatigue. Ever hit a wall in the middle of the day and a third coffee just doesn't do it anymore? Here's what's actually happening. Coffee only briefly blocks adenosine, the chemical that tires you out. When it stops working, your system is flooded and you crash. Medafinil is a prescription treatment that works in a completely different way. Medafinil works by stimulating multiple receptors in the brain associated with wakefulness, including dopamine, serotonin, norepinephrine, histamine, glutamate and orexin. It's a more complete solution that gives you ten to twelve hours of steady focus and energy.

• 45:56Speaker 03

  To learn more, go to mod.com. Fill out your intake form, meet with a licensed provider, and if approved, Mod Alert ships straight to your door. Go to mod.com to get started. That's M O D dot com.

• 46:13Speaker 06

  Network freedom and flexibility. That's what you want in a healthcare plan. With a Humana Medicare Advantage PPO plan, you can see any doctor in the country who accepts Medicare, including specialists. No referrals, no kidding. Learn more at gethumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to build Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organisation with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 46:43Speaker 07

  Help I sexted my boss is the podcast where manners meets mayhem. I'm William Hanson. I'm Jordan North. And together we take on the hilarious challenges of modern life.

• 46:52Speaker 06

  William's the arbiter of etiquette.

• 46:54Speaker 07

  And Jordan's the chaotic yin to my perfectly polished yang.

• 46:58Speaker 06

  So if you want laugh out loud stories and brutally honest moments, then you'll love Help I Sexted My Boss.

• 47:04Speaker 07

  Watch and listen every Tuesday and Friday.

• 47:06Speaker 06

  On YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.

• 47:08Speaker 07

  Just search Sexted.

• 47:10Speaker 06

  Be warned, it's a bit rude.

• 47:16Fearne Cotton?

  When we look at the advice part of it, and there is some, some beautiful segments of advice imparted in this book. When you were growing up, Stephen, what would you have needed to hear back then? When, say, you were thirteen, you're on the cusp of adolescence yourself and you've got your whole life ahead of you, what would you have loved to have heard?

• 47:37Speaker 01

  In all honesty, I think I got everything that I needed to hear, do you know what I mean? I do.

• 47:44Speaker 01

  And that's why my relationship is very different. My relationship with pops was very different. You know, it, it took him a while and he was finding his feet within the context of our relationship. And, you know, there was moments where I pushed back.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  But, but my relationship with him and his guidance was, was really beautiful, do you know what I mean? And my mum. My mum, I, you know, me and my, it was times it was just when I was very young, it was me and my mum taking on the world to an extent, you know what I mean? And so. I was always encouraged and my mum, the best bit of advice my mum ever gave me was that you're never above anyone and you're never beneath anyone. We are all equal. My mum was a, you know, my mum was a social worker. Um. She started off as a nursery nurse and, and she worked her way up the ranks. Um. And at the end of it, she, you know, she had papers published and stuff like that. So my mum was, yeah, my mum was a little.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  She, she was wonderful. She was a powerhouse. Um. But I had that relationship with mum. And it was, you know, when I suffered my own kind of stuff as well, I, I felt there was that kind of sense in me of feeling like I'd let them down in a way. Um. And I think I kind of took a lot on my own and feeling like I would let the people around me down. And I just wish. Well, I don't wish because I don't, I don't regret anything that's happened in my life. Do you know what I mean? And then, cause if it hadn't, I wouldn't be, I wouldn't be sat across. From you two, here with you two wonderful people now talking about this beautiful thing. So I'm grateful for everything that's happened, you know what I mean? The ups and the downs. The hardship, the pain, the ecstasy and the happiness that I've, that I've managed to walk on this path.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  But my, my pops gives great advice. He does and he, you know, and he still.

• 49:29Fearne Cotton?

  And great hugs.

• 49:30Speaker 01

  And great hugs. But I was the, I was the original.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  Um. But he does, you know, and, and my ma used to say, I crack a rib the way I squeeze it, you know what I mean? Cause if I love you, I want you to know I love you. Cause I mean it. Um. But in the sense of that kind of positive role models as well. Me and Alfie trained together, do you know what I mean? I, I think there's really excellent qualities to masculinity as well. Do you know what I mean? When we harness them in the right way.

• 49:57Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 49:57Speaker 01

  And that kind of, I mean, I'll open the door for Hannah in a car. I'll, if I'm with Izzy, do you know what I mean? Then I open the door. I'm a gentleman. I was, I was trained. I was raised that way. The one thing that pisses me off is when you hold the door for someone and they just walk right past you. Doesn't that get on to your skin?

• 50:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's the worst.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  And I'll catch myself going.

• 50:16Fearne Cotton?

  Everything.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 50:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you. Yeah, thank you. That's all right. Yeah, I'll just stand here, shall I? You know, it's that. But for me as well, going back, you know, and I'm bringing it back to myself, cause that's my only place of reference. As a kid, you know, we, we lived in a flat and I used to clean my own room. Do you know what I mean? I'd Uber up and. I'm really great at washing toilets, cause I used to, that was my job, do the bathroom. But we, we put music on on a Sunday and we clean the house together. There's a group, the three of us, do you know what I mean? So Alfie's seen there and Grace has seen there and me and Hannah have there. She might say, I need to do a bit more than that. And she's probably right, do you know what I mean? But it's, but it's that being a team, you're a part of a team and it's not about, well, will you do that and I'll do this. It's, it's not that. It's, you know.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  Women, thankfully, are now in a place where they work a lot more than what they're used to. You know, but we say it's a general relation thing, generational thing, the likes of my auntie Vera who started off in working and. Me uncle Eddie would go to work and he'd have to travel to Liverpool and he'd do a full week's work in Liverpool, do you know what I mean? And she'd be there taking care of the house and stuff, but things have changed. So it's a much more of a partnership now. And I think we need to empower our young men to take responsibility for those things as well. Do you know what I mean? And see that it is a partnership, that you are in this together.

• 51:38Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 51:38Speaker 01

  And we are a part of a team. And maybe that's a possible way in to, for that understanding of the camaraderie of us. We're all in this together.

• 51:47Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 51:47Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean? We're all brand new at this. We're all just learning.

• 51:50Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, my god.

• 51:50Speaker 01

  The same pace as each other.

• 51:52Fearne Cotton?

  We're all giving it our best shot. I definitely feel passionate about that with my thirteen year old, that. If we wanna see women go out and thrive at work, have careers, dare I say, like I'm the first woman in my lineage that's had a career. You know, my mum had about four jobs and she hated all of them and my nan's didn't work. I feel lucky, but I also feel the pressure of, oh, but I've still got to be on the class what's up and the school gates and you've still got to show up as this. Fully formed mother. So we need to raise our boys to go, if we want women to do that and to be brilliant, it has to be a team, like you're saying.

• 52:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:27Fearne Cotton?

  You wrote a letter to your son in the book. What did it, what felt important to get across in that letter?

• 52:34Speaker 01

  I tell my Alfie, I love him every day. My, my, my law call me a soppy twat, excuse my language, you know? I cry the drop of a hat, you know what I mean? And I adore our Alfie. I adore our Grace as well. I'm blessed that, you know. A lot of people will say I'm in a codependent relationship with Hannah, but that's okay.

• 52:51Fearne Cotton?

  But your wife is amazing.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  She is.

• 52:53Fearne Cotton?

  She's something else.

• 52:54Speaker 01

  I've landed on my feet there.

• 52:55Fearne Cotton?

  She is something else.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  She is. She's phenomenal.

• 52:58Fearne Cotton?

  She's unreal.

• 53:01Speaker 01

  Running that whole production company, just there in our little.

• 53:04Fearne Cotton?

  I'm in awe of your wife.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you.

• 53:06Fearne Cotton?

  I am.

• 53:06Speaker 01

  I am as well, if I'm honest.

• 53:08Fearne Cotton?

  I bet you are.

• 53:08Speaker 01

  I absolutely am. And she's wonderful, do you know what I mean? But it's a team game.

• 53:12Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 53:13Speaker 01

  And she's, I've said this before, you know, she sacrificed a lot for me to be able to pursue my career. She really did. She put. Her career on hold for that. And, and for that, I am eternally grateful. You know, she believed that it would happen at some point even. And that, that's the other thing, my friends and my family, you know, when I had my own doubts about this thing and I was gonna pack it in after this is England. I was gonna stop cause I couldn't get no work and I was gonna become a youth worker. Do you know what I mean? That's, that's what I was doing, cause I was helping out in our community centre, making films and stuff like that with. When we lived in Ibrox, making uh little videos and films, getting the kids to write their own scripts, acting them, do the costume, do the camera.

• 53:55Speaker 01

  And it was wonderful. And I did it for a bar four months and it was beautiful. It was really amazing and I loved it. And I was like, I might just do this now. And everyone was like, no, don't stop. Don't, don't stop. Don't give up. And thankfully I listened to them, but I was gonna go for an interview and then all of a sudden an audition popped up. So it was one of them sliding doors moments. And I went for the audition and thankfully I got it. But it's that support around you, do you know what I mean? You need that.

• 54:22Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 54:22Speaker 01

  You need that support.

• 54:23Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm. Hmm. What do we do? Again, this is mentioned in several of the letters. I kept jotting things down. There were different patterns that you could see, whether the, the son was a baby, a adolescent or a grown man. That when we go on social media, put on the news, we look out into the big wide world. A lot of the horror stories we see are catalyzed by a man. So whether it's burglaries, murders, rape, war. It's men and we, we know that statistically and it is quite terrifying sending young men out into a world like that. And really scary sending young women. I still feel like if I, I would not walk around the streets of London at night on my own.

• 55:07Fearne Cotton?

  And I'm not waiting for a woman to jump out at me. Do you know what I mean? It's, there is that fear in built in us as women. But my worry is with a thirteen year old boy, how am I sending a young boy out into the world knowing that? This, this is what we're used to. Like this is the, this is the system, but it doesn't have to be like that. How do you feel about that as a, a mother of a teenager?

• 55:28Speaker 02

  I don't think there's a parent that doesn't kind of worry about these things. And I think it is about kind of how we can bring our boys up. To be boys and all the different things that means, you know, while also just being decent human beings, you know, that's. That's all that it is at the end of the day, you know. What, one of the things that was really lovely about the book was that we had all these letters from like. Dads from all walks of life in all different situations with all different relationships with their sons, you know, good and bad, difficult and. Lovely and, you know, from, yeah, from all these different places. And yet basically all of them, everyone wants their kid to be just a decent human being.

• 56:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 56:10Speaker 02

  That's loving and loved and happy in whatever way they wanna be, but they're just basically a good guy. And, and that's such a fundamental kind of universal thing. And it's got to give you hope that if that's genuinely what we all want.

• 56:24Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 56:25Speaker 02

  You know, then it's sure easy to focus in on the bad news. But, you know, as the goddess Caitlin would tell us, the news is biased towards telling us the bad bits. There's actually. Everybody wants their kids to be a decent human being. And, and if that's the case, then surely, surely things are basically gonna be all right.

• 56:44Fearne Cotton?

  I think you're so right, cause like we were saying before we started this pod, we were talking about Caitlin Moran, we're both obsessed with her. And that we often, well, it's not just that we're choosing to focus on it. We are shoved the news daily that these awful things are happening.

• 56:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:59Fearne Cotton?

  But then there's absolute proof in these letters here. And from people that have had really difficult situations to navigate. But there is so much goodwill and hope for young men.

• 57:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:10Fearne Cotton?

  And that it's so important that we remain focused on that rather than all the bad shit happening.

• 57:15Speaker 02

  I, I think if we were to say like, what are the key themes that come out of the book, you know, one of them is definitely about love, like the amount of. The outpouring of love is incredible. And the other thing actually is hope.

• 57:28Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 57:28Speaker 02

  So there were lots of people, so there you go. There were lots of people talking about some, like you say, some really painful experiences. And also some big mistakes, like some big mistakes they've made with deep regrets, you know, are messed up. Loads of men are messed up, you know, or um lots of men talking about addictions, you know, addiction is such a huge problem, whether it's. Drugs, alcohol, screen, porn, work, you know, loads and loads of different types of addiction, gambling. Um. But time and time again, there were stories of the men that, that had come through, that had found a way through. Like one of my favourite letters, if you don't mind me say, one of my favourite letters, it's just the sweetest thing where this guy.

• 58:11Speaker 02

  Talks that he lost his own dad when he was twenty two to alcoholism. And following that, he kind of went off the rails a bit and got lost in alcohol himself. And he says he was actually trying to feel connected with his dad. He was copying his dad's behaviour as a way of feeling close to him. You know, heartbreaking stuff. And when he became a dad himself, he realised he's got to knock this on the head. And of course it's not easy, but he finally realised he'd cracked it one day when it was, it was like one morning and he'd pulled up his. Pyjama leg to scratch his knee and he looked over at his young son and he'd pulled up his pyjama leg and he was scratching his knee and he was like. I've done it. I've given him new things to copy, you know, like broken, exactly.

• 58:54Speaker 01

  Broke that spiritual melody.

• 58:55Speaker 02

  Broke that, exactly.

• 58:56Fearne Cotton?

  But that, that's what these letters, I think, have got the potential to do is break.

• 59:01Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 59:02Fearne Cotton?

  Family cycles.

• 59:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:04Fearne Cotton?

  And these family cycles can go on for generations, for like hundreds of years.

• 59:08Speaker 01

  Trauma.

• 59:08Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah. And this is the chance, I think, the first step obviously is the awareness. And then the next bit is communicating it and it's not gonna fix everything immediately, but without that, nothing will change.

• 59:19Speaker 01

  Awareness is wonderful and intent is beautiful. Without action, they are both fuck all.

• 59:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 59:24Speaker 02

  But I think, hopefully, this will help with awareness as well because I think there's something about reading other people's letters that makes you, it clicks. It's like, oh shit, okay, yeah, now, now I know what I need to say.

• 59:38Speaker 01

  That wonderful question you asked a bit ago about, you know, females feeling threatened and being scared. Have you ever seen, we watched it the other night, have you ever seen Colin from Accounts?

• 59:47Speaker 02

  Oh, I love that. I love that.

• 59:50Speaker 01

  Did you watch the last series?

• 59:51Fearne Cotton?

  I haven't watched the, no, not the new series.

• 59:52Speaker 01

  Okay, well, watch this new series and everything you've just asked in that question is delivered in the most amazing scene. It's one scene, it's one shot, the two of them sat opposite a table and it is phenomenal.

• 1:00:04Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I'm gonna watch it.

• 1:00:05Speaker 01

  It's phenomenal. It's phenomenal. And it makes you just go, because you're laughing. And then you go, wow, me and Anna just went and we took a minute and it was like, because I'd never looked at it properly from that perspective.

• 1:00:19Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:00:20Speaker 01

  But then I saw it, you know, you have your fears and your thoughts in it.

• 1:00:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  And I understand and I know it is, you know, I'm not blind. I know that that is what is out there. And I think personally, I've never tried to fill my grace with that fear. Do you know what I mean? Because, yeah, you're worried when she's out. Of course you are. Do you know what I mean? Because of everything you just said. But you never try to push it upon her or make her afraid.

• 1:00:45Fearne Cotton?

  No, no.

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  And I always made, you know, from a young age, now maybe people may say this is wrong, but from a young age, I've always wanted our grace to throw a great right hook, just in case, or, you know. I teach it, shins kicking the shins, kicking the balls.

• 1:01:00Fearne Cotton?

  It's brilliant.

• 1:01:02Speaker 01

  But it's fantastic and it's great for aggression, but it's also.

• 1:01:05Fearne Cotton?

  You want some self-defence.

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  Well, exactly. And the fact that we're having to have that conversation shows where we are as a society and shows what it is. But sure, you know, and things have to change, I get that. But I've always wanted her to be able to just at least do something.

• 1:01:18Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:19Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean? And there's this one scene in Colin from Accounts in that last series. And I promise you, when you watch that, when you watch that episode and you watch that scene, let me know what you thought, right?

• 1:01:29Fearne Cotton?

  I'm watching it tonight. I'm doing it.

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  It's unbelievable. And it deals with everything you've just said, the severity of what you've just said and the gravity of that. It deals with it in one scene.

• 1:01:39Fearne Cotton?

  Wow.

• 1:01:40Speaker 01

  It's amazing.

• 1:01:41Fearne Cotton?

  I'm, I'm on it.

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  But to go back to that, look, alls we're trying to do is, you know, and again, I'm not, I'm not, not, this is not any political thing. This is nothing in that respect. It's about fucking love.

• 1:01:54Fearne Cotton?

  It's about love.

• 1:01:55Speaker 01

  It's about love.

• 1:01:55Fearne Cotton?

  It's seeping out of the pages of this book, for crying out loud.

• 1:01:58Speaker 01

  And surely that's what we all have within our hearts, do you know what I mean?

• 1:02:01Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  Surely that's, that's the way to go.

• 1:02:04Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. It's the, it's the inability to tune into that, I think, that causes all of these male issues that are going on is, you know, men that feel unloved or men that feel like they can't access that part of themselves. That's, like you say, that's the missing link. And it is, it's so apparent in these letters and it's honestly one of the most powerful things I've read in a very long time. I, I've read it in one go. I was like, one more letter. It's just, it's so moving. And also just the fact that I instantly felt compelled to write a letter. I think so many people are gonna go for it.

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  So the objective has been completed.

• 1:02:37Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, you've nailed it.

• 1:02:38Speaker 01

  That's, that was it. Our overall super objective was to try and get people to read it, be inspired and write their own letters.

• 1:02:45Fearne Cotton?

  It's, it's a, it's a beautiful project. So congrats massively to both of you. Before we end, I'd love to ask you both two questions. One is music based and I have an idea of where you're gonna go with this one. We are making a Happy Place playlist, so we need a song that makes you feel bloody brilliant. What are we gonna go with?

• 1:03:07Speaker 02

  Well, the one, my current thing, and it has got the word sun in it, but the different spelling sun, is Morning Sun by Al Barrie. Do you know it?

• 1:03:18Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 1:03:19Speaker 02

  You're gonna, it's a gift. It's a gift. You're gonna love it. I was, I was playing it this morning. Morning Sun, it's a reggae song. It's the most amazing, uplifting, gorgeous thing.

• 1:03:30Fearne Cotton?

  Okay, that's what we need. Sunshine song. Lovely.

• 1:03:33Speaker 02

  It's definitely a sunshine song. Gorgeous.

• 1:03:35Fearne Cotton?

  What about you, Stephen?

• 1:03:36Speaker 01

  Mine's gonna be with the kids in the car when they were very young, but they know every single word. Express yourself.

• 1:03:43Fearne Cotton?

  That's such a great song.

• 1:03:44Speaker 02

  It's a great song.

• 1:03:45Fearne Cotton?

  So good. I just listened to you on Ramesh's podcast, so I was like, we're gonna get a hip hop classic here, guys. I know it.

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  Well, you were right, yeah.

• 1:03:53Fearne Cotton?

  I heard you rapping.

• 1:03:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I'll give you, I'll give you the hip hop classic.

• 1:03:56Fearne Cotton?

  It's so good. And lastly, where is your happy place?

• 1:04:01Speaker 02

  Ooh.

• 1:04:06Speaker 01

  There.

• 1:04:07Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  That's my happy place.

• 1:04:10Fearne Cotton?

  I like that. Are we just, it's like a place of mental peace?

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's there.

• 1:04:14Fearne Cotton?

  What's in your heart?

• 1:04:14Speaker 01

  It's on the, I was told it's on the, it's the, it's the gap between the breath.

• 1:04:20Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm. I like that.

• 1:04:22Speaker 02

  I like that.

• 1:04:24Fearne Cotton?

  We've never had one so deep, Stephen.

• 1:04:26Speaker 01

  Sorry.

• 1:04:27Speaker 02

  I know. I don't feel like I can follow that one. Yeah, literally, I, I live in Brighton, you know. I am one of those middle-aged women that does like, exactly. We do like.

• 1:04:37Speaker 01

  It's a lot of time, but it is there.

• 1:04:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. I love that. That's what we're all aiming for, is that, isn't it? The simplicity of that. Ollie, would you like to, even if it is a place?

• 1:04:47Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, yeah, no, I was genuinely gonna say like getting in the sea down in Brighton.

• 1:04:51Fearne Cotton?

  I love getting in the sea.

• 1:04:52Speaker 02

  Oh, all year round.

• 1:04:54Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 1:04:55Speaker 02

  It's a beautiful thing. Especially the winter, because it's all quiet, the sea's wild, it's freezing. You can feel alive, you feel brave, you feel like, you feel everything, you feel animal, you feel spiritual. You feel like you don't feel your toes.

• 1:05:12Fearne Cotton?

  Can't for hours.

• 1:05:13Speaker 02

  And, um, yeah.

• 1:05:15Fearne Cotton?

  Gorgeous.

• 1:05:16Speaker 02

  There's no beating it.

• 1:05:17Fearne Cotton?

  Well, look, thank you both so much, Stephen, Ollie. It's a beautiful project. I loved reading it and thank you for being on Happy Place.

• 1:05:24Speaker 01

  Thank you very much for having us.

• 1:05:26Fearne Cotton?

  That was so interesting, having Stephen and Ollie together for that just awesome chat. I loved it. That's a conversation that will stay with me in my heart forever. But also there were just bits that, like the three Cs, I'm taking that away with me. There are conversations that I still know I need to have with, well, both my kids, but my teenage son specifically at the moment. And I think that Stephen offered some really brilliant ways to do it. The three Cs is one of them. Three great words that we all need to say to our sons. So I just found that deeply helpful. And also, as I said, the book to me was a real catalyst to write a letter to my son. He still hasn't read it, but we'll, we'll get him there somehow.

• 1:06:11Fearne Cotton?

  But even just the process of writing it was really helpful for me and quite cathartic actually, and revealing, that always happens, doesn't it, when you put pen to paper, that the truth sort of emerges somehow. So I would definitely urge you to, and I've also been thinking, having listened to Ollie speak, that wouldn't it be interesting for me to ask some really cool men in my life to write letters to my son Rex? So I think that could be really interesting and a lovely, a lovely thing for him to read over at some point. So it's definitely got me thinking and I'm sure it has you in, in many ways too. I'd love to know on social media if that's made you wanna write a letter, or maybe you have already,

• 1:06:52Fearne Cotton?

  or maybe you're thinking of doing exactly what Ollie did, getting men to write letters to your sons. We really wanna hear about it, so do let us know. Letters to Our Sons is out now. Go read it. It's so beautiful. And also do keep an eye on our podcast feed because there's another episode live from the Happy Place Festival heading your way in just a few days. But in the meantime, I wanna say a massive thanks again to Stephen and to Ollie and to you. You're all bloody gorgeous.

• 1:07:48Speaker 04

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• 1:08:47Speaker 07

  Help I Sexed My Boss is the podcast where manners meets mayhem. I'm William Hanson. I'm Jordan North. And together we take on the hilarious challenges of modern life. William's the arbiter of etiquette. And Jordan's the chaotic yin to my perfectly polished yang. So if you want laugh out loud stories and brutally honest moments, then you'll love Help I Sexed My Boss. Watch and listen every Tuesday and Friday. On YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Just search Sexed It. Be warned, it's a bit rude.