Pod Insights Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel Are We Just Not Sexually Compatible? About this episode This week, a caller wonders if she’s sexually compatible with her partner or if they’ve just become too adherent to their sexual patterns. Esther helps her untangle the traumatic pieces from her past before her current relationship that are informing the anxiety she feels when her partner initiates sex. This episode contains references to a sexual assault. Please take care listening.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Esther Perel? En la siguiente sesión, discutiremos el asalto sexual. Y quiero que sepan esto antes de escuchar.
0:16 Speaker 01 Mi compañero y yo hemos estado juntos por unos cuatro años ahora. Y ha sido el mejor compañero que podría haber pedido. Pero nuestro dilema es sexualmente... Si él quiere intentar y me encender, quiero que me dé un pedazo de agua hasta que me esté desesperadamente agarrando la botella para beber un montón de agua. Y lo que es más importante, quiero ese sentimiento poderoso de nuevo que tuve con los compañeros pasados. Pero nuestra experiencia sexual desde que comenzamos a ver a la gente
0:58 Speaker 01 es como que me estoy recibiendo un torrente de agua que me está alimentando, como que está tratando de me encender. Y luego ese torrente de agua se vuelve, ya sabes, tanto agua que no puedo respirar. Y luego también con la presión adicional de beber el agua. Su persistencia es como lo que nos unimos inicialmente. Pero sexualmente, simplemente no es una encendida para mí. Y he discutido esto con él y su respuesta ha sido, "Ya sabes, lo que quiero es hacer lo que te va a encender y lo haremos mientras sea necesario. Pero cuando intentamos que me abandone completamente
1:42 Speaker 01 o me toque sin la presión de pedirme sexo", hemos sido capaces de hacer eso por una o una semana o una semana y media antes que mi compañero se vuelva frío y se vaya de mi. Entonces simplemente me entrego para molestarlo. Y realmente odio el sentimiento de dar en ti por obligación en lugar de porque realmente quiero. Cuanto más se avance nuestro relacionamiento o se avance, más me pregunto a mí misma, ¿estamos demasiado sexualmente incompatibles?
2:23 Speaker 01 Or am I just too rigid in my sexual script? And what in my mind and what has worked in the past? That turns me on? Am I just too like adherent to that?
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4:25 Esther Perel? So I think what I would like to ask you, just for me to understand better, is two things. Are you saying I had a way of getting turned on that was about being in charge, pursuing someone who was less interested? And by turning them on, it ignited me? So that's a certain script, erotic script that I have that I know has often worked well for me. Being in the reverse position now, I don't like it. And then I want to understand more about that. And then the second question is,
5:09 Esther Perel? he seems to say to you, "I want to do things that you enjoy. My goal is not just to impose something on you and for you to just comply." So in that sense, you have a good understanding and a good vibe. But when he does change his tune and he gives you the droplets, he starts to get anxious that the droplets will never amount to more than droplets?
5:38 Speaker 04 Yes, to both of the questions.
5:42 Esther Perel? Let's go in there a little bit. So because your question about are we just incompatible? I don't think this is about an incompatibility of... I mean, you have different sexual scripts. You have different turn-ons. You have different rhythms. But that is not what makes it incompatible. Sometimes, you know, two musicians can play very differently, but it's about how they attune to each other. The compatibility is an attunement and a liking. Definitely, a liking and preferences go in there. But primarily, it's how do we find a groove that allows us to play together, to improvise together, even though we may have completely different ways of playing? That doesn't mean that there is not sometimes real incompatibility.
6:27 Esther Perel? But that's not... As a starting point, it's not what I am hearing. Tell me more about... Because you said one other thing, that his insistence actually is what brought us together. So there's different experiences that you have had with his insistence, forcefulness, initiative.
6:48 Esther Perel? What other words would you use?
6:50 Speaker 04 Yeah, persistence, like he's the one pursuing.
6:54 Esther Perel? Is he your age? Is he older, younger?
6:57 Speaker 04 He's a little bit older than me. He's about four years older than me.
7:00 Esther Perel? Okay, mm-hmm.
7:01 Speaker 04 And even then, I wasn't really like into it. I don't like, I like to be the pursuer. Usually, and he is very much, he also likes to be the pursuer.
7:15 Esther Perel? Mm-hmm.
7:16 Speaker 04 And um.
7:17 Esther Perel? When I am the pursuer, what is it about it?
7:23 Speaker 04 The power of it, like I feel powerful. I feel like I'm doing something that not only pleases me, but pleases my partner.
7:33 Esther Perel? But also, is, would it be the case to say, when I'm in charge, I know that I do what I want?
7:42 Speaker 04 Yes.
7:43 Esther Perel? When you are in charge, I'm grappling with doing what you want.
7:48 Speaker 04 Yes.
7:49 Esther Perel? And so doing what I want starts by saying no.
7:53 Speaker 04 Yeah.
7:54 Esther Perel? Okay, alright.
7:56 Speaker 04 That's like the dynamic that we have currently.
8:00 Esther Perel? This is not about incompatibility. That's what I was trying to say. If I have to follow you, and I have to subject myself to your will, then I end up doing what you want, and I have a loss of autonomy, and that comes with a loss of desire.
8:16 Speaker 04 Yeah, completely.
8:18 Esther Perel? And so what happens when it gets reversed? What happens to him when you basically take his hand and you say, here's how we're gonna do this? And you guide him in a slow and as deliberate a way.
8:34 Esther Perel? As you want, but he's with a woman who is owning her desires. I mean, that's. That in itself can be a real turn on as well.
8:43 Speaker 04 When I initiate and I'm the one sort of like in the control seat or in the driver's seat, it works.
8:50 Esther Perel? Works means what?
8:52 Speaker 04 So, he is into it too, like he gets hard and we have sex. And it's more enjoyable, I think. It all, because it's enjoyable to me, it's more enjoyable to him too. And while we've talked about it, he said like, it was a lot, it was a different experience when I'm in the driver's seat. Versus when he is.
9:17 Esther Perel? The driver's seat has to do with who initiates, with the rhythm, with the. Power dynamic with what?
9:28 Speaker 04 With the who initiates and the rhythm of it. Usually I prefer it to be slower, like more drawn out, like I need it to be. I need to fantasize and like for it to be slower and and stuff like that. And so. When I am control of the pace of it and when I initiate, it feels better to me. And I'm more into it and more like reactive and.
9:57 Esther Perel? And the slow is about just the beat, the rhythm? Or the slow is about the lack of deliberateness? Slow allows you not to know instantly what this is supposed to be. And so it can be more emerging and it kind of takes you rather than you know exactly what you're doing.
10:21 Speaker 04 Yeah, the slowness allows me to like slip into a different headspace. And then it just, like I'm doing kind of whatever I feel like in that moment. I'm not really. Like I'm gonna do, I'm gonna kiss him and then I'm gonna like go down on him and then we're gonna have sex. It's, there's no like. Order to anything.
10:42 Esther Perel? So what happens when you try to say to him without words even, but when you change the beat? If he starts, can you still adjust the beat? Or is it, the gear is set and off we go?
11:00 Speaker 04 I don't think I've ever tried to like slow it down when he's initiated.
11:05 Esther Perel? Okay. Why not?
11:08 Speaker 04 I think because like when he initiates, it feels like my body tenses and my danger signals. Start to go off. And then at that point, I'm not even like in an erotic mind. I'm like. Survival mode.
11:25 Esther Perel? In a protective mind.
11:27 Speaker 04 Yeah.
11:28 Esther Perel? Tell me more.
11:30 Speaker 04 I have a history of sexual trauma.
11:36 Speaker 04 Um, that. Really affects like my mind. I can rationalize it, but my body still.
11:47 Speaker 04 Feels it.
11:49 Speaker 04 So, like in my mind, I can tell myself. I'm safe, I'm not with that person. This is a different person. I'm okay, like it's fine. When I go into that road and I'm telling myself like I'm safe, I'm okay. Letting it happen, like letting him touch me. Um, it takes a little bit for me to relax and then to be able to slip into my erotic mind. I don't think I've verbalized it in the moment, like I need time. It's always been. Like I'm telling myself in my own head, but I'm not saying it out loud.
12:29 Speaker 04 And the time that I need for my body to let go. Isn't fast enough to where he likes, like for his tempo.
12:39 Esther Perel? Does he know this?
12:42 Speaker 04 He knows about the assault. Yes.
12:44 Esther Perel? But does he know how there's something about his being in charge? That brings back the memory of being overpowered, of doing something unwanted.
12:58 Esther Perel? It's anything but erotic. It's about violence, not about sex.
13:04 Speaker 04 Yeah.
13:04 Esther Perel? And so you need to give yourself signals to tell you, I'm not in danger. This is about pleasure and about connection. But it takes a moment. When you're in charge, it's faster, it's easier, because you learned that it's a beautiful thing you did. You turned it upside down. You were able to connect erotically with yourself by flipping the power dynamic. It's great. But when he takes charge, that's not so easy for you to do. And so it needs cues that you give yourself, to yourself, to your body, to your sensations. And that's not just, I need time because I like it slower.
13:48 Esther Perel? It actually has very little to do with slower, because when you're in charge, it can be very fast. There's something in the switch of the power dynamic and in the I want versus you want and I have to do what you want. And I have no say.
14:06 Esther Perel? I have no sovereignty, I have no autonomy, and therefore, of course, I have no desire. I can tap into my desire when I am in charge, because when I'm in charge, I'm not just in charge, but I'm in touch with my wanting. And my wanting is my freedom. Your wanting is my prison.
14:26 Speaker 04 Yeah. I don't think I've ever articulated it like that to him.
14:32 Esther Perel? Mm hmm. And to yourself?
14:36 Speaker 04 Very recently, like within the last couple of days. Like, I've come to the realization that him coming on to me feels like an obligation. And it reminds me of the past.
14:51 Esther Perel? More, it's less, it's of an obligation, but it's also, there's something assaultive about it.
14:57 Speaker 04 Yes.
14:58 Esther Perel? And the reassuring yourself that this is safe and I'm here with my boyfriend is in order to diminish the assaultiveness to something that is more caring. I mean, he loves you, he wants you.
15:14 Speaker 04 Yeah.
15:16 Esther Perel? What happened two days ago?
15:19 Speaker 04 I've just been thinking about my submission and like just been thinking about it and really like checking in with myself and feeling how my body reacts to what I'm thinking. And I felt, like recently I felt an immense amount of like relief, like I I'm like this is what it is.
15:45 Esther Perel? Um, um huh, um huh. How long ago was it?
15:51 Speaker 04 Years ago. It's been like maybe ten to fifteen. Cause I I've been assaulted at different periods of my life and so
16:06 Speaker 04 but the last time was about fifteen years ago.
16:09 Esther Perel? Um huh, um huh. Do you think he would understand? I would love for him to be here with you, by the way.
16:16 Speaker 04 I know, yeah.
16:17 Esther Perel? Does he know you're here?
16:18 Speaker 04 He does, um. This has been an issue for like years now and so we've tried different things and I've tried different things on my own. I think when I submitted it initially, I was feeling like this is my problem to solve.
16:35 Esther Perel? Um, I mean, I wouldn't use that that verb, but in in a beautiful way you actually solved it. You found a way to connect to your erotic self by flipping the dynamic. But something happens to you that is unwanted. When he comes on, and especially when he comes on, what you call fast is also forceful somewhat. Doesn't leave you much room for negotiation. It feels that that turns it into an obligation. You know, and it's very fast and subtle and physical. This is not stuff people articulate in words.
17:16 Esther Perel? It's one hand this way versus that way. And that instantly triggers you, to use an over word word, but here it actually fits and and it brings back. You know, submission is no longer pleasurable.
17:33 Esther Perel? It becomes coercive. It becomes reminiscent and there is nothing of a turn on there.
17:42 Esther Perel? And so the question is, this is not, I like it slow and I like the water droplets. The water droplets are in the service of something. And at this point, he may think it's a matter of, I like it this way, she likes it that way. That's not what this is about. This is not about preferences here. This is about how you stay connected to your pleasure and permission and sexuality versus being sucked into a trauma vortex.
18:11 Speaker 04 I don't think I've said it that way to him. Like, when I realized what was happening for myself, I didn't say anything to him.
18:24 Esther Perel? Well, that's what happened two days ago or that's you knew before?
18:29 Speaker 04 No, not before, two days ago.
18:31 Esther Perel? I know, I'm glad we talked today.
18:35 Esther Perel? You know, because it takes a moment.
18:39 Esther Perel? Part of how you say it to him and how he hears it and receives it will be a very central part of your erotic intimacy. Because you're with a good guy who wants you to feel good. And if he understands why he needs to do certain things differently, it'll be an act of love. But you didn't understand it and you didn't necessarily connect the dots. And neither, of course, has he right now. But he will.
19:15 Speaker 04 He's a good guy and he loves me and wants for this to be a mutual thing.
19:23 Esther Perel? In order for us to connect well sexually, we have to create little practices, rituals, scripts that allow me to bypass a certain kind of neuroplasticity, you know? A kind of trigger points. So that I can remember, that I can stay in the sexual zone and not veer into the trauma zone.
19:52 Speaker 04 Yeah.
20:00 Esther Perel? We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.
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21:53 Esther Perel? Welcome to the Tiger fam.
22:00 Esther Perel? We just started a new year, and that often comes along with starting new things, including listening to new podcasts. So if you're new here or you haven't been with me for a while, welcome back to my office. I'm excited to be featured in Apple Podcasts' new beginnings campaign. And for the whole month of January, I'm offering you 20% off the annual and monthly subscriptions on Apple Podcasts. By joining my subscription on Apple Podcasts, you'll get an ad-free version of each session, and you will have access to my new Apple channel. So let me tell you about that, because here we are, eight years later, with a huge, robust archive of episodes.
22:45 Esther Perel? So one channel is the classics, one channel are the clinical conversations, one is for the special guests that I have hosted, and one is for all of us who were curious about the long-term update about the couples that we have seen. What happened to them? Two, three years later, what happened to these people? So I've organized it thematically. I've organized it so it's less unwieldy, so that when you have a concern, you can go straight to what interests you. So things are gonna look better and a little different. So join me on my office hours on Apple Podcast subscription for 20% off by clicking the subscribe button
23:29 Esther Perel? on the "Where Should We Begin?" show page. See you there, and thank you.
23:38 Speaker 04 I have asked him for us to take sort of like sex off of the table for now, but still be intimate, like still be kissing and touching and cuddling without a pressure of sex.
23:56 Esther Perel? And?
23:57 Speaker 04 And it sort of became like... He was okay with it. He said, "Yeah, that's what he... Like, if that's what it takes, then yes." But he also has sexual needs, and I don't know how long it's gonna take for me to feel...
24:23 Speaker 04 Like safe with him being in the driver's seat. I don't know, I I suggested maybe we open the relationship on his part. So that he can have his sexual needs, like the physical act of sex, taken care of for him. Um, while we work on this. And we're kind of, that's where we've paused.
24:51 Esther Perel? But that's all without understanding why and what for. That was more kind of a response to the symptoms. Rather than a response to the causes. So, everything changes once you put it in context. Maybe you'll discover a play together, a fantasy together in which. You're in charge of his getting in charge. You drive the driver. Or this is for the two of you to be sexually creative together in a way that is healing.
25:33 Speaker 04 That's really in a different perspective than even where I was like thinking.
25:42 Speaker 04 Cause I even in my own mind or like my own realization was like. His touches were creating a sense of like my danger signal was going. And so I needed, like my focus was I needed to start to get. Used to and feel safe with his touches, with him being in the driver's seat.
26:05 Esther Perel? Right, for example, tell me something he does that instantly tenses you.
26:15 Speaker 04 It's only when he's touching like my breasts or my like vulva.
26:19 Esther Perel? Uh huh. So imagine that you take the hand while he's on you, you take his hand. And you actually lift it. You say, let me. And then you bring it gradually to your neck, to your shoulder, to your arm. And slowly, if you want to, you bring it to your breast. But you're bringing his hand. That's driving the driver.
26:47 Esther Perel? It goes to your vulva, you take, you take his hand, you take his dick, whatever it is. And you guide it in a way that is comfortable, safe, and pleasurable to you.
27:03 Esther Perel? Maybe it first needs to go to your hair, to your head, to your ear, to your neck, to your nape. And only then slowly, maybe, but it's not because you remove yourself that you're gonna suddenly learn to tolerate it. It's because you play with touch and you make the touch become the touch that you can welcome. There's not one way, you know, but this is the one that I think of as we speak today. How does that sound to you? Can you visualize it when I describe it?
27:39 Speaker 04 I can. Yeah, like when you were describing it, I was like in my head picturing it. And like that feels, my body doesn't react the same way. Like it feels good.
27:53 Esther Perel? How so? How do you know when it's good? Cause you know when it's not.
28:00 Speaker 04 When it's good, I'm not even like.
28:06 Speaker 04 I'm very not in my mind, I'm very in my body. Like I'm feeling everything and it feels good. Like there's tingling and like warm and swirling and like, yeah.
28:23 Esther Perel? So imagine you take his hand and you don't even touch, you hover. Is what my friend Jaya calls energetic touch. You just hover over it. Very, very, very gently. Imagine that your hand is just touching the hair that's on your arm, but you can do it to him. The idea is you have, you go from energetic touch to affectionate touch, to sexual touch and to kinky touch. And you explore together which one of these four blueprints appeal to you. And sometimes you have more than one, sometimes you're a shapeshifter, sometimes you have a preference for one.
29:08 Esther Perel? But just the fact that you can even hover without putting his hand on you. But you feel the sensation of it as if it was touching you, but it doesn't because it's the energy that reaches you. And that he sees you lead him to give you exactly what you want at that moment.
29:32 Esther Perel? I see your eyes turning in front of me, so I'm gonna let you finish the imagery.
29:38 Speaker 04 Yeah, it's just like discovering or like playing with different things and seeing what feels good. And I'm in control of that by guiding him in it.
29:53 Esther Perel? You can do it with him too. You can go in both directions as well. You can go into your closet and take out scarves and brushes and feathers and silk and.
30:04 Esther Perel? All kinds of things and explore touch, literally. But the point is you will be driving to drive, or it doesn't matter what thing you use. It's that you'll be in in a dialogue with what makes you feel good. Rather than in an avoidance of what feels painful.
30:27 Speaker 04 Yeah, we played around with like. Sensate touching, like progressively touching each other. And that was really nice, but it was just like physical touch, not really like the le- different levels that you described.
30:43 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
30:44 Speaker 04 And, yeah, I would be like way more interested in playing around more with that.
30:51 Esther Perel? I like the way that you use the word play. Because it involves curiosity, exploration, discovery, novelty, and it's fun. I mean, usually you don't play and suffer. So, um, if you say, I wanna play differently with you, I wanna say to explore a whole bunch of things. I have a sense that he will follow you.
31:15 Speaker 04 Yeah, he's always been open to like trying new things with me and even suggesting things. So. Yeah, I have no doubt that he would be open.
31:27 Esther Perel? How did he respond to you when you told him about these words?
31:31 Speaker 04 I was like a while ago, it was like a couple of years into dating that I disclosed. And he was very warm, I remember. Like, I don't remember exactly what he said, but I remember how he made me feel.
31:44 Esther Perel? Hmm, that's more important, mm hmm.
31:47 Speaker 04 He made me feel very safe. And like. It was a relief.
31:53 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
31:54 Speaker 04 He accepts me.
31:57 Esther Perel? Did you worry about that?
32:02 Speaker 04 Sometimes. Not now, like I was more worried about that when we were first dating. But now I feel like I can tell him anything, like I feel very secure.
32:16 Esther Perel? That's why it seems to me that rather than trying to push this thing away or to just address the the symptoms and the discomforts together, to join into erotic healing. Sex can be deeply wounding and sex can be deeply healing.
32:39 Speaker 04 I've, yeah, I felt that very acutely, like that I've been deeply wounded, but I've also felt like a sense of healing, not completely, but I felt like I was taking my power back.
32:59 Esther Perel? Um hum.
33:00 Speaker 04 And that felt healing.
33:04 Esther Perel? Um, yep. With him or before him?
33:08 Speaker 04 Before him.
33:11 Esther Perel? In many ways, I often say there is no greater power than voluntary surrender, but the word voluntary is in capital letters.
33:22 Speaker 04 Yeah. I felt that in my chest, yeah.
33:27 Esther Perel? Your chest just touched my chest.
33:30 Speaker 04 Like willingly letting go.
33:32 Esther Perel? Um hum.
33:41 Esther Perel? We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.
33:53 Esther Perel? And you need to explain to him that in some way you need a different ritual of beginning, that when he comes on full force, that there's nothing wrong with it, but it is, it just sends the wrong messages. He's not doing anything off. It clicks in the wrong place. So.
34:17 Esther Perel? We need to adjust. Our sex is good. It could be better, but we're exploring, we're enjoying, we're connecting. If we start off right. And right means if we start off in a way that does not throw me back.
34:33 Speaker 04 That feels a lot better. Cause when we've had discussions about it in the past, like when he's gotten frustrated. When I don't respond the way that like I'm not in it. He has said. It takes you so, like you have to try so hard to respond to me. And that in that, it feels like he's. Taking on their, like he feels like there's something wrong with him.
35:03 Esther Perel? Yes, like it's a rejection, yes. You tell him it got nothing to do with you.
35:08 Speaker 04 I have.
35:09 Esther Perel? But not just as a statement. There's things that connect in my body differently. Because of what I experienced. If I get to bypass those. The coast is clear for me. Maybe, I don't know, you sent me a note before. That just says. I'm inviting you tonight, today, tomorrow, whatever. But something that doesn't feel like you're forcing yourself on me, that's all. That's all I can't take. It instantly obliterates me. And you're not doing anything wrong. But we need to adjust this so that.
35:52 Esther Perel? We don't derail and we can explore together six different ways. I'm just drawing a number, you know. A host of different ways for us to just bypass this. Maybe when you come on, I get up and then I go out for five minutes and then I come back. But this time I'm the one coming back and opening the door. And we've shifted the whole thing, but we're doing it in playful modes, not in. Argument ways, but in the, in this play that you described before, maybe. You call me by another name for a minute, maybe. We switch language for a minute, maybe, whatever it is. We put a piece of orange in each other's mouth, whatever we do, but something that doesn't.
36:36 Esther Perel? Put me in that position. Where I have to be alone with myself in my head to try to convince me that what you want is actually something nice. And then I, you know, cause none of this turns me on. And I feel guilty because I'm hurting you and I feel bad because I feel like what's wrong with me. And you feel bad because you feel like what's wrong with you. And this whole thing becomes one negative pool.
37:08 Speaker 04 It's just like, because we've had this issue for so long and we've always come to this point where we're not having sex and I reject and then he gets mad. It like it's all, it's so cyclical.
37:23 Esther Perel? Uh huh. And you hope he's not gonna think about it and he thinks about it and he says, why do you never think about it? And you say, why do you only think about it? Yeah. And he says, when are you ever gonna want? And you're gonna say, when are you ever gonna not think about that?
37:39 Speaker 04 Yeah.
37:39 Esther Perel? Do you have an idea of what you would like as an initiation ritual?
37:45 Speaker 04 I don't know.
37:47 Esther Perel? I mean, if, if you take a minute to imagine, what would be a different way that keeps you on the pleasure path?
37:56 Speaker 04 The only ways I can think about it is the way that worked for me in the past where I'm the one initiating. Like I'm the one initiating the kiss. Kissing his neck, going down and like going down on him and then like I'm holding his penis and like putting it inside, like I'm the one doing everything.
38:16 Esther Perel? Uh huh.
38:17 Speaker 04 And that's worked for me in the past. I've never explored driving the driver.
38:24 Esther Perel? You like the idea?
38:25 Speaker 04 I do, yeah. Like that's something I've never even thought to do or like I don't even know how, where to begin, but that's definitely like piqued my interest. Cause he likes to be in the driver's seat too, so it, it satisfies both of us, I think.
38:43 Esther Perel? Yes, because otherwise it, it feels too passive for him.
38:47 Speaker 04 Yeah.
38:48 Esther Perel? And it feels like it's on your terms whenever you want.
38:52 Speaker 04 Yeah.
38:52 Esther Perel? And um can he ever feel wanted? Can he ever want and you respond simply? Imagine he kisses you and you just take his face. And then you redo it. It's very subtle. It's subtle because you actually like the whole experience. What you don't like is when it instantly feels like you're being robbed of your free will.
39:18 Speaker 04 And I I want him to feel wanted too. And I want him to feel like he has permission to want me.
39:26 Esther Perel? Sometimes when you start to sing off key, you go on singing and it just never feels like you're in the right note. And sometimes we need somebody who corrects us at the beginning and says, ah, lower, higher, this way. And then you start a song again and you sing it flawlessly. Sometimes what happens in sex is that people get used to something and then it becomes their routine, even if they don't like it. And then at first, when they just met, they tried to adapt to the routine because they like the person and they don't want them to feel bad. And then as the years unfold and they get more comfortable in the relationship,
40:11 Esther Perel? they start to feel like shit, the routine doesn't suit me one bit. And we are at that moment where I'm saying, change the routine. There's a bit of adjustment that needs to happen here. It demands good communication. But you've got the trust, you've got the security, you've got the love.
40:34 Speaker 04 I feel a lot better. I feel less uh, not hopeless, but less tense about it.
40:42 Esther Perel? So you can go back and bring this to him and then let us know if you wanna be here together and we'll, because he has his story about it too. And then we'll see how we can attune this.
40:58 Speaker 04 Yeah, I feel he would be willing to participate.
41:02 Esther Perel? Great. I look forward to meeting him.
41:05 Speaker 04 Okay.
41:05 Esther Perel? Shall we stop here?
41:07 Speaker 04 Yeah, thank you.
41:08 Esther Perel? With this big smile on your face.
41:12 Speaker 04 Yeah, I just, I feel good.
41:19 Esther Perel? He did agree to come in and meet with me alone, which we did. And then we had a brief session, the three of us. So tune in next week to hear his story, the way he experiences their relationship. And then what happened when they both came together.
41:45 Speaker 07 This was an Astaire calling, a one-time intervention phone call, recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Astaire, could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message and Astaire might just call you. Send your question to [email protected] . Where Should We Begin with Astaire Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne Hahn. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider.
42:27 Speaker 07 And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Astaire Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.
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