BITESIZE | How to Make New Habits Stick & Why You Can’t Break Old Habits | Charles Duhigg #521

Are you constantly trying to create better habits and quit those that don’t serve you? Feel Better Live More Bitesize is my weekly podcast for your mind, body, and heart. Each week I’ll be featuring inspirational stories and practical tips from some of my former guests. Today’s clip is from episode 436 of the podcast with Pulitzer Prize winner and author of international bestselling book, The Power of Habit - Charles Duhigg. We can all make short-term changes, but so many of us struggle to make our new desired behaviours last. In this clip, we discuss the science of small wins, the power of momentum and the importance of keystone habits. This conversation is packed with practical tips to help you build better habits. Thanks to our sponsor https://www.drinkag1.com/livemore Support the podcast and enjoy Ad-Free episodes. Try FREE for 7 days on Apple Podcasts https://apple.co/feelbetterlivemore For other podcast platforms go to https://fblm.supercast.com Show notes and the full podcast are available at drchatterjee.com/436 DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rangan Chatterjee?

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• 0:41Rangan Chatterjee?

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• 1:20Rangan Chatterjee?

  See all details at drinkag1.com/livemore. Welcome to Feel Better, Live More Bite Size, your weekly dose of positivity and optimism to get you ready for the weekend. Today's clip is from episode 436 of the podcast with Charles Duhigg, author of the international bestseller, The Power of Habits. We can all make short-term changes, but so many of us struggle to make our new desired behaviours last. In this clip, we discuss the science of small wins, the power of momentum, and the importance of keystone habits.

• 2:08Rangan Chatterjee?

  You can't extinguish a bad habit because those neural pathways stay in play. That's really, really interesting.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:17Rangan Chatterjee?

  Let's use sugar or chocolate. Let's stay on those because I think they're so common, particularly in my world.

• 2:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:24Rangan Chatterjee?

  You feel a bit low. You get your favorite chocolate bar. You get a big reward, don't you? You feel high, you feel good. You've self-soothed, right? So that's the reward.

• 2:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:38Rangan Chatterjee?

  It's quite tricky to change that though, isn't it? Because once you've locked that in, it's quite hard to change it.

• 2:44Speaker 01

  So what's interesting there is you're craving the self-soothing, right? And once we do the experiments, we figure out what I'm actually craving. What's the reward that my brain wants? So and for anyone, you know this, but for anyone who's listening, who hasn't been exposed to some of these ideas. One of the things that we've learned is that every habit has three components. There's a cue, which is like a trigger for this automatic behavior. And then the behavior itself, and then a reward. Every habit that exists in our life has a reward, whether we're aware of it or not. And once we know that it's self-soothing as opposed to the taste of chocolate or the buzz that chocolate gives me, then then at that point, it's a question of what else also delivers self-soothing. So you, I mentioned some before, calling a friend.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  Calling a friend oftentimes is one of the greatest sources of self-soothing. And so it's worth at that moment saying, instead of picking up the chocolate bar, I'm going to self-soothe because I know that I'm craving that right now by calling a friend. Now, it might be for someone else that actually the taste of the chocolate is what they they really, really enjoy. In which case, we should experiment and they should have a piece of apple, right? That's also sweet to see in a healthier, to see if that satisfies the craving that they're feeling. There's actually some experiments done where they they gave people Splenda and they told them just to rub it on their tongue. And they found that people who crave taste sensations, sugary taste sensations, this will basically satisfy that craving.

• 4:10Rangan Chatterjee?

  Wow.

• 4:11Speaker 01

  And so the thing is to figure out what is actually driving the behavior. For me, when I was writing Power of Habit, I had this bad habit where every afternoon I'd go eat a cookie in the cafeteria of the New York Times where I worked at the time. And I couldn't figure out why. And I talked to these researchers and they said, well, you know, let's look for the cue, right? Like, tell me about when this happens. And I was like, oh, it's usually between 3:15 and 3:45. And they were like, sounds like a time of day is probably your cue. And then we know the behavior. You go up to the 14th floor, you buy a cookie, you eat the cookie. And what happens? What happens then? And I said, well, usually I'll like, go over and like, I'll, you know, I see some friends and I'll sit down and I'll kind of gossip with them for a little bit and I'll eat the cookie. And they said, okay,

• 4:52Speaker 01

  the reward might be the cookie. It might be sugar. It might be the just taking a break from work, but it might also be those friends. So next time you do this at 3:45, whenever you feel the urge, stand up, look for someone to go gossip with it without going up to the cafeteria. Go gossip with them for 15 minutes and then come back to your desk and see if you're still craving that cookie. And the answer was no. The reward for me was this social experience. The cookie was an excuse.

• 5:21Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, I love that. I love that example so much because I honestly believe, I'm not saying this is easy, but I think we're making these things often a lot harder than they need to be. We always think it's the chocolate. Well, what if it isn't? What if it's something else you're getting? You know, as you say, that the social connection, what if it's the act of going to a cafe, interacting with the person and saying hi? Maybe there's someone you like in the cafe who, actually, you know what? Yeah, you tell yourself a story, you're going there for the crisps or the chocolate. And maybe it's just because you're a bit bored at your desk and you like the social interaction.

• 5:59Speaker 01

  Or maybe it's just you need a break from work, right? The 3:45 comes along and you're feeling a little bit low. So like, maybe taking a walk around the block does the same thing. And again, this is why experiments are so important is because if you come up with a list of potential rewards that are alternatives, and you experiment with them, you're going to figure out what's actually driving your behavior. When we're in the grip of a habit, our brain actually powers down, right? This is why habits exist is because every animal on earth has a part of their brain known as the basal ganglia that exists essentially to make habits. And it's because if you don't have habits, you have to decide every time you pass an apple or a rock, which one you ought to eat, right? You have to think about how you walk. So our brain developed the system where when we're in the grip of a habit, we can make a behavior automatic without having to think about it the entire

• 6:44Speaker 01

  time, which means we can think about other things. We can dream up how to build fire or forts or video games. But when our brain turns off in the grip of a habit, we tend to stop paying attention to the cues and the rewards, right? We don't notice, oh, I want ice cream right now because I'm stressed.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  Some part of us knows, but it's very easy to ignore that voice. And when you pull it into the forefront of your brain, when you make yourself start thinking about it again, and someone says, oh, my cue is stress. I usually turn to sugar. Sugar actually does not solve this problem for me. It's a crutch, but there's another behavior that would be healthier and provide the same reward. Then all of a sudden, change becomes so much easier.

• 7:29Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 7:30Speaker 01

  And it doesn't mean that change is easy.

• 7:32Rangan Chatterjee?

  No.

• 7:33Speaker 01

  But it means change is easier. Now, that, so this is for changing behaviors. The other question often is how do we create a new habit? And in that case, it's very similar, but a little bit different in that we need to choose a cue, right? So for me, it was running. I would like, I was never athletic before I started writing The Power of Habit. And I really wanted to get in better shape. And so my goal was I was going to run a half marathon.

• 7:55Rangan Chatterjee?

  Okay.

• 7:55Speaker 01

  So I needed to choose a cue. So what I would do is I'd put my running shoes next to my bed. So I saw them as soon as I woke up and that became a cue for me. And I would, I would run before, before work.

• 8:05Rangan Chatterjee?

  So that's a visual cue.

• 8:07Speaker 01

  I was using a visual cue, also time of day. Also, I would lay out my, my clothes. So it was very easy to get into my running clothes.

• 8:13Rangan Chatterjee?

  Okay.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  And it's good to have more than one cue. One of them's really going to be the powerful one, but you don't know ahead of time what it might be.

• 8:20Rangan Chatterjee?

  Oh, so you're, I like that. So you're peppering in a few cues to see one of these is going to stick.

• 8:25Speaker 01

  One of these is going to stick. One of these is going to stick. And it turns out it was the shoes. Like when I'm traveling, if I put my shoes next, my running shoes next to my bed, that gets me just, that gets me going like. And then I needed to choose a reward for myself. So instead, I didn't run every day. Instead, I only ran on days when my wife was going to bring the kids to school that day. So that I knew that when I got home from the run, I could take a nice long shower. I could have a nice smoothie with breakfast.

• 8:50Rangan Chatterjee?

  So did you intentionally think about the shower and smoothie as rewards?

• 8:54Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 8:55Rangan Chatterjee?

  So it wasn't just, oh, I'm sweaty after the run. I need to shower. It's like, I'm going to be sweaty and I'm going to really enjoy that shower.

• 9:02Speaker 01

  That's, I'm going to take, I'm going to give myself an extra three minute. Like normally I'd rush through the shower. I'm going to let myself enjoy the shower.

• 9:08Rangan Chatterjee?

  And this really makes a difference, doesn't it?

• 9:09Speaker 01

  Makes a huge difference because if we decide something is rewarding, it becomes more rewarding.

• 9:14Rangan Chatterjee?

  You can think of stress a little bit like this, can't you? You know, it's how we perceive things that often determine whether they're stressful or not. If we perceive it as stressful, it is. If we don't, a lot of the time it ain't.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  No, that's exactly. And if you think about it, like you and I and our children, they did not, they were not born thinking that getting an A on a report card is something they should feel good about, right? They only feel good about it because we've told them, you should feel really good about this. We constantly tell ourselves what we should find rewarding. And when we grab a hold of that and we take the power for ourself. Now, here's the one other thing with this, with starting a new habit. So the first day that I woke up, I saw my shoes next to my bed, never run before. I put on my clothes. I walked outside and I walked for one block and I came back and then I took the nice long shower. And then the next day I walked like two blocks. And after a while, you get to this point where you're like, okay, I'm walking a couple of blocks.

• 10:10Speaker 01

  I might as well like jog a couple of blocks and I might as well run, you know, like half a mile. There's this thing known as the science of small wins. And oftentimes the way that we change is nonlinear, right? We find something that's unexpected that makes it easier for us to change. We find a reward that we didn't anticipate. It's these little experiments. And when we see change as a series of shifts and it's okay for those shifts to be small, then what we're doing is we're freeing ourself to learn from ourself, to learn from our patterns. And so that's how I ended up running a half marathon and then a marathon, was literally just by taking it as these small, little incremental improvements.

• 10:53Rangan Chatterjee?

  Well, first of all, congratulations.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 10:55Rangan Chatterjee?

  Wonderful achievements. I love this idea about small wins.

• 11:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:04Rangan Chatterjee?

  It's, it's really interesting. I have found through years of clinical practice that the best way to help a patient turn a new behavior into a long-term habit is to start small. I'd just seen it through trial and error. I thought when they make it really big. It kind of happens for two or three weeks and then it falls off.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:25Rangan Chatterjee?

  Whereas when I start small and, and once I honestly made a trade with a patient, I say a trade, an agreement that she would meditate for one minute a day.

• 11:35Rangan Chatterjee?

  And that one minute became five, it became 10, it became 15 over a course of four to six weeks. Cause initially she was like, I don't have time. I said, okay, do you have 10 minutes? No. So do you have five minutes? Well, no. Do you have one minute? Yeah, I've got one minute. I said, all right, okay, let's start there. And it was only when I met Professor BJ Fogg and he shared with me some of the science on small wins. And we had this, this awesome aha moment where we both figured out that he'd come to that conclusion from the clinical research. I came to that conclusion from real life clinical practice.

• 12:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:11Rangan Chatterjee?

  And trying to figure out what works. But these small changes, when done consistently, they help to build momentum.

• 12:19Speaker 01

  That's exactly right.

• 12:21Rangan Chatterjee?

  And so I wonder, from your perspective, you know, what is momentum? Is there any science behind momentum? Cause it feels to be this really powerful energetic force that if we can harness it, it kind of moves us in the right direction.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  I, and here's how I think about it. I think of it as we are convincing ourself to believe in another version of ourself. So there's this idea known as keystone habits, that some habits are more powerful than others, because when they, when we build a new habit, it triggers a bunch of other changes in our life.

• 12:53Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  For some people, exercise is a great example, right? And, and probably everyone who's listening has had this experience. You exercise in the morning and for some reason you also eat healthier that day, right? Like it's easier to like eat a salad rather than the hamburger when you walk into the cafeteria.

• 13:08Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 13:09Speaker 01

  We also know that when you exercise, other things happen. You procrastinate less. You tend to use your credit cards less often on the day that you exercise.

• 13:16Rangan Chatterjee?

  Wow.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  We're not aware of that. But I think what's happening is that for many people, exercise is a keystone habit. It changes other patterns, like eating patterns and spending patterns. Because even if I think of myself as someone who's disciplined, there's a part of my brain that isn't listening to what I tell myself until I prove it to myself. And so I might know that meditation is great. I might say like, of course, I've read all the studies. Meditation is so good. I should definitely do that. But until I prove to myself that I can meditate and that there is some reward that it's giving me something.

• 13:48Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  My brain basically thinks I'm a liar, right? It's very skeptical until I prove it. And that's, this is what keystone habits do. They change how we see ourself. We start thinking, I'm the kind of person who runs in the morning. And the kind of person who runs in the morning, they eat a salad for lunch, right? They don't pull out their credit card for anything. They, they make wiser decisions. I'm the kind of person who meditates in the morning. And that kind of person, that's someone who can find five or 10 minutes, right? They're, they're mindful.

• 14:18Rangan Chatterjee?

  What's one of your keystone habits?

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Exercise. Exercise is a big one for me. And what's interesting is for people who were not athletes, the reason why exercise is so powerful as a keystone habit for some people is because it, if you weren't an athlete and you start running or you start exercising, it forces you to think of yourself as a new kind of person. It forces you to see yourself in a new light. Now, for people who were athletes as kids, and then they take some time away and then they start running again, oftentimes exercise is less of a keystone habit for them because, because it just conforms to their mental image of themselves. But for me, exercise is a huge part of it, going to bed. I, I'm someone who used to stay up till midnight, you know, every, and like my wife.

• 15:00Rangan Chatterjee?

  You're a writer, hey?

• 15:01Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly.

• 15:02Rangan Chatterjee?

  So writers do.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  Right, I'm supposed to. And my wife goes to bed at like nine or nine 15. And so, and so I go to bed at nine 30 with her. And that's a keystone habit for me. Like it, it makes me feel like I'm in control of my, I am making good choices. I'm setting up the next day for success by going to bed early. And again, it's the story that we tell ourselves, right? Stories are so powerful. We start to tell ourselves a story about ourselves.

• 15:29Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 15:29Speaker 01

  And that's, that's how change happens.

• 15:32Rangan Chatterjee?

  Let's say someone has just heard that and is thinking about a keystone habit for themselves. I'm thinking, because I would agree. I think it's an excellent thing to pay attention to, which is that one habit that when you do it, automatically means that these next five things are going to be better.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 15:51Rangan Chatterjee?

  Always been thinking about that with my patients. It's trying to figure out, you could tell them 10 different things, but what's the one big one that when they get that right, those other things are going to happen automatically?

• 16:02Speaker 01

  Right, all on their own.

• 16:03Rangan Chatterjee?

  For me, it is my morning routine, right? When I do it, even if it's a cut down 10, 15 minute version of it, I'm basically showing myself, yeah, you know what? It doesn't matter how busy the world is or how much stuff you have to do with the kids or for your mom or your wife. You know what? I still made time for myself.

• 16:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:22Rangan Chatterjee?

  I'm worth it.

• 16:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:23Rangan Chatterjee?

  Right? I can rely on me. I can trust myself to say I'm going to do it and follow through.

• 16:29Speaker 01

  Oh, that's so wonderful. That is such a, like such a wonderful way of putting that reward. And that, I'm sure that makes it more rewarding.

• 16:35Rangan Chatterjee?

  I think it does. And I always, I'm keen to emphasize that I've been working on this for many years now. Because I don't want anyone to listen to this conversation and then suddenly go, wow, I need to try and do Dr. Shashi's 45 minute routine straight away. It's like, hey, I was rubbish for a few years. I'd do it for a bit, I'd fall off. I just realized more and more that, oh, when I do it, I'm a better human in every aspect of my life. I'm a more patient husband.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:03Rangan Chatterjee?

  I'm more present with my kids. I'm calm, I'm more productive. Do you know what I mean?

• 17:06Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 17:07Rangan Chatterjee?

  So for me, that's, that's one of my keystone habits. But a lot of people find this stuff uncomfortable, right? So I wonder, Charles, what would you would say to someone who goes, okay, I know what I want to do.

• 17:20Rangan Chatterjee?

  Am I going to find it hard forever? Or is it just going to be hard for a few weeks? At some point, will it no longer feel hard? And it will become automatic? You know, how would you help them think about that?

• 17:33Speaker 01

  So I'd say two things. Number one is trying to figure out what your keystone habit ought to be. One way that you can do that is ask yourself, what kind of change seems irrationally frightening to me? Right? Like when I, before I became a runner, when I thought of running, it was a little, like, I was like, I'm going to look terrible in those like spandex, right? Like, I look so goofy when I'm running, like. So it was irrationally scary. That's a sign that this kind of change is, will be meaningful to you. It's going to change how you see yourself. Then the second part of your question, which is, will it be hard forever? The wonderful thing is, again, and back to the basal ganglia, there's a part of our brain that literally exists to make that pattern easier and easier and easier.

• 18:15Speaker 01

  So is it going to be really easy on day three? No, but it's going to be easier than it was on day one. And by the time you hit day 21, or you hit day 30, or day 45, at some point, it's going to become a habit. You won't even think about it anymore.

• 18:31Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 18:32Speaker 01

  You'll just do it automatically. You'll, you know, you'll put on your lace up your shoes, go out for a run, and you'll be looking forward to the podcast that you're listening to. And it won't even occur to you to think about like, oh, this is hard.

• 18:42Rangan Chatterjee?

  It's like brushing teeth, right?

• 18:43Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 18:43Rangan Chatterjee?

  Brushing teeth was not a habit when you were three or four, or even five years old. I mean, my kids are a bit older now. Sometimes I'm not even convinced it's a habit yet.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:55Rangan Chatterjee?

  Right? So, but I think, I hope for most people listening, it is now a habit. Right? So at some point, it does change.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  And like, I get out of the shower now, and even if my teeth are clean, I have to brush my teeth. I don't feel clean unless I brush my, unless I have that minty feeling in my mouth.

• 19:11Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 19:11Speaker 01

  You're exactly right. Our brains exist to create as many habits as it possibly can. It wants to conserve all the cognitive energy it can by making these behaviors automatic. If you have consistent cues and rewards, if you're paying attention to those cues and rewards, then each day it will get a little bit easier, almost imperceptibly easier. But on day two, it'll be easier than day one. And on day 21, it's going to be easier than it was on day two. And at some point, your brain takes over and it just becomes a habit.

• 19:44Rangan Chatterjee?

  Hope you enjoyed that bite-sized clip. Do spread the love by sharing this episode with your friends and family. And if you want more, why not go back and listen to the original full conversation with my guest. If you enjoyed this episode, I think you will really enjoy my bite-sized Friday email. It's called the Friday Five, and each week I share things that I do not share on social media. It contains five short doses of positivity, articles of books that I'm reading, quotes that I'm thinking about, exciting research I've come across, and so much more. I really think you're gonna love it. The goal is for it to be a small, yet powerful dose of feel-good to get you

• 20:24Rangan Chatterjee?

  ready for the weekend. You can sign up for it free of charge at drchatgy.com/fridayfive. Hope you have a wonderful weekend. Make sure you have pressed subscribe, and I'll be back next week with my long-form conversation on Wednesday, and the latest episode of Bite Science next Friday.