Did I Get Ghosted or Is He Just Not That Into Me?

A young woman notices a pattern in her life of frequently being ghosted. And the last time this happened, it really stung. Not only did she lose a lover but she lost an important friend. Did this friend with benefits ghost her or did she miss something? For the month of January, Esther is offering 20% off to join her Office Hours on Apple Podcasts. It's a place to continue conversations on important topics like sexlessness, infidelity, or the perils of modern dating. It's also a place to follow up with couples and find out where their stories went. You'll also get an ad free version of all the episodes. Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected]. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Esther Perel?

  Hello and welcome to 2025, our eighth year of Where Should We Begin? In this new year, I know you will be trying new things, including listening to new podcasts. So whether you're new here or you haven't been here for a while, welcome to my office. Each week, I open the door and invite you to come in and listen in to couples and individuals searching for insight. This is a space to be heard, to get unstuck, and to feel empowered in your own relationships. You listen deeply to others and you see yourself. And even when the story is different from yours, you find something that you can relate

• 0:45Esther Perel?

  to and that can change your own life and relationships. I'm quite excited to be featured in Apple Podcasts' new beginnings campaign for the whole month of January. And for this month, I'm offering you 20% off the annual as well as the monthly subscriptions on Apple Podcasts. By joining my office hours subscription on Apple Podcasts, you'll get an ad-free version of all the sessions. A few of the other offerings on the subscription includes reaching out to colleagues and asking them to give me a critique of a session. How would they have done it differently so that we get a sense that there isn't just a one-size-fits-all?

• 1:31Esther Perel?

  Or something I'm very proud of is when we reach out to the couples, the follow-up sessions, the ones where I ask people a few weeks or months later to give me an update, what happened to them and how did the session help them or not? Those sessions are so important because people all the time ask, you know, what happened to them? So, okay, they saw you for one session, and then what? And now I have a way to share with you the then what. So join my office hours by clicking the subscribe button on the Where Should We Begin? show page. I hope to see you there and happy New Year.

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• 3:11Speaker 04

  I've experienced ghosting, not only with online dating experiences, but also within other relationships, friendships, or also people I've been dating within my circle of friends and people I've been knowing for a long time. And that makes it a lot more toxic and more complicated than online encounters. And I did follow your advice and also my therapist's advice of calling them out on it, trying to be calm but to stand up for yourself. Because one thing that happens, it's creating a sense of helplessness if these things are happening multiple times. For me, it's been like many, many times, countless.

• 3:56Speaker 04

  I don't even know how many. And so I've started doing that, and the response was sometimes really aggressive. And the new thing seems to be, "Hey, you're implementing your moral standards on me, and I'm not interested in that. And you're not allowed to tell me what you do and what is right and what is not." And that is coming from a very aggressive place within them. And I want... Yeah, I wonder if there is something really worrisome also going on.

• 4:37Speaker 04

  Very nice to meet you.

• 4:38Esther Perel?

  Pleasure, pleasure. You know, I, I only read a few things from what you wrote, but you said it's kind of a great opening. Berlin, worst city to be single.

• 4:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, kind of. It's what a lot of people say, actually.

• 4:56Esther Perel?

  Tell me more.

• 4:58Speaker 04

  Well, I don't know. Berlin is a great place. It's a very young city and with a lot of life and, and always new influences. But a lot of FOMO, there's always this new big thing or another better thing out there. Um, so people are a bit flaky or it's just difficult to build like really strong relationships in general, I would say. I've also lived in New York for two years, so also no dating there.

• 5:23Esther Perel?

  Okay, so let's do a cross-cultural analysis as experienced by you.

• 5:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 5:33Esther Perel?

  So start with the village, then go to New York, then go to Berlin.

• 5:37Speaker 04

  I can try to elaborate on that. I feel like there's a very big shift from my twenties to my thirties and how dating has evolved. I think that impact was even, even stronger than naturally the change of location. But I would say just in the village, when, when I was younger, you would always see each other and people would know each other. So it was not so easy to, like, if something would go wrong, people would eventually need to meet you again and maybe say something to you, whereas in the bigger cities, it's really anonymous. People can just disappear and it doesn't matter because there's no connection whatsoever most of the time.

• 6:21Speaker 04

  Um, but I think that, that makes a really big difference because people feel more reliable. Also, I feel like I've started as an adult in a dating culture that was. Less flaky, it was just more um, less quantity. Now, there's so, there's so, there are so many people to meet that I feel.

• 6:43Esther Perel?

  Less quantity because the village was smaller or because you didn't date on apps?

• 6:49Speaker 04

  Both, both, but especially because of the apps. I think the, the idea that there's always something bigger and better, like something better out there, I think has, has um, just changed how we date. Because why, why would you spend too much time on one person if there can be somebody else, you know? So that, I think it was slower and more, more respectful in many ways. So now I have the feeling that there are just some fundamental things missing in these sort of encounters. I feel oftentimes very hurt and not seen, talking about the ghosting that is really um, symbolic for me,

• 7:33Speaker 04

  kind of that we're losing empathy in our relationships. And I've seen this a lot, it has happened to me many times. And I think the last time it happened, something has shifted because it was with a friend who was also a lover. And um, after a seven years um, friendship. And I think that really hurt me because it was like, okay, like if there are even people really close to me doing these kind of things, I maybe just have to accept it as a new normal that is part of our society and I will have to, to, to start working with this um.

• 8:12Esther Perel?

  So let me ask you.

• 8:14Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 8:14Esther Perel?

  I hear in the village, if something ends, you still are gonna meet the person at the next party.

• 8:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:26Esther Perel?

  At the next wedding, at the next holiday. And so it's not because you have empathy. It's because you just know communal living requires that you can put aside certain grievances because you need to be accountable and you need to be able to be polite, civil. You don't have to like each other, you may not even talk to each other, but you need to be able to be in the same space and it's not done by empathy.

• 8:54Speaker 04

  No, that's true, yeah.

• 8:57Esther Perel?

  And then what you're saying is the flakiness I'm hearing is not just in dating. You have a feeling that something loosened in the depth of the ties, in the level of accountability or responsibility or respect. Loyalty maybe as well that people bring to their relationships. And you're giving the example of this friend lover who seems to have undone the relationship as if there never had been seven years

• 9:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly.

• 9:37Esther Perel?

  of closeness, connection, complicity, pleasure. And how can you kind of forget that whole thing and undo or ghost me as if we had just met yesterday?

• 9:54Speaker 04

  A hundred percent, everything, yes.

• 9:56Esther Perel?

  And what's missing?

• 9:58Speaker 04

  First, I felt really helpless. I was like, okay, he's making this decision. It's hurting me. I don't know what to do. And then I can at least articulate how I feel. That gives me my power back, so I don't feel so helpless. So I tried telling him after a while, you know, because he also announced that he wouldn't ghost me a couple of months before. So when he did.

• 10:26Esther Perel?

  What did he do? He just disappeared?

• 10:30Speaker 04

  Yes, for two months.

• 10:33Esther Perel?

  For two months?

• 10:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, and then I just said, hey, I was really sad that you just pulled out of this without telling me what's happening. Because I knew the relationship could end anytime. We weren't, it was like a friends with benefits situation. We didn't, the only thing we agreed on is to take care of each other. Um, and to talk things through. But yeah, then he did that and he responded, but he didn't say sorry or anything. He was just saying, this was all too much for me. And yeah, we will see each other at some point. And I was like, okay, um, thanks for telling me that you don't want to

• 11:18Speaker 04

  to see me again. And then I said, that felt kind of unfair a little bit that you didn't communicate that to me. And then I received a very long message. Uh, I felt it was a little bit aggressive also. He was saying, um, don't implement your moral standards on me. I don't need you to tell me what to do. I also don't need you to explain me how friends with benefits work. I did things how I did them. And on and on. And I was like in shock. Um, I didn't, I didn't know what to do with that experience. And then I tried again approaching him and saying, I don't know where this anger comes from.

• 11:58Esther Perel?

  This is all in text.

• 12:00Speaker 04

  It was, yeah, unfortunate. Well, voice message, text mix, unfortunately, because I felt he didn't want to to talk anymore. So I tried my best. And I was like, hey, um, sorry you're so angry, um, but it's really good to know how you feel. This is how the experience was for me and so on and on. Explained it. And then I said, hey, it's very important for me in a friendship that I can say how I feel. And if that is not the case, I don't know how we can continue being friends. Um. But I also ended the message with saying how important he was to me after such a long time and sharing so much. And he only responded, thank you, goodbye. And I never heard from him again.

• 12:43Speaker 04

  And, um, yeah, it really hurt me because I also lost a friend. Um, and, um, I tried my best, but it, yeah.

• 12:55Esther Perel?

  First of all, this is a big loss. Because, as you say, it was a double loss. And because there was no way to uncouple the benefits from the friendship. And to preserve the friendship and let go of the benefits. And when he said it was all too much, is it because he wanted something more stable? Or was it because he actually felt that he projected onto you, that you wanted more? Which one?

• 13:30Speaker 04

  Um, he said that I was looking for something that he couldn't give me. But somehow he didn't want to talk about it again. Or I don't know what was, because we did have wonderful conversations before. And, um, well, he was just out of a relationship. So he wasn't really ready. And I was, I guess, just enjoying the moment.

• 13:55Esther Perel?

  How long were your lovers?

• 13:58Speaker 04

  For half a year. And, um, but it was already the second time. So, yeah. It's just for me, it was, um, it has changed something. I think when other people did that to me that I didn't know as well, you're already used to it. But if it's somebody so close, it's hard. Yeah.

• 14:17Esther Perel?

  Hmm, of course it is.

• 14:29Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break. So stay with us and let's see where this goes.

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• 16:10Esther Perel?

  Tell me, what is it about this one that feels like it's piercing deep for you?

• 16:18Speaker 04

  Because there has been just a strong connection. It was not defined. It was maybe not enough to be a relationship. It was something in between, but I think we've been really supporting each other on many levels also. He's always been that person that really supported me and was just a really loving connection. But there was also always a little bit of a flirt going on. And I think on some level, I felt I needed to know what it is after such a long time. So it was good to know that it's not working. Because I wasn't clear if it's a friend or if it's more.

• 17:02Speaker 04

  It was this weird kind of connection.

• 17:06Esther Perel?

  But you lost a friend, you lost a peer, mentor.

• 17:11Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 17:12Esther Perel?

  You lost a lover. And you shared on many levels with him. That's a lot. That's a big loss.

• 17:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, I had the feeling some- something changed inside. All of a sudden, I was like, okay, I maybe. I have to accept that for some people, this is how they want to live. And that's what, what they.

• 17:33Esther Perel?

  He didn't ghost you. He didn't ghost you.

• 17:37Speaker 04

  No, he didn't?

• 17:40Esther Perel?

  He didn't ghost you. You each pushed each other to an edge.

• 17:45Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 17:47Esther Perel?

  First, he said, this is too much. I can't handle it. I need to take some space from you. I just ended a relationship and now I'm feeling like you are wanting to step in. Then you said, no, but after what we have experienced together, I still expect from you to show up and to be more communicative, to which he says, please don't make me feel guilty on top of everything now.

• 18:17Esther Perel?

  To which you say, well, if I can't tell you how I feel,

• 18:22Esther Perel?

  then I prefer not to have a relationship. To which he then says, well, then thank you.

• 18:30Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 18:33Esther Perel?

  I hear it so much more as a kind of real miscommunication.

• 18:39Speaker 04

  Maybe.

• 18:40Esther Perel?

  In which each person made a bunch of assumptions about what the other one was saying and not saying. And the confusion was between what you thought was expressing how you feel and what he experienced as a good dose of judgment and guilt.

• 19:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, I didn't want him to feel that, though.

• 19:08Esther Perel?

  No, that's why I'm saying it's a, to me, I see this as a crossing of wires and a kind of a sequence of misunderstandings. And no one said, first of all, let's not do this on the phone. Let's meet and just talk. We have, we have a seven-year relationship. This may be our first, is this our first conflict? Or we've had others?

• 19:36Speaker 04

  No, this is the first one.

• 19:37Esther Perel?

  Okay, we are in our first conflict. We're not gonna end our friendship because of that. So I said to you that I need to be able to talk to you, but maybe what I need to say to you is that I would love to hear you. Because I missed something. And hopefully, you may wanna do the same, and we can both hear each other.

• 20:04Esther Perel?

  But hear each other with curiosity, with real desire to understand.

• 20:10Esther Perel?

  You know what would have been ghosting? Is if you had, this may be my criteria, I may be totally, you know, off, is that you would have written him this whole long thing, and he would not have answered. He would just have left it in suspension, hanging.

• 20:25Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, that was the case, actually. I mean, it was because of a message of mine that he retreated. So that left me with a question mark. But absolutely, I mean, I could have maybe approached it a bit calmer and...

• 20:42Esther Perel?

  It's not over, it's not over.

• 20:45Speaker 04

  You think so?

• 20:46Esther Perel?

  I have no idea, but I think that friendships are, friendships go through their trials and tribulations. And sometimes, you write to someone, you say, you know, I'm sitting with this thing and it just doesn't feel right. We have such a rich, seven-year friendship, and is that really what we wanna do, is to let it drop? So whatever I may have done that contributes to the mess we're sitting in, I wanna really take responsibility for that. And this is an invitation. I don't like the way we ended. I don't think that it does justice to the depth of what we have had together, as friends, as collaborators.

• 21:33Esther Perel?

  If you're open to that, I would love for us to just meet, even if it's for a post-mortem. And if not, then maybe it's just to understand that our friendship will have gone through its first real conflict. And if you say to me, "I'm so past this, I have zero interest," it'll make me very sad, but at least I will be really clear.

• 21:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, would be really helpful. Because these connections are rare, they don't exist so often. I didn't want him to feel judged or pushed. I tried to explain that and I was like, "No, not at all. I didn't want to put anything on you that you don't want, not at all." And I also had a feeling we were talking through things. That's why I was so surprised that all of a sudden he felt like he couldn't talk to me anymore.

• 22:27Esther Perel?

  But there was a subtext. And the subtext was that your friendship and the benefits, they were not on the same ground that they had been before. Because he ended his relationship.

• 22:45Esther Perel?

  And that, you know, the relationship before then was, there were three people. And the balance between the two of you was inseparable from the dynamic between him and the other person.

• 23:01Speaker 04

  But we didn't have an affair while he was in a relationship?

• 23:04Esther Perel?

  No, no, no, doesn't matter.

• 23:06Speaker 04

  Doesn't matter?

• 23:07Esther Perel?

  No.

• 23:08Speaker 04

  Okay, because I was still there as a friend.

• 23:11Esther Perel?

  And because the expectations shift, because the sense of possibility changes, because the dreams get activated. Because this friendship with benefit, living in parallel with another romantic relationship is not the same as this friendship with benefit when it's on its own and there is no obstacles, no impediments, nothing standing in the way in between. And so new thoughts emerge. What would it be? Could it be? Is that a possibility? What do we really feel? Those questions, they don't emerge like this

• 23:55Esther Perel?

  when they are kept underground by another relationship.

• 24:02Esther Perel?

  Because you were friends who had actually a fight of lovers.

• 24:09Speaker 04

  So you mean that while he was in a relationship, there was still this energy between us? That's what you refer to, right?

• 24:16Esther Perel?

  Yes, but it's contained.

• 24:18Speaker 04

  It was contained, yeah, that's true.

• 24:20Esther Perel?

  The triad, so to speak, creates a balance.

• 24:27Esther Perel?

  Who relies on what for whom? Who can ask what? What expectations are explicit? And what expectations remain implicit?

• 24:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, and since we only became lovers, then later, then all of a sudden, everything was possible. And that changed our friendship also.

• 24:49Esther Perel?

  That's right.

• 24:50Speaker 04

  That's true. That's true. And I guess it was a process for both of us, finding out what is this? And yeah, maybe I have to talk to him again. It's just maybe I was too stubborn also, like in that moment where I was like, whoa, what is this message? And you get triggered also. And I think it's just so bad also, these text messages. It's so bad.

• 25:16Esther Perel?

  I mean, text messages certainly don't allow for much nuance. People interpret the tones. They often misinterpret the tones, actually. Especially when it's a highly reactive series of messages. And each one was more reactive to the next. You went at it very, very fast, and it unraveled in five texts. It's like seven years unravel in five texts. So at some point, if it matters, you just say, maybe we are not meant to be lovers, but we certainly had a beautiful friendship. And it doesn't happen every day. It's a thing we really need to treasure. So it's not a letter where you hold each other responsible for whatever happened.

• 26:01Esther Perel?

  It's a place where you talk about what is precious and what you cherish in your friendship.

• 26:11Esther Perel?

  Like first you need to reconnect, then you can talk about the things that have disconnected you.

• 26:19Speaker 04

  Yeah. It's not gonna be easy. I feel it's so, so hard to overcome your inner, I don't know, the pain or the feelings.

• 26:29Esther Perel?

  Is it like, why shall I? I didn't create this? He's the one who cut it off?

• 26:34Speaker 04

  A little bit.

• 26:37Speaker 04

  It's true.

• 26:41Esther Perel?

  And I'm not gonna go do what Perel says and then be, find myself completely ridiculous.

• 26:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, what I don't like is this, like, you start judging the other person too much and you start retreating, and I don't like that. I want to be in touch and, um, open.

• 27:01Speaker 04

  So maybe I should try that.

• 27:03Esther Perel?

  There's no should here. This is...

• 27:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:07Esther Perel?

  You can say, I'm just, I'm just letting it unravel. It'll fizzle, it'll disappear. It's, it leaves my life. It becomes a memory. Or you say, I wanna see what happens. Stakes are low.

• 27:24Esther Perel?

  We're not in touch now, we may not be in touch later, but at least I feel like I will have tried according to my own priorities, values, character.

• 27:38Esther Perel?

  Do not do it because we're talking about it.

• 27:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, no, it has to come.

• 27:42Esther Perel?

  It's, it's either you say, this thing sits on me, gnaws at me, it just doesn't feel good, it's unfinished.

• 27:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:49Esther Perel?

  So, and I wanna finish. At least it'll go one way or another, but at least I wanna, I want clarity and I want closure.

• 27:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 28:04Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.

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• 29:18Speaker 02

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  Touche. Priceline.

• 29:47Esther Perel?

  Interestingly, I'm thinking about this less about ghosting and more about repair. Oh.

• 29:58Esther Perel?

  How do we repair breaches in a relationship?

• 30:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, trying to be empathetic and understand the other, where the other person is coming from. And offering them a possibility to heal things also, like, and to explain themselves.

• 30:16Esther Perel?

  And to ourselves.

• 30:18Speaker 04

  And to ourselves.

• 30:19Esther Perel?

  And to ourselves. Do you know if he thinks of you? Do you wonder? Do you have shared friends? Do you have common circles?

• 30:28Speaker 04

  We have common circles. I haven't asked them, but I do wonder a lot, actually, how he felt about this. And first, I had a feeling he might check in with me in a couple of months. I had, I had that feeling that might happen, but it didn't. I was like, oops, this is probably done.

• 30:51Esther Perel?

  And what if you checked with him?

• 30:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, I could, but I, it was always me approaching him, so it just feels wrong.

• 31:00Esther Perel?

  Yep.

• 31:01Speaker 04

  Because I, I established a conversation several times, so I'm like, okay.

• 31:06Esther Perel?

  Okay, all right. Sometimes, there is no closure.

• 31:13Esther Perel?

  And I don't really wanna go and put the effort in in closing or in clarifying. I don't wanna invest anything in it. I let it float. I think of it on occasion. It'll probably come back if something else happens in my life.

• 31:31Esther Perel?

  But I've been the one all along. I'm not interested to once again be the person to reach out. It's, this is an exercise in getting to know you, not him.

• 31:47Speaker 04

  I think my need to end things in a good Way or like my hope that there is always like not a happy ending, but at least a respectful or a loving ending.

• 31:59Esther Perel?

  Where did you learn that?

• 32:01Speaker 04

  Well, I had a feeling how I grew up, there was not so much space for conversation or like hearing each other. I think it's also cultural. When I moved to New York, um, I was like, oh, my God, like, everyone is talking about their feelings. This is, I was like, wow. And like, everyone had things to to share about going to therapy and what what they're working on. I was like, wow, this is so different where I'm from. And things have changed by now. I think we're more more aware. But um, when I, when I was a child or a teenager, that was not usual, that you would be so open about what moves you.

• 32:46Speaker 04

  And that was not easy also because you felt embarrassed sharing things. Um, so I think growing up in that environment, um, and then experiencing it differently. I was like, OK, I I want more of this. This is nice, but.

• 33:02Esther Perel?

  And from New York to Berlin?

• 33:04Speaker 04

  From New York to Berlin, um, but Berlin is not Germany. It's um, its own world and there are so many cultures uh, present and. But what I think is different, it's harder to build that trust with people to actually go so deep into conversations. And and I feel it's also harder a little bit to build community. But I mean, that might all might also depend a little bit on your situation. But um, I did experience it here also, and I have it now, which is really beautiful. But it's been work, so I had to to find the.

• 33:42Esther Perel?

  And when you say work, you mean what?

• 33:47Speaker 04

  Looking at my relationships and seeing which ones are healthy and which ones are not. And eventually having some conversations and seeing if you can move forward or not. But eventually I had to let go of some people, which was not easy. I'm also talking about friends, like mostly. That was hard to to let some people go, but then I was like, okay, well, maybe there was also a certain time that we were supposed to share and now we've just grown apart. But I often think of them, you know?

• 34:20Speaker 04

  It's very hard.

• 34:21Esther Perel?

  So it's very interesting because part of what happens is you come to a new place. I came to New York as well as a new place and you meet all kinds of new people and they become your first friends of the arrival phase. And then you meet new people and of all the people you meet, one or two stay. And then new arrive and then slowly you build the community that will become the social circle you live in. And in passing, in between, if you really look, you probably ghosted a few.

• 35:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, we are doing.

• 35:01Esther Perel?

  You know, you ghosted a few without calling it ghosting.

• 35:04Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 35:05Esther Perel?

  I stopped inviting these people. They asked me to meet. It takes a long time to meet and in the end it kind of never really happened. I'm available for others. Most of the time, not a real conversation that says, you know, we have done what we were supposed to do. It speaks for itself as part of the lack of tending, as part of the letting it just kind of fizzle. And I was thinking about the many, many ways that we often ghost, but without without naming it like that, because if I spoke with some of these other people, they may say, she was too busy.

• 35:46Esther Perel?

  She, you know, she stopped answering, you know, we were not that important for her anymore. And I may have said the same thing about other people. There's this whole set of statements that speak to the unraveling of the ties in a friendship. And then if you have a friendship with benefits, which lives on different codes. Yeah, and the fascinating thing is you say, the one thing we said we would do is we would take care of each other and we would communicate. She says, of course, the one thing we didn't do. And it's paying the price of the friendship for the lack of clarity in the benefits.

• 36:31Esther Perel?

  And that's part of why I said to you,

• 36:36Esther Perel?

  is this a story of ghosting? Is this the story of repair? If one wants to? What does it mean? What does it take to do that?

• 36:48Esther Perel?

  How do we feel about being the pursuer that says, this matters to me, therefore I'm the one who calls, rather than why should it always be me? If it's always me, then obviously it matters to me more than to him and I've done this before and I'm not doing this again.

• 37:04Esther Perel?

  We have ten conversations in our head before we have a conversation with the person we should be having a conversation with.

• 37:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 37:14Esther Perel?

  And we are all very, I mean, not all, but we are sensitive to rejection. We track it. We don't like it. It hurts. It makes us feel small. It makes us feel less valued, less important. And because of some of the blurring of the boundaries today between one relationship and another, we find ourselves with a number of unfinished, unfinished what?

• 37:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, unfinished stories. It's very interesting what you've been saying. I wonder if it's always been a little bit like this, if ghosting has always been there in different forms. We have always made decisions, right? And who we want to continue being friends with and who not.

• 38:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, I guess it's just part of life to you have to let go people sometimes. And and also like just find out where your boundaries are. What are you willing to invest in in a relationship, I guess. And I'm aware that like a friends with benefits situation is a complicated thing. And it could go either way. Um, I knew it was a risk, so.

• 38:29Esther Perel?

  Yes, it is a piece of the question for me a little bit. It doesn't change how bad it feels and how hurt we can be and how sad it can make us, you know. But I remember running to the mailbox when I had a new friend in mind or no a new encounter and I'd run to the mailbox and there would be letters. And then over time, sometimes the letters began to be every three weeks. And then every six weeks, and then basically there was no letter.

• 39:00Esther Perel?

  So the story of fizzling out, the story of Wendy not responding anymore. Then came the phone, then came the answering machine. Then came, you know, the the email, then came the text. So what has changed is the speed with which we could communicate. And also, therefore, the speech with which we could instantly interrupt the communication. It's from one minute to the next. It's not three weeks have passed and I'm noticing that I probably shouldn't continue run to the mailbox.

• 39:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, maybe it's not helpful to just blame ghosting and technology all the time. Maybe it's it's about finding new ways of keeping conversation up. I don't know.

• 39:52Esther Perel?

  I mean, the principle of repair stays the same. It's one in which the relationship is put in the center. And two people each acknowledge what they have done that may have put the relationship at risk. If they point finger at the other, whether it's in a mail, in person, on the phone or on a text, it's the same strategy, it will backfire.

• 40:28Esther Perel?

  It's, I care about the relationship. I care about our friendship and I care about us.

• 40:36Esther Perel?

  And then you continue about what I may have done that can jeopardize it, or that wasn't smart, or that wasn't caring, kind to the friendship. So it's you and I having a conversation about it and valuing it and preserving it, rather than you and I telling each other what the other one has done wrong.

• 41:05Esther Perel?

  It's a we.

• 41:08Esther Perel?

  It's we have had, we have been, we have been there for each other. We have supported each other. The way you believe in me and in what I do has been so important. You want people who understand where you came from, but you also want people who support who you are becoming. And he was one of those.

• 41:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's so true, yeah. He was very supportive in that.

• 41:32Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 41:33Speaker 04

  And he saw the light and what was possible. That's really true.

• 41:38Esther Perel?

  And that's friendship plus benefits of a different kind of benefits.

• 41:44Speaker 04

  On so many levels, yeah.

• 41:46Esther Perel?

  Yeah. Those who believe in us and see something that we don't yet see, those who support us in our endeavors, in our ambitions, that whole thing is a whole other layer of benefits.

• 41:59Esther Perel?

  And were you that for him too?

• 42:03Speaker 04

  I think so. I tried to be. I took an effort in that, yeah.

• 42:10Esther Perel?

  So if you ever reach out to him, it's not because you're the one initiating, running after him. Maybe you're just simply better at it.

• 42:21Esther Perel?

  But it's not like you bear more responsibility, or you're more guilty, or you owe a bigger apology. It's just simply, this matters to me, and therefore I'm gonna do what I care about.

• 42:34Esther Perel?

  If I succeed, I succeed. If I don't, so be it. But it's from that place.

• 42:42Speaker 04

  Healing would feel amazing, if I could heal this and repair this. Because he is important, and I guess he still is. So, thank you.

• 42:55Esther Perel?

  You're welcome.

• 43:08Speaker 04

  This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call, recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther that could be answered in a 40- or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message, and Esther might just call you. Send your question to [email protected]. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne Hatton. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin

• 43:53Speaker 04

  are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

• 44:04Speaker 06

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