Benicio Del Toro

One of the most versatile and fascinating actors of the last 30 years joins Josh on the podcast this week. Benicio Del Toro takes centerstage in a new Wes Anderson film and is here to talk about it, not to mention his experience making THE USUAL SUSPECTS, SICARIO, and much more. UPCOMING EVENTS Gary Oldman in LA 6/3 -- ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠tickets here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 0:59Speaker 02

  What keeps you going is like, I mean, I've been doing movies for a long time. There's not one that has been the same. Just when you thought you figured it all out, you know, a new thing happens, you know? I mean, there is like, you'd be surprised all the time.

• 1:15Speaker 03

  Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, Sad, Confused begins now.

• 1:23Josh Horowitz?

  Hey guys, it's Josh and welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. The main event today, a really special one. Benicio del Toro. Benicio del Toro, first time guest on the pod. One of the best actors for the last 30 years. I'm thrilled to say he's on the show talking Phoenician scheme and his entire career. That is the main event today on Happy, Sad, Confused. Other things to briefly mention before we get into that. You have one more shot if you're listening to this on Monday or Tuesday of this week and you're in Los Angeles, come on out. I've been touting it for weeks. Gary Oldman. It's not maybe not going to sell out, but it's going to be pretty damn close to a sellout in this beautiful fine arts theater. There are some seats left, but it's an intimate setting.

• 2:05Josh Horowitz?

  It's going to be an intimate chat with one of our greats. So horses, but also we're going to hit on Dracula and true romance. And I don't know as much as I possibly can because I adore this man and this actor, Harry Potter, Batman films. Come on, Gary Oldman. As always, hit up our Patreon. That's where all the early action is in terms of announcements, bonus materials, merch, patreon.com/happy, say I confused. If you like what I do, it honestly really does help us make more of this. We are a small operation. Every little bit counts. So check out the Patreon. Lots of different tier levels. Support us over there. Helps us make more of

• 2:48Josh Horowitz?

  this stuff for all of you. Okay, so Benicio is front and center right now in the Phoenician scheme. This movie is about to come out. This is the new Wes Anderson film. He's been in one other Wes film. He was in Grand Budapest Hotel, but that was a smaller role. This time he's at the center. Really cool. Great role for him. He's surrounded by Michael Sarah, Mia Threppleton. Put that name on your list. She is indeed the daughter of Kate Winslet. And when you hear her in the film, I know I clocked her and I'm like, oh yeah, that's the daughter of Kate Winslet. Same exact voice and very talented in her own right. Big things ahead for Mia. But it's a huge ensemble as always. Benedict Cumberbatch,

• 3:28Josh Horowitz?

  F. Murray Abraham, Bill Murray, a ton more. Well worth checking out, as is every Wes Anderson film. We touch on as much as possible of Benicio's career and the time allotted. I wish I had more time and hopefully he'll be back on the pod, but we were able to cover a bit of Usual Suspects and Sicario and his role in the Marvel films, a little bit on Star Wars.

• 3:52Josh Horowitz?

  You're in Loathing. Yeah, I mean, this guy has so many amazing credits. He is one of the best out there. He's an Academy Award winner for Traffic. I believe he also got a nomination for 21 Grams. He's worked with some of the best filmmakers on the planet, and I'm just so thrilled he's finally doing the pod. So I hope you guys enjoy this. Check out The Phoenician Scheme. It's in theaters any second now. I believe at the end of this week, if you're hearing this as this drops, put it on your list. Every Wes Anderson film as well we're checking out, and this is no exception. And without any further ado, enjoy this, my chat with the great Benicio del Toro. Benicio del Toro, whether you know it or not, you've been on this list for this podcast has been going 11 years, so I finally got you. I've made it.

• 4:35Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 4:35Josh Horowitz?

  Thanks for doing it, man.

• 4:36Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 4:37Josh Horowitz?

  You've obviously worked with Wes before, but it's a good phone call, or email, or monogrammed letter, however he tells you that it's happening. This is a good moment to hear you're gonna be in a Wes film and he wants you for the lead.

• 4:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's it's kind of like winning the lottery. I mean, I've never won the lottery, maybe winning a bingo game, but you know what it really is, is a motivational pill of sorts. You know, you get motivated. You get excited.

• 5:07Speaker 02

  And, you know, you stay up at night thinking about it and hoping you you deliver, you know, inside that crazy, you know, meticulous world, meticulous world of Wes Anderson, you know?

• 5:22Josh Horowitz?

  But it's gotta be a

• 5:23Speaker 02

  Super original, too.

• 5:24Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, yeah, there's no, truly no one like, I mean, there's so many reasons that an opportunity like this is exciting. I mean, yes, you must feel amazing amount of safety in the hands of Wes. You also literally every day are working with another amazing, different actor. He assembles the best of the best. His crew he's cultivated over decades.

• 5:46Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, is it kind of at this stage in your career, maybe it wasn't even this early on, about trust, about comfort, about kind of feeling like I have license to do what I do without worry? Is that kind of a little bit of what this is?

• 5:58Speaker 02

  Well, you know, I think it's a combination, but you do what you do. And then someone like Wes, who's so unique in what he wants, he's prepared, he's storyboard every shot. He knows your lines as good as you know them. You know, it really is different, but it's the same. I mean, and by that, I mean, like, you prepare the same way. And then what you were saying, which is like, every so often, you know, a new actor or actress comes in and they just elevate you.

• 6:41Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 6:42Speaker 02

  You know, from Riza Med to Tom Hanks, Bryan Cranston, Jeffrey Wright, Matthew Marri, Scarlett Johansson, Rupert Friend, Hope Davis, you know, it's just, it's just the list is on and on. And then, you know, the, the dream sequences, which are like, a lot of them are pretty silent, you know, and you look into the side and you got F. Mary Abrams, you got Bill Murray, you got Willem Dafoe. It's quite stunning and quite exciting and, you know, and you really got to pinch yourselves to say, you know, hey, I'm here with these legends.

• 7:24Josh Horowitz?

  I've heard you talk about with respect to Wes, like, or any director, you even as an actor, having done this a while, an Oscar winner, you've accomplished so much. It's still nice to hear encouragement and positive reinforcement. I mean, what do you need or want to hear from Wes Anderson that's going to kind of like embolden you and encourage you? What's, what's an actor like you looking for?

• 7:48Speaker 02

  You know, you know, collaboration of some sorts, you know? I, I think that I turn to look at the story. First of all, I need to understand what the writer is trying to do. In this case, what Wes is trying to say.

• 8:01Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 8:02Speaker 02

  And I think we got to that. And then, and I look at it from the point of view of the character. I'm looking at the story kind of like from the point of view of the character. And what I would like to have, which I did with Wes, is, is a, it's at least the, the, to listen to my, if I have a concern, and I'll give you an example. We were doing a scene where I first meet my daughter, Liesl, played by Mia Thirpoltin. And, and in that scene, in that scene, I'm telling her a lot of. Information that is very private. That my character considers very private.

• 8:42Speaker 02

  But in the same set, there is a character, my tutor, played by Michael Sarah.

• 8:51Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 8:51Speaker 02

  Bjorn is the name of the character. So he's sitting there and, and as I read it and I, we, we, we played with it. There was a little bit of rehearsal. I remember telling Wes, you know, I just don't know if my character would be dropping this type of information with a stranger.

• 9:09Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 9:10Speaker 02

  Bjorn sitting there, you know, I don't think he would be telling the, the, his daughter, all this information. And, and then he said, well, how about if we polygraph him? And then, okay. You know, and then he comes up with this idea of the lie detector and, you know, very, very, a very Wes Anderson prop.

• 9:33Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 9:34Speaker 02

  And so that's, that's what you look for. You look for that kind of lane of communication, you know, that, that it can be. And, and then it makes, then I can, I can, I can try to be in the moment.

• 9:48Josh Horowitz?

  Well, that's, as you, although that's the key. And like even for a filmmaker meticulous, who draws the lines very specifically, it's, it's, it's heartening to hear that there's still room for you. Because otherwise, where's the joy for an actor? I mean, you need to find some spontaneity in his animatics, which I know he shows actors.

• 10:06Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 10:07Josh Horowitz?

  You know?

• 10:07Speaker 02

  And, and, you know, and, you know, you then you also, you know, it, it's a little bit like, like if, it's like doing a, a play that has already been written.

• 10:21Josh Horowitz?

  And blocked even perhaps.

• 10:23Speaker 02

  And, and, you know, like if you did a, a play from Arthur Miller. Let's say if you did a play like View from the Bridge. It's already been, you know, interpreted and it's been locked. So when you do it, you can't change it that much. You won't rewrite Arthur Miller. So it's a little bit like that. But within that, you can bring yourself to it.

• 10:42Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 10:43Speaker 02

  And make it unique. And, and that's, I think, every actor that works in a Wes Anderson. Somehow it'll, he or she will, will, will find that.

• 10:54Josh Horowitz?

  I've never had the privilege of being on a Wes Anderson set, but there are certain filmmakers where I feel like I, in my mind's eye, I know what it is. I feel like, I mean, tell me, is it basically what I would imagine a Wes Anderson set to be in terms of?

• 11:07Speaker 02

  Like, kinda like this?

• 11:08Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, exactly. The very meticulous, there's, um, there's a certain air of, um, I don't know, seriousness. He's wearing a suit. I don't know. Give me a sense of like what the vibe is on the Wes Anderson set.

• 11:18Speaker 02

  Well, it's, it's, it is everything you're saying, but at the same time, it's just like any other movie set I've been in where the director wants the actor to be in the moment, to, uh, be as honest and as truthful as he or she can be, you know? So at, at the end of the day, you know, I'm trying to be. So, um, being, being in the moment and being in that set, just kinda like, I can't like enjoy it because I am part of the set.

• 11:54Josh Horowitz?

  Right, right, right.

• 11:55Speaker 02

  I am like that chair. I am like, except, you know, I gotta perform, but, you know, I am part of the set. And so you, you might take it, you might have to take it for granted a little bit, you know?

• 12:07Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. The catering might be nicer, but at the end of the day, you have to be in the moment and live that life.

• 12:12Speaker 02

  And, and think about this next take and try to land here to say that line. So it takes the, you, you quickly stop being a tourist.

• 12:22Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 12:22Speaker 02

  On a Wes Anderson set. But for those who get to see the film, it's, when you see the film, it's magical, you know? It's like, it's, it's almost like, it's almost like you're doing a movie and there is the camera. I block it out.

• 12:37Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  You know, I just, I don't see the camera anymore. But you, by coming to the set, I go, well, there's the camera right there, but I don't. So for me, the set of Wes Anderson is I don't get to enjoy it or look at it or, I mean, I enjoy it.

• 12:52Josh Horowitz?

  Of course.

• 12:53Speaker 02

  And, and I feed from it, but, you know, I don't like, uh, I don't sit there and admire it as much as I would like to.

• 13:02Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, you got a job to do.

• 13:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:10Josh Horowitz?

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• 13:54Josh Horowitz?

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• 14:37Josh Horowitz?

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• 16:37Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, we have the luxury of a little time, so if you'll indulge me a little bit. I mean, one of the traits of this is seeing you front and center. I mean, you've been the leading man in films. You've been the supporting player in films. When you were starting out, did you envision, and I know theater was big, obviously, first, but when you start to transition to film and TV, did you imagine being at the center of the frame? Did you see yourself Puerto Rican man, the name Vinicio de Toro? This is not on paper where they've center, where they give the leading men roles to, especially 30 years ago. What did you imagine?

• 17:10Speaker 02

  Well, I did and I did not, you know, you have to.

• 17:17Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, if you can't imagine it, who else is gonna imagine it for you?

• 17:19Speaker 02

  You can't imagine it, then you can't even follow it. So I did imagine that I would be, you know, that I wanted to be, you know, an actor that would command, you know, whatever, a good part. And I, and I knew quickly that it would take a lot of effort and a lot of work and a lot of perseverance. I'm being Latino as well, you know, so, but I did kind of saw myself, you know, somehow trying to do what actors I admire,

• 17:58Speaker 02

  like Pacino, De Niro, Denzel Washington, or Dustin Hoffman. You know, these are actors, Robert Duvall, you know, actors that you admire and you know, like, oh, yeah, I wanna do what they do. Or even Sean Penn, you know, was like closer to me. But, but yeah, so you have to, you have to like believe. And it's kind of, you know, at, at some point, there's so much grinding that...

• 18:36Josh Horowitz?

  If you don't have that belief, it's what's gonna keep you going?

• 18:38Speaker 02

  What's gonna... Well, what keeps you going is like, I mean, I've been doing movies for a long time. There's no one that has been the same. Just when you thought you figured it all out, you know, a new thing happens, you know? I mean, there, there is like, you'd be surprised all the time. I mean, I'll give you a surprise. It's like, I, I thought I'd seen everything on the set. And on the set of this, it was Bill Mary's first day. He's playing God in the film, and it's a dream sequence.

• 19:07Speaker 02

  And we're waiting for him and he I hear this music. And he walks in with his own soundtrack with a boombox and he's cranking some Eric Clapton. And I'm going, wow, I've never seen that before. And and it's just, you know, okay, this is good. It's good music and everybody starts to move. And then from the corner of the set, you hear Wes Anderson go, Bill, Bill, classical music only, classical music only. And and and Bill Murray just looked away and just pressed a button and Clapton turned into Bartok or some classical music came out blasting and he kept walking and I was like, wow, I gotta remember that one.

• 19:49Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 19:50Speaker 02

  You know, that I haven't done so, but that's a little example, but every, every, every story, every movie, every director, everything is different and that makes it exciting, you know?

• 20:03Josh Horowitz?

  When did your family stop worrying about you? Like by the time, was it before or after Usual Suspects? Like before Usual Suspects, was that the game changer?

• 20:10Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no. I mean, a little bit, but no, it was even even after I won the Oscar for for Best Supporting Actor, I remember my godmother, maybe three days later, it's like, you know, you'd be, you could be a great lawyer. You just take some, you know, what night classes at night at law, you could do law school at night, you could be a great lawyer. And it's like, no, it it kind of like, I think that then, you know, after, you know, I don't come from a family of of theater people or movie people. So it was, they were very nervous with me. They're they I come from a family of professionals,

• 20:52Speaker 02

  but not and not in the movie world or the theater world. So my.

• 20:59Speaker 02

  You know, they were very concerned, and I understand. You know, I'm a father now.

• 21:05Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 21:06Speaker 02

  And I, you know, I just, I just let my daughter, if she wants to, you know, if she wants to, one day she wants to be a lawyer. I said, great. One, the next day she wants to be, you know, a designer, great, you know, I just, you know, and I. But I do know that if she wants to be an actress, you know, you just have to let her be. I think there's more opportunity now than when I was going out for auditions for an actor. I think that now there's more, there's, there's all these TV series, all these, there's a lot of stories being told as we speak. But still, it's, it's a very.

• 21:38Josh Horowitz?

  The odds are not in your favor.

• 21:39Speaker 02

  Not in your favor, you know, but you, you, you can't get in them, but I do understand it, and I did then, their concern.

• 21:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 21:47Speaker 02

  You know.

• 21:48Josh Horowitz?

  So it, it has been thirty years since Usual Suspects. When you, when you showed up on set with that very specific, specific take, the cadence, the mumbling, like the, the almost inaudible approach, the fenster, what did Brian, what did the producers say? Did they pull you aside and say like, we might need to make a change, or did, were they all in?

• 22:06Speaker 02

  No, Brian Singer and, and Chris McQuarrie, the writer, Brian Singer, the director, they were very encouraging with it. You know, they, they were like, they were, you know, really, my character died on page thirty-eight or thirty-nine. It was just like, I had five scenes. So they allowed me, they trusted me to create that character and, you know, give it whatever to it. And, but for me, it was a little bit scary because, you know, I, I, you know, I remember my, when, when I finished

• 22:49Speaker 02

  my, my last day of shooting, I, I just, I, I felt like, yeah, I don't know if this is gonna work, you know. But I got lucky because the movie did so well.

• 22:59Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 22:59Speaker 02

  Because the cast was so strong, the cast was very encouraging too, with what I was doing. And, you know, so.

• 23:09Speaker 02

  You can only be as good as your movie.

• 23:11Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 23:11Speaker 02

  And the characters kind of survives in a way because the movie was terrific.

• 23:16Josh Horowitz?

  I want to rattle off just a few of the directors you've worked with over the years. It's kind of an insane list.

• 23:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:21Josh Horowitz?

  This is just a fraction. Steven Soderbergh, Denis Villeneuve, Terry Gilliam, Peter Weir, Christopher McQuarrie, Alejandro Yaritú, Oliver Stone, Paul Thomas Anderson a second time now, Wes a second time now.

• 23:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:35Josh Horowitz?

  I mean, that's a hell of a roster. Can you cite one or two that fundamentally changed your approach to acting? That really changed you as an actor from that experience?

• 23:49Speaker 02

  Well, you know, you know, there is Steven Soderbergh.

• 23:56Speaker 02

  He definitely, that was probably the first time I, you know, had a real rapport with him as a director. You know, there'd been some before, like Bryan Singer.

• 24:12Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 24:12Speaker 02

  Julian Schnabel.

• 24:14Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 24:15Speaker 02

  There were filmmakers that I, that I could talk to almost like, like friends, you know?

• 24:23Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 24:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. But then, you know, then after that, I think all of them, all of them, all of them have touched me one way or the other, whether it's, you know, Alejandro González and Yaritú or Oliver Stone. You know, and there's things that, that they've said that I will remember on particular moments, you know, that there's, you know, they're, they're, all of them do. And, you know, Wes Anderson as well, and, you know, he's my latest, you know, influence, you know? I mean, I learn a lot from all these filmmakers. I mean, definitely Denis Villeneuve.

• 25:05Speaker 02

  You know, that, but I think all of them, all of them, you take, but Sutterberg was a a moment there because of the success of Traffic.

• 25:16Josh Horowitz?

  Right, Traffic and then into Che, which is such an adventure. I mean, my gosh, the trust that you had in each other to go on that journey must have been extraordinary.

• 25:24Speaker 02

  Yes, it was.

• 25:25Josh Horowitz?

  You, you mentioned Denis, I mean, I've talked to Josh about this, Josh Brolin, and he had a good experience, but he also said to me, he didn't know what that movie was gonna be. He didn't realize how good Sicario was gonna be. Did you, did you have a sense, were you kind of shocked of like, how holistically the music, the cinematography, it all was gonna come together?

• 25:43Speaker 02

  No, well, I knew he was a hell of a filmmaker, because I've seen his work prior to Sicario, but he, you know, there was an opening sequence where you, where my character was introduced, and it was, it was a, it was a type of scene that my, my manager and my agent, they were all excited about this scene. And so when I go see the movie, that scene is not in the film. So I'm, immediately, from the get-go, well, it was like, okay.

• 26:18Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 26:19Speaker 02

  You know, and, you know, the work he did, you know, directing, the photography, the music, the editing.

• 26:26Josh Horowitz?

  The attention, I mean.

• 26:27Speaker 02

  The tension, yeah, it's, it's just, I mean, it's superb, it's, it's really a tight, tight ship, that, that movie was a really tight movie.

• 26:36Josh Horowitz?

  I heard you talking to Roger Deakins, and the great cinematographer, and he said something that was really striking, that didn't necessarily surprise me, that you're the only actor he's ever seen ask for less lines, and that was in Sicario, and maybe it's been in other works. Is that, is that just intuitive, that like, this guy is gonna function better as a contrast to these other characters, that he's a coiled spring, that when he does speak, it's gonna have more impact? Give me a sense of like, the, the idea behind scaling back on.

• 27:04Speaker 02

  The idea behind was, it was.

• 27:08Speaker 02

  The idea behind it was like, there was a, the character was explaining what happened to him in Sicario. Why he had become a Sicario.

• 27:20Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 27:21Speaker 02

  And I, and I, um, my suggestion was like, in my experience in life, and I've met

• 27:28Speaker 02

  some men that have been in situations similar to that, or been in traumatic situations, they don't talk about them.

• 27:33Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 27:34Speaker 02

  They don't, and especially not to strangers. You know, I mean.

• 27:39Josh Horowitz?

  Right, it's up to a war veteran, they're not gonna tell the world.

• 27:42Speaker 02

  It takes years before they talk, so that's, that's a, that's, that's, that was the approach. The approach was like, you know, I don't know if I'd see a guy like this opening up to Emily Blunt's character.

• 27:55Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 27:55Speaker 02

  You know, so, you know, it was, uh, and, and, and Denis understood that right away. And he kinda said, you know, I get it. And he then had Josh's character explaining to Emily, which makes more sense.

• 28:10Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 28:11Speaker 02

  But I, you know, like, uh, thinking about that movie and this, the Wes Anderson movie is not a day, you know, because with Wes, you have to, you, you respect the word.

• 28:23Josh Horowitz?

  This is the most verbal character maybe you've ever had, probably, I mean, like, you're...

• 28:27Speaker 02

  Probably, yeah.

• 28:28Josh Horowitz?

  It, it's kinda striking to me, again, when I think of like, the career as a whole, it's like, you have these wild extremes, like you have the most like verbose characters sometimes, like in something like this, and these very silent characters, and you're not afraid to like, kinda go big or go home. Is that, do you like kinda being on the nice end?

• 28:46Speaker 02

  Challenging.

• 28:47Josh Horowitz?

  Well, yeah, challenging, but also feeling like, this could go either way, this might work or might not work.

• 28:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I think, but I'm kinda like, I know one who's in charge.

• 28:57Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 28:58Speaker 02

  I mean, when you have someone like Wes Anderson in charge of this story, the Phoenician Scheme, you trust him, and you know that you are in the hands of the one filmmaker that, and you can see it too, I mean, I, I've had an opportunity to work with really good writers, or material based on really good writers, like Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, um, that, that's an example. And, uh, Wes's, um, Wes's script reminded me a lot of...

• 29:34Speaker 02

  Of Hunter S. Thompson's writing. And it is, the fact is that I, I found myself asking Wes, well, telling Wes, maybe we don't need to say this, and convincing him, which wasn't easy, to take something out.

• 29:50Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 29:50Speaker 02

  And then in the process of filming it, going back to Wes, and I said, you know what, I think I'm wrong. I think we need to bring that in.

• 29:57Josh Horowitz?

  Wow, yeah.

• 29:58Speaker 02

  You know, because his writing, it's, it's, it's almost like, it's, it's like a Jenga building. So if you take a line out, it just falls. You know, and that happens with really good writing, in a way, you know. So, uh, his writing was, is superb. And, you know, I, you know, I, you know, so I, I, um, you know, I, I recognize that. And when there is good writing, you just, that writing will feed your choices as an actor, will help your acting. I mean, yeah, that's a, that's a no brainer.

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• 31:13Speaker 05

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• 31:46Josh Horowitz?

  Talking about the swings of the kind of characters, it's also the kind of films you make over your career. You've made the artiest of arty films, whether it is Che or working with Schnabel, et cetera. And then you're not afraid to be in, you've been in Star Wars and Marvel and these big Bond franchises at the start. I mean, do you get something out of everything? Do you get something out of The Wolfman as much as you do out of a Che or whatever?

• 32:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. You do. You do. When you do a studio film, like, let's say, a Marvel movie or a Star Wars, it's a different approach, in a way, but it's not. It is, but it isn't. It's like, acting is acting.

• 32:36Josh Horowitz?

  Right. Once you get to action, it's still truth. It's still...

• 32:41Speaker 02

  And I like all kinds of stories. I like all kinds of movies. I'm not just like, oh, God, I just like these type of movies. I like all kinds of movies. So it's kind of fun to be invited to do a film like The Phoenician Scheme, for example, which is like a little bit outside of what you would see me doing. Probably closer to something like The Collector, in a way, or closer to something like that.

• 33:09Josh Horowitz?

  It's a heightened reality, but...

• 33:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, but differently. Yeah, but different. And, you know, so it's exciting to try to figure it out and go for it.

• 33:25Josh Horowitz?

  You mentioned Star Wars. You ended up in Star Wars. Here's a rumor I always wanted to ask you about. Tell me if there's any truth to this. Way back, way before Last Jedi, it's said that you were offered, or maybe even cast, as Darth Maul in the original, in the first prequel movie by Lucas. And then they scaled back the part and you guys agreed to kind of part ways. Is there any truth to that? Do you remember that?

• 33:46Speaker 02

  No.

• 33:47Josh Horowitz?

  No. Okay, good. Settled.

• 33:49Speaker 02

  Settled. No, I don't remember that, but, you know.

• 33:54Speaker 02

  I don't remember everything, but I, I, I don't remember that.

• 33:58Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, fair enough.

• 33:59Speaker 02

  I don't remember being cast in another Star Wars movie, except for the one I was, I was cast.

• 34:04Josh Horowitz?

  When, when Ryan comes to you, that's a double, that's, you get to be in a Star Wars movie and you get to be in a Ryan Johnson movie.

• 34:09Speaker 02

  Right, absolutely.

• 34:10Josh Horowitz?

  Is that, was that as much the excitement?

• 34:12Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, it was kind of like, it was really cool that he asked me to come in and play with him.

• 34:17Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 34:17Speaker 02

  You know, play DJ, you know, so it was a lot of fun.

• 34:21Josh Horowitz?

  Did we squeeze enough juice out of the collector? Did you get your money's worth? Do you feel like you got, you know, enough to do? Is there more on the table?

• 34:28Speaker 02

  I definitely, there's more on the table. Yeah.

• 34:30Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 34:31Speaker 02

  Definitely, definitely, there's more on the table, you know. It's not up to me, but I think there's.

• 34:36Josh Horowitz?

  Your game, you're, you're, you're available.

• 34:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:38Josh Horowitz?

  Okay. Tech avail.

• 34:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:39Josh Horowitz?

  Directors that have, have gotten away, um, you worked, I, I listed the amazing directors. I noted you, you worked with Michael Mann on a commercial though. You didn't get the film experience.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  No, I didn't. Um, I worked with Michael Mann. I also, you know, as a producer as well, I worked with Michael Mann much earlier because I did a Miami Vice.

• 34:59Josh Horowitz?

  Right, of course.

• 34:59Speaker 02

  And I also did a TV series called Drug Wars, the Kiki Camarena story that, that Michael Mann produced, so. So Michael Mann is, was there at the very beginning of my, of my career.

• 35:11Josh Horowitz?

  You feel like a natural to fit into that world.

• 35:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:14Josh Horowitz?

  He's, he's, he's, he's one of the greats. I'd love to see you in.

• 35:16Speaker 02

  Definitely.

• 35:17Josh Horowitz?

  Any other filmmakers that you've been chasing or that you're surprised haven't?

• 35:20Speaker 02

  I, you know, there's, there's a lot of filmmakers that, you know, I haven't worked with that are great, but, you know, I just.

• 35:27Josh Horowitz?

  You can only do so much.

• 35:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you, and you, you, you know, these filmmakers, when they, when they come find you, you know, if, if you're not busy doing something else, believe me, you jump at the opportunity, like, you know, like Wes Anderson. Some movies that are like. That they don't get the recognition when they come out.

• 35:46Josh Horowitz?

  Right, Fear and Loathing is one.

• 35:48Speaker 02

  Fear and Loathing is one. I mean, we got like that cold bucket of ice. And then it finds an audience and then you kind of go like, well, we weren't wrong after all.

• 36:00Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:00Speaker 02

  Cause there's a lot of doubt that happens when you do a film and you put it out there for people to see it and, you know, some people talk about it, critics come in and they talk about it and they say things and sometimes, you know, they might say things and you go, well, maybe they're right and maybe we were wrong and da, da, da. But it's kind of like amazing when there is a film that finds an audience.

• 36:19Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 36:19Speaker 02

  And Fear and Loathing is, it was a journey like that. It was like really neglected when it came out and then little by little, you know,

• 36:29Speaker 02

  it was one of those films that people, you know, come to me and, and say, oh, Fear and Loathing, Fear and Loathing. You know, the other one that is like that, but it was a success in a way, Sicario.

• 36:40Josh Horowitz?

  Sicario, yeah. Got a recension at the time, but you're right, in, in the, in the years since now, it's hailed as a classic. It's an all time now.

• 36:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, it just, it just kind of like, yeah, it travels in time real well, yeah.

• 36:50Josh Horowitz?

  Odds today of the, uh, the sequel. I know that you, you mentioned that there.

• 36:53Speaker 02

  There's talk about it, yeah. I haven't read anything, so we're hoping, you know, fingers crossed, yeah.

• 36:59Josh Horowitz?

  Uh, you re-teamed with PTA. I, this is maybe my most anticipated of the rest of the year. Um, get to work with Leo. That's gotta be special and fun.

• 37:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:09Josh Horowitz?

  Guys are contemporaries. You go way back, I assume.

• 37:11Speaker 02

  We go way back as friends and we never worked together and finally we worked together and it was a lot of fun.

• 37:16Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 37:16Speaker 02

  You know, it was, I finished this and I went straight into that.

• 37:20Josh Horowitz?

  That's a good double header.

• 37:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, it'd be real like, oh, yeah, it was kind of like, okay, you know, it was like, you, you run a marathon and then they go, hey, you have to run another one. Uh, when? Tomorrow.

• 37:31Josh Horowitz?

  Um, did you, did you and Leo back in the day go up for the same roles? Like you were contemporaries, you were.

• 37:36Speaker 02

  No, no, I don't, I don't think so.

• 37:38Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 37:39Speaker 02

  I don't think, you know. Leo is Leo is Leo. You know, it's like, you know, but did I, did I, I don't think we did. But, you know, we've been friends for a long time. I'm a fan. And, you know, and so it was really nice to work with him and to be in the process. We had a lot of laughs.

• 38:01Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 38:02Speaker 02

  Also, I'm a, you know, working with Sean, even though I don't have any scenes with him.

• 38:08Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 38:09Speaker 02

  But being in a movie with him, I haven't seen him in a long time.

• 38:12Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 38:13Speaker 02

  It was kind of cool.

• 38:14Josh Horowitz?

  All right, we're gonna end with this. Happy second, few profoundly random questions. Are you a dog or cat person, Benicio?

• 38:20Speaker 02

  I think I'm a dog person, but I like cats too.

• 38:23Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, I'm with you. Do you collect anything?

• 38:26Speaker 02

  Um, yeah, I think I collect, I, I, I do like sprint collecting in a way. I just collect something for a little while and then I stopped collecting. But now the, the thing I've been collecting, and it's, maybe it's not collecting, it's just, I like it. You know, it's just, it's just music, you know, I think, you know, I keep investigating music. Keep finding music that I didn't know existed, you know?

• 38:54Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 38:55Speaker 02

  Um, so I've been listening to, when I was in Berlin, was, was going after some krautrock. Um, um, and then, you know, a lot of reggae. Some reggaeton from, from San Juan, gotten into that too. So, but I think vinyl.

• 39:15Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 39:15Speaker 02

  It's been like a thing, like, that is like, it's a lot of fun to go back to it. And it sounds better, I think.

• 39:21Josh Horowitz?

  Physical media, always.

• 39:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:23Josh Horowitz?

  Favorite video game of all time?

• 39:25Speaker 02

  Pac-Man.

• 39:26Josh Horowitz?

  Old school, like, love it.

• 39:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:28Josh Horowitz?

  What's the wallpaper on your phone?

• 39:30Speaker 02

  It's by a picture of my daughter.

• 39:32Josh Horowitz?

  This is the correct answer. Last act, better be, right? Last actor you were mistaken for?

• 39:39Speaker 02

  Um.

• 39:42Speaker 02

  Guillermo del Toro.

• 39:45Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 39:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:46Josh Horowitz?

  Great filmmaker.

• 39:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, great filmmaker.

• 39:48Josh Horowitz?

  No resemblance, but great filmmaker.

• 39:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 39:50Josh Horowitz?

  What's the worst note a director has ever given you?

• 39:55Speaker 02

  I don't know if he was a director. It was this sound person a long time ago. I think he said, you know, you can never take an article of clothing and talk at the same time.

• 40:04Josh Horowitz?

  Saying that's specific to you?

• 40:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can never take off an article of clothing while speaking at the same time.

• 40:10Josh Horowitz?

  Is that a general rule for you specifically?

• 40:12Speaker 02

  I think it was a general rule, but it was kind of like, well.

• 40:16Josh Horowitz?

  Isn't that what living and like acting in the real spaces?

• 40:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think they were more concerned about.

• 40:21Josh Horowitz?

  Sound.

• 40:21Speaker 02

  Their sound, you know, like, yeah, so you act for the sound man, the sound woman.

• 40:25Josh Horowitz?

  Talk, then remove clothing. And finally, the spirit of happy sad confused. An actor who always makes you happy. You see them on screen, you're immediately happier.

• 40:36Josh Horowitz?

  Who comes to mind?

• 40:37Speaker 02

  That's a lot.

• 40:38Josh Horowitz?

  I know.

• 40:38Speaker 02

  You know, that's a lot. That's a lot. That's a lot. I mean, Marlon Brando is like, you know, he comes up and, you know, I just go there. But there are so many Humphrey Bogart. I mean, I look at those old guys, you know, and, you know, keep them alive that way. But, uh, and there's a lot of contemporary too that, you know.

• 40:57Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 40:58Speaker 02

  You know, Tom Hanks, you know, um, you know, Scarlett Johansson.

• 41:04Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 41:05Speaker 02

  You know, yeah.

• 41:06Josh Horowitz?

  A movie that makes you sad?

• 41:14Speaker 02

  It's a Wonderful Life.

• 41:15Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, that comes up a lot.

• 41:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:17Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 41:22Speaker 02

  Huh. That's a good question. Would you have sent those to me before?

• 41:27Josh Horowitz?

  That's a good answer.

• 41:28Speaker 02

  I would nail it then.

• 41:28Josh Horowitz?

  No, you nailed it.

• 41:29Speaker 02

  No, no, but it's like, yeah, but it's like, you know, yeah, but yeah, definitely. That one.

• 41:32Josh Horowitz?

  That's a good one.

• 41:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:33Josh Horowitz?

  And, and last not least, a food that makes you confused. Benicio, you don't get it. Why do people enjoy that food? You see it on the menu. Not going near that.

• 41:46Josh Horowitz?

  Olives. I'm with you. Hate olives. Oh, you do? Hate olives. Oh, wow. I know. I don't know for some reason. I don't know what's in there. Olive oil. Me too. Yeah. So, you know. We got this. Yeah, we got this. We share Good Taste of Films and Hatred of Olives. Um, congratulations, man. Uh, Phoenician Scheme is exceptional. Wes always delivers. You always deliver in this combination. Oh, thank you. It's fantastic. Thank you. Thank you so much for taking the time today, man. I appreciate you. You're welcome. Thank you.

• 42:14Speaker 03

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.

• 42:34Speaker 06

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