Pod Insights Behind the Bastards We Read Newt Gingrich's World War 2 Alternate History About this episode Robert sits down and explains former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich's alt-history novel to Molly Conger. If you've ever wondered what would happen if the Nazis invaded Tennessee well, here it is.
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Transcript 10,171 words · 7 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Robert Evans? It's the podcast that it is on election day, but you won't hear this on election day. You know how the election has gone. You listening have information.
0:18 Speaker 01 You'll hear this in December.
0:20 Robert Evans? Yeah, yeah, probably in December.
0:22 Speaker 01 Which hopefully means the election is over by then, but who knows?
0:27 Robert Evans? God willing. Yeah, God willing. The election is almost certainly over, which means, you know, find a way to communicate to the past and let us know so that we can gamble on it. That's, that's what I'd like you to do. Uh, anyway, speaking of gambling, you know, who knows all of the words to the classic song, The Gambler? Our guest today, Molly Conger. Molly, do you know when to hold them? Oh, I know when to fold them. That's as much of that song as I know. When to run. Well done. Well done. Oh my God. And I think I only know that from Infowars. I do love watching Alex Jones sing that and the highwayman Poncho and Lefty.
1:12 Robert Evans? You know, he's just grooving. It's things are going well for Alex when he's doing that. That's the most jealous I ever am of him because we're not allowed to use, we have no licensing agreement with any company that owns songs. Yeah, he must. Otherwise he wouldn't be allowed to air them like that. I think there, because there are like, there are like, like ways that you as a broadcaster can just like, make a deal for access to, you know, they have X number of songs and we can use them for whatever. I think that exists. I think that's gotta be what he does.
1:45 Speaker 01 You were somewhat correct, but I, that doesn't mean that Alex Jones has a deal with them. He could totally be grifting because that's what you do.
1:51 Robert Evans? I think he'd have been sued before then about this.
1:55 Speaker 01 Maybe.
1:56 Speaker 02 You're so chipper today, Robert.
1:59 Robert Evans? Yep, I'm I'm chipper. I'm I'm doing good.
2:02 Speaker 02 How many hours of sleep did you get, bud?
2:04 Robert Evans? I had like six last night. I tried to get to bed early, but I really couldn't get to sleep before like three thirty in the morning. I don't know. Uh, well, it's behind the bastards and we're all trying not to obsess over the election. And I thought, you know, we all might be hoping that history goes a different way, depending on what happens today. So why not read a work of alternate history? Uh, you know, we love doing book episodes over here because it's lets me rest a little bit. The trouble is finding a book. You can't just use any book and it's sometimes hard to figure it
2:43 Robert Evans? out. And thank God, I got very lucky. Margaret Killjoy was over at my house recently, not bragging, although I am kind of bragging.
2:52 Speaker 02 You know some celebrities.
2:54 Robert Evans? I know some celebrities. I know a famous Killjoy, who's also a famous Margaret. And she brought me a book that a fan had given her at an event because our fans are unhinged and have just decided sometimes we should hand one member of the team an absolutely terrible piece of literature to give to another member of the team. Uh, and the the the book that I have received is nineteen forty-five by Newt Gingrich. Uh, Molly?
3:24 Speaker 02 Wow, what if things had been different?
3:26 Robert Evans? What if things had been different?
3:30 Robert Evans? Do you know much about old Newt, uh, in this book?
3:35 Speaker 02 So I did not realize, and this is, this is on me entirely. You know, I know a little bit about, you know, old moon base Newt, but I did not realize he had written like thirty works of fiction.
3:47 Robert Evans? He he has written a lot of fiction.
3:49 Speaker 02 Where does he find the time?
3:51 Robert Evans? Uh, I mean, he doesn't spend a lot of his political career does not take up a lot of time.
3:56 Speaker 02 Well, because you know, usually when you see like, oh, you know, this politician has written a book, a memoir, memoir, or whatever. And it's like, okay, well, like, a campaign staffer wrote that. That's for PR. No, this is his passion.
4:06 Robert Evans? Yeah.
4:07 Speaker 02 He's writing these.
4:10 Robert Evans? Yeah, this is what he really wanted to do. And my God, I it's a I wish we had some sort of program in place where when we find some guy who has like, an artistic dream, but also weird right wing politics, we just kind of like swallow our pride and fund like have have a have a government agency buy up copies of their books. So they feel like a success. Anything to keep them from running for office.
4:36 Speaker 02 Let Hitler paint.
4:37 Robert Evans? Yeah, what if let Hitler paint, let Ben Shapiro make his dog shit TV show about fucking law students.
4:44 Speaker 02 You're posing sort of like a Truman Show type experience where we encapsulate them safely.
4:49 Robert Evans? We have to Truman Show these people, right? Run a fake, you know, that White House Correspondents Dinner that supposedly got Trump committed him to run for office. Hold a fake one of those where everybody just talks about how nice he is and how much they admire him, you know, like we yeah, we really have to put these people in bubbles. It's the kindest thing for all of us.
5:11 Robert Evans? Oh, man. So yeah, we're going to be reading 1945. As you might guess, it is a World War II alternate history. Yeah, of course, Sophie, what else could it be? What else could it be? And this is a particularly.
5:27 Speaker 02 You did tell me that, but I did not process it. I was like, I was like, that's not what it is.
5:30 Robert Evans? Oh, yeah, of course, of course. And it's it's it's a wild one. I'm gonna tell you that right now. So our author for today, I'm gonna go through a little bit of a scripted portion here, is Newton Leroy Gingrich.
5:44 Speaker 02 Leroy.
5:45 Robert Evans? Leroy.
5:46 Speaker 02 Leroy Gingrich.
5:47 Robert Evans? Yeah, that I you can't not do the Leroy Jenkins thing, which is just gonna be incomprehensible for anyone in our audience that's like younger than their mid 30s. You don't know who Leroy Jenkins was. You don't remember the old times. Pieces of shit. Sorry. Anyway, there's a post in the subreddit now saying that I'm an old man and all my references are old man references. And the thing that makes me angry is is they're like, he never references The Simpsons from any episode later than the year 2000. And I'm sorry, I never reference The Simpsons episode from later than 1998, because that's when they stopped being good.
6:23 Speaker 02 You're not an old man.
6:25 Robert Evans? Thank you, Sophie, but you've called me an old man on the show.
6:29 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's, that's because I'm allowed to. It's okay when I do it. They're not allowed to do that. You are used to them. To me, you are ancient.
6:38 Robert Evans? I'm not. They haven't even seen Alien Four. These, these scrubs, these babies. None of them know what Seaquest DSV was. Molly, did you watch Seaquest?
6:48 Speaker 02 I don't know what you're talking about.
6:49 Robert Evans? Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Go get a learner's permit. Anyway.
6:54 Speaker 02 I think we're the same age.
6:56 Robert Evans? Will I be?
6:57 Speaker 01 But mentally.
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8:57 Robert Evans? Newton Leroy Gingrich was born two years before the title of his novel on June 17th, 1943. Newt's father was a career soldier, but Newt takes a different path. He's actually an art student. He gets like an MA in the mid 60s. And like any guy who could during the Vietnam War, he gets a deferment from being drafted by arguing that he was a student and a young father. Remember that because there's going to be a funny code to that a little bit later in this story.
9:28 Speaker 02 We all know Newt's a family man.
9:29 Robert Evans? We all know Newt's a family man. We all know Newt's a big not fighting in wars, but not a big not having wars guy. Newton is elected to Congress in 1979. In an address to college Republicans before his election, he said, "I think one of the great problems we have in the Republican Party is that we don't encourage you to be nasty. We encourage you to be neat, obedient, and loyal and faithful," and all those Boy Scout words. Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, they've done a terrible job, a pathetic job. "In my lifetime, in my lifetime, I was born in 1943. We have not had a competent national Republican leader, not ever." And it's very clear from that context that a competent leader is a mean one, right? Like,
10:12 Robert Evans? that's what he's missing? Like, Richard Nixon's just too nice.
10:16 Speaker 02 Well, politics really needs us more vitriol.
10:18 Robert Evans? Yeah, it needs more real assholes. I think that's interesting because it makes a case that I think is an important thing to understand if you're trying to like puzzle out why we are where we are now in American politics. And the basics of that case is, well, because Republicans lost their minds when Nixon had to step down. And everything they've done since then has been dedicated to stopping, making sure that no other Republican would ever have to leave office, no matter what crimes they committed, right?
10:46 Speaker 02 Well, there's no modern precedent.
10:48 Robert Evans? Yeah, no modern precedent for that. So in 1985, as a congressman, Newton told an interviewer, I think from the Washington Post, who asked about his deferment during Vietnam, quote, "Given everything I believe, a large part of me thinks I should have gone over." If only Newt. I do wish you had gone to fight in Vietnam.
11:11 Robert Evans? Now, that same year, when President Reagan held a summit with Soviet Premier Gorbachev, Newton called it, quote, "The most dangerous summit for the West since Adolf Hitler met with Chamberlain in 1938 at Munich." And I love the idea that, like, Gorbachev is a Hitler figure. This guy who wouldn't even shoot back during, like, the protests that overthrew his government is like a Hitler, you know? The "future Pizza Hut spokesman Gorbachev" as a Hitler kind of figure?
11:44 Speaker 02 R.I.P. Hitler. You would have loved Pizza Hut.
11:48 Robert Evans? That does tell you where our boy Newt is on, like, the political alignment chart, right? He sees Ronald Reagan as a fucking Neville Chamberlain type. Now, that same year, Gingrich made the news for comparing a House race that was in question in Indiana to the Holocaust. Here's a quote about it. I'm gonna read you the quote, Molly. Here's a quote about it as relayed by an article in Mother Jones. And it starts with Newt here. "We've talked a lot in recent weeks about the Holocaust, about the incredible period in which Nazi Germany killed millions of people and in particular, came close to wiping out European Jewry. If someone said to me two days ago, talking frankly about the McIntyre Affair, in which Democrats refused to seat the winner of a House race
12:32 Robert Evans? until they'd conducted a recount, and the efforts by the Democratic leadership to not allow the people of Indiana to have their representative, but instead to impose upon them someone else," something in which he quotes German poet Martin Niemuller. "I have never quite, until tonight, been able to link it together. Niemuller, the great German theologian, said at one point, 'When the Nazis came for the Jews, I did nothing. And when the Nazis came for me, there was no one left.'" Right? I think, sorry, I think it's Niemuller. But this, like, so basically, the Democrats are like, "Well, until we finish a recount, we're not gonna sit this guy because there's questions about the election." And fucking Newt is like, "This is the same as the Holocaust."
13:12 Speaker 02 So, at what point did millions of people die? Did they kill all the voters?
13:17 Robert Evans? Did they murder everybody? It just kind of seems like they were doing a thing that legally is a part of the election, like, having a recount, waiting to seat the elected leader until you do the recount. Is that the same as killing millions of people in factories of death?
13:32 Speaker 02 There needs to be a swear jar for people who abuse the Niemuller poem.
13:36 Robert Evans? Yeah, yeah.
13:37 Speaker 02 You need to put a dollar in the jar because that was not appropriate.
13:40 Robert Evans? I think anytime you reference it, you have to lose like, it should be like a Yakuza thing where you have to give up one of the joints of a finger. Right? And maybe that'll cause people to be like a lot more careful about when they deploy that bad boy.
13:52 Speaker 02 I heard in closing arguments at a trial last month, a trial for a man who is a white nationalist. His lawyer's argument was, you know, with this, this is free speech or trying him for his free speech. And in his closing arguments, he's, you know, he refers to the Niemuller poem. Except, you know, the poem starts, first they came for the communists and I said nothing because I was not a communist. Then they came for the Jews and I said nothing because I was not a Jew. And he says he's going to quote the poem, but he says, first they came for one group.
14:21 Robert Evans? Yeah.
14:21 Speaker 02 And then they came for another group. And it's like, what were the groups?
14:24 Robert Evans? Anyone who goes for any group is a Nazi.
14:27 Speaker 02 What were the groups, Terry?
14:28 Robert Evans? Yeah. First they came for the Nazis and I did not speak out because I was not a Nazi.
14:36 Robert Evans? Oh, man, it's, it's, it's very funny. Okay, so, uh, let's get back into it. Newt served as the Republican Speaker of the House from 1995 to 99. Gingrich was the architect of the Republican victory in the 1994 congressional election, which legitimately set the stage for nearly everything the right has been able to accomplish since. Without the contract with America and his retaking of the House, it's possible we see, it's possible that we see no George W. Bush presidency, no right wing Supreme Court today. And at least a lot less of a right wing drift on behalf of the Democrats who stumbled to fight him, right?
15:15 Robert Evans? This is a major move in US politics. I don't think a lot of folks who, you know, whose awareness of politics has sort of started since the Trump years know much about this, but you had, you know, slick Willie stop George H. W. Bush from getting a second term. It drove, drove these people crazy. You have briefly the Democrats in control of government and then in 94, Newt leads, I think they, they pick up 54 House seats. It's this massive sweep. Victory that comes with this thing called the contract with America, which is basically Newt introducing what becomes kind of the neo con platform, right? And and this is like a really, I mean, it's it's one of the most important moments in modern electoral history, right?
16:00 Robert Evans? Newt is one of the first conservatives to see a real promise in creating a right wing system of education to push conservative values. In 1993, he crafted a college course taught at Reinhardt College called Renewing American Civilization. We're looking at this as like sort of a proto. What's that fucking guy? Who does the the little kids TV bullshit?
16:26 Speaker 02 Oh, like the Prager University?
16:27 Robert Evans? Prager University, right? This is a precursor to Prager University, right?
16:31 Speaker 02 I mean, he was on the Hillsdale track.
16:33 Robert Evans? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it's eventually televised in a cable channel called Mind Extension University.
16:38 Speaker 02 I don't like that.
16:39 Robert Evans? Yeah, you got to extend your mind. Now, obviously, he was a ferocious opponent of gay rights and the degradation of American values in the modern era. He talked a lot about how, you know, people today, especially because of, you know, Democrats gaining such cultural dominance are just, you know, awful compared to, you know, the glorious greatest generation who really understood morality. He also cheated on his second wife with a staffer who became his third wife while he was advocating for the impeachment of Bill Clinton over infidelity. Now, this should not have been surprising to anyone who knew that in 1989, in an interview with the Washington Post, he explained that he fought with his second wife, not because
17:22 Robert Evans? it mattered to him what they were fighting about, but because he had a habit of dominance that had been stoked by his time in politics. He estimated to the Post that his marriage had a 53 to 47% chance of making it.
17:38 Robert Evans? Oh, man. Family values.
17:43 Speaker 02 Fifty-three, forty-seven. I mean, that's
17:46 Speaker 02 I wouldn't bet on those odds.
17:47 Robert Evans? Fascinating, fascinating odds to give your own marriage. Now, Newt has a long and fascinating history, and I do recommend reading that. There's a 2012 Mother Jones article with some of his best quotes that we'll link in the show notes. If you want a better understanding of the man, though, you know, that's, that's, that's a good way of getting it. But for our purposes today, we're going to be focusing on the novel 1945, which he co-authored. It is set in an alternate world where the US defeated Japan, but Hitler never declared war on the US. And so we never got involved in a war with Germany. The Nazis won their war with the Soviets. They took most of their European holdings and forced them to accept a peace. They then boxed the Brits into a corner.
18:31 Robert Evans? A few years later, they carried out a surprise attack on the United States in order to kill our nuclear scientists and stop the completion of what in our universe we know as the Manhattan Project. Now, because of where this takes place, I, I'll spoil it for you, Molly. This book centers around the Waffen SS invading East Tennessee. That, that's what this book is about.
18:52 Speaker 02 How did they get all the way to Tennessee?
18:54 Robert Evans? They've got their wonder weapons. They've got these, Newt is again, he's like a History Channel, history buff, right? So a huge part of this book is like the Nazis building all of these wonder weapons that were mostly theoretical during the actual war, including this like massive, you know, bombing type plane that they had, they had kind of been talking about making that probably never would have worked out. Like, it's all sorts of like nonsense sci-fi weapons, right?
19:22 Speaker 02 And what did they want with Tennessee specifically?
19:24 Robert Evans? It's where the nuclear program was headed.
19:26 Speaker 02 That's not true.
19:27 Robert Evans? Well, actually, I think it was initially before they moved to Los Alamos. I think they had, it was somewhere in like the, the southeast before they moved to Los Alamos, that they had like the early stages of the nuclear program. And I think he's just kind of positing a much more primitive nuclear program. But I'm going to pull up the book, Molly, because at this point you should see this bad boy. Look at this. Look at this.
19:50 Speaker 02 Look at that cover art.
19:52 Robert Evans? There we go. There we go.
19:54 Speaker 02 Beautiful cover art.
19:55 Robert Evans? Look at the size of his name there.
19:59 Speaker 02 It looks like the book is called Newt Gingrich.
20:01 Robert Evans? Newt Gingrich, 1945. Yeah, like it's a book about a two-year-old Newt Gingrich.
20:08 Speaker 02 And it kind of has like a sci-fi feel to it. If you're a listener, you know, if you're not watching this on YouTube, um, I don't ever go to youtube.com. I'm not watching this on YouTube.
20:16 Robert Evans? No, you shouldn't.
20:16 Speaker 02 The cover of the book is on the book's Wikipedia page and it has kind of a sci-fi vibe to it.
20:21 Robert Evans? Yeah. Now I want you to look at the back here. First off, Newt's smaller than I expected. When you see him in a photo like this, this is a picture of him with his co-author, William R. Forstchen, uh, and with Jim Bain, who is the owner of Bain Publishing. And we're going to be talking a lot about Bain Publishing. I also-
20:39 Speaker 02 Is that related to Bain Capital or Bain the Batman villain?
20:43 Robert Evans? No, not at all. Spelled differently.
20:45 Speaker 02 Okay.
20:45 Robert Evans? Uh, has not broken Batman's back. I do, I do really like the Hitler on the back here. You can see him here. He's, he just looks so happy.
20:56 Speaker 02 You hold it up to me. Camera, wrong camera, other camera.
21:00 Robert Evans? Ah, it's, it's hard to figure out here.
21:02 Speaker 02 Toward, yeah, that way.
21:03 Robert Evans? Yeah, there we go.
21:04 Speaker 02 Wow.
21:06 Robert Evans? That's a good Hitler. Look at him. Look at him.
21:08 Speaker 02 Good choice. Newt Gingrich is six feet tall. How big are those other men?
21:14 Robert Evans? Oh, wow. Cause yeah, I, I thought he was actually tall. So these guys, so I think it's William Forstchen is just kind of a fucking, uh, mountain of a man. Yeah. He's gotta be like six, three, six, four. It's a big guy. Jim Bain, not a big guy. Also has the, I, I, and I say this with all love to pornographers. He has the smile of a pornographer, right? Like, look at that. That's a man who's looking at you naked. Like, there's no, there's no, there's no other way to describe the look on Jim Bain's face. Speaking of people who look at you naked, our sponsors don't. They would never do that. They're, they're gentlemen, you know?
21:54 Robert Evans? Uh, or gentle thems, uh, because I think they probably don't identify as a binary gender, given that they are corporations. Raytheon is definitely non-binary. Yes. Speaking of non-binary, here's more ads.
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23:49 Robert Evans? And we're back. So I want to get into the book jacket of this, of this mamajama. Let's, let's see what this is about. And you can tell right away on the inside, this was in 1995, 24 US dollars.
24:04 Speaker 02 That is kinda pricey.
24:07 Robert Evans? Way, way too much money to spend on Newt Gingrich's 1945. Holy shit.
24:12 Speaker 02 29.99 for that hardback today would be pushing it.
24:16 Robert Evans? Yeah, yeah, this is like, maybe like a $15 book. Man, that's a lot. That's a lot. So, introducing Lieutenant Commander James Martell. He's the right man in the right place at a very bad time. The year is 1945. In Europe, the Third Reich reigns triumphant. The Soviet Union is a fragment of its former self and Britain has accepted a dictated armistice. In the Pacific, after a brief, sharp war with Japan, America is the only significant military presence. Now the world's two superpowers aye each other warily across an Atlantic Ocean that daily grows smaller. The big show is about to start. Who will win? The Americans with their formidable industrial base and superior logistical techniques?
25:01 Robert Evans? Or the Germans with their science fiction super weapons that turn out not to be fictional after all? Only one thing is certain. If America is beaten, this alternative Reich will last a thousand years. Join Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich and fellow historian William R. Forstmann in a world that, save for Adolf Hitler's inexplicable folly in prematurely declaring war on the United States in 1941, would have been.
25:29 Speaker 02 Just revisiting the timeline here. So he's not writing this in his spare time, like in his retirement?
25:35 Robert Evans? No, this is, he's Speaker of the House. This is, this is a year after he like orchestrates a complete upending of US electoral politics.
25:44 Speaker 02 So shouldn't he be focusing on like the government?
25:46 Robert Evans? No, no. I think we can all agree this was a better use of his time than doing his job. I else, I just find it very funny that he describes himself and his co-author as fellow historians? Because as a spoiler, they are not. Neither of them are historians. Well, Forstmann is a little bit of a historian, but he's like a historian who went immediately into writing alternate histories. He is a professor of history at Montreat College in North Carolina. But that's not a real college. Yeah.
26:21 Robert Evans? Look, I'll give a, I'll give a partial to Forstchen, right? Because again, he spends most of his career, like, his, his, his big job is writing a bunch of articles for Boys Life Magazine, as well as young adult novels. And does that make you a real historian? Ah, I'm gonna put that, I'm gonna put that on the cusp. But fucking Newt Gingrich certainly is not a real historian. Uh, Forstchen's main publisher was Bain, who back in the early to mid 1990s was a major purveyor of pulp, of pulp sci-fi and alternate history books. That changed as a result of 1945, which due to Gingrich's star power was expected to be a major hit. You can tell that just, just by the look of this cover, right? Newt's name is massive, they're charging 24 fucking dollars for this thing?
27:06 Robert Evans? And, yeah, it's a catastrophe, Molly. It's one of the greatest disasters in fucking alt-history publishing. If you read online forums where alt-history fans discuss this book, the rumors, credible ones, are that Newt promised Bain he was going to devote a lot of time using his platform. Newt is a famous PR hound, right? He's constantly talking to the Washington Post. He's willing to say, like, shitty stuff about himself to them, as we've kind of covered earlier, because his attitude is, "I should always be in the Post," right? So Bain is like, "Well, old Newt, he knows how to get all the attention we need to move some real copies. Let's buy, like, 100,000 copies of this fucking book."
27:48 Speaker 02 No book sells 100,000 copies.
27:50 Robert Evans? I know, it's so funny. And, yeah, Newt fails to, to do the actual PR that he had promised to do, and as a result, 1945 is one of the biggest flops in publishing history. According to the Washington Post, "For every 100 copies of this book that were sent out by Bain, 81 were returned unsold, leaving the publisher with almost 100,000 copies sitting around their warehouse. The scuttlebutt is that this was such a flop, it nearly killed Bain entirely. While I was doing my preresearch for this episode, I found a thread on a forum titled "alternatehistory.com" from 2007. Users speculated about why the sequel never came to pass." One user BCO wrote, 1945 practically bankrupted Bane books.
28:35 Robert Evans? They assumed a prominent figure as Gingrich would lead to huge sales, printed up a lot of books, couldn't sell many of them. The idea of a sequel was out of the question. Another user, Amerigo Vespucci, replied with added context. To make matters worse, there was a falling out between Jim Bane and Forstmann over creative differences in the story. In part, Forstmann wrote the story as a single volume, but in order to better capitalize on the name on the cover, Bane split it into two volumes. There were other differences as well, and Bane never really discussed the matter in public. It left a bad taste in his mouth. Even with Bane's passing, I doubt we'll ever see the second volume. There'd be too many legal problems surrounding it. Your best bet might be to wait 20 years or so until Forstmann is dead too. He is still alive.
29:18 Robert Evans? Enter a law school to become a crackerjack lawyer and publicist, and then start negotiations to have the second volume released from his estate. I love the thought of a man who's that dedicated to a 1945 sequel.
29:29 Speaker 02 I need to know how it ends.
29:30 Robert Evans? The 30-year plan to get that book.
29:34 Speaker 02 Does Hitler die?
29:36 Robert Evans? Hitler is still alive.
29:37 Speaker 02 That's what I'm saying, like in the sequel, how does it end for Hitler?
29:40 Robert Evans? I think the way this book is supposed to explain things with Hitler is that like, he's in a horrible plane crash in 41, and so he gets all fucked up, and his people are able to like negotiate a peace with the USSR. And as a result, he kind of loses his mind, like he's just like this damaged, broken figure of a man in the book.
30:02 Speaker 02 But he was so mentally normal before.
30:04 Robert Evans? Yeah, he was doing so great before. Because this is an alt-history thing, and because Newt is the kind of dude that he is, the main Nazi in this is a guy named Otto Skorzeny, who is, a lot of people, he was a real guy. He was one of the fathers of like modern special forces tactics, like Skorzeny is a major figure in the development of like that kind of shit. I did find in a, there's a fucking Orlando Sentinel book review that says that he died during an attack on Crete, which is not true. He lived until the 70s. He moved to Spain so that Franco would protect him, and he lived. Fairly long life for a dude like him.
30:43 Robert Evans? But yeah, I wanted to start here with one of the most, probably the most famous passage in this book, right? The opening scene, which features a high-powered DC politician who happens to be, if I'm not mistaken, the Speaker of the House.
30:59 Speaker 02 So we got a self-insert, yes.
31:02 Robert Evans? This is Newt's self-insert, and remember, 1995, this is right around when Newt Gingrich is attacking Clinton and saying that he should be impeached.
31:11 Speaker 02 Does he describe his self-insert character as like very handsome?
31:15 Robert Evans? He describes his self-insert character as having an affair while he, as the real Speaker of the House, was in this moment having an affair.
31:24 Speaker 02 Okay, you have some honesty.
31:25 Robert Evans? And specifically, the point of this chapter is his self-insert character hands over the secret to a Nazi spy, who is the person he's having an affair with, that the US is working on creating an atomic weapon. Like, the inciting incident in this is his self-insert being compromised and giving up nuclear secrets in order to get laid.
31:48 Speaker 02 And he is in the real world the Speaker of the House?
31:51 Robert Evans? The Speaker of the House and having an affair with a staffer.
31:53 Speaker 02 That just doesn't sound trustworthy to me.
31:54 Robert Evans? It's amazing stuff. September 1st, 1945, Washington DC. Also, I don't know why they do this, but they spell prologue wrong?
32:05 Speaker 02 That's not one of the ways to spell that.
32:07 Robert Evans? At the end of this, I've only ever seen it spelled with an E at the end of it. I don't understand why they're doing it this way. "But darling, Germany and the United States are not at war. What harm is there if we share the occasional bit of gossip? Surely you don't think that I, a loyal Swede..." The question trailed off in a lethal pout as his beautiful and so very exotic mistress stretched languidly, mock innocent appeal in her eyes. Still, he mustn't let her see just how much she moved him. A relationship had to have some balance. He stretched in turn, reached out for his cigarettes and gold-plated Ronson on the Art Deco nightstand with its Tiffany lamp.
32:46 Robert Evans? Since he wasn't sure what to say, he made a production out of lighting up and enjoying that first luxurious after-bout inhalation. What an unsexy way of talking about the aftermath of sex.
32:59 Speaker 02 Just to say, prologue, no E, is a declarative programming language designed for developing logic-based AI applications.
33:08 Robert Evans? I think that, okay, so this is, oh, maybe this is what OpenAI used to create their AI. Is it all based on Newt Gingrich's 1945?
33:17 Speaker 02 That's exactly what I was saying, yeah, that's exactly what I was saying.
33:18 Robert Evans? What a nightmare, what a hideous, hideous nightmare. So, he's having after-sex smokes with this lady who's very obviously a Nazi spy.
33:29 Speaker 02 Yeah, she's not even being kind of sly about it. She's like, what if we just, if you really love me, you'd tell me national defense information?
33:35 Robert Evans? Yeah, yeah. Now, here is Newt, not at all talking about his actual marriage and actual infidelity. Playfully, to drive home the potential loss, she bit his shoulder, then kissed it better. "Ah, hell, I don't want to. I wish I could just divorce Miss Little Goody Two Shoes. I like this arrangement," she laughed softly. "Mistress to the Chief of Staff of the President of the Uni-" Oh, sorry, the Chief of Staff. So, it's not exactly him, right? It's just basically him. "Uh, nice title, don't you think? Such a book I could write," Mayhew shuddered at the thought. "Don't even joke about it, but he could trust her to be discreet? He was sure he could trust her." More to cover his moment of doubt than for any other reason, he harked back to her initial gambit. "One thing we really don't
34:18 Robert Evans? have to worry about is a war between Germany and the United States. It just isn't in the cards. There's no way it could happen within the next year or so. And after that, well, take it from me, but nobody is going to dream of messing with the United States, not even Adolf Hitler. I don't think there's going to be a war either, but you seem so sure. What is your big secret? You were so excited about it when you came in here, and now you won't tell me." Suddenly, the pouting sex kitten gave way to Diana the Huntress. "Tell me," she hissed. Mayhew looked at his delicious interrogator. For a moment, her intensity almost frightened him. Then he was overcome by it, by her. His had been a strict and starchy upbringing, and his marriage had not been born of love but of political opportunity, though his wife didn't know that. So he capitulated. Besides, he wanted to tell, what good were
35:03 Robert Evans? secrets if you couldn't share? Okay, I surrender." "Lucky for you," she purred, then laughed. "Such games we have," she whispered in his ear. "You play wonderfully. Now, tell." Having given it, characteristically, he stalled. "Sure, you're not looking for a story for your Swedish newspaper?" She just looked at him. He could tell she was tiring of the delay. And then he tells her that we're making a nuke.
35:26 Speaker 02 He must have missed the annual training that they give men in the government that, like, beautiful women do not want to talk politics with you with their tops off. Beautiful women just aren't doing that.
35:38 Robert Evans? No, they never would. Uh, I think that's very funny. I think there's so much, so many, so much off-putting language in this book. Like Newt, thinking of Newt Gingrich writing the word sex kitten gives me like, physical shivers up and down my spine, and it should do the same to you. But you know what doesn't make me shiver?
35:58 Speaker 01 How cute my dog is in the background of this video?
36:00 Speaker 02 Oh, Anderson is looking very good down there.
36:02 Robert Evans? That gives me a little shiver. That gives me a little shiver.
36:04 Speaker 01 But like a joy shiver, right?
36:06 Robert Evans? Yeah, joy shiver, you know, share, why not? Uh, the products and services that support our pod.
36:14 Speaker 01 But do they support my dog?
36:17 Robert Evans? Uh, no, they're neutral. They're neutral. They're cat people.
36:21 Speaker 01 She left.
36:22 Robert Evans? Uh huh.
36:23 Speaker 01 The second you said no, she left.
36:25 Robert Evans? Yeah, wow.
36:27 Speaker 02 Stand your ground, Anderson.
36:28 Robert Evans? Stand your ground.
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38:52 Speaker 02 You can really tell this is election day.
38:54 Robert Evans? Yeah, we're really, we're half-assing our 1945 episode.
39:01 Speaker 02 I can't wait to find out what happens when she doesn't do anything with that secret.
39:06 Robert Evans? Yeah, well, she does, and Hitler invades East Tennessee.
39:13 Speaker 02 Which is funny, because there is a guy who does love Hitler, who has a compound in East Tennessee.
39:18 Robert Evans? There's a lot, Molly, there's more than one guy who loves Hitler and has a compound in East Tennessee.
39:27 Robert Evans? So, there's a Gizmodo article I found called "Newt Gingrich Should Go Back to Writing Science Fiction",
39:33 Speaker 02 Yes, he should.
39:34 Robert Evans? Kind of urging him to finish this book.
39:38 Robert Evans? It has some interesting stuff to say about this piece of fiction. In any case, whether 1945 is as historically dodgy as many have claimed, it contains several vital elements of total awesomeness. For one thing, the triumphant Nazi Germany spends its time developing what the back cover describes as science fiction super weapons. You think I'm kidding? How about rockets that are remotely guided via television cameras, or superjets with drop tanks to provide ground support, plus super rockets and hydrogen-powered submarines? Plus every villain-
40:07 Speaker 02 You can't put "super" in front of a real thing.
40:09 Robert Evans? You gotta stick "super" in front of it, otherwise people won't know that it's better than the normal kind of thing. Every villain in this book is hideous and crazy.
40:18 Robert Evans? At some point, Scorsini gets injured and loses an eye, so he can get an eye patch, or maybe some kind of cyborg guy. In this passage, our hero, the square jawed Jim Martel, tries to shoot down Scorsini's plane and fails. Now, ammunition gone, he can only watch as the second and then the third plane lifted off. Unlike the second plane, the third stayed low as the pilot pushed it in just enough left rudder to cause the plane to crab onto the edge of the grass strips that it passed by not 20 feet away from where Jim stood. Otto Scorsini looked down, grinning demonically, and James Martel finally understood the meaning of hatred. There's apparently like three or four times where a character learns the meaning of hatred, and that's because Newt Gingrich as an educator likes it when people expand their minds.
41:01 Robert Evans? For a little bit more coverage of some of the awkward lines in this book, I'm gonna turn to an Orlando Sentinel piece titled "As a Writer, Gingrich Makes a Good Politician." Good title for a book review. 1945 is cluttered with awkward lines like, "The exhaust vapors that swirled in through the car's open windows stank like hell itself." Then there's this, "The scene brought to Martel's mind, the absurd image of a cobra tenderly protecting a baby." Much of the pre-pulp-
41:30 Speaker 02 What's bringing that to mind?
41:32 Robert Evans? Why would that bring that to mind? Have you ever seen that? Is that a thing you can picture because you've witnessed it?
41:39 Speaker 02 You know what this reminds me of?
41:41 Robert Evans? Yeah, you know what this reminds me of? A thing no one's ever seen.
41:46 Robert Evans? Much of the, yeah, it's very funny. Much of the pre-publication hoopla surrounding 1945 involved its supposedly steamy sex scenes, some of which were exerted, excerpted last year in the New York Times Magazine when the book was still in draft form. Gingrich vowed to tone down the sex. He succeeded. For example, in bed with his, yeah, I mean, we just read that passage, but I love that there were leaks of this that were too horny and he had to change the final draft. There's also a lot of-
42:16 Speaker 02 Who was leaking these? Is this-
42:18 Robert Evans? It's gotta be nude, right? Who else would leak these, right?
42:22 Speaker 02 He's just testing the water. How horny can we get?
42:25 Robert Evans? A good amount of George H.W. Bush slander in this. Gingrich talks about like, has a character who knew him when he was a pilot, because George H.W. Bush fought in World War II, who says, "If you needed someone to lead a group straight into enemy flak, he was your man." Which is funny, because he was in fact shot down during the war. And he had to also edit those portions to be nicer to George H.W. Bush, which is cowardly nude. Like, you, you, you've blown up any sort of legitimacy your book had when you do stuff like that. Anyway, I want to move to a passage midway through the book that's set in Winston Churchill's office, because one of the things that happens, while the Germans invade East Tennessee, Rommel conducts a landing in Scotland.
43:09 Speaker 02 Of course.
43:10 Robert Evans? They're moving down through Scotland.
43:12 Speaker 02 The desert fox is going to the moors.
43:14 Robert Evans? No one, no one's, no one better to conduct a war of the Scottish moors than the desert fox. Just port the Africa Corps right on over. They'll appreciate the breeze.
43:27 Robert Evans? So I want to talk about this, just because there's a little bit here that's kind of relevant to modern politics. Here's Winston Churchill talking, and one of his aides says-
43:37 Speaker 02 Rommel and I both made the same face, but we're like, oh no.
43:41 Robert Evans? He's talking to one of his aides, a guy named Andrew. "For my part, I have ordered a secret alert for the Royal Air Force, starting at midnight. Also, the Army will move on spring maneuver schedule up so as to increase troop strengths throughout England. I'm also going to make a speech before the House next week accusing Hitler of preparing to launch an attack against us. Winston, I wish you wouldn't do that. Why? Because the America First crowd will go to town on you, that's why. They'd claim it was part of an ongoing plot to drag us into yet another European conflict. They'll say it was a repeat of what you and Roosevelt tried to do in 40 and 41. They'll say you're deliberately trying to provoke Hitler, that you came back to office intending to do just that, to finally drag us into a showdown with Germany. If you make that speech, I won't be able to back you up."
44:25 Robert Evans? A cold, static-laden silence was the only response. "Even Roosevelt didn't start to move openly until after the 40 elections, you know," Andrew continued after a moment's pause. "You know that I agreed with him 100%. I could see the threat as far back as the denouncement of Versailles and the move into the Rhineland. I knew then, and I know now, that the maniac son of a bitch would never stop on his own, and that nothing short of a full-scale war with the United States could stop him. We should have been in it back in 41. If it hadn't been for that damned accident, he'd have declared war on us after Pearl Harbor. He all but told me that himself. In 41, we'd have won easily. Now he's 10 times more dangerous." I just love that the America First guys are the bad guy in 1995, and fucking Gingrich is absolutely going to wind up on that side here.
45:08 Robert Evans? Yeah, now, there's a couple other fun moments in another chapter, not long after this. We go to Rommel, talking with some of his people, and there's a line here that's very funny. "Americans would be startled to discover the degree of camaraderie that existed not just between different ranks within the German officer corps, but between officers and rankers. Though the practice had its roots in the mutinous conditions prevalent in the German military at the end of the Great War, perhaps Germans could afford the informality because German society was so thoroughly status-conscious, whereas Americans, so unready to grant superiority to anybody, needed the outward manifestations of rank, because otherwise they would lose track of who issued orders and who took them."
45:52 Robert Evans? It's an interesting description of American culture.
45:56 Speaker 02 Oh, Newt. And a strange read of Germans. I don't know that there was informality in the ranks.
46:02 Robert Evans? Yeah, informality in the German military. I think he's trying to talk about like Auftrags Taktik, which was this kind of anti, it was this kind of flattening of military hierarchies in certain specific ways that came about as a result of like combat in World War I, where you were saying basically like unit leading officers should have a lot of freedom to like conduct advances and kind of carry out attacks in a way that sort of they see fit rather than having to follow orders to the letter from above, right? It was
46:34 Speaker 02 I just don't know that that translated into sort of the social culture of the German people.
46:38 Robert Evans? I would say the German military was particularly informal between officers and civilians, especially since like the Prussian younger officer class was still a major part of the German military in this period.
46:49 Speaker 02 So what happens when they get to Tennessee? Is it like a ground invasion?
46:53 Robert Evans? Uh, I think they, I mean, they come in from the air, right?
46:56 Speaker 02 Of course, yeah.
46:57 Robert Evans? And then, I mean, I can tell you what happens, which is that Sergeant Alvin York and a bunch of elderly veterans, uh, form a militia and stop the Nazis.
47:06 Speaker 02 Oh, wow.
47:07 Robert Evans? Largely that's who saves the day. Cause Newt's got to have his like pro second amendment stuff. So he like puts it in the mouth of like Sergeant, an elderly Sergeant York fighting off the Waffen SS.
47:17 Speaker 02 The old men of Appalachia, just like band together.
47:21 Robert Evans? Look.
47:21 Speaker 02 Okay, I can buy that, honestly.
47:22 Robert Evans? I can buy that. I mean, the Waffen SS, the Waffen SS proved in the actual World War II that they were not very good at fighting an insurgency. And I think that Appalachia is worse terrain to fight an insurgency than anywhere in Western Russia. Um, so I'm going to say, yeah, probably, probably that would have gone bad for the Nazis.
47:43 Speaker 02 See, this could conceivably have been an interesting alternate history. The Waffen SS trying to like fight their way town to town through Appalachia and just getting their shit wrecked.
47:51 Robert Evans? Well, the problem with this book, because that isn't it, that's a book I would read, especially if someone
47:56 Speaker 02 I would like that.
47:56 Robert Evans? Someone less problematic like Harry Turtledove had written the fucker. Um, but that's not. Not like nude, actually nude and Forstchen kind of fall for a a standard pitfall in in writing fiction here, writing particularly like speculative past fiction is you have this point that's the actual thing that you want to get that's actually interesting, which is like a an insurgent war in Appalachia between the Nazis and like elderly American World War One veterans.
48:27 Robert Evans? That's a fun premise, but you don't get to it until the very end of the book, right? By the end of the book, Hitler's, you know, geared up for a full scale invasion and we're actually getting ready to have like, you know, that he set up like a naval conflict between like US carrier groups and Nazi, like the German Navy. Like, there's a lot of cool stuff that's happening by the end potentially, but it's not really a part of the story because he feels the need to like go back much for like, you should always start a book at the thing that's most interesting to you, right? Like, you don't actually want to waste a lot of time building up to that, even if you're like, well, people are gonna want to know how we got here. No, they're not. They don't give a shit. Start at whatever's most interesting, you know?
49:09 Robert Evans? It's a rookie mistake. Maybe if if Newt hadn't been so busy being the Speaker of the House, he'd have been able to get it right.
49:15 Speaker 02 So what you're saying is the sequel is probably a banger and we need to get it.
49:18 Robert Evans? I think the sequel is a banger. It was all apparently intended to be one book that's too long.
49:24 Robert Evans? But yeah, you know, I don't know. Uh, we probably don't need to go through this whole thing, especially because I it's the election. And I don't, I don't feel great.
49:35 Speaker 02 I do like that he named his protagonist Jim Martell, right? That's very Charles Martell, you know?
49:41 Robert Evans? It's a fine name. Uh, yeah.
49:44 Speaker 02 It's a charlie means dad.
49:46 Robert Evans? Yeah, yeah. Also played by Christopher, uh, what's his name? From the Lord of the Rings. Um, I don't know. I think I'm good on this book.
49:57 Robert Evans? We hit 45 minutes, right? That's all we owe you on our, on our off week. This is an off week. We're taking, we're taking a breather. Uh, we're trying not to focus too much on the news because nothing interesting is going to happen yet. You in the future know, so just scream at past Robert and Molly about what happened.
50:16 Speaker 02 Uh, and if I don't get any message from the future, I will assume that we all die this week.
50:21 Robert Evans? Yeah.
50:22 Speaker 02 So please do send a message.
50:23 Robert Evans? This is it for the whole world. Uh, thank God. Thank goodness. Anyway, Molly, how do you feel about the alternate past? What's, what's your favorite? World War II counterfactual? Do you spend much time thinking about like, for example, what if the Germans hadn't invaded Russia, but had focused all of their military might on North Africa? You know?
50:46 Speaker 02 As a woman, Robert, I'm going to say, no, I have never thought about that in my life.
50:50 Robert Evans? That's a shame. I spent a lot of time doing World War II counterfactuals.
50:53 Speaker 02 Now I could run, get my partner. I think he probably could talk about this for hours. I think this is a thing that men like to think about.
51:00 Robert Evans? Oh, yeah.
51:01 Speaker 02 But no, no, I have, I have never considered this.
51:04 Robert Evans? So are you more of a World War, one counterfactual guy? Like what if, what if Serbia had, had taken over the Austro Hungarian empire? What if, what if by World War II, the great land power in Europe was the Serbian empire?
51:19 Speaker 02 What if? I'm always, I'm always asking myself like that. So aren't you always asking about that?
51:25 Robert Evans? I'll tell, I'll tell you one thing. We never would have stopped putting cigarettes in movies, right? If Serbia is like a China sized, like market for American television and film, cigarettes don't ever get cut out of Hollywood, you know? Uh, so that's good. That's my, that's my prediction. Um, anyway.
51:46 Speaker 02 Molly, do you have anything you want to plug? Yeah, you should listen to my podcast, Weird Little Guys. Assuming no acts of terrorism happened this week, I won't have any new news to cover in there, but each week we-
51:58 Robert Evans? Hey, there have already been five bomb threats against polling locations in Georgia.
52:03 Speaker 02 Oh, they did pick up a guy the other day with an armed bomb about to blow up the power grid in Nashville. So it does keep happening. I'll never run off guys-
52:11 Robert Evans? I'm not gonna say there will be no acts of terrorism.
52:15 Speaker 02 Yeah, well, you can tune into Weird Little Guys to hear about these kind of weird little guys who do things like that.
52:22 Robert Evans? Yeah. Speaking of weird little guys, Newt Gingrich, probably a lot littler because he's extremely old now. So he's weird.
52:30 Speaker 02 Check out Newt's wife's Instagram. She photo shops her face to be completely smooth in every picture. It's incredible.
52:37 Robert Evans? Beautiful. And presumably, if this book is true, she's plying him for nuclear secrets.
52:44 Speaker 02 She used to be the-
52:45 Robert Evans? You know what?
52:46 Speaker 02 The ambassador to the Vatican. She's not anymore, I reckon.
52:49 Robert Evans? Wow, that is what a do-nothing job.
52:51 Speaker 02 I know.
52:52 Robert Evans? Make me ambassador to the Vatican. Because you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna get into those catacombs. I'm gonna steal some saints' bones, you know? I'm gonna have a whole necklace made out of the bones of saints.
53:02 Speaker 02 Dream bigger. I'm getting the chronovisor.
53:05 Robert Evans? Oh, oh, wow.
53:07 Speaker 02 Yeah, the Pope's time machine.
53:08 Robert Evans? Yeah, yeah, of course, of course.
53:12 Speaker 01 Anyways, hopefully-
53:13 Robert Evans? The Pope has a time machine.
53:14 Speaker 01 Hopefully things are-
53:17 Robert Evans? I love, I love the idea that the Pope has a time machine because my imagination is, rather than doing like anything that would help the Catholic Church, he just repeatedly goes back in time to like put a thumbnail on Martin Luther's chair. Like, he's just constantly fucking with Martin Luther a little bit.
53:32 Speaker 02 I don't think the chronovisor allows you to manipulate the past only to view it.
53:37 Robert Evans? Oh, well, then I would go look at dinosaurs.
53:41 Speaker 02 Obviously. Obviously, Robert.
53:43 Robert Evans? That's the only thing I would be interested. I'm proud to say I wouldn't stop any historical crimes with a time machine. I'm doing nothing but dinosaur-related stuff if I get access to a time machine.
53:56 Speaker 02 Yeah.
53:57 Robert Evans? Yeah. Anyway.
53:58 Speaker 02 That's what I'm doing.
53:59 Robert Evans? Go have sex with Newt Gingrich and get secrets from him.
54:03 Speaker 02 I don't think he even has any secrets anymore.
54:05 Robert Evans? Yeah, well, there's only one way to learn.
54:08 Speaker 01 I hope future everybody is okay.
54:10 Robert Evans? Yeah.
54:11 Speaker 01 Goodbye.
54:11 Robert Evans? Okay, and, you know, wear a rubber. You don't know where Newt's been.
54:14 Speaker 01 Jesus Christ.
54:15 Robert Evans? Newt doesn't know where Newt's been at this point.
54:21 Speaker 01 Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel, youtube.com/AtBehindTheBastards.
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Previous We Read Marjorie Taylor Green's Book Next It Could Happen Here Weekly 159 Page updated November 6, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated
