Sophie Ellis-Bextor: “I’m a healthy amount of delusional!” How to sustain career success

How loud are the voices in your head that tell you you’re definitely going to screw up that big opportunity? Sophie Ellis-Bextor is trying to make a point of talking to herself more kindly. In this chat, Fearne and Sophie talk about reminding yourself that your thoughts aren’t facts; sometimes you have to override the voice that says you’re not good enough and just get on with it to prove yourself wrong. Sophie explains why being dropped by her label at 20 encouraged her to take responsibility for her own career, and offers advice on how not to get distracted by what other people are doing with their lives. What should you tell yourself when you think you’re going to give up on a passion? They also chat about not worrying where an opportunity will lead you, instead enjoying it as an adventure in its own right. Plus, why was Sophie petrified her BAFTA performance would be awful? Sophie has announced her biggest ever UK headline tour in May and June 2025! If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Natasha Bedingfield https://pod.fo/e/21ebf2 Perrie Edwards https://pod.fo/e/279633 Paloma Faith https://pod.fo/e/245bab Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To mark it, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:28Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, I'm Fern Cotton and this is Happy Place, the show that makes sure you're speaking to yourself kindly. Today, I'm chatting to Sophie Ellis-Bextor.

• 0:38Speaker 02

  In the morning of the day that I was doing the BAFTAs, I woke up and I thought, I am not in the right headspace and I'm not going to do it right tonight. I'd thought it through so much to the point where I pictured myself at the after-party and people not being sure if they should come over and say something reassuring or not. And then we got to the bit where I was all dolled up and Greg Williams takes one of those lovely black and white photos and I was like, this is me just before I screw it up. And I got up on stage and murder started and I felt this wave of nausea and in my head I went, will you get over yourself?

• 1:11Fearne Cotton?

  I hope everyone's well and good. By the way, how are we still in January? What's going, why is January going on for a year? Why is it so slow? I don't understand. Now, I'm excited to talk to today's guest, Sophie, for many reasons and one of them is my current state of mind, which is just general overwhelm. It's January's a lot, as we all know, but also I'm in one of those states where everything's just slightly, I'm dropping balls is what I'm doing, okay? Left, right and centre. I'm forgetting things that the kids are meant to take to school. I'm a bit all over the shop. There's a hell of a lot of laundry that I've not got around to doing. My head feels like it's sort of generally exploding left, right and centre.

• 1:54Fearne Cotton?

  And I'm not doing dry jan because of that, okay? I'm enjoying the odd little Negroni here and there just to, just to get me through it. And I think the main theme of this episode is to not beat yourself up and to talk to yourself nicely. So I will be continuing to enjoy those Negronis infrequently as a little treat, a little reward at the end of each day. But I am going to siphon wisdom from today's guest like you've never seen before because she is, quite frankly, superwoman.

• 2:26Fearne Cotton?

  So let's talk more about Sophie. She needs no introduction. She's the glittering disco pop woman of our dreams. Her musical career spans more than 25 years and of course she's made everyone's lockdowns infinitely more sparkly with her live kitchen discos, which I loved on Instagram, which have since turned into an album, a tour and a BBC Radio 2 show. So as I said, we're going to chat about talking to yourself more kindly, which I think we all need to do, you know, every single one of us. I'm not sure many of us have nailed that one. Also, the interesting subject of being a little bit delusional to push yourself towards success, which definitely resonates for me. I think I've got to be constantly delusional to think I still stand a chance of being in this career.

• 3:09Fearne Cotton?

  I think it could be quite helpful. Also, the constant chasing your tail that comes with parenting because Sophie has five sons. That's insane. Five sons. And this is a big one for me. Anxiety dreams and superstitions. Superstitions can rule the show for me at times. So it was really good to hear how Sophie breaks that one.

• 3:36Speaker 03

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• 4:17Speaker 04

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• 4:47Speaker 05

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• 5:20Fearne Cotton?

  Okay, here we go. This is the show. We begin with a little behind the scenes insight into how it works here in the studio.

• 5:48Speaker 02

  Do they always leave you alone?

• 5:49Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 5:49Speaker 02

  Quite nice of them.

• 5:50Fearne Cotton?

  I don't want anyone in here.

• 5:51Speaker 02

  No, that's nice.

• 5:51Fearne Cotton?

  It's intimate.

• 5:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:53Fearne Cotton?

  Sophie, it's so lovely to see you.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  You too.

• 5:56Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, we're not having, no camera people, no one sat around because at the end of the day, we are just simply having a chat.

• 6:02Speaker 02

  We are, and it sets me up to feel like this is gonna probably, I don't know. Do people often cry?

• 6:09Fearne Cotton?

  Sometimes. There's no pressure to cry. I can bring in some tissues if you want.

• 6:14Speaker 02

  Let's see where we go.

• 6:15Fearne Cotton?

  We'll see where we go. And that's the beauty of it, is just, you know, you do podcasts, you know what it's like. We'll just meander. And obviously, it's an interesting one when I get to interview someone that I know because it's not... Not like I'm starting from scratch and having to delve into lots of different interviews. Because I've met you a ton of times over the years. And I was actually thinking back, I really clearly remember meeting you, or at least seeing you for the first time.

• 6:39Speaker 02

  Really?

• 6:39Fearne Cotton?

  When I was hosting Top of the Pops, it's probably like 2001, around that time.

• 6:44Speaker 02

  Sounds a bit right.

• 6:45Fearne Cotton?

  And I remember you stood to the right on a stage, you had a gorgeous little mini dress on. And I was just like, why is she so cool? She's the coolest person I've ever seen. And obviously it was when you were like blowing up, everything, you were just everywhere at that point.

• 7:00Speaker 02

  This would have been Groove Jet's era.

• 7:02Fearne Cotton?

  Groove Jet, it was 100% Groove Jet. And that song was, I mean, it's lived on, but it was everywhere around that time.

• 7:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was a pretty insane chapter. But also, it's interesting, it was your perception of me, because I think cool would probably be the last thing I was feeling on the inside. But yeah, it was, do you know what? It was pretty magical because the preamble to that, as I'd actually been in a band before that had broken up. I'd been, you know, signed at 18, dropped by 20. So Groove Jet is always, will always be the song that changed my life. Not just because of its commercial success, but also because it took me into different genres of music and gave me a sense of adventure, which I've never lost since then. I like doing things that slightly take me out of my comfort zone. But obviously it also gave me back my day job. I didn't really have a plan B, so when my band had got dropped, I was like, I actually don't know what else I can do.

• 7:53Speaker 02

  So Groove Jet gave me back the thing I loved.

• 7:55Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, at that point, did you think, oh my God, if I've only had two years in this career and I've already been dropped, there's no point doing this. What is the point of me trying again?

• 8:04Speaker 02

  A sensible person would probably think like that, yes. But honestly, I just didn't have anything else that made me feel the way that singing did or does. And so I thought, you know, I had a sort of bit of talking to myself moment, really. I thought, right, from here on in, I cannot blame anything that happens to me on anybody else. I have to be responsible for what happens to me. Because it's very easy to go, oh, the band got dropped because of X, Y, Z. And if so and so had only done this, or if our A and R man had done that, or so and so in the band had done that. And I thought, I don't want that. That's, that's gonna just make me a bitter musician. I'm sure we both know a few of those.

• 8:43Fearne Cotton?

  Uh, yeah.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I thought, I also want to, if I'm, if I'm gonna be in this, I have to be in it for good or bad weather. And I can't just be a singer that only wants to be a singer when everybody's going, here you are. Step this way, here's your record deal. Because everything had come very easy to me with my first band. So I thought, okay, this is where you really prove if you love it. Because you'll do it even if it's not going that well. So that was really the choice I'd made at that point.

• 9:08Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, you're the only one, and I'm saying this because I'm sure many people out there who do creative jobs especially, get to that point of, shall I give up? And, and, you know, you'll only reach that point if you're willing to let it all go. But I think it's really interesting, thinking of that first lesson that you learned so early in being accountable and thinking, I can't blame anyone else.

• 9:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:29Fearne Cotton?

  It's such an important one, but it's so hard to get to grips with that lesson. Because it is the easier thing to go, is that, that person's fault? Or, or I'm just an unlucky person. Or, you know, we've all got these, you know, habits that we fall into mentally of putting the blame on other people or other situations. It's really hard to take a look at ourselves and go, okay, well, it's because, well, I can only be accountable for myself. I didn't do this right, or maybe I could try this differently next time. But it's a fine line between that and then actually beating yourself up and going, I'm a piece of shit. I'm not good enough. How do you stop yourself falling into that category?

• 10:08Speaker 02

  Uh, I think you're right, and I think sometimes you just do that anyway. I think that's quite a default setting. In fact, it's probably only been in the last five years that I've started to pay attention more to how I speak to myself like that. I think I did do a lot of, I'm an idiot, I'm stupid. I think I've done it as a default setting for a long time. But the bigger picture with the music stuff was just that I really, I really loved it. I have lots of friends that work in creative jobs and I'm attracted to people who are optimistic, open to opportunities, you know, fun to be around, just a sense of what might be about them. And I just thought I'd rather be in that club than sitting around going, oh, if only that had happened, then things would be different.

• 10:53Speaker 02

  You know, for every time you ever feel like, and trust me, there's been lots of points in my career where I think this would probably be where other people might give up at this point. I just always wanted to be someone that was optimistic about my future, but also for every time you think, oh, maybe I should have got this, that and the other opportunity, you can always flip it and say, maybe I've already got further than that, or maybe I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be. And I think if you work in an industry like ours where you look left and right of you and there's all sorts of people doing it all kinds of ways, there's not really a set path. You've got to have whatever makes you feel at peace with where you find yourself. So you can sleep well at night, feel good about it and feel enthused. It's supposed to make you feel good ultimately, I think.

• 11:34Fearne Cotton?

  It is, but like you say, there's so many distractions of people who you could say, oh, they're more successful than me or they're doing something shinier over here. It's really hard to not compare yourself. And I think also in those moments that you just described where, you know, I've had it millions of times. So I thought, fuck this, I'm out, I can't do it anymore. Or things are just going too badly and I don't want to feel mortified or lesser than I do already. To not give up, you do have to have this baseline of resilience or at least the determination to try again and find a bit of inner strength somewhere. And that might sound like I'm being a bit dramatic, but I think when you're in the public eye.

• 12:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:10Fearne Cotton?

  Or in a job where it's public facing and there's lots of opinion, you do have to have this certain amount of resilience to put yourself back out there again. It's quite draining to keep putting yourself back out there and trying again. And if there's failure, it's very public, it's not a very nice feeling. Would you say you're naturally resilient or that's something you've had to just throw yourself into and work at?

• 12:31Speaker 02

  I think I'm, I am quite resilient, I think, but also I think I'm in a healthy amount of delusional as well. Because I always.

• 12:38Fearne Cotton?

  It does help, doesn't it? In this industry.

• 12:40Speaker 02

  Because I always.

• 12:41Fearne Cotton?

  Be a little bit delusional and you'll go very far.

• 12:43Speaker 02

  Honestly, I think it's a really good ingredient because you think, but the maybe, the might be, the what if? And I remember, um, I mean, it was horrible being dropped when I was 20, but look, at least I was at the beginning, you know, I was young. But when I had my fourth album coming out and Universal again said, this is the, I keep, I go back for more, but.

• 13:04Fearne Cotton?

  Like a terrible ex-boyfriend.

• 13:06Speaker 02

  Hello, should we try it again? But, uh, yeah, when they, when I got dropped around my fourth album, which felt really different, I was in a different situation. But that one was this feeling of like, I am the only one pushing the boulder here. There, there's moments where I've thought, if I say, okay, I'm done, I'm going to go do something else. People might say, it might be like three people who are like, oh, we quite liked your last album. Everybody else will go, okay, fair enough, understood. So that's sort of something to hang my hope on. I can be a very simplistic creature and if there's a couple of things in the diary, I'll be like, fine, that's it then. I will head towards those things and I'll work hard and go from the ground up. I think annoyingly, I think they are like the making of you in the end.

• 13:49Speaker 02

  It's annoying to say that because they're horrible to go through, but I always think I would have been so ghastly if my first band had just worked and that had been. You know, if I was like this sort of bulletproof, I would have been horrendous to be around.

• 14:01Fearne Cotton?

  Well, I think, you know, people don't realise how hard it is to sustain a career in music, especially in this day and age. I believe it's harder because it's an oversaturated market. You don't really make any money from selling records. You need to have a big tour and other things in the mix to ensure, you know, Kate Nash has been talking about this brilliantly and eloquently.

• 14:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, she's good.

• 14:20Fearne Cotton?

  Very recently, that it's really hard for those artists that either had big success and then things have petered off or that mid-level artist, you know, let alone ones that are just starting out. It's really, really hard.

• 14:32Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 14:32Fearne Cotton?

  Not only to break in, but to keep it. And you've sustained a career now over two decades. I mean, that is a bloody long time and it's, and it's hard, but it's hard graft. And I think when people can dip in and out of your career and see, they don't even see the peaks and troughs. Like, oh, she's releasing an album or, oh, she's doing promo. Now, it's easy to think, oh, it's all right for her. She's just sort of jogging along. But of course, there are these moments where, like you say, there's, there's a couple of little things that you can hook into and hope for the best. And, and you do just hope that, you know, I've certainly had that in my career. You just hope that things,

• 15:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:04Fearne Cotton?

  pick up momentum and that you can carry on. But it's really hard to sustain it.

• 15:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I've, I think, you know, most, most years, I start with a bit of a blank, a question mark of like, what will, hold, what it'll look like. And you have to have a bit of, a bit of faith that you'll end up busy. I love being busy. I love, I love having lots of things going on. And, yeah, I suppose, you know what, I think, you know, you get bits of advice, don't you, at key moments? I think when I was making my first record, um, one of the people I wrote with Alex James from Blur. And obviously, he was a very experienced musician already at that point. And he said, hardly anyone's career is a straight upward trajectory. For most people, it's peaks and troughs, peaks and troughs. And I think I was like, right, that sounds smart. And, and I believe that too. And I think that's held me. There's a reassuring cycle to what goes on.

• 15:53Speaker 02

  And so when the wind is in the right direction and things have got momentum and do feel good, I'm pretty good at appreciating it and seeing it with, like, in quite a sober way, because I don't get too giddy with it, but at the same time, really enjoying it, because I think I can really see it for what it is. And, you know, this last year has been a good example of that, because I had lots of adventures. And I just thought, I'm not going to worry about how, where this leads me. I'm just going to really enjoy the moment of it, because otherwise, what is the point? Like, where, where do I think this is leading? You know, there's that sort of Jacob's ladder impression of like, just keep going up another rung. There's always another rung.

• 16:27Fearne Cotton?

  Of course.

• 16:28Speaker 02

  Just enjoy it.

• 16:29Fearne Cotton?

  Just enjoy it and, and lean into those bits that feel really good. And I mean, you've had like the most incredible, well, not just year, you know, it started before that, even you doing your kitchen discos, which were just so entertaining for everybody. And again, brought you this whole other area of your career. I'm sure you weren't even planning on it. It just sort of all unfurled, let alone then Saltburn turning up and

• 16:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:51Fearne Cotton?

  this whole new lease of life for Murder on the Dance Floor with new generations, learning about your whole back catalogue and who you are. I mean, I'm sure that was just an extraordinary thing to go through.

• 17:01Speaker 02

  So bonkers. I think I'm still processing it a little bit, because it's only really been the last 12, 13 months or so that that's happened with Murder. Um, and you're right, the kitchen disco thing was really. You know what, I think that was an extraordinary thing. I mean, you know, we were doing these lockdown discos at a time when I wasn't seeing anybody else. But what that was about wasn't because I sing for my day job, it's because I, music makes me feel better. It's just always been a tonic for me. And also I missed people and connection. So having this Friday night point of, you know, reference as a community, getting together, being a bit silly, at a time when the news was heavy, just made my soul feel topped up.

• 17:42Speaker 02

  Um, so everything that came out of that felt very pure, but also connected me with what I love about music and making music. And, you know, if I I spent some of last year making a new album, writing songs, it's like the jammiest way to spend a day. You go into a studio. Right, what should we write about today? And I'm just trying to chase that feeling that makes me wanna bop about. And I mean, in a way, it's like being like a teenager again. It's what takes you back to this quite pure little kernel of yourself. And yeah, all, all these things are sort of, have, have, have cross pollinated and influenced each other. So that with what happened with murder, I was really at a good point to just really seize that.

• 18:20Speaker 02

  And it made me very busy. It was quite tricky being away quite a lot. But I said to the kids, I've worked really hard and now I get to have all these opportunities I never thought I'd had. So I'm just gonna run with it and I'll involve you where I can. And actually, they were, they were really good about it. Hopefully, we experienced it as a family, not just me. Well, we definitely did, actually.

• 18:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, you can see, obviously, Kitchen Disco, your kids are running around. That was all part of the joy of it was, you know, because I was sort of sat at home and I would always tune in and watch. And I, I was the sort of person that although I was luckily able to keep working throughout the lockdowns, I went into absolute hermit mode of like, I can't be bothered to even do like a picture on Instagram. I'm just like not wearing any makeup. And I was just sort of hiding. And I'd tune in and go, oh my God, you've got like a cape on and you've managed to like rig cameras and how has she had the energy to do this? And it was actually quite motivating for me to see you doing that with your kids running around as well. And I think, I mean, I love looking at your Instagram anyway, and the fact that it, it does feel like a big family adventure that, you know, you're going to New York, you might be able

• 19:24Fearne Cotton?

  Take one of your kids or somewhere else you're going on tour and there is of course this sort of insane obsession with how you're juggling it that I'm sure your husband doesn't get quizzed on anywhere near as much as you do, which is

• 19:38Speaker 02

  He does not.

• 19:38Fearne Cotton?

  A sign of many things, yeah, all ever. But I think, you know, rightly so, you've got five boys and a home and that in itself is insane. And then you've got this just unbelievably bonkers job where every day is different and you're travelling a hell of a lot and you've got tours or you need the brain space to be creative. I mean, it's a sort of basic question, but is there overwhelm constantly for you?

• 20:07Speaker 02

  No, it comes and goes, but yeah, I definitely reach those moments. And I'd say first and foremost, I have really good support. You know, obviously, Richard and I, we're doing a lot of it together with the kitchen discos when you were saying with Reagan County, it really was just like him, he got really into the technical side of it. I was the one finding, like rummaging through dressing up boxes, looking for sparkly things. And then, yeah, I definitely, last year did sometimes make me feel that thing where you're spread very thin and I hate that feeling where you feel like you're just, you're sort of doing one thing and then there's another thing, another thing and you're sort of like, okay, have we got that moment? Oh, did you have a birthday? Right, okay, here's a balloon. A birthday present, right. I hate that feeling.

• 20:47Fearne Cotton?

  Here's a balloon.

• 20:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. Here's a balloon. Did I do that right? Yeah. Hat, oh, wrong child. Sorry, it's you. Okay, bye. I can't stand that feeling where you feel like you're just trying to

• 21:00Fearne Cotton?

  Yes. I had that even this morning.

• 21:03Speaker 02

  It's horrible.

• 21:04Fearne Cotton?

  This morning was one of the, and that's what I think about you, when you've got five of them. And I was like, okay, so I was trying to work out which, which sports kit was which kids and who was wearing a uniform in and who was wearing a sports kit. And wait a minute, who did they charge their tablet they need and, and everything just felt, I was going through these little five minute segments of the morning and then, oh my God, I need to put makeup on because I'm doing a podcast today and have I got my notebook and everything was just this tightly wad sequence of events that felt like I just had to get To the end of it. Sometimes I do whole days like that where it's just getting to the end of the day and then still, still you forget it's not uniform day or you didn't sign a form so they can go on the school trip. It's so, I mean, to do that with five kids, I don't even know how you do it.

• 21:49Speaker 02

  Admin can be really, yeah, it's a lot and WhatsApps.

• 21:52Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, the parents WhatsApps.

• 21:53Speaker 02

  The parents WhatsApps.

• 21:54Fearne Cotton?

  I, I can't. Are you a, do you engage with?

• 21:58Speaker 02

  No.

• 22:01Fearne Cotton?

  No, eject.

• 22:02Speaker 02

  No, no, I do not. I appreciate some of the information that's shared and a lot of other stuff I just moan about.

• 22:08Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, they're saying the same. I like it when it's reminding me of things that I didn't even know were happening. And I'm like, oh, thank God I read that because I did not know there was a rugby match or whatever. But it's the stuff where it's just like, is this someone's black sock? Please can we not do this on the WhatsApp? Or, or even worse, when it's things that are happening in the local area that I don't give a shit about, that I don't need to know about on the WhatsApp thing. It's like, I'm just speeding through it. Do I need to retain any of this information? It's so, it's relentless. It pings all day. You've got, have you got five WhatsApp groups for your kids?

• 22:41Speaker 02

  Well, my eldest is now going to be 21 in April.

• 22:43Fearne Cotton?

  No, he's not.

• 22:44Speaker 02

  Yes, he is. So I no longer have a WhatsApp for my eldest.

• 22:47Fearne Cotton?

  Do you know, I remember him coming into Radio One.

• 22:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:49Fearne Cotton?

  When I was on Radio One and he would have been about four.

• 22:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, that sounds about right.

• 22:54Fearne Cotton?

  Or five and you brought him in. He's going to be 21.

• 22:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, in April, yeah. I know an actual adult person.

• 23:00Fearne Cotton?

  A man, a man. Shit. Okay. So you know WhatsApp for him. He's doing his, he's living his life. Okay. But four others?

• 23:06Speaker 02

  Four others, yeah.

• 23:07Fearne Cotton?

  Wow.

• 23:07Speaker 02

  I think there was a couple for one of them as well. I don't know why. But then sometimes I really, I have done a lot of this to myself. I'm not very good at delegating. And I think because I have a job that takes me out the house and is quite self-centred. I like the fact that I know what's going on in their world and I would find it very hard. To delegate that. So I think there's a part of me that is, has invited some of this into my life, because there definitely could be ways I could spread it out, or even getting the kids to do more to contribute. My, my, my next one down is going to be sixteen soon, but I've sort of made a lot of it my, my problem, I think.

• 23:46Fearne Cotton?

  But you want to be the kind of mum that's engaged in your kids' lives and that's, and that means that something has to give and it's probably your sanity.

• 23:53Speaker 02

  That and sleep.

• 23:54Fearne Cotton?

  And sleep.

• 23:55Speaker 02

  Oh, sleep. I miss you, sleep. I was really, I am really good at that when I get a chance. If I'm on a tour bus.

• 24:01Fearne Cotton?

  Really?

• 24:02Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 24:02Fearne Cotton?

  You're out like a light.

• 24:03Speaker 02

  I can do a proper wake up at, you know, ten, ten thirty, eleven.

• 24:07Fearne Cotton?

  See, I can't lie in anymore. It's just, I've just stopped being able to. My body just, even if I went to bed at three, I'll wake up at six. Yeah, like I'm not even joking around. Yeah, New Year's Day, went to bed at half one, really late for me. Six, why am I awake? Why? I could have a lie in, my kids are still asleep. I was up three hours before the kids.

• 24:24Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 24:25Fearne Cotton?

  Why?

• 24:25Speaker 02

  That would not be me. I don't think.

• 24:27Fearne Cotton?

  I can't do it. So what's stopping you from sleeping? Other children?

• 24:30Speaker 02

  The kids and then I put them off there in bed and my kids go to bed relatively late. They just really love finding the different things that need to happen at bedtime.

• 24:38Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 24:38Speaker 02

  Uh, which I relate to, I'm quite like that too. And then I'll be like, right, what can I do that I didn't have time for during the day?

• 24:44Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, so you're now, you're catching up when they're asleep?

• 24:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I do bits and bobs. And at the moment, I'm in a bit of a mad sorting out phase.

• 24:52Fearne Cotton?

  What, house cleaning?

• 24:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm loving it. Drawers and cupboards. I'm so happy. I'm so happy.

• 24:58Fearne Cotton?

  Best thing ever. It's my favourite hobby.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  I love it so much. I could do it. If you gave me next week off, that's what I'd do all week.

• 25:04Fearne Cotton?

  Same. I would, if I stopped doing this job, I would professionally do that.

• 25:08Speaker 02

  One of my kids wants to do that.

• 25:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I would do it.

• 25:10Speaker 02

  He's disappointed with the way we live.

• 25:15Fearne Cotton?

  That's so great.

• 25:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's just, like, it's constantly messy, he says. I said, it's not. There's spaces to do stuff. It's fine.

• 25:22Fearne Cotton?

  There's seven of you for crying out loud.

• 25:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:24Fearne Cotton?

  It's a lot of stuff.

• 25:29Speaker 03

  Hi folks, this is Mark Bittman from the podcast Food with Mark Bittman. And I'm here to suggest that you host Thanksgiving with industry-leading quality standards from Whole Foods Market. There are, as usual, no antibiotics ever in their meat department, so carve up turkey and spiral cut ham with peace of mind. Shop organic sides like stuffing mix and cranberry sauce from 365 brand. And guess what? All of their fabulous, delectable pies are made with no high fructose corn syrup. Where else are you going to find that? Gourmet Thanksgiving flavors with the quality you want, only at Whole Foods Market.

• 26:10Speaker 04

  This message is brought to you by the Capital One Venture X Card. Venture X offers the premium benefits you expect, like a $300 annual Capital One travel credit for less than you expect. Elevate your earn with unlimited double miles on every purchase, bringing you one step closer to your next dream destination. Plus, enjoy access to over 1,000 airport lounges worldwide. The Capital One Venture X Card. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. Lounge access is subject to change. See CapitalOne.com for details.

• 26:40Speaker 05

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• 27:10Speaker 06

  Hello, this is Susie Ruffel.

• 27:11Speaker 07

  And Maisie Adams.

• 27:12Speaker 06

  And together we host Big Kick Energy. Hey Mais, what is it?

• 27:15Speaker 07

  Only the best podcast ever.

• 27:17Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 27:17Speaker 07

  A comedy entertainment podcast with a focus on all things women's football, all things hilarious, all things friendship. It's a laugh is what it is, Ruffel.

• 27:27Speaker 06

  Yeah, and a fair bit of gossiping, too.

• 27:29Speaker 07

  Oh, and a lovely bit of gossip. Chow down on the

• 27:31Speaker 06

  You can listen wherever you get your podcasts, you just need to search Big Kick Energy.

• 27:37Speaker 07

  Grab a knife and fork and tuck in, baby.

• 27:43Fearne Cotton?

  I think if you're feeling glum, this is one of my go-tos, sorting out a drawer, even if it's just one or a cupboard.

• 27:51Speaker 02

  Oh no, it makes me feel great.

• 27:52Fearne Cotton?

  It can change the whole landscape of your mind.

• 27:54Speaker 02

  I totally agree. It relaxes me. Every time I then open, like I did the knife drawer, it looks great in there now.

• 28:00Fearne Cotton?

  It looks fantastic.

• 28:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, and finding things and what's this? I was disappointed the other day when I did the spices, herbs and spices. I'd clearly done it in 2020. Nothing was older than 2020.

• 28:09Fearne Cotton?

  Right.

• 28:10Speaker 02

  I wanted to find relics in there.

• 28:11Fearne Cotton?

  Nothing.

• 28:12Speaker 02

  We did another cupboard. We found something from 2012 and one of my kids was like, we should keep this because this is, what's that word, mummy? A relic. It's retro. I was like,

• 28:21Fearne Cotton?

  It's history.

• 28:22Speaker 02

  Put it in the bin. It's an embarrassment.

• 28:24Fearne Cotton?

  Are you good at letting go of stuff that you don't like? Say you've got, you've got four pairs of sparkly silver boots. Are you letting go of some of them or are you, you're keeping stuff?

• 28:32Speaker 02

  I'm getting better, actually, I think, at being realistic. Maybe the same for you. I'll get a pile and I'll put something on the pile and I'll know pretty much instantly if I did the right thing.

• 28:40Fearne Cotton?

  Does it spark joy?

• 28:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, and if it's just like, no, I'm at peace with that leaving. I've got a few things that are a bit, a bit nice that I'd like to see go to a good home. Most of it just goes to the charity shop. There's a few things where I'm like, is there someone I know? Maybe like someone's teenage daughter or a friend of mine that might benefit from it. Because I don't, I like things being lived in and being used and enjoyed.

• 28:59Fearne Cotton?

  Me too.

• 28:59Speaker 02

  But I am, I am okay with it. And every once in a while, the charity shop will put something I've donated in the window and I feel really good about that.

• 29:06Fearne Cotton?

  I love it when that happens.

• 29:07Speaker 02

  That was mine.

• 29:07Fearne Cotton?

  I love when that happens. So you're doing that when everyone's asleep?

• 29:11Speaker 02

  Quite often, yeah, I like it. I do like it. It makes me feel, or I'll do it in the mornings when I get up, the weekends. That's the first thing I'll start doing is like some random cupboard.

• 29:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's great fun. So when you, I know you're about to go on tour again this year in May.

• 29:23Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 29:23Fearne Cotton?

  And again, so that is where I guess you have to let go a little bit because you're not physically in the home. So you, you have to sort of step back to an extent.

• 29:31Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 29:31Fearne Cotton?

  How are you with guilt? Because I think this is still, it's a very obvious subject, but I think it is still something that most, maybe parents, but certainly mums feel when they. Especially weirdly, when they really like the thing they're doing, whether it's work or something that is recreational, going out with mates, having a nice time. The guilt of choosing that over being with your kid is still this kind of maybe ancestral hangover that we feel so torn apart by it, that we then stop enjoying the job or the thing that we're doing because we feel so racked with guilt. How do you manage that?

• 30:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, I think subconsciously when I started my podcast, which you very kindly were my first guest for.

• 30:12Fearne Cotton?

  Which I loved.

• 30:12Speaker 02

  So, so patient with me. I think I subconsciously did start, you know, when you do something and you don't know exactly what you're getting out of a project. Part of the podcast conversation is about, was about helping me have permission because I think I was finding the guilt just too much sometimes. And I realised that I had been speaking about my work in a way that minimised it in front of everybody in the house. I was quite dismissive. I didn't give it much status. I'd say, I've got to run off and do this thing and I don't really want to be gone and of course I'll be missing you and oh, I just have to go and I'll be quick, back as quick as possible. And I just was giving, I was making it very small. And nobody was, it was not helping with the conversation in the house because I'd made work a thing that was a bit small.

• 30:54Speaker 02

  So the kids could say to me, why are you doing that? Or, and it would get, it would be huge because I think, yes, you're right. Why, why am I? I've got a choice to make. I could be here. And then after empowering it a bit more, I, I gave it a bit more. It got a bit more respect and then they stopped asking me as, as much.

• 31:12Fearne Cotton?

  How interesting.

• 31:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, because I'd say, yes, I've got to go away, but I've, it's, it's important to me I do these things. And I'm really fortunate that I've been booked to do these things because there's so many people out there that do my job and they've asked me to do it and I really want to do it and I want to do it well. So I'm going to go and do it. And I'll be back before you know it. I keep myself available. I think that's the thing as they get older, it's easier. So especially for the older kids that, you know, they've got phones if they're at secondary school. So my 12 year old, I don't think I've missed a school run, no matter where I am in the world. I'll FaceTime him when he goes in, even if it's like 3am from me wherever I am, just because I know he, he needs that from me and that's okay. That makes me feel better if I know he's feeling good.

• 31:53Speaker 02

  But other parts, I just, I think I've just prioritised it better because I've stopped talking it down, actually.

• 31:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 31:59Speaker 02

  Which I was doing for so long.

• 32:01Fearne Cotton?

  Your tone then informs how they're reacting to it. Because I think we assume it's this inherent thing that as soon as we're gone, everything falls to shit. Whereas actually, a lot of the time, they're fine. And they, they don't even know you're not there or, you know, and if they need you, like you say, you're, you're available, you're around. I mean, how do you compartmentalise? Say you're doing something like, I loved watching you when you did the BAFTAs. And I was just like, this is a moment where I was so happy for you. I think I even messaged you afterwards, just going, you fucking nailed it. But also, what a moment to have after this, you know, hugely long career that you've already successfully been part of. To, to be at the BAFTAs, performing this song that everybody's talking about, like this huge film. It was such a moment. But say you're at something, of course terrifying.

• 32:43Speaker 02

  So terrifying, like the audience, oh my gosh.

• 32:45Fearne Cotton?

  The audience. Oh, hi Margot Robbie. Hi.

• 32:48Speaker 02

  Hey Robert Downey Jr. I, I, I told myself it was a lookalikes convention because I was just like, this is too much for my little brain.

• 32:54Fearne Cotton?

  Too much.

• 32:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was, I mean, those things, the moments, and I, I think actually around that time, that, that was even then, it was only February of last year. But I was already feeling a bit like, ah, I'm away a lot, oh. And, um, and Richard actually encouraged me to involve the kids. So later on, that same month, I had, I'd been invited to sing at Mardi Gras in Sydney. And I could take someone with me and I took my then eight year old, Jessie. So he became my little date and we had four days in Sydney. And I think he'll remember it always, actually, although we travelled. Because it was a work trip and they'd invited me there. So I had business class flights. And so we get on the plane and before we've even taken off, he's pressing all the buttons, like, like Tom Hanks in Big, you know, what does he, brr, brr. And he goes, and he stops and he went, how much is this? And I said, oh Jessie, it's like thousands. And he went, it's worth it.

• 33:42Fearne Cotton?

  Oh no, what have we started?

• 33:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, really.

• 33:44Fearne Cotton?

  What we are screwed.

• 33:46Speaker 02

  Mummy, are we flying piss? No, you're not. It's fun, honey. Come on. Family holiday, guys. Yeah, just involving them really, so that I didn't feel too. Too stretched, but yeah, I do, of course, I do sometimes feel incredibly guilty still. It's not gone, but I'm better.

• 34:02Fearne Cotton?

  And can you quite easily click into, say, you know, we all always have a level of drama going on, whether it's, you know, one kid refusing to go to an after-school club. Or like, they're everyday things, but it's constant, all of friends falling out with someone, whatever. And then the next thing you know, you have to really focus because you're on stage, you're in front of a crowd. Can you switch into work mode quickly?

• 34:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've had to. I don't have any indulgence about that. It's like literally the only way I've been able to do it. But I think in some ways, although sometimes it's to the point of ridiculousness, I'll be. I remember actually when I was recording the New Year's Eve show that we did for the BBC. And I was in between the two slots, so around midnight. And I had to, I'd remembered I hadn't sorted a playdate out that was happening around that. You know, those sorts of things. So sometimes it'll be really like.

• 34:54Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 34:55Speaker 02

  But I think what it's given me, which is something I think is helpful, is that I don't really need any specific situation to feel ready to do what I do. And I think it's meant that I've just had to be like, so long as I've got, you know, it's basically I pack it in myself, what I need for work. I don't need to have even time to, you know, warm up or anything. It's like, just get out there. I think that's actually helped me because it's meant I've felt more self-sufficient.

• 35:25Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. Do you think that's just experience and you've done it a lot? Because I think sometimes, you know, over the years, certainly when I was at Radio One, you would get all manner of artists come in, you'd get people like you who, there's no fuss. They know exactly what they're doing. They're confident in their skill set. They know that they're going to sing the song to the best of their ability that day. And it is quite literally that simple. And it's always quite refreshing and like, wow, that was just all very fluid. And then some, you know, you've got voice steamers and 10 people in the entourage and they need a certain room to hang out in first. And it's just this huge furor around them. And actually you can see that it's counterproductive because it ends up putting more pressure on the person. Because there's this huge thing before they actually just do the job.

• 36:07Fearne Cotton?

  But it doesn't have to be like that. I mean, I feel the same about, I'm not singing, but I just feel like as long as I've done the work before and I've got my notes, there doesn't need to be any fuss. Any drama, I don't need to come with anyone, just do the fucking job.

• 36:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I guess actually, thinking over, it's also about surrounding yourself with good people, isn't it? Because when you've got people around you that know what they're doing, that are really talented, you also have that, you're never doing anything on your own. And actually, I do feel like I have, I only really work with people that I feel like lucky to be working with, and that is a great advantage. So I shouldn't really, I shouldn't forget that in the midst of my own, like, I can do this. I've also got around me people that are really good. And I think, I was actually watching that, that Boy Band documentary that's on not long ago.

• 36:54Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I need to see this.

• 36:55Speaker 02

  It's really good. Yeah, and it made me remember that you, you can't help but compare, you know, other people doing similar things to you as a very like for like. And you forget that some people have got, you know, corruption around them, or terrible management, or, you know, people that don't support them. And so, their behaviour becomes part of this whole little world that's around them. And if you're able to get to a place where you're feeling satisfied and engaged and, and sparked by what you do, chances are you're being, that's being facilitated by the people around you. You, nothing happens in isolation. And actually, that's a, that's a privilege, isn't it?

• 37:37Fearne Cotton?

  It is. I think it's all collaboration, isn't it? There's only, we all have our own, you know, ceilings and limits as to how far we can take it. And it's about, you know, finding brilliant people that are as excited as you are. And, and also attracting good people in. Because I think the one thing about you that, again, is rare and also why you've been able to sustain this career, on top of being extremely talented, but just your outlook on it. There's no bullshit. You've not been sucked into the vacuum of, you know, ego and believing all of this hype. You're just a regular person, going about your business, having a family. But I think it's so easy, and, you know, we've all seen it. You get sucked into that world of parties and events and everyone

• 38:23Fearne Cotton?

  luring you to Fashion Week and all of this stuff that you Don't really give a shit about, but you feel like, I don't know, maybe there's an element of, oh, I'm popular.

• 38:32Fearne Cotton?

  You've never been sort of, sort of, I don't know, gone off on that tangent, it seems, or tempted to.

• 38:37Speaker 02

  No, but then sometimes I, because I do all manner of, of types of gig and all sorts. I feel like it'd be really hard for me to exist in that world because there's so many things that would be constantly like bringing me back down to earth.

• 38:52Fearne Cotton?

  Children.

• 38:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, any, yeah, kids always like, you know, if you're someone that sings in a club and you have to get ready and like.

• 38:58Fearne Cotton?

  Hello.

• 38:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly, exactly. So, um, I don't even know how I'd access that. But I like the, the thing you've, when you're saying that makes me think of that phrase about drinking the Kool-Aid. I really love that phrase. When you meet people like, they've drunk the Kool-Aid.

• 39:10Fearne Cotton?

  They've drunk their own Kool-Aid, they're believing the hype.

• 39:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, I think, you know, I said before, if I'd had success on success, I'm sure there could have been bits of it. Actually, you could there, I don't know, actually. Even when things would been going really well with my first album, I could sort of see that some of it was. I mean, like enjoyable but absolute bollocks as well.

• 39:32Fearne Cotton?

  Do you think that's down to upbringing? Cause I think, you know, my mum is a sort of person that would say to me, don't get big for your boots or, or just shut up, basically. I mean, your mum also had the hindsight of, you know, she's, she'd been in the industry, she understood the pitfalls and the dangers of it, including. Being in the public eye. Did she ever sort of offer up wisdom or pointers for you?

• 39:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, definitely. My parents have always been really good. And I think the thing that was really crucial and, and, and, and really helped me so much is that. No one in my family ever became like a fan of what I was doing. I don't mean they don't support me, but you know, they never got starstruck by anything. And that is actually a really big help. So it wasn't like they were, oh, it's TV or, you know, and it would be completely understandable if they had, if that had been a different world. But because they'd gone through, they worked in television and did their own, you know, creatively, my mum went to drama school, so they had points of reference. Enough points of reference to not feel, you know, too wowed by us, too starry eyed. But at the same time, they had a bit of a gap. So the music thing could be mine, which I needed a bit of that. Think bit of independence. And then my girlfriends, you know, they're the same friends I've had since school.

• 40:40Speaker 02

  So when my first album was doing stuff, they were all off at uni, having their own adventures. And I think most of the people that I surround myself with, or I've, you know, been lucky enough to have around me. Are people that will ask me how I, how I am, rather than just be like blown away by something I've done. So that we actually end up talking about how you're really feeling in amongst things.

• 40:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 40:59Speaker 02

  And again, probably having that, that first thing where my band got dropped. It meant when my first album took off, I could really see things quite, quite clearly. And then, and then it's really funny if you find yourself, I remember going to um Germany on a work trip and the M D of the label. Taking us all out for dinner and he said, I have all of my golden eggs here because he had all the singers that were doing well at that time. And I was like, wow. Couldn't make this stuff up.

• 41:25Fearne Cotton?

  This is bullshit.

• 41:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it's so, it's actually like fun.

• 41:27Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 41:28Speaker 02

  Great.

• 41:29Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 41:29Speaker 02

  Let me just write that down.

• 41:31Fearne Cotton?

  Reminder of that.

• 41:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:32Fearne Cotton?

  I know.

• 41:32Speaker 02

  All of that stuff. So I think I kind of enjoyed it.

• 41:35Fearne Cotton?

  Those sorts of moments where, it doesn't even have to be rock bottom, but where you understand the fragility of the system that you're working in is so important. I mean, I've had some fucking car crash moments of just like, oh my god, my career's over, I'm done. And I don't think I would still be doing this if I hadn't been to those places, because I wouldn't. The thing for me is I wouldn't be grateful for any of it. Like, I'm so grateful every time I get to sit and do this. I don't take it for granted at all, I think. And that actually makes you enjoy it more, feel excited about it, you're motivated. And I think it's when it's all just so easy and just all kind of happens that you start to lose sight of why you're even doing it.

• 42:13Speaker 02

  Definitely.

• 42:14Fearne Cotton?

  It's so important.

• 42:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, we are lucky and it's fun and yeah, I think you're right. You just don't take it for granted. And it gives you a bit of perspective as well. And I've, I mean, I've, like you, I've had moments where I'm like, oh my gosh, that's humiliating. Or I feel lost. And you know, I think as if you're making music, the thing that's worse is when no one's got any opinion of what you're up to, because they're just not hearing it. It's just so, it's so lonely. But there's always been like a little flicker of something where I'm like, ah, I can just put one foot in front of the other. And what makes me think I'm entitled to anything more than I've got right now. I've got so many friends that are so talented and it's, it's not a level playing field here.

• 42:57Speaker 02

  But if you can still find the, the love and enjoyment, then then, you know, you end up feeling, feeling good about it, don't you?

• 43:03Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, without a doubt.

• 43:07Speaker 03

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• 44:18Speaker 04

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• 44:51Fearne Cotton?

  Now have you found, especially with the last year of having murder on the dance floor just everywhere again, and also like taking you to the States, and it's been this whole global situation. With that, obviously, comes this accentuated fame, which you've got history of the last 20 years, but it's been quite intense the last year and a bit. How do you deal with that in general? You kind of, do you navigate it with ease?

• 45:16Speaker 02

  I think I've I've sort of realised when I when I first started getting recognised, I realised that there's different types of of celebrity or fame. There's when people recognise you because you're part of something that's a cultural moment, but then you could it would be the same to them if they recognise you because you're an advert that's played all the time or anything. But then it's different if someone's like, oh, you know, the book that you wrote meant a lot to me, or, you know, I heard your podcast and it really meant a lot. So when it's more specific about something you've actually you've done with a purpose and it's been received in that way is really that's really special. But even, you know, when I did Strictly, Strictly is like this thing that's like this right at the heart of like culture. People will be, you know, I'm walking in streets, I'm across the road, what's what dance are you doing the other weekend?

• 46:00Speaker 02

  I was like, whoa. But then I've always taken comfort of the fact that most the general public, and I'm I'm included in this, got quite a short short memory span really for what's going on. So something that happened six months ago, that's like old news. So if there's ever a time when I feel like it feels a bit intense, I know it will pass. It just doesn't last. But if you get people that are actually engaged with what you've done, that's that's lovely. But I've never had my life in a bit where I'm like, oh, this is a bit too much for me, really. I kind of dip in and out of it, I think. But, you know, I can still still wander about living my life.

• 46:35Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 46:35Speaker 02

  Came around the tube, it's all fine.

• 46:37Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 46:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, maybe it'd be quite fun if it's a bit more intense, but I seem to be able to do absolutely everything and it's fine.

• 46:42Fearne Cotton?

  I think you've got enough on your plate at the moment, quite frankly. I mean, what about if you are performing in front of a big audience like the BAFTAs or a show like that where you know all eyes are on you? Are you just Jimmy Fallon, was it in the States? I mean, you've got huge audiences watching you. Do you feel the pressure of that?

• 46:57Speaker 02

  Um, with the BAFTAs, I actually did. I don't normally. I mean, with Fallon and everything's happened in America, it's been glorious, but it's also so unexpected. And also, a lot of these things, they resonate more if they've got if there's something that you would watch anyway or engage with. So whilst I'd probably be vaguely aware, maybe if someone might maybe doing Fallon, but not necessarily. So I always take reassurance in that. Like, would I would I encounter this in my everyday life? Possibly not. Right, fine then. I'll just quieten that one down. But the BAFTAs was different only because I felt like there were a lot of people working on this. It was only like, what, three, four minute performance? But there'd been conversations and meetings and choreography and dancers and all of Saltburn were there.

• 47:37Fearne Cotton?

  You opened the show, no?

• 47:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, there was all Emerald Fennel and all the cast of Saltburn. And I just thought. It was like this, like, I was like, if I'm crap, like, literally no one will want to say they did this with me. It'll just be that thing they did once that was awful. And actually, I had a really interesting thing happen to me and that, um, well, I found it interesting. In the morning of the day that I was doing this, the BAFTAs, I woke up and I thought, I am not in the right headspace and I'm not gonna do it right tonight. And I'm normally someone, if I've got a pressurized day, I actually wake up feeling like it's my birthday. I'm quite excited, maybe a little bit too enthusiastic, but I've got, it's quite like birthday energy. This, I was like, I'd thought it through so much to the point where I pictured myself at the after-party

• 48:21Speaker 02

  and people not being sure if they should come over and say something reassuring or not. And it, I saw it in complete clarity. It was people like catching my eye and looking away. And some people come in and going, don't worry, it was fine.

• 48:32Fearne Cotton?

  I actually feel sick about this.

• 48:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I had it all day and it just didn't leave me. So, all while I was getting ready with my friend Lisa doing my hair and makeup, I like, all my team around me, I, it was just there. All day. And I was like, I'm going to fuck this up, like massively. And I know, I know this. And so it was, it just didn't, didn't leave. I didn't get in the pocket. I didn't get into that bit where I felt good. I was like, damn it, that's so annoying.

• 48:57Fearne Cotton?

  It's like the most annoying thing ever.

• 48:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I just didn't tell anybody. I kept it completely to myself. I thought the moment I start talking about it.

• 49:04Fearne Cotton?

  It's real.

• 49:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's real. So I just shut up and internalized it. And then we got to the bit where I was all dolled up and in my dress and all the dancers in there and they're stretching and they're bending and they're a bit nervous. And Greg Williams takes one of those lovely black and white photos and I was like, this is me just before I screw it up. And I got up on stage and murder started and I felt this wave of nausea go through from my feet to the top of my head, which I'm, I never get like that. I'm normally sort of kind of okay by the time it happens. And then I felt in my, in my head, I went, will you get over yourself? It is three minutes, you've sung it before and I'll shut up and just do it.

• 49:44Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 49:45Speaker 02

  And I just did it. And then afterwards, I was so elated that this bad thing hadn't happened. I thought, I must remember that because we let our minds be the governor of us so much. I've thought it, it's fact. I've got a premonition, it's fact. It's not fact. Your brain is so good at that. It can give you all these plunky, pass me that, that's not what I asked for. But it doesn't mean that's what's going to play out. And actually, um, I hope that another day that helps me out, that that happened and it, I wasn't the one crying in the corner at the after party.

• 50:18Fearne Cotton?

  It's such a good lesson learned because I think we can so relate to that in any capacity, whether it's like, I don't know, even a social thing you're nervous to go to, or you've got to do some public speaking, or just something that you're totally dreading. It could be something medical, whatever, that you build up this whole story to the point where you believe,

• 50:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:36Fearne Cotton?

  this is one, and if you let superstition in, you're absolutely screwed. Like, that's when it start, for me, that's when it gets gnarly, when there's superstition.

• 50:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:42Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, no. And I've seen.

• 50:44Speaker 02

  Touch the lights which I left.

• 50:45Fearne Cotton?

  Exactly, completely, all of that, like, there's all of that that goes on. You see something, I've saw a black crow and it's a bloody omen, whatever the hell it is.

• 50:51Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 50:52Fearne Cotton?

  You can talk yourself into that. And actually, you have to almost collate these moments like data and go, there is actual data, there's proof that that didn't happen and I have to remember.

• 51:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:01Fearne Cotton?

  That I can get myself out of this. And actually, give yourself a jolly good talking to.

• 51:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:05Fearne Cotton?

  And say, sort your shit out, you're capable of this, you can do it.

• 51:08Speaker 02

  I just felt pressure because there's been so many people and they're all about to do their thing. And look, dancers work so much harder than me when I perform. Like, if I'm lucky enough to have dancers, like, they are really, like, they, they, you know, break out in a sweat. I'm just like, sauntering around. I just thought, I can't let these people down. And sometimes as well, if there's a nerve wracking or a big event, I will dissipate the energy by, by focusing it out on other people. I'll be like, don't worry, we get, you know, we, when we did, um, I, I sang in Times Square, uh, for New Year's Eve.

• 51:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, so amazing.

• 51:41Speaker 02

  And, and, you know, the dancers there, they were nervous, some of the band were a bit nervous. And I was like, Before I start, I'm like, we are four minutes away from Margarita.

• 51:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 51:48Speaker 02

  Let's just do this. It's one more time, then we can relax. But really, I'm deflecting because if I focus on them and I try and model feeling okay, you can actually fake it till you make it a little bit with that, I think.

• 51:59Fearne Cotton?

  I think so. I think so.

• 52:01Speaker 02

  I don't recommend that motion.

• 52:02Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, no, no.

• 52:04Speaker 02

  Bloody day. I was like, sooner or later, I'm just gonna snap out of it. And I just didn't. And I was like, whoa, this is, I think it's also, I did have an awful New Year's Eve live once where I was given the wrong mic, live on BBC, live from Somerset House, straight after the fireworks. I was given the wrong microphone. So when I started singing, I couldn't hear anything. And I knew there were like 10 million people watching. And it is horrible. So I did have the bit where I went to a party. There was some people going, it's not that bad. So I've lived that version of events too.

• 52:33Fearne Cotton?

  I mean.

• 52:33Speaker 02

  The world still turns, but I wouldn't, I don't want to do it again.

• 52:36Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, no, no, no. We've all, we've all had those bum clenching horrendous moments.

• 52:42Speaker 02

  Oh, it's me. It's happening. I'm in the middle of it. What am I doing? No, I'm still just rubbing headlights, actually. Yeah. Oh, wow.

• 52:51Fearne Cotton?

  I have so many anxiety dreams still now, but even I'll be in a radio studio and the faders are like 10 metres that way and 10 metres that way, and I can't get to them. And it's like that anxiety of everyone thinks I'm a twat. This is horrific. Like, it's the worst.

• 53:04Speaker 02

  Crumbling down.

• 53:05Fearne Cotton?

  The worst feeling. And actually, do you know what? I think it's a really amazing thing, even after like the time it did happen to you. Again, to prove to yourself, you can recover from humiliating moments. And they're not even humiliating, they're humiliating to you in the moment. And then, like you say, everyone forgets about it 10 minutes later. But I think to prove, you're like, not really. Um, I think, but I think to prove to yourself that, you know, I think most of us stop, stop taking risks or don't do things because we're so scared of being humiliated. It's one of the worst feelings ever, being humiliated. I've had awful humiliation in moments of my life. And, but then I'm sat here today and I can public speak and I feel like I'm confident in the job that I do.

• 53:47Fearne Cotton?

  And I think we do have to remind ourselves that we can overcome it and we can, and it might take time, but we can pick ourselves back up. We can get our confidence back slowly.

• 53:55Speaker 02

  Do you find yourself saying yes to things because they scare you a little bit?

• 53:59Fearne Cotton?

  Sometimes, but I'm still massively racked with fear about certain areas. I still, I'm not a fan of doing, presenting live TV. I'll go on it where I'm not in control and someone else is running the show. But I think I would be still quite petrified to do live TV because that, the risk of humiliation, it feels like a thin veneer between me being in control and it all going completely tits up. And I didn't used to feel that at all.

• 54:25Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 54:25Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, no, no, no. Like, I used to go on live TV without any fear. I would just be like, whatever, it's no big deal. Or I used to get a kick out of it. Whereas now, it would absolutely petrify me. Yeah.

• 54:40Speaker 02

  Like, live TV used to give me panic attacks. I used to find it absolut- I-

• 54:44Fearne Cotton?

  It's terrifying.

• 54:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's the bit where they'd be like, okay, we're going live in two minutes. And I'd think, I can't get out of this. And I've just got to be here and got to do this. Oh, I-

• 54:52Fearne Cotton?

  It's because you're trapped in it. You know you can't, you're absolutely trapped. There's no option. Whereas I think now, I'd like to think, if I was in that situation, I was on live TV and I felt a panic attack coming on, that I would just sort of say it out loud and go, do you know what? I'm feeling weird and I'm having a panic attack and I need to, and just say it. Cause I think that dissipates it.

• 55:13Speaker 02

  Also, why do you need to be okay with that? It's an artificial environment. Actually, sometimes, we talk a lot about overcoming things, but actually, if something is making you feel bad, just, it's okay to just say, I don't do that anymore.

• 55:23Fearne Cotton?

  I don't wanna do it.

• 55:23Speaker 02

  That's completely fine.

• 55:24Fearne Cotton?

  I don't wanna do it. No, I, I completely agree. I think there is a limit. There's, there's, there's like a line. There's like, I'm out of my comfort zone. Like, every time I do one of these, I am slightly out of my comfort zone because I wanna do a good job and I want

• 55:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, you care.

• 55:37Fearne Cotton?

  the guests to feel good. I care about it. But then I think there's out, out, out of your comfort zone, which is like, this is actually making me feel dreadful. And that feels, I'm, I'm quite fascinated. Whenever I've interviewed like a sports personality or I remember like when Gaz Southgate came on. Asking that question to people who have to push themselves to the absolute limit of like, you know, Gareth Southgate couldn't have been any more watched and judged in that role as England manager. Is that too much out of your comfort zone? Like, it's so interesting.

• 56:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:06Fearne Cotton?

  We all have a bespoke limit as to what that is and

• 56:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:10Fearne Cotton?

  I think we should honour it and not push ourselves to a point of, this is making me feel dreadful. I don't like it.

• 56:16Speaker 02

  And also, if you're for sports people, what do they do when, when they're on the other side of those things? How do you get the bits of that job that made you, that you were thriving on? Where do you find that?

• 56:25Fearne Cotton?

  I know, where do you find that?

• 56:27Speaker 02

  I find that interesting.

• 56:28Fearne Cotton?

  I know. Well, you know, luckily for you and me, we're still working and doing our thing and getting that feeling. But I think it's never far off that thought. What if I wasn't doing this? Where would I get that kick?

• 56:39Speaker 02

  My kids are horrified when I say I'm not going to retire. That scares them a lot.

• 56:44Fearne Cotton?

  That's so great.

• 56:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're like, what? Please. I mean, five more years, right?

• 56:50Fearne Cotton?

  My kids are like,

• 56:51Speaker 02

  Sorry.

• 56:51Fearne Cotton?

  What is your job? I don't get what it is. I'm like, I don't know. I haven't got a fucking clue. Just chatting in different mediums. That's ridiculous. I'd like to end by asking you, where is your happy place?

• 57:06Speaker 02

  My happy place is people, actually. So it's where my people are. Friends, family. Yeah, that's where my happy place is.

• 57:13Fearne Cotton?

  Well, look, good luck on tour. What is it? You're going out in May?

• 57:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, out in May. My, my big thing at the moment is finishing my album.

• 57:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 57:20Speaker 02

  Handing all the music in. I've worked really hard on it, so I'm excited.

• 57:23Fearne Cotton?

  Feeling great about it?

• 57:23Speaker 02

  I am, actually. It's, I mean, look, who knows what happened with it, but it's the album I'm meant to make. And that's, you can't really do more than that.

• 57:29Fearne Cotton?

  That's a good feeling.

• 57:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, I like that feeling very much.

• 57:33Fearne Cotton?

  Is that an album that therefore it sort of writes itself? You're like, you know the tone of it, it's fun.

• 57:39Speaker 02

  So I knew I wanted to do a pop dance record. I, I spent 10 years working with a singer songwriter called Ed Harcourt. And we, we did quite, quite left field, quite introspective, some folky stuff. I loved it. I needed it so much. And we knew we were going to do three albums and out. So as that was doing the third album, I was thinking, what do I do next? I thought, I think I'm going to go back to the sort of music I used to make. And then with what happened with Murder, it basically meant that I could then get in the room with really great people. So I just took full advantage.

• 58:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 58:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, I exploited the situation.

• 58:08Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 58:09Speaker 02

  And worked with some amazing people and had so much fun. I love it very much. It's such a joy, like pop music.

• 58:15Fearne Cotton?

  The best. And you love being on tour?

• 58:17Speaker 02

  I do, actually. I love performing. I love always, I feel like I'm still curious and still getting better. It's one of those things I feel like you'll, I'll keep learning till I stop. And I, I like that feeling. I think it's

• 58:27Fearne Cotton?

  Which is never.

• 58:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, which is, it'll come out. Whatever happened to Baby Jane is where I'm hoping to end up. That's, that's always been my destiny. Green eyeshadow.

• 58:37Fearne Cotton?

  Can they please wheel us both out in like thirty, forty years and we'll just do this again?

• 58:41Speaker 02

  Exactly, yeah.

• 58:42Fearne Cotton?

  See what we've got to say then. Hopefully be wiser and have more stories.

• 58:46Speaker 02

  That'd be nice.

• 58:46Fearne Cotton?

  Um, but look, it's as ever been a joy talking to you.

• 58:49Speaker 02

  So nice.

• 58:50Fearne Cotton?

  And I just wish you so much love and luck for the rest of this year.

• 58:52Speaker 02

  Same to you, fun.

• 58:53Fearne Cotton?

  Thanks, Sophie.

• 58:56Fearne Cotton?

  Ah, Sophie. Sophie's so great. Not only, well, you know that because you just listened. She's so brilliant and so normal and down to earth. She's got the tube here, no fuss, turned up, we had a lovely chat. She's probably popped off to do about eighty things with her kids, mix an album, et cetera. And also, when you're lucky enough to sit only a metre away from Sophie, to see her gorgeous elfin beauty in real life is something else. She is a complete wonder. Sophie is going on tour, by the way. It's her biggest ever UK headline tour, and it's in May and June this year, twenty twenty five. Has a bit of a low period propelled you into positive, exciting action on the other side, I wonder? Come and chat on Instagram.

• 59:37Fearne Cotton?

  I love seeing what you're talking about. We can all chat together over at at Happy Place Official. Until next week then, a massive thank you again to the brilliant, sparkly Sophie, to the producer Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios, and to you, you are ace.

• 1:00:21Speaker 04

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• 1:01:23Speaker 06

  Hello, I'm Joanna Fletcher.

• 1:01:25Speaker 07

  And I'm Marco Burchella.

• 1:01:27Speaker 06

  And this is Boots Off.

• 1:01:30Speaker 07

  We are friends who've spent a decade together, walking up mountains, across deserts, and along coastlines with some seriously awesome groups of humans.

• 1:01:38Speaker 06

  And something happens when you're out there, feet on the ground, surrounded by nature. The conversations just spill out of you.

• 1:01:44Speaker 07

  This series is about the adversities that lead to adventure.

• 1:01:48Speaker 06

  The adventures that lead to adversity.

• 1:01:50Speaker 07

  And how life can be one big adventure in itself.

• 1:01:53Speaker 06

  Listen every Thursday. Just search for Boots Off.