Dear Life Kit: When money makes relationships murky

Behavioral scientist Wendy De La Rosa and personal finance expert Katie Gatti Tassin answer murky money questions from Dear Life Kit listeners. Follow us on Instagram: @nprlifekitSign up for our newsletter here. Have an episode idea or feedback you want to share? Email us at [email protected] the show and listen to it sponsor-free by signing up for Life Kit+ at plus.npr.org/lifekitLearn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This message comes from Mint Mobile. Ditch overpriced wireless and get premium wireless for less. Go to mintmobile.com/switch to see which plan works for you.

• 0:11Marielle Segarra?

  You're listening to Life Kit from NPR.

• 0:19Marielle Segarra?

  Hey, it's Marielle. It's hard for a lot of us to talk about money because of how we were raised, because we're told it's impolite conversation, because we don't know how to communicate with people who have a lot more or a lot less money than we do, and for a million other reasons. And yet, in the astute words of Wu-Tang Clan, cash rules everything around me.

• 0:43Speaker 02

  Money is the hidden participant at every dinner table. Like, every major life change that we go through, we effectively have to have a money discussion. When someone has a child, right? That comes with a financial burden. When someone gets sick, that comes with a financial burden. When you get married, that comes with a financial transition. When you move countries, when you get a new job.

• 1:07Marielle Segarra?

  Wendy De La Rosa is a behavioral scientist and an assistant professor of marketing at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School. And she says in these moments, yeah, we tend to shy away from money conversations, but she'd like us to have some of those. And so would Katy Gaddy Tossin', host of The Money with Katy Show and author of the book Rich Girl Nation. Katy says, look, we're all learning how to make better financial decisions for ourselves and our families, ones that reflect our values, and how to talk about this stuff, too.

• 1:38Speaker 03

  Nobody comes out of the womb knowing how to manage money. It is a skill that can be learned. And I'd just like to start there because I think that there is a layer of shame that we often have to kind of dig through because there is this subconscious, often, belief that, like, I should know this by now.

• 1:57Marielle Segarra?

  On this edition of Dear Life Kit, the advice series from Life Kit reporter Andy Tagle, Wendy and Katy are going to tackle some of your stickiest money questions. They'll talk about gift giving and picking family favorites, about how to help a friend who has a mounting stack of medical bills, and about what to do when you find that you are more financially responsible than your parents. Be forewarned, this advice is going to require talking to the people in your life.

• 2:28Speaker 00

  Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors.

• 2:32Speaker 04

  This message comes from Ameriprise Financial, serving clients for more than 130 years. Vice President Deana Healy shares why Ameriprise Financial Advisors help clients stay informed when creating their financial plan.

• 2:45Speaker 05

  When a client works with Ameriprise Financial Advisor, they can understand the information coming at us in the daily news, on social media. And so they can maintain perspective so that they're making appropriate decisions based in data, what's important for them, based on their goals and their values. And so they aren't swayed by emotion and they're making smart financial decisions that meet their long-term needs. And that's really why advisors can be such an important part, because they can assess where are you starting from today and then figuring out what kind of guidance do you need to make the best decisions for you.

• 3:19Speaker 04

  For more information and important disclosures, visit ameriprise.com/advise. Investment advisory products and services are made available through Ameriprise Financial Services, LLC, a registered investment advisor. Securities offered by Ameriprise Financial Services, LLC, member FINRA and SIPC.

• 3:36Speaker 00

  This message comes from Quo. You run a job, in a meeting, slammed, and a customer calls. If nobody picks up, they go to your competitor. That's why over 90,000 companies choose Quo, the business phone system built for busy teams. Smart call routing sends calls to the right person. Shared numbers let your team cover for each other. And an AI agent picks up when nobody can, capturing every lead so nothing falls through the cracks. Always say hello with Quo. Try it free at quo.com/NPR. This message comes from HomeServe. Got a burst pipe, HVAC outage, or electrical issue? HomeServe has your back for regular use where basic homeowners insurance typically won't help. With a protection plan from HomeServe in place before disaster strikes,

• 4:21Speaker 00

  just call them. They'll send a qualified contractor and help you avoid unexpected expenses. Go to homeserve.com/audio for 50% less your first year. Savings compared to renewal price. Boyd in Florida.

• 4:35Speaker 06

  Question number one. Dear Life Kit. I'm an auntie to 18 nieces and nephews. Most of them are teenagers and I'm not close with them all. My sisters mentioned that I clearly have a favorite and how it's unfair that I only buy presents for some of them. I'm doing well financially, but gifts for 18 nieces and nephews adds up. I don't have strong bonds with all of my siblings and it's the same with my nieces and nephews. Is it okay that I have a favorite? Signed, Mutual Investment Required. So, on one hand, for me, 18 is wild. On the other hand, if we're at a family party where gifts are being exchanged and you're obviously shelling out presents to some of the kids but not to others, yikes. Thoughts?

• 5:20Speaker 03

  So, my perspective here is that I do think the expectation financially that you would be buying gifts for every single kid, I'm assuming this is birthday, but there's also the holidays, right? So, we're talking theoretically 36 presents a year if we're going to go down that route of everybody is getting a present. I do think that that is unreasonable and my thought is there are other ways, like maybe it's sending the birthday card, right? There are other ways that you can acknowledge that it is someone's birthday or a holiday without feeling as though, you know, you need to be shelling out money. I do think that it is, it is very natural in big families like that, especially when

• 6:05Speaker 03

  there's dozens and dozens of you, to have closer relationships with some people than others. I think that's just to be expected.

• 6:12Speaker 06

  Wendy?

• 6:13Speaker 02

  I think we're actually asking the wrong question because I think what the fundamental core of the question or the ask is, is one that's coming from vulnerability is saying, "Hey, like, I want to be closer to you. I want you to love my children in the same way that you love our other siblings' children. Like, how can we become closer?" Right? And, and money is just essentially a symptom of the core issue, which is just someone asking for closeness, right? And so, I would ask the letter writers to say, like, "What are your values? Like, how do you want these children to feel? Like, do you even want to be a significant part of their lives?" If the answer is yes, then let's think about creative ways in which you can show up for

• 6:57Speaker 02

  them that doesn't leave you in financial ruin. Like, you know, how can you organize... A family gathering at your place or at a park where you're organizing everything and you give all the children just like an awesome memory like that in and of itself. I think would go such a long way because at the core, this issue is about connection. And so I would just put reminders to call on birthdays, right to FaceTime on birthdays, to send a card as was previously shared. But also just to figure out ways in which you can just show up.

• 7:33Speaker 03

  I like the way that you reframed that. I think that making sure we're answering the right question is really important. And I think that oftentimes, questions like this that deal with the stickiness of money within relationships is that often the it's a it's a relationship challenge that is masquerading as a money challenge. So I really appreciate the way that you took the side door.

• 8:00Speaker 06

  I think you're right. I think there's definitely some missing connections here. But I I do think mutual investment is saying, I have some favorites. Like, is is that okay?

• 8:10Speaker 02

  Hmm, we are social creatures by nature, right? Like, that's part of our DNA. We tend to gravitate towards people that we are like. And so that's just naturally going to happen in any big group. But that's why I go back and challenge the letter writer to say, is that consistent with your values? Like, are you okay with that? And the answer is yes, then great. Then you have sort of created a boundary for yourself as to how you're gonna show up. So you're not perpetually suffering and putting yourself, you know, over the coals or saying, I'm not doing enough for XYZ. No, you've done the internal hard work to say, there's only X number of dollars in my bank account. I only have X limited amount of attention.

• 8:52Speaker 02

  I am purposely going to decide to invest in these relationships. And I'm very clear eyed about it. And if you have reservations about like showing the favorites, then let's change our behavior accordingly. Let's operate from values first.

• 9:08Speaker 06

  Hmm, lovely. Katie, any last thoughts?

• 9:12Speaker 03

  You know, I do think that as kids grow up, your relationship with those children is going to change too. The kid that you're closest to this year might not be the kid that you're closest to five years from now. So I do think that like, these things aren't static either. I appreciate Wendy's focus on being very intentional about what you're choosing and being very grounded in that choice. Because it doesn't feel good to give gifts if you're doing it out of a sense of obligation. That completely changes the energy of the dynamic. And so I think whatever you choose, being really grounded and sturdy in, "I know why I'm doing this", then it means that if someone else in the family is not a fan of it, it's kind of like, that can roll off your back a little bit easier. So I think that that's a really good note.

• 9:57Speaker 06

  Moving on to question number two. Dear Life Kit, My dear friend was recently diagnosed with stage four cancer at age 35. We've been close friends for six years, and I've seen her through the loss of a parent, been by her side at her wedding, and done countless weekend adventures together. She and her spouse are underemployed and uninsured. And the systems in place to help her are moving slower than the fast-moving cancer. I'm frustrated with my friend for not having insurance, but I'm also grateful to be in a financial position to help her. I'm trying to decide how much money to give her. But when I try to measure my friend's life against my daily comforts and future plans for my savings, I feel like I'm putting a price tag on her life.

• 10:40Speaker 06

  How do I decide how much of my savings to keep for myself and how much to gift my friend? Signed, Budgeting for Bestie.

• 10:49Speaker 03

  This is so hard. It's so unfair that you're all going through it, and it's so unfair that our policymakers have basically put people in this position to be having to make these types of trade-offs. When someone's life is on the line, you're clearly a very loyal and very thoughtful friend, and you're taking this really seriously. So I just want to commend you for that. The other thing that I will say that immediately came to mind is... A stage for cancer diagnosis in the United States without insurance is probably going to be hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars in some extreme cases to treat out of pocket.

• 11:31Speaker 03

  So unless that is the level of financial stability and flexibility that you're wheeling and dealing with here, where you're like, yeah, I could cover that, and I'm trying to decide if I should, most likely regardless of the type of help that you're able to give her, she will need to find another solution.

• 11:50Speaker 06

  Writing a big check, wiping out your savings, isn't necessarily the right answer here. Wendy, do you agree?

• 11:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I just want to echo what's been shared around, like, this is such a difficult time, and one that I too find myself in. I have a very close friend who is dealing with a cancer diagnosis. And having been through this for now a year, I would say one of the most important things, impactful things that you could do is figure out how to bring joy to your friend's life, how to bring laughter into your friend's life, and how to bring comfort into your friend's life. I would think about how do I spend my money in a way that can bring her comfort?

• 12:38Speaker 02

  Like, can I create a memorable experience for her so that her and I can have this amazing memory before she has to go through another round of chemo? Like, that's sort of where I would sort of channel the attention, but also I would channel the attention towards just hugs.

• 12:57Speaker 03

  I think the other thing that I wanted to add is oftentimes when something really scary like this happens and you have a really major health event, just having somebody who can kind of play that medical secretary role for you in some capacity and help you stay on top of things can be a godsend, because navigating the US healthcare system in some cases feels like a full-time job. But if your friend has not yet tried to get on Medicaid, I do think that that is a path worth pursuing, and I think that this is quite a practical way that you could End up having a pretty big financial impact if you're able to help her get on Medicaid.

• 13:41Speaker 03

  But it also might just give her some peace of mind that she isn't going through that process alone or having things slip through the cracks because obviously, the best time to be dealing with a bunch of paperwork that determines whether you live or die is when you're already faced with a horrible disease, right? And that's the situation that it puts people in.

• 14:03Speaker 06

  I think a larger question that this brought up for me is the uncomfortable feelings that can come up when there's inequality or inequity between friends or family, especially in big moments of crisis like this, you know? Any thoughts on how people can draw that line for themselves? You know, what we owe each other, what we can give without overextending ourselves?

• 14:24Speaker 02

  What I tell people is if you were to take $100 and burn it, just like take a lighter and burn it in front of you, is that going to materially impact your life today, tomorrow, or next week? If the answer is no, okay, it's not going to change what's in your emergency savings fund, it's not going to... Cool. Now, let's take that scenario and say $200. And at the point where you're like, starting to like, maybe, it's like, then back up a couple of hundred, and then that should at least like, help you to get a sense of how much you're actually willing to part.

• 15:04Speaker 06

  More questions from Dear Life Kit in a moment.

• 15:07Speaker 00

  Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors. This message comes from Quo. You run a job, in a meeting, slammed, and a customer calls. If nobody picks up, they go to your competitor. That's why over 90,000 companies choose Quo. The business phone system built for busy teams. Smart call routing sends calls to the right person. Shared numbers let your team cover for each other, and an AI agent picks up when nobody can, capturing every lead so nothing falls through the cracks. Always say hello with Quo. Try it free at quo.com/NPR.

• 15:43Speaker 04

  This message comes from Midi Health. Most women never get real answers about their hormonal health. Midi is changing that with virtual care covered by most major insurances. Understand your hormones. Visit joinmidi.com to book your first visit today.

• 16:00Speaker 06

  Our last question, here we go. Dear Life Kit, I'm in my late twenties and still living with my parents. I have a full-time job and I've finally scrounged up enough money to move out. My parents are terrible with money. They make six times my salary, but constantly overdraft their accounts. They still talk to me like I'm 16, but then they ask me to bail them out, which I've done many times. Now, they're trying to guilt me into staying instead of finally getting my own place. What do I do? Signed, desperate to divest.

• 16:36Speaker 02

  This is a difficult and yet, I think, simple question, right? I think the question here is not necessarily like, should I move out? I think the letter writer has decided already that they want to move out. The question is a more complicated one is, how can I move out in a way that my parents and I relationship is not irreparably damaged, right? What are some of the things that you can feel good about within your own boundaries that at least let you say, "I'm still helping out my parents in some way", whether it's to say, you know, "I'm happy to cover the light bill", or "I'm happy to cover the phone bill",

• 17:19Speaker 02

  or "I'll add you guys to my family plan on T-Mobile", like, you know, whatever, whatever is a way of saying, "I'm not, I'm not leaving you. I care about you, I care about this relationship, I'm so thankful for everything you've done, but it's time and I can help you in this way." And I also want to encourage the letter writer to recognize that your parents are adults, too. Your parents are making adult choices. And so sometimes they're gonna make mistakes, and they're gonna make costly mistakes, and it's gonna impact their financial life. And we have to bear that, even with the people that we love.

• 18:00Speaker 06

  Yeah. Same take, Katie?

• 18:02Speaker 03

  Uh, yeah, I think so. I guess first, I just want to acknowledge that it is very impressive and it's also very rare to recognize and be capable of breaking that cycle because I think so much of our money stories are inherited. I think many of us aren't even aware of how they are subconsciously pulling the levers behind the scenes and influencing our behavior. So I think the fact that you even can recognize this dynamic, kind of identify it as harmful in some ways and go, I would like to choose differently for myself. I think that that's really powerful. And you also mentioned that they make a lot more money than you do. And so I think that that is actually, in this case, practically speaking, an important part

• 18:44Speaker 03

  of this dynamic. It's not like you're Rockefeller swinging in from New York and your parents are very low income and rely on you. They have more resources than you do, and it is not your job as their child to constantly bail them out. I am a little curious, is this a financial literacy problem? Is it that they know better and they're choosing not to do better? Or is it something where you feel like they actually do not know better? You've said they're terrible with money. I don't know that they would react well to this, but I have seen adult children of parents who are not financially responsible essentially say, hey, I am no longer comfortable giving you money, but I am willing to provide you

• 19:27Speaker 03

  with a way to feel more solid about money. I want to hire somebody to work with you who can teach you how to manage your money and can help you get better at this. And so it's, I guess, the teaching to fish versus continuing to give the fish type solution. But I do think, I wanted to note that just in case it feels like something where maybe financial literacy wasn't a big part of the household and you might think that they actually don't really know any better.

• 19:54Speaker 06

  For me, the answer is, we just need to have a conversation. Like, we need to have an overdue grown-up conversation about what this needs to look like.

• 20:04Speaker 02

  Well, I think that across all these questions, we've been essentially telling people, have a conversation, have a conversation.

• 20:09Speaker 06

  Right, yeah.

• 20:10Speaker 02

  I want us to recognize that not everybody is ready to have a conversation or can come to the conversation in a way to make it productive. I think the letter writer had said, you know, they still talk to me as though I'm sixteen.

• 20:22Speaker 06

  Right.

• 20:22Speaker 02

  And maybe they're constantly undermining. And so as this letter writer is, you know, prepping to have this conversation with your parent, I want them to sort of be solidified in that however their parent shows up, it's not their responsibility. Maybe the conversation will go great, maybe the conversation will not go great. But as long as the letter writer feels like I am doing something that I know is important to me and I'm at least trying to show up from a place of love for my parents, right? It's not that I'm just like leaving you high and dry. Then it's okay, be still in that decision, right? Our parents' mistakes are not necessarily our mistakes.

• 21:07Speaker 03

  I think too, something that I often think about with having hard conversations is that there are a lot of things that might come up in a conversation like this one. And I think that you get to choose which of the complicated feelings that you feel about them and about the situation that you bring into that conversation. So maybe you have a lot of feelings about the way that they spend money. Maybe you have a lot of feelings about the way that they treat you. Maybe there's a lot of hard feelings around them being irresponsible, right? Getting that all out on the table and then kind of teasing it apart and going, what do I want to take to them with the purposes of actually having a productive conversation?

• 21:49Speaker 03

  Not everything maybe needs to go to them or needs to be brought to them within this container of this conversation about this specific thing. You do want to go in with a clear intent and kind of keep it focused.

• 22:02Speaker 06

  Yeah, absolutely. Before you go, we ask every guest of Dear Life Kit for their best piece of advice. We would love to hear yours.

• 22:12Speaker 03

  Okay, I think mine is to trust your curiosity. Curiosity is a superpower.

• 22:19Speaker 02

  One that sort of always sticks out to me is learn to love those who love you. Find your people, hold your people, and go through life with those people.

• 22:32Marielle Segarra?

  That was Life Kit reporter Andy Tagle talking to Wendy De La Rosa and Katie Gaddy Tossin'. And that's our show. If you love Life Kit and want even more, follow us on Instagram, @NPRLifeKit. We post even more dear Life Kit advice there. There's one about some homeowners association drama and another about a person who's worried that they aren't obsessed with their boyfriend. Hear that advice by following @NPRLifeKit on Instagram. This episode of Life Kit was produced by Sylvie Douglas. Our visuals editor is Beck Harlan and our digital editor is Malika Gribb. Megan Kane is our senior supervising editor and Beth Donovan is our executive producer. Our production team also includes Claire Marie Schneider and Margaret Serino.

• 23:17Marielle Segarra?

  Engineering support comes from David Greenberg and Jimmy Keely. I'm Mariel Segarra. Thanks for listening.