To Forgive My Ex-Husband I Need to Forgive Myself First

Esther talks with a young divorcée about the challenges of co-parenting with her ex-husband while wrestling with feelings of anger and frustration. They explore the impact of her past traumas and the difficulties in communication that have led to this strained relationship and how to evolve for the sake of her kids. Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected]. Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hello.

• 0:01Esther Perel?

  Hi, hi, hi.

• 0:04Esther Perel?

  Shall we listen to your question first? And then you can add anything that you say. Should have added that, should have maybe mentioned this. Shall we start with the listening together?

• 0:15Speaker 00

  Let's do that, yeah.

• 0:16Esther Perel?

  Okay, let's do that.

• 0:19Speaker 00

  So my situation is me and my ex-husband, we decided to divorce four years ago. We have two kids together. Right now, they're five and seven. Right after we decided to divorce, like the same week that we ever uttered that word, like we never said that word before. The same week, he started into a very serious relationship with a woman. He eventually married and they're together now. He actually lived with me for six months while he was dating her. So after we decided to break up, they started dating and then he moved out of the house six months later.

• 1:04Speaker 00

  I think because of that, it created a dynamic in which the woman was inherently threatened by me. Like our marriage and their relationship essentially overlapped. It never gave me and my ex-husband an opportunity to kind of process our relationship and to start that healing journey. In addition to that, I have not been allowed to talk to my ex-husband. It's part of the rules that we, basically, we can never privately communicate ever about anything, even about the kids. I just don't know how we're ever gonna heal for the kids.

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• 2:23Speaker 03

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• 3:19Esther Perel?

  You seem to have stopped mid-sentence, so keep going.

• 3:24Speaker 00

  Well, when I hear that, first of all, I want to paint a more accurate picture of the beginning of their relationship, because in that clip, it sounds like he did something to me, and I don't feel that way. Our marriage was downhill for most of the time. And so we had like a, it was never really used, but we had like an agreement where we would be open, because we knew that, well, at the time, we didn't admit that it was, that we didn't love each other, but at the time, it was just like, I had had many babies, and I didn't really feel like being intimate, and I wasn't attracted to him at the time. And so I was like, you know, it's really okay if you want to go be intimate with somebody else. It's really okay.

• 4:07Speaker 00

  It wasn't really okay with me, but I, I felt like that was going to save our marriage. I was fully okay with him dating someone new, but I wasn't fully okay with him just like abandoning our life together, our, because we, we built a life, and we, we decided to build a life. We got married. We had the kids by accident, the first one. We barely knew each other, and we got pregnant, and, you know, we tried to make it work. We tried to decide to commit to each other and love each other. Um, but it was never gonna work and neither one of us wants to be with the other person right now. And at the time, I think.

• 4:53Speaker 00

  So, at the same time, we have two kids, um.

• 4:58Esther Perel?

  That you are co-parenting?

• 5:01Speaker 00

  I don't know if co-parenting is the correct term.

• 5:03Esther Perel?

  No, give, tell me your correct term.

• 5:06Speaker 00

  I saw something called like parallel parenting once and maybe that's what people would call it, but. We have them approximately fifty percent each. We try to make it as equal as possible in the last year or so. But we don't communicate, like, other than what time are you bringing the kids over and. But even like too many details sharing is considered, not by me, but by them, like interfering.

• 5:35Esther Perel?

  Is it them plural and you singular?

• 5:39Speaker 00

  I'm remarried and I have a baby also with my new partner.

• 5:44Esther Perel?

  Okay, so it's them and them.

• 5:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, but my hus- my current husband has not been around in the picture as long as she has and. He stays out of it. He doesn't wanna have anything to do with them, but he also is like, he's he's friendly, he's nice. He's not like, he just doesn't wanna think about them. But for me, I can't. Fully not think about them because I have to still engage with them as a parent.

• 6:12Esther Perel?

  And how did this situation emerge that you are not having any permitted conversation? I mean, I'm understanding you you meet this man, I don't know where you met him, but probably quite young, is that accurate?

• 6:29Speaker 00

  Um, I was twenty five.

• 6:32Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm, and he?

• 6:34Speaker 00

  He's seven years older than me.

• 6:35Esther Perel?

  Okay, so you meet. A child is born that wasn't necessarily planned but is welcomed.

• 6:46Speaker 00

  Yes, very.

• 6:47Esther Perel?

  Very much welcomed and the two adults decide to see if they can unite around this child. And they were parents before they were partners. They did things a little bit in in a different order. And then things seem to have gone well enough that you decided to have a second child together.

• 7:10Speaker 00

  She was on purpose, the second child, I did that intentionally. I wanted my first baby to have a sibling.

• 7:18Esther Perel?

  Um hum.

• 7:19Speaker 00

  And I saw my friend get pregnant and I said, oh, it's time.

• 7:24Esther Perel?

  And you notified him or you just notified him after the fact?

• 7:30Speaker 00

  Oh, no, he knew we were having unprotected sex and I think I said I want a baby, I'm not sure. But when the baby happened, we were both not shocked.

• 7:41Esther Perel?

  Wonderful, okay, so baby number two is also warmly welcomed.

• 7:47Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 7:47Esther Perel?

  And then you experienced postpartum changes in your physicality, in your sexuality. And to make it very short, if I understood what you're saying is I wasn't interested in him, but I didn't think I could deprive him. So I said to him, go find it elsewhere.

• 8:06Speaker 00

  Yes, mostly, correct.

• 8:09Esther Perel?

  Correct me, make it accurate.

• 8:11Speaker 00

  Um, I blamed it on the postpartum changes.

• 8:14Esther Perel?

  But in fact, I wasn't really interested in him anymore either. And so I kind of said, since I'm I'm not interested in you, go find someone else who's interested.

• 8:24Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 8:24Esther Perel?

  But I didn't plan that that person would become his life partner.

• 8:29Speaker 00

  Well, uh, um, not that first person.

• 8:33Esther Perel?

  Okay, okay. And how did it then develop into this silence?

• 8:41Speaker 00

  Okay, that's a complicated thing.

• 8:44Esther Perel?

  That's why we're here, right?

• 8:45Speaker 00

  Yes, the communication issues are the definitely the thing, um.

• 8:50Esther Perel?

  So if you turned it into a question, so we have a frame for our conversation.

• 8:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:55Esther Perel?

  It would be what?

• 8:58Speaker 00

  How do I communicate with my ex-husband so that we have a positive relationship? And that all of our interactions result in?

• 9:08Speaker 00

  Net positive. I wanna have a positive relationship with my children's father.

• 9:13Esther Perel?

  Okay, so continue. So, explain to me what is the conundrum?

• 9:18Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 9:19Esther Perel?

  And the stalemate. Yes.

• 9:21Speaker 00

  Cause I, I'm sure there, if they told you the story, there would be a different interpretation. And I think that's the crux of the problem is that we just don't talk. Cause I don't know what they're thinking. And then I have a conversation with them in my head, but that's probably wrong. And then I probably think bad things about them. And then I make it worse. And I bet they do the same thing and they're doing the same thing together.

• 9:43Esther Perel?

  Because your kids bring stuff home?

• 9:45Speaker 00

  No, no, it's not like that. They don't talk in front of the kids as much as I'm aware of. The kids, I'd say both sides are being pretty good about not uh airing everything in front of them, but they know that there's tension. What they see is, to put it very simply, when he doesn't communicate with me, I get mad that he's not communicating. And then it becomes about me losing my temper and being mad. And then not about communicating. And I know I should control myself and not get mad. And I, sometimes I, you know, most of the time I don't, but when I do, I do.

• 10:26Esther Perel?

  And how do you do it?

• 10:28Speaker 00

  I yell.

• 10:29Esther Perel?

  And you'd say what to whom and how?

• 10:33Speaker 00

  Well, it's changed. From the beginning, um, it was mostly through text. And I just said exactly how I felt with a tone that was like, you're doing something wrong to me. And then I realized that I was not making it possible for them to have a conversation with me. And I was not communicating in a way that benefited me because, um.

• 11:00Esther Perel?

  You let them down a path where they basically at some point decided she's off the wall. We can't talk to her. We just need to manage her and keep our boundaries up.

• 11:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:15Esther Perel?

  Because she flies off the handle.

• 11:18Speaker 00

  But I also think they throw it out of proportion.

• 11:21Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 11:23Esther Perel?

  But one thing you just said that is really important is that you may be right, but that doesn't mean it's useful for you.

• 11:34Speaker 00

  You're right.

• 11:35Esther Perel?

  So the question is, how do I do this in a way that yields me what I'm actually looking for? Because if I'm gonna be right and alone, or right and in silence, what good does that do?

• 11:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:50Esther Perel?

  And what you're also saying is controlling people who I think are doing wrong by me is important in my life.

• 11:59Speaker 00

  Um, yes, I think that is something

• 12:07Speaker 00

  that I have been recently aware.

• 12:11Speaker 00

  But only recently.

• 12:12Esther Perel?

  Hmm. Tell me more.

• 12:16Speaker 00

  I guess, very young, I adopted an idea that, um, I mean, i- is it wrong that, um, you're in control of your life? And if you are unhappy, you can change it. And if you identify the things that are wrong, you can change them. But I think.

• 12:37Esther Perel?

  Were you in a situation where you had to be the one to identify it?

• 12:42Speaker 00

  I don't understand, I'm sorry.

• 12:45Esther Perel?

  If things are wrong, you can change it. Sometimes includes the fact that you were the one who had to notice that they were wrong.

• 12:57Speaker 00

  Who else is gonna notice?

• 13:00Esther Perel?

  Those who are meant to protect you when you're little.

• 13:09Speaker 00

  You're not supposed to go all the way.

• 13:12Esther Perel?

  Hmm.

• 13:19Speaker 00

  I mean.

• 13:21Speaker 00

  I wasn't, I didn't. I didn't wanna talk about this, but um.

• 13:28Speaker 00

  But I forgive these people. I really forgive them.

• 13:34Speaker 00

  And it wasn't that bad. I think I was just a dramatic kid.

• 13:41Speaker 00

  But yeah, I mean.

• 13:42Esther Perel?

  Hold on one moment. First of all. Don't go where you don't wanna go.

• 13:48Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 13:49Esther Perel?

  But if you. If you do, it's okay. I'm here with you.

• 13:54Speaker 00

  Okay, it's nothing I haven't said before to them, so they know.

• 13:59Esther Perel?

  It's like. What I'm hearing. Is that when you get angry.

• 14:05Esther Perel?

  You will get angry like someone who is fighting for her life.

• 14:10Esther Perel?

  And someone who's fighting for her security. And someone who's fighting for people who don't show up for you.

• 14:19Esther Perel?

  It looks like you're talking about picking up the kids with your ex-husband or with your co-parent or parallel parent, but in fact. You're going to a very different place. None of this is articulated. But it's viscerally felt in your body, which is why you feel like you're getting angry at a level that you don't feel you can control and that they think is out of control.

• 14:44Esther Perel?

  But there are roots to this.

• 14:47Speaker 00

  It makes sense.

• 14:50Speaker 00

  Um, I don't know what to say after that.

• 14:53Esther Perel?

  It's okay, we can sit for a minute and just absorb this.

• 14:58Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 15:00Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 15:08Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break, so. Stay with us. And let's see where this goes.

• 15:23Speaker 03

  Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So, since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs. TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.

• 16:07Speaker 04

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 16:34Speaker 05

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• 17:06Speaker 00

  Okay, so now what do I do? I don't know.

• 17:10Esther Perel?

  So, I'm just gonna ask you in my language. If you fight to control people who are trying to do you wrong, what is he doing?

• 17:22Speaker 00

  That's a good question, too. Um, man, I don't know. He definitely has trauma. I think one of his earliest memories is that, and I don't think he remembers. But his mother decided to leave his father in the middle of the night and she took him with her. When he was two.

• 17:49Esther Perel?

  And when did he see his father again?

• 17:52Speaker 00

  I think not long after they, he definitely lived with both of them growing up. But it was, I think, just the decision was very abrupt. So that happened to him and I mean, other things have happened to him. I guess when I think about that though, and and he'll, his mother got remarried and they kind of. I don't think they ever spoke fondly of each other. Maybe they limited how much bad they said, but I think the mother really regretted being with the father. And the father. I don't know, he's harder to read for me.

• 18:33Esther Perel?

  Do you have active grandparents?

• 18:35Speaker 00

  So my parents are active grandparents because they live in the same area. His family all lives um across the country. So they, they don't really know the kids, not really.

• 18:49Esther Perel?

  Um hum.

• 18:51Esther Perel?

  The reason I'm asking you this is also because you said before. Our relationship was going down pretty much from the moment it started.

• 19:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:03Esther Perel?

  And usually, when that happens, there's a good chance that people are bringing. Certain vulnerabilities and wounds with them.

• 19:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:14Esther Perel?

  That make being in a relationship very challenging for them.

• 19:20Speaker 00

  Yes, I would say we both started the relationship in. Turbulent moments.

• 19:27Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 19:30Esther Perel?

  And a part of you is trying to put some of these pieces together at this moment.

• 19:38Speaker 00

  Every part of me is trying to put all these pieces back together at this moment.

• 19:43Esther Perel?

  Um hum. Why now?

• 19:46Speaker 00

  You know, I feel like I have um a lot of potential to live a better life. And to live a better life for my family. And make our lives just beautiful and good. And however, I can do that. I wanna, I wanna take the step.

• 20:10Esther Perel?

  And your current husband? He's on that path with you?

• 20:17Speaker 00

  Yes, he is. He's great.

• 20:21Speaker 00

  He's got a firm kindness. He's gonna tell me what he's thinking, which I need.

• 20:28Esther Perel?

  Sometimes what helps to put pieces together is when we know what it is that we tend to fight for.

• 20:40Esther Perel?

  Not what we fight about, but what we fight for.

• 20:46Esther Perel?

  Are we fighting for security, for control, for love, for attention?

• 20:53Esther Perel?

  What are we fighting for? And then, what's the story behind it?

• 20:59Speaker 00

  I don't like, I don't like that I'm gonna say this, but I'm gonna say it. Um, I think sometimes I just want him to know that I'm hurt. And so, I tried to shame him into I'm not sure if what I'm saying is totally accurate, but I think this is this is a small part and, and, and sometimes true. So the most recent fight we had, um, and it's been a while, is I was dropping them off. Which I don't normally have to do. And I had emailed him a while ago.

• 21:40Speaker 00

  And one of our issues, he doesn't respond to my emails. So I emailed him something important about tuition. And he never got back to me. And then when I tried to bring it up as I was dropping off the kids. Um, we just. Blew up, both of us, like.

• 22:01Speaker 00

  Like, so he said, well, it's not fair, whatever, and I. I was trying to tell him how it is fair, cause it really is the right thing. It really is the fair thing. If you compute all the numbers. But he and her both just. Ultimately, she said, I don't know, I don't even know what I said, but he she said to me. How dare you come to my house and talk to me like that? And I wasn't even talking to her, and I don't even know what I said, and I know I had lost my temper, but I don't remember saying anything like. Crazy or really bad or like, I was just just upset about the tuition.

• 22:43Speaker 00

  And then, and this, this is very fast, this is like one minute, okay? And then, I I don't even, I was still talking, I think, and they closed the door, and I was mad that they closed the door on me. And I didn't say goodbye to my daughter, and they, it was a long, they were planning to stay there for ten days. They usually only stay there for three days. So I was like, I didn't get to hug her and, um. I was also mad about the tuition, but I was more just mad at the way I was shut down. So I rung the doorbell like ten times. Because I was afraid that they weren't gonna answer the door. I felt like they were gonna ignore me, cause they always ignore me. And then they brought my daughter out and I gave her a hug and I, but and obviously I had made a scene in front of my daughter now.

• 23:27Speaker 00

  And I'm embarrassed and I I think I did something wrong, and I know I did something wrong, but I also just feel so raw. And so I'm just hugging her, I'm just holding her, I have nothing to say to her. I have nothing to say, but I just don't wanna let her go, and I feel like, I just feel like I messed everything up. And then, um. And I was so mad too, I was so mad. I'd never been so mad at them, never so, like. Like, I've been mad, but like, just the way, obviously, I'm. I I felt like I wrote, I reached like a breaking point that I never reached before. And then she went back in, and then I went back to my car. And I'm fuming. And I'm I'm upset and I'm just not in, I'm not, I'm not comfortable in my skin.

• 24:12Speaker 00

  And I can't drive, I don't even know where to go. I don't know the directions without GPS. But then. We were texting and I, I, I'm not supposed to privately text him ever. I'm never supposed to privately text him, that's against the rules. I'm supposed to group text.

• 24:30Speaker 00

  But I privately texted him and I said, you are a coward.

• 24:35Speaker 00

  Because you let her treat me this way. And I don't remember what else I said, but I said, I said something to hurt him, you know? That's what, I think that's the point. Um. I forget.

• 24:48Esther Perel?

  You wanted to stick it to him so that he would feel some of the hurt that you were feeling?

• 24:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, and as my mom said, I think I wanted. I I said other things, like I'm trying to appeal to his reason. I think that if I just tell him how he's being a jerk, he's gonna know.

• 25:12Esther Perel?

  Okay, how is that going?

• 25:18Speaker 00

  That doesn't work.

• 25:24Esther Perel?

  So mom said that you wanted what?

• 25:27Speaker 00

  Um, she thinks he's just inherently unreasonable person. And he has trouble understanding logic and how to treat people.

• 25:36Esther Perel?

  Yeah, but we don't need more ammunition about what's wrong with him.

• 25:40Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 25:42Esther Perel?

  Okay, that's not helping you and in effect, you. Were experiencing overwhelm and dysregulation and shame. For what you had just done and experienced and you wanted to fire back the same. Material onto him.

• 26:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:04Esther Perel?

  And so you're not gonna get much out of him by shaming him like you were not getting much from you. And he, they were not getting much from you by shaming you. And so now my question to you is this, when you lose it, what does it mean? You feel humiliated, you feel that they are.

• 26:27Esther Perel?

  Excluding you, making fun of you, denying you, what what actually happens? Because anger is the manifestation, but the feeling is more layered.

• 26:41Speaker 00

  So there's two parts to that, right? There's what's happening inside me

• 26:44Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 26:45Speaker 00

  in my emotion and then what do I think I'm losing? Like, what what am I losing in myself and what am I losing in the relationship? And in myself, I feel like I'm letting myself down. I mean, I know that that's, I think, in my life, like, it's one of, it's like the thing I've tried to change the most about me.

• 27:07Esther Perel?

  Is?

• 27:10Speaker 00

  Is to not get mad at other people when I'm unhappy. When something is difficult, when I'm frustrated, I think I take the blame out on the world around me and the people that are closest to me.

• 27:26Esther Perel?

  And if you put that voice outside for a moment, the one that blames others, holds them responsible, attacks them, and you put it aside for a moment, then what? And there is no space, then what's the thing that that then comes up?

• 27:46Speaker 00

  Then I'm hurting people I love, and I I don't want to do that. I don't ever want to hurt somebody. I know what it feels like to be hurt, and I don't want to hurt anybody. And I'm hurting people.

• 27:57Esther Perel?

  But nobody is born blaming others. That's something we learn.

• 28:05Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 28:07Esther Perel?

  And sometimes for good reasons, or at least understandable circumstances that contribute to it. And then we take this strategy, this adaptive strategy, and we begin to apply it to all kinds of other people when it's not necessarily that justified anymore.

• 28:34Speaker 00

  Right.

• 28:39Speaker 06

  We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad free, click the try free button to subscribe to Astera's Office Hours on Apple Podcasts.

• 28:57Speaker 04

  Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.

• 29:23Speaker 05

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• 29:54Speaker 05

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• 30:26Esther Perel?

  So what's the story behind that?

• 30:30Speaker 00

  I don't know. I think that might be generational. I mean, my parents don't have a good relationship. I mean, they don't have a terrible relationship now, but...

• 30:44Speaker 00

  I've never heard my mom... Mom say something nice about my dad.

• 30:50Speaker 00

  Well, not never, but. Most of the time, no. And I definitely hea- heard that girl, like. Her regular way of being with my father is to yell at him. Or like say he did something wrong. Maybe I just copied it. Or, listen, I saw her perspective. Because she wasn't wrong in the things she said, but I think she was also unfair sometimes, um. But my father, like, I didn't really have trouble with my mother growing up. I had trouble with my father, so I definitely. Listen to her. What kind of trouble?

• 31:35Speaker 00

  Um, well, the biggest thing was that he. Scared me, um, like I was really afraid of him and.

• 31:48Speaker 00

  He gave me reason to be afraid of him. He never hurt me, but he did threaten me to the point where. I was terrified and he did put his hands on me sometimes, but.

• 32:08Speaker 00

  I mean, like, once he threw me into a wall, but I was okay. And once he pushed me into the street where there's like a huge. Like, it's like a highway, like, like six lanes kind of thing. And he probably looked to make sure there was no cars, but I didn't feel that when I was pushed as a little kid into the street.

• 32:30Speaker 00

  And, um, he said.

• 32:34Speaker 00

  A lot of times that he would kill me and I saw him.

• 32:44Speaker 00

  I don't really wanna say all these things. But I also do wanna say them. I just don't want, I don't want

• 32:52Speaker 00

  him to hear, because I, I really have forgiven him.

• 32:56Esther Perel?

  Listen. You don't have to neither justify nor excuse.

• 33:04Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 33:04Esther Perel?

  Nor trivialize, nor relativize.

• 33:07Speaker 00

  But I, I also wanna say that I

• 33:10Esther Perel?

  I hear you.

• 33:11Speaker 00

  I understand that he never wanted to hurt me or him, cuz he never did.

• 33:19Esther Perel?

  And on top of that, I hear you. And I hear how much you're trying to not have this define your whole relationship with him.

• 33:32Esther Perel?

  But it did define some of your nervous system.

• 33:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:38Esther Perel?

  It did define some of your coping strategies.

• 33:42Speaker 00

  Yes, good.

• 33:45Esther Perel?

  And it did define how some things happens to you when you get extremely mad.

• 33:55Esther Perel?

  And you get extremely mad when you feel that you are being pushed aside.

• 34:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, that might be even a separate thing.

• 34:05Esther Perel?

  We can't touch on all of the things.

• 34:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:08Esther Perel?

  So I'm gonna go back to your question. Because there's so many things we could really address here. But your original question, which is what can I do to change the stalemate? This gridlock that I'm experiencing with the father of my children and his new partner, his new wife?

• 34:32Esther Perel?

  Can I do something for this to change? And it's not gonna be a one thing fits all.

• 34:39Speaker 00

  Right.

• 34:39Esther Perel?

  This is gonna be a process where I need to gradually change and convince them that I am changing.

• 34:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:49Esther Perel?

  Why? Because I want it to be different.

• 34:53Esther Perel?

  And I should remember that, and that's my North Star.

• 34:58Esther Perel?

  Even if they think we knew it all along, even if they think we were always, whatever they think is irrelevant, because what matters is that I want to establish a different rapport.

• 35:09Speaker 00

  Okay, yeah, I don't have to be right.

• 35:13Esther Perel?

  No, you wanna be smart, you're gonna be wise, you don't have to be right. And wise is to simply say it's in the benefit of our little kiddos, for the two of us, or the three of us, or the four of us, to be able to communicate.

• 35:32Speaker 00

  Hmm, yeah.

• 35:35Esther Perel?

  And not to escalate immediately.

• 35:41Speaker 00

  I hope I can do that.

• 35:43Esther Perel?

  You're not gonna be able to do it instantly, and it's not gonna transform magically.

• 35:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:50Esther Perel?

  So at first, you're actually not gonna say anything to them, you're gonna act differently.

• 35:57Esther Perel?

  The communication will change somewhat when you, yeah.

• 36:02Speaker 00

  That's always been part of the issue, and I know I just have to accept this part of the issue. I never have an opportunity to be around them or to communicate with them, like, like a one-line text message or an email that's...

• 36:18Speaker 00

  Most emails that I try to talk about this kind of stuff don't get responded to.

• 36:22Esther Perel?

  They don't have to, they don't have to. You will simply say when something is done nicely, you will say, "This was very kind, this was very nice, this suits them really well, this was very special for them, wanted to appreciate, to share my appreciation for this, for that." You do not need answers, this is non-contingent.

• 36:44Speaker 00

  Okay, I understand what you're saying. I did that actually, this, this New Year's.

• 36:50Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 36:53Speaker 00

  And I have to not be upset that they didn't say anything back because I already know they're not gonna say anything back.

• 36:57Esther Perel?

  No, the person who's gonna say something back is you.

• 37:01Esther Perel?

  You're just gonna say back to yourself, that's how I wanted to be or to act and I'm glad I did it. And I appreciate my gesture.

• 37:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:12Esther Perel?

  This is who I want to be. This is not to show them anything.

• 37:18Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 37:19Esther Perel?

  This is who I want to be so I can broaden my repertoire.

• 37:22Speaker 00

  I understand.

• 37:25Esther Perel?

  This is, interestingly, I change how I am. And then the communication will improve. Rather than I say things to them, I hope that they instantly respond to me because I did one new gesture.

• 37:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:43Esther Perel?

  Because by now they're trained.

• 37:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:48Esther Perel?

  They anticipate much of what comes from you to be negative.

• 37:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I'm very aware of that.

• 37:57Esther Perel?

  A little bit like your dad with your mom.

• 38:00Speaker 00

  Which, who's, whom I?

• 38:05Esther Perel?

  Well, anything, anything that he does, she will criticize.

• 38:10Speaker 00

  Oh, I'm my dad.

• 38:12Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:12Speaker 00

  And they're my mom.

• 38:14Esther Perel?

  No.

• 38:16Speaker 00

  Oh, both then.

• 38:19Esther Perel?

  Interchangeable roles here, you see? I'm gonna let you guess who is who. You know, your communication to them is much of the time negative.

• 38:30Speaker 00

  You're right.

• 38:31Esther Perel?

  Their communication with you is not to respond so as not to escalate. Because they don't anticipate that if they say anything, your response will not be upping the ante.

• 38:46Esther Perel?

  So what you call they don't respond to me is most of the time they're trying to just not engage.

• 38:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:55Esther Perel?

  Because they don't anticipate any much positive coming from you.

• 39:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, that hurts. I mean, not, not, I mean, it hurts, not they're hurting me, I mean. I see, I s- I see what I've done, is what I mean.

• 39:15Esther Perel?

  Meaning what I say hurts.

• 39:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, but I'm be, I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

• 39:21Esther Perel?

  No, no, I'm not hurting you, but I understand what you're saying. It hurts to know that that's what's happening.

• 39:29Speaker 00

  But it's also good to know because I um, I have been, I know I'm, I know I was doing something wrong.

• 39:38Esther Perel?

  You know, I'm gonna change the language for a moment.

• 39:41Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 39:42Esther Perel?

  Because interestingly, I don't have a sense that you came here today to badmouth anybody.

• 39:49Speaker 00

  No.

• 39:50Esther Perel?

  Not your mom, not your dad, not your ex, not your co-parent, nobody. I have a feeling that you came here today to say, I'm stuck. I know I contribute to this. I can't change them, but I wanna at least change some of what I do. I wanna broaden the repertoire.

• 40:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:08Esther Perel?

  I can do better.

• 40:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 40:11Esther Perel?

  And I hear that loud and clear. You want your sense of agency back. You wanna feel like you're not trapped and neither are they.

• 40:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:23Esther Perel?

  Or did I just touch?

• 40:26Speaker 00

  Oh my god, um, I think that's part of it is that, I guess I've been using the wrong language to describe it sometimes in that, I think um, they think I'm like a bad person.

• 40:41Speaker 00

  And um.

• 40:44Speaker 00

  Maybe that's because I think I'm a bad person, but. Um, it's just. It's validating the right word. It's nice to be seen that.

• 40:56Speaker 00

  My intentions are good, but I've just not realized how I've.

• 41:02Speaker 00

  How I've.

• 41:03Esther Perel?

  Convinced them that I'm off sometimes.

• 41:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, I convinced them.

• 41:09Esther Perel?

  Yes, yes.

• 41:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:10Esther Perel?

  And you need help, by the way. This is not so easy to do all alone. So you may need professional help so that somebody guides you. I think you're full of honesty. Basically, you're telling me I know I'm doing something. That la- lands me in the in the place where I don't wanna be. And I can't control it, so to speak. I can't, I can't contain it. It bursts out of me and it flies everywhere and fundamentally, they probably by now see me as someone. Who is erratic and explosive and angry and. All they try to do is keep me on minimum heat.

• 41:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:56Esther Perel?

  So you're not gonna do this for them. You're not not gonna do this to change their mind of you and their opinion of you. That will come afterwards. You're gonna do this. Because you're saying to yourself.

• 42:11Esther Perel?

  Some of the things I need to look at, I need to get some insight about, and I need to see if I can change how I behave.

• 42:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's interesting and funny because I. I didn't always feel this way about myself, but when I look in the mirror, I just feel like that's like a.

• 42:33Speaker 00

  Angry, unhappy person.

• 42:39Speaker 00

  And I don't wanna be that person. Like I, I physically see that about me. And I wanna change.

• 42:49Esther Perel?

  It'll be different for your kids too. And you seem to have a partner who can also help you with some of it.

• 42:59Speaker 00

  Yes. I mean, it's the kids that.

• 43:04Speaker 00

  That's, that's, I didn't talk about my kids, but the kids are.

• 43:11Speaker 00

  I mean, the kids are why everything. The kids are why I'm even talking to him still. I mean, I want them to grow.

• 43:21Speaker 00

  And just be happy, not like me. Not like me right now. I want them to live better.

• 43:29Esther Perel?

  So you have a plan?

• 43:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:33Esther Perel?

  You have a plan, you have a mission. It will take time. I just wanna be very clear. This is not a one-time flip like that. And it demands guidance and it demands insight. Because there's a lot of dots to connect here. We just named them and we kind of strewn them around. But it needs more careful consideration. And, and it needs you to learn to breathe, to calm down. To regulate yourself so that you don't feel like you're being hijacked on the spot.

• 44:14Esther Perel?

  When people feel helpless, they become explosive and mad.

• 44:21Esther Perel?

  And they lose control in an attempt to gain control.

• 44:27Esther Perel?

  The piece of this is to give yourself a moment. Before you react. To ask yourself, how do I wanna react?

• 44:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:40Esther Perel?

  It's to create that little space in between.

• 44:45Esther Perel?

  Between reaction or action and reaction.

• 44:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, I feel this in every aspect of my life.

• 44:53Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 44:54Speaker 00

  Every, every interaction, every conversation I have with somebody, every, even just when I'm cooking, like when I'm by myself.

• 45:03Esther Perel?

  And that may be that you first go into your body and you make room inside physically with breath and with stretch, just so that it lands somewhere, rather than that it reverberates on you.

• 45:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:20Esther Perel?

  I know we touched on a lot of different things.

• 45:23Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 45:23Esther Perel?

  That are away from the question that you came in with, but I hope that you will connect the dots.

• 45:31Speaker 00

  I really appreciate the conversation. It's, it's not what I thought it was gonna, where I thought it was gonna go. And it's better because I was actually reluctant to come on here because I was afraid I was gonna go backwards by kind of saying, oh, he does this and this, I don't like this. And I, I know that's not the direction I wanna go. So I really appreciate that. Um, we, we took it, we took it all the way back.

• 46:03Esther Perel?

  Good. That voice of he does this, he does that, he does this wrong, you know that voice. You need a different one.

• 46:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:13Esther Perel?

  Okay. Thank you very, very much. And find the help, find some version of the help.

• 46:22Speaker 00

  I will. Thank you.

• 46:24Esther Perel?

  You're welcome. Bye bye.

• 46:38Speaker 06

  This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther and could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to [email protected]. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne Hatton. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider.

• 47:20Speaker 06

  And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

• 47:35Speaker 03

  Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs, TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.

• 48:19Speaker 04

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