Pod Insights Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel The One Who Stays and the One Who Goes About this episode They met in vet school and married just as they reached graduation. But now his work takes him around the world, forcing them to live apart for months at a time. He’s ready to start a family, but she’s hesitant: how can they think about children when they’re often separated by distance? As they wonder about their next phase of life, Esther helps them uncover what sits beneath the surface: the loneliness of the one who stays, the guilt of the one who goes, and the challenge of learning to stay connected across miles of separation.
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Transcript 7,561 words · 10 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Speaker 00 None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin? is a one-time counselling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real.
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1:31 Esther Perel? They met in veterinary school, and they were five years together, where they had very much of a shared reality, both professionally and on a daily basis.
1:42 Speaker 04 I always joke that if you can get through vet school together, you can pretty much do anything. I was basically in the trenches together, trying to get through that.
1:51 Speaker 05 I mean, we have both been through just kind of very stressful, you know, veterinary school. It's not a walk in the park.
1:59 Esther Perel? Now he's in graduate school and that has taken him into the field for months on end. And there have been a lot of challenges about how they are both living different realities.
2:13 Speaker 05 He travels often for his work, usually gone for weeks to months, which leaves me working my full-time job, dealing with all of our animals and the house by myself, which can be really taxing for me.
2:33 Speaker 04 I am extremely passionate about what I do. Every time I get an opportunity to work in Kenya where I work, it feels like a life-changing experience. Really impactful, personal growth and opportunity. And I have incredibly close relationships with the people who I work with.
2:51 Speaker 05 And when he comes back, he is excited to share this experience that he had, which was so positive for him, but unfortunately was so negative for me that it can make that conversation difficult.
3:07 Esther Perel? And it has brought up a lot of other challenges around intimacy, trust, togetherness and separateness. And around the next developmental question, can we talk about having a child?
3:22 Speaker 04 International travel has definitely featured in the discussion that we've been having about starting a family, or rather the discussion we haven't been having.
3:30 Speaker 05 He is wanting to take that next step in his life, wanting to start a family. And I don't feel ready for that.
3:39 Speaker 04 A few months ago, I brought it up again and the response that I got was, "We can talk about it in October." The target keeps moving. If the answer is no, that's truly devastating. But what's worse than a no is just being led on, basically. Like, there's never any kind of resolution.
3:58 Speaker 05 I feel myself constantly saying, "But can you see it from my perspective? Do you understand why I feel the way that I feel?"
4:08 Esther Perel? The session was on Zoom because they both claimed challenges around their professional schedules. And there were eight pets that joined us for the session: guinea pigs, cats, dogs. They were very present, they made noise, they came to comfort, they had the physical experience that I did not have. So when they talk about bringing in a child into the family, it's because they already define themselves as a family.
4:47 Esther Perel? All right.
4:49 Esther Perel? Give me a sense as to why we are here today and what would make this a helpful conversation?
4:58 Speaker 06 Well, I feel like I could start since I'm the one who did reach out. So I was sort of feeling desperate, like I don't know how to change the conversation we're having.
5:09 Esther Perel? Okay.
5:10 Speaker 06 Because what we've been talking about in terms of having kids or starting a family, I would say we already have a family with all of our pets, but I would say non-pet family.
5:21 Esther Perel? Are any of them present in our session today?
5:24 Speaker 06 Oh, there's a lot.
5:25 Speaker 07 Yes.
5:26 Esther Perel? Right here?
5:27 Speaker 06 Yes.
5:28 Speaker 07 There's one there.
5:29 Esther Perel? Okay.
5:30 Speaker 07 I have four in the room.
5:33 Speaker 06 There's a couple of dogs down there. I have a bunch of guinea pigs right here to my left. So it's sort of a zoo.
5:40 Esther Perel? All right. And are they important participants in the conversation about children?
5:52 Speaker 07 I would say yes.
5:54 Speaker 06 I would say yes in two ways. One, I think we've demonstrated an ability to care for animals and be caregivers. But two, it really comes into play when we talk about me being gone for long periods of time, which has been a sticking point of this conversation.
6:16 Esther Perel? So, explain just a tiny bit, you you travel for work?
6:22 Speaker 06 Yeah, so we both went to veterinary school together. And then she is a clinician. I fell in love with research and specifically working internationally. And now I'm in the final year of my PhD and have plans to continue my international vet medicine slash research career. During the PhD, I was basically abroad for two months of the year. And it's a bit of a conflict because if I'm successful in my career, I'll continue traveling. But it feels like it's coming at the expense of starting a family
7:05 Speaker 06 due to the logistical and other difficulties around it. So I think that's a big barrier.
7:10 Esther Perel? And that is something that the two of you see, or that's just your point of view?
7:22 Esther Perel? Because you share a lot. You went to school together, so you you definitely had a very much of a shared reality. And in effect, you may have had to talk about things less because you were both living some of the same things. And the shared reality spoke for itself.
7:42 Esther Perel? Um, so you find yourself now needing to communicate because after five years you did graduate school together, you are now in a developmental stage that is one of differentiation in which each of you is trying to define themselves. You're in a process of needing to articulate
8:04 Esther Perel? your needs, your pursuits, your ambitions. A whole range of things to articulate that are no longer provided by the circumstances of your life alone.
8:18 Esther Perel? Does that make sense?
8:20 Speaker 07 Yeah, definitely.
8:21 Esther Perel? So, what about that rank through for you?
8:25 Speaker 07 Well, so I would one hundred percent agree that us going to school together, that it was very much of a shared experience. I personally have found that in our professional life, things have gotten a little more difficult for us communication wise because we're both very passionate about our professional lives and it, you know, it's basically kind of all we do. Um, but I think that like he can sometimes get quite frustrated because I don't participate in as much back and forth and true conversation about his research and stuff because I just don't have the understanding that he does. So I try to be an active listener and engage when I can.
9:10 Speaker 07 But because I don't have the same curiosity about the subject that he does, I know that that frustrates him.
9:16 Esther Perel? Can I ask you?
9:17 Speaker 07 Yeah, sure.
9:19 Esther Perel? You say, my interest is there.
9:25 Esther Perel? Does he trust it?
9:27 Speaker 07 It feels like he doesn't.
9:29 Esther Perel? Okay, so that's, you see, it's less content and topic related and it's more relational.
9:37 Speaker 07 Mm hmm.
9:40 Esther Perel? What good does it do for you to say I'm really care and I'm interested? And I'm an active listener? If he doesn't believe it, or if it somehow doesn't come through?
9:53 Speaker 07 Mm hmm.
9:55 Esther Perel? What is it that we are each doing? That lends the other person that lack of trust?
10:04 Speaker 06 Yeah, maybe I could just add something. Cause when you initially were saying about divergent paths post grad school.
10:14 Esther Perel? Mm hmm.
10:14 Speaker 06 That really resonated with me and I think something that's very characteristic of that is the actual experience that I have working abroad and it's really meaningful to me professionally, but also personally. Living and working in a different culture and having these experiences with my collaborators and also community members who I get to work really closely with. And one thing that happens.
10:42 Speaker 06 Is I have a really hard time coming back to the US unlike reentry.
10:48 Esther Perel? Um hum.
10:48 Speaker 06 Um. It's almost like reverse culture shock.
10:51 Esther Perel? And you rely, this is a question, do you feel that you rely strongly on her overtly or covertly to help you cross the bridge and reenter?
11:06 Speaker 06 Well, I think the issue with that is honestly, I would like to rely on her more, but often what happens is that I feel guilty for enjoying my time there so much.
11:16 Esther Perel? Um hum.
11:16 Speaker 06 Because the message that I get is.
11:19 Esther Perel? Hold on.
11:20 Speaker 06 You're finally back.
11:21 Esther Perel? Hold on, hold on. Say it to her directly.
11:25 Speaker 06 Yeah, so when I come back, it's very hard for me to rely on you to help that process because I have a lingering sense of guilt for being gone. And also for liking what I'm doing so much while you are having a hard time.
11:52 Speaker 07 I think the hard part for me is that he enjoys.
11:55 Esther Perel? Talk, talk to him, talk to him.
11:59 Esther Perel? You came here to talk to each other differently. I heard your initial statement. How do we change the conversation between us? It doesn't matter what we start to talk about. We're certainly not gonna start talking about the most challenging, which is kids. Okay?
12:16 Speaker 07 Okay.
12:19 Speaker 07 So when you come back, it feels like we are not good enough.
12:29 Esther Perel? Who is we?
12:30 Speaker 07 We as in me and all of the menagerie.
12:36 Speaker 07 Of animals.
12:37 Speaker 06 All the animals.
12:37 Speaker 07 That one day, if that conversation of a family is alive and present, there's gonna be more than just a me and the animals. And whenever you come back, it just feels like you're so upset about not being there, that you're not present with us. Like, the last time you came back, you didn't even wanna give me a hug or a kiss. Like, it was after being alone for months. That's what makes it really hard for me, is that you come home and you're so frustrated that you're back.
13:13 Esther Perel? But that's not how you feel. That's how you perceive him.
13:18 Speaker 07 Mm hmm.
13:19 Esther Perel? If I understand what you're saying about how you feel, when you come back, I feel more lonely even than when you're gone.
13:29 Speaker 07 Yeah, that's true.
13:32 Speaker 07 Yep.
13:32 Speaker 06 For like a week, for like two weeks.
13:37 Speaker 07 But it.
13:39 Esther Perel? And you're trying to, eh, hold on, hold on. What did you try to do with this? What was this comment about? Meaning to say, I don't stay in that state, it takes me a week or two.
13:53 Speaker 06 It's a transitional state, yeah.
13:54 Esther Perel? Right. But another week or two, after two months.
14:01 Speaker 06 Yeah.
14:02 Esther Perel? For you, it's just two weeks. For her, it's two, three months plus two weeks.
14:09 Speaker 06 Yeah, I think if I can respond to that, so.
14:13 Esther Perel? Oh, she was in the middle of something, so we're gonna let her.
14:16 Speaker 06 Keep going.
14:16 Esther Perel? Continue, yes, and I'm sure you have responses. Perhaps this is more about what really goes on for her?
14:29 Esther Perel? Cause you're very busy with what goes on for you.
14:36 Esther Perel? Can we try that?
14:37 Speaker 06 Yeah.
14:38 Esther Perel? Okay. Go ahead.
14:42 Speaker 07 Um.
14:45 Speaker 07 It just feels like, again, we're just not exciting enough. I know you have wanderlust and that's okay. I think it's hard for me because I don't get that opportunity. I don't have the flexibility to do the stuff that you do. And some of that is because I'm a major provider for our family and our lifestyle. And I feel that pressure of, well, if I'm not working, then these things can't happen. And so I think that's where maybe some of this pent-up frustration and loneliness and everything comes from because I, it feels like I'm in a constant hamster wheel
15:28 Speaker 07 of my day-to-day and you get this exciting life where you can do whatever you want. And I don't know.
15:37 Speaker 06 Well, I think it's because you can't have your perfect career. You know, I get to pursue my dreams and your dreams are put on the back burner.
15:50 Esther Perel? It's a striking moment. Someone has just said, I don't feel that we matter. And after all that, he says it's because you don't get to do what you really want to do. That is a response that doesn't really invite one to feel heard. It doesn't feel to me that he is truly listening to her to understand what she may be experiencing. I have more of a sense that he's listening in order to justify, rationalize, and that no matter what she's trying to say about how she feels, he comes back with an explanation and she relinquishes.
16:32 Esther Perel? And I'm beginning to experience that it is not a given for her to claim her space. What she's actually talking about is how she thinks he doesn't value her and he seems to be disappointed at his home and he seems to be frustrated. When in fact, what she's really trying to say is, I feel very lonely when you're gone, but I feel even more lonely when you're back. And that is when I'm beginning to ask, is this indicative of more? This doesn't feel to me like it's just a one-time thing. These begin to feel like patterns.
17:12 Speaker 07 Well, my dreams weren't support. What we, we want to be doing in our life right now. Right now, that's just not in the cards. So yeah, there is a level of me being frustrated about that.
17:27 Speaker 06 I, I personally see a lot of our parent dynamics playing out in this scenario. Growing up, my dad was gone for four months out of the year for work. And that was just normal for me.
17:39 Esther Perel? Can you give me a tiny bit of context for this?
17:44 Speaker 06 So my parents are wildlife biologists. They work in the field. My dad's kind of retired now, but growing up, you know, there were four months of the year that he was in the field, quite far away, at least within the US. And that was just sort of a normal rhythm of life. But I know being gone for him was really difficult. And I think he was very lonely. And I know he really missed being at home.
18:13 Esther Perel? And you?
18:15 Speaker 06 Me in terms of like that period?
18:17 Esther Perel? No, me, I decided that I was gonna do this better. And I wasn't gonna be lonely when I travel.
18:32 Esther Perel? Actually, his question was the one I should have stayed with. Were you lonely? There is a story to the loneliness of the person who is gone and the loneliness of the person who stays and the loneliness of the children who are in the center of this whole thing. I do think that there is a dialogue between him and her that is happening, but also between him and the boy that he was, and maybe between him and his father.
19:04 Esther Perel? We have to take a brief break. Stay with us.
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20:40 Esther Perel? Do you ever miss home when you travel? Or you're so satiated in your assignment that it feels like it's another world? And you don't really know how to maintain the connection?
20:57 Speaker 06 Yeah, I would say that. When I'm doing that work, I have a really good ability to focus on like a goal. I'm like singularly focused on collecting the data, making the connections. Everything is really, really intensive.
21:15 Esther Perel? So what I'm hearing from you is I have no problem being away, but I compartmentalize to such a degree that I don't know how to hold on. You know, your challenge is the opposite of your dad. Your dad couldn't be away. You can't stay connected. You want a kid, but it's not clear that you will know how to stay connected to the kid. Who stays back? So you've kind of taken out all the difficult pieces. The loss and the longing. You've plucked out and you've kept the adventure.
21:51 Esther Perel? And when you come back, I don't know if you relate to what your wife says to you. And she says, this is weird thing. There's something in the two-week period that leaves your wife feeling that she pales in comparison.
22:10 Esther Perel? And she understands your passion, but she doesn't like the feeling that emanates toward her from your passion.
22:21 Esther Perel? And when you respond to her, you go right back to your passion. And I don't know if you ever address that icky feeling that she gets.
22:38 Speaker 06 Yeah, it's really tied up with guilt for me.
22:40 Esther Perel? Okay. But the guilt is for how much you enjoy being out there? Or the guilt is for how little enthusiasm you have for coming home?
22:52 Esther Perel? Because you always talk about, I feel guilty about how much fun I'm having out there. And I'm wondering, where is the reflection on how little enthusiasm?
23:05 Esther Perel? To the point where no kiss, no hug, just kind of let down?
23:10 Speaker 06 Yeah. I have a hard time with that example because the no kiss, no hug thing was because I literally lost part of my luggage, but.
23:20 Esther Perel? How many days did it take you to get to the hug and the kiss after that?
23:24 Speaker 06 Yeah.
23:25 Esther Perel? So, don't.
23:28 Speaker 06 Well, I think it happened that day, just not at the airport.
23:32 Speaker 07 Right, it was maybe hours later, but after. Not seeing you for eight weeks.
23:39 Speaker 06 There wasn't like the excitement running to each other across the terminal. I mean, I mean, I'm being a little. Dramatic, but just there wasn't that moment. Yeah, I think the guilt, so there's something I remember from two years ago that really. Defines it. When you called me trying to get the snow blower to work. Do you remember this? So there's a big time difference, right? I think it's eight hours. So it was like six or seven in the morning for you, so it was like.
24:12 Speaker 07 It was four o'clock in the morning for me, cause I had to go to work at six AM.
24:17 Speaker 06 Got it, four o'clock.
24:18 Speaker 07 Sorry, I shouldn't have interrupted.
24:20 Speaker 06 And so I'm sitting on the phone with you. And you are frustratingly trying to use the snow blower. To clear our very short driveway, which is something that I would do. And we of course learn later that the shear pins are broken, doesn't matter, basically it wasn't working and it wasn't gonna work. And so I'm sort of sitting there on the phone thinking. What the heck am I supposed to do in this situation? If I was at home, I would. Figure this out. And so a lot of that guilt. For me is like those things that I would normally be taking care of, I can't. I am not there to help you.
25:05 Speaker 06 And to me, that's where the guilt is coming from a lot.
25:13 Speaker 07 I remember that story very differently, but that's okay.
25:16 Speaker 06 No, I'm actually would love to hear what you remember of it, cause it's so clear to me. I was like on the phone like shit, like I don't know how to solve this. I can't do anything.
25:27 Speaker 07 Well, as I said, I remember it being four o'clock in the morning, not seven or eight. Cause it was dark.
25:35 Speaker 06 I had the time on, yeah.
25:38 Speaker 07 Our three hundred foot long driveway, not short driveway, that was covered in about six plus inches of wet, heavy snow. Before I had to leave and be gone at work all day for twelve hours and leave our pets alone. In the middle of winter and I was on the verge of tears because I was so frustrated that I was gonna be late for work. And needing your help, yes, there was a component where that he could not help me, um. But I didn't know what else to do. Who was I gonna call at four o'clock in the morning to help me?
26:21 Speaker 07 And that was only within the first couple of weeks of you being gone for the first time. And that for me is what kind of sealed the experience in a lot of ways that this is not fun, which is why I said you're not allowed to go in the middle of winter anymore. Although now I have a plow guy that comes and plows our driveway that I had to find.
26:41 Speaker 06 That's what I was gonna say is like, the end of that story is you called the guy up the street who runs a plow business and now he just does it.
26:49 Speaker 07 But that didn't change that experience.
26:54 Speaker 06 Right.
26:58 Esther Perel? She has now tried three times
27:02 Esther Perel? to talk about her distress
27:06 Esther Perel? in various different forms. First by making the time accurate. It was the middle of the night. Second, by telling him that it wasn't a short drive, but it's actually a long drive. And third, by telling him that the fact that she was able to find someone to help her with the snow blower didn't change her experience emotionally. So she's not giving up. But she's doing it in a very gentle and a very minor way.
27:43 Esther Perel? I'm going to wind us back a moment.
27:48 Esther Perel? Because you brought in this example to talk about the difference between feeling guilty about how much you enjoy your immersion on your field work versus how guilty you may feel about the disconnect when you come home. And when you described the situation and you're saying, "I felt so bad that I couldn't help. I couldn't do anything."
28:20 Esther Perel? Did you communicate that?
28:23 Speaker 06 Not well at the time, I don't think so. I think I was just like, "You could try this." I was trying to problem solve.
28:30 Esther Perel? So you are great problem solvers, both of you.
28:36 Esther Perel? But what you could add is a little more padding.
28:41 Esther Perel? "I'm so sorry you have to deal with this." It's not the same as, "I don't know what to do."
28:49 Speaker 06 Yeah.
28:50 Esther Perel? "I feel bad for you for having to deal with this in the middle of the night like this. I hate to see you alone, having to do all of this." That's padding. And that is a piece to learn and to introduce in the way that you communicate.
29:11 Esther Perel? That's why she's calling. She's not calling for you to solve. She understands that you can't handle it and especially if the machine is broken, there's not much you're going to do. She's smart.
29:24 Esther Perel? Now, I'm not sure that you know that that's what you're asking from him either. This is a dimension that is kind of kept tucked under between the two of you.
29:37 Esther Perel? Because you are problem solvers and so you don't address the problem of the emotions, which don't have a solution. They're just paradoxes that you manage,
29:51 Esther Perel? not problems that you solve.
29:56 Speaker 06 That's a great way to put it.
29:59 Speaker 06 Maybe if I can ask a question, would that experience have been different for you if I had just been supportive as opposed to? I don't know how well you remember what I was saying, but.
30:10 Esther Perel? Doesn't matter, it has happened many times.
30:13 Speaker 06 Yeah.
30:14 Esther Perel? And it's a beautiful question you just asked. That's a relational question. That's not about the snow or the blow, that's about your wife.
30:26 Speaker 07 Um, I think it would. I do feel like in general, you tend to jump to problem solving, which I've just grown accustomed to at this point. And I don't necessarily hold it against you, but I know you don't like to hear someone just to invent. But sometimes that's what I need.
30:50 Esther Perel? I need to be able to call you in the middle of feeling bad.
30:53 Speaker 07 Yeah.
30:54 Esther Perel? While I know that you can't help me to feel better.
30:58 Speaker 07 Mm hmm.
30:59 Esther Perel? The issue is I'm really frustrated and I'm not blaming you for it either. I'm just frustrated with the situation.
31:05 Speaker 07 Mm hmm.
31:07 Esther Perel? But because you feel guilty, you don't know how to give her the space to feel bad. Or you're gonna say, there's nothing I can do about it. And I'm gonna say you can do a ton, which is simply to be there for her.
31:19 Speaker 06 Mm hmm.
31:22 Esther Perel? Would that make a difference for you?
31:27 Speaker 07 I think it would. A lot of the time of where he's gone, it very much feels like I can't talk about the challenges that I'm experiencing because he's gonna feel guilty about it. It's, well, why'd you bring that up? Now I feel guilty because I can't do anything about it. And I think that if I had more of that emotional support, I think that would definitely. Make me at least feel more seen of just like this person that's here to care for the animals and the house so that there's not a fire. Speaking of fires, there's a lot of fires that I have to put out when you're not here.
32:09 Speaker 07 And it definitely, again, going back to that whole conversation of guilt, I feel like I can't express how I'm feeling because then you'll feel guilty. And that's never been my goal, and I'm pretty sure I've even said that multiple times of like, I'm not saying this to make you feel guilty.
32:30 Esther Perel? We only have one session and we have three hours. And every move, they're getting closer to something that is truly important between them. This notion that I can't feel bad, because if I feel bad, you feel guilty. And therefore I have to contain this. That in itself could be weeks of work together. What is actually happening to him? What is the sense of helplessness that he feels if he can't solve a problem? And what is the difference between being supportive and fixing? And what does it take for us to be able to actually tolerate the distress of our partner?
33:13 Esther Perel? Without being instantly reactive and wanting it to stop. And one of the ways we want it to stop is by telling them, don't do it, or by us fixing it so that they have nothing to feel bad about anymore. It's a ton of dynamics that are so familiar to so many of us that are just coming up here in one conversation. But still, I am not convinced that the guilt is the central issue. There is something bigger underneath that I hope we will get to.
33:45 Speaker 07 When you're traveling, we maybe talk on the phone twice a week. And why would I waste that time starting an argument? Because I'm telling you something that's gonna make you frustrated. And that's partly why I close in, because
34:08 Speaker 07 I look forward so much when you're gone to talking to you. Like, I just, I wouldn't wanna waste that time.
34:17 Esther Perel? Do you know how much she's looking forward to talking to you?
34:23 Speaker 06 Uh, no.
34:24 Esther Perel? She just said it, but I don't know that that's said very often.
34:28 Speaker 06 I really don't.
34:29 Esther Perel? Wow.
34:31 Speaker 06 I don't know why I feel uncomfortable on the phone, especially in those circumstances. Just feels like there's a lot of pressure, because we're maybe talking twice a week. It's almost like an anticipation of something bad is gonna happen. And then it gets to the point where I'd rather compartmentalize it or not dwell on it so that it doesn't make me upset. It's not like that every time, but yeah, sometimes there's a sense of dread.
35:04 Esther Perel? It's really sad.
35:07 Speaker 06 It's not universal.
35:12 Esther Perel? And I dread what?
35:15 Speaker 06 The guilt or stress or conflict.
35:19 Esther Perel? So unpack that one for us, please.
35:24 Speaker 06 I'm trying to figure out how much I should get into here.
35:30 Speaker 06 So I grew up in a pretty emotionally volatile household with a lot of outbursts. And learned how to deal with that in my own way, but I think the most direct way I learned how to deal with it was having a singular focus on something and not
35:51 Speaker 06 not letting my emotions get out of whack. So that's why avoidance is a common occurrence.
35:59 Esther Perel? But I'm gonna ask you. So you said, how much shall I say?
36:04 Speaker 06 Yeah.
36:04 Esther Perel? Enough that the sadness that she just felt is sadness for you and not that she's the source of the sadness.
36:19 Esther Perel? So you talked about the guilt. You talked about what it was like to be the kid who saw your parents deal with these long absences. How did they handle it? What did you do with the volatility? And how did you become a master at compartmentalizing? And when you compartmentalize to the way you do, it's hard for you to be away and to say to her, "I miss you."
36:55 Speaker 06 It is, yeah.
36:57 Esther Perel? Without feeling guilty about the fact that you're gone, which then makes her feel lonely. It's like, how do I hold two feelings at the same time? I'm glad to be in the field and I miss you.
37:14 Speaker 06 I have a very hard time with that.
37:16 Esther Perel? Okay. How do we change the conversation is going to involve your learning to do more of that.
37:24 Speaker 06 Yeah.
37:29 Esther Perel? And I suspect that this is what he had to learn when his father was in the field. This notion of how do you feel close and connected even when you're gone is actually a very important concept. It starts in what babies experience called object constancy, right? It's what allows us to play hide and seek. That's the playful version of where we practice this all the time afterwards. The person is there even when I don't see them is one of the essential pieces of internalizing connection and building trust.
38:11 Esther Perel? And what he's saying is, "I don't know how to do that. If I go in the field, I forget about my whole life. I don't know how to internalize it and hold it." So the guilt becomes the way with which he holds on to the connection while at the same time be gone.
38:33 Esther Perel? We are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.
38:49 Speaker 02 Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.
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40:17 Speaker 06 What's weird is that I have an easier time telling other people I'm with how important you are than I do to directly tell you when we're talking on the phone. Like, that doesn't make any sense to me.
40:30 Speaker 06 Why is that? I mean, all I do is rave about you to everyone I know. And yet, when we're actually having the conversation, it's hard, and I don't understand that.
40:40 Speaker 07 I don't know how to answer that for you.
40:43 Speaker 06 Yeah, I don't get it.
40:45 Esther Perel? What is it you avoid? What's the fear in saying to the person that's next to you how much you care about them and how important they are to you?
40:58 Speaker 06 There shouldn't be, that's why I'm confused.
41:02 Esther Perel? But there shouldn't be in a rational logic, but there often is in an emotional logic. So you're saying I have the hardest time saying I love you to the person I love the most.
41:17 Speaker 06 Yeah, sorry, you're um opening up a lot of feelings with that one. I think the people who you are closest with have the biggest capacity to hurt you. And I feel like unintentionally, I keep some distance from you to protect myself. Which I don't feel that way logically.
41:51 Speaker 06 But it seems like your family has such an easy time saying I love you. You almost had to teach me how to do that, because I did not have that as a practice. I still feel weird saying that out loud. So I would like to learn from you how to do that better. And be intentional about it, because that's actually how I feel.
42:14 Speaker 07 I can try to be better at teaching you.
42:25 Esther Perel? This was such an interesting moment, because at the moment he says, I would like you to teach me to say I love you. The dog came immediately over to him and licked his hands. And I thought, maybe it's actually easier for him to say I love you to the dog. And it won't be unusual in many families that a certain kind of emotionality and expressiveness of tender feelings can be expressed to the pet or even through the caressing of the pet in ways that people cannot do with each other.
43:06 Speaker 06 Something you said earlier is something that I ask myself constantly, which is I do not have to pursue a career in what I'm doing. I was a small animal vet for a year. I didn't want to pursue it as a career.
43:22 Speaker 06 But it's a wonderful profession and I'm qualified and capable and able to do that. And I would be right here for however long the next, you know, thirty, forty years I could work in vet med and have a really successful career or everything.
43:39 Esther Perel? Or is it okay and easy for you to acknowledge that the way that she has set up her career is what is enabling you to do the field work that you are doing?
43:53 Speaker 06 I would say not just the field work, but like our lifestyle.
43:57 Esther Perel? Our lifestyle.
43:57 Speaker 06 So the fact that we bought a house, not even to get into my student debt situation, but the fact that we're paying a mortgage and have cars and are able to travel, that is two thirds plus supported by her.
44:15 Esther Perel? And can you comfortably acknowledge it without it choking you with guilt?
44:21 Speaker 06 Yes, but the logical part of me says, why are you putting so much pressure in this situation? When if you just did something different, everything would be a lot easier.
44:32 Speaker 06 Why am I the way I am and want to do all these other things?
44:35 Esther Perel? But that's part of the guilt talk. So you're back thinking about you.
44:39 Speaker 06 Yeah.
44:41 Esther Perel? And it makes it more difficult for you to actually say, I'm such a lucky guy.
44:48 Esther Perel? I am passionate about something. I'm quite selfish about it. And I'm so lucky to have you and I owe you so much.
44:58 Speaker 06 Yeah. I have a maybe a question that would help this. So if I can ask.
45:04 Speaker 07 Yeah, of course.
45:05 Speaker 06 So, how do you perceive me within the context of what I do? And if I did something different, would that change? Like, are you attracted or impressed by it, or would you just wish that I did something different?
45:21 Speaker 07 You're asking me if my attraction to you revolves around what you do for your career?
45:27 Esther Perel? Would you respect me equally if I did something?
45:30 Speaker 06 Yeah, like, how much does it play into it?
45:33 Speaker 07 It doesn't.
45:34 Speaker 06 So it's not a benefit at all? It's it's just detracting.
45:40 Speaker 07 It.
45:43 Speaker 07 I value your confidence, your intelligence. For me, it wouldn't matter what you did. And I think what you do now is great, but for me, I don't care about that. That doesn't change how I view you as a person. To me, that's not important.
46:07 Esther Perel? Clear answer.
46:10 Esther Perel? I actually think that this is a question that is less from him to her and more from him to the child inside of him. And what I'm hearing now is that it alludes to how many kids idealize what their parents do to make their absence often more tolerable. Doing important things, saving humanity, being a fireman in the night. If you do something truly big and I can idealize it, then I somehow can accept your absence better.
46:55 Esther Perel? And he's asking it to her, but she's not the child. So she says, I like you as the way you are. I like you just the way you are. So this is another moment where I think bringing in the history of his family of origin would have probably helped us understand this a little bit better.
47:19 Speaker 06 It's kind of the opposite. I was hoping it would be a benefit, so I could justify doing it.
47:25 Esther Perel? Sneaky.
47:26 Speaker 06 That was, that was my thought, but yeah.
47:30 Esther Perel? So that thought.
47:31 Speaker 06 For me.
47:32 Esther Perel? That's very interesting. If you had said that the draw is in what I do, I could have used it for the rest of our life together to justify. And back then with that woman in two thousand twenty five, you told me
47:48 Esther Perel? how much you found in what I do so inspiring. So don't come now and tell me that it produces hardships on you.
48:00 Speaker 06 Yeah.
48:03 Speaker 06 Well, that leads me to another question, which I hope is not as malicious as that one. Sneaky is that one.
48:10 Esther Perel? Sneaky is a good word.
48:12 Speaker 06 Yeah. Do you feel like what I do at home supports what you do? Being the main provider and like, am I providing you
48:27 Speaker 06 support and trying to take care of stuff?
48:32 Speaker 06 Does it allow you to do your profession better as well? Does it feel reciprocal to you? Or does it feel like a one-way street?
48:41 Speaker 07 I've already said that it does. I said on multiple occasions that you are the primary person that's responsible for our day-to-day. And that's why when I'm alone by myself for these weeks on end, it's extremely challenging. Because then I'm not just doing my job, but I'm also doing your job when it comes to the home stuff. And I already have a very demanding work.
49:14 Speaker 07 And so I know that it's very helpful for me when I leave the house at six thirty in the morning and not home till seven o'clock at night, that I don't have to think about feeding the pets and sometimes doing the dishes and sometimes making dinner because you're home and you're able to.
49:39 Speaker 06 Yeah, thanks for saying that. It feels nice.
49:43 Esther Perel? In some way, he actually holds a lot of things that he's in charge of. And when he's gone, you know, it's one of these things where you say one person is doing the job for a bunch.
49:58 Speaker 07 Mm-hmm.
49:59 Esther Perel? And so when he's gone, it's the bunch that is missing.
50:02 Speaker 07 Mm-hmm, totally.
50:05 Esther Perel? And if you're gonna have kids,
50:09 Esther Perel? this has to shift. Somebody's gonna have to make adaptations, meaning both of you. Eight pets and one or two kids and two full careers with very little support around you is gonna crush you.
50:26 Speaker 06 Mm-hmm.
50:28 Esther Perel? I mean, it's totally fine, but you're gonna have to start to be more creative. Who may need to adjust for a period? Who gets priorities for two, three years and then the other person gets priorities? How do we make this flexible?
50:43 Speaker 07 I think that's why I'm so hesitant in all of this because I feel like
50:52 Speaker 07 there has never been a compromise in these conversations. It's just been a, well, she's sacrificing to do this career so that I can do my PhD and I can travel and I want a family.
51:09 Esther Perel? But he wants the rest to stay put as it is.
51:12 Speaker 07 And that's what I struggle with because I just see, once again, the only option being that I sacrifice my career again.
51:22 Esther Perel? So that is a concrete thing that needs to change and that is totally doable. But it will require you not to think just what do I need, but more what does the family need?
51:38 Esther Perel? Not just to survive, but to thrive.
51:45 Esther Perel? One theme of this session was about how can we have a conversation about having a child that she's not avoiding, shutting down, and that puts us in a place where we can't talk about this. But the second subject was, this is a couple that is going through developmental transitions. When they were students together, they shared a reality on a daily basis. And choices that we make, because we are students, or because we are just the two of us, demand different answers than choices that we make when we try to expand and to become a family. These are developmental questions, and there is nothing inherently problematic about it.
52:32 Esther Perel? At the last moment, as we were talking about all these conversations that they wanted to have, the subject of sexuality came up. And we ended up having, in fact, a whole other session about that. And so I invite you to listen to that session, whether you are a subscriber on Substack or in Apple Podcasts.
52:55 Speaker 00 Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne Hatton. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.
53:32 Speaker 02 Pink Pantheress here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products. And discover custom playlists on Spotify, booked just for you, based on who you are and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com.
54:00 Speaker 08 This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. You can go deep, keep it on the ground, or draw up something nobody sees coming. And whether you want to run a flea flicker or the tush push, you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.
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