Julian Clary on easing anxiety: “I just forgot to have a panic attack!”

Can laughter ease anxiety? Comedian Julian Clary certainly thinks so. After living through some incredibly dark events and anxious times, he’s decided to choose to laugh and think positive thoughts. In this chat with Fearne, Julian talks about feeling naturally happier and more comfortable in his skin as he got older. Most things, he says, just aren’t as important as you think they are, and that’s a freeing realisation. Julian also explains why he’s embraced causing outrage and even offence. Fearne and Julian share how they’ve each combatted poor sleep, and the sleeping aids, medications, and techniques that have worked for them. Plus, Julian’s not a massive fan of therapy, so he turns the tables on Fearne and quizzes her about her experience of it... A Fistful of Clary, Julian’s western-themed stand-up tour, will be heading out round the UK from 30th April. Get your tickets now: julianclary.co.uk http://julianclary.co.uk/ If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Olly Alexander https://pod.fo/e/28dfd0 David Tennant https://pod.fo/e/271446 Scott Mills https://pod.fo/e/28c18d Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To mark it, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:28Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, a massive welcome to Happy Place with me, Fern Cotton. This is the show that embraces laughter in difficult moments in life. Today, I'm chatting to Julian Clary.

• 0:39Speaker 02

  It would be unusual if you hadn't had loss. I mean, I did happen to live through that difficult time where lots of people were dying of AIDS and there was an incongruity with being a comedian and that was your job, going out to make people laugh when awful things are happening at home. But that's the great therapy of comedy is that you can only, and that's why I like being on stage, it's such an escape, you know, because your brain can only think about one thing at a time. So for those few hours, I was in a happy place.

• 1:12Fearne Cotton?

  Do you want to hear about a great parenting fail I did the other day? Of course you do. So I thought, I know what I'll do with my kids, because I want them to be off screens, basically get them out the house, do anything. I booked one of those terrifying tree top experiences where you do sort of, you like walk on rope ladders really high up and stuff like that. And I booked, by accident, here's the fail part, because otherwise it would have been lovely, the adult course rather than the child friendly one. And I got there and my nine-year-old was like, you've booked the kid one, right? I was like, hmm, was there that option? I think I just pressed the thing that said book. Get there, I've booked the adult one, she's already freaking out, but my son who's 12 is desperate to do it. Me and my daughter get up there, my son is running around this thing. We are so high up.

• 1:57Fearne Cotton?

  Every time you step on a wobbly bit of wood, your brain says, what are you doing? You should not be up here. My daughter was having a slight nervous breakdown, I was having a panic attack, but inside, pretending I was cool so that she wasn't totally shitting. herself and we had to just stay up there. You can't get down. You can't get, once you're up there, you cannot get down. So for an hour and a half, we, I'm playing like a mental, it's like a mental marathon of stay calm in the face of my daughter who's terrified. We somehow managed to do it. There was some extremely hairy moments, a bit where you have to sort of scale across a rope wall. There's people playing crazy golf below you. I mean, it was a nightmare. Got down. I was so filled with adrenaline that I then, this

• 2:40Fearne Cotton?

  was actually quite a good bit, got in a cab and I had the giggles for about half an hour. It was kind of, it was sort of therapy, actually. It was like, uh, what do you call it? Exposure therapy. I was exposed to my fears. They were terrifying, but we did it. We got through it in one piece. But if you're booking such a thing, my advice for you today is check if you're booking the kid route or the adult one. Oh my God, never again. Anyway, should we talk about what we're doing today? Because that was just a weird tangent that went off on there. We're going to talk about our brilliant guest, Julian Clary. Julian, where do we even start? What an iconic and colourful, but also very considered and thoughtful man. This chat was just such a treat. He is obviously a comedian. He's

• 3:25Fearne Cotton?

  been a staple on the pantomime and cabaret circuits and now he's extended his sellout Western themed show, A Fistful of Clary, which sounds, by the way, like an absolute riot. We talked about a lot in this. We talked about the feelings of claustrophobia in social settings and panic attacks in places like supermarkets and on the motorway, which I know will resonate with many of you. We also talked about becoming naturally a bit happier as you get older, more comfortable with yourself, more comfortable in your own skin, being slightly less led by ego perhaps as well. We also talk about sleep and sleeping badly, which I know will be a subject many of you Happy Place listeners will take an interest

• 4:07Fearne Cotton?

  in. Certainly something that I am very interested in still, having good and bad nights of sleep. And talking about sleeping pills and taking sleeping aids. We get really stuck into that one. And also him not being a fan of having negative thoughts and how he deals with them, which I have found actually extremely helpful. By the way, I was properly obsessed with Julian's socks because they had cats on them and I want them.

• 4:34Speaker 03

  This message is brought to you by the Capital One Venture X Card. Venture X offers the premium benefits you expect, like a $300 annual Capital One travel credit for less than you expect. Elevate your earn with unlimited double miles on every purchase, bringing you one step closer to your next dream destination. Plus, enjoy access to over 1,000 airport lounges worldwide. The Capital One Venture X Card. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. Lounge access is subject to change. See CapitalOne.com for details.

• 5:05Speaker 04

  At Humana, our Medicare Advantage plans are easy to understand and easy on your wallet, like offering more benefits than you'd get from original Medicare alone, and including dental, vision, and hearing coverage in every plan. And the best part is, every plan has a $0 or low monthly plan premium, which makes it easier to save, too. So this Medicare planning season, plan well with Humana. Learn more at GetHumana.com. Humana is a Medicare Advantage HMO and PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 5:36Speaker 05

  It's time. It's the most wonderful time of the year. Halloween!

• 5:44Speaker 06

  And you guys know we don't do Halloween by halves. Full costume, full prosthetics, full commitment. I'm a rat. And I'm the chef. It's our Ratatouille special. Ben, we're grabbing our broomsticks for the witches. We've got a spooky hotline caller. An update from our woman who was in love with the ghost of Prince Albert. And your tarot card die levers. Listen to our Halloween specials. Search for The Girl's Bathroom.

• 6:14Fearne Cotton?

  Right, come on then, let's do it. Here's the show.

• 6:38Fearne Cotton?

  Julian, how are you?

• 6:39Speaker 02

  I'm good, yes. Nice and sort of even and steady today.

• 6:44Fearne Cotton?

  That's good.

• 6:45Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 6:45Fearne Cotton?

  I like even and steady. I mean, I used to be a bit of an adrenaline junkie and want the big roller coaster, but I think I'm liking the even steady these days.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  No, I find that's sort of how I am. There's no great ecstasy moments and there's no depression. I'm just sort of bobbing along.

• 7:02Fearne Cotton?

  That's really good.

• 7:03Speaker 02

  Good.

• 7:03Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. And you've got your tour coming up. Do you manage to sort of maintain that feeling of steadiness as you approach something like that?

• 7:10Speaker 02

  Yes, I look forward to it. Do I? I do. No, it's sometimes when you see the list of where you've got to go.

• 7:19Fearne Cotton?

  Daunting.

• 7:19Speaker 02

  And that is, you think, but once you're actually doing it, it's great. And it's all about those two hours on stage. It's all, you know, the whole day is arranged. So you sort of peak at seven o'clock at night or seven thirty. And then it's, then a sort of slow come down. So, yeah, no, I do maintain that. I, I'm, and it's such a mutually beneficial thing, comedy, because, you know, presumably people like having a laugh. And when I make people laugh, it's good for my soul. And so it's very uplifting and I like that whole creative process of being silly

• 8:02Speaker 02

  and making things up.

• 8:05Fearne Cotton?

  And great costumes. There's a Western theme.

• 8:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:08Fearne Cotton?

  With this tour. I loved the press shop where there's a big willy cactus in the background. I think that was my favourite.

• 8:13Speaker 02

  Phallic. And it, it ejaculates.

• 8:17Fearne Cotton?

  Does it?

• 8:18Speaker 02

  Yes, I sing.

• 8:19Fearne Cotton?

  What, spikes what comes out of it?

• 8:20Speaker 02

  It's all microfibre lights.

• 8:23Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, wow.

• 8:23Speaker 02

  So an exciting moment of the show. It ejaculates behind me and it gets a laugh. And that's great because it's, it's a built in laugh, you know, that I don't have to work for.

• 8:34Fearne Cotton?

  Love that. The cactus is doing it all. And do you get nerves before something like that? Or maybe moments before you're on stage? Or is it so now natural for you to be in that environment that you can mitigate that element of it?

• 8:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, a bit of nerves, a bit of adrenaline sharpens the brain. I don't, I used to, like 20 odd years ago, and it's very addictive if you start. Having self doubt and panic attacks and um now I got through that period. So so no, I'm I'm always up for it, you know, so it's a nice kind of nervous excitement about what's going to happen because I do a lot of improvisation and a lot of getting people out of the audience. And that's an unknown quantity. So you don't I've learned to pick the right people I like to think. You don't want drunk people, you don't want mad people, you don't want people who are going to be mortified by it.

• 9:28Speaker 02

  You want people that are going to enjoy it and

• 9:34Speaker 02

  go on a journey, you know, where they're not, I don't like people too keen either.

• 9:37Fearne Cotton?

  Um, it's quite a specific person you're looking for.

• 9:39Speaker 02

  Well, it is, but with a bit of eye contact, you can, you can tell, I think I can tell and you you pick the right people.

• 9:46Fearne Cotton?

  Um, so how, is it just time and experience that has stopped you from having that moment of panic? Or like you said there, it's addictive, the the nature of anxiety, would you say, is addictive that you get into a habit? It's like a habitual process that you have to go through before you set foot on stage or back in the day.

• 10:02Speaker 02

  It's not just on stage. When I was getting a lot of those, you'd get them like in a queue, a supermarket queue. I would always get claustrophobic and feel trapped and often have to abandon my trolley. So then any kind of queue situation would bring it on. I think your brain just kind of clicks in. So, yeah, that that was a long period of of that. So I just just grew out of it and talked myself through it in the end.

• 10:29Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, I I used to get them all the time. This was maybe about six, seven years ago. One of my big things was driving on the motorway. I just totally stopped doing it. There was no way I could do a motorway journey if I was driving. I could just about pull off the A road onto it and then it would instantly hit me and I'd have to quickly pull over or get off. And then I just was so scared of it for about five years. I just didn't do it at all and. I did a bit of therapy that helped, but I think maybe you do have a period where you grow out of it and you're just, your brain, you know, stops, that that trigger stops working so frequently and potently because it feels so overwhelming in the moment that you feel like you've got no control over it at all. It's pretty debilitating.

• 11:11Speaker 02

  It's horrible. And I have had them driving as well.

• 11:13Fearne Cotton?

  It's horrible.

• 11:14Speaker 02

  And I had a thing where I thought all the cars were going backwards.

• 11:16Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, yeah, I've had that, yeah.

• 11:17Speaker 02

  It's dangerous as well because, you know, and I had, you just have them on the A40, you know, that that flyover bit?

• 11:24Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 11:24Speaker 02

  Where you often, there's a queue of traffic and you stop right at the top is, top and you look down at the edge of a road. That would be a point.

• 11:32Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 11:33Speaker 02

  As well. Funny, isn't it?

• 11:34Fearne Cotton?

  It is so funny, but it can be, um, I mean, I was gonna say a nuisance. It's more than that. I, you know, I stopped doing certain jobs because I couldn't do it. And I hadn't, I stopped doing live radio. That was just a massive trigger. I haven't actually forced myself to start that one again. Maybe I will in the future, but I was having huge panic attacks the night before for hours on end. I wouldn't sleep a wink. And I'd be okay just about on air. I'd get through it, but I would be exhausted, the amount of adrenaline pumping through my body. And I just didn't want to feel that level of fear for that sustained period of time. Do you, do you think it affected or impacted your work at the time you were having them?

• 12:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, it wasn't good, you know. But there is that thing of forcing yourself, which I'm kind of quite up for that.

• 12:23Fearne Cotton?

  Are you?

• 12:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I was wondering if, after you did your radio show, did you not feel better? Because you thought, well, I've got through, I've done it.

• 12:29Fearne Cotton?

  Well, no, I mean, to a degree, yes. But then the next night would be exactly the same again. And I just couldn't keep doing it. I think if I did it now, it might be different and I would feel that sense of accomplishment. And, okay, I'm, I'm past that period, but I just haven't forced myself into it. Maybe I need to be a little bit more, I don't know, forceful about the whole situation.

• 12:47Speaker 02

  I think, I think what happened. You just one day forgot to have a panic attack, you know, I was in a queue and I think if you distract yourself, if I was thinking about something else rather than, oh, I'm in a queue, I'm in a queue. It's going to start and and I came out the supermarket and I thought, oh, I forgot to have, you know, a panic attack. So I don't know, someone will know, won't they, the psychology of all that. But it does pass. And as we know, as you get older, you get happier and you sort of care less about things.

• 13:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I've heard you say this in interviews before that you you definitely feel that the older you get, the happier you feel. Apart from perhaps that, you know, your brain's creating new neural pathways, you're moving on from these periods that are triggering and tricky. What else do you think has led you to that conclusion that you feel happier today?

• 13:37Speaker 02

  I think it's the realisation that things aren't that important, you know, the being.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  If I died death on stage, that might have been what I was worried about. Well, the worst thing that can happen is that that no one laughs and you get booed off. And so what, you know, it's not the most terrible thing in the great scheme of things, is it? Maybe I've maybe I've reasoned with myself like that. But as you get older, I think everything's just a bit calmer and you've you've done certain things that you wanted to tick off and so. And everything's a bonus really when you get to my age.

• 14:16Fearne Cotton?

  I guess, you know, I totally get that feeling of, you know, you've you've bombed on stage or something at work didn't go how you thought it would go, or you. Humiliate yourself in front of people. I've certainly had moments of that in my young years where it's been. Such a huge deal disproportionate to the actual event happening, but. You know, and I'm in my 40s, but I certainly feel like that is. Driving me a lot less today. If something goes wrong at work, I probably can reason with myself like, oh, it was just a bad day. And get over it. But I think when you are younger, it just feels huge.

• 14:50Speaker 02

  It does. And it's sort of vanity really that you are so important, you know, that this matters. So it all passes.

• 14:58Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and maybe also, I guess. Because you've had so much more life experience, you've been through stuff that's properly awful and shit and you have a better gauge of that is worth worrying about and that not so much maybe.

• 15:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that happens and you know that you'll survive. I can't think of anything that might happen now that would really derail me. Maybe I'm wrong, I shouldn't tempt fate, but I think I'll be all right, you know.

• 15:29Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, as you saw when you came into our little studio, I read your first autobiography, A Young Man's Passage, best book title ever, by the way, it was hilarious. From even the front cover, I was like, I'm in. It's a rollercoaster of a book and obviously you wrote that a while ago now, but I wonder, sort of looking back at that period of your life where, you know, you really reflect on your integration into the cabaret world and then onto TV and then the peak of fame and being on primetime TV. You know, also married with a lot of loss and grief in your life and as you've already talked about, panic attacks. Looking back on that era, what, how do you feel?

• 16:12Speaker 02

  Well, I don't look back on it very often. I tend to look forward, don't you? I think I've had an interesting life and I think I'm pleased about that, you know, I haven't played it safe. And there's a certain, certain things are genetic and certain things, you know, from your parents. My mother's very fearless and I like to think that comes from her. So I, I don't know, I didn't, I didn't feel afraid of putting myself in those positions in difficult times and it would be unusual if you hadn't had loss. I mean, I did happen to live through that difficult time where lots of people were dying of AIDS and, and

• 16:57Speaker 02

  there was a incongruity with being a comedian and that was your job, going out to make people laugh when awful things are happening at home. But that's the great therapy of comedy is that you can only.

• 17:13Speaker 02

  If you're on, and that's why I like being on stage, it's such an escape, you know, because your, your brain can only think about one thing at a time. So for those few hours, at least, I was in a, in a happy place.

• 17:26Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, that was something that was extremely close to home because you lost your partner, Christopher, to AIDS during this time that you were on stage constantly on the TV. I mean, that must have been an incredibly tricky time to navigate, you know, like you say, knowing the nature of your job and what you were dealing with at home, complete ends of the spectrum.

• 17:47Speaker 02

  Yes, it's, it's, it's more, in retrospect, when you look back, you think, oh, how did you do that? But you did, because that's just how it unfolded. And I often feel looked after, you know, by some sort of, I wouldn't say a higher force even, but you, I often think that there is a kind of symmetry, or there's like, the way things work out, there was a reason for that. And, and the two sort of balanced each other out. And it was odd, particularly the sort of comedy I was doing, you know, which was, at the time, a bit confrontational,

• 18:31Speaker 02

  but also very lightweight and very, still is very silly. And so that is very at odds with all of that.

• 18:41Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. And I guess, as we all know, because most people listening to this will have lost someone that they love dearly, that period afterwards of that acute grief is, you know, because I guess when you're, especially when you're living with someone who is unwell, there is this sort of daily onslaught of the practical that you've got to deal with and the emotional needs of the person that you're looking after and also your own. But then when they're gone, there is that sort of vacuum that's left where you're not quite sure what to do with the feelings. And, and there isn't that practical element anymore, or the caring, and you're just dealing with the loss and the grief. How, how did you cope with that part of your life?

• 19:20Speaker 02

  Well, sure, that, I mean, that happens, that, that all takes time. And, you know, I was lucky to be, have the distraction of work, I guess. But I think I remember. And I often think that when people die, that, oh, they would want, they'd want you to, you've got to live for them as well. So you've got to carry on, you've got, you've got to have a great time and sort of do it for them. Have various rituals before I go on stage, and one of which is to do with dead people. And it's a very kind of Catholic idea that they're looking down on you. But as you get older, more and more people have died. There's a whole gallery of people now. And you think, oh, who's in tonight? Oh, it's my grandmother.

• 20:01Speaker 02

  Oh, it's my father. And so that's just sort of comforting thing. And you think, oh, I'll do this show for them.

• 20:09Fearne Cotton?

  That's so nice. Is there an element of sort of talking to them, communicating with them in any way, or just having the awareness that they're watching down on you?

• 20:17Speaker 02

  There's acknowledgement, yes, but they always look ecstatic and in their prime, which is a nice thought that that's what happens.

• 20:32Speaker 03

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• 21:02Speaker 04

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• 21:34Speaker 05

  Hello, I'm Joanna Fletcher.

• 21:36Speaker 07

  And I'm Marco Burchella.

• 21:37Speaker 05

  And this is Boots Off.

• 21:40Speaker 07

  We are friends who have spent a decade together, walking up mountains, across deserts, and along coastlines with some seriously awesome groups of humans.

• 21:48Speaker 05

  And something happens when you're out there, feet on the ground, surrounded by nature.

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  The conversations just spill out of you. This series is about the adversities that lead to adventure. The adventures that lead to adversity. And how life can be one big adventure in itself. Listen every Thursday, just search for Boots Off.

• 22:11Fearne Cotton?

  Like you say, your comedy has always been outrageous in the best possible way and pushed boundaries and was extremely ahead of its time, especially when you made that transition from your cabaret career to being on primetime TV. But it wasn't an easy time for you to be on TV and I'm not sure how much you thrived from that or found it tricky, but you had people saying how outrageous or foul-mouthed you were, or even had issue with you wearing makeup on the TV, because that was obviously a new thing at the time. And some newspapers were even trying to run petitions to have you banned from TV. How much did that titillate you versus make you want to run a mile?

• 22:49Speaker 02

  No, I always felt it was fun. And it was a rollercoaster, because you'd gone from a very comfortable cabaret circuit, which was all very left-wing and everyone kind of got it. Then suddenly, people were being outraged and I thought, good, so there should be. And I enjoyed that. I enjoyed stirring people up and educating them, I like to think.

• 23:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yes, absolutely.

• 23:21Speaker 02

  They needed to, you know, there's a connection, isn't there, between fear and ignorance? And so, and people didn't have much knowledge, hard to believe about gay life and, you know, we're frightened of it, same with lots of things. So I thought, this is what I'll do then.

• 23:41Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, great fun. Also, people still love to be outraged. It's kind of almost a hobby.

• 23:47Speaker 02

  They like danger, don't they? And they like to be, I like it when you hear a sort of sharp intake of breath in an audience. Where's it going with this? If you decide to do some graphic demystification of the fisting process.

• 24:08Speaker 02

  Why not?

• 24:09Fearne Cotton?

  Why not? Why not have an ejaculating cactus? Why not?

• 24:13Speaker 02

  It's fun.

• 24:14Fearne Cotton?

  It's great fun. But I think you have to naturally have a resilience that allows you to be outrageous. Because for many people, and we'll, you know, be talking about this in other areas of happy place, you know, there's so many people out there that are, they acknowledge their people pleasing tendencies. They just don't want to upset anyone. They don't want anyone to feel uncomfortable. I've certainly had big periods of my life like that, like, oh, just don't rock the boat, don't upset anyone. But you actively get a kick out of this and you've got to kind of be resilient enough to not really give a shit that people might be outraged, pissed off, offended, whatever it might be. Do you think that's a natural tendency you have?

• 24:55Speaker 02

  Well, it's not my idea of a good night out is not to upset anyone.

• 24:59Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, no.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  You want to, you want to make them laugh and you want to, you're offering escapism, aren't you?

• 25:08Speaker 02

  But most comedy, you know, there are safe, there is very safe variety of comedy that may or may not be funny. But most comedy is treading a line and is, I think, people have analysed what laughter is. And it's thought to be, I believe, in some sort of sociological study that the reason people laugh is a sort of communal baying sound, is kind of warning that this is out of step, that things, you know, are out of order. And it's interesting, all that. I really want to look into it too much while you're doing it.

• 25:50Speaker 02

  But so I think that's what happens with comedy. I don't think it's just me.

• 25:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. And it is, I mean, the greatest kick to have people laugh at you and know that you're making them feel good. And we need more, we need more of that in life.

• 26:03Speaker 02

  I can't tell you what thrill it is and how addictive it is.

• 26:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 26:07Speaker 02

  And somewhere like the Palladium, where these theatres are built as variety theatres to feed back the noise to the stage. So it's, you know, it's like a drug.

• 26:18Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, yeah. My kids saw you in Panto at Christmas and they are still talking about it. I'd say almost daily. There was apparently, I didn't go with them, but they, and I wish I had, but I was working. There was a moment where you quite aggressively threw a flump into the audience, which they talk about every day. They just had the best day out, laughed and laughed and laughed. I mean, as you said, there is more than likely some sort of addictive nature to that because it is just the best feeling and you're getting a dopamine hit from it. And you know that everyone else leaves the theatre feeling really good. What is that come down when you get off stage? You know, has that changed over the years for you as to how you then get back to an even steady keel afterwards?

• 26:57Speaker 02

  I'm fine straight after.

• 26:59Fearne Cotton?

  Really?

• 26:59Speaker 02

  Yes, I know some comedians, Michael Barrymore would talk, didn't he, about, you know, one of the reasons he got into trouble was because, you know, the high of being on stage and then he felt he needed other stimulants as soon as he came off. No, I could go straight to bed.

• 27:17Fearne Cotton?

  Really?

• 27:19Speaker 02

  I could, I'm fine, I think I've job done.

• 27:21Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 27:22Speaker 02

  And I never go out afterwards, I never go to parties or drinks or dinners.

• 27:28Fearne Cotton?

  How interesting. Do you need, is your social battery just flat at that point? You need to just relax and chill out? Because some people love that and feed off that, they need to go to the party, they need to hear about how great everything went, get drunk.

• 27:40Speaker 02

  No, I mean, I am unsociable. I don't like backstage visitors really.

• 27:45Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 27:46Speaker 02

  And I don't, I just want to go home and sit on the sofa with my husband. I think of that sort of, because it's such a heightened state and this sort of mad world on stage and maybe I need to ground myself by just going home and have the dog there and a cup of tea.

• 28:02Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I'm the same.

• 28:03Speaker 02

  Or maybe I'm really boring and vacuous.

• 28:05Fearne Cotton?

  No, I don't want to go anywhere. I don't understand how people can do that and then they've still got energy to expel elsewhere. If I do anything, even this, I need to just have quiet afterwards. I'm introverted, extroverted, like I like the extrovert bit for the work bit and I like flexing that muscle, but I need to be on my own, almost in silence to kind of counter this experience.

• 28:26Speaker 02

  Oh, well, same, yes. So tonight we'll both be sitting at home in a darkened room.

• 28:31Fearne Cotton?

  Heaven, I can't wait. This is my favourite hobby, just sitting in a dark room.

• 28:35Speaker 02

  Do not disturb.

• 28:36Fearne Cotton?

  Do not disturb. Cats allowed, no one else.

• 28:38Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, cats and dogs.

• 28:40Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, your cat socks, I'm stealing, they're the best. There was a really interesting description of fame in your book as well, your first autobiography. Oh, yes, very interesting. I'm very, um, I'm constantly interested by fame because I think there is still this, and I talk to my kids about it a lot because they're now in that sort of YouTube generation. They like, I want to be a YouTuber and I want to be famous. And I'm interested in dissecting that with them because I got into TV very young and I've experienced different levels of fame over the years. And I know, as you do, how, you know, it can be in ways fruitful, but also it can be fucking awful and bleak. And, um, sometimes it's completely flawed me, having that level of scrutiny and people making assumptions about you,

• 29:24Fearne Cotton?

  not knowing who you are whatsoever. And in the book, you, you, you talk about the subject in terms of when you have that peak fame and everyone's talking about you and you've got a lot of people around you that don't say no, or they're just there to constantly facilitate what you need. It's easy to slip into delusion, a sense of, you know, inflated importance. It's really easy to do that. Would you say you, you hit that stage?

• 29:51Speaker 02

  Yes, I, I think, I don't know what it does to you. And it doesn't last for long, but, but there was, I thought, I suppose it's sort of self-importance and, and feeling of infallibility and anything you want. I think it's in the book about not wanting to travel in a maroon car. Because it reminded me, reminded me of my school uniform. And I did go through, I mean, it was only a few weeks, I think, of refusing to get in and phoning my agents. If they've sent a maroon car, I can't believe this has happened. It's so stupid.

• 30:26Fearne Cotton?

  It's great.

• 30:27Speaker 02

  They would have to, Crawford's or whoever would have to send a different colour car.

• 30:32Fearne Cotton?

  Mmm.

• 30:33Speaker 02

  Yes, it's, it's, um, it's awful. That period, awful for other people anyway.

• 30:40Fearne Cotton?

  That's quite fun to look back on.

• 30:41Speaker 02

  Yes, it is a funny old business. I think in many ways, it's probably harder for women in that sort of scrutiny. I don't think anyone was following me in such a sort of salacious way. But generally, and I like it now, I like it when it all calms down and, uh, people might come and say something complimentary to me in Marks and Spencer's. And you think, well, how nice, thank you very much. And it's it's a positive thing to happen, isn't it?

• 31:10Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 31:10Speaker 02

  Then you go on your way.

• 31:12Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 31:12Speaker 02

  I'm not chased down the street. There's none of that carry on and never has been, I have to say.

• 31:19Fearne Cotton?

  But I think, you know, you're absolutely right. It's lovely when people just wanna come up and acknowledge that your, whatever it is you've done, has touched them in some way or has made them smile. It's a lovely thing. I think when it is that people chasing you down the street. And, you know, we will have both seen that happen to people in our industries. And it's it's murky. It's not it's not a healthy thing for the human brain. And, you know, we can all throw out examples of, you know, we've seen lots of people fall into all sorts of despair because it's it messes with your head. It changes your psychology and how you see yourself and how you see the world. And it's not it's not a healthy thing. I mean, how do you get that balance today with having a public life?

• 31:59Fearne Cotton?

  You know, even doing an interview like this versus having a private life and a life away from all of this stuff?

• 32:05Speaker 02

  Hope you haven't got a maroon car to take me home, by the way.

• 32:09Fearne Cotton?

  I'm gonna make a phone call after this and make sure we've got you a dark blue car.

• 32:14Speaker 02

  The balance, oh, it just sort of comes natural. I mean, I, nothing is, I remember when I came out of Big Brother, for example, and I'd won Celebrity Big Brother. And you come out that door, you know, there's all the pyrotechnics going off. And hadn't spoken to my parents for three weeks, because obviously you can't in there. And and I had all these people around me saying they want this and this and you've got to go there. And I was very full of it. And I phoned my mother and she said, could I just point out? You haven't won the American election or anything. You might think you have. So that was, brought me down to earth, you know.

• 32:58Fearne Cotton?

  I've got mum like that.

• 32:59Speaker 02

  Have you? Well.

• 33:00Fearne Cotton?

  It's a good thing.

• 33:01Speaker 02

  It is a good thing. I can't imagine having a pushy theatrical mother. That hasn't hasn't been, hasn't happened to me. I don't know. I mean, I'm really happiest at home in a very quiet midweek evening with the dog and the husband, if he's in. That's all sort of where I feel content, you know. Which is sort of.

• 33:30Speaker 02

  I wouldn't want to be euphoric all the time because then you've got to come down, haven't you?

• 33:34Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 33:35Speaker 02

  And I just feel that my mother's all right, I'm all right, the dog's all right, got a nice weak hair, that sort of nice glow that you can get.

• 33:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, but I think people often imagine, especially when they see people, either very successful people or people in the public eye as, you know, the highlights, and I could even fall into this trap looking on social media like, oh my god, everyone, you know, is at this event and I'm obviously, you know, I'm not invited or whatever it might be. You can easily fall into that trap of, oh god, wouldn't it be amazing to have won a BAFTA at the weekend? Or whatever extreme it is for you. But actually, those things are always the pits. I mean, you talk about this in your book, there's a a story you tell of, you know, back in the day being at the Comedy Awards. And again, you would look in on that as an outsider and think, oh my god, that's got to be the most hilarious night and very glamorous and

• 34:26Fearne Cotton?

  free alcohol and just must be just such a hoop. But actually, that for you was even a trigger of anxiety and you were sort of taking Valium at the table and wanting to go home.

• 34:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're those, as we know, those nights are torturous and no, that was in a difficult period with all of that was going on. But now I prefer not to go to those sort of evenings now, yeah.

• 34:53Fearne Cotton?

  No, I mean, you don't really get anything from them at all. It's just sort of.

• 34:57Speaker 02

  I do sometimes, you know, you watch these things and think, oh, I wonder if I'd gone down a different path, you know, it'd be nice to be kind of proper actor and supposed to just a camp comic and, you know, you sort of find your path in life by a series of

• 35:18Speaker 02

  blind alleys, don't you? And I mean, I've planned this, but I think, and you do sometimes watch the Olivier's or something and think, oh, all that, you know, gravitas and respect and all that. But then I think I'm very lucky in in that, you know, I write my own, I'm in my own world and it's of my own creating. So I'm not waiting for someone to cast me in a Shakespeare play or thank goodness, you know, I can just, I decide if I want to go on tour or and

• 35:51Speaker 02

  I don't know, it's turning yourself into a product, isn't it? And just talking about yourself and, and things that have happened. So it's for the best that I'm not a proper actor. And I think with my mannerisms and way of speaking and all of that, it would have been unlikely anyway.

• 36:12Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I'd like to see you as like Macbeth, why not?

• 36:14Speaker 02

  It's not gonna happen.

• 36:15Fearne Cotton?

  Okay. I can keep dreaming, I can keep dreaming, but it's lovely that, you know, I, I, I feel the same. I've got an autonomy over what I do now that I definitely didn't have ten, twenty years ago where I feel very privileged that I can think up an idea or do a podcast episode like this without having to wait. You know, I used to, every January, think, oh, God, I've got no work at all for the rest of the year. What am I gonna do? And you'd sit waiting for someone to call you, waiting for an audition, waiting for someone to be interested, which I think creates a very fragile ego in itself because you're waiting for someone else to tell you you're good enough, rather than you having an idea, a spark, and then bring it into reality. It's a lovely feeling.

• 36:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's a very different world, all of, all of that branch of, of acting and entertaining.

• 37:03Speaker 02

  No, it wasn't for us, it wasn't for me anyway.

• 37:06Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, no way. And how's your sleep today? Because again, back in that period of, of your book, you were taking sleeping pills at points and you weren't sleeping at all. I've had periods of terrible insomnia where it's been absolutely torturous and it's, you know, I've written off whole days the next day because I've just felt like a zombie. And it then starts to send you a little bit doolally because you're so sleep deprived. My sleep's got back on track very slowly, again, probably due to therapy more than anything and making slight changes in my life. What, what would you say has helped if your sleep is better today?

• 37:39Speaker 02

  It is better. There are, it is that thing of things seem a lot worse at night. If I, if I do wake up in the night and start worrying, then I wake up in the morning and think, oh, well, that was fancy wasting that time. But generally, I'm not troubled by anything. And, I mean, it's the, the various tricks, aren't there of, you know, putting yourself in a state of gratitude so that those thoughts are at least positive and a bit of meditative.

• 38:08Speaker 02

  Breathing and I did some yoga recently on holiday with this, he was an amazing teacher. And you know the shabhasana where you relax at the end. And there were techniques of breathing in and breathing out, obviously.

• 38:27Fearne Cotton?

  Don't just breathe in. Terrible idea.

• 38:30Speaker 02

  He was very clever, so you must breathe it. But no, I've been using, using some of those and I go, basically I go to sleep very quickly.

• 38:38Fearne Cotton?

  That's good.

• 38:38Speaker 02

  And I find seven hours is exactly what I need.

• 38:43Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I think I'm about the seven hour mark. I mean, it's a tricky thing when you're in the habit of taking sleeping pills. I was in a real habit of taking melatonin that I'd always get if I went to the States or. And it became a mental crutch more than anything. It was like a psychosomatic reaction that if I took it, I'd fall asleep. And I felt incapable of doing so without. And it took a lot of just white knuckling it to stop doing that. How did you, what was your weaning off of sleeping pills like?

• 39:10Speaker 02

  Yes, I think, do you remember rehypnol?

• 39:12Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, yeah.

• 39:13Speaker 02

  I mean, that bad reputation, of course, as a date rape drug. But I used to get it, you know, I used to be prescribed that. And it is lovely for sleeping because you're with rehypnol. If I could just reminisce, your body kind of goes to sleep before you do. And then, and then you just kind of sink into it. It was lovely. As opposed to like modern day sleeping pills, which I do have in case I have jet lag or something. But it's like being hit over the head, isn't it? And that's not what you want.

• 39:44Fearne Cotton?

  No, no.

• 39:45Speaker 02

  So, yes, I think, how did I win myself off? I just realised when you finally have a proper night's sleep, you think, well, this is, this is sleep. That, I don't know what that was. It was just some sort of chemically induced thing. And it's not, the brain wasn't.

• 40:05Speaker 02

  Getting much benefit from that, or mine wasn't.

• 40:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and do you think, you know, because obviously, like you say, a lot of the time when you are waking up at night, it's psychological. I mean, there's obviously a whole plethora of other reasons why you might not be sleeping. If you've got illness or menopause or whatever going on, but for the majority of people, it's a busy mind. You know, that's what happens to me. I'll wake at three to go for a wee. And then I've got a list of twenty things that are just completely irrelevant and won't leave my brain. And I can't sleep. And I think, again, therapy's definitely helped me with that in terms of the big worries and the sort of obsessional loop thoughts about things. Do you think being in a calmer state of mind or having resolved certain issues or things in your life has helped in terms of sleep?

• 40:49Speaker 02

  Yes, it's interesting you talk about therapy. I've only had, I think, when Christopher died, I think I had some, well, I did have bereavement therapy. And I've never fancied it again, because I've got this thing about controlling your thoughts and not thinking about negative things. And that if you do think about them, it feeds them. So that sort of makes it worse, actually. So I'm very good at dismissing thoughts from my head.

• 41:19Fearne Cotton?

  That's interesting. And is it just as simple as saying not going there?

• 41:23Speaker 02

  It's a technique that you have to, you have to learn. There's a number of books by Richard Carlson, which I'm always banging on about, but that's how I've lived my life. And so this all comes from here. It's sort of mindfulness. It's sort of living in the moment. But he's quite anti-therapy.

• 41:42Fearne Cotton?

  This is so interesting because I think two things. One, I'd say is, my question would be, is there a fine line between saying I'm not going there with that negative thought? And the other side of that, which is I'm ignoring something I might need to have a look at to process it. Do you ever wonder that?

• 41:58Speaker 02

  I've had the conversation before with psychotherapist friends. It's exactly what they'd say, that you're, you're not facing up to it and you're not dealing with it. But given that your feelings are just a result of what you're thinking. If you're thinking about something negative, then you're gonna feel negative. And I think it makes me shallow by not going there, but that's what I choose to do, that's not going to certain places.

• 42:27Fearne Cotton?

  I think it's really, I think it's really interesting and really commendable, because I think so often we can all fall into a pit of negative thinking, which usually results in us going into some sort of victim state, where we feel like the world's against us, or other people are massively against us, and that might be true in some cases, but I think a lot of the time, we, we create that, we create that dynamic between us and the world, or us and other people, or.

• 42:56Speaker 02

  You create it and you learn it probably.

• 42:58Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 42:58Speaker 02

  If, if you look at how children behave, they tend, tend to move on very quickly. And they tend not to hang on to thoughts, you know, they might have an upset and a scream, and then a minute later, they'll be running around thinking about something else.

• 43:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:15Speaker 02

  Because they let the thought go.

• 43:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, also, if, if you even look at the period after Christopher died, you, that could have been a point where you were like, this is unfair. This shouldn't have happened to me, I've lost someone I loved, and you could easily stay in that for years and years, you know, people do, and I'm not saying that with any judgment whatsoever, but you know, with something as big as bereavement, that, that's, that's an easy slope to slip down, I guess.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I mean, I did have a bad time for, I don't know, a couple of years. And then it was things like, I've got to have a good time for this, what he'd want, you know, I think those, those are the sort of thoughts that got me through. Hard to remember now.

• 43:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:00Speaker 02

  I did have these, these counselling sessions, not to say that they didn't help. They were boring though, it was, it's one of those therapists who, he would start, everything had to come from me. So otherwise he'd be projecting or something.

• 44:15Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 44:17Speaker 02

  I remember looking at my watch and thinking, what a funny way to earn a living, sitting there in silence.

• 44:24Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, it can be boring and it can also be, I've had horrific therapy sessions, I've thought, I wish I hadn't done that, you know, it's very confronting and. It's definitely helped me, but I don't, I'm not sort of, I would never take the stance that everyone should do it. I think, you know, I've got friends that are like, it is not for me, I'm not interested. I've got coping mechanisms that I can easily click into myself. I don't think it's healthy to say blanket coverage, this should be for everyone.

• 44:51Speaker 02

  And I've had a brief therapy, have you heard about this?

• 44:53Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 44:54Speaker 02

  And my mother talks about that, she was a probation officer and it's whole thing, brief therapy. Whatever your problems, sort it out in one session, they go in and say, what's the matter? What do you want?

• 45:07Fearne Cotton?

  I love that.

• 45:07Speaker 02

  And.

• 45:08Fearne Cotton?

  One and done.

• 45:09Speaker 02

  So you get straight into it.

• 45:10Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 45:11Speaker 02

  I'm not here to judge, but it sounds good to me.

• 45:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I think everyone's different, everyone approaches life differently, everyone processes things differently, you know. Got to deal with it in the way that suits you.

• 45:23Speaker 02

  How often do you, I was going to say have a seeing to, how often do you go to a therapist?

• 45:30Fearne Cotton?

  I go every week.

• 45:31Speaker 02

  Oh blimey.

• 45:32Fearne Cotton?

  Every week, but I've had periods where I haven't been for years and then I've had periods where I've really needed it intensely and I've done it much more regularly than once a week. But at the moment, it feels like once a week is a nice, healthy check it. And I feel very lucky, I'm saying it quite flippantly, you know, it's fucking expensive. And there's lots of people that would love to do therapy and they can't. I feel very, very lucky that I get to do it. And it has, I'd say it's been game changing for, certainly in terms of anxiety, which was my number one nemesis for years. You know, it stopped me working, it stopped me driving a car, it made me anxious hanging out with people. And, and I don't feel like that anymore. I've got very, very little anxiety through.

• 46:14Fearne Cotton?

  I think someone else, um, and this sounds really pretentious, but sort of validating certain things that I felt or, or making things that I'd blown up into this huge scenario much smaller and, and.

• 46:31Speaker 02

  How long has that taken?

• 46:33Fearne Cotton?

  Oh God, uh, not long actually, actually not long, doing this weekly therapy, actually it's tricky to, I've done weekly therapy for nearly a year, but before that I did an integral bit of, um, uh, EMDR, which is an eye movement therapy.

• 46:50Speaker 02

  Oh yes, I've heard about that.

• 46:51Fearne Cotton?

  Which really worked for me, for the motorway, certainly. So I did six months of that and that seemed to just kill off the motorway thing and I could drive on them. So I drive easily now with zero anxiety at all.

• 47:01Speaker 02

  Happy days.

• 47:02Fearne Cotton?

  Happy days. So that really worked. And then it was a bit on off therapy and then the last year I've been really disciplined about it. And, um, yeah, it's been game changing, game changing.

• 47:14Speaker 02

  People do, don't they? People in America, that's what they do.

• 47:17Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I don't, I don't think I'll do it for life, you know, I think I'll naturally know when, okay, I've reached some conclusions, I've got to a place where I feel really happy in my own skin and the things that I know bug me, bug me a lot less.

• 47:29Speaker 02

  Do you think your therapist would ever say, I think we're done?

• 47:33Fearne Cotton?

  I hope so.

• 47:35Speaker 02

  My work here is done.

• 47:36Fearne Cotton?

  They're a very decent person who would not keep me strung along for financial benefit. I think they would, they would know when we'd hit a wall and got to a good place.

• 47:45Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 47:45Fearne Cotton?

  I think. I think most good therapists should.

• 47:48Speaker 02

  And so, and what, excuse my curiosity.

• 47:51Fearne Cotton?

  No, it's interesting, yeah.

• 47:52Speaker 02

  So do you just arrive? And they say, right.

• 47:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 47:56Speaker 02

  And you just start talking about yourself.

• 47:57Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's really narcissistic.

• 48:00Speaker 02

  Lovely.

• 48:02Fearne Cotton?

  But I like the fact that I don't want to necessarily burden all of my friends constantly with, this is plaguing me or this is bothering me. I want to have a nice time and chat in an equal, you know, way where the transaction is fluid and there I know I'm paying someone, I can just offload and sometimes I don't need to as much and sometimes there's something that's really, you know, irking me. So I get a lot from it, definitely.

• 48:26Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 48:26Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 48:27Speaker 02

  And you go to them? It's not done on Zoom or anything?

• 48:29Fearne Cotton?

  No, I go to their house.

• 48:31Speaker 02

  Do you lie down?

• 48:32Fearne Cotton?

  No, just sit in a little armchair.

• 48:35Speaker 02

  And do they take notes?

• 48:36Fearne Cotton?

  No, no notes, but quite similar to your experience of very little, you should do this. It's sort of bringing me to my own conclusions, but via just having a chat about stuff and posing interesting questions.

• 48:50Speaker 02

  And have they signed an NDA, whatever it's called?

• 48:54Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, I haven't insisted that, but I think, again, most good therapists, there is just a general knowing that nothing leaves that room, which is a nice thought. Because you are telling them.

• 49:05Speaker 02

  I'd read the book. Inside Fern Cotton's Mind.

• 49:10Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, God, please.

• 49:10Speaker 02

  How I cured her. Took five years.

• 49:13Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, yeah, she's, she's done it. She's amazing. I'm feeling very, very good, very, very good.

• 49:21Speaker 02

  Hurrah.

• 49:22Fearne Cotton?

  And no anxiety, which is, you know, anxiety is shit.

• 49:24Speaker 02

  It is horrible.

• 49:25Fearne Cotton?

  It's really shit. It's really shit. And, um, and they, you know, that's why hopefully people listen to this podcast is because a lot of people out there don't want to feel like that anymore. They want to feel happy in their own skin and they don't want to feel like they're in combat every day with everything going on in the world or whatever trigger it is, like supermarket queues, driving on the motorway, you know, it doesn't have to be that way.

• 49:49Speaker 02

  There's a lot of it about.

• 49:50Fearne Cotton?

  There's a lot of it about and it's, feels like it's ramping up maybe it's. It's a funny one. It's a funny one. Wow, the, the, the tables turned there on me, Julian.

• 50:00Speaker 02

  Has it?

• 50:01Fearne Cotton?

  Started interviewing me slightly. I quite like.

• 50:03Speaker 02

  Oops.

• 50:06Speaker 03

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• 50:37Speaker 04

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• 51:22Speaker 04

  It's a laugh is what it is, Ruffel.

• 51:24Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and a fair bit of gossiping too. Oh, and a lovely bit of gossip. Chow down on the gossip. Nom, nom, nom, nom, nom. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. Just need to search Big Kick Energy. Grab a knife and fork and tuck in, baby.

• 51:40Fearne Cotton?

  The other thing that we both have in common is a deep love of writing.

• 51:45Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 51:45Fearne Cotton?

  Love writing.

• 51:46Speaker 02

  I've been doing that this morning.

• 51:47Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, what are you working on, a novel?

• 51:49Speaker 02

  There's another novel. And I just, I love having a book on the go, don't you?

• 51:53Fearne Cotton?

  It's the best.

• 51:54Speaker 02

  I love having that part of my brain that, you know. And it's good actually for getting to sleep, for thinking about imaginary characters and what might happen next. So I do love it and I love the contrast to the rest of my work, if we can use that word, you know, which is on stage and talking to a crowd of people. A book is just between you and the reader. And I like this period of not even the reader knowing about it.

• 52:27Fearne Cotton?

  Just lives in your head and it's delightful. I mean, I don't know how you feel about that process, especially with fiction. I wrote my first fiction a couple of years ago. I'm working on another fiction now and I'm finding it a very different discipline to non-fiction. And I'm finding it a slightly more fragile process in the sense that you are just creating something from absolutely fuck all. And there is an element of self doubt that comes with that. Is this just... A pile of absolute nonsense, or, you know, is this just a great idea in my head, but no, it won't translate to everybody else. And I, I'm about halfway through the process at the moment, and, and I'm in that bit of, is this, should I abandon this at forty six thousand words?

• 53:09Fearne Cotton?

  Because that feels like a big waste of time. Do you have that kind of?

• 53:13Speaker 02

  I do.

• 53:13Fearne Cotton?

  Cycle.

• 53:14Speaker 02

  I do. I'm only at ten thousand words at the moment, so I have even more doubt, because it's like looking into murky water. And, you know, you have the idea, but then the actual business of writing it, it's all got to come out and be made flesh and all of that.

• 53:35Speaker 02

  But I have learnt that it will be all right in the end, like lots of things in life, it will be all right.

• 53:41Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 53:42Speaker 02

  And, and if it isn't all right, then you've just wasted your time, but never mind.

• 53:47Fearne Cotton?

  How much do you push yourself in that process? Are you still aiming, I mean, this is just, this is not even just with writing. This, this applies to everything that you're doing, whether it's on stage or writing a show. How much do you push yourself for excellence? Or are you at a place where you're, you're okay with things landing in a, you know, in a successful way, but it doesn't have to be your best, best, best, best, best work?

• 54:07Speaker 02

  Um, well, who's to say what it's excellent or not? I kind of know if it's right, and you only know when you get to the end, so you've got to keep pushing forward. I don't know how you, I don't, I wouldn't judge myself like that really.

• 54:27Speaker 02

  In performance or a book, not for me to say, I give my all, fan.

• 54:33Fearne Cotton?

  I know you do. I know you do. And your kids' books have been a ginormous success. That must be a lovely feeling.

• 54:39Speaker 02

  Oh, it is. And it's that, um, going back into your own childhood. And I, I grew up in Teddington and the books are set in Teddington. And I remember, remember making up these stories for my own amusement, because I didn't have a lot of friends and.

• 54:59Speaker 02

  And so it was, I wouldn't say it was easy, but there they were, you know. And you can do that double thing as well, it's for children, but it's also, because I know a lot of parents read to children, so there's other things that are just for their amusement.

• 55:15Fearne Cotton?

  We need that, especially at the end of the day where you are absolutely on your knees, you need to read a book that's fun for you too as an adult.

• 55:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, and getting them illustrated as well, which is a whole other person's creative input, which was a delightful thing, because you'd sort of forget about them, you deliver them and then it came back illustrated.

• 55:37Fearne Cotton?

  So wonderful.

• 55:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a great, and making children laugh, I do book events for children and understandably, you know, I have not been in that position since I started out and did theatre and education in the early eighties, but making children laugh, they don't know who you are or anything, it's just if it's funny, it's funny, it was just as much of a thrill as making a room full of adults laugh, who knew?

• 56:08Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's the best feeling, it's so good, I love making my kids laugh. I'm also making them cringe quite a lot at their age at the moment, but making them laugh is great.

• 56:15Speaker 02

  Are they, what age are they?

• 56:17Fearne Cotton?

  Nine and twelve.

• 56:18Speaker 02

  Oh, that's nice.

• 56:19Fearne Cotton?

  So yeah, really lovely, really lovely ages, but yeah, the twelve year old, I am slightly cringing him out if I either sing or try and be a bit cool, that doesn't work anymore, does not land well at all. Julia, my last question to you is where is your happy place?

• 56:35Speaker 02

  Can I quote someone else?

• 56:36Fearne Cotton?

  Mm.

• 56:37Speaker 02

  Because I saw Barry Humphries, one of his last shows in London, and as himself, not as Dame Edna, and anyway, he came out and he, I think it was the first words, this is my happy place, being on stage, and I did have this, I thought, well, I exactly recognise that, because for the reasons we've been through really, it's escapism, it's you can't think about anything else, you're making people laugh, so that's good for you.

• 57:08Speaker 02

  I can't think of any other place where I'm happier than on stage. Preferably the Palladium.

• 57:16Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 57:16Speaker 02

  Preferably Saturday night.

• 57:18Fearne Cotton?

  That's yours, the Palladium.

• 57:20Speaker 02

  But I'm still happy there on a Tuesday night, you know, it's all.

• 57:23Fearne Cotton?

  Any night.

• 57:24Speaker 02

  It's all very happy, yeah.

• 57:26Fearne Cotton?

  Um, well, I wish you all the success with the extension of your tour. I hope it goes swimmingly and that you have an absolute blast and.

• 57:34Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 57:35Fearne Cotton?

  And with the rest of your novel writing too, can't wait to read it.

• 57:37Speaker 02

  And the rest of my life.

• 57:39Fearne Cotton?

  And the rest of your life, quite frankly, Julian. Good luck with it all.

• 57:41Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 57:44Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, Julian, thank you. I love that. I also really liked the bit where he started interviewing me. I sort of didn't really realise it was happening until about probably 10 minutes in. I thought, God, I haven't asked a question in ages. I better say something. But I really loved it. Julian's obviously just brilliant and clever and thoughtful. And it's really nice to see there's the outrageous side of him, the extrovert on stage, but also this really thoughtful, quiet version as well, which I was met with today. And that part of him I love very much. A fistful of Clary, Julian's Western themed stand up tour will be heading around the UK from the 30th of April. Go see it if you want a good old belly laugh. Right, back here next week, but in the meantime, come say hey on Instagram. We're at Happy Place Official. Let us know what you thought of that episode.

• 58:28Fearne Cotton?

  Let's get chatting about it or just tell us how you are. For now, a massive thanks again to Julian, to the producer, Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios, and to you, you are simply the best.

• 59:06Speaker 05

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• 1:00:21Speaker 06

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• 1:00:32Speaker 06

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