Pod Insights You're Dead to Me Empress Dowager Cixi (Radio Edit) About this episode Greg Jenner is joined in 19th-century China by historian Professor Yangwen Zheng and comedian Sophie Duker to learn about the Qing dynasty ruler Empress Dowager Cixi.
A contemporary of Queen Victoria, Cixi rose from low-ranked concubine to de facto ruler of China for nearly half a century, and lived through a dizzying array of events in China’s nineteenth-century history, including the Taiping Rebellion, the Opium Wars, and the Boxer Rebellion. Ruling through her son and then her nephew, Empress Dowager Cixi dominated late Qing dynasty China, and oversaw a variety of economic and military – if not political – reforms. This episode charts her life, from her entry into the Forbidden Palace as a teenager all the way to her death in 1908, taking in the politics and traditions of the Qing imperial court, her relationship with Emperor Xianfeng and her rival turned co-ruler Empress Dowager Ci'an, and her determined attempts to gain and maintain power.
This is a radio edit of the original podcast episode. For the full-length version, please look further back in the feed.
Hosted by: Greg Jenner
Research by: Emma Mitchell
Written by: Emma Mitchell, Dr Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Dr Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner
Produced by: Dr Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner
Audio Producer: Steve Hankey
Production Coordinator: Gill Huggett
Senior Producer: Dr Emma Nagouse
Executive Editor: Philip Sellars
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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1:07 Greg Jenner? Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name is Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we're bouncing back to the Chinese Imperial Court and bowing our heads in deference as we learn all about one of the 19th century's most formidable rulers, Empress Dowager Su Shi. And to help us, we have two very special guests. In history corner, she's Professor of Chinese History at the University of Manchester, where she specializes in Ming and Qing era trade and economic history. She's the author of numerous books, including the recent Railway Imperialism in China, A Political Biography. It's Professor Yang Wen Zhong. Welcome, Yang Wen.
1:44 Speaker 05 Thank you.
1:44 Greg Jenner? And in comedy corner, she's an award winning comedian and writer. You'll recognize her from loads of TV, including her glorious victory on Taskmaster, and maybe you've seen her recent sellout stand up show, But Daddy, I Love Her. And you'll certainly remember her from our back catalogue, including episodes on Ashanti Ghana, The Naughty Nun Benedetta Carlini, and The History of Coffee. It's Sophie Juca. Welcome back, Sophie. Yay, thank you.
2:05 Speaker 06 Xiexie? Xiexie? Oh, God, I didn't want to say it because I was like gearing up to it like a horse up to a jump and I was like, you're going to brutalise the most basic word in Chinese. Xiexie?
2:15 Speaker 05 Xiexie, yeah.
2:16 Speaker 06 Xiexie.
2:16 Greg Jenner? That's pretty good.
2:17 Speaker 05 Yeah.
2:18 Speaker 06 Thank you, Yangwen. Thank you.
2:20 Greg Jenner? We've been all over the world together on the show. We've never done Chinese history with you.
2:24 Speaker 06 No.
2:24 Greg Jenner? How are you with Chinese history?
2:26 Speaker 06 I think it's probably bad because I was educated in the UK.
2:29 Greg Jenner? Yeah, did I?
2:29 Speaker 06 I don't know a lot about China and what I know about China has probably been like filtered through quite a problematic lens. But I did go to China recently. I actually, I say I went to China, I went through Shenzhen Airport and it was a great experience.
2:46 Greg Jenner? Great.
2:47 Speaker 06 I loved it.
2:47 Greg Jenner? Does that count as going to China?
2:48 Speaker 06 It doesn't, no.
2:50 Speaker 05 No, Shenzhen, Shenzhen really is not China, no.
2:54 Greg Jenner? And does the name Empress Dowager Su Shi ring any bells?
2:59 Speaker 06 I think I've seen it written down. I think it's like, I've probably also heard it, but I haven't connected it because of the spelling, which in Roman is like C I X I.
3:08 Greg Jenner? That's right. In English, we spell it C I X I.
3:10 Speaker 06 So I think it's probably hard to connect what I've heard to the name. I feel like she's one of these like historical badass women, which maybe is slightly infantilising. She's, feels like she's an icon. I hope we're not going to learn that she's like a terrible villain now.
3:25 Greg Jenner? We will see.
3:27 Speaker 06 We'll see. She's a terrible villain.
3:28 Greg Jenner? So, what do you know?
3:35 Greg Jenner? And that brings us to the first segment of the podcast, the So What Do You Know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, might know about today's subject. And Empress Dowager Su Shi is known throughout East Asia, where she's the subject of any number of films, books and TV shows. But despite her decades in power, she's much less famous in the English-speaking world than, of course, her contemporary, Queen Victoria. Although Su Shi does have a brief appearance in Bernardo Bertolucci's 1987 film, The Last Emperor. So who was this woman who ruled China for nearly five decades? How did she cling to power for so long and why was it never wise to accept one of her cakes? Let's find out. So she's birth, could you please paint us a picture of China at the time?
4:20 Speaker 05 This was the Qing Dynasty.
4:22 Greg Jenner? Okay.
4:23 Speaker 05 And they were from Manchuria, they are Manchu's. They conquered China in sixteen forty four. It's amazing, five hundred thousand people came down to China to conquer this country of a hundred twenty million.
4:38 Greg Jenner? Wow.
4:39 Speaker 05 They ruled China from sixteen forty four to nineteen eleven, until the revolution.
4:44 Greg Jenner? And the centre of power would be what we now call Beijing.
4:47 Speaker 05 Yeah.
4:48 Greg Jenner? But was called Peking then.
4:49 Speaker 05 Peking, yes.
4:50 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
4:50 Speaker 05 And this other name, Beiping as well, so there's different names.
4:54 Greg Jenner? And they lived, what was their palace like? What was it called?
4:57 Speaker 05 Forbidden City.
4:58 Greg Jenner? Forbidden for whom?
5:00 Speaker 05 The ordinary people.
5:01 Greg Jenner? Ah, Sophie.
5:02 Speaker 06 Okay, yeah, yeah, you and me.
5:05 Greg Jenner? They've been on the throne for four centuries at the start of our story.
5:07 Speaker 05 Yeah.
5:08 Greg Jenner? And Sophie, given that Su Shi ends up ruling China for this five decades stretch, what kind of family do you think she comes from?
5:16 Speaker 05 Oh, a powerful family.
5:19 Greg Jenner? Sure. Su Shi's father is a government official. I mean, what level of power would he have had?
5:24 Speaker 05 Yeah, so her father, it was basically mid-level, provincial, very low. Not very high in the echelon.
5:33 Greg Jenner? I've called her Su Shi, that's not really her name in childhood or her youth, is it?
5:39 Speaker 05 Yeah, this is her reign title, yeah.
5:41 Greg Jenner? Okay, what do her family call her?
5:42 Speaker 05 She's like a controversial character. There's lots of debates about where she was born, what was her nickname? And some people think it's orchid girl.
5:52 Speaker 06 Okay.
5:52 Speaker 05 Lanner.
5:53 Greg Jenner? That's quite nice.
5:54 Speaker 05 Yeah.
5:55 Greg Jenner? Her childhood, she's educated, she can read and write?
5:57 Speaker 05 Yeah, even though her father is mid-level, but they're Manchu, remember Manchu are overlords.
6:04 Speaker 06 Okay.
6:05 Speaker 05 Yeah, so no matter how low you are as a Manchu, you're always higher than the Chinese.
6:11 Greg Jenner? Oh, I see.
6:12 Speaker 05 Yes, I would say she had a very good upbringing because she was able to read and write. She's a very good painter.
6:20 Greg Jenner? Wow.
6:20 Speaker 06 Okay.
6:20 Speaker 05 And she could sing. In a way, they were bringing her up, probably in the hope that she will marry up.
6:28 Speaker 06 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
6:29 Greg Jenner? Unfortunately, her father was caught taking bribes, Sophie.
6:32 Speaker 06 Hey.
6:35 Greg Jenner? He was caught, his hand in the cookie jar.
6:37 Speaker 06 Yeah.
6:37 Greg Jenner? He lost his job in eighteen fifty one when she was sixteen. They returned to Beijing and he died. He fell ill and died.
6:43 Speaker 06 Of shame.
6:44 Greg Jenner? Of maybe of shame.
6:45 Speaker 06 No, probably just of illness.
6:47 Speaker 05 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
6:48 Greg Jenner? What is this next stage for age sixteen? Does she go to Beijing and try and become a consort? Is that the route?
6:55 Speaker 05 Yeah, so what happens is every two or three years, the court will have an order, idiot, saying, Manchu families who have girls between thirteen and sixteen or seventeen, twelve, that age, must send them to the court to be selected. It's like a beauty contest.
7:14 Speaker 06 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
7:14 Speaker 05 So it's a level by level elimination.
7:17 Greg Jenner? Wow.
7:18 Speaker 05 So by the time you get to the imperial court.
7:20 Greg Jenner? Miss Manchu.
7:21 Speaker 05 Yeah, so, yeah, yeah, Miss Manchu, it's a beauty contest.
7:24 Greg Jenner? Yeah, okay.
7:25 Speaker 06 I mean, if you're hot, you're like.
7:27 Greg Jenner? Sure.
7:27 Speaker 06 You're banking on that.
7:28 Greg Jenner? I never had that. Sadly, I've never traded on my hotness. So we have a sixteen year old going to court and she is selected.
7:36 Speaker 05 Yes, so was her sister.
7:37 Greg Jenner? Oh, really?
7:38 Speaker 05 Younger sister, but she was given to a prince. So she was given to the brother of the emperor. So she, when she was chosen, she actually, because there are nine ranks.
7:52 Speaker 06 Okay, nine ranks of emperor's concubine.
7:54 Speaker 05 Yes.
7:55 Speaker 06 Okay.
7:55 Speaker 05 So there's only one emperors, but the rest are senior, you know, all the sorts of titles. So she actually starts at rank six.
8:03 Greg Jenner? Six.
8:04 Speaker 05 Nine, so she's.
8:05 Speaker 06 Nine.
8:06 Speaker 05 Yeah.
8:06 Speaker 06 It's like sets in maths.
8:10 Greg Jenner? I was going to ask you, Sophie, I mean, you know, if you were starting on level six of nine.
8:14 Speaker 06 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
8:14 Greg Jenner? How would you try and stand out amongst your competition? There's, you know, there's ten other girls there.
8:19 Speaker 06 Ten other girls.
8:20 Speaker 05 Yes.
8:22 Speaker 06 This feels very much like lot of TikTok format.
8:27 Speaker 06 The emperor's gonna pop a balloon if he doesn't like me. I think, I think I would be like, okay, everyone here is really pretty.
8:33 Speaker 05 Yes.
8:34 Speaker 06 Maybe I've got like an additional, maybe I can soothe him.
8:37 Greg Jenner? Soothe, okay.
8:38 Speaker 06 Like I can sing, like that's, I'm saying hypothetically, I would do that. If I was to sing, it would not be soothing.
8:45 Speaker 06 Maybe I would like sort of try and show him some of what I've learned outside so that he knows that I'm intelligent and useful as well as pretty.
8:52 Greg Jenner? Nice.
8:53 Speaker 06 Or, you know, just have a son.
8:57 Greg Jenner? So presumably, Yangwen, Lady Lan charms the Emperor because she ends up with, you know, obviously with a scenic career. So he sort of chooses her and she becomes his favourite. By sort of age nineteen or so, she's the top of the concubines.
9:10 Speaker 05 In a way. The only difference is that she gave birth to a son.
9:14 Greg Jenner? Ah, okay.
9:15 Speaker 05 On the twenty-seventh of April eighteen fifty-six, gave birth to a son called Zai Cun. With the son, she can walk with her head high.
9:26 Greg Jenner? She is promoted and every time she's promoted, she gets a new name.
9:29 Speaker 06 Oh.
9:29 Greg Jenner? So she goes from Laner to Lady Lan, then she becomes Concubine Yi.
9:33 Speaker 05 Yeah.
9:34 Greg Jenner? Then, when she has a child, Concubine Yi, a year later, she gets elevated to the fourth rank, becomes Consort Yi.
9:40 Speaker 05 Yeah.
9:40 Speaker 06 Okay.
9:41 Greg Jenner? And then, one year later, she becomes Noble Consort Yi.
9:44 Speaker 05 Yeah.
9:44 Greg Jenner? And she goes to the third. So she started at level six and she goes to level three.
9:47 Speaker 05 Yeah.
9:48 Greg Jenner? Which is as high as you can go.
9:49 Speaker 05 Phenomenal.
9:50 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
9:51 Speaker 05 She can't be Empress because the Empress was already there.
9:54 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
9:54 Speaker 05 The Empress is like the first wife you never touch.
9:57 Greg Jenner? Right.
9:57 Speaker 06 You can't touch her.
9:58 Speaker 05 Yeah, you can't touch her because it's a political marriage.
10:00 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
10:00 Speaker 05 Yeah.
10:01 Speaker 06 Is her promotion completely at the discretion of the Emperor?
10:04 Greg Jenner? Yes.
10:05 Speaker 05 Her talent helped at this point because it's mid eighteen fifty's. We have conflicts, war coming, the Taiping Rebellion, the domestic rebels.
10:17 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
10:18 Speaker 05 And the British coming, Second Opium War, the Russians were annexing lands in the north. So it's a lot of trouble. The young Emperor really was not fit for the job.
10:29 Greg Jenner? Yeah, he's only a few years older than her, isn't he?
10:31 Speaker 05 Yeah.
10:31 Greg Jenner? He's only in his twenties, yeah.
10:33 Speaker 05 Yeah.
10:33 Greg Jenner? So during this time, the Emperor is struggling and he's turning to drugs, which means presumably someone needs to run the show.
10:38 Speaker 05 Yeah.
10:39 Greg Jenner? And we have a young lady who going, "I'll do it."
10:41 Speaker 05 Yeah. So she began by, she goes into his office and there's a stacks of documents he needs to go over and decide, you know, somebody, "We need thirty million pounds, whatever, tails for the rebels and there's a disaster here, the people are dying," right? So there are things that he needs to do to decide. But he's like, you know, he's just not up to it.
11:04 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
11:04 Speaker 05 And guess who's up to it?
11:06 Greg Jenner? Yeah, it's not the Empress who says, I'll do it.
11:08 Speaker 06 It's level three.
11:09 Greg Jenner? Level three.
11:10 Speaker 05 Yeah.
11:10 Speaker 06 Oh, my God.
11:11 Greg Jenner? Consort, yeah.
11:11 Speaker 06 Consort.
11:12 Greg Jenner? Consort Yi.
11:13 Speaker 05 Consort Yi, and she loved doing this.
11:15 Greg Jenner? And of course, they are defeated in the Second Opium War. The treaty is forced upon them in the Kowloon Peninsula and so on. So it's gone really wrong. And then it goes even worse. So Fei, do you know what happens to the Emperor?
11:26 Speaker 06 He gets real sick from opium.
11:29 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
11:30 Speaker 06 Gets real.
11:31 Greg Jenner? Real sick, and then he gets as sick as you can get. He gets dead.
11:34 Speaker 06 He gets dead. Sick as that.
11:36 Greg Jenner? Yeah, he died in eighteen sixty-one.
11:38 Speaker 06 Oh, no.
11:39 Greg Jenner? Which presumably leaves our Lady Consort Yi in serious trouble, you think, right?
11:43 Speaker 06 Oh, yeah, because she's not in favour anymore.
11:47 Greg Jenner? There's no more Emperor in favour. But of course, she does have a son.
11:50 Speaker 06 Oh, who is the only heir.
11:51 Greg Jenner? The only heir. So is this where, Yangwen, we get now another name change? Do we finally get to meet Sir Yi?
11:59 Speaker 05 Yes.
11:59 Greg Jenner? Hooray. Okay.
12:01 Speaker 06 Final form.
12:02 Greg Jenner? Final form. Actually, no, there's more to come.
12:06 Greg Jenner? So she now is the Regent on behalf of her little boy?
12:10 Speaker 05 Yeah, so what happens? Because the boy is the only heir, only son, so he gets to be Emperor. Now, the original Empress becomes Empress Dowager.
12:20 Greg Jenner? Right, okay.
12:21 Speaker 05 But because she's the mother of the six-year-old boy, so she is also elevated to Empress Dowager. So she is below the Empress Dowager.
12:32 Greg Jenner? So Empress Dowager number one is Shu'an?
12:35 Speaker 05 Shu'an, yes.
12:36 Greg Jenner? Okay, and Empress Dowager number two is our Lady Lan and Yi-turned Tsushi.
12:42 Speaker 05 Yeah.
12:43 Speaker 06 Okay.
12:43 Greg Jenner? Wow.
12:44 Speaker 06 Wow, it's a lot of extended family.
12:46 Greg Jenner? It's a lot of extended family. And also, two women who now have to join forces to run the show. But do they have the same values and yeah?
12:53 Speaker 06 Yeah. Yeah.
12:55 Greg Jenner? So surprisingly, Yangwen, the two women team up, right?
12:59 Speaker 05 They do.
12:59 Greg Jenner? They've become a kind of double act.
13:01 Speaker 06 Love that.
13:02 Greg Jenner? Yeah, so how does that work? Who makes decisions? Or do they both have to agree on a decision?
13:06 Speaker 05 Yes, they do.
13:08 Greg Jenner? Right.
13:08 Speaker 05 Yeah, so in the beginning, they worked actually like a good team because they have common interests. Because the emperor had appointed an agency of eight ministers. Eight men.
13:22 Speaker 06 Yeah.
13:22 Speaker 05 These eight men didn't treat these two women.
13:25 Speaker 06 Very well.
13:26 Speaker 05 As an equal.
13:27 Greg Jenner? Right.
13:27 Speaker 05 Of course, you don't like that, right? It's like, what? I'm Emperor Stowager and you're treating me like this?
13:32 Greg Jenner? Yeah. And they launched a bit of a coup? I mean.
13:34 Speaker 05 Yes, yes.
13:35 Speaker 06 So they get rid of the ministers.
13:36 Greg Jenner? They get rid of the ministers.
13:37 Speaker 06 Amazing. This is great.
13:40 Speaker 05 This is great.
13:41 Speaker 06 Oh, no.
13:42 Greg Jenner? So, start of the episode, you said a bit of a kind of boss lady vibes.
13:45 Speaker 06 Yeah, badass, yeah.
13:46 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
13:46 Speaker 06 Collaboration.
13:47 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
13:47 Speaker 05 Yeah.
13:48 Greg Jenner? So far, how do you feel about her? She's, I mean, she's, she's obviously risen up.
13:53 Speaker 06 I feel positive about her.
13:54 Greg Jenner? Okay.
13:54 Speaker 06 I feel like she's enterprising.
13:55 Greg Jenner? Yes.
13:56 Speaker 06 I feel like she's, she's like done right by her family. She's had a son. I'm on board.
14:00 Greg Jenner? Okay, we'll check back in later because maybe it changes. This power sharing, it's fine while the emperor is a boy. So he's small, he's six, he's, he's little, he doesn't understand the world.
14:10 Speaker 06 Yeah.
14:11 Greg Jenner? Surely when he becomes thirteen or fourteen, he's going to want to get rid of his mum and his step mum or whatever it is.
14:17 Speaker 06 Yeah.
14:17 Greg Jenner? He's gonna wanna go solo.
14:19 Speaker 05 So he wasn't a good emperor. And then he rushes into many decisions.
14:25 Greg Jenner? Mm hmm.
14:25 Speaker 05 He gets, you know, because it, can you imagine eighteen years old? Gee, I'm emperor. I can do anything, right? He fires ministers without consulting his two mothers.
14:36 Greg Jenner? Right.
14:36 Speaker 05 And of course, it doesn't work that way.
14:39 Speaker 06 Yeah.
14:40 Speaker 05 And he had a much better relationship with Tsan.
14:44 Speaker 06 That is biological mother.
14:46 Speaker 05 Than his biological mother.
14:47 Greg Jenner? Oh, really?
14:48 Speaker 05 Because the biological mother is a dominating figure.
14:51 Greg Jenner? Okay.
14:52 Speaker 05 And she would, she would slap him.
14:54 Greg Jenner? She slapped him?
14:55 Speaker 05 Yeah, yeah.
14:56 Greg Jenner? Wow.
14:56 Speaker 06 Wow.
14:57 Speaker 05 And she would slap him with the ruler in China. If you failed exam or didn't do your homework, you stuck your hands out and the teacher or your mother can use the ruler to beat you.
15:07 Greg Jenner? He's the emperor of China.
15:08 Speaker 05 Yes, I know.
15:09 Speaker 06 She's meeting the ruler with a ruler.
15:11 Greg Jenner? Yay, there you go. So she stalls him, she won't hand him full power yet.
15:16 Speaker 05 No.
15:17 Greg Jenner? Do you know what she demands of him first?
15:19 Speaker 06 He has to get married.
15:21 Greg Jenner? Yes, very good.
15:22 Speaker 06 Yes.
15:23 Greg Jenner? You've got good instincts here, Sophie.
15:25 Speaker 06 I know how mothers-in-law. Future mothers-in-law.
15:29 Greg Jenner? Yes, she demands you must get married first. And so what, they choose the girls for him?
15:33 Speaker 05 Ah, that comes the real interesting story.
15:36 Greg Jenner? Okay.
15:36 Speaker 05 Because you have the beauty contest.
15:38 Greg Jenner? Okay, yeah.
15:39 Speaker 06 Yay.
15:39 Speaker 05 And he's 18 years old.
15:40 Greg Jenner? Miss Manchu, yeah.
15:41 Speaker 05 Yeah, he go pops around, oh yeah, all those nice, good-looking girls. And then he chose the one he likes. It's also the one that the Empress Cian likes.
15:53 Greg Jenner? Right.
15:54 Speaker 06 Okay.
15:54 Speaker 05 It's a ranking family, political marriage, but this is a pretty girl, very well-educated, knew how to be empress and all that.
16:02 Greg Jenner? By 1874, the emperor, he gets ill. And I think we know where this story goes, because we've heard it already before.
16:09 Speaker 06 Oh no.
16:10 Speaker 05 Yeah.
16:10 Greg Jenner? What happens to him this time?
16:12 Speaker 05 He died.
16:13 Greg Jenner? He died.
16:14 Speaker 05 Yeah.
16:14 Greg Jenner? What was his illness? Because there was an official illness and there was a real illness.
16:17 Speaker 05 Yeah, the official was smallpox.
16:19 Speaker 06 Okay.
16:20 Speaker 05 But because he's got spots all over the place and his body was kind of rotting, we think it's syphilis.
16:27 Greg Jenner? Ah, okay. And so, so she, she has lost a sort of a husband of sorts. She's now lost her son. There are now no more men to control, Sophie. So how is she going to cling to power?
16:39 Speaker 06 Oh, I guess there are no boys at all.
16:42 Greg Jenner? Well, she finds one.
16:44 Speaker 06 Oh, she finds one?
16:45 Greg Jenner? Yeah, she digs up her nephew, right?
16:47 Speaker 05 Yeah, so for her to continue to be Empress Dowager, she needs another son.
16:54 Speaker 06 Okay.
16:55 Speaker 05 So where did she get the other son? Remember, her sister was also in the beauty contest.
17:00 Speaker 06 Oh, yes.
17:01 Speaker 05 And the sister was married off to the brother of the emperor. So it's her own nephew from both sides.
17:07 Speaker 06 Yeah.
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19:11 Greg Jenner? So she's on to sort of Emperor number three.
19:14 Speaker 05 Yeah.
19:15 Greg Jenner? So she's back in charge again, right?
19:17 Speaker 05 Yeah.
19:17 Greg Jenner? So she's back in the hot seat.
19:19 Speaker 05 Yeah, and a lot of Manchurian nobles were against this.
19:23 Speaker 06 Yeah.
19:23 Speaker 05 Because this is not natural. And before we go there, her daughter-in-law, remember, her son had an empress. The one she didn't like.
19:33 Greg Jenner? Right.
19:33 Speaker 05 She was actually pregnant.
19:35 Greg Jenner? But that pregnant.
19:37 Speaker 05 Ah, this pregnant.
19:38 Greg Jenner? Yes.
19:39 Speaker 05 Empress Dowager Empress, who was about 18, 19 years old, died three months after the Tongji Emperor died.
19:49 Greg Jenner? Suspicious timing, Sophie.
19:50 Speaker 05 Very suspicious timing.
19:51 Speaker 06 Yeah.
19:52 Speaker 05 She was pregnant. We know that for sure.
19:54 Greg Jenner? And soon after, the Empress Dowager Shu'an also died. Suspicious timing.
19:59 Speaker 06 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
20:00 Speaker 05 Yeah.
20:00 Greg Jenner? And do you know how Su Shi was rumored to have been involved in this second one?
20:04 Speaker 06 With the Empress Dowager, her former.
20:06 Greg Jenner? Her former sort of partner in crime.
20:09 Speaker 06 Partner in crime.
20:09 Speaker 05 Yeah.
20:10 Speaker 06 Women own business. She, I feel like a poisoning.
20:15 Greg Jenner? Yeah, it is a poisoning.
20:16 Speaker 06 Yeah, I feel like that happens with people with lab names.
20:19 Greg Jenner? Do you know what the poison was put in?
20:21 Speaker 06 Oh, a drink?
20:23 Greg Jenner? No, I mentioned at the beginning, actually, it was put in a sweet cake.
20:26 Speaker 06 A sweet cake?
20:27 Greg Jenner? Sweet cake, a Bake Off special, and suddenly the Dowager Empress Shu'an is dead. People at court are suspicious, but they can't prove it.
20:38 Speaker 05 Nope.
20:38 Speaker 06 Yeah.
20:39 Speaker 05 Nothing is proved.
20:40 Greg Jenner? So now we have one woman running the show.
20:42 Speaker 05 Yes.
20:42 Greg Jenner? Because there's a four-year-old boy over here.
20:44 Speaker 05 Yeah.
20:45 Greg Jenner? And only one Empress Dowager. That's what she wants. So finally, Su Shi is the absolute power behind the, she is the throne, really.
20:52 Speaker 05 Yes.
20:52 Greg Jenner? Yeah. Sophie, obviously, you're not going to commit a crime anytime soon, but if you had to, if you were going to have to take out a comedy rival, Catherine Bohart, get rid of her now.
21:02 Speaker 06 No, Catherine would never eat anything I served. But you can keep that in. How would I do it? I think I'd have to do something in the green room. I think if you put free chips in the green room in any, any green room in the country, comics are going to eat it.
21:17 Greg Jenner? That's true.
21:17 Speaker 06 So I think it would have to be like hot fries.
21:19 Greg Jenner? The problem is all the comedians would die. It wouldn't be just one. You would lose an entire, an entire bell of comedians.
21:26 Speaker 06 Yeah, but I mean, like, I don't mind taking out a night at the Comedy Store.
21:32 Greg Jenner? How do you imagine her as a ruler? We've talked about her as sort of climbing the ladder in terms of court politics. What do you imagine she's like in terms of China?
21:39 Speaker 06 I imagine she's not fun.
21:43 Speaker 05 I love that.
21:46 Speaker 06 I don't think she's... I think because I think she's had a lot of time tolerating these wastrel or literal baby kings. So I feel like she's maybe a bit more austere. She's a bit more tight with the purse strings and a bit more punitive.
21:59 Greg Jenner? Sure.
22:00 Speaker 05 Is that correct?
22:01 Greg Jenner? Yang Wen, what is, in terms of her public policy? In terms of what she does for the people of China? What can we ascribe to her?
22:08 Speaker 05 In a way, she was a good ruler. Because after the Second Open War, China basically avoided conflict with the West for 20 or 30 years.
22:21 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
22:22 Speaker 05 And she launched reform. She sanctioned a lot of reform projects. China was learning from the West, catching up, modernizing, industrializing. She sanctioned all those projects.
22:34 Greg Jenner? Yeah, she bought warships and weapons.
22:36 Speaker 05 Yes, railways and all that stuff. So telegraph lines and modern factories.
22:41 Greg Jenner? Yeah, I mean, you've written a book on the history of the railways in China. That's her policy.
22:45 Speaker 05 Yeah.
22:46 Greg Jenner? And then, of course, her nephew slash son grows up and he becomes Emperor Guan Zhou?
22:50 Speaker 05 Yes, and the same story with Qing emperors.
22:53 Greg Jenner? I was gonna say.
22:54 Speaker 05 Concubines repeats again.
22:55 Greg Jenner? Right, so she's like, you can't be emperor until you're married and I'm gonna choose your wife. Is that right?
23:00 Speaker 05 Yes.
23:01 Greg Jenner? There's all these external pressures on her, these wars, China fighting Japan, France and so on. And she's trying to bring in these reforms in the army and in society.
23:09 Speaker 05 Yeah.
23:09 Greg Jenner? But there is a coup against her. Sophie, and do you know what happens in this coup? Do you know who leads the coup, Habs?
23:17 Speaker 06 Coup, I'd say probably led by another concubine.
23:22 Greg Jenner? Oh, nice.
23:23 Speaker 06 Yeah.
23:24 Greg Jenner? A rival sushi who's gonna climb the ladder.
23:26 Speaker 06 Concubine or concubine, yeah, someone of the nine levels.
23:29 Greg Jenner? Yeah, it's a good guess. Yang Wen, it's not a concubine.
23:31 Speaker 05 No.
23:32 Greg Jenner? Do you wanna tell us who it is?
23:34 Speaker 05 It's the emperor.
23:35 Greg Jenner? It's her nephew.
23:36 Speaker 05 Her nephew.
23:37 Greg Jenner? It's amazing that we called it a coup, because he is the emperor.
23:40 Speaker 06 He's like, hold on a minute.
23:42 Speaker 05 Yeah, yeah.
23:43 Greg Jenner? It's not a coup, it's it's my own throne. But yeah, he tries, he tries to get rid of her.
23:47 Speaker 05 Yes.
23:48 Greg Jenner? And she does some political judo.
23:50 Speaker 05 Yes.
23:51 Greg Jenner? And she gets rid of him.
23:51 Speaker 05 Yeah, well, she put him under house arrest for the next.
23:56 Speaker 06 This is the audacity, I love it.
23:58 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
23:59 Speaker 05 This makes a fantastic film. She put him under house arrest on an island.
24:04 Speaker 06 Okay, island arrest.
24:06 Speaker 05 Yeah, from September eighteen ninety eight to November nineteen oh eight, when he died.
24:13 Greg Jenner? So ten years.
24:15 Speaker 05 Ten years.
24:15 Greg Jenner? So he's, is he sort of secretly, like, is, is, does the rest of the country know that their emperor is?
24:20 Speaker 05 No.
24:21 Greg Jenner? Stuck in a shed somewhere?
24:22 Speaker 05 No.
24:22 Greg Jenner? Really?
24:23 Speaker 05 Because all the edicts were still issued in the name of the emperor.
24:27 Greg Jenner? The Guangzhou Emperor, okay.
24:28 Speaker 05 Yeah.
24:29 Greg Jenner? So there we go. So if you come for the, well, I was gonna say come for the king. If you come for the Empress Dowager, you better not miss, Sophie.
24:34 Speaker 06 Better not miss.
24:35 Speaker 05 Yes.
24:35 Speaker 06 Wow.
24:36 Speaker 05 Yeah.
24:36 Greg Jenner? So her own nephew in house arrest.
24:39 Speaker 06 Her nephew on an island.
24:40 Greg Jenner? Possibly poisoned her sort of business partner.
24:43 Speaker 06 Yeah.
24:43 Greg Jenner? Possibly poisoned a pregnant woman. Yeah. She died in nineteen oh eight. Sophie, do you know what her final act was? Literally within the days before her death, what's the last thing she did?
24:54 Speaker 06 In her final days, she knew she was gonna die.
24:58 Greg Jenner? She, she's at the end of her life.
25:00 Speaker 06 She picked her heir?
25:02 Greg Jenner? Well, do you remember the emperor, who's still in house arrest?
25:05 Speaker 06 Oh, yeah, on the island.
25:06 Greg Jenner? She got rid of him.
25:07 Speaker 06 Oh, no.
25:09 Greg Jenner? One day before she died.
25:10 Speaker 05 Sixteen hours before.
25:12 Greg Jenner? Sixteen hours before she died.
25:14 Speaker 06 Oh, my god.
25:15 Greg Jenner? He wasn't gonna come back to power.
25:17 Speaker 06 Wow. She's a real bitter, bitter lady. Not bitter, I mean, she's like, you don't have to get bitter if you take care of business before you go.
25:24 Greg Jenner? Yeah, she just, she lined up all the dominoes.
25:27 Speaker 05 Yeah, she, he, she was dying and she said to people around her that he must die before I die.
25:35 Greg Jenner? Okay, so she bumped off the emperor.
25:37 Speaker 05 Yeah.
25:37 Greg Jenner? So who was the next, the next person to take over was, is the, the last emperor, the famous last emperor?
25:42 Speaker 05 Yeah, the, yeah, the last.
25:43 Greg Jenner? And he's another three year old boy.
25:44 Speaker 05 Yes.
25:47 Speaker 05 So when you see boy emperors in Chinese history, something fishy is going on.
25:50 Greg Jenner? Right, okay. That three-year-old is the son of the nephew that she murders. So, and of course, he abdicates in 1911, and that is the end of the imperial story.
25:59 Speaker 05 Yeah.
26:00 Greg Jenner? So, quite the life, Sophie.
26:01 Speaker 06 Yeah.
26:02 Greg Jenner? How do you feel about Su Shi now?
26:04 Speaker 06 Su Shi, I feel resoundingly positive.
26:09 Speaker 06 I feel real good about her.
26:10 Greg Jenner? Because I feel like she entered her villain era, and I'm not sure she left it.
26:13 Speaker 06 Yeah, she didn't really depart from the villain era, but I mean, like, she played the game. I think she was an incredible player of the game. Also, a little bit of poison. A little bit of poison is not the worst thing in the world. And I think I really respect how she refused to let adult men be in charge. Hey, I don't love that she murdered a pregnant woman.
26:34 Greg Jenner? Sure.
26:34 Speaker 06 And you can quote me on that. I can't stay mad at her. I know she did some bad things.
26:38 Greg Jenner? Okay.
26:39 Speaker 06 But I think she is sort of an inspiration.
26:48 Greg Jenner? That brings us to our nuance window. This is where Sophie and I sit quietly and brainstorm new noble names for ourselves for two minutes.
26:55 Speaker 06 Oh, yeah.
26:56 Greg Jenner? We need, I think, eight new names each, probably.
26:58 Speaker 06 Okay.
26:58 Greg Jenner? While Professor Yang Wen holds court and tells us something that we need to know about Empress Dowager Su Shi. And my stopwatch is ready. You have two minutes. Take it away, Professor Zhong.
27:08 Speaker 05 She has been wronged in some ways by historians for generations because she's a woman. And because of allegedly the things she did. If you look in the long run, if she wasn't there, China might have disappeared in 1862. So you can say that she helped pop up the Qing Dynasty for another four or five decades after the Second Opium War. That's number one. Number two, the reforms she stepped in to stop, Hundred Days Reform.
27:49 Speaker 05 If you look from today's perspective, it might be too early. China might not have been ready for it as a country because if China was not ready, it will cause chaos. Because the political reforms that the Guangxu Emperor wanted. She also has won saving grace.
28:12 Speaker 05 As historians have managed to mine further into the archives, we realised that the Guangxu Emperor, who wanted all those radical reform, her nephew Emperor, actually was in secret communication with the Japanese. He met with the full-time Japanese Prime Minister. There was recommendation from ranking Chinese intellectuals that Japan should steer China in 1898. That is something she could not accept. And that is something that today's Chinese would never accept.
28:51 Speaker 06 Yes.
28:52 Speaker 05 So that may redeem her.
28:55 Greg Jenner? Amazing. Thank you so much.
28:56 Speaker 06 Incredible.
28:57 Greg Jenner? I mean, really interesting.
28:58 Speaker 06 Oh, my God. I like, put him on an island.
29:02 Greg Jenner? I mean, it's a really interesting point, the what if. You know, I don't usually like what ifs with history because, you know, history is chaos and we have to imagine it. But if she wasn't there, the story of China might have been so radically different.
29:13 Speaker 05 Yeah. China needed a strong character.
29:16 Greg Jenner? Yeah, and she certainly was strong.
29:18 Speaker 05 Who kept things together.
29:20 Greg Jenner? I can see why you're on her side, yeah. I'm not sure I agree with her, the way she went about things, but, you know.
29:25 Speaker 06 I fully support, I would.
29:28 Speaker 06 If she has, you know, 100 fans, I'm one of them. If she has 10 fans, I'm one of them.
29:33 Greg Jenner? Wow.
29:33 Speaker 06 If she has 50, I've been poisoned by a bad cake.
29:37 Greg Jenner? And listener, if you want more brilliant biographies with Sophie Dhuca, check out our episodes on Benedetta Carlini, the saucy nun, Ramses the Great, another sort of big, powerful name, and of course, the Chevalier de Saint George, the great composer. And for more Chinese history, why not listen to our episodes on the history of Kung Fu, the Tong Dynasty, and the Terracotta Warriors, of course, all very interesting. If you enjoy the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds to hear new episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In history corner, we have the incredible Professor Yang Wen Zhong from the University of Manchester. Thank you, Yang Wen.
30:11 Speaker 05 Thank you for having me.
30:12 Greg Jenner? It's been an absolute pleasure. And in comedy corner, we have the superstar Sophie Dhuca. Thank you, Sophie.
30:16 Speaker 06 Thank you so much.
30:18 Greg Jenner? And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we raise another overlooked historical subject up through the ranks. But for now, I'm off to go and have a lie down. My producer's fed me a weird tasting cake before the recording and I feel a bit woozy. Bye.
30:30 Speaker 06 Bye.
30:41 Speaker 06 Hello, Alex von Tunselmann here with a brand new series of History's Heroes. People with purpose, brave ideas and the courage to stand alone. Including the little-known story of a famous author caught up in a horrific accident, which would require all his courage.
30:59 Speaker 00 Dickens remained in the river, helping the rescue, assisting the wounded. He didn't search out to be heroic, he didn't play on his heroism.
31:12 Speaker 06 Subscribe to History's Heroes on BBC Sounds.
31:17 Greg Jenner? In 1872, the Mari Celeste was found adrift in the Atlantic. Every person on board was gone, and none of them were ever seen again. Every Monday on Hidden History, Dr Harini Butt takes an unexplained event from history, just like that one, reads the evidence like a case file, and tells you what she thinks happened. No hedging. Start with the Mari Celeste episode for a look at one of history's most enduring maritime enigmas. Follow Hidden History with Dr Harini Butt wherever you get your podcasts.
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