Frédéric Bourdin: No Country For Old Men | 142

In 1997 Beverly Dollarhide hears miraculous news: her missing son, Nicholas, has been found in Spain. But the person she thinks is her teenage son is actually a grown man, a well known French identity scammer named Frederic Bourdin. And, after Frederic is brought back to the United States to be with his pretend family, the mystery of the real Nicholas Barclay’s disappearance grows deeper. Be the first to know about Wondery’s newest podcasts, curated recommendations, and more! Sign up now at https://wondery.fm/wonderynewsletter Listen to Scamfluencers on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/scamfluencers/ now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Sarah Hagi?

  Audible subscribers can listen to all our episodes of Scamfluencers ad-free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app. A listener note: The following episode contains depictions of drug use and self-harm, and mention of suicide. Please listen with care.

• 0:22Sarah Hagi?

  Sachi, are people ever shocked by your age? And do they think you're older than you are or younger? I feel like they probably think you're younger. Good save.

• 0:35Sarah Hagi?

  It's funny you ask, because the other day, a man told me that he thought I was 26, and I laughed in his face. I mean, hey, that's awesome. I'll take it. Honestly, I did ask you this to brag a little, because everyone thinks I'm a little baby. Yeah. But I do think it's probably really hard to lie about age now that everyone's so online, versus back when no one had to know if it was your birthday. Yeah, I guess I've never thought about that. But yeah, it's really hard to lie about your age now. Yeah, like, I get maybe shaving off a year or two to seem slightly more youthful. But I'm going to tell you today about someone who was so brazen when it came to lying about their age they never had to grow up.

• 1:23Sarah Hagi?

  It's mid-October 1997, and a plane is getting ready to land at the San Antonio Airport. One of its passengers, Frederic Bourdin, stares anxiously out of the window. It's hot in Texas this time of year, but you wouldn't know it from his outfit. He's wearing a thick jacket, gloves, and a scarf that covers the bottom half of his face. His eyes are hidden behind big sunglasses, and a hat covers his head. Frederic is flying from Spain and has felt nervous the entire flight. And now, as people start to disembark, he's downright panicked. The woman sitting next to him, Carrie Gibson, reaches over and squeezes his hand. She promises there's nothing to worry about. Everyone is excited to see him.

• 2:07Sarah Hagi?

  Three and a half years ago, Carrie's teen brother, Nicholas Barclay, went missing from his neighborhood in rural Texas. Carrie and the rest of her family spent the last few years worried they'd never see him again. But a few days ago, they got incredible news. Nicholas was found safe in Spain. The whole family has gathered at the airport for a reunion with the now 16-year-old boy.

• 2:33Sarah Hagi?

  But Nicholas isn't coming home because Frederic is pretending to be Nicholas. He's actually a 23-year-old French man who just lied his way into the country by stealing the identity of a missing child. He was able to convince European authorities easily enough, but now Frederic will have to face the boy's entire family. When he walks into the airport, a large group is waiting to welcome him. Frederic recognizes one woman from the photos he studied, Beverly Dollar Hyde. Beverly is in her late 40s, and she's Nicholas's mother. As she walks towards him, Frederic takes a deep breath. He's sure that once Beverly sees him up close, he's going to get deported, or worse, imprisoned.

• 3:17Sarah Hagi?

  But to Frederic's surprise, Beverly pulls him into a hug and squeezes him tightly. She tells him she's happy to have him home.

• 3:26Scaachi Koul?

  What an evil thing to do to this woman. I'm locked in. I'm terrified.

• 3:31Sarah Hagi?

  Well, Frederic Bourne has spent most of his life pretending to be other people. But this is a new low even for him, manipulating a grieving family who is desperate to have their son back and taking his place in their home. Frederic thought he'd be exposed the moment he met Beverly, but for some reason, this family seems to believe him. While he wonders why they seem so invested in an obvious lie, he'll have to really commit to impersonating Nicholas to stay out of jail. It's only a matter of time before the truth comes out. But whose truth is another question entirely.

• 4:13Speaker 02

  With a Spark Cash Plus card from Capital One, you earn unlimited 2% cash back on every purchase. And you get big purchasing power, so your business can spin more and earn more.

• 4:26Speaker 03

  Alice, have you ever wondered why the Mini is so small?

• 4:30Speaker 04

  The Skir or the Magnum?

• 4:32Speaker 03

  Well, I meant the iconic British car, because in 1956, Britain's oil supply was suddenly cut off. Petrol rationing was brought in and the car industry was scrambling around for a vehicle that hardly used any fuel. Enter the Mini.

• 4:46Speaker 04

  Interesting, but actually not technically British Scandal series material.

• 4:51Speaker 03

  Well, the reason they had to save petrol is because the Prime Minister started a war and lied about why.

• 4:57Speaker 04

  Okay, scandal siren going off.

• 4:59Speaker 03

  I'm Matt Ford.

• 5:00Speaker 04

  And I'm Alice Levine.

• 5:01Speaker 03

  And our latest British Scandal series involves a secret meeting in a French villa, a Prime Minister running on amphetamines...

• 5:07Speaker 04

  An Egyptian president that everyone fancied, the end of the British Empire, and at the heart of it, a canal.

• 5:14Speaker 03

  This is the story of the Sewers Plot.

• 5:17Speaker 04

  Follow British Scandal wherever you get your podcasts or listen early and ad-free on Audible.

• 5:30Sarah Hagi?

  From Wondery, I'm Sarah Haggy. And I'm Sachi Cole. And this is Scamfluencers.

• 5:43Sarah Hagi?

  Frederic Bourdin has taken on hundreds of fake identities in his many years as a professional imposter. But when he steps into the life of Nicholas Barclay, he'll have to pretend to be a real-life missing child. But a fake son isn't the only thing that feels off in Nicholas Barclay's home. The more Frederic settles into Nicholas's world, the more he suspects he's not the only one hiding something. He starts to wonder what could have happened to the real Nicholas Barclay and realizes that his own crimes may have gotten him involved in something much bigger and much darker than he could have ever imagined. This is Frederic Bourdin: No Country For Old Men.

• 6:27Sarah Hagi?

  Before we dive into Frederic's many false identities, let's start with who he really is. Frederic is born in Paris in 1974. His mother is only 18 years old and struggling to make ends meet. Frederic never meets his father. He just knows he's an Algerian man who's married to another woman. Frederic's family thinks his mom is more focused on drinking and dancing than raising a child. So when Frederic is only two, Child Services places him in his grandparents' custody. But his grandparents live in rural France. And as a half-Algerian kid being raised by white grandparents, wearing thrifted clothes at a time before that was cool, it's impossible to blend in.

• 7:09Sarah Hagi?

  From a young age, Frederic feels like he just doesn't belong. He's desperate for love and acceptance. So he copes the way many little kids do, by making up tall tales. He starts telling his classmates that his dad isn't around because he's actually a secret agent. A very common childhood lie, from what I gather.

• 7:30Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, I don't think I ever really lied about anything my parents did for a living, but I did invent fascinating backstories for them.

• 7:38Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, I mean, I lied about my sister getting free Pokemon cards when she worked at Walmart, and that fell through very fast, as you know. Well, unlike us, Frederic has a natural talent for lying. Once he realizes that his lies sound better than the truth and that people are willing to believe him, his lies get bigger and more outlandish. He acts out in other ways, too, like stealing from his neighbors. Frederic's grandparents can't deal with a misbehaving teen. So when he turns 12, they send him to live in a juvenile facility where his penchant for lying and drama only grows. He starts roaming the streets pretending to be lost, and he fakes amnesia to get attention and sympathy from strangers.

• 8:21Sarah Hagi?

  He realizes that people will go out of their way to help a child in need and shower him with the attention he's craved his entire childhood. About four years later, when Frederic is 16, the juvenile center gets fed up with his antics, and they move him into another group home. At this point, Frederic has spent his entire life being displaced at the whims of others. So now, he decides it's time to take control by running away.

• 8:48Sarah Hagi?

  Frederic hitchhikes 200 miles to Paris. But once he gets there, he's scared, alone, and broke in a big city. He could go back to his group home, but he doesn't want to return to his old life. So instead, he decides to lie his way into a new one. Frederic walks up to a Parisian police officer and pretends to be a lost 14-year-old British boy. He's hoping that the police will be sympathetic and send him home to England where he can start a brand-new life for himself. Unfortunately, there's one massive problem with his plan. Frederic barely speaks English. The police can tell he's lying and they send him back to the youth home.

• 9:31Scaachi Koul?

  Not a great plan, but I do have sympathy for him not wanting to be in a group home. It's terrible.

• 9:36Sarah Hagi?

  Of course, it's very understandable. But Frederic isn't discouraged. He decides that playing a British kid was too ambitious. He needs to pick more convincing characters. So once again, he runs away from the group home and hitchhikes to a new city. Once he gets there, he pretends to be lost and sick and is admitted to a children's hospital. But instead of faking amnesia, this time, he pretends to be mute. He communicates by writing and gives the hospital a fake name. He says that all he wants is an education and a loving home. But he runs away after a few months when the doctors start to dig into his past.

• 10:15Scaachi Koul?

  These are like soap opera plots.

• 10:17Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah.

• 10:18Scaachi Koul?

  Like, these are not well-thought-out plans even for a teenager.

• 10:22Sarah Hagi?

  No. And in June of 1992, Frederic turns 18. And as a legal adult, he's set free from the foster care system and is able to do whatever he wants. The problem is, Frederic doesn't want to be an adult, so he decides he doesn't have to be. He'll keep pretending to be fictional children to get sympathy and shelter. Over time, Frederic fine-tunes his routine. First, he goes to a phone box and calls the police, pretending to be a tourist who just found a lost child. He almost always pretends to be 14. It's young enough that people want to help him, but not so young that he won't be believed. Then, when the police show up, Frederic pretends to be the lost child. He's pretty convincing. He has a small build,

• 11:07Sarah Hagi?

  and he softens his voice to sound younger. Inevitably, he gets taken in by an orphanage or shelter. And the minute people get suspicious, he skips town for some other European city and starts over. Here he is, years later, talking to 60 Minutes Australia about running this con.

• 11:25Speaker 05

  I've been more than 500 person, more than 500. Because you had to imagine that for 15 years, every week, I had to be somewhere else and being someone else.

• 11:38Scaachi Koul?

  Hey, this sounds like a terrible way to live. Like, it's not even worth it. You may as well just get a part-time job.

• 11:44Sarah Hagi?

  It sounds really difficult, especially once you are 18 and don't have to be a part of a care system.

• 11:49Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah.

• 11:50Sarah Hagi?

  Like, I understand wanting to escape that as a child, but once you're 18, like, you can do whatever you want.

• 11:55Scaachi Koul?

  Mm-hmm.

• 11:56Sarah Hagi?

  Well, Frederic has found a way to get the attention he craves and the freedom he never had as an actual kid. But when the authorities threaten to put an end to his act, Frederic will have to stoop to new lows to avoid facing grown-up consequences.

• 12:13Sarah Hagi?

  It's November 1993, and the now-19-year-old Frederic is in a town in the southwest of France. He walks into the middle of the street and just lays down. When the authorities investigate, he refuses to speak. The story of an apparently mute child with amnesia catches the attention of the local newspaper. They publish a few articles about the strange, silent, lost kid. And when Frederic pulls the con again in a nearby town, they follow up with an exposé about his ruse. This leads to even more coverage by French journalists. But the press aren't the only ones paying attention. The police are also. Onto him. He's wanted for lying about his identity to court officials and police officers.

• 12:58Sarah Hagi?

  But so far, he's been able to slip away before ever facing any real repercussions. At some point, the police do manage to fingerprint him, and Interpol, the world's largest international police organization, opens a file on him, which keeps growing as he hops from town to town. You'd think all this attention would make Frederic more careful, but apparently not. After Interpol catches wind of his scheme, a French TV show invites him on for an interview about his criminal escapades. At this point, Frederic is 21 years old and still pretending to be a lost 14-year-old boy.

• 13:37Scaachi Koul?

  It would be wild to say yes to an interview like this. I don't see any incentive if he's managing to evade Interpol.

• 13:46Sarah Hagi?

  Well, the thing is, Frederic kind of wants attention. In Paris, he sits onstage in front of a live studio audience and goes through a long interview, repeating the same thing he always has: that all he wants is love and a family. And afterwards, he simply walks out a free man. Somehow, even under the media spotlight, Frederic is able to move on with no firm legal consequences. The interview boosts Frederic's notoriety in France. Eventually, he gets a nickname in the press: "The Chameleon", and he leaves France behind to travel through over a dozen European countries, including Belgium, Germany, Denmark, and Sweden. But Frederic is about to learn that some places

• 14:30Sarah Hagi?

  aren't willing to take in a missing child without asking tough questions. And when international authorities demand an explanation, Frederic will tell his biggest lie yet. It's 1997, two years since Frederic appeared on French TV. He's now in Spain, running his usual routine, claiming to be a lost kid, even though he's 23. By this point, he's pulled his con hundreds of times. He's impersonated missing boys from all over the world and used fake names like Benjamin Kent, Peter Samson, and my personal favorite, Michelangelo Martini.

• 15:08Scaachi Koul?

  Oh, well, I love Michelangelo Martini.

• 15:12Sarah Hagi?

  Just stick with Michelangelo Martini, and you will become a star.

• 15:16Scaachi Koul?

  No one's ever gonna arrest you for anything. They can't have an inmate Martini.

• 15:20Sarah Hagi?

  Of the Martini family.

• 15:24Sarah Hagi?

  Well, Frederic Scam works in Spain, and he's sent to another youth home. But not long after, the Spanish authorities start to catch on. Frederic is sent before a child welfare judge, who doesn't believe he's a teenager. She gives Frederic 24 hours to prove his identity, and if he can't, he'll get fingerprinted and photographed. Frederic's stomach drops. Remember, Interpol already has his fingerprints. He's convinced that once they discover who he really is, he'll go to prison. Frederic pleads with the judge and comes up with a new lie. He's an American boy separated from his family. He asks for a phone and some privacy so he can call his parents. And he promises that by the next morning,

• 16:08Sarah Hagi?

  he'll have proof of his identity. So the judge agrees to let him use the shelter's office phone, unsupervised.

• 16:16Scaachi Koul?

  Is everyone insane? Is anybody paying attention? He has already done television interviews about the scam he is actively pulling.

• 16:26Sarah Hagi?

  But what if he's really a child?

• 16:28Scaachi Koul?

  I think we should be meaner to children.

• 16:30Sarah Hagi?

  I agree. Well, the minute he's alone, Frederic looks up phone numbers for American police stations and starts calling them. He tells them he's a local Spanish police officer, and he needs help identifying a lost American child. Eventually, he gets patched through to a woman at the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. When the woman asks for a description of a lost American boy, Frederic describes himself: short, with brown hair and a gap between his teeth. The woman says she has a potential match: a boy named Nicholas Barclay, who went missing from San Antonio three years ago when he was 13 years old. The woman faxes over a photo.

• 17:12Sarah Hagi?

  Frederic is looking down at a black-and-white missing poster. He decides that he and Nicholas look enough alike for his plan to work. Frederic tells the woman on the phone that he has good news: Nicholas Barclay is no longer missing. After years of pretending to be fictitious lost children, Frederic is stooping to a new low, stealing the identity of a real one to avoid facing consequences for his crimes.

• 17:39Scaachi Koul?

  Extremely evil, very spooky, dark-sided.

• 17:43Sarah Hagi?

  So evil.

• 17:44Scaachi Koul?

  Bad, bad, bad, bad.

• 17:46Sarah Hagi?

  And to Frederic's surprise, people believe his new lie. He manages to convince shelter employees and Spanish authorities that he is Nicholas Barclay. But what he doesn't expect is what comes next. They start the process of reuniting him with Nicholas's family. To keep his freedom, Frederic will have to pull off his greatest impersonation yet.

• 18:10Sarah Hagi?

  The Center for Missing and Exploited Children overnights an envelope to the Spanish shelter filled with everything they know about Nicholas, including a full-color photo of him. Frederic intercepts the package and opens it in private. And the second he sees the photo, he freaks out. While Frederic has deep brown eyes and dark brown hair, Nicholas is blond and blue-eyed. And Nicholas has a tattoo of a cross on his hand. But it's too late to back out now, so Frederic decides to commit to the act. He has a few days before the big reunion and spends it trying to physically transform himself. He bleaches his hair in the bathroom and asks one of the other kids in the shelter to give him the same tattoo as Nicholas.

• 18:54Sarah Hagi?

  Sachi, I have a picture of the real Nicholas Barclay next to Frederic post-transformation. What do you think?

• 19:01Scaachi Koul?

  Um, this dye job is atrocious. His nose is seven, eight times the size of this child's nose. He has the most punchable jaw I've ever seen in my life. This is supposed to be a minor? He looks like he's 37 years old.

• 19:18Sarah Hagi?

  It is so beyond crazy to me when you see this photo, when you're like, wait, this guy was pretending to be a kid? Forget comparing him to Nicholas. This is not a child, this is a man.

• 19:28Scaachi Koul?

  His neck is like a tree stump. You could have a picnic on it.

• 19:32Sarah Hagi?

  It's mind blowing how crazy this is. Well, Frederic also studies the file on his new identity, memorizing details about Nicholas and his family. He knows that he needs to explain where Nicholas has been the last few years. Since no one knows what happened to the real Nicholas Barclay, Frederic comes up with a story that he thinks will get him boundless sympathy. He says he was kidnapped from his Texas neighborhood and brought to Europe where he became part of a child sex trafficking ring. He says that for the last three years, he's endured unimaginable abuse and torture, but he finally managed to escape.

• 20:11Scaachi Koul?

  Sarah, I think there is something especially evil about lying about sexual abuse. That is super evil. So awful for this kid's family, who like, best case scenario, they have their kid back, but their child has had immeasurable harm done to them.

• 20:28Sarah Hagi?

  No, it's beyond twisted and that this is an adult man making up this lie is just beyond words.

• 20:37Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah.

• 20:38Sarah Hagi?

  Well, after a few days, Frederic is told that Nicholas's half-sister Carrie is on her way from Texas to bring him home. Frederic assumes that the moment Carrie sees him, she'll realize he's an impostor. So he makes a plan. Right before she arrives, he'll bundle up in a scarf and sunglasses to hide as much of his face as possible. When Carrie finally arrives, Frederic prepares himself for the worst. But he's about to learn that when people are desperate and grieving, they're willing to believe almost anything.

• 21:13Sarah Hagi?

  It's October 1997, and Carrie is standing in a courtyard at a children's shelter in Spain. Carrie is 31, twice Nicholas's age, and has two kids of her own. Despite the big age gap, she was always close with her little brother, and she was devastated when he went missing. In some ways, it fell to Carrie to keep the family together afterward. And that's exactly what she's doing here today. As she stands in the courtyard, she's flooded with anticipation. She's dreamt of this reunion for years. Carrie comes from a sheltered background. Before today, she'd never been on a plane or even left North America. This whole process has been strange and scary,

• 21:56Sarah Hagi?

  but it's worth it to finally be reunited with her brother. Finally, she sees Nicholas walking towards her. He's bundled up in a scarf and sunglasses, but she doesn't question it. She simply runs up and pulls him into a hug. Here's Carrie explaining her reaction years later for the documentary "The Impostor." Just this sense of immense relief. Just seeing, touching, kissing, holding him. He wasn't the same Nicholas that disappeared four years before. He had been held and tortured and God knows what else. He wasn't that same person.

• 22:34Scaachi Koul?

  It makes a lot more sense, too, about why then they didn't know that it wasn't actually their family member. Because this is someone who's gone through this life experience that would change them. And he looks different, he feels different, he seems different. They're not going to question it.

• 22:47Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, you're not going to be like, wait a second, why are you like this? Like, you're going to think everything is a trauma response if he'd gone through all that, right?

• 22:55Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah.

• 22:55Sarah Hagi?

  While Carrie tells the Spanish authorities that this is, without a doubt, her brother. They start the process of getting him an American passport and a plane ticket back to the US. Carrie is desperate to believe that with Nicholas back, they can start a new chapter. Instead, she's about to bring a brand-new set of problems home with her, including an international investigation with her family and its crosshairs.

• 23:29Speaker 03

  Alice, have you ever wondered why the Mini is so small?

• 23:32Speaker 04

  The skirt or the Magnum?

• 23:35Speaker 03

  Well, I meant the iconic British car. Because in 1956, Britain's oil supply was suddenly cut off. Petrol rationing was brought in, and the car industry was scrambling around for a vehicle that hardly used any fuel. Enter... The Mini.

• 23:49Speaker 04

  Interesting, but actually not technically British Scandal series material.

• 23:54Speaker 03

  Well, the reason they had to save petrol is because the Prime Minister started a war and lied about why.

• 23:59Speaker 04

  Okay, scandal siren going off.

• 24:02Speaker 03

  I'm Matt Ford.

• 24:02Speaker 04

  And I'm Alice Levine.

• 24:04Speaker 03

  And our latest British scandal series involves a secret meeting in a French villa, a Prime Minister running on amphetamines.

• 24:09Speaker 04

  An Egyptian president that everyone fancied, the end of the British Empire, and at the heart of it, a canal.

• 24:16Speaker 03

  This is the story of the Suez Plot.

• 24:19Speaker 04

  Follow British Scandal wherever you get your podcasts, or listen early and ad-free on Audible.

• 24:29Speaker 06

  Ghosts aren't real. At least, that's what journalist Tristan Redmond always believed. Sure, odd things happen in his childhood bedroom, but ultimately, he shrugged them off. Until he discovered that he wasn't alone, that everyone who lived thereafter him also had bizarre experiences they couldn't explain. And it gets even weirder. It just so happens that his wife's great-grandmother was murdered in the house next door. Is this ghost somehow connected to her murder? He decides to go where no son-in-law should, digging up a cold case and asking questions that nobody wants answered. Like, could his wife's great-grandfather have gotten away with the perfect crime? This is a podcast about family secrets, overwhelming

• 25:11Speaker 06

  coincidence, and the things that come back to haunt us. For the best bingeable series, like Ghost Story, listen to the Audible True Crime Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can get all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 25:38Sarah Hagi?

  The month after Frederic arrives in Texas, Charlie Parker is sitting in his office in San Antonio. He's reading up on Nicholas Barclay, the local teen who was abducted in 1994 and just turned up in Spain. Charlie's a 56-year-old private investigator with a slight southern drawl. He recently retired after three decades of selling lumber, and now, he's following his true passion: investigating. He even runs a murderers' club, where the members try, and sometimes do, solve cold cases. Here's a photo. Can you describe him?

• 26:14Scaachi Koul?

  He looks exactly like Anthony Hopkins if he did a stretch on NCIS.

• 26:20Sarah Hagi?

  Oh, totally. I mean, he's wearing suspenders, he's sitting in a diner with a cup of coffee. Like, this guy's an investigator.

• 26:26Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah.

• 26:27Sarah Hagi?

  Well, a few days earlier, a producer from a national tabloid news show called Hard Copy called Charlie. They'd heard about Nicholas's story and want Charlie to help him track down the boy for an interview. Charlie's able to find Nicholas and his family. He learns Nicholas is struggling to settle back into his life in Texas, and that he's not the only one having a hard time adjusting. Nicholas's family has never been the most stable, even before his disappearance. His mother, Beverly, raised him while struggling with an addiction to heroin. She worked hard to stay clean and sober throughout his childhood, but fell back into it after he vanished. Now, even though she's ecstatic that her son is home,

• 27:09Sarah Hagi?

  she and her family know she's not quite equipped to look after him. Plus, she works a night shift at Dunkin' Donuts seven days a week, so she wouldn't be home to watch her son in the evenings. So Nicholas goes to stay with Carrie in the trailer where she lives with her husband and two kids who are around Nicholas's age. The FBI has a lot of questions about how a kidnapped boy from rural Texas ended up in Spain. But for now, they're giving him time to settle in. They only ask one thing: that he not talk to the press. The feds are worried that publicity could jeopardize their investigation. But soon after returning home, Nicholas agrees to multiple TV interviews, including that one with Hard Copy.

• 27:54Scaachi Koul?

  The hubris is overwhelming. Like, he doesn't give a shit. It's so crazy.

• 28:01Sarah Hagi?

  He cannot stop. And just two weeks after Nicholas arrived in Texas, the Hard Copy crew arrives at Carrie's trailer. And as the investigator who made it possible, Charlie is invited to watch the interview. Nicholas wears his usual bulky getup, but adds a splash of Texas, including a leather cowboy hat, sunglasses, and a 5 o'clock shadow. He recounts his story methodically. He was at the basketball court. He called home for a ride, but was told to walk home. And then he was abducted. And then he shares that for the last three years, he was part of a sex trafficking ring with dozens of other missing children. He says his abductors drugged, beat, and even performed experiments on him.

• 28:46Sarah Hagi?

  And he says he was forbidden from speaking English the entire time, which explains his weird French accent. While Charlie listens to this shocking story, he spots an old photo of Nicholas on a nearby shelf. Charlie looks back and forth from the picture of Nicholas to the person sitting across the room from him. Here's Charlie describing this moment in the imposter documentary.

• 29:11Speaker 06

  As I looked at the picture, I noticed that the boy had blue-gray looking eyes, and this man had brown eyes. It was a moment where the hair stood on the back of your neck, and there was just something wrong about it.

• 29:24Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, what's wrong is that this is an adult man pretending to be somebody else who went missing. That's what's wrong.

• 29:31Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, and it takes one guy to be like, "That's not the same person."

• 29:34Scaachi Koul?

  Just someone's gotta look a little harder.

• 29:37Sarah Hagi?

  Well, Charlie once heard that ears can be used to identify people because they're as unique as fingerprints. So when no one's looking, he slips a photo of the real Nicholas into his pocket. Later, he compares it to that day's footage of the interview with Nicholas. He confirms his suspicions. The ears aren't a match. This guy is not Nicholas Barclay. When the hard copy segment finally airs, it shares a heartwarming story of a missing boy returned to his family. But Charlie smells a rat, and he won't rest until he figures out who this Nicholas impersonator really is.

• 30:17Sarah Hagi?

  Around the same time that hard copy is interviewing Nicholas, FBI agent Nancy Fisher is sitting in a waiting room at the Texas Children's Hospital in Houston. Nancy has brown hair and has a vibe of your most intense math teacher. Though Nicholas's family has welcomed him with open arms, the FBI still has a ton of questions. Nancy met him shortly after he arrived in Texas to hear his disturbing story. Nicholas recounted some of the most grueling torture she had ever heard of, and also the strangest. For example, he said they injected his eyes with different fluids to make them change color, which is why they're now brown instead of blue. That's nonsense.

• 31:02Sarah Hagi?

  That is sci-fi nonsense. Why would the kidnappers waste their time doing that? In what world? Because they are scientists doing experiments. Okay? Fine. Nicholas claims a sex ring he was part of involved dozens of children. And if that's true, Nancy wants him to find the abductors and to save the children still trapped. But every conversation she's had with Nicholas has gone nowhere. That's why she flew with him to Houston today for an interview with Bruce Perry, a psychiatrist who specializes in working with traumatized children. Through simple conversation, Bruce can help kids recall more about what they had lived through and uncover buried memories that can be crucial in police investigations.

• 31:47Sarah Hagi?

  Nancy is hopeful that Bruce's interview with Nicholas will turn up a few leads she can follow. And she's probably also hoping Bruce can put her mind at ease. Nancy recently got a strange call from private investigator Charlie Parker. Charlie made a shocking claim. He believes an imposter is posing as Nicholas. At first, Nancy mostly dismissed Charlie. She doesn't feel right about questioning Nicholas's family. They've already been through so much, and they're convinced this is their son. Plus, no one in the US has ever lied and claimed to be a missing kid before. And why would they? What Charlie is suggesting seems ludicrous.

• 32:30Sarah Hagi?

  Then again, Nancy has picked up on some red flags, like the fact that Nicholas, with his deep-set eyes, chin stubble, and dark brown roots, doesn't look like a naturally blonde 16-year-old. Oh, wha- What is up with these people? You're like, it's crazy. His hair is turning brown as it grows.

• 32:51Scaachi Koul?

  With frosted tips. Like, it is crazy. But he thought he was a teenager.

• 33:00Sarah Hagi?

  Well, finally, Bruce, the psychologist, steps into the waiting room. He asks Nancy if the two can talk privately. Bruce explains that generally, his patients display clear markers of distress when they talk about their traumas, changes in their heart rate, posture, and even their pupil size. But he doesn't see any of that in Nicholas. And then, there's his accent. Nicholas spent his developmental years speaking American English, so it should be coming back now that he's home. There's no logical reason for him to be stuck with a thick European accent. Bruce tells Nancy that, in his professional opinion, the boy he just talked to has never lived in the US

• 33:44Sarah Hagi?

  and is likely from France or Spain instead. At the very least, he is certainly not Nicholas. Nancy is shaken. Right away, she calls Carrie to break the news. The person you brought home from Spain, he isn't your brother. Carrie freaks out, screeching on the phone in confusion and anguish. Nancy warns her that the imposter is likely dangerous and that Carrie shouldn't welcome him back into their home. But once Carrie composes herself, she insists that Nancy hasn't wrong. The boy is her brother. Nancy also calls Nicholas's mother, Beverly, and is met with the same denial. The family forms a united front, unwilling to entertain

• 34:29Sarah Hagi?

  the possibility that this boy isn't Nicholas.

• 34:34Scaachi Koul?

  I have empathy for the family here. What a brutalizing experience, and you want to believe. But like, this is an adult man.

• 34:43Sarah Hagi?

  Yes. And after this, Nancy and Nicholas fly back to San Antonio. And when they arrive at the airport, Carrie's there, waiting to take him home. Nancy feels queasy as she watches Carrie and Nicholas hug. But Nancy and the FBI aren't going to let this rest. And they aren't the only ones who are getting wise to Frederic's charade. Because he's about to meet the one member of Nicholas's family who does not seem ready to fall for his act.

• 35:15Sarah Hagi?

  It's late 1997, about a month after Frederic spoke to the child psychologist in Houston. And he's trying to settle into his new life. He's gotten closer with Nicholas's family and found a comfortable routine. He goes to high school, where he's made a few friends. He plays Nintendo with Carrie's son, and they all watch movies together as a family. Frederic worries that the real Nicholas might show up and expose his ruse. But in the meantime, he's finally living the domestic life he's always dreamed of. Except, the family isn't actually his. Frederic later says he starts to feel guilty. He's used to making up identities, but stealing someone else's feels different.

• 35:58Sarah Hagi?

  Still, he doesn't feel guilty enough to turn himself in. I don't really think he does feel that guilty. I think he was gonna try to get away with this for as long as he could. I mean, who knows? He's in deep. I do not know what someone like him could possibly be feeling. But there's one member of the family who Frederic has yet to meet: His half-brother, Jason Dollarhide. Jason is 11 years older than Nicholas, and he was living with his brother and their mom at the time of the disappearance. Last year, Jason checked himself into rehab for a long-time drug problem and finally got clean. He was still living there and working as a counselor when his brother miraculously resurfaced.

• 36:43Sarah Hagi?

  Frederic thinks it's strange that Jason hadn't already come to see him. And on the day of Jason's visit, he paces a trailer back and forth, nervous to finally meet him. When Jason shows up, he gives Frederic a hug in front of his family. But the hug itself is stiff, awkward, and brief. Frederic feels like something's off. And as the day winds down, Jason asks Frederic to join him outside for a private chat. He takes out a gold necklace with a crucifix, puts it around Frederic's neck, and tells him, "Good luck." Then Jason says his goodbyes and leaves. As Frederic watches Jason go, he has a gut feeling. Jason knows he's not Nicholas.

• 37:28Sarah Hagi?

  But for some reason, he doesn't want to alert his family, which makes Frederic wonder: Does Jason know what happened to the real Nicholas Barclay? Before this day, Frederic worried that the real Nicholas would reappear and expose his fraud. But now, he's more worried that the boy is dead and that Jason had something to do with it.

• 37:51Scaachi Koul?

  I guess I can see why he would be like, "Oh, this guy is not behaving like the rest of the family. There must be something up with him. He must know what happened to this kid." But also, I can't trust him because he is pretending to be a child.

• 38:05Sarah Hagi?

  Yes, but also, you have to remember that this guy thought he would be figured out instantly. And the fact that he hasn't been and that it's gone this smoothly and weirdly is probably the craziest thing that ever happened to him. So yes, it is a drastic conclusion to jump to, and it's hard to know whether or not Frederic really believes this. But either way, here's what he said in an interview with 60 Minutes Australia two decades later.

• 38:31Speaker 05

  I knew they knew I wasn't Nicholas. I knew that they were pretending I was Nicholas. I knew it very deeply in my heart, and I knew they were pretending that I was pretending. It was a never-ending game.

• 38:41Sarah Hagi?

  Over the next few weeks, Frederic's behavior becomes more and more erratic. At one point, he goes into the bathroom at Carrie's house and mutilates his face with a razor. The family is freaked out, but as far as they know, he's struggling to cope with three years of torture, so it makes sense that he would act out. Still, Carrie worries about the safety of her own children, so she sends him to live with their mom, Beverly. At Beverly's house, Frederic doesn't feel the same warmth he got from Carrie. Instead, she seems suspicious and wary of him. Frederic is sure something is wrong, and he starts to believe that Beverly might have been involved with whatever happened to Nicholas.

• 39:24Sarah Hagi?

  After all, how could a mother not recognize her own son? Frederic's new reality is turning into a nightmare. As he starts to wonder about the secrets his new family is keeping, the authorities are getting closer to discovering his scheme. And soon, they'll grow suspicious of the Dollar hides as well.

• 39:46Sarah Hagi?

  It's early 1998. Private investigator Charlie Parker is sitting in his car outside of Beverly's apartment building. He's watching closely as the fake Nicholas leaves the apartment and walks to the bus stop. A few months ago, when Charlie first started suspecting Nicholas was actually an imposter, he went to the San Antonio Police Department, and they immediately wrote him off. Since then, Charlie's become obsessed with proving he's right. He's poured countless hours into interviewing Beverly's neighbors, following the fake Nicholas around, and telling anyone who will listen about his ear theory. At one point, he even contacted Beverly directly to warn her, but she shut him down.

• 40:30Sarah Hagi?

  A few days after the call, the fake Nicholas apparently called Charlie and angrily asked, "Who do you think you are?" I obviously don't trust fake Nicholas, but I feel like I don't fully trust Charlie either. Like, he has his own motivations for wanting to be right and being this aggressive with a family that might very well still be in grief. I mean, maybe he's so sure that something is wrong that he doesn't think this family is grieving. And luckily for Charlie, he does have one person in his corner. FBI agent Nancy has come around to the reality that Nicholas really is an imposter. Charlie feels relieved that the FBI is running a parallel investigation.

• 41:12Sarah Hagi?

  And Nancy and Charlie have actually started sharing their discoveries with each other. It's a cute dynamic: a by-the-books FBI agent and a rogue P.I. who'll stop at nothing. Charlie's been finding clues by learning everything he can about the real Nicholas and his family. So far, he's discovered that before Nicholas disappeared, he was known as a bit of a troublemaker. He and his mom were always very close, but their dynamic shifted after Jason moved back home. The three of them would often get into explosive fights that resulted in police visits to the house. Charlie also learns that in the months after Nicholas vanished, Beverly and Jason were at each other's throats constantly, and the police had to Step in again when it turned violent.

• 41:57Sarah Hagi?

  Jason claimed these fights were prompted by the stress Beverly was under after Nicholas's disappearance, which wasn't helped by the fact that she was usually drunk. Jason's addiction issues also intensified around this time, so between the two of them, the household was volatile. Some family members believed Jason's drug use was spurred by his guilt about his brother's disappearance. He was the one who refused to drive Nicholas home from the basketball court. If he picks Jason up, then maybe his brother wouldn't have vanished. Charlie tracks down one final breakthrough. Three months after Nicholas went missing, Jason called the police station with some exciting news.

• 42:39Sarah Hagi?

  He'd spotted Nicholas trying to break into the garage, but he ran off. The police swept the area, but they didn't find any signs of Nicholas. And Charlie now fears that something dark happened. His new theory is that Jason lied about seeing Nicholas to cover his own tracks and make the police believe Nicholas had simply run away. The more Charlie looks into it, the more he's convinced that something is off. And while he doesn't think Beverly would hurt her own son, he does think she knows more than she's letting on. To Charlie, it's the only possible motive they'd have to let a stranger impersonate their son.

• 43:19Sarah Hagi?

  I thought this story was so dark, but the idea that the family is in on it because they did something to this kid is beyond. I don't even know what to make of that. Is everyone in this story evil? I mean, you're about to find out. Charlie's excited about where Nancy's FBI investigation is heading. Nancy's about to ask Beverly and the so-called Nicholas for a blood test to see if they're actually related. For months, Beverly hasn't been cooperating. She seemed angry that the FBI would even suggest Nicholas isn't her son. Now Nancy has a warrant. But even with the FBI at her door, with a warrant in hand,

• 44:01Sarah Hagi?

  Beverly still refuses to allow her blood to be drawn. She actually throws herself on the floor, saying she's not going to get up. Nancy simply replies, "Yes, you are." And while she's at it, Nancy gets Nicholas's fingerprints. She wants to see if he has a criminal record with Interpol. The FBI has finally gotten the one thing Frederic can't lie his way out of. And with their new suspicions about Beverly and Jason, it's only a matter of time until someone gets exposed.

• 44:38Speaker 02

  Journalist Daphne Caruana Galizia spent her life exposing powerful people. Then, in 2017, she was killed in a car bombing. I'm Stephen Gray, and for the past nine years, I've been trying to find out who wanted her dead. That search took me to Malta through secret companies, organized crime, and eventually to one of the island's richest and most powerful men. Now, after years of waiting, this trial has finally happened. But when the verdict came in, the case took a turn that almost no one had expected. In a brand-new update to the multi-award-winning podcast Who Killed Daphne? I'm returning to Malta to find out how we got there and where the search for the truth goes next. Listen to the new episode of Who Killed Daphne wherever you get your podcasts,

• 45:24Speaker 02

  and you can hear the full six-part investigation from the beginning ad-free with Audible. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app and by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 45:38Speaker 02

  Imagine you're reading Pride and Prejudice, except you're not reading it. Harris Dickinson and Marissa Abella are reading it to you on Audible. Her barbs sting you. His coldness sends a shiver up your spine, your heart.

• 45:50Speaker 03

  Aches, your ears burn. You yearn for Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy to profess their undying love for one another. You can't bear it any longer. Well, maybe a chapter longer. Performance is so good, you'll give love a second chance. Audible. Stories that speak to you.

• 46:18Sarah Hagi?

  It's early March 1998. Charlie Parker is sitting at a classic San Antonio diner. It's got yellow walls, a Tex-Mex menu, and an American flag used as decor. Charlie is sitting in a booth with bright turquoise upholstery during the breakfast rush. And sitting across from him is the man pretending to be Nicholas Barclay. After living as Nicholas for almost five months, Frederique finally got fingerprinted and had his blood drawn a couple of weeks ago. Charlie knows that Nancy and her FBI colleagues should be getting the results any day now. But that's not the only reason he's at the diner with whoever this is. Yesterday, Charlie received a phone call from Beverly.

• 47:02Sarah Hagi?

  For months, she's held firm in her belief that Nicholas isn't an imposter. But last night, a panicked Beverly called, begging for help. She told Charlie that earlier that morning, she'd driven Nicholas past his elementary school, and he didn't recognize it. For some reason, that was her breaking point. She now feels certain that the man living with her is not her son. Maybe the fake Nicholas sensed that Beverly was on to him, because this morning, he agreed to meet with Charlie. Charlie starts by telling Nicholas that he upset his mother, and Frederique immediately looks up and snaps, "She's not my mother, and you know it."

• 47:42Scaachi Koul?

  Oh, chilling.

• 47:45Sarah Hagi?

  Well, it's worth noting that Frederic completely denies this version of events. He admits that he and Charlie met for breakfast, but says he never confessed to anything. He says that Charlie made it all up for unearned glory. That being said, between these two men, one of them seems a little more credible than the other, so we're telling Charlie's version of events. Charlie asks the impostor who he really is, and to Charlie's surprise, he finally comes clean. His name is Frederic Bourdin, he's wanted by Interpol, and Charlie's eyes grow wide. He puts his fork down and excuses himself to the washroom.

• 48:27Sarah Hagi?

  As soon as a door shuts, he immediately calls Nancy with the big news. Their suspicions were spot on. As it turns out, Nancy just received the results of Frederic's fingerprints, which confirm the same thing. Nancy's trying to get a warrant for Frederic's arrest. It might take a few hours, so she asks Charlie to stall and keep him at the diner for as long as possible. Charlie walks back to the booth, heart pounding. The two men sit and talk for an hour, with Frederic recounting every detail of his scams. Finally, when he feels like he can't stall any longer, Charlie drives Frederic home to Beverly.

• 49:08Sarah Hagi?

  And as he pulls away, he sees Nancy and a convoy of FBI cars descend onto the house. With the joint efforts of Charlie, the FBI, and Interpol, it seems Frederic has finally been pinned down by law enforcement. But still, the question remains: what happened to the real Nicholas Barclay? As Frederic sees Nancy and her FBI colleagues pull up to Beverly's apartment, he knows this is the end of the road for him. He doesn't put up a fight, he just puts his hands behind his back and ducks into the back of a cop car. Naturally, Frederic's arrest becomes a massive news story. Once in custody, Frederic admits to lying,

• 49:53Sarah Hagi?

  but he says he's uncovered an even bigger lie that should interest the police more. And that's when he accuses Beverly and Jason of killing the real Nicholas Barclay. He thinks that's why Beverly accepted him as her son, despite all the evidence otherwise.

• 50:09Scaachi Koul?

  I guess he has nothing to lose anymore, so he may as well just throw out whatever accusations he can, even if they are mostly unfounded.

• 50:18Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, I mean, Nicholas's entire family says they're heartbroken by these accusations. They say that Frederic gave them hope and wormed his way into their lives when they were at their most vulnerable. Plus, this person is a noted liar. Why should anyone believe him? But authorities gear up to launch a murder investigation with Beverly and Jason as its two suspects. Though they know Frederic isn't reliable, they do think Beverly and Jason's behavior over the past few months, like refusing to take a DNA test, has been suspicious. The police bring the two of them in for questioning. And shortly after, Jason says he refuses to speak to the authorities again without a lawyer present.

• 51:02Sarah Hagi?

  Jason struggles with the weight of all of this. He's facing accusations from multiple directions. The police, the FBI, a private investigator, and the public are all looking at him skeptically. Jason has been clean from drugs for over a year and was seemingly doing well prior to all of this. But a few weeks after the police investigation launches, the family is rocked by a piece of devastating news. Jason has died from an overdose. Beverly is left heartbroken to grieve both of her sons. And after Jason's death, Nicholas's case gets dropped and his disappearance goes cold one last time. No clear evidence is ever found tying Nicholas's family to his disappearance,

• 51:47Sarah Hagi?

  despite Frederic's insistence. But now, Frederic will finally have to face the music for his own crimes.

• 51:57Sarah Hagi?

  In 1998, Frederic pleads guilty to perjury and obtaining and possessing false documents. The judge sentences him to six years, more than three times what was recommended under the sentencing guidelines. But clearly, jail doesn't teach him anything. For some reason, Frederic has a phone in his prison cell, which he uses to make hundreds of phone calls to the families of missing children all over the world, pretending to have information on where their kids went.

• 52:26Scaachi Koul?

  I don't understand how this man keeps getting away with this shit. This is so crazy.

• 52:31Sarah Hagi?

  What is his obsession?

• 52:32Scaachi Koul?

  I don't know. He is really fixated on giving people fake hope, it seems, not just pretending to be a child.

• 52:40Sarah Hagi?

  It's so evil. After serving six years, Frederic is finally released and sent back to Europe, where he continues his decades-old act over and over again. In May of 2005, a 31-year-old Frederic spends a full month at a youth shelter in southwestern France, where he pretends to be a 16-year-old boy named Francisco Hernandez Fernandez. Also, here's a photo of Frederic from around this time.

• 53:12Scaachi Koul?

  OK, a couple of things. Just one at a time. Michelangelo Martini and Francisco Hernandez Fernandez? Everybody falling for these names needs a lobotomy. Also, this guy's fully bald. He looks like Moby. He looks like an adult. But what I don't get is all of this is happening during the age of at least Bing or Facebook.

• 53:35Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, this is 2005. The internet exists enough for people to be like...

• 53:39Scaachi Koul?

  You have enough internet.

• 53:41Sarah Hagi?

  Well, listen. Soon enough, someone at the shelter does recognize him from a TV show that covered his many lies and crimes. The shelter calls the police, and Frederic gets taken away. When asked about his motive, Frederic repeats the same line he's used for years. He just wants to be loved. On top of making up fake identities, Frederic pretends to be another real child, Leo Ballet, a French boy who'd tragically gone missing nine years earlier. Luckily, a DNA test catches him before he can trick another grieving family, and he gets sentenced to jail once more in late 2005.

• 54:22Sarah Hagi?

  For reasons only Frederic can understand, he finally decides to live as an adult after he's released. Maybe he's learned his lesson, or maybe he's just too old and bald to convince people he's a child. Around 2006, a law student named Isabel reaches out to Frederic. She heard about him on TV, and she really gets him. Sure, he's done some pretty bad things, but she understands his reasons. He just wanted to be loved, and she thinks she can offer him just that. They get married in 2007, after a year of dating. This might be the most severe case of "I can fix him" in human history.

• 55:04Scaachi Koul?

  You know, there's a... There's someone for everyone, apparently, which never ceases to amaze me.

• 55:09Sarah Hagi?

  Frederic and Isabel soon move to a quiet French city where they can escape media attention. They have five kids together, and after all these years, Frederic Bourdin remains a household name in France. Strangers on the street still recognize him as the Chameleon.

• 55:29Sarah Hagi?

  I think this is one of the most upsetting episodes we have ever covered, because really tragic and terrible things happen, but this guy is a cartoon. It's like, how do you keep doing it?

• 55:43Scaachi Koul?

  At a certain point, there's something wrong with you. There's something pathological about you. You need to, like, get help. This is a sick person.

• 55:51Sarah Hagi?

  It's really hard to talk about this, because there was a very tragic thing that happened, but also, at the same time, he is just such a weirdo. First of all, he doesn't look childlike at all. How does this one guy gaslight everyone for so many years into thinking he is a child when he is so clearly a grown-up man?

• 56:14Scaachi Koul?

  I guess the problem is that generally, people want to take other people at their word, and you just can't really do that anymore.

• 56:21Sarah Hagi?

  This, to me, is like suspension of disbelief on a level that I've never experienced in my life.

• 56:28Scaachi Koul?

  The other funny thing about this story is that narratively, in our pop culture so much, like, there is a Law & Order episode that is like almost a scene-for-scene of this story, with a bit of a different ending.

• 56:41Sarah Hagi?

  This is the story for me where like, you know, every once in a while, I feel broken by like how stupid this is. I feel broken not only by how dumb it all is, but that it led to like a family being destroyed. This family had already dealt with so much, and now they're being totally messed with. People are determined to believe what they want because they want to feel comforted in the world, and it does not help them in the long term. I guess the lesson is, don't get sloppy. Be uncomfortable. Maybe the lesson is, do whatever you want. Do whatever you want. Who cares? I don't know that, I don't know. Hold on. You can be whatever you want, and someone will freaking believe you. I don't know that we want to lean into nihilism this far.

• 57:22Sarah Hagi?

  I don't know. Who am I? Who are you? You know? Anyway, thanks for listening.

• 57:31Sarah Hagi?

  And that's jazz. And that's that.

• 57:38Sarah Hagi?

  Follow Scamfluencers on the Audible app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to all episodes of Scamfluencers ad-free by joining Audible.

• 57:48Sarah Hagi?

  This is Frederic Bourdin, No Country For Old Men. I'm Sarah Haggie.

• 57:53Scaachi Koul?

  And I'm Sachi Cole. If you have a tip for us on a story that you think we should cover, please email us at [email protected]. We use many sources in our research. A few that were particularly helpful were The Impostor, a documentary directed by Burt Leighton, The Chameleon by David Grand for The New Yorker, and The Impostor: Interview with the Chameleon by Mick Brown for The Telegraph.

• 58:15Sarah Hagi?

  Gabrielle Jrolay wrote this episode. Additional writing by us, Sachi Cole, and Sarah Haggie. Olivia Bryle and Eric Thurm are our story editors. Back checking by Lexi Peery. Sound design by James Morgan. Our music supervisor is Scott Velazquez for Fries on Sync. Additional audio assistance provided by Augustine Lim. Our managing producer is Desi Blaylock. Our senior managing producer is Callum Cluse. Janine Cornolo and Stephanie Jens are our development producers. Our associate producer is Charlotte Miller. Our producer is Julie McGruder. Our senior producers are Sarah Enney and Ginny Bloom. Our executive producers are Jenny Lauer Beckman, Marshall Louis, and Erin O'Flaherty for Wondery.

• 59:08Speaker 03

  You stepped out for your morning jog. Except it's not your usual morning jog. You started listening to an epic sci-fi book on Audible. Thirty chapters later, you've accidentally run a half marathon. You've lost track of how far you've run, somewhere just past the city limits. You can't stop, you have to find out what happens next. Then it's over. The universe seems bigger. You feel different. You feel... Like you have no idea where you are. Audible: Stories That Speak to You.