Book Club Meets: Fertility pressures, medical racism, and hen parties, with Candice Carty-Williams

This month in the Happy Place Book Club, we’ve been reading Queenie Is Working On It, by Candice Carty-Williams. This is the much anticipated follow up to 2019’s Queenie.... and this time, Queenie Jenkins is questioning whether she wants kids, being priced out of the housing market in the place she grew up, and coping with horrible heartbreak too. In this chat with Fearne – live from the Happy Place Festival – Candice explains why she felt it was so important to write about big topics like medical racism and fertility pressures, as well as why for her characters come first and the plot is just a side quest. Also, we all think hen parties are the absolute worst, right?? Thank you to Trapeze for the use of the Queenie Is Working On It audiobook, narrated by Shvorne Marks. You can listen to the Queenie Is Working On It audiobook, from bookshop.org http://bookshop.org, here. https://uk.bookshop.org/a/12835/9781409199014 If you'd like to WIN a year's supply of audiobooks, enter our competition with bookshop.org http://bookshop.org here. https://uk.bookshop.org/lists/win-a-year-of-audiobooks-with-happy-place Competition closes on August 22nd. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Book Club Meets: Caro Claire Burke https://pod.fo/e/42730d Book Club Meets: Josie Lloyd and Emlyn Rees https://pod.fo/e/40a0df Book Club Meets: Imani Thompson https://pod.fo/e/4390eb Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  So I'm Dr Ashok and this is Tatiana.

• 0:03Fearne Cotton?

  Welcome to the Happy Place Book Club with me, Fern Cotton.

• 0:07Speaker 00

  Who looked bored out of her mind as he tapped efficiently onto the iPad screen.

• 0:11Fearne Cotton?

  Today, Queenie is Working on It by Candice Carty-Williams.

• 0:15Speaker 00

  I specifically booked for Dr Hussein. Yes, however, he's been pulled away today. Dr Ashok smiled. But you'll be in good hands with us. Tatiana will be observing, if that's okay. Well, she's already seen everything, so sure. I glanced sideways at Tatiana, who raised her eyebrows back at me. I unlocked my phone and opened the voice memos app, moving it over so that anything either of them said would be recorded. So you're here for the standard fertility checkup. Dr Ashok put the iPad down and snapped on a pair of blue latex gloves. Yes, I lied. Well, was it a lie? I was there for a checkup, yes.

• 1:01Speaker 00

  But technically, I was there because I was building a piece on the treatment of black women from attempt to conceive to labour by way of aftercare. And this was, allegedly, one of the highest rated clinics on Mum's Net. However, it was the clinic I'd seen most black women complain about. Great, well, if you can relax for me, we'll get going. He removed the probe from its holder and sheathed it with a condom specific to its purposes. Tatiana, if you wouldn't mind taking the specifics down for me. Ah, Passante, I smiled, nodding towards it like it was an old friend. I didn't realise they did condoms for anything other than penises. Yes, Dr Ashok blinked back at me.

• 1:46Speaker 00

  I hadn't found myself a fun one. They do.

• 1:52Fearne Cotton?

  This month, we've been reading Queenie is Working on It by Candice Carty-Williams. Yes, I love this book. This is the much anticipated follow-up to 2019's Queenie. This time, Queenie Jenkins is questioning whether she wants kids. She's being priced out of the housing market in the place she grew up, and she's coping with horrible heartbreak too. I love this book. It was just like perfect escapism. I was going through some stressful things in my life and this book was just a welcome break at night time. Or I had like a little mini break at one point and I read all morning. And why I love this book is not only is it wonderful to catch up with a much loved character, Queenie, because I loved the first book.

• 2:36Fearne Cotton?

  But the other characters are so real. I mentioned this in the chat. I kept thinking I was going to bump into some of them out and about. I can fully picture them all now. I could picture her flat, I could picture TFL man, like all of it was so clear to me. So it was so easy to dip in and out of this world that Candice has so cleverly created. I just loved it. Candice and I had this chat at the Happy Place Festival a couple of weeks ago, and we covered so many topics. Medical racism and fertility were big and important ones, as well as why, I'm sorry, but hen parties are the absolute pits.

• 3:15Speaker 02

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• 3:45Speaker 03

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• 3:59Speaker 04

  Everybody listen up.

• 4:01Speaker 03

  Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade in needed and the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for watch or iPad required. Additional terms apply for all offers.

• 4:16Speaker 05

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• 4:40Fearne Cotton?

  Right, let's do it. This is the show.

• 5:04Fearne Cotton?

  Welcome, welcome to the festival.

• 5:05Speaker 06

  Thank you, thank you for having me. Thank you.

• 5:07Fearne Cotton?

  It's so lovely to have you here. And as you well know, I love both of your books, but this I devoured in three days. It is, it's just so brilliant. So first of all, massive congratulations.

• 5:20Speaker 06

  Thank you so much, thank you.

• 5:22Fearne Cotton?

  How is it having this book out in the wild now? Because you know, it's such an insular thing to work on a book and to be involved in that world and to have this character return. And now it's, it's everybody else's story. How does that feel?

• 5:35Speaker 06

  It feels fine. It feels great. It feels very nice. I've done this a few times now, so it just feels like, okay, we've done this, what's next? I'm like Rihanna in that way. I get a bit bored, like when the project is wrapping up. Yeah, but it's really exciting. And actually, I get lots of people who love reading, get like, they come and tell me and they see me in the street, which is weird because authors never get recognised. But for some reason I do. So I get recognised and people come and tell me they love my work and it's really nice.

• 6:00Fearne Cotton?

  That's the best. I love that. I love this return to Queenie's world and we're catching up with Queenie a little bit later on down the line. She's in her early to mid 30s, so she's got a lot going on. Anyone who is in their 30s now, or we've done the 30s, we're in the next chapter. The 30s is a very interesting decade and it's a decade that comes with pressure, societal pressure, pressure from your peers and your inner circle. There's lots going on. What felt important for you to include in Queenie's 30s in this book?

• 6:37Speaker 06

  I think I tried to put everything I possibly could in there. I wanted to get to 30s first, so I wrote Queenie when I was 26, 27. And I thought, okay, if I do a sequel, she'll have to be a bit further on and I want to get there first and experience it. So I did some of my 30s and I wanted to kind of talk about what it felt like to not approach it and be scared a bit, but to be in there and to start thinking about what all of your timelines are meant to be. And the timelines that people like my family kept telling me my timeline should have been and what it feels like. Yeah.

• 7:09Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, it is something that most women go through is that pressure, whether it's people just asking slightly irritating questions or things that you don't want to talk about. It's, it is a sort of a confronting era. And one of the things that Queenie is dealing with in this book is fertility.

• 7:27Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 7:28Fearne Cotton?

  And that is again, something that all women would have faced in some form in their 30s, whether it's people asking questions or thoughts in your own head or the want to start a family. It's a really big topic. Did you feel, I don't know, overwhelmed approaching that with, with Queenie?

• 7:48Speaker 06

  I think I wanted to just approach it in a way that meant that I could put as many facts in as I could, like for everything and for everyone to read and understand. So I did a lot of research first. I approached it almost like a research project and then I kind of wove it into what the story would be and what the story could be. So I didn't feel overwhelmed. I felt almost like it was like a duty to inform. So there were lots of facts about fertility and they're all sort of couched in like funny stories or tips, but all of them are real. Every single, every single fact is real.

• 8:18Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I love that. And it is, and I know you've talked about this before, but fiction is a brilliant way to tackle subjects that need turning over, exposing, us to sort of dig around in. And one of them was medical racism, which is a huge topic and one that doesn't get covered in fiction that often at all. So how was that to kind of weave into the story? Did it feel, obviously felt urgently needed because it is, but how did you find weaving it into the story?

• 8:48Speaker 06

  I think I just knew it was an important thing to talk about and I thought, okay, well, what's next? Like, what are we saying after that? And I thought, if I can actually interrogate what that means and also what comes before that, we can really do something here. So it's telling a story, but also it's a warning. And also, I guess it's a question, like, what are we going to do next? So yeah, it felt like it was really necessary. It always feels, I guess, in my work, it's always going to be politicised just because I'm a black woman who's writing in a largely white space. So I just thought we have to just lean into that now. I can't be, I can't be afraid of it.

• 9:21Fearne Cotton?

  No, I thought you did it impeccably because it, it, it didn't deter from the storyline at all. You're so in Queenie's head and watching her navigate all of these thoughts and feelings that were happening within her friendship group, within her working life. But equally, it was just highlighting things that we all need to understand better and know about better and then think, well, what is the action? How can we collectively do something about this? And when you were doing your research and having sort of read a couple of articles that you've done more recently, when you look into medical racism, the, the reasons are unbelievably flimsy.

• 9:59Fearne Cotton?

  And even that seems like a sort of, I don't know, a reductive way of saying it, because the reasons are things like beliefs around biological pain and cultural incompetence. There's, there's nothing, there's no substance there to back up any of the reasons why black women end up getting treated differently.

• 10:20Speaker 06

  I remember my sister is 28 now and she had a baby five years ago and I went to kind of be her advocate because I knew that she wouldn't be looked after. And the ways that she was treated as a young black woman, they informed this so much. I just couldn't believe what I was seeing and I was asking reasons why they were doing certain things or talking to in certain ways. And nobody had an, an answer for me. And I just thought we all need to get a lot better at this. So again, I can never, I can only ever do so much. And I feel like if I put it in the work, then maybe we could take some notice.

• 10:51Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my God, without a doubt. I think I love seeing activism pop up in lots of different ways. It doesn't have to be the obvious way, an overt way. It can be beautifully woven into a story where it actually probably sticks in your head more so. Because you're, certainly when you love a character and you love a world in fiction, it's such a beautiful way of, of learning and wanting to help with the change or see change, or at least try and understand a subject better. So I thought you did it so beautifully. I DM'd you on Instagram not long ago because... Again, what I love about your writing is your characters are so real. When I was reading it, I kept thinking I was gonna like bump into one of them when I was out and about. They're just so vivid and there.

• 11:36Fearne Cotton?

  One of them being TFL Guy. He is, okay, some people have read the book and they're like, I know him. He's a character that I was just like, I can picture this person. I can absolutely imagine them. When you're initially starting out with, okay, I know what the themes are. I know roughly where I went the story to go. Where do these characters come from? Are they drawn from your own experience? Are they completely fantastical? Where do they come from?

• 12:02Speaker 06

  I think they're just people that I've sort of seen in and around the world. So they're never like person for person for legal reasons, but also generally.

• 12:10Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 12:11Speaker 06

  But they're always just like amalgams of people that I've met and that I've spoken to. And I spend so much of my time listening to people. I'm kind of obsessed with listening to people and learning about them. And so actually characterization is really easy for me. It's like my favorite thing. And I think, well, I know that I focus on character more than I do on plot. Plot kind of for me is like a side quest. I just wanna know what journey the character is going on. That's the most important thing. So yeah, I just, I really want characters to feel real because I want the story to feel relatable. I want people to think, oh, this could be someone that I know, or this could be someone that I've met. But also star signs are very important to me too. So every single character has their star sign and that helps me to figure out who they are.

• 12:49Fearne Cotton?

  I love that. What star sign are you?

• 12:51Speaker 06

  Cancerian.

• 12:52Fearne Cotton?

  And do you feel like you're a typical Cancerian? Is that, yeah?

• 12:55Speaker 06

  Very shy. This is, this is hard. But it's really nice.

• 12:59Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, it's great. My dad's a Cancer. I know, I know cancers.

• 13:02Speaker 06

  Yeah, I'll cry afterwards.

• 13:04Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's fine. I'm a Virgo, so I'll like make some notes about it while you're crying and then like hug you afterwards. Yeah, it's absolute, I'm very typical Virgo. Like I have a notepad for fuck's sake.

• 13:14Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 13:15Fearne Cotton?

  No, I love that. When you're, that whole character process, I'm really fascinated by. And how each author will go about their process very differently. Are those characters so cemented that they just live in your head? Or are you writing down a little profile about each of them that you can, you can go back to whilst you're writing the story?

• 13:35Speaker 06

  I've got like things that characters like and don't like, just as a benchmark. But I think for me, because I had all the characters in Queenie, I just had to think about people in this one that would fit into her world. And so it was really nice to draw new characters that maybe I've worked with or maybe I've experienced over the last like few years of, of like living life and, and working and doing things. So yeah, it's all about the world, I think. And I guess I've like written and drafted in some characters. I'm like, you don't quite work here. You know, like it's, it just, I think it's like, it's an instinctive thing.

• 14:07Fearne Cotton?

  That's so interesting about, you need to like go off and live life, obviously, to get inspired. And I'm imagining there was a pressure from your publishers after the success of Queenie, like, we want another one. We want more Queenie. And equally, I'm sure there's excitement, like, yeah, I, I want to go back into Queenie's world and see where she goes next. But you do need to go off and do like very normal things and, and get some life lived. Did you feel that pressure and how did you make space to then just go and live your life?

• 14:41Speaker 06

  I don't know. I was working, so I was doing TV. So I did like a sort of like book stuff. And then I thought, okay, I can rest now. Like I've done, I've done enough. And everyone was like, no, you haven't. You have to make a TV show and make another TV show. So I went and did that. But I was still trying to live life around it. And I actually keep my life like quite small, so it's really nice and easy. I'm not very outside. I like to be inside on my sofa watching music videos. That really is what I'll be doing.

• 15:04Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I love that.

• 15:05Speaker 06

  A lot of people like that too, I can tell.

• 15:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 15:07Speaker 06

  And so, yeah, but I think, like I said, so much of it is, is people and I have amazing friendships. And I think I spend my time, I guess, nourishing myself through those.

• 15:15Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 15:15Speaker 06

  And that's really important, especially when you're locked away writing all the time. But you do have to live to experience. But I also think when you write, you have to listen. You have to listen to your point. And also you have to read. That's the important thing too.

• 15:28Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. And do you, can you read whilst you're writing or is that too distracting? Cause you read someone else's fiction?

• 15:34Speaker 06

  No, I can't read anyone else's fiction. I can read nonfiction. And I love nonfiction because sometimes nonfiction is just as, I mean, it's just sometimes as brilliant as a fictional story. But yeah, I tend towards, yeah, I, I stay very far away just in case I end up writing like Sally Rooney's characters or something.

• 15:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I can see you all, cause they, they live in your head. When you're into a fiction, it takes over. I can see how that'd be massively distracting. You mentioned there, your own friendships. Obviously Queenie's friendship group is incredibly important. And also laugh out loud funny. I love the fact that you've just constantly got these text messages going on between the corgis. They're all chatting to each other and calling each other out in a really brilliant, honest way that only that sort of sisterhood gives you, where you can be so blunt and honest with your friends. I'm imagining that that felt like a very important part of this chapter of Queenie's life.

• 16:26Speaker 06

  It did. And I feel like in your twenties, you can have friendships where you're kind of just going along with things. And also you're getting to know people and getting to know yourself. But by your thirties, accountability starts to come into play, I think. And I think it's really good to have friends around you who can call you out, but also just question what your motivations are. And it was really important for this. Queenie obviously is on her journey and she's kind of got a strand of her fertility journey, which is like good and researching. And a strand that is not so good, which she should interrogate quite a lot. And her friends are the ones who love her enough to want her to do that. And I think writing friendship love is always gonna be more important to me than anything else.

• 17:05Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. I mean, you can tell in the book, it's such an important part of who she is and how she's learning. And I, I love the bit where she's got like a, a little graph of all the different men and she's looking at.

• 17:18Speaker 06

  The sex grid.

• 17:18Fearne Cotton?

  A sex grid. Let's put it out there. That's what it's called. It's a sex grid.

• 17:21Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 17:22Fearne Cotton?

  And she's looking at the stats of these men and if they're, if they qualify or not. And it changes throughout the book. It's, it's so brilliant. Yeah, the, the female friendship thing, I think, is never to be underestimated. And so often we see female characters, whether it's in films, TVs, books, and it's all about, like the whole thing is the romance with the man. And actually, for me, this was about, it was female friendship. And like you say, having the accountability, calling each other out and making sure that, you know, there was honesty in, in that friendship. And that is something that you grow into. Another really important bit of growth for Queenie from the first book to the second is her own self compassion, which seems to definitely be something that she's aware of in her thirties.

• 18:06Fearne Cotton?

  And I wonder for you, cause obviously we always put a bit of ourselves in our writing, if that was something in your thirties that you thought about, like, am I being kind to myself? Am I looking after myself?

• 18:19Speaker 06

  Well, I think your inner voice just gets more confident as you get more confident. And my inner voice in my twenties, I guess was really harsh on myself, as we all are. And then I guess you have external voices when people start reading your work and you have to work very hard to block those out too. And just make sure that you're on kind of the, the mental path that you're on. But I've always, I mean, I go to therapy. I'm very therapized. Like that's, that's like, right? Like that's why I can like sort of like get out of bed in the morning.

• 18:47Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, no, same.

• 18:48Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I think even, even doing that as a thing, you still, you know, your therapist still captures the things that you say to yourself. And I remember thinking, you do have to start liking yourself at some point because if you don't, then you're not gonna like anyone else enough. And I think I wanted to put that across too. And also make sure that Queenie was giving herself the patience that I started to ever to give myself to not always get everything right and indeed be like working on things. I think we are all working on things forever.

• 19:18Fearne Cotton?

  Forever.

• 19:19Speaker 06

  And I think the sooner we realize it and be kind to ourselves while we do it, the better.

• 19:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, that's the good and the bad news. Cause I think certainly in like the wellness space, which slightly sometimes irks me, we're kind of doing that here, but I wanna make sure that happy place is, I don't know, not a prescriptive thing. It's like you find your thing and, and you work it out and you work out what makes you feel good and like yourself. But it is, it's like every day forever. And no one really wants to hear that. Cause we want, oh, tell me five tips and then I'm fixed. And actually, it's every day forever. You've gotta get up and have, like be accountable, look at yourself, look at, you know, the, the flaws that you know you have and accept them rather than keep trying to fix yourself the whole time.

• 20:06Fearne Cotton?

  And I think, and I don't know how you feel about this, cause you're obviously a lot closer to Queenie. But I feel like people love this character because she's got flaws. She's not this person who's seamlessly moving through her friendship groups, her relationships, her working life. She's sort of stumbling over things and, and learning as she goes. And she's not always getting it right. Do you think that's why she's lovable?

• 20:27Speaker 06

  I think so. I think people see themselves in her. And when I do talks or even when I get DMs, it's people saying, you basically wrote my twenties in the first novel. And some people already have started to say, I can see myself so much of her, so much of myself in her in my thirties. And that's an amazing thing because as I said, I really want her to be relatable. But I also realize all the things that I enjoyed, all the characters that I've loved growing up, none of those characters have been perfect. I mean, like when you go out watching Carrie Bradshaw, you can't then write like a perfect woman and think that that's like a real thing or anything normal. I just wanted it to also be interesting. You have to send people on a journey. And like I say, I, I think about the character arc more than I would ever think about the story arc.

• 21:10Speaker 06

  Like everyone has to go through something. And as you say, like still continues to go through it. So there'll be a Queenie in her forties and her fifties.

• 21:18Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 21:18Speaker 06

  You know?

• 21:19Fearne Cotton?

  Please, can there be a menopausal Queenie? Please, that's what we need. Like she's just having all the hot flushes and freaking out about everything. We need that.

• 21:28Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 21:28Fearne Cotton?

  And you loved back in the day Bridget Jones. That was something that was inspiring to you.

• 21:33Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah. I did, I did. So I remember when I was asked about this, I was asked when I was first writing it, what I wanted it to be. And I said, I want it to be like the scale of Bridget Jones. I want it to be a Black Bridget Jones. I want it to be in everyone's house. Like that's really important to me because I love that book. And I remember finding Bridget Jones's diary in my aunt's house when I was 12. And like reading it on the landing, like as soon as I opened it, I was like, this is the best thing ever. And that's why her best friend is called Darcy in the first, in the first one. Cause it's like a love letter and a thank you. But also about the love of a female friend rather than a, you know, like a male suitor.

• 22:10Fearne Cotton?

  I love that. It's also a bit of a love letter to London, well, to South London. That's really prevalent throughout the book. You really feel like you're there. I'm imagining that was quite a fun and easy part to write, that sort of love letter to London.

• 22:24Speaker 06

  Yeah, it was, I mean, it was easy to, I know so much of South London, but I also recognised and still recognise how much of it is changing. And so I think in the first novel in particular, I was basically trying to like archive the places that I knew would be gone by the time it came out and the places that no longer exist. So there were like three big landmark places in the book that do not exist anymore, you know, like six years later. And so, yeah, I tried to, I tried to, yeah, archive the places that I know.

• 22:51Fearne Cotton?

  I love that. It's like a little London time capsule.

• 22:54Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 22:54Fearne Cotton?

  It's so gorgeous.

• 22:58Speaker 03

  I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. I can keep my old phone and I also get the latest iPhone every year. Shh, anything else? Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them.

• 23:11Speaker 04

  Everybody listen up.

• 23:13Speaker 03

  Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade in needed. And the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for Watch or iPad required. Additional terms apply for all offers.

• 23:28Speaker 02

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• 23:58Speaker 05

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• 24:25Speaker 04

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• 24:40Fearne Cotton?

  Also in this book, we've got a wedding and I am mad for any book or film. Like, one of my favourites is still Four Weddings and a Funeral. I just love being in fiction at a wedding. It's the best. And a hen, like an awful hen. I hate hens.

• 24:55Speaker 06

  I know.

• 24:56Fearne Cotton?

  Why are hens so awful?

• 24:58Speaker 06

  This is the worst one ever, I think.

• 24:59Fearne Cotton?

  The worst? They're so shit. I hate them. I try and dodge them massively, but I've been to so many bad ones. The one was on a canal boat and we were all like, we all had sashes and like willy straws and I'm like, what are we doing?

• 25:15Speaker 06

  I've done exactly the same thing. It might be the same canal boat tour.

• 25:18Fearne Cotton?

  It might be the same canal boat. Why am I on a canal drinking a little willy? What am I?

• 25:23Speaker 06

  And you can't leave.

• 25:24Fearne Cotton?

  And you can't leave. You're trapped on a boat. You can't get off. They're so awful. Thank you for writing that.

• 25:30Speaker 06

  So welcome.

• 25:31Fearne Cotton?

  It's so great. And also the wedding, just the chaos of a wedding is just such a great climax of a book. Did you love writing that bit?

• 25:39Speaker 06

  It did. I really loved writing it, but also it's about, it's about, I guess, Queenie at a wedding and she really wanted to go with T F A Man, but obviously like, I mean, he's called T F A Man. He's obviously let her down. He hasn't turned up. He doesn't have her real name, obviously.

• 25:52Fearne Cotton?

  Doesn't just have one.

• 25:53Speaker 06

  No, he doesn't. And she takes her best friend with her and it is the fun that you do have with best friends. The fun that you find at a wedding when you're like, no, this, this isn't for me. This isn't my, this isn't my bag. This isn't.

• 26:04Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 26:04Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 26:05Fearne Cotton?

  It's so brilliant. And I'm really interested in your process as a whole. There was a picture of you, I think it was on Instagram, in your office, which is the most aesthetically pleasing place I've ever seen. There's like, there's a colour palette. You've got giant Post-its on the wall. It is so neat. It's actually very Virgo. This whole space. Talk to us about this space and how you work in that space.

• 26:32Speaker 06

  It's a pink room. It's just like a little pink room and all of the colour coding is behind me, but it's kind of fake because I don't look at it. It's just, it's to look good, basically. So when people come in, they're like, she's working really hard. So, yeah, but I have a really nice office, but I do make it like a nice and like gentle space. It's like a nice big sofa. So I can like be comfortable. And I think it's nice to take myself away from my house because I used to write just like in bed, which is like comfortable, but also just like you would just fall asleep. And there are deadlines, so you can't do that. So, no, I do, I try to cultivate like a really nice and bright space so that I feel excited by doing work. Because like I said, it's very solitary. You're doing a hundred thousand words of like writing by yourself. You need to do things, you have to have things like wake you up almost.

• 27:17Fearne Cotton?

  And what's your, what's your time of day? When, when do you feel like the cogs are just turning and everything's flowing?

• 27:24Speaker 06

  I'm still asleep, so right now, so probably like 3pm.

• 27:27Fearne Cotton?

  Really?

• 27:28Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I like, yeah, so I think my brain turns on at about 12. So if you see me at 12, come and say hi.

• 27:34Fearne Cotton?

  You'll be line dancing in the happy hub, yeah?

• 27:36Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, no, I think I get to my office about 3 and then I start about, about 3pm. And then, but I'd go until maybe like night time. So I'm just a late, I'm on the late shift.

• 27:46Fearne Cotton?

  We are the opposite. I am firing all cylinders at 7am and by 8am it's downhill from there. Catch me at 7pm, void of any personality. I haven't, it's gone. I've died. It's, I can't do it.

• 28:01Speaker 06

  Yeah, I see 7am and I'm going to sleep.

• 28:04Fearne Cotton?

  Wow.

• 28:05Speaker 06

  I'll message you.

• 28:06Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, please do. Because I'm going to be like, wow, like absolutely firing. But I think you have to know that about yourself and lean into it. Because I used to think, no, I should be more of a night owl and like be a party animal or whatever. And it's not, it's not in me. I need to be in bed mega, mega early.

• 28:23Speaker 06

  Yeah, I'm not a nine to five. I tried it. I did it for many years and I don't, I don't know how I kept my job, but I did. And that's why I probably write for myself.

• 28:32Fearne Cotton?

  I love that. Do you need to balance that? Because it is so solitary writing and you have to be so focused. It's such a weird process going, right, I'm going to write a book. It needs to be a hundred thousand words. And you're at the foot of a mountain and there's no way around it. You've just got to get the words on a page. And it can feel very daunting when you start. It can feel very daunting halfway through. I've currently got two half finished books on my laptop that make me want to vomit. I can't even think about them. And I've reached that point where I'm like, I'm going to probably bin them both because it's too overwhelming. It's just, you know, that feeling. It's too, it's too much. And it's not even writer's block. It's like, I just can't be dealing with it.

• 29:17Fearne Cotton?

  What do you do if you, if you come up against that feeling of, oh my God, this is all too much. I don't even know how I'm going to finish this book?

• 29:25Speaker 06

  So I've had this and I would, I've had this a lot, but I would say that my self-care in those moments is to talk about it. So actually like telling your friends about it is one thing, but also I speak to my editor and I would just say, this is where I am and this is what I can't do right now. And I think just talking about it and having someone who is kind of like in charge, understand it, that takes a lot of the pressure off. It's like telling the teacher, like, I don't know how to do this, do this thing. And they say like, it's okay. You can just like come back to it. You're like, oh, okay.

• 29:54Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 29:55Speaker 06

  And then you give yourself permission just to like calm down a bit and just take your time. But I would say with all things, it's about taking time. And I think that we're in a culture now where everything feels like we have to rush constantly. And I don't think you get the best results when you do. So my thing is always just, I just, I really do take my time with things, even if it might like put someone's nose up a little bit. I do think it's, it's always better in the end.

• 30:17Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 30:18Speaker 06

  I always think, just look after your brain.

• 30:19Fearne Cotton?

  You can't rush that. You can't. It's something, and you're so right. I think culturally we are just taught, like, everything has to be fast paced. What's next? How are we going to get to the end of this? And actually, as a reader, you don't want to feel like you're rushed for a book. You want to feel like you're, you get to know the character, you get to know the world that they're in. So it's really important for you as a writer to be in that frame of mind. But you do have to constantly self motivate. You know, you don't have someone going, come on, like get writing. You've just got to do it. Like, there's no, again, trick. You just have to open the laptop and just start.

• 30:57Speaker 06

  Yeah, you just have to give yourself rewards.

• 30:59Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, right. Yeah, yeah, definitely.

• 31:00Speaker 06

  Treat yourself and be like, at the end of this, I will.

• 31:02Fearne Cotton?

  Have a massive glass of wine.

• 31:04Speaker 06

  Absolutely, yeah. If that's your thing, yeah.

• 31:05Fearne Cotton?

  That is my thing.

• 31:06Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 31:06Fearne Cotton?

  That's what I'm doing tonight. We're at a dry festival, so there is no booze here, which is excellent, but that doesn't count when you get home.

• 31:14Speaker 06

  Yeah, or like in the car back.

• 31:15Fearne Cotton?

  Or in the car. Not while I'm driving, obviously. Yeah, no, it's, I think the reward system is, is very important. Do you get that sort of feeling when you filed it and you're like, I'm done, where you can just have that deep sigh of relief?

• 31:29Speaker 06

  I think so. I think so. But then, you know, there's like an editing process and there are things you do. And someone comes and says, here are all the terrible things about this novel that you need to get rid of by next week. But I do think when, when I, when you do hand things in, there is like, you must have this too. There's like a, at least there's like a small sense of accomplishment that lasts for like an hour. And it's nice to just like sit in that and enjoy it and remember it because it won't come back for another like three years.

• 31:53Fearne Cotton?

  It's so short-lived. And then, like you say, there is this brutal part. And I remember like the first time I wrote a book, getting editorial notes back. I was like, ah, what? I couldn't believe, like, it was so humbling. And now I'm like, yeah, of course. I'm clicking on that tab, looking at the note, rectifying a, a part of the book, and it always makes it better. But you do have to sort of.

• 32:15Fearne Cotton?

  Take the emotion out of it completely to know that all of those notes are helping you refine the book and get it to the best kind of copy it can be. How have you found that process over the years?

• 32:27Speaker 06

  I really like it because I think how can I use this to make it the best it can be. And I think that the person who, I mean, it's like a process, obviously, but I think the person who's working on it, they also want it to be the best it can be. And so when you think of it as like a partnership, rather than someone telling you what to do, it feels, it feels much nicer. And also, it feels like somebody cares.

• 32:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 32:46Speaker 06

  I would be really worried, and I think you would too, if someone was like, no, it's perfect, we'll publish it. I'd be like, no, no, no, no, no, don't do that.

• 32:51Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 32:52Speaker 06

  So yeah, I think it's a really good part of the process. And I think, you know, sometimes it's like, this is an ego thing. It's like, just get rid of it, you know?

• 33:00Fearne Cotton?

  Get rid.

• 33:00Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 33:01Fearne Cotton?

  You can't have an ego when you're writing a book.

• 33:02Speaker 06

  No, I don't.

• 33:03Fearne Cotton?

  No way. There'll be plenty of people here today, and I'm sure they'll talk to you at the book signing or talk to you around the festival today, who want to write a book, have got a story to tell, whether it's fiction, non-fiction, it's obviously, and it's a really hard thing, if we're frank and honest, to get a book published. There's no easy route to do it. What advice would you give to someone who's thinking, I just want to get those words on a page?

• 33:27Speaker 06

  I think really just get them on the page is the thing. I meet so many people who say, I've got the first three chapters and I'm waiting to like talk to someone. I think just do it, because I think the process of writing can be sometimes the most rewarding thing. And I would say also, when you're a debut, that will be the only time you really get for it to be you and the work. Because as soon as you publish one thing, odds are the next thing that you publish will be, I guess, it's not your thing anymore. It turns into like the work, rather than like the joy. And I remember writing the first Queenie and you just, I had no idea that anything would happen with it. I just thought, if I just write it for myself, at least I've written it and I've got some things out of my system. And then, yeah, it turns into like a, when is this going to happen? What are we going to talk about now? We need to have a meeting. And you're like, oh, okay,

• 34:11Speaker 06

  this isn't fun anymore. This is work now.

• 34:13Fearne Cotton?

  This is real.

• 34:14Speaker 06

  So I would say, I would just say, like, enjoy the, enjoy the first draft, but also do do it. I think do get it done, because actually someone might come and say, yeah, actually, no, we do want that. Can I have a look at it? Because there are so many agents that you can reach out and talk to who are looking for certain things. So yeah, just have it ready.

• 34:30Fearne Cotton?

  Do you still write just for you? Because you're so right. Once you turn a passion, and there are plenty of people here today who are, who have got brands in the shedding units in the shopping area, who do something they're deeply passionate about.

• 34:42Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 34:43Fearne Cotton?

  But there is a moment where it clicks over to, and this is also hard work, and the two can exist, but sometimes it is still important to do something just for you. Do you, do you make time for that?

• 34:53Speaker 06

  I do. I make sure, like, journaling is like a, I don't do that, because I think I'd be scared someone would find them.

• 34:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yes. I burned all mine once.

• 35:01Speaker 06

  And, yeah.

• 35:02Fearne Cotton?

  All of them.

• 35:02Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I should do the same.

• 35:04Fearne Cotton?

  Do it.

• 35:05Speaker 06

  And so, yeah, I try to avoid doing that. But I think that writing, just little things, I draw like, quite a lot. Like if I like wanna, like I wanna visualize things, I draw them and like do like a little drawing vision board, because it feels like a different

• 35:17Fearne Cotton?

  I love that.

• 35:18Speaker 06

  A different way of like using your brain.

• 35:20Fearne Cotton?

  It's like a manifesting thing.

• 35:21Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. Try it, it's nice.

• 35:24Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's a nice way of doing it. Sometimes it feels, sometimes with manifesting, I've got a bit of a problem with manifesting. Sometimes I think, who am I to say I know what I want? That sounds mad. But I think sometimes we're like, I want this to happen. And actually, that isn't the best thing for you. And sometimes, it's the surprise moments in life that are the ones that have given me the most, or they've been so unexpected, I couldn't have dreamed them up if I tried. So I feel a bit funny about being exact. And maybe a drawing is a, a kind of maybe more.

• 35:54Speaker 06

  Too much.

• 35:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, you know, it's a good way. It's like a vaguer way of like, I'm just going to draw a little happy face, actually. So quite like to feel happy, thank you very much. And just not something so specific.

• 36:04Speaker 06

  Yeah, but I also do think that hope is a really important thing. And I always think, so I support Arsenal and, like Jordan over there. And I would.

• 36:14Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, hi.

• 36:15Speaker 06

  And I would always think, okay, well, what's gonna, you know, that we, everyone kept being like, oh, yeah, we might not, might not win the league. And I was like, but we might as well just hope that we do. Because I thought, there's nothing to lose by like hoping, you know? And then we won. And like, it's not down to me, but I know that, in any way, shape or form, but I know that when it happened, I was like, well, you know, if we'd lost, the hope didn't, you know, the hope didn't kill me.

• 36:39Fearne Cotton?

  Did you draw like people playing football in your notepad?

• 36:42Speaker 06

  Drew Arteta, just smiling all the time.

• 36:45Fearne Cotton?

  I love that. I think that's really, really good advice, because there'll be so many people today that will come up to you saying, that's my dream, that's what I want to do, how do I get going with it? And I think hope is a really key ingredient for any mission or goal that you're on. If you don't have a glimmer of hope about your own capabilities, your own dreams, no one else is going to do that for you. And especially with writing, it is kind of, it's you. You know, it's, it's not a whole team of people. You've got to, you've got to have that belief in yourself. Is that something that you've cultivated over the years? Like with age, that, that is an easier thing to feel hopeful?

• 37:27Speaker 06

  I think with age, as I say, comes more confidence, also more hope. And also, like, good things happen. And when bad things happen, you realize that you know how to get through them. And I think that that's a good thing. I think that failure is a really good thing. I think that being able to figure out a problem is a really amazing thing. And I think knowing that, no, the worst that can really happen is like, I don't know, this certain thing doesn't work out, but then there'll be other things that do work out. So yeah, I think like failure is just as good as success in so many different ways, because you learn from those things.

• 37:54Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 37:55Speaker 06

  And I think sometimes success can be quite uncomfortable for some people, because you kind of don't know where to put it. So I think that, yeah, in time, you're just like, everything just works itself out in some way.

• 38:04Fearne Cotton?

  You're so right. I totally agree with you. And I think sometimes with moments of success, because they are moments. It's, I think, we all assume that like, you get to a place where like, I don't know, you're, and deck, there's success. But, you know, I've interviewed them on the podcast, and they've gone, oh, no, we don't feel like we've made it. You know, it's a, it's a, an inner world thing. It's when you feel for maybe an hour, like, oh, that went well. And, and you're so right, especially I think with something like, you know, you dream of being a writer, you, you write your, your fiction that blows up and everybody absolutely loves it. Then what? Like, you've done it. And it, and it doesn't mean it's the end of the road, but there is a moment of like, oh, right, okay. And then sometimes you think, oh, and I'm just still me? And I, and that

• 38:49Fearne Cotton?

  there's still all the things in my head that feel problematic and doesn't fix anything. I think that's like a cultural issue we still have, that we assume that feeling is gonna then negate any worries that are to follow. And it doesn't work like that.

• 39:03Speaker 06

  Doesn't at all. But I do think it's about trying to like, I guess, it sounds really, but I've just tried to practice gratitude just all the time for all things, because there are always things to be worried about and always things to be grateful for. And I think that the balance of that is really necessary to be like, well, I'm still just like a functioning human. And I guess like constant success would just be really exhausting. And you wouldn't know where to, you wouldn't know where to put it. But I guess success is a, is different for every single person. And I think everyone has different benchmarks, and that's important, too.

• 39:34Fearne Cotton?

  Yes. Sometimes my most successful days are just where my children haven't had a massive fight.

• 39:40Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 39:40Fearne Cotton?

  And they've like eaten some decent food, and they're asleep. And I'm like, I've nailed it.

• 39:46Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 39:46Fearne Cotton?

  I've absolutely nailed it. Which books recently have really floated your boat?

• 39:50Speaker 06

  There is a, there's a writer called Desha Filial, who is American. She writes lots of, she writes short stories about like racy church ladies in America.

• 39:59Fearne Cotton?

  Ooh la la.

• 40:00Speaker 06

  Yeah, I know, I know. And she has a new book coming out called The True Confessions of First Lady Freeman, which is like this conceptual novel, which is about a pastor's wife. She's very young and sexy and gets up to things that she shouldn't. And it's like a mega pastor of like a huge church.

• 40:16Fearne Cotton?

  Buying.

• 40:17Speaker 06

  Yeah. So I've been reading, so I've been reading that, and I've been taking my time with it, because I've been like going around. But I really, really love.

• 40:22Fearne Cotton?

  Savoring.

• 40:23Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah.

• 40:24Fearne Cotton?

  I love that.

• 40:24Speaker 06

  I think leaning into like, like saucy is good.

• 40:27Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, me too.

• 40:27Speaker 06

  Yeah, but not like full on. But like, you know, we'll keep it, you know?

• 40:31Fearne Cotton?

  Churchy racy.

• 40:32Speaker 06

  Churchy racy.

• 40:33Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. It's a genre of its own. I love it. How about non-fiction? Have you, have there been any books? Like, whenever I'm asked this question, I always try and like remember the list, because it's so overwhelming to think back about all the books you've read. But there's a non-fiction called The Four Agreements that I've gone back to again and again and again. Because I think there's now even a new edition, The Fifth Agreement. But it's like four very esoteric like rules for life, basic foundational things that we can lean on when we're feeling really, really shit. And whenever I've been in a bit of a dark space, that is the one book that I know I can pick up and just, I'll get something from it. Have you, have you got books like that in your life?

• 41:12Speaker 06

  The one book that I go to all the time is On Connection by Kay Tempest. And it was written at a time when he, I guess, was really struggling with being successful. So he's a poet and a performer, struggling with being successful and didn't know how to connect with people. And I felt like I was at a time when I was just working all the time and didn't see my friends and didn't see my family. And I didn't really know what friendship was or what care was at that time. I just knew how to file a deadline. And it's about how to connect back with yourself and then to connect with other people while acknowledging how difficult it is to just lose connections with people. So it's just a tiny little book, and that's where I can go back to it constantly. But it's like one of my little bibles that I have all the time. And if I'm feeling a bit like I'm not quite myself, I'll just

• 41:57Speaker 06

  like find a passage.

• 41:58Fearne Cotton?

  I love that. I love Kay.

• 42:00Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 42:01Fearne Cotton?

  Hey, if any of you love poetry, we've got an expressive arts area, which is one of my favorite parts of the festival every year, where, actually, you're doing a book reading there later on. But there's book readings, there's poetry readings, there's relaxing music. It's a really nice spot. If you just want to like grab a coffee, go and sit there, listen to something gorgeous. We had Donna Ashworth there yesterday, who was doing beautiful readings. People were crying, it was heaven. We've, I think we've got Lucas Jones there today, I want to say, and here maybe. And I am Lucas Jones' number one fan. I've never met Lucas, but whenever I watch his poetry online, I weep. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna like curtsy when I see him later. I'm very, very excited. Where is your happy place?

• 42:42Speaker 06

  Where is my happy place? My happy place is, it's in my head, which I think was necessary. But it's, I remember visualizing just a really nice room with loads of books in it and an open window, and the curtains like flowing as breeze was coming through, as I wish it was coming through today and this week and last week. And I just go back to that place. I just visualize that like all the, all the, all the time. Like, it's like a really calming thing for me. It's like, I've had it for maybe like 10 years. It's just like my grounding place. But in real life, I would say, for me, it's kind of like, at the end of the day, when I've like done my like teeth care and my, because I've got like a retainer and stuff, my teeth care and my skincare, and I can just get into bed and be like, everything is done and everything is, is quiet. And I can just

• 43:26Speaker 06

  do my like 20 minute meditation and then fall asleep halfway through, obviously. But that's my happy place. My place is like when the day is like, when the day is complete.

• 43:35Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I love that. And I love that you've got one in your head. When I did EMDR therapy, that's what we were kind of told to do is you find that place, whether it's by the sea or whatever, but you can visualize it really strongly and get the same visceral feeling of being there. It's really powerful.

• 43:51Speaker 06

  Yeah, mine should be on a beach, right? Like, shouldn't be in a room. I'm gonna try and I'm gonna change that.

• 43:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, switch it to a gorgeous beach.

• 43:56Speaker 06

  Yeah, I'm gonna change that.

• 43:57Fearne Cotton?

  Lovely drink, the waves lapping on the shore. Gorgeous. Well, look, we have loved having Queenie is working on it as our July book club pick. It is, it's been a joy for me to read, a joy for our book club members to talk along about and to get excited about. You're gonna be doing a book signing, I think, quite soon. The book area is literally next door. So if you want to get your copy signed, you can buy one there. You can get the book signed. We've got loads of authors doing book signings all day today. Candice Carty-Williams, thank you so much for being on Happy Place and for being at the festival. Give it up for Candice.

• 44:34Fearne Cotton?

  Candice, what a beautiful chat. I loved it. I loved meeting you. I loved getting to know you. I loved hearing about your creative process. Just what a wonderful person you are. One of my best mates who was sat in the audience said that was their favorite chat of the whole weekend. One of mine, too. I just absolutely loved it. By the way, the Jordan that Candice spotted in the audience is the wonderful Jordan Stephens, who was doing a talk later in the day with Donna Lancaster. I just love Jordan. I've left him a regrettably eight-minute-long voice note saying how much I appreciated him being there, and he's not replied because probably hasn't listened to it. No one wants an eight-minute voice note, but you know when you can't sum up how much you love someone in less than

• 45:17Fearne Cotton?

  eight minutes? It was one of them. Sorry, Jordan. Right, we are heading into a new month, which of course means a new book for us all to read in the Happy Place Book Club. In August, we're reading Family Friends by Chloe Ashby. Oh, this is such a sumptuous book. This is the perfect holiday reading because it's set in south of France. I love a holiday book that's set in a foreign country. It's my favorite thing ever. And this is, like, this is one of those books where you can feel the heat of France coming off the pages. You can smell a barbecue cooking. You can hear the crickets chirping in the bushes. It's one of them. I absolutely love it. Here's the concept. Two couples always holiday together

• 46:00Fearne Cotton?

  at the end of the summer, but this year, there are ghosts of the past and irrepressible new connections getting in the way of their idyllic getaway. See, it's juicy, isn't it? I'd love if you came and chatted about Family Friends on Instagram. We are at Happy Place Book Club on Instagram. There's loads more behind-the-scenes stuff from our wonderful authors on that page, too. And we just basically nerd out about books in general. All right, lovely lot. Until next time, a massive thanks again to Candice and to you. You are my favorite bookworms.

• 48:13Speaker 04

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