Pod Insights Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel You are Vocal on the Criticism But Silent on the Compliments About this episode She feels abandoned by him, he feels choked by her, and their marriage is at a tipping point. They are a couple so focused on their kids that they have lost their connection and their sense of self. Despite creating a life story where family is the center of everything, they feel completely alone. Can Esther help them write a new story?
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Transcript 9,465 words · 16 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Speaker 00 None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin? is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.
0:25 Speaker 01 Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So, since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs. TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.
1:09 Speaker 02 I'm Josh Mucchio, host of The Pitch, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. For our sweet season 16, we're giving you more of what you love and less of what you don't. Software is out. Actual cool stuff is in. We've got consumer brands, deep tech that changes the weather.
1:28 Speaker 03 Our big vision is to make it rain and snow on demand.
1:31 Speaker 02 We've got hardware that helps blind people see and dairy.
1:35 Speaker 04 I never imagined my life journey would be milk.
1:38 Speaker 02 Season 16 of The Pitch is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. This season is presented by Engine.
1:47 Speaker 05 We have times where I feel like we're the happiest. I'm so in love with him. We have like four weeks where I'm like on cloud nine after 16 years. And then something happens like with his family. The second I say anything, he turns into like completely different person, cold, super like awful. And then I want to definitely leave and I feel like I'm in the worst marriage and I feel like it's probably not even fixable.
2:18 Speaker 06 When we do argue, I shut down. And I would just kind of like not be close to her for like days and days. Just because I feel so angry. And I just hold it all in. We've kind of adapted to being just very focused around the family and raising our kids. And we lost a lot of that touch with who we are as individuals. But I feel like I'm completely by myself in a way, just doing the best that I can for my family.
2:48 Esther Perel? They have both been the responsible child. Him to a large family as the golden boy. And her to a very small family, growing up under communism in Eastern Europe, but where she had to be responsible for herself alone and her brother. They've been together for 16 years and they really carved out a course for themselves on their own. But they're really at the tipping point. Before they come in, she filed for divorce. Each of them basically describes how they're feeling too alone. She feels abandoned by him, he feels choked by her.
3:28 Esther Perel? I have read the intake and I can see the pages of problems that they are wanting to present to us and the stories that accompany those problems. And I decided it's time to start very differently. So here we go.
3:49 Esther Perel? Tell me, what are the strengths of your relationship?
3:53 Speaker 08 I think a strength is that we've been together all of these years and we spend a lot of time together. Like we hardly have lives outside of our marriage where we're just like individuals, very independent. We do everything together and we spend a lot of time together.
4:08 Esther Perel? By choice?
4:09 Speaker 08 By choice.
4:10 Esther Perel? By mutual choice?
4:11 Speaker 08 By mutual choice. And that could be a strength and that could also be a source of some of the other issues. And within that, we share the same values for our kids. And our kids are very central to us. As soon as they came into our lives, everything that we do is with them in mind. To the point where... It creates a lot of blind spots for us in terms of like taking care of ourselves and of our relationship to each other. And so our kids are homeschooled. We spend so much time with them. And so from my perspective, what I feel is missing the most from my life is us having one-on-one time where we go out on dates or we do stuff, just us.
4:49 Speaker 09 We don't have really support around us because, you know, we lived in London, Sweden, like everywhere we go, we do everything alone. I know people leave kids alone, like maybe earlier than we do. But for us, I felt like it was better to a little bit wait, but the pressure of us doing everything constantly alone without a support. There's a year which goes by, we don't have a date.
5:11 Speaker 08 Yeah, easily. And so I've.
5:13 Speaker 09 Like easily to.
5:14 Speaker 08 So I brought up a strength and I'm also kind of drawing out what comes with that as well. Like she's also very good at running the home. She's a stay-at-home mom and so she's running the house often. And sometimes when there's opportunities to do things, I feel like she can make excuses to kind of like not pursue certain. For example, like I might have a trip coming up where we can go to Mexico as a couple. And I'm like, that's gonna be great. And that might be coming from work. But she's saying like, no, you should go with our son instead and you guys have a good time because I need to take care of the dog and.
5:46 Speaker 09 And the other kids.
5:48 Speaker 08 So that's the pattern that we've had for years now.
5:51 Esther Perel? The pattern being, I reach out and I suggest opportunities for us to connect just you and me. And you, in your very responsible fashion, find explanations for why this cannot be.
6:09 Speaker 08 Yes.
6:11 Esther Perel? What you just are highlighting here are what happens when you reach out with a bid for connection? Let's go do this, let's do that. Something that is a statement that pertains to the two of you. Give me an example of one when it was received well.
6:33 Speaker 08 She came to my work holiday party.
6:36 Speaker 09 Mm hmm.
6:36 Speaker 08 So the two of us were able to do that. It took a lot of figuring out, but I think you had a good time, right?
6:44 Speaker 09 I had a good time, yeah.
6:46 Esther Perel? Mm hmm. Can you say this out loud?
6:51 Esther Perel? I had a good time, that's all.
6:54 Speaker 09 I mean, it wasn't, it wouldn't be my choice of a date, but yes.
6:57 Esther Perel? I had a good time.
6:58 Speaker 09 I had a good time.
6:59 Esther Perel? And here's the piece. I appreciate that you pushed for it.
7:06 Speaker 09 That's true, I appreciate that you pushed for it.
7:09 Esther Perel? It's these connective tissues that are missing at this moment. Even when something good happens, it demands that you actually state something good has happened. Because you've become very accustomed at telling each other whatever has not happened. You're very voluble on the criticism.
7:40 Esther Perel? And quite famished on the appreciations.
7:46 Speaker 08 Yes, I feel like that foundation needs to be there where we have a connection beyond our family unit as a couple. And that that would address a lot of the things where I might be failing as a partner.
8:00 Speaker 09 I just, literally, I sit here and it just came over me that I am like a hundred percent opposite of what my pa- my parents would be thousand percent opposite. My mother would go out to every single event at her work. They would go out as much as they could. We were alone. I remember the first time I was taking care of my brother since I was like, we did daily groceries at the age of seven. We did entire summers of manual labor, where growing up food, you know, it's communist country, so if you wanna have different food, you gotta figure out how to grow it.
8:34 Esther Perel? Yeah.
8:35 Speaker 09 And uh, my mother just is extremely social person and workaholic. So when you combine the social life with working nonstop. You know, and then I hated it to be alone with my brother that much, for sure. And I think I was like ten when they took her first time for a weekend. And for three days, and I didn't think we were ready to like live by ourselves like that. So I'm now thinking, I almost made it like my mission to not do the mistakes my parents made with us. I just wanna make sure all the creatures in my care feel so loved and taken care of.
9:11 Esther Perel? I am going to invite you into another way of looking at this.
9:18 Esther Perel? You made a choice to do the exact opposite, but you're doing it with the same energy.
9:28 Speaker 09 Like what they do?
9:29 Esther Perel? Yeah. She had all the explanations for why she couldn't be home, and you have all the explanations for why you can't leave home.
9:38 Speaker 09 That's very true. I know.
9:42 Esther Perel? If you look at a choice, then it's different. But if you look at a way, it's unbelievable how you set out to outdo your mother.
9:55 Esther Perel? And that began to feel to me like it's the dominant thread of your life. Is I'm going to do it better than you, Mom. I'm not working outside the house, I'm not gone all the time, I'm glued.
10:11 Esther Perel? I'm glued because I missed out on love. And when we feel abandoned, our coping mechanism is to glue people to us.
10:24 Esther Perel? But the energy, I would almost say the rigidity with which you're doing it, which is why he gets all the explanations for why no.
10:38 Esther Perel? Is I have a feeling remarkably similar to her. And my goal, or our goal, would be to give you the permission to finally be really different.
10:52 Speaker 09 Oh my God, I would love that. I hundred percent agree with what you said. I really think I'm doing different thing with the same energy.
11:07 Esther Perel? I'm listening to the boldness with which I instantly, within 10 minutes of the session, addressed with her the certitude of her story. But it is exactly because she was so convinced that she's doing differently, that what was so obvious was how similar it actually was. Indeed, mom was always gone and she would never go anywhere. But the fervor, the conviction, the non-negotiable stance that was invested in this was actually really one and the same. And here's this crucial moment of the session. She could have looked at me and said,
11:52 Esther Perel? "What are you talking about?" And I would have had to completely step back and first create an alliance with her. But what happened is that it landed so strongly that the alliance was created through the intervention. And from that moment, I felt that she trusted me, that I could say things. And I hear how stuck she is in her story, in this narrative. I heard it also in the intake interview. Same words, same story. And so those are the moments when I go back to one of the first things I said when I started the podcast, which was when a couple comes to see me,
12:37 Esther Perel? they come in with a story. And the goal of at least the first session is for them to leave with a different story. And with her, it just went very, very, very fast. From that moment on, the door had opened.
12:55 Speaker 09 Before we move forward, do you want, I just wanted to very quickly touch upon what I think is great about us, because I feel like I didn't have a goal. Well, first of all, our mothers adore each other, which that alone is like such a, no, that is like directly about our relationship. But the fact that my mom absolutely loves his mom, you know what I mean? I think that's very right in like in laws. But with us, so we, when I met him, like originally.
13:20 Esther Perel? He's right here.
13:21 Speaker 09 And I think, I felt like I've never met anybody like him before.
13:24 Esther Perel? You, just talk to him in the second person.
13:28 Speaker 09 Okay.
13:32 Speaker 09 Like I saw his, you know, I always think like our hands are very special on people and like I saw his hands and I saw him working and I saw him like.
13:39 Esther Perel? Stop, stop.
13:41 Speaker 09 Okay, okay.
13:42 Esther Perel? Tell. Here's the. Yes, it's much harder. It's much harder.
13:48 Speaker 09 So I should tell him as like I'm telling him right now.
13:50 Esther Perel? That's correct. Yes.
13:52 Speaker 09 I'd rather birth a third baby, but let me just.
13:58 Esther Perel? He's about to say nice things, you know, there's not much really to be worried about. But look what happens when we've gotten so into the criticism and the negative feedback all the time.
14:07 Speaker 09 I know.
14:08 Esther Perel? How suddenly it becomes the most vulnerable thing to say something nice. But I love the fact that you said, I do wanna first say something that I also value.
14:18 Speaker 09 Yeah.
14:18 Esther Perel? Cause we had left it out and it was really the right step.
14:23 Speaker 09 Thank you, thank you. So I love our sex and you know that. I don't know if he loves it as much as I do, but um. You know, I love you so much and. You know, my favorite part is when we're at home because. I feel very special and it makes me feel really good at home. When you're not influenced of anything outside, like your family or other people or the social norms.
14:50 Speaker 09 You see me for truly who I am and I think that's why we have such a good sex life. I know.
14:55 Speaker 08 And how do you see me in the way I am at home versus the way I'm outside of the home?
15:00 Speaker 09 Well, you know that drastically different.
15:02 Speaker 08 That's why I'm asking and cause that's something.
15:04 Speaker 09 But that's not a strong point now. We're highlighting the good things. This is the bad stuff.
15:09 Speaker 08 But you love me being at home so much because of the way you are and also because of the way I am at home?
15:15 Speaker 09 Yeah.
15:15 Speaker 08 Versus the way I am outside of the home?
15:17 Speaker 09 Yeah.
15:18 Speaker 08 That also plays into it, right?
15:21 Speaker 09 Yeah.
15:23 Speaker 08 Which it's worth chatting about as well at some point.
15:26 Speaker 09 Well, yeah.
15:27 Esther Perel? Try something else.
15:31 Esther Perel? Shall we?
15:32 Speaker 08 Sure.
15:33 Esther Perel? Okay.
15:36 Esther Perel? If somebody says, "Your soup was delicious."
15:41 Esther Perel? "I love your soup."
15:44 Esther Perel? What do you think is a better response? "Thank you, I enjoy hearing that." Or, "But you don't like my apple pie."
15:55 Speaker 08 That's true. That's a good point.
15:57 Esther Perel? Okay.
15:59 Speaker 08 Mm-hmm.
16:00 Esther Perel? I know you are eager, but nothing will change if you can't re-establish
16:10 Esther Perel? that more tender, kind,
16:14 Esther Perel? appreciative part of the relationship. And not just about the unit. And she was talking about you.
16:25 Esther Perel? She actually was not talking about the family.
16:27 Speaker 08 That's right.
16:28 Esther Perel? But I don't even know if you could hear it.
16:34 Esther Perel? So, we'll do it again.
16:37 Speaker 09 You want me to keep going, saying good things?
16:39 Esther Perel? Hmm, hmm. Whatever else you wanted to say. And you can do it face to face, or you can whisper.
16:44 Speaker 09 I mean, the easiest for me would be me telling you.
16:47 Esther Perel? No.
16:48 Speaker 09 Why?
16:48 Esther Perel? Because, what, for what?
16:51 Speaker 09 Because it's the easiest.
16:52 Esther Perel? I know it. It's easy to say things to me, but it doesn't really change the dynamic between the two of you. Just practice it.
17:01 Speaker 09 Okay. You know, I love how you are with the boys. Of course, I think you're the best dad.
17:09 Speaker 08 Thank you, honey.
17:10 Speaker 09 In some ways. When you, as far as your interaction with them. Of course, I think you could spend more time with them when you come back. Oh my God, now we're doing the same thing. Um.
17:20 Esther Perel? Excellent.
17:21 Speaker 09 I caught myself. You see that?
17:23 Esther Perel? Yes, yes. That filter is essential. Perfect editing.
17:28 Speaker 09 Thank you.
17:32 Esther Perel? She heard what I had said to him and she caught it when she did it herself. Basically, it had come to a place where they couldn't say one positive statement that wasn't qualified and that didn't have a "but" in there. And when there is a "but", we tend to hear the second part of the sentence more than the first. So, there was a reason that I started the session asking them, "Tell me about what's good, what's strong, what's an asset." Partly it's because I could sense they were just eager to plunge into the problems. And we are better able to deal with the problems when they sit on top of a foundation of something that is good.
18:18 Esther Perel? So, that's why I had asked. And it's such a powerful diagnostic question. Are people actually able to say this without qualification? Are they able to say it to the person that they're saying it to? Or do they look at me? Because it's actually too vulnerable to look at a person and say, "You are a fantastic father. You're my preferred lover. I loved your hands from the first day I met him." She tells him a lot of very special things, but she realizes that when you've developed a kind of a carapace and a defensive position in a relationship, saying nice things to the other, to their face, has become quite vulnerable.
19:04 Speaker 09 And, of course, I also love how you are with my family. I see why everybody loves you at your job. But just because the way you treat people, you know, it's so rare. And, you know, I kind of love how we did everything alone, in a way. And I love how we always toughen up like the hard times.
19:24 Speaker 08 Yeah.
19:25 Speaker 09 Because it's like, we're always alone, right? Because we're so good together sometimes. I feel like we're so perfect.
19:38 Speaker 09 Because we know each other so well and because we... I think at the end of the day, we still feel like we've never met anyone like each other, you know?
19:50 Speaker 08 Yeah. Yeah, I feel the same way.
19:57 Esther Perel? The word "alone" is at the heart of her experience. And in part, she was alone when mom wasn't home and was always out. But her experience now is that we are alone. We are two, breathing the strength into one. And therefore, I am not alone in the way I used to feel. I'm alone and strong. I'm not alone and scared because we are together. But there is an aspiration toward merging that also is part of the way she describes the oneness.
20:45 Speaker 08 And then, one of the things that's difficult for us is how different I grew up with my family and when I interact with them. I wonder how you see me and what it does to you. When I interact with my siblings, with my parents, I often feel like you think I love them more and like I want to spend more time with them. Or when we involve other people in our family, sometimes it's hard because of how different they are culturally and because of my relationship and the way I am with them. I guess because of the way I was raised, we're so close. And that put a lot of extra tension.
21:28 Speaker 09 I mean, that's why I filed for divorce because the way his family is, massive problem for us. And it's like there's this part of me which I love them so much.
21:37 Esther Perel? You filed for divorce?
21:39 Speaker 09 Well, I mean, like, almost. I emailed his mother that I'm doing it. It was like five weeks ago. I was like, "That's it." This was the closest we've ever been to splitting up. And it's a situation where...
21:52 Esther Perel? One second, one second, because we're about to shift.
21:59 Esther Perel? Is it an amazing non-sequitur? From all of what you just said, you go into the "that's why I filed for divorce"?
22:06 Speaker 09 From family, yeah, because of the relationship.
22:09 Esther Perel? And what happens to all what you just said?
22:13 Speaker 09 I was dead hurt that I thought it erased it. I don't know. It was secondary. Because at the end of the day, I feel like
22:26 Speaker 09 if he's not gonna be with me all the way and take my side, I need to be around and healthy until at least the kids are like eighteen and can go and do whatever they want.
22:36 Speaker 09 So if I am the only one making sure I'm standing, then
22:41 Speaker 09 yeah, I did think it was bigger than all the good stuff.
22:47 Esther Perel? The very behavior that she is bemoaning vis-à-vis his family and how he takes their side and how he loves them so much is exactly what initially attracted her, which was that he loved them so much. And so she thought, here is someone who knows to love, to be kind, to be loving in a family, to be a good dad, to be a good husband, to be everything I never had. But now that it wasn't all about her, it became intolerable, too painful. And I was very surprised when she said, that's why I filed for divorce, first of all, given what had just preceded. But also because, in fact, that is partly why you think you filed for divorce now, but it is equally why you married him sixteen years ago.
23:37 Esther Perel? We have to take a brief break. Stay with us.
23:45 Speaker 01 Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs. TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.
24:29 Speaker 02 I'm Josh Mucio, host of The Pitch, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. For our sweet season 16, we're giving you more of what you love and less of what you don't.
24:40 Speaker 10 I definitely start to blank out when we're talking about like middleware AI wrappers.
24:45 Speaker 02 Software is out. Actual cool stuff is in. We've got consumer brands. We're building Eight Sleep for daytime. Hardware that helps blind people see.
24:55 Speaker 11 They kept asking for middle finger. Next thing we knew, we had like 10 students running around flipping each other off.
25:00 Speaker 02 We've got deep tech to change the weather.
25:03 Speaker 03 Our big vision is to make it rain and snow on demand.
25:06 Speaker 12 What if you wanted to not make it rain somewhere else? Like one day, we're just like, screw Arizona.
25:13 Speaker 02 And dairy?
25:15 Speaker 04 I never imagined my life journey would be milk.
25:17 Speaker 02 Season 16 of The Pitch is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. This season is presented by Engine.
25:26 Speaker 13 Are you tired of hearing about business, tech, and finance from the bros? We are the Tiger Sisters, a top business podcast with the Vox Media Podcast Network. Tiger Sisters releases every Monday, and we decode money, power, and love. And who doesn't love all those things? We are the internet's Wall Street and Silicon Valley big sisters. Tune in every Monday for late night sister talk meets boardroom strategy. Check out Tiger Sisters on YouTube, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Tiger fam.
25:58 Speaker 09 You know, you completely unfoundedly accused me of all these things, which are complete lie.
26:06 Speaker 09 At home, he said he's taking my side, obviously, because I didn't do anything. But to his family, not to upset this relative who is not mentally ill there.
26:18 Speaker 09 I felt like he betrayed me more than like if he had an affair, basically. Because he knew how hurtful that was. And for me to find this text message, after he's telling me he's not socializing with this person, not talking to him. I find this text message saying, oh, I love you and I want to hang out with you. She's with a kid. We can hang out.
26:40 Speaker 09 So.
26:42 Speaker 09 This guy makes up a story that I named our first family pet. After nickname he had in high school. This guy is like fifty year old man. Somehow I supposed to know that his nickname in high school was something. I named my dog belittling him by doing this. His family believes that I tried to belittle their relative by calling our dog, making up the name, choosing this, like most insane.
27:12 Esther Perel? Can I just, where are you going while all of this is happening now?
27:17 Speaker 08 Uh, I can respond to it, like I can.
27:20 Esther Perel? You're just waiting for your turn?
27:22 Speaker 08 I can certainly speak to it.
27:24 Esther Perel? No, no, no, don't, don't. Because the whole situation has very little to do with the dog and the relative. And the names and all of that, you are mired into the story.
27:48 Esther Perel? It's the same as what I said about your parents. You're mired in the story and you're not seeing the pattern.
27:56 Esther Perel? You're not with me, that means you're against me. It's either or. You cannot say this and do that. Ambiguity is in existent in this situation. Finding ways to appease people so that one can continue to be in relationship cannot feature here. And you're about to throw your entire family, sixteen year relationship, everything you've just highlighted that you value so much into the dumpster because of this?
28:34 Esther Perel? I I don't wanna demean it or devalue it, but it's like, seriously?
28:39 Speaker 09 Because I feel like the justice of being accused something I haven't done, and then, you know, and then he accused me of witchcraft if I send bad vibes to his art project.
28:47 Esther Perel? Where is your sense of humor? Where is your, oh, this is an interesting plot. This is quite a play.
28:57 Speaker 09 It's so insane that it should be like a freaking.
29:01 Esther Perel? And where is your bonding around what families sometimes can create such elaborate schemes and stories?
29:11 Esther Perel? And where is your good deal with your family?
29:13 Speaker 09 I would have all of that if he was with, if I felt he's with me.
29:18 Esther Perel? Here is the thing, if he agreed with you and just said yes, like a good puppy. You would lose much respect for him.
29:29 Esther Perel? Because if he's a good puppy with you, he's gonna be a good puppy with everybody.
29:36 Esther Perel? And you like strong people with personality and integrity. What you're asking him, if he was to do so, would lessen your esteem for him. You'd feel better because he sided with you.
29:53 Speaker 09 Which he did at home.
29:54 Esther Perel? But you won't have much respect for him. Because what you just said is you, I like your decency, I like the way you treat people. I like it for others, but when it's me, I need you to just join me.
30:09 Speaker 09 So you find him expressing his love for the person who caused me so much hurt, you find that decent? Cause I find it pacifying mental illness, it's never gonna get fixed.
30:20 Esther Perel? Think that by putting yourself in the center of the plot.
30:25 Esther Perel? You are not helping him and he can't think. Well, that's for sure. Because he is busy making sure that he doesn't have you on his negative side. And then he can't really look at what's happening with the family. Because you've made it about you.
30:41 Speaker 08 And imagine my
30:42 Esther Perel? They brought me in.
30:43 Speaker 08 My mother is not well and her receiving an email about how she's decided to end the relationship. And being asked not to contact us. My mother is not in a good health.
30:55 Esther Perel? Yeah, but now we're gonna start blaming people for heart attacks. So wait a minute.
31:00 Speaker 08 No, yes, yeah.
31:01 Esther Perel? I'm just saying, your families get along. Your first sentence is about how the mothers love each other. Your next thing is about how great of a dad he is and how much of a sense of family he has. And then the next thing is about how you are going to regulate how he's gonna handle his family. I mean, if the guy is not well and out of his mind, then he needs to be the central figure. But you've made it about you. And now it's about the two of you and he's betraying you because he told you one thing and he went to handle his family another way. Because that's what we do in a collectivist culture.
31:35 Esther Perel? You tell everybody what they wanna hear. I think you're right. And it's an art. If you wanna navigate all these relationships, you have to tell each one that their soup is the best.
31:50 Speaker 08 There's a lot of nuance. There's a lot of, yeah.
31:54 Esther Perel? Oh, my God, that's so true.
31:56 Speaker 08 It's not simple. And especially when it's your own family too. Like, we're talking about someone that's very close to me. That I see as a close mentor. And and someone that I owe as well. Like, most of my family, they they've done everything they could to make sure that I'm okay. So for me, it's not as simple as just speaking my mind, saying what I immediately feel. There's also this currency that goes back and forth.
32:22 Esther Perel? Right, right. But your strength is that you say things just as they come out. His strength is that he can hold it a little bit. Scan the landscape. And then navigate and negotiate the multiple connections.
32:44 Esther Perel? And you can turn to him and say, "You are betraying me, you are weak, you are pandering to everybody and all of that."
32:56 Esther Perel? But you can also look at him and just say, "It's quite amazing how you are able to juggle all these things." And then you can say to him, "What do you think?" Because you become artful at knowing what everybody else thinks and needs and wants. And that usually goes hand in hand with not really knowing what you think anymore because you're busy in everybody else's psyche. And that's where your strength comes in. And now you start to have complementarity of high quality.
33:29 Esther Perel? But this is a missed opportunity. In effect, this becomes a marital crisis. You fight for divorce.
33:37 Speaker 08 And my mom is very heartbroken over all of this. Another thing I could maybe share is that us moving back to the States from Europe, part of what we were excited about is to have the kids close to my family. And so this changed everything. We didn't expect it. It put a lot of tension and pressure, created a lot of problems for us. What she's sharing here is probably just a percentage of things that have come up in the family that have caused issues for us.
34:05 Esther Perel? But they're all about the same thing. Who do you fight for?
34:10 Speaker 08 Yes.
34:11 Esther Perel? Doesn't matter what the situation is. That's why I'm saying, don't get mired in the story, in the details of the plot. The dance is the same one each time. You stand up for them, not me. You're in a triangular competition all the time.
34:27 Esther Perel? The tension that's highlighted between them is that he cannot speak about himself outside of the context in which he sees himself, vis a vis his family. There is something in the way that he talks about the mother, the uncle, the sister, that it's understandable why she experiences this in somewhat of a competitive way in which she needs to carve her place. But on the other hand, it is also so that she really feels that he is there for her only when there's nobody else around, not physically and not internally for him.
35:05 Esther Perel? And that triangle of competition, you learned where and when. Because that usually doesn't start in adulthood. It's a triangulation, right?
35:13 Speaker 09 The only thing I can think of is, um. When my dad grew up, the girl was extremely favorite. You know, like my dad always wanted a dog, never got it. And the second she could talk and said she wants a dog, there was a dog, you know, things like this.
35:26 Esther Perel? Were you your father's favorite?
35:28 Speaker 09 He implemented identical, like, I mean, I could burn the house down.
35:31 Esther Perel? And did your mother tell him that he kept putting you first?
35:34 Speaker 09 No, my mother completely emotionally neglected me all my life and turned all her love to my brother to even it out.
35:40 Esther Perel? Alright, welcome to the family plot.
35:45 Esther Perel? You will recognize that it's the same thing each time. It's always about who comes first. Who gets the affection, who gets the loyalty?
35:57 Speaker 09 Because the way I grew up, that I was competing for my mother's love.
36:01 Esther Perel? And him proving to you that you are number one
36:07 Esther Perel? is the greatest victory you can have.
36:12 Esther Perel? I mean, it's interesting. We've talked about the two of you.
36:17 Speaker 09 Yeah.
36:17 Esther Perel? And in a way, we've talked more about your families than you.
36:22 Esther Perel? So they're very, very present in this. But you're not always clear what their presence is doing to the two of you.
36:33 Esther Perel? When you start talking about how your mom is still affected, you are in effect saying to her, my mom's well-being matters more than yours.
36:48 Speaker 09 And I feel it.
36:48 Esther Perel? It's not off. You don't experience your sense of self as separately from the family that you come from.
36:57 Speaker 08 Yes.
36:58 Esther Perel? And you have tried very hard to create a sense of self that is different from the family that you come from, without realizing how tied you are.
37:09 Speaker 09 Yeah.
37:11 Esther Perel? And so the question is, how do you bring some more freedom and space and independence between the two of you? And more adult connection between the two of you? So that when you ask him things, you don't just ask him things from a family triangular perspective, but you ask him things as a partner. The things you want from him are not from your partner.
37:39 Esther Perel? They are all corrective measures to your childhood.
37:45 Speaker 09 That's so crazy. But I also, with the kids, I don't want to defend myself, but I also never want them to feel the way I felt.
37:53 Esther Perel? I know that. Oh, do I know that. The choice of homeschooling them and the choice of not finding anybody to leave them with over years.
38:06 Esther Perel? When that happens, it's, I'm going to protect them from ever having to feel what I felt and hurt me so badly.
38:18 Esther Perel? And you're doing it probably beautifully.
38:22 Esther Perel? Your kids don't feel lonely, but the two of you are feeling more lonely than is necessary at this moment.
38:30 Speaker 09 Yeah.
38:31 Esther Perel? He can't convince you to go do something with him.
38:36 Esther Perel? Fun, playful, alive.
38:41 Speaker 08 And there's resentment that builds up inside me, because there's a lot that I bottle in as well, like my emotions, I don't express them all the time. I'm more thinking about feelings rather than feeling them in my body. And so when we don't get that time to ourselves, I become more resentful, I start to distance myself. Then if I spend time with my family, I feel like sometimes she might be a little bit jealous. I might go out with my sister and she might tell me like, oh, what did you guys do? And I can already feel that there's some kind of a questioning or attention.
39:15 Speaker 09 And I can tell you why. Because.
39:19 Speaker 09 He has like a different measurement for people of the whole world and his family. And when he's with his sister, she's the most brilliant person he knows. He wants to take pictures with her. He loves her so, you know, all these things he never does with me. He never wants to take photographs with me.
39:38 Esther Perel? Don't do that because you're doing it on the heels of him telling you, I wanna go out with you. I wanna have fun with you. I wanna be playful with you. And you are more hooked to your jealousy and your competition than your desires with him. It's off.
39:59 Speaker 09 Maybe.
40:00 Esther Perel? You understand? He doesn't wanna take pictures with you. You repeat that all the time. And it becomes the story because relationships are our stories. And we have this tendency to confuse our stories with the truth.
40:17 Esther Perel? All of us.
40:18 Speaker 09 But honestly, like when he says his mom is not well, I wanna eat this table right now, how mad it makes me. Because his mom is not well for a very, very long time.
40:25 Esther Perel? Hold on, hold on. Because we were talking about the two of you. So for a minute, we're not gonna bring a family member in here.
40:33 Speaker 09 Okay.
40:34 Esther Perel? We're gonna just meet the couple.
40:36 Speaker 09 Okay.
40:37 Esther Perel? And I wanna make sure that you get the space, you know, you were talking about how you're holding things in.
40:44 Speaker 08 Yes.
40:45 Esther Perel? And how, in effect, you find yourself constantly in a choice between speaking up and saying what you think or feel versus managing her reaction. And the more you manage her reaction, and the more resentful you are becoming. And the more resentful you become, and the more you take distance. And the more she starts to feel jealous. And the more you have to navigate the competing needs of other people. And the less, what did you say so beautifully, I think about my feelings because I can't feel them.
41:22 Speaker 08 Right. And that's detrimental to me, to my well-being.
41:26 Speaker 09 It's funny, he told me the other day, he's like, the second I saw you, I knew I can be like a yes guy. So you find me interesting, basically.
41:35 Esther Perel? I couldn't agree with you more. And you're losing that.
41:39 Speaker 08 I'm losing that.
41:40 Esther Perel? And you're not gonna like yourself and you're not gonna like her.
41:45 Speaker 08 Yeah.
41:46 Esther Perel? And instead of waiting till she agrees with you, bring your initiative, not as a task.
41:55 Speaker 08 Uh huh.
41:56 Esther Perel? As a need.
41:57 Speaker 08 Yes.
41:58 Esther Perel? As a wish.
42:00 Speaker 08 Right, so I should stand my ground, be more assertive.
42:04 Esther Perel? But not in opposition to her. You are assertive at this moment when you are in opposition to her.
42:12 Esther Perel? Sometimes you may just say, let's do this and then be reassuring to her.
42:16 Speaker 08 Sure, absolutely. Yeah, and what I would expect is her being in opposition to me at that point. I tend to be very optimistic and I tend to be like, hey, let's do this, this is gonna be fantastic. It's gonna be good for us, we're gonna experience some joy.
42:32 Esther Perel? Right.
42:33 Speaker 08 And she might be like, no, you might only wanna do this for selfish reasons or like you're making these types of friends because it serves you in a particular way. And so that's why she's not interested and she doesn't join that call to like do something like different. She won't join me in in the experience.
42:52 Esther Perel? And then what happens?
42:54 Speaker 08 That can escalate into an argument. It could turn into something quite big where she starts bringing up things from the past that I haven't done well. And then at that point, I'm just like, alright, so. So that's part of the reason why I'm very careful about what we choose to do. Like the holiday party is an example, like I knew that maybe she wasn't gonna be like a hundred percent thinking this is gonna be the funnest thing in the world. But I did know that at the end of it, she's gonna be very glad and happy that she got to do it. But there was some work.
43:23 Esther Perel? How did you do it? How did you manage to have her join you?
43:27 Speaker 03 Get me out of here.
43:28 Esther Perel? Yes. I like the humor with which you, if you could have some of that in your house, would go longer.
43:35 Speaker 08 The humor, humor is important. Getting her to really imagine herself being next to me and how important it was for me to have her there. I kept telling her, it's gonna be great for you to come. I want everyone to meet you.
43:48 Esther Perel? Lovely.
43:49 Speaker 08 And she was in and out of it. Like she was like, no, I'm not going, yes, I'm going. There was a dance.
43:54 Esther Perel? She gives you a run for your money. You're good at this. My god. This is to hone your chops. Every time she resists, you tell her, I so love how you're making me stand up for myself. How you're strengthening my will.
44:15 Esther Perel? In the example of the holiday party, they highlight once more what I called earlier in the session, the high-quality complementarity between them. On some level, not consciously at all, he chose her because she would help him stand up for himself. She would actually help him say what he needs, say what he wants, which she's very good at, including when he wants her to come with him to the party. And on the other side, she chose him with a sense that he could bring her the warmth of family that she never had and the love that he could share with them.
44:58 Esther Perel? She imagined he could also bestow upon her. And that complementarity by which one person brings connection and the other person brings individuation is a very powerful pool of attraction between two people.
45:18 Esther Perel? We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.
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46:06 Speaker 08 One other small thing that I might add here. So for New Year's, we went out of the city, we went upstate.
46:11 Speaker 09 At the best time of my life.
46:12 Speaker 08 Those are the things she loves to do the most. Where there's the fewest amount of people, where we're not in public.
46:16 Esther Perel? Okay, do both.
46:17 Speaker 09 But this is what I was gonna tell her. While I tend to now go more into the serenity of nature, like we were making fires in this upstate property. There was absolutely nothing else to do. We were making the fires with the kids. At night, we were making puzzles. There was no technology doing. My husband's idea of good time. Take the kids, grab them, and eat junk food and watch movie on Times Square, you know? For me, that's like, that's a big screen. You take them from screen they looked at home, from screen on TV. And then I was like, well, so since you were already up there, why didn't you take them to Central Park? You know, because I like present activities. I like much more pure and healthier in every single way.
47:00 Speaker 09 Versus his idea, the things he wants to do. Of course, I like to see movies here and there, but like, so many times, he offers ideas and he doesn't offer help with the logistic. Like, how are we gonna do it then? So if we're gonna do this, are you gonna help me to?
47:14 Esther Perel? Okay. May I?
47:17 Speaker 09 Yes.
47:20 Esther Perel? He comes with an idea. You say, what should we do to make it happen?
47:25 Speaker 09 Instead of even vocalizing it.
47:27 Esther Perel? You are in the criticism and into the resentment before anything. And if they wanna schlep together to Times Square, your kids are being homeschooled. It's not like they're gonna get contaminated.
47:42 Esther Perel? You care about certain things, and it's very important, and you value them. But it doesn't have to be purist in order for it to stand. It will stand. So when he comes with an idea, you're not responding to the idea. You're responding to your abandonment of this man. The response is instantly, I'm all alone with everything. It's a response from your childhood.
48:15 Esther Perel? Me with the kids is like me with my brother.
48:18 Speaker 08 Um hum.
48:19 Esther Perel? And I have to attend to everything. And you fall in the trap every time.
48:26 Esther Perel? You you see?
48:28 Speaker 08 What can I do?
48:29 Esther Perel? Well, you tell me. You're smart.
48:31 Speaker 08 It's a pattern. It's a pattern.
48:32 Esther Perel? You know, don't play helpless. Cause you take on the role of the victim in the house. I'm so good. I'm so kind. I care about everyone.
48:42 Speaker 08 I'm always happy to be wrong and maybe that's part of it too.
48:45 Esther Perel? No, but you come home with an idea. And she goes into the but but who's gonna do this and who's gonna do that and.
48:52 Speaker 08 Um hum.
48:53 Esther Perel? What do you do?
48:54 Speaker 08 Sometimes it does upset me to the point where, you know, we argue about it. Makes me feel like I hate that I have to get to this level where we have to discuss it in this manner.
49:04 Esther Perel? Don't.
49:07 Esther Perel? You see, the thing is that you respond as if she's the one leading you.
49:12 Speaker 08 Um hum. I have to lead more.
49:14 Esther Perel? Yes.
49:15 Speaker 08 Yeah. Some ideas are easier to implement than others. Sometimes I tell her, hey, why don't you go with your friends? Cause I see it does her a lot of good as well to be doing things on her own.
49:26 Esther Perel? Of course.
49:27 Speaker 08 So I'm like, why don't you go with your friends and just take a trip? And that's something I do bring up pretty every now and then. So it's also those types of ideas.
49:37 Speaker 09 Never. He's never been with the kids and a dog alone. I took the kids to Europe. I had all of them for six weeks. He goes on business trip seven days at the time.
49:46 Esther Perel? So why don't you?
49:49 Speaker 08 She has the opportunity sometimes.
49:51 Esther Perel? We all know that. But why don't you is not about you.
49:55 Speaker 09 Because you're gonna think I'm crazy even more, but.
49:57 Esther Perel? No, I have not had that thought one.
50:00 Speaker 09 Because I don't think he takes care of all of them as well as I would.
50:03 Esther Perel? I have not had that thought.
50:07 Esther Perel? And I want you to not necessarily
50:10 Speaker 09 Okay.
50:11 Esther Perel? Take that to her.
50:13 Speaker 09 Okay.
50:13 Esther Perel? So what did you say? Because I don't think he takes care of them as well as I do.
50:17 Speaker 09 Yeah.
50:18 Esther Perel? Yeah.
50:18 Speaker 09 And I'm not there.
50:19 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
50:19 Speaker 09 And I guess at the end, it goes back to my childhood where the fraction of
50:27 Speaker 09 me leaving them and possibly them having like a lower quality of everything. In a way, you know, I mean, like, they're not gonna go to park for as long, they're not gonna maybe. You know, now, as I'm saying it, it sounds so insane, honestly.
50:42 Esther Perel? It's not insane, it's raw, it's fragile, it's traumatic.
50:49 Speaker 09 Yeah, I feel like I can't meet them.
50:50 Esther Perel? Right, but not because of him.
50:53 Speaker 09 And it's actually not because of him.
50:55 Esther Perel? Okay, we need to establish that once, you need to establish that. It's not because of him. There is a level, I called it rigidity. I will control this to the nth degree. To make sure that there is not an ounce of what I felt in my childhood that my kids will feel.
51:16 Speaker 09 Yeah. But what is that? Jesus Christ. How did I took it to that level? It's almost like unreasonable, you know what I mean?
51:27 Esther Perel? It's not almost.
51:30 Esther Perel? But it's understandable.
51:33 Esther Perel? There's something so not grounded in reality, but grounded in trauma.
51:41 Esther Perel? Grounded in early deprivation.
51:46 Esther Perel? Where it becomes a dogma, to the point where him one minute with the kids alone, after I've described how much he's a fantastic father, is inconceivable to me, and it's not about him.
52:00 Speaker 09 A hundred percent agree.
52:02 Speaker 08 But what I would love is opportunities for me to also grow as a father, to be alone with my kids. For me to like, do things my way, not just the way she wants them.
52:16 Esther Perel? If you are able to vacate the space and let him take over.
52:26 Esther Perel? It's not just to see if he's capable and if he can do it his way or as well as you. Because you're not the boss of the of the criteriums here of what is good parenting. But the most important reason for you to do this is that if you can allow him and you can begin to trust him, you will finally take care of the original wound, that you're not all alone with everything on your shoulders.
53:04 Speaker 09 No, I agree. I have a hundred percent.
53:05 Esther Perel? You understand, it's not just to see if he's capable. It actually.
53:10 Speaker 09 It doesn't even matter if he's, I mean, we all know he's capable, more than capable.
53:13 Esther Perel? Okay. Can you say that to him?
53:16 Speaker 09 I know you're capable of doing, even if you do it a little bit differently.
53:20 Speaker 08 I know you're very particular, but yeah, I can.
53:23 Speaker 09 You, I know nobody's gonna be dead when I come back.
53:26 Speaker 08 There's things that I could do at home, but what I also need is like the feeling good and that you trust me and that we're like on this mutual mission.
53:35 Esther Perel? So when she doesn't trust you, this may help you.
53:42 Esther Perel? It's not because she doesn't think you're not capable.
53:46 Esther Perel? When she doesn't trust you, it's because she is holding on tooth and nail to that voice inside of her that says, there's nobody there for you.
53:59 Esther Perel? And you have to do it all alone. She's dying to let go of that voice, but she also has built an entire life around that voice.
54:10 Esther Perel? And so she is afraid that if she loosens it a little bit, the whole thing can dissolve on the spot. It's irrational. It's not real, but the fear is very real.
54:26 Speaker 09 And then I'm a bad parent also.
54:29 Esther Perel? Because you're trying to be the parent that your mother never was.
54:32 Speaker 09 Yeah.
54:32 Esther Perel? You know, it's all that theme. So when you are talking to her and she doesn't trust you, don't start saying I'm capable.
54:43 Esther Perel? Just tell her you're not alone.
54:46 Speaker 08 That's a great tip. I love that.
54:48 Esther Perel? You understand? It's about talking to that part of her that is afraid to loosen this thing even a millimeter. Because her entire coping, survival strategy is organized around this.
55:07 Esther Perel? This idea that if you, what was it, don't take them the same amount of time in the park. Is gonna make her be a bad mother. It's intense, it's extreme, it's debilitating. And it's not allowing her to go away with her friends, to go see a movie, to go with you to a party. She's drying up in her own well.
55:30 Esther Perel? And when you think she's controlling, which of course she is, because control is the mechanism with which she tries to protect this identity, in your head, just think fear. Fear is not the word, terror.
55:49 Esther Perel? Tell me what has been your experience hearing all of this?
55:55 Speaker 09 Well, absolutely mind blowing, first of all. I can't believe it. It sounds so true to me. It rings like with every fiber of my body. I think that's what it is. You know, that's where it all comes from. So I'm shocked that I didn't see it myself, where it comes from. I'm shocked I didn't see how rigid that was. But I almost feel like I have a green card now.
56:19 Speaker 09 Like I'm not a bad mom if I do that, you know.
56:24 Speaker 08 Or that you have like now.
56:26 Speaker 09 Like I have a confirmation.
56:27 Speaker 08 Or confirmation. That you can take care of yourself too.
56:32 Speaker 09 Bad mom.
56:34 Speaker 08 Of course.
56:35 Speaker 09 It's so embarrassing. Makes me feel like I'm not intelligent person, you know.
56:41 Speaker 08 No.
56:41 Speaker 09 Like how could I not see that, put it together myself.
56:46 Esther Perel? It's always easier to see it in others. And it's not that you didn't see it, is that a part of you that made that vow a long time ago is organized around you not seeing it, otherwise you're gonna go off for a weekend.
57:07 Esther Perel? And it has tried to convince you your entire life that one evening away is going to affect their entire future.
57:17 Speaker 09 Yeah.
57:18 Esther Perel? And it is, first of all, inaccurate. Second of all, you may end up proving your mother wrong, but you may not do right by your kids.
57:31 Speaker 09 And my marriage, probably.
57:32 Esther Perel? Your marriage, that's a given.
57:35 Speaker 09 Yeah.
57:35 Esther Perel? That is not a maybe.
57:38 Esther Perel? Here's the irony, this is the first time in the history of humankind that the survival of the family depends on the happiness of the couple. On the long list of what your kids need, attending to your relationship is huge. Because it actually will give them the family that you so much wanted them to have.
58:01 Speaker 09 It's the most important thing.
58:08 Esther Perel? This is actually not where the session ended. They had planned to go all together with the family because the children actually had accompanied them and were waiting the entire time in another room. And the family had decided to go for lunch in the neighborhood where she used to work.
58:28 Esther Perel? And the suggestion was that after lunch, Dad and the kids would do their thing in town, picking up on him being alone with the children in the city. But for her to go and do something of her own, and especially to walk around in the old neighborhood where she used to work before she was married, when she still felt free and playful and partied a lot and had a very different connection of who she was then. What happened to them was actually quite interesting and I invite you to listen to the follow up on my subscription on Apple Podcasts, where I put all the follow ups of many of the sessions that we do.
59:11 Esther Perel? But in listening to this session right now as I arrive at the end, it's clear that I did a lot of work with her and less with him. I didn't focus on her because the issue was bigger on her side. I focused on her because I tend to go where I think there is greater flexibility and nimbleness for change. And I felt it. Whenever I would say something, I knew that she was loosening the knots that were tying her together. And so if she could shift, he would follow. This is in case you want to know a little bit about what goes in the mind of this particular couple's therapist.
1:00:04 Speaker 00 Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin? Are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.
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