Pod Insights Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel In Loving You, I Learned to Love Myself About this episode She unknowingly changed the course of his life, and he's loved her ever since. It's been decades, and even though he now dates men, he wonders how to live with these feelings of what he calls unrequited love. How do you hold a candle of gratitude for someone who will never know how much they meant to you?
Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected] .
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 Hi Esther, where do I begin? Well, I think the first thing to say is that for most of my adult life, my romantic and sexual experiences have been with men. But the story I want to talk to you about is about a girl. And my question really is around unrequited love and how do you live with unrequited love? So the background to the story is that when I was young, maybe around 11, 12, I became extremely infatuated with one of my classmates
0:45 Speaker 00 and had very grown-up sort of ideas about the kind of attraction I had towards her and what a possible romantic life would look like. As it turns out, however, when I took the opportunity to sort of confess all of these feelings to her, she plainly said that she didn't feel the same way about me. That rejection was not entirely unexpected, given that, you know, she's from an entirely different class than I and I was. And the social structure of the place I'm from
1:30 Speaker 00 sort of dictates, you know, romantic relationships and I was very aware of that. So I'm now in my 30s, but of late and quite often she comes up in my memory and I can't seem to...
1:53 Speaker 00 Forget her. And she shapes a lot of what I expect emotionally in relationships. And she's a sort of silent character in my romantic life. And it leaves me with a lot of longing and unfulfilled desires. So my, my question, really, I, I think I know is not one that can be resolved, but it's a life question for me, I think, of how to live with unrequited love.
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4:36 Esther Perel? You first.
4:40 Speaker 00 Yeah, when I listen back, it sounds a bit sad, but it's actually not a sad story from my perspective because I would say this is someone who saved my life in a way. Because even though we never got to be in a relationship or got to be romantic, we were actually very good friends during high school. And she was the smartest girl in the class. I wasn't so smart.
5:15 Esther Perel? Where was this, by the way?
5:17 Speaker 00 Oh, this is Jamaica. And we sat beside each other in class and I would copy everything she did. So how she wrote, the books she read. And I mean, she was reading the Harry Potter books at the time and my level of reading was not at that level. And she lent me the Harry Potter books and I got into it so much. And that was the first book I ever read, cover to cover. Right? So in a way, being infatuated and in love with her has kind of led me to where I am now. You know, because it gave me a lot of the sort of academic skills I needed to excel in school
6:03 Speaker 00 when those were not my natural capabilities.
6:08 Esther Perel? Those were not your natural capabilities? Or those were not your circumstances?
6:15 Speaker 00 Yeah, maybe. Maybe those were not my circumstances because I actually, I grew up in state care. So. Based on that you, you know, the expectations for my life were not ones that would have been predicted to where I am today.
6:36 Esther Perel? Um.
6:36 Speaker 00 In in terms of, you know, the academic achievements I've had, because I mean, I've just recently completed a PhD, so uh and, you know, have gone into living life as an academic.
6:52 Esther Perel? Um.
6:52 Speaker 00 Which you would not have predicted from where I started. But I think being exposed.
6:59 Esther Perel? If one looked at your capabilities, one may have predicted it.
7:06 Speaker 00 I'm not so sure.
7:08 Esther Perel? At your circumstances, one did not predict it.
7:13 Speaker 00 When I got to high school, I didn't feel like I could survive there. Because everyone was really ahead of me.
7:24 Esther Perel? Um hum.
7:25 Speaker 00 Academically, quite frankly, and I was a little bit behind in the class. But I don't know, I think.
7:32 Esther Perel? But that's because of what you were capable of, or because of what your life had been?
7:39 Speaker 00 Um, maybe both, I don't know.
7:41 Esther Perel? Um, okay.
7:43 Speaker 00 Yeah, I don't know. Um, but I think, yeah.
7:46 Esther Perel? I want you to remember this for when we get later.
7:49 Speaker 00 Yes.
7:50 Esther Perel? This is a very important distinction, and you just made a distinction for her too. No, she didn't love me in the way that I was in love with her. But she became a very good friend.
8:04 Speaker 00 Yes.
8:05 Esther Perel? And she cared, and she didn't really reject me. She said, I love you differently. Now, there's a rejection in that, but it wasn't like, I don't care about you, get out of my life.
8:20 Speaker 00 Right.
8:21 Esther Perel? It was, I don't care about you in this way, but I care about you greatly in other ways.
8:27 Speaker 00 Yeah.
8:29 Esther Perel? But something in that experience became paradigmatic for you. And expecting rejection.
8:43 Speaker 00 In in a way, yes, and I'm.
8:46 Esther Perel? Romantic rejection.
8:48 Speaker 00 Yes, I'm not sure. I'm very conscious of how it shows up. But I do know that that is a point of, it's like a touch point for me. Um, romantically.
9:01 Esther Perel? Tell me a little bit about your, you say I did and and my sex life, my romantic life. My love life is mostly with men. What's it been like?
9:14 Speaker 00 It started a little rocky, I would say, like I didn't know who I was. I um, I was a little bit just afraid of accepting this truth about myself. But as I've grown older and a little bit mature.
9:30 Esther Perel? How old were you then?
9:32 Speaker 00 I was um, around twenty, I think, so a bit of a late bloomer. My first experience was not one I would have chosen for myself, to be honest. But it is what it is. Um, so I I've come to acceptance in a way.
9:51 Esther Perel? Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, we're gonna slow it down a second, okay?
9:55 Speaker 00 Yeah.
9:58 Esther Perel? My first experience wasn't what I would have chosen for myself. Means it was different from what I had imagined? Or means it wasn't a good one?
10:10 Speaker 00 It was not a good one in in that I was um, pursued by someone who I was not attracted to. And I would say the person took advantage of me. But if I were to go back and choose, I would not have chosen to be with that person.
10:32 Speaker 00 And it was just that at the time, I suppose that person maybe had an insight about me that I didn't have. And they were able to pick up on this, I I guess, attraction and take advantage of it, not in a bad way. But just that they were able to connect with me sexually, but it wasn't. Um, you know, I would not have chosen to to be sexual with this person. It's just that the circumstances at the time contrived to deliver that outcome.
11:10 Esther Perel? Does that carry a mark for you? Does that leave, has that left you with a scar?
11:17 Speaker 00 No, I don't think so, because at the end of the day, I still had agency and choice, and I chose in that moment.
11:25 Esther Perel? Okay.
11:25 Speaker 00 Um, I just wish I had a little bit more insight about myself. So I could say, actually, that's not what I like. Or that's not who I like. But I only came to that realization long after the, the event. But nowadays, I'm a little more conscious of what I like, what I don't like, who I like, who I don't like. So I have a little bit more agency over my romantic choices. I don't think I would have learned that had I not gone through the, the original experience of having not being able to choose.
12:02 Esther Perel? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Any love stories?
12:07 Speaker 00 Yeah, um, so the most salient one is someone who I, I met in Jamaica. But he was migrating in like six months, but for that six months before he left. We were in a little bit of a whirlwind of a romance. And yeah, that was very life-changing for me. Because it, it was a relationship in which I got to show how much I could love someone and give myself to someone. And yeah, to this day, we still talk, we have a really strong connection. Even though we're at two different ends of the globe.
12:53 Speaker 00 Sometimes we go for months without talking. But when we pick up the phone and call each other, it's like no time has passed. Um, so, you know, that's been a beautiful love story. Yeah, and then when I came to New Zealand, I met someone who is Maori. And that relationship was deeply spiritual. And I think by nature, I, I'm a deeply spiritual person. And so we connected on this sort of spiritual level. And, you know, we were able to be. Each other's grounding, I guess. You know, because I was studying at the time and
13:36 Speaker 00 things had gotten kind of crazy with how I was just slavishly focused on school. And he was able to bring me back to reality and say, hey, there, there are other things other than the piece of paper you're trying to earn. Um, I know it's important you needed to build a new life you want to live, but there, there are other things that we can enjoy in life. So he took me a lot to his ancestral lands and we went hiking a lot and I got to really see the beauty of New Zealand, which I would not have seen otherwise because I was so laser focused on finishing my studies.
14:19 Speaker 00 Because I felt that, you know, that was my ticket to a better life. So, yeah, so I, I was really grateful for that period of my life, for that romance that opened me up to what being in love can do for you in terms of just, yeah, making your life a little bit more better than when you're on your own.
14:50 Esther Perel? We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.
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16:31 Esther Perel? And when did the memory of this girl kind of reemerge for you with the kind of intensity that it has now?
16:44 Speaker 00 I guess, yeah, in the last six months, maybe.
16:48 Esther Perel? And what happened? What brought this up for you? I mean, not that you had forgotten it.
16:54 Speaker 00 Yes, no.
16:55 Esther Perel? But it really, there was a resurgence of the memory, of the intensity of it, of the feeling that accompanied it. Of the sense that what you call unrequited love is, it's one-sided. It's, I will love someone, they will not love me back.
17:14 Speaker 00 Right.
17:15 Esther Perel? And that has become a kind of expectations. You anticipate this. It's not who she is, it's what you experienced with her and how that has now become a frame for you. I anticipate not being loved in return. I anticipate not having that sense of belonging.
17:40 Speaker 00 Um, I, I don't know exactly what brought it up, but I just remember thinking, I wonder what it would be like to just tell her thank you for what she's meant to my life.
17:57 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
17:58 Speaker 00 And, yeah, I, I just Googled her and saw that, you know, she's married now and probably has kids. And I, I, and I'm like, you know, this is a conversation I'll probably never be able to have. And I guess just the idea that that will never happen. You know, the fact that something is out of reach, I guess, makes you want it more. I don't know.
18:26 Esther Perel? What will never happen?
18:30 Speaker 00 Yeah, that kind of, that opportunity to say thank you.
18:36 Esther Perel? Why not? Why not?
18:37 Speaker 00 Um.
18:41 Speaker 00 I don't know. She's, she's difficult to reach, I guess. And I guess we're just different people now. I don't know.
18:50 Esther Perel? I did this podcast with this woman. And it occurred to me that a number of times in my life, when things started out painful,
19:09 Esther Perel? they actually turned into important lessons or transitions or opportunities. And it occurred to me that you were the first with whom I had actually experienced this.
19:25 Esther Perel? And, you know, we don't often write to people we met decades before. But I had this thought that I wanted to say thank you to you. I hope things are good and.
19:37 Esther Perel? I just wanted you to know my first book I read with you. And it's not just that I read them, it's that you gave them to me. It's that you gave me a grounding, a recognition, an opportunity, an ability to distinguish between circumstances and capabilities. I don't know why you were a Warden of the State, but I don't even know if she knew it. But I have a sense that there was, this was a school, a special school that you had been invited to attend?
20:12 Speaker 00 No, it was just the ordinary high school in the area, yeah.
20:17 Esther Perel? Okay, but not everyone didn't have a home?
20:20 Speaker 00 Right, yeah.
20:21 Esther Perel? Okay, and so in some way, when you think of her, she gave you a version of a, a small version of home?
20:30 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah.
20:33 Esther Perel? And I just wanted to drop you a few lines because
20:38 Esther Perel? we don't always thank the people on our trajectory who were very significant and don't even know they were.
20:49 Esther Perel? What would it be like if you had a variation of this letter? If, when you hear it out loud, what's it like?
20:58 Speaker 00 Yeah, no, I think I've written this letter several times, but just have not been able to find her contact to send it.
21:09 Speaker 00 Yeah, but this is a letter I, I think about a lot and I carry it with me. It's like a place I go to in difficult times. Because as you say, it's, it was a sort of base for me in my life.
21:30 Esther Perel? Say more.
21:32 Speaker 00 Um, just that experience, as you say, of being acknowledged, of being seen, gave me so much and I'm so grateful to her. And just often want to to say that. I often say that actually. Uh, you know, to myself, you know, sometimes when I'm I'm in a really good season, I'll just, you know, whisper to myself, thank you, even though she can't hear it. And I think my thoughts around this question of unrequited love is how do you hold that candle of gratitude for someone who will never know how much they meant to you?
22:18 Esther Perel? Hmm.
22:21 Esther Perel? What do you think?
22:23 Speaker 00 I don't know. This is, it's a puzzle, I I think, because people people move through different phases in life. And she might be at a phase of her life where even hearing that, she might not even be able to receive it. I don't know. But this is just one of my thoughts about this whole idea of unrequited love. There are so many different permutations of people who we love, but who don't know that we love them. And there are many lives that you could have lived with many different people who come across your path.
23:09 Speaker 00 And my thoughts have just been about wondering what that path would have been like, you know? Because it's one of many paths that could have happened, but it didn't happen, right?
23:23 Esther Perel? You feel deserving of it?
23:27 Speaker 00 Of late, I have become more convinced that I absolutely am. I never felt that way, but as I've gotten more connected with myself, I know that without a shadow of a doubt, it's absolutely what I deserve. And I think, in a way, there's a sort of conceit about this whole process of loving someone who will never love me back, because in that process of loving her, I think I sort of fell in love with myself.
24:11 Speaker 00 I don't know how to explain that, but I made myself into a person she would have wanted to be with, because I saw the qualities that she admired and so forth. And in turning myself into that person, I realized, oh, I actually like that person as well, that I have become and I'm becoming each day. And that's where the whole idea of me feeling that I deserve it has come from, in that when I look at how I have transformed, you know, I sometimes up and say, you know, wow, you're actually quite wonderful.
24:55 Speaker 00 And to be able to say that to myself is a bit of a gift, I think.
25:01 Esther Perel? Absolutely.
25:02 Speaker 00 Yeah, of having not been in love with the person I desire, but through that whole process, I became that person in a way.
25:12 Esther Perel? So do we still wanna call it unrequited love, or does it change title?
25:17 Speaker 00 The, I don't know.
25:21 Speaker 00 I don't know.
25:23 Esther Perel? In Loving You, I Came to Love Myself?
25:28 Speaker 00 Hmm.
25:33 Esther Perel? And you gave me so much, not unrequited at all. You gave me so much. And I knew how to take it. And I knew how to transform it into something beautiful.
25:50 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, I love that because the version I ended up with was one that was transformative for me.
26:00 Esther Perel? Yes, she became a muse for you. She became a catalyst for you. And for all you know, she may not remember at all. Or she may never have thought it was such a big deal. Or she actually may have thought that she was doing something really good. And that the giver changes the life of the receiver. But the receiver also changes the life of the giver. And one way sometimes that people get to say thank you, even if they don't get to meet the person, is by what they pass on. Is their own transmission.
26:45 Esther Perel? It's by them becoming a light for someone else. And kind of privately knowing where it comes from. That the torch they carry didn't start with them. That someone else, when they shed light on them. Do you have a receiver at this moment in your life?
27:10 Speaker 00 Um, yes, I do. I think my students, because I teach. And um, my younger brother, I try to be a light for him.
27:22 Esther Perel? And is he a receiver?
27:26 Speaker 00 Oh, very much so.
27:30 Esther Perel? And do you feel that there is a kind of a mirror experience going on?
27:36 Speaker 00 Yeah, absolutely, I think so. And I think, well, the beauty of it is that, you know, he tells me often that I am his light. So it's beautiful to have that acknowledgement. So it's not so requited from that perspective. I I'm able to see in real time the impact of my my giving. And and it's quite gratifying.
28:06 Esther Perel? And she may have done the same.
28:12 Speaker 00 And you know, I actually, I forgot about something.
28:15 Esther Perel? Tell me.
28:16 Speaker 00 When you finish high school, those two years where you sort of do like, it's like that period before university, those two years like college years. So for my two years, we call it sixth form in Jamaica. I went to a different sixth form. It was a little bit more prestigious. It was like a all-boys boarding school with a long tradition of educating prime ministers and business leaders. And this is where all of the sort of upper crust of Jamaican boys would go to. Somehow I I ended up there.
28:54 Esther Perel? No, not somehow, not somehow.
29:01 Esther Perel? That that didn't, you know, that's why I ask you if you feel deserving. You didn't just somehow, nobody gets somehow into those places.
29:11 Speaker 00 That's true.
29:12 Esther Perel? Own it. It's beautiful.
29:16 Esther Perel? It's beautiful. You have a smile that smiles to life.
29:20 Speaker 00 Thank you.
29:21 Esther Perel? You worked so hard for it. And you didn't always get the proper supports for it. And I don't know anything about your story. But I can sense that you did a lot of this alone.
29:35 Speaker 00 Yeah.
29:36 Esther Perel? But you knew when to take the book and the fruit and the gifts from people who were giving to you, who may or may not even have known your story either. You know, there's often someone in the classroom who doesn't go home when the school day ends.
29:53 Esther Perel? And nobody knows that they're not going home and that they don't go to a ready-made dinner and that etcetera, etcetera. And they hide in the midst and they wanna feel that they belong and they they they copy, they copy what they see so that people think that they're one of them.
30:09 Speaker 00 Yeah.
30:09 Esther Perel? But in fact, sometimes they live in a car. Sometimes they live in the warden of the state, sometimes there's just no one home. Tell me.
30:23 Speaker 00 Yeah, no, I I was just, yeah, thinking of that journey. Yeah, it was pretty lonely. There was a lot of help along the way and a lot of people who poured into me. And it it still feels a little lonely now because I I'm in a in a bit of a career transition, let's say. So now I I need to draw more from that journey that, you know, and remind myself that, hey, you've you've been through this before. This is just another version of it at a higher level.
31:07 Speaker 00 So you're not alone and you're gonna be fine. You just need to remember that that you're loved and that you have everything you need for the rest of your journey.
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31:44 Speaker 03 This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. You can go deep, keep it on the ground, or draw up something nobody sees coming. And whether you wanna run a flea flicker or the tush push, you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.
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33:15 Esther Perel? Who's shedding a light on you right now?
33:20 Speaker 00 I don't think I have anyone right now. Which is why I'm drawing so much on my inner resources. And which is maybe why the memory is coming up so much, you know?
33:34 Esther Perel? The last time I remember that acute sense of loneliness
33:41 Esther Perel? brought me back to seeing myself as this young boy in class?
33:48 Speaker 00 Yeah.
33:49 Esther Perel? Okay.
33:51 Speaker 00 The last time I think now is, I would say it's every day now.
33:56 Speaker 00 So I have a meditation practice and a journaling practice. So I begin my day with that because I know the road is lonely, right? So that's my self-care in a way. And yeah, this memory, I think, is part of what's...
34:21 Speaker 00 It's part of the care as well, because as you say, it allows me to remember, you know, the journey. It allows me to remember that I've survived this before. And it allows me to know I have some tools in my toolkit. I'm not so alone and I'm not so, yeah, I'm not as undeserving as I, as I sometimes think I am.
34:51 Esther Perel? Same.
34:54 Speaker 00 Yeah. So now, in this new sort of academic career that I'm trying to establish, it can be really, really difficult, you know, and because you are trying to basically create new knowledge and contribute to academic conversations. If you're a young academic, you know, you're competing with people who are already well established. So it can feel a little intimidating. So yes, I have to sort of really have that inner check with myself
35:38 Speaker 00 to remind myself that, hey, I've come this far and I have what it takes.
35:45 Esther Perel? I assume, I hope, not, maybe mistakenly, but I assume there are not many Jamaicans in New Zealand?
35:53 Speaker 00 Uh, no.
35:57 Esther Perel? So how is that?
35:59 Speaker 00 Um, it's really difficult and especially because it's so far away. So it's not like you can jump on a plane and, and go for a visit, um.
36:12 Esther Perel? And culturally different?
36:15 Speaker 00 I mean, I'm okay with the culture because it suits a lot of my personality, you know. It's one of the reasons I left Jamaica, is I feel more at home here. So that's not an issue for me, but I do know the value of community. I I don't have that so much here, but I do have friends, African friends. They're in different parts of the country, but we do try to get together every now and again. And that helps, um, so I'm I'm I'm grateful for that.
36:51 Esther Perel? Because otherwise, there's racial loneliness as well.
36:54 Speaker 00 Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And most times, I'm the only black person in a room, you know, and you you feel it.
37:03 Esther Perel? Of course you feel it.
37:05 Speaker 00 Yeah.
37:06 Esther Perel? Of course you feel it.
37:08 Speaker 00 Yeah. And even ju- just last two months ago, I went to Cambridge University for a conference. And yeah, I just felt so alone, like when I I I was presenting some of my research. And in the morning before I went to present, I had to go in the bathroom and like really catch myself because I I started to cry because of just how lonely I felt, yeah.
37:46 Speaker 00 Um, yeah.
37:49 Esther Perel? Um.
37:50 Speaker 00 It's.
37:54 Esther Perel? It's okay, it's okay.
38:02 Esther Perel? I'm right here.
38:06 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's it's been a long journey. I mean,
38:12 Speaker 00 yeah, that
38:16 Speaker 00 that conference was at the Royal Society. This is where Isaac Newton wrote his first discoveries and, you know, standing in that place as a black man,
38:34 Esther Perel? Hmm.
38:35 Speaker 00 as a descendant of slaves, I was, yeah, I was just,
38:42 Speaker 00 yeah, just so blown away.
38:45 Esther Perel? Proud.
38:45 Speaker 00 Yes, I was proud.
38:47 Esther Perel? Proud and lonely.
38:48 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
38:56 Speaker 00 But yeah, it's one of the things I I wish, you know, was that I I wish she could see me
39:05 Speaker 00 because that journey was because of her, you know, I just really wanna say thank you.
39:19 Speaker 00 I really just wanna say thank you cuz I I would not have gotten there if she had not been a friend to me.
39:31 Esther Perel? Hmm.
39:37 Esther Perel? You will find a way to thank her. You're a researcher. You can write to her and find her address.
39:47 Esther Perel? Do you have family?
39:49 Speaker 00 Yes, yes, I do.
39:53 Esther Perel? But she has come to represent the family to whom you wanna show who you've become.
40:02 Speaker 00 Yeah.
40:03 Esther Perel? Hmm, she's she's the standing.
40:07 Speaker 00 In a way, yes.
40:11 Esther Perel? She's the representative.
40:15 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think so.
40:20 Esther Perel? How do you call her?
40:24 Speaker 00 Her name is Sheriann.
40:27 Esther Perel? Maybe she's listening.
40:31 Esther Perel? You're welcome to thank her right here, right now.
40:36 Speaker 00 Yeah, well, yeah, Sheriann, if you are listening, yeah, I just wanna say thank you um for everything you've meant to me. And, yeah, for just seeing me and um giving me the opportunity to become who I am today.
41:06 Speaker 00 So, thank you.
41:09 Esther Perel? Do you think she will understand immediately?
41:14 Speaker 00 I'm, I, I'm not sure because I don't know where her life is at now. And I suppose after marriage and kids, you're, you're a different person, you know? Um, but I hope, I hope she understands.
41:32 Esther Perel? Did she know where you were going at the end of school?
41:36 Speaker 00 So, right, so the story I was gonna tell was that when I left the high school we were at together and went to this more prestigious college, we entered a public speaking competition and our two schools were competing. And we were actually on opposite sides. And I, I mean, normally she wins all of these competitions. But I, it turns out that at that time, I won. And she came up to me after and just said how much I deserved to win. She said, "After I heard your speech, I was just so blown away. And I just want you to know how proud I am of you."
42:22 Speaker 00 Um, so I think she, she knew, yeah, she knew. Um, because that competition opened up a lot of doors. You know, I ended up going to compete in the regional competition. That was my first time travelling abroad. And just opened my eyes to, you know, more of the world. Um, so I think, yeah, at that competition, she really sort of acknowledged, you know, that, yeah, I really see great things for you.
42:54 Esther Perel? Um.
42:55 Speaker 00 And she really did say how proud she was that I, that I won that competition, even though she would have liked to have won it.
43:04 Esther Perel? Right, two separate things, two separate things, um. And when you think of her, when you bring her with you to Cambridge,
43:18 Esther Perel? did you feel slightly less alone? Did you feel wrapped in her love for you? Not in the unrequited, in the love, in the pride, in the support, in the gifting, in the giving?
43:34 Speaker 00 Uh, no, I don't know. But Cambridge did something to me in that I, I've never been afraid of loneliness. In fact, I always embrace it. But being in Cambridge, um, just, I don't know, made it so unbearable in a way.
43:57 Esther Perel? May I ask you something?
43:59 Speaker 00 Yeah.
44:01 Esther Perel? Was there ever a sense from you that as you reach for more status, achievement, dignity,
44:15 Esther Perel? deserving, respect, accomplishment?
44:21 Esther Perel? Academic recognition, all of it. That in fact you would one day feel less lonely.
44:30 Esther Perel? Compared to how you had sometimes felt as a child and as a young boy. And that in fact, the more you were reaching
44:42 Esther Perel? and achieving, the opposite was actually happening.
44:48 Speaker 00 Well, you know, I always knew that the life of wisdom and knowledge is a lonely life. Because when you
45:01 Speaker 00 pursue knowledge, you are seeing the world in ways that others don't. And you have information and depths of insight that others don't have. So I always sort of knew it was a lonely road. I just didn't know how lonely it is actually.
45:27 Esther Perel? If we go back to your original question.
45:34 Esther Perel? I don't know if the story was a story of unrequited love.
45:40 Esther Perel? Or if the story was limited no title.
45:49 Speaker 00 I don't know what the new title is.
45:51 Esther Perel? What do you think we talked about? What is really the essence of what we talked about?
45:58 Speaker 00 The only thing I can think of is saying thank you. It sounds simple, but having the opportunity to acknowledge another.
46:09 Speaker 00 To acknowledge what people mean to you. And how they've impacted your life.
46:15 Esther Perel? And I will add another piece to it if you allow me. When I thank the people who have impacted me, I know I am not alone.
46:30 Esther Perel? If they've impacted me, then I know that even when I felt lonely,
46:37 Esther Perel? I wasn't alone.
46:42 Esther Perel? Does that land on you?
46:44 Speaker 00 Yes, definitely.
46:47 Esther Perel? And one of the reasons why thanking her became so important at the moment when I felt so lonely is because in the act itself of gratitude
47:03 Esther Perel? lies the connection to another person.
47:09 Esther Perel? You're saying yes with your head.
47:11 Speaker 00 Yeah.
47:12 Esther Perel? You're saying yes to what?
47:15 Speaker 00 Yeah, that, you know, gratitude really opens up that portal of connection. And it's healing.
47:29 Speaker 00 Ultimately, it's love, I mean, you know.
47:34 Esther Perel? Yep.
47:38 Esther Perel? Thank you. Thank you for joining me in this conversation.
47:43 Speaker 00 It was my pleasure. Thank you for, yeah, allowing me the space to process this with you.
47:51 Esther Perel? Let me know if the thank you reaches her.
47:57 Speaker 00 I will.
47:58 Esther Perel? Okay?
47:59 Speaker 00 Yes.
48:00 Esther Perel? All right.
48:01 Speaker 00 All right. Bye bye.
48:02 Esther Perel? Goodbye.
48:03 Speaker 00 Yeah.
48:19 Speaker 06 This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther that could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to [email protected] .
48:41 Speaker 06 Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julianne Hat. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.
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