El Cid (Radio Edit)

Greg Jenner is joined in medieval Spain by historian Professor Nora Berend and comedian Toussaint Douglass to learn about the colourful life and afterlife of the warrior known as El Cid. El Cid – real name Rodrigo Díaz – was a mercenary in eleventh-century Spain who fought for both Christian kings and Muslim rulers before setting himself up as ruler of Valencia. This episode explores his dramatic life in the period before religious divisions were key on the Iberian Peninsula, and an ambitious warrior might fight for whoever would pay him. It then traces the legend that grew up around him after his death, taking in the medieval romances written about El Cid, the surprising role his bones played in the Napoleonic wars, his appropriation by General Franco after the Spanish Civil War, and even the classic Hollywood film starring Charlton Heston and Sophia Loren. This is a radio edit of the original podcast episode. For the full-length version, please look further back in the feed. Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Adam Simcox Written by: Adam Simcox, Dr Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Dr Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Dr Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Gill Huggett Senior Producer: Dr Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: Philip Sellars

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Greg Jenner?

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• 1:09Greg Jenner?

  Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name's Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are gathering a band of mercenaries and galloping back to 11th century Spain to learn about legendary warrior and all-around lad El Cid. And to join our quest, we have two very special comrades in arms. In history corner, she's professor of European history at the University of Cambridge, where she specializes in medieval social and religious history. She's the author of the fascinating book El Cid: The Life and Afterlife of a Medieval Mercenary. It's Professor Nora Berend. Welcome, Nora.

• 1:44Speaker 04

  Thank you. I'm thrilled to be here. And can someone take good care of my horse while I'm here?

• 1:49Greg Jenner?

  Pop it in the stables. No worries. Annie Comedy Corner. Annie Comedy Corner. He's an award-winning stand-up and comedy writer. You might have seen him on Richard Osman's House of Games, comedians giving lectures, Outsiders, Late Night Mash. Maybe you've seen his recent smash hit stand-up show, Accessible Pigeon Material. Is there any other kind? And you'll remember him from our past episodes on Frederick Douglass and the causes of the British Civil Wars. It's Toussaint Douglas. Welcome back, Toussaint.

• 2:15Speaker 05

  Thanks for having me, Greg. Absolute pleasure to be here. This is without doubt my favourite podcast on the BBC about history.

• 2:22Greg Jenner?

  Thank you. The caveat started rolling in. Last time out, Toussaint, we were on home turf with the British Civil Wars. I know you're quite good on politics and history.

• 2:33Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:34Greg Jenner?

  So how comfortable are you with medieval Spain?

• 2:37Speaker 05

  I'm going to be completely honest with you, Greg. Spanish historical figures, not my forte. All right, I know Crist, we all know Crist, right? You don't even have to say his last name. We all know Chris, who I'm talking about, Akabusi, Chris Akabusi. 1992 Olympics, bronze medalist, bronze meter. No, I'm obviously talking about Christopher Columbus. Captain of Aragon, I know them. And then it gets quite sketchy. We're on to Don Quixote.

• 2:59Greg Jenner?

  Oh, that's quite good.

• 3:00Speaker 05

  Don Juan, you know, I'm not even sure if these people are actually real people, but I know them.

• 3:06Greg Jenner?

  Yeah, the last two are fictional, but that's fine.

• 3:08Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 3:09Greg Jenner?

  So the name El Cid, nothing's going off in your brain?

• 3:11Speaker 05

  I mean, first off, let's just, it's a great name, right?

• 3:14Greg Jenner?

  Yeah.

• 3:14Speaker 05

  It sounds like the name of like a lead singer of like a Spanish punk band, do you know what I mean?

• 3:18Greg Jenner?

  Yes.

• 3:18Speaker 05

  And also a cleaning product, you know, El Cid and the dirt is quitado, you know? That's what's ringing for me when you say El Cid, but no, I don't know who he is.

• 3:29Greg Jenner?

  Okay, well, you know, that's fine, that's all good. So, what do you know?

• 3:38Greg Jenner?

  This is the So What Do You Know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, will know about today's subject. And if you're tuning in from Spain, you will probably be familiar with El Cid. For everyone else, I reckon you're half remembering A Dead Guy on a Horse from the classic 1961 movie El Cid starring Charlton Heston and Sophia Loren. She did not play the horse, just checking. And listener, actually, if you're in the UK, you can watch the El Cid movie on BBC iPlayer. It's there right now and it's there for a while. And of course, in that movie, El Cid is portrayed as a Christian hero who fights Muslim invaders. If you're a gamer, like me a bit, you will know El Cid from the Crusader Kings games and the Total War games, my absolute faves. But who was the man behind the myth? Does his real life live up to legend? And can a corpse really lead an army?

• 4:23Greg Jenner?

  Let's find out. Okey dokey. Nora, we're calling this guy El Cid. First name El, last name Cid?

• 4:30Speaker 04

  I'm afraid not. Al is the Castilian vernacular the. And Sid comes from the Arabic. It's a distorted Arabic term from Said, Lord. It used to be thought that he was called Mi'osid, my lord, by his Muslim subjects, and that it was a unique honorific. This has now been very much questioned because the first source that calls him that is later, after he died. He was called Campeador, battler, in his lifetime. And so it may well be that even Sid, but certainly Al Sid, the Lord, is just kind of part of the later legend already.

• 5:09Greg Jenner?

  Do we have a real name for him, though? What's our?

• 5:12Speaker 04

  Rodrigo. Rodrigo Diaz or Rui Diaz. So at the time Rodrigo and Rui were sort of the same name.

• 5:18Greg Jenner?

  Is Diaz a surname or is it a middle name?

• 5:20Speaker 04

  So Diaz is basically, they used patronymics. So from your father's name, you had this. So his father was Diego, so he was Diaz.

• 5:29Greg Jenner?

  Okay, so Rodrigo Diaz, not really Al Sid until later on. So we'll call him Rodrigo. We'll call him Rodrigo. That's the guy. Okay, we've done a full episode already, listeners, on Al-Andalus, which you can go listen to in the back catalogue. It's lots of fun. But can we have a quick refresher? What sort of world is Rodrigo Diaz born into?

• 5:49Speaker 04

  It was a time of opportunity and political upheaval. We don't really know exactly when he was born, but it's kind of middle of the 11th century. So to go back a little bit, in the early 8th century, an Arab-led Berber conquest arrived in the Iberian Peninsula. And in the wake of that, Al-Andalus, a Muslim society, developed. And this Al-Andalus was the main power on the Iberian Peninsula for quite a long time, until 1031, when the last Caliph, Hisham III, was overthrown.

• 6:24Greg Jenner?

  You've mentioned the Arabs and the Berbers there. Could you explain the differences between them?

• 6:29Speaker 04

  The Arabs converted to Islam were the first followers of Muhammad. The Berbers of North Africa were relatively recently converted or not yet quite converted to Islam. At this point, so the leadership consisted of the Arabs, but a lot of the army invading the peninsula were Berbers from North Africa. And then Al-Andalus fragmented into a lot of what are called Taifa principalities. There were thirty-three of them initially.

• 6:56Greg Jenner?

  Wow, so one kingdom turned into thirty-three.

• 6:58Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 6:59Greg Jenner?

  That's a nightmare.

• 7:00Speaker 04

  So huge change. And it also meant that the northern Christian kingdoms, which were slowly emerging, sort of after the early eighth century, by the eleventh century, there was Leon, Castile, and Aragon, who were the main players on the Christian side. They now had the upper hand, so these Christians from the north could start raiding into the south.

• 7:25Greg Jenner?

  So Toussaint, what do you think of Pequeno Rodrigo's childhood? What do you imagine his childhood was like? What class do you think he's born into? And what do you think his early days are?

• 7:34Speaker 05

  He ended up as my lord, the lord, so I'm guess there's got to be some sort of lordiness involved in his childhood.

• 7:42Greg Jenner?

  Is that a technical term?

• 7:44Speaker 05

  Yeah, I'm from Louisville, I have no idea. I think he wasn't a commoner, but he was a fighter, right? Actually, he can't have been that high up because they didn't get their hands dirty. So I'm thinking, he was middle class, but he would secretly shop at Lidl's. In terms of nobility, that's kind of where he was back then. I don't know, I have no idea.

• 8:05Greg Jenner?

  I think that's a really good guess. I think that's a good summary, Nora.

• 8:08Speaker 04

  We know for his father, who was Diego Alena, who was definitely from the aristocracy, and one source from the twelfth century mentions that his mother was also from the aristocracy, but there are debates about who exactly she was. We know that he appeared at the court of the then Infante Sancho, so Prince, who later on became Sancho the Second. So in the early 1060s, he appears as a warrior, and when Sancho becomes king, 1065, Rodrigo is kind of an established warrior, and he leads the king's retinue.

• 8:43Greg Jenner?

  Okay. You said Sancho the Second, he's the king of Leon, Castile. Is that a combination of two kingdoms that have been smushed together?

• 8:50Speaker 04

  Yes, exactly. So Spanish kingdoms at this time are joined, then separated, then joined again, so yeah.

• 8:59Speaker 05

  Quite troubled relationship, yeah.

• 9:02Speaker 04

  So Fernando I, who was king of León Castil, left his realm divided between his three sons when he died in 1065.

• 9:12Greg Jenner?

  Oh, he did a king layer.

• 9:13Speaker 04

  So, yes.

• 9:13Speaker 05

  Absolute rookie, what he did.

• 9:16Speaker 04

  So Sancho II, Alfonso VI, and García II. And they immediately started fighting it out. So first, Alfonso and Sancho together defeated and exiled García. And then Sancho turned against Alfonso and defeated and exiled him. And then he started besieging a fortress of his sister Uraca.

• 9:37Greg Jenner?

  His sister as well.

• 9:38Speaker 04

  And met a very sticky end because apparently an assassin stuck a spear in his back.

• 9:46Greg Jenner?

  Oh.

• 9:47Speaker 04

  That allowed Alfonso to return and claim the throne.

• 9:51Speaker 05

  I'm sorry, but can you still be called an assassin if you kill them with a spear? That's hardly subtle, is it?

• 9:58Greg Jenner?

  Who's the king now? I've lost, I've lost track of who.

• 10:01Speaker 04

  Alfonso VI.

• 10:02Greg Jenner?

  Thank you. Alfonso VI is now king.

• 10:04Speaker 04

  He reunites León Castil.

• 10:05Greg Jenner?

  Okay, so he brings the kingdoms back together. Great. Toussaint, how do you think Rodrigo Diaz navigated this, this new court politics now that, you know, the siblings have fought it out? What do you reckon he does?

• 10:17Speaker 05

  I mean, you've got to get straight in there with the new king, right? That's, that's got to be your go to move, right? I didn't even like Sancho II. You were always my favorite, Alfonso. Come on, Alfonso VI, let's go.

• 10:30Greg Jenner?

  Okay, you're a smooth talker. Okay, I can, I can see that. Nora, was Rodrigo, you know, was he smooth and loyal to the new king? Did he, you know, fair with a friend or absolutely ride or die with the new king?

• 10:42Speaker 04

  Well, loyalty was definitely not Rodrigo's strong suit. So you're quite right about sort of immediately wanting to kind of get on the good side of, of the king. So, yeah, he basically switched to Alfonso's court and he became one of Alfonso's warriors. Eventually, he fell out with Alfonso. So Alfonso was the protector of one of these Muslim Typho kingdoms, Toledo.

• 11:08Speaker 04

  But when there was a Muslim attack, a plundering attack against Castile, Rodrigo retaliated by raiding Toledo. So obviously that put Alfonso in a very nasty spot because one of his own warriors was raiding an area he was supposed to be protecting.

• 11:26Greg Jenner?

  Oh, right.

• 11:27Speaker 04

  So Alfonso ended up exiling Rodrigo.

• 11:30Greg Jenner?

  Right.

• 11:31Speaker 05

  It feels like he's a guy, he doesn't like having a boss. It feels like he wants to work for himself. You know what I mean? He feels like he's more suited to kind of like being self-employed.

• 11:41Greg Jenner?

  Freelance, if you will.

• 11:43Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. Someone who really on the battlefield put the lance into freelance.

• 11:47Greg Jenner?

  Exactly. The tree is the back, yeah. What we haven't mentioned, actually, he's married. So who's the, who's Mrs. Rodrigo?

• 11:55Speaker 04

  She's Jimena. They married around 1074. She is also from an aristocratic family, related in fact to King Alfonso VI. And when Rodrigo goes into exile, she takes their children back to her family, probably. They have three children, two daughters, Cristina and Maria, and probably a son, Diego, although he's only mentioned in a later source.

• 12:22Greg Jenner?

  What do you think wifeless, childless Rodrigo gets up to in his exile?

• 12:26Speaker 05

  I think he's getting a lot of good sleep. I think that's for sure. He's getting his eight hours in.

• 12:30Greg Jenner?

  Spoken like a new dad, yeah?

• 12:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, getting beauty sleep. And I'm a bit jealous, actually, of this Rodrigo guy.

• 12:36Greg Jenner?

  Yes, understandable. You say getting a lot of sleep. He's a mercenary commander, Nora.

• 12:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm not so sure he's getting lots of sleep, actually. And he first tried to go to the court of the Count of Barcelona, who was not interested in him. So he ends up going to one of these Muslim Taifa kingdoms, Zaragoza.

• 12:57Greg Jenner?

  He's working for Islamic rulers and armies. Is this controversial and rare, or is this like just part of the course?

• 13:05Speaker 04

  It's very much part of the course.

• 13:07Greg Jenner?

  Really?

• 13:07Speaker 04

  It was not at all unusual at the time. And in fact, Christian kings had more of a chance dying by the hands of other Christians, including their relatives, than dying fighting Muslims. And usually, in these wars, Christian-Muslim alliances fought against other Christian-Muslim alliances. So it's quite a misnomer to sort of see this as some kind of Christian war against Muslims. The rhetoric of Christian war basically coexisted with this kind of much more pragmatic and indiscriminate fighting in reality.

• 13:42Speaker 05

  He's not like this religious zealot kind of warrior. He's just like a member of the gig economy, basically.

• 13:49Greg Jenner?

  But in 1086, Rodrigo went back to Team Alfonso. Did they kiss and make up? Was this, you know, was this a sort of lovely reunion?

• 13:55Speaker 04

  It's unclear whether he initiated this return or the king.

• 14:00Greg Jenner?

  Right.

• 14:00Speaker 04

  Because the background was basically a huge shock that was produced by the actions of Alfonso VI. Up until then, kings were collecting tribute. The Muslims got used to that. But Alfonso then decided to send the Typho ruler of Toledo to Valencia, so he just removed him, gave him another kingdom, and annexed Toledo in 1085.

• 14:21Greg Jenner?

  Wow.

• 14:22Speaker 04

  And that was symbolically significant because it used to be the capital before the Arab Berber conquest. So this was very important symbolically, but it sent a kind of a wave of panic through the Typho rulers, who then called the Moroccan Almoravids in to help them. So the Almoravids invaded.

• 14:41Greg Jenner?

  From Morocco.

• 14:43Speaker 04

  From Morocco, by the sea, overseas, and immediately defeated Alfonso, who was now absolutely desperate for warriors. But in 1089, so indeed, very quickly, the king and Rodrigo fell out again. This time, the Almoravids, together with Typho armies, were besieging Alado. And Rodrigo seems to have found a very lame excuse for not showing up. And the king, obviously, was not pleased by this. He had Rodrigo's family imprisoned, he confiscated all his lands, and he... Exiled him again. So with his retinue, some of his men deserted him, but enough were

• 15:24Speaker 04

  left to kind of carry out raids for himself and to reward his followers. So basically, he's now just trying to build up a power base for himself.

• 15:34Greg Jenner?

  So he's a startup.

• 15:34Speaker 04

  Entrepreneur.

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• 17:01Greg Jenner?

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• 17:35Speaker 04

  And then he starts really focusing on Valencia and collecting tribute for himself from there, continues to fight against Muslims and Christians fairly indiscriminately. Believe it or not, he and King Alfonso try to cooperate again. And this time fall out because Rodrigo places his camp in front of the kings. Rodrigo claims that this is because he's trying to protect the king, but the king sees it as absolute arrogance. They have various angry exchanges and confrontations to the point where Alfonso wants to have Rodrigo captured, but Rodrigo at that point escapes.

• 18:17Greg Jenner?

  What's next for Rodrigo? Like, you know, he can't just keep this up, can he? He can't just keep allying and falling out with people.

• 18:23Speaker 04

  Well, he actually has his big break at this point.

• 18:26Greg Jenner?

  Oh, right.

• 18:27Speaker 04

  So as the Almoravids are conquering some of the lands of the Iberian Peninsula, there's an uprising in Valencia. And this ruler, Alcader, who had been installed by Alfonso VI as his protege, who is very, very unpopular, is now overthrown, captured and executed. And the city's judge, Ibn Jahaf, takes power.

• 18:50Greg Jenner?

  Okay. And where is Valencia in the geography of Spain? Is it West Spain?

• 18:53Speaker 04

  Well, it's on the eastern coast and it was quite far down in Muslim lands at this point.

• 18:59Greg Jenner?

  Okay, on the eastern coast. Okay, thank you. Rodrigo has seized this city. He seized Valencia.

• 19:04Speaker 04

  Well, so, I mean, he had been collecting tribute from there. And so he has men who were then either captured during this rebellion or had to flee. And it's at this point that Rodrigo decides to besiege the city.

• 19:18Greg Jenner?

  Right.

• 19:18Speaker 04

  So the siege means surrounding the city, starving it, raiding the surrounding countryside. And Ibn Jahaf tries to get help from the Almoravids, who do send an army, but Torrential rains and Rodrigo cutting the dams of the river Turia floods the area between the Almoravids and Rodrigo's army. So Rodrigo basically foils this plan to get outside help. And in the end, in 1094, Valencia surrenders and Rodrigo becomes its ruler now. So he officially calls himself and is called by his subjects princeps, prince, which is a kind of term for... Rulers who are not kings.

• 20:01Greg Jenner?

  So he's Prince Rodrigo.

• 20:03Speaker 05

  Okay, yeah, he's gone up.

• 20:04Greg Jenner?

  It's kind of worked out for him.

• 20:05Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 20:06Speaker 04

  Actually, he died.

• 20:07Greg Jenner?

  Ah.

• 20:08Speaker 04

  He died in ten.

• 20:08Greg Jenner?

  A classic move.

• 20:09Speaker 04

  Ten ninety-nine of natural causes. And he did not leave a male heir, so no son who could have.

• 20:17Greg Jenner?

  Oh, so the son in the source that you talked about, Diego's son, he would have died. Okay, he died. And his daughters would inherit?

• 20:23Speaker 04

  So his widow, Jimena, inherited. His daughters were married, they were married. But it was Jimena who then ruled Valencia for three years. But then the Almoravids started to besiege Valencia and Jimena asked Alfonso VI for help.

• 20:41Speaker 04

  So at this point, yeah, it's difficult to hold the city against this army. And Alfonso does arrive with an army.

• 20:48Greg Jenner?

  He does?

• 20:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, he does.

• 20:49Greg Jenner?

  Oh, fair play, Alfonso.

• 20:51Speaker 04

  He doesn't seem to bear grudges, yes.

• 20:54Greg Jenner?

  He had every reason to be like, nope.

• 20:57Speaker 04

  I mean, also, of course, remember, she was a kinswoman of him and of his.

• 21:02Greg Jenner?

  I see.

• 21:03Speaker 04

  And of course, Rodrigo was already dead. But so, yeah, he arrives with an army, lifts the siege, but he cannot maintain the defense of Valencia so far away from his own land. So basically, the city is evacuated. Everybody with their possessions go north to Castile. Alfonso has the city burned, so not to leave it intact for the Almoravids. And Jimena also takes Rodrigo's remains and has him reburied in a monastery called San Pedro de Cardenya.

• 21:36Greg Jenner?

  Don't get up yet, though, Tucson, we're not done yet because we're going to now talk about the kind of the afterlife of Rodrigo, or rather, El Cid, this whole other guy that he becomes. Is it a religious revival?

• 21:48Speaker 04

  A series of people and reasons, actually. There is this kind of religious rhetoric, which is indeed important. And in the 12th, 13th centuries especially, the war that was still a much messier war on the ground, but it was increasingly accompanied by a kind of ecclesiastical rhetoric which presented. Zanted it at least as sort of Christian war against Muslims. It wasn't quite matching realities, but you have that very strong rhetoric of the restoration of Christian lands. Two more reasons really. One was the creation of a prestigious past for Castile, because Castile by the 13th century became the most important Christian kingdom. But at the start, it didn't have a particularly illustrious beginning.

• 22:32Speaker 04

  So now they're looking for Castilian heroes. So here is El cid. And then finally, the monastery. The monastery of San Pedro de Cardenya, where he's buried. The monks are fantastic producers of all kinds of stories and tales and really foster, yes, really foster his cult. So they kind of create these fictional links between the live Rodriguez, if he had already sort of chosen the monastery in all kinds of ways. And they of course want to attract donations and also have this very prestigious patron. And they actually try to have him canonized as a saint eventually.

• 23:10Greg Jenner?

  Oh, really? And Toussaint, in one medieval text, El cid's death was famously rewritten. Do you know what it says?

• 23:18Speaker 05

  Is it that he rides his horse even though he's dead?

• 23:22Greg Jenner?

  Yep, that's right.

• 23:23Speaker 05

  He almost rides his horse.

• 23:24Greg Jenner?

  Which sounds weird.

• 23:26Speaker 05

  Inspired his men to victory, was it?

• 23:29Speaker 04

  Well, yes, although it's kind of even more intriguing than that, because according to the story, which was written in the 13th century and then incorporated into the official court chronicles of the Castilian kings.

• 23:41Speaker 05

  The horse was also dead.

• 23:42Speaker 04

  No, although the horse could also be an important player later on. But according to this, Saint Peter-

• 23:49Speaker 05

  Comes a king as well. I'm gonna get on this, actually. I'm gonna get on this gig economy. I'm not making way enough money as a horse. I'm gonna be a ruler, actually. I've changed my mind.

• 24:00Speaker 04

  So Saint Peter appears to Rodrigo for telling his death and the victory after death.

• 24:08Greg Jenner?

  Wow. Good news, bad news.

• 24:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly. Which one do you want first? And Rodrigo prepares for this. For seven days, he doesn't eat, he just drinks a bit of water mixed with myrrh and balsam. So he basically is embalming himself.

• 24:25Greg Jenner?

  Wow.

• 24:26Speaker 04

  While he's still alive. So indeed, he dies. A Muslim army led by Bukhar attacks. For nine days, they fight against them. And of course, people don't know what's going on. Rodrigo doesn't come, doesn't appear. And then after that, they put him in his armor, strap him on his horse, fix his sword in his hand, and together with the army, he sort of charges out, helped by no other than Saint James the Apostle.

• 24:54Greg Jenner?

  Right.

• 24:55Speaker 04

  Along with the heavenly host. So I think you cannot do better than that. And of course, they defeat the Muslim army. The text also then deprives the Muslims of the victory of taking, of retaking Valencia. Because according to this, Rodrigo wanted to be buried at San Pedro de Cardenya. So immediately after he died, so after this victory, they take the corpse to be buried. And everybody wants to participate. So the whole town is empty, because all the inhabitants go to bury him in San Pedro. So the Muslims can take the city.

• 25:28Greg Jenner?

  So it's not an evacuation. It's just all gone to the funeral.

• 25:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly.

• 25:32Speaker 05

  A different take on an open casket funeral, isn't it?

• 25:36Speaker 04

  Just one line about the horse, because according to the same text, the horse is then taken very good care of at the monastery. So he has this very long, nice life, and they make sure that there are lots of fillies, so his line is perpetuated.

• 25:52Speaker 05

  I'm sorry. What is this text? And what was the person who wrote that text smoking? Because this is...

• 25:59Speaker 04

  You want some of that. But he was a monk, I'm afraid.

• 26:02Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 26:03Greg Jenner?

  So he's called El cid by this point, right? The name Rodrigo has sort of turned into the Lord. So there we go. Quite the life. Toussaint, where do you stand?

• 26:12Speaker 05

  I, uh, I'm still a bit of a fan. Yeah. I think he's a go-getter, you know, and he's done his thing.

• 26:20Greg Jenner?

  He go-get and then sets fire to.

• 26:21Speaker 05

  He go-get, sets fire, and then leaves, yeah.

• 26:25Greg Jenner?

  The nuance window!

• 26:31Greg Jenner?

  Time now for the nuance window. This is where Toussaint and I sit quietly and snack on our mire and balsam so we can mummify ourselves for two minutes while Professor Nora rides into battle, hopefully still alive, to tell us something we need to know about El-Sidd/Rodrigo Diaz. My stopwatch is ready. Take it away, Professor Berend.

• 26:50Speaker 04

  What I think is very intriguing is not simply how Rodrigo Diaz was transformed into El-Sidd, but how that mythical construct then became a kind of mascot and rallying cry for both the right and the left. And even, of course, today, now, the new right and far right again uses El-Sidd as a kind of prototype white supremacist fighting against Muslims and migrants. But, very strangely, he's also been picked up as a model guy for peaceful coexistence and multiculturalism. So, somebody who lived together with and learned from Muslims. So, I think this is a very interesting mixture.

• 27:34Speaker 04

  And, of course, the left-wing use of the Sidd goes back already to early modern times, when this legend developed about him enforcing this oath so that the nobles would not accept off of the sixth until he swears he had nothing to do with his brother's murder, Sancho's murder. That turns the Sidd into a kind of person who can hold kings to justice, someone who's against tyranny. And so, in early modern times, he's already represented in this way. And in the 19th century, when in 1820, Colonel Riego reintroduced the liberal constitution,

• 28:15Speaker 04

  there was a song written for the so-called anthem of Riego, written for this, which then became the republican kind of national anthem. There, the Sidd is really kind of the representative of the good guys, the liberals are his sons. So, I think this is quite a posthumous career for such an opportunistic warrior.

• 28:36Greg Jenner?

  Amazing, thank you so much. Two minutes on the clock. I mean, amazing. One minute fifty-nine.

• 28:40Speaker 05

  That was brilliant. That was great.

• 28:43Greg Jenner?

  So there we go. He's everything to everyone.

• 28:45Speaker 05

  Yeah. I think for me, El Cid, to me, I'm gonna use El Cid, like, when I have, like, a really bad gig, you know, when I, like, really die, I'm just gonna die, I'm just gonna die, I'm just gonna go like that.

• 28:56Greg Jenner?

  Strap yourself to a horse.

• 28:58Speaker 05

  Yeah, strap myself to a horse. And like, when I have to go to, like, I don't know, you know, Slough for a gig or something, I'll just strap myself to a horse.

• 29:06Greg Jenner?

  Anyway, that was lots of fun. Thank you so much for that fascinating insight. Listener, if you want more Spanish history, we have episodes, of course, on Alan de Luce or Hernán Cortés and Melintzin. For more famous medieval warriors, we've covered Joan of Arc, that's all the way back in series one, you have to scroll forever on the app, sorry. We've done Owen Glendur in Wales. And of course, for more Toussaint, we've gone into American history with Frederick Douglass, an extraordinary man, brilliant man, and well worth knowing about. And we did the courses, the British Civil Wars. So we've covered all sorts of stuff together.

• 29:36Speaker 05

  Marvel episode.

• 29:37Greg Jenner?

  It was. If you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds to hear new episodes twenty-eight days earlier than anywhere else, lucky you. If you're outside the UK, you can listen at bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner. We had the brilliant Professor Nora Berend from the University of Cambridge. Thank you, Nora.

• 29:58Speaker 04

  Thank you for inviting me.

• 29:59Greg Jenner?

  It was an absolute hoot, what fun we had. And in Comedy Corner, we had the terrific Toussaint Douglas. Thanks, Toussaint.

• 30:05Speaker 05

  Thank you so much for having me to go with. It was a pleasure.

• 30:07Greg Jenner?

  Very, very good. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we peel back the layers on another larger-than-life historical figure. But for now, I'm off to go and beg some monks to write flattering fanfiction about me when I die. Bye.

• 30:33Greg Jenner?

  Do the wonder products that you see on your social media and supermarket shelves really deliver?

• 30:38Speaker 05

  Bold claims.

• 30:39Speaker 02

  Dehumidifiers. Standing discs. Nail polish.

• 30:42Speaker 05

  From supplements claiming to boost your mind and body.

• 30:45Speaker 02

  I've seen so many claims about creatine.

• 30:47Speaker 05

  To fake tans promising a safe streak free glow.

• 30:50Speaker 02

  I really like it.

• 30:51Speaker 05

  I'm Greg Foot and my BBC Radio 4 show Sliced Bread is back to separate more science fact from marketing fiction.

• 30:59Speaker 02

  I would tend to lean towards it being a positive.

• 31:01Speaker 05

  All our suggestions come from your emails or voice notes, even if you're a bit under the weather. Hello Greg, I want to know about cough mixture. I'm finding out the answers in my new series of Sliced Bread, available first on BBC Sounds.

• 31:22Greg Jenner?

  In 1872, the Mari Celeste was found adrift in the Atlantic. Every person on board was gone and none of them were ever seen again. Every Monday on Hidden History, Dr Harini Butt takes an unexplained event from history just like that one, reads the evidence like a case file and tells you what she thinks happened. No hedging. Start with the Mari Celeste episode for a look at one of history's most enduring maritime enigmas. Follow Hidden History with Dr Harini Butt wherever you get your podcasts.