Friendship - My Reliable Gift

This is a classic session of Where Should We Begin? In a Where Should We Begin first, Esther sits down with two friends. They’ve been close for so long they feel like brothers, with all of the baggage that comes with family but none of the certainty. There are things that go unspoken between them, issues they have skimmed over in their two decades of friendship. Esther creates the space for the conversation they didn't know quite where to begin. This session was recorded in collaboration with NPR's Invisibilia and a sibling episode with Esther can be heard on their podcast this week as well. Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  What you are about to hear is a classic session of Where Should We Begin? With Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's. And each episode is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real.

• 0:29Speaker 01

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• 1:03Speaker 02

  I'm Josh Muccio, host of The Pitch, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. For our sweet season 16, we're giving you more of what you love and less of what you don't. Software is out. Actual cool stuff is in. We've got consumer brands, deep tech that changes the weather.

• 1:22Speaker 03

  Our big vision is to make it rain and snow on demand.

• 1:25Speaker 02

  We've got hardware that helps blind people see. And dairy?

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• 1:32Speaker 02

  Season 16 of The Pitch is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. This season is presented by Engine.

• 1:42Speaker 05

  It's one of those things where it's like, oh, yeah. You know, we both say like best friends, but like, are we?

• 1:51Esther Perel?

  Do you have a best friend? And what does best friend mean to you?

• 1:58Esther Perel?

  And is your best friend your oldest friend? Or is your best friend the one with whom you share the most today?

• 2:06Esther Perel?

  Who hasn't had to ask themselves, if someone is my friend, what does that friendship mean? Has that friendship outlived itself?

• 2:17Speaker 05

  Neither of us had really been prioritizing the friendship anymore, I think, in the same way that maybe we had when we were younger.

• 2:25Speaker 07

  So we met in preschool. I think a lot of personalities, a lot of our experiences, a lot of who we are is very intertwined at a pretty subconscious level.

• 2:36Speaker 05

  So much of our identities and our ego is actually weirdly intertwined and wrapped up with seeing the other, appraising the other in some way.

• 2:49Esther Perel?

  Friendship is the most free-choice relationship. It's a relationship that is mutual, reciprocal, and it's very difficult to be the friend of someone for whom we are not the friend. So it has something that demands equity.

• 3:08Speaker 07

  There's just tensions that exist between us two, and we're both kind of strong personalities. And there's a little bit of competitive spirit that comes from that. I mean, it really is like a brotherly relationship in that way. There's just been kind of drifting apart.

• 3:22Speaker 05

  For so long, I've always thought of him as my best friend. I think only maybe in the past year or two, I've really started to question that.

• 3:32Esther Perel?

  Everybody has questioned their friendships at some point in their lives. And I wanted to explore that unique relationship called my best friend.

• 3:47Esther Perel?

  I think that one of the essential questions I understood that you have between both of you is,

• 3:55Esther Perel?

  do we share a passion? Or how has this passion now become more of a competition? What is that friction that we both experience? So there is no major divergent narrative here. It's not like you think our story is one thing and you think that the story is something else.

• 4:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 4:15Esther Perel?

  So part of his being here is...

• 4:20Esther Perel?

  The conversations you haven't had.

• 4:22Speaker 07

  Right.

• 4:22Esther Perel?

  The conversations you have in your head and the ones that may emerge that you have no idea about.

• 4:27Speaker 07

  Yeah. Yeah, wow.

• 4:31Esther Perel?

  And we have time.

• 4:32Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, wow. Yeah, I I think there's a lot of stuff we've sort of scratched the surface a little bit to go deeper, but we haven't really gone. We haven't really gone deep enough. Yeah. We haven't really spent time in the deep end. Nope. And a part of it is because we're now in different cities, I think, and like we used to spend so much time together. Where it was easy to really understand and intuitively know where the other person was at, and we were going through life together.

• 4:57Esther Perel?

  Can you share a little bit about the history?

• 4:59Speaker 07

  Yeah, definitely. So we went to preschool together, which is where we met and um our families met. And from what they say and from our our memories back then, we were best friends in in preschool. Uh and then we actually didn't see each other for about a decade. Fate sort of brought us back together. We were working in the same place and I recognized his face. Yeah, I remember being like, oh, that guy looks familiar.

• 5:24Esther Perel?

  The families knew each other too?

• 5:25Speaker 07

  Yeah, it was kind of crazy. So his dad ran a restaurant in the community. It was like the only Indian restaurant. And my parents made the website for it. And so we would go to the restaurant all the time. It was my favorite restaurant growing up. And you know, our parents would just sort of like chat about each other, just checking in, you know, how's he doing? How am I doing? I actually think in this style of South Asian parenting and talking about kids is like a pretty competitive style of communication. For sure. Oh, he's been doing this. What are you doing in sports? What are you doing academics? It's always different.

• 5:56Esther Perel?

  They don't just tell stories, they brag.

• 5:59Speaker 07

  There's always a little bit of bragging involved. Yeah.

• 6:03Esther Perel?

  Their parents would compare notes and tell each other what each child is doing, and they would report that to their kids. So that when ten years later they met again, they kind of were updated. And they met for a few years. They were in different schools, but very tight. And then they parted again during college years. And they have had a kind of an accordion relationship where they go in and out of each other's life physically. While always remaining deeply connected emotionally.

• 6:38Speaker 07

  Yeah, I mean, when when we met again, I had never come across anybody in my life until that point that I felt more similar to. We grew up in a pretty small town where most people, it's sort of simple minded, simple life with goals and what they're trying to do, how, what gave them joy.

• 6:56Esther Perel?

  How did your parents get there? To that small town?

• 6:59Speaker 07

  Yeah, I mean, it's not a tiny town, but it's definitely a, you know, southern neighborhood.

• 7:04Esther Perel?

  Like, when you say we share, you include backgrounds?

• 7:08Speaker 07

  Yeah, I think so, for sure. I mean, you know, South Asian immigrant parents.

• 7:13Esther Perel?

  From?

• 7:13Speaker 07

  My parents are from India, his parents are from Bangladesh.

• 7:16Speaker 08

  Yep.

• 7:17Speaker 07

  My parents came to America and, you know, they were placed in a really rural town in Alabama by a visa sponsorship organization. That's where I was born, so my sister was born. And then, when I was about three or four, they moved to Atlanta to work at Home Depot.

• 7:34Speaker 08

  Yeah, I mean, I think this is one of the differentiators that I always carried as well, is that my family came through a less traditional route. My dad actually came to the States undocumented, to New York, actually. And he had a sibling who, you know, legally lived in Atlanta. And so she was like, oh, come here, there's a lot of trees, it's like Bangladesh. And so he came to Atlanta with really just like $500 in his pocket. He just worked really hard, you know, got married, then decided to open that restaurant, and that's kind of how we began.

• 8:05Esther Perel?

  Your mom is also Bangladesh?

• 8:07Speaker 08

  Yes, and my mom also no schooling beyond a high school level. So my parents are just a bit more like traditional and also didn't come from like an educated path. And so that was, I think, like a differentiator as well. And I, and I felt that also as well.

• 8:24Esther Perel?

  Differentiator between the two of you, you mean?

• 8:26Speaker 08

  Yeah, definitely, because for so long, growing up, it was, there was so much like anxiety around their lack of education. And like, they've carried that insecurity themselves pretty deeply, but wanted to like level up in terms of socioeconomic class. And so like strivers in that sense. And so I think that even made them actually nervous to ever develop a relationship much deeper with his parents. And I actually remember talking to my, my parents about that, being like, oh, we, you know, we could all hang out and, you know. Uh I remember my mom was like, oh, you know, like, they don't wanna hang out with us. Like, we didn't, we don't have any schooling or anything like that, so.

• 9:02Speaker 07

  That's, that's crazy to hear.

• 9:05Esther Perel?

  Did you know that?

• 9:05Speaker 07

  I did not know that, yeah.

• 9:06Speaker 08

  Yeah, so, but I think one of the, the similar thing is we were one of the few South Asian families in our, in our town. Um, so regardless of the different directions that we came, uh, that was the, the common linkage there for sure. Um, and growing up, there was no other person that I met who was, you know, loved their, their traditional heritage as much as also being quite comfortable in like predominantly like white spaces, um, which is where we grew up. I think one distinction I also always carried is that, uh, he's Catholic, was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school. I'm Muslim, and so I always felt a little bit more of an outsider in that way. Um, I also.

• 9:48Esther Perel?

  A Nithin?

• 9:49Speaker 08

  Oh, yeah, big time in that town. Um, I used to, you know, I remember when Osama bin Laden, uh, was killed. People were like, oh, yo, sorry to hear about your uncle, like really intense, um, Islamophobia growing up. And I think, uh, that is also something that I envied, um, you know, uh, it would just make me wonder.

• 10:07Esther Perel?

  All that?

• 10:09Speaker 07

  Yeah, this is all, I mean, yeah, no, not, not really. I mean, some stuff I was obviously aware of, just knowing that he's Muslim and.

• 10:16Speaker 08

  And my family.

• 10:16Esther Perel?

  No, it's not that, it's not that that he is, it's what that experience.

• 10:21Speaker 07

  Yeah, means to.

• 10:22Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 10:23Speaker 07

  I really wish we.

• 10:23Esther Perel?

  And then he says, he says a little.

• 10:25Speaker 07

  Yeah, it means it's a lot, yeah.

• 10:27Speaker 08

  I, I try to downplay it, but.

• 10:29Esther Perel?

  Don't.

• 10:29Speaker 08

  Okay.

• 10:30Esther Perel?

  Or at least not here.

• 10:31Speaker 08

  Okay, okay.

• 10:32Speaker 07

  I, I think it makes me.

• 10:34Esther Perel?

  Here is okay.

• 10:34Speaker 08

  Hmm.

• 10:35Esther Perel?

  We, we will take it as it was, not as you've tried to make it.

• 10:41Speaker 08

  It was shitty, it was definitely shitty. Um, and so I think it's easier for me to downplay it so that I can relate on a level to like, uh, you know, best friend, um, and so.

• 10:54Esther Perel?

  But you just told your best friend some nuances of your experience.

• 11:00Speaker 08

  Yeah, yeah, I guess I never like put those pieces together, but.

• 11:04Esther Perel?

  Let's hear, let's hear how.

• 11:06Speaker 07

  Yeah, I mean, well, I I think there is nothing in your story that I didn't know.

• 11:10Speaker 08

  Right.

• 11:11Speaker 07

  But in terms of how that story made you feel different from me. And the the the amount that it made you feel different from me is is, yeah, it's makes me sad for a couple of reasons, obviously, because I honestly feel like this would have been really great to have talked about earlier on, the difference there, because honestly, I think the gap that you feel for me is not the same gap that I grew up feeling with you.

• 11:37Speaker 08

  Right.

• 11:38Speaker 07

  My context is relative to the people around me.

• 11:41Speaker 08

  Mm hmm.

• 11:42Speaker 07

  Much more of a gap than my gap with you, to the extent where even knowing all these differences with you, it never felt like there was a difference. Obviously, there is, you feel it, that's your experience, but my parents, sure, they definitely the biggest difference is the education, but they had a really rough time in this country, like really, really rough time. My dad was here by himself for seven years after getting engaged for a week. You know, and had to like work in a factory for most of that time and like even though I went to a like a Catholic school, like my parents went in serious debt for that, did not grow up, you know, super well off at all. And like felt like, you know, I I mean, I I I got Islamophobia too.

• 12:22Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 12:22Speaker 07

  Even though I'm not, and you're just the only person, I was in an all white space in school my entire life, which was like a space where I envied you, like you got to grow up with diversity.

• 12:32Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 12:32Speaker 07

  Um, and like I always wished I went to public school um because of that and like did not enjoy going to a school where I didn't have that kind of experience.

• 12:39Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 12:40Speaker 07

  Um, and um, or even like enough experience to feel comfortable being around other other uh South Asian people or just not getting to do that. My parents never were able to deeply connect with people who weren't from the same exact community as them. And all of those were things that I felt like, yes, our experiences are different, but they're both so much more different than everybody else is here that we connect really like deeply because of that.

• 13:06Speaker 08

  Right.

• 13:06Speaker 07

  Yeah, so I guess it just makes me sad that you've like gone so much of your life feeling like there was that much of a a gap and not sharing that because I would have loved to like stepped in more there or.

• 13:18Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 13:19Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 13:20Speaker 08

  I I would say, I mean, I I think I carried that gap earlier in our friendship.

• 13:28Esther Perel?

  From the moment they met, they shared a ton together. But here, as they walked in, stuff was pouring out of them, of the ways that they had each observed the other, the other's family, with things that they had actually never said out loud. And also pieces of their own experience, particularly more painful aspects. And it reminded me, when my childhood friends meet my adult friends, the adult friends always want to know, how was she when she was little? And what's so amazing is the way that we take each other in at six, what we perceive, how we understood the family. It's amazing, the little details that we stay with

• 14:11Esther Perel?

  of how we internalize someone when we were young.

• 14:21Speaker 00

  We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad-free, click the Try Free button to subscribe to Astaire's Office Hours on Apple Podcasts.

• 14:38Speaker 02

  I'm Josh Mucio, host of The Pitch, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. For our sweet season 16, we're giving you more of what you love and less of what you don't.

• 14:49Speaker 09

  I definitely start to blank out when we're talking about middleware AI wrappers.

• 14:54Speaker 02

  Software is out. Actual cool stuff is in. We've got consumer brands. We're building Eight Sleep for daytime. Hardware that helps blind people see.

• 15:04Speaker 10

  They kept asking for Middlefinger. Next thing we knew, we had like 10 students running around flipping each other off.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  We've got deep tech to change the weather.

• 15:12Speaker 03

  Our big vision is to make it rain and snow on demand.

• 15:15Speaker 11

  What if you wanted to not make it rain somewhere else? Like, one day, we're just like, screw Arizona.

• 15:22Speaker 02

  And dairy?

• 15:24Speaker 04

  I never imagined my life journey would be milk.

• 15:26Speaker 02

  Season 16 of The Pitch is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. This season is presented by Engine.

• 15:36Speaker 12

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• 16:04Speaker 13

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• 16:34Speaker 08

  I remember when I actually learned about your family's financial anxieties, because I actually, I didn't know, I thought y'all were like pretty like well off. I didn't actually know that like there was all of this underneath. Because on the surface, you see one thing and then that detail, I definitely helped that.

• 16:53Speaker 07

  Yeah, I mean, my family definitely tried to present, like my parents definitely tried to present differently than when I was there. And like, and we didn't, we just don't talk about that stuff. Like I didn't grow up, we didn't talk about anything, so I didn't know. And, but it was clear, like, my family, you know, we just didn't talk about money and we didn't do things. We never really did anything extravagantly. My parents would just save up all their money just to go to India every few years.

• 17:16Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 17:17Speaker 07

  I mean, that's the reason I've been doing my own thing, you know? Like, I didn't want to be a burden financially to my parents. I've been, I've been paying for everything in my life since I was like 16, specifically so that I don't have to, you know, add to that burden specifically so that I can try to help them and like give back for their sacrifice, you know, which I know you talk about and you feel as well.

• 17:38Speaker 08

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 17:40Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 17:41Esther Perel?

  You both help your families?

• 17:44Speaker 08

  Yeah, like.

• 17:45Speaker 07

  He definitely does more so.

• 17:47Speaker 08

  Yeah, like regular, regular payments to them. One of the things that I really admire is he uh, um, I don't know if this is.

• 17:55Speaker 07

  Yeah, you could.

• 17:55Speaker 08

  Okay, cool, like uh, lo- you know, launched his own company. And it's something that I really wanna do. I don't have a safety net, um, like as soon as I stop making money, that's an income source that's lost the family. And they can't support me doing this. And so like, I always really admired and envious too, I think like envious too.

• 18:15Speaker 07

  Yeah, I mean, I think that's accurate, like I don't wanna, I don't wanna make it seem like we come from the exact same background, right?

• 18:20Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 18:21Speaker 07

  I think there is, there's obviously a difference there and um, one that I absolutely recognize.

• 18:26Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 18:27Speaker 07

  Um, and I think part of the reason I, I didn't share at all is because I didn't feel like it was my space to share because.

• 18:32Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 18:33Speaker 07

  You know, that, that you had more that you were dealing with, so I didn't wanna take away from that.

• 18:36Speaker 08

  That's tough.

• 18:38Esther Perel?

  Some of the things that you don't address, you, your intention is to protect the other.

• 18:49Speaker 08

  I think that's where the last.

• 18:50Esther Perel?

  Finish the sentence.

• 18:51Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 18:51Speaker 07

  Yeah, I mean, you know, as much as I felt like we were in this together, this is someone I can relate to, someone who shares all these things that I feel.

• 18:59Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 19:00Speaker 07

  You've just always been so authentic, so open in ways that I've always been very self-protective. You know, I never talk about anything that's like a point of stress, like growing up, I didn't. And um, you were the first person I felt like, okay, I don't, still don't really need to talk about it, but I at least feel very comfortable here. But I also.

• 19:18Esther Perel?

  When he talks like an open book.

• 19:21Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 19:22Esther Perel?

  What's it like for you?

• 19:24Speaker 07

  Total just admiration. How can someone be like this? How can someone go through this world that I'm, I feel like I'm also going through and be so comfortable sharing like, sharing about themselves? Um, it's been, I think, the, the part that has been both I, I want to, I want to emulate. And that I've been, if we're talking about, you know, like jealousy, envy, or like. You know, that's something that I absolutely don't feel like I have. And it's it's part of the reason why you cultivate such a deep relationship so quickly. And I just I just don't let myself really get there. And I don't know if I'm like, you know, capable to do it super well. So so, yeah, and so I felt like we were in this together, but also

• 20:06Speaker 07

  I did feel like there was more tension in in your life, like pulling at you, holding you back, guiding the way that you had to make decisions. Whereas I did still feel like I could sort of choose my own path here.

• 20:19Esther Perel?

  When they talk about being one among a few South Asian families in the South, they emphasize the similarities. But when they start to peel the layers of the differences between them and the nuances of their backgrounds and their respective family cultures, the differences become much more manifest. What they admire, what they envy, what they compete about, what they hide, what they long for, and what they share.

• 20:53Esther Perel?

  Same one.

• 20:54Speaker 07

  Well, I mean, your your family was asking of you things directly. Whereas my my parents never talked about things. They were under duress all the time, but they never shared anything. And as a result, they never asked me directly to do anything in a way that his his family was always asking him to like, help here, do this.

• 21:15Esther Perel?

  What you think makes for that difference?

• 21:17Speaker 07

  I I do think there's a level of financial security, I'm sure, to some degree, but also culture.

• 21:24Esther Perel?

  In what sense?

• 21:25Speaker 07

  In our family's culture, there's just not really a like an asking for help ever.

• 21:31Esther Perel?

  Asking for help from the children or period, meaning

• 21:36Speaker 07

  Period.

• 21:37Esther Perel?

  The parents take care of the kids and the kids are meant to be kids versus the parents and the kids are part of one system and everybody has responsibilities and everybody takes care of everyone.

• 21:51Speaker 07

  Hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think it's.

• 21:53Esther Perel?

  Is that what we're talking about?

• 21:54Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah.

• 21:55Speaker 08

  Yeah, that that's very, very heavy. I I as even you were talking about the asks, I was just feeling the burdens on my body of just like, oh, God, all of the things.

• 22:06Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 22:06Speaker 08

  That I have that I'm being asked.

• 22:08Esther Perel?

  In in in a certain kind of a western sense of the word, you were defined as a child.

• 22:14Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 22:15Esther Perel?

  And you were defined as a little adult.

• 22:18Speaker 08

  Yep.

• 22:19Speaker 07

  Yeah, that's the I think that's a big because my parents were always wanting to protect. My sister and I from having to deal with this world.

• 22:27Esther Perel?

  That's right.

• 22:28Speaker 07

  And they would do everything behind closed doors. They would do everything without us knowing out of no matter what that took.

• 22:34Esther Perel?

  And you associate that to your parents, to their particular culture, to their being Catholic Indians, to which part of it or to whatever.

• 22:44Speaker 07

  I think to our like our family culture. They're both older siblings. We have huge family. They're both the oldest of like forty plus first cousins. And in growing up in India.

• 22:55Esther Perel?

  They were in his role.

• 22:57Speaker 07

  They were in his role.

• 22:58Esther Perel?

  And they wanted to make sure that their kids that have to be.

• 23:00Speaker 07

  Didn't have to, exactly.

• 23:02Esther Perel?

  Oh, my God, interesting.

• 23:03Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 23:04Esther Perel?

  So you, in a way, grew up with the notion that I'm gonna be so independent that I don't have to ask them for anything.

• 23:11Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 23:11Esther Perel?

  And you grew up with the notion that I'm gonna make it so that I can give them everything they need.

• 23:18Speaker 08

  That is the dream. Yeah.

• 23:20Esther Perel?

  My heart goes out to both of you, because both are very, very caring, thoughtful. Stances of which some of it was articulated early on and some of it you intuitively understood and are now putting words to.

• 23:35Speaker 07

  Hmm.

• 23:35Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 23:36Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 23:37Speaker 08

  Yeah, I think we both really related.

• 23:40Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 23:40Speaker 08

  On the care for our families, like deep, deep feeling that there was things that we needed to alleviate. But I think that breakdown makes it a clear distinction of like the different ways that we internalize and approach it. Like I think growing up, like your parents found a lot of meaning and joy in seeing you like have fun, whereas my parents wanted me to have happiness and joy, but it was so rooted in like this family web.

• 24:13Speaker 07

  I will say, it hasn't been a light, easy path with my parents at all, like growing, going through that. I, I had to, I split from my parents, you know, like I had a ton of, for a full year and a half, like just, just didn't talk to my, my mom.

• 24:29Esther Perel?

  In order to?

• 24:30Speaker 07

  In order to start from scratch, do my own thing, carve my own path and not feel, not feel bound to a, a world that I didn't choose.

• 24:38Esther Perel?

  So it's a, it's a kind of a tension between my loyalty to my family and my pursuit of my individual achievements, America?

• 24:49Speaker 07

  Absolutely. It was an east meets west conflict. Yeah.

• 24:53Esther Perel?

  It's very powerful what you're saying, right? You're kind of dividing this a little bit in a, in a dualistic way, right? The interdependence versus the self-reliance. If I wanted to be able to finally pursue, and not only did I have to not talk about anything, which was your first degree, but the next degree was I had to cut off for a bit in order to not hear them inside of me, which of course doesn't really work this way. And, and so the, the, you know, you pay a price. You pay a price of the disconnect inside. You get to achieve, but you also get to numb yourself.

• 25:38Esther Perel?

  And to cut off parts of you. You don't just cut off your parents. And you end up feeling, at some point I have to accept my rhythm. He won't go in the same speed.

• 25:49Speaker 08

  Mm hmm.

• 25:50Esther Perel?

  Because I can never think what do I want separately from how does it affect them.

• 25:56Speaker 08

  Mm hmm.

• 25:57Esther Perel?

  It's a different way of placing the self.

• 26:00Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 26:01Esther Perel?

  And you're twenty, what, five, both of you? So it's a, you know, this is also developmental.

• 26:07Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 26:07Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 26:08Esther Perel?

  Right?

• 26:08Speaker 07

  Yeah. Well, and that was when I was sixteen.

• 26:12Esther Perel?

  That you didn't speak.

• 26:14Speaker 07

  That, you know, looking back, it's it's the experience that I have the most guilt around, without a doubt, because, um, I mean, there was a fracture in my relationship with them, and there's been healing. Um, but I still feel that tension unless I can do something that is just so much greater than they would have expected me, or that I would have been able to. Um, is to be able to just, you know, pay off all their debts and like, you know, let them travel, let them relax.

• 26:41Esther Perel?

  Because that would justify why you had to do what you had to do.

• 26:45Speaker 07

  Exactly.

• 26:45Esther Perel?

  But they may be wiser than you on that.

• 26:48Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 26:48Esther Perel?

  Maybe they actually, if you even could explain that to them.

• 26:53Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 26:53Esther Perel?

  That in itself.

• 26:55Speaker 07

  Yeah, I I I think I'm just afraid.

• 26:57Esther Perel?

  And what would happen? I know that that's not part of the friendship.

• 27:01Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 27:01Esther Perel?

  But I I also think he could be extraordinarily helpful to you on that.

• 27:06Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, um.

• 27:09Esther Perel?

  It's like you are the person he looks at when he wants to think about pursuing himself. You look to him when you are looking at how to maintain connection. And these two are hand, go hand in hand, actually. They don't exist without each other.

• 27:29Speaker 08

  Mm hmm. I bet that this way that you think of attachment to your parents and like, the way that it relates to your own self-growth, I'm sure it manifests in our relationship as well as like very close friends, because.

• 27:43Esther Perel?

  Bang.

• 27:44Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 27:45Esther Perel?

  How?

• 27:47Esther Perel?

  I was waiting for that.

• 27:48Speaker 08

  Yeah, I mean, like, I feel like sometimes in our friendship, um, and I I like hear you make the effort sometimes. But I think sometimes I worry that like the growth is more important than the like relationship.

• 28:03Esther Perel?

  Growth, you mean the achievement?

• 28:05Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 28:05Esther Perel?

  Accomplishments.

• 28:06Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 28:07Esther Perel?

  Success.

• 28:08Speaker 08

  Like your journey, um, that like you're on and uh because I also look up to you and I admire you. Like I've I've tried to live that way too, and it's just caused me insane distress. Like I've tried to push my family and it's just, it's just so hard, like it's really hard for me, um. And that's why I've had to accept like that it's just not also me. I actually don't really know about this period of um a year-long fracture um from your fam- your mother, but I also cannot even imagine it. Like I I I cannot, I it's beyond conception for me.

• 28:51Esther Perel?

  How does that resonate for you? The you are more interested in your pursuits and your self-development and your achievements than in the importance of your relationships, which includes him?

• 29:07Speaker 07

  Yeah, I've heard it from every partner I've ever had as well. Um, so I think it's, there's probably something to it. Um, I've always been someone who's had very specific kind of change in mind that's that's taken precedence over the people in my life, um, or even my own joy. I don't really do things for joy often, and I've just been very reactive in my re- relationships in general, um.

• 29:38Speaker 07

  We just worked, you know, like we, there's so much overlap, there's so much connection. We have such a similar sense of adventure and curiosity that when we were in the same space, especially early on when there weren't other people in our lives like that, the just, there was an explosion. Um, and there was no proactive, let's, let's do this, let's work on this, let's build this. And now, I don't think I've, I've like actively prioritized it. And um, I really do wanna be more intentional about it, but I haven't been.

• 30:10Esther Perel?

  Does he make sure that you get in, that you stay in touch? He's the one who reaches out?

• 30:15Speaker 07

  I think we both do every once in a while. I think it's changed recently.

• 30:18Speaker 08

  I've pulled back in the past couple of years, yeah.

• 30:20Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah. Even though.

• 30:21Esther Perel?

  Cause what? Finish your thought.

• 30:23Speaker 08

  Cause I, I mean, I was just like, is it really about like our best friendship? Or like, are you trying to meet other, like, I was sometimes feeling like, like, was it just like the adventures and the like growth that you experienced in our relationship? Or was it actually like, you know, us being best friends? Um, cause I felt like there were periods of time where I was like, if he just meets another person who will o- offer him more growth opportunities in terms of self and career, you will be more in tuned and interested in that as opposed to our friendship.

• 30:55Speaker 07

  Dang. Yeah, I mean, y- you'll always be my best friend.

• 31:00Speaker 08

  I mean, yeah.

• 31:01Speaker 07

  Yeah, there's just, there's never gonna be a connection that I.

• 31:03Esther Perel?

  But is there truth to this?

• 31:05Speaker 07

  Um, I mean, I, I can understand where that's coming from. And I, I absolutely think my behavior and where my mind was leading me in places, that, that's super fair and um, I'm, I'm sorry.

• 31:20Speaker 08

  I appreciate the apology, but I, I pulled back intentionally. You know, there's, a relationship is like a, like a rubber band, you know, like there's, I didn't want it to get to like a point where it ever snaps, so it was like, I, I needed to. Create some of that breathing room for us to like recognize that there was tension.

• 31:37Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 31:37Speaker 08

  Emerging, so I I always have faith um.

• 31:40Speaker 07

  Can I also say, I mean, you know, there I I can see where you're coming from. I also did feel something similar.

• 31:45Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 31:46Speaker 07

  Towards you, you know, because you're you're a super dynamic person, you make friends super easily.

• 31:51Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 31:51Speaker 07

  And you're always doing different things. And when we went off to college.

• 31:56Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 31:56Speaker 07

  Uh, you know, I I knew you were making really deep friendships with people.

• 32:00Speaker 08

  Mm hmm.

• 32:00Speaker 07

  Um, and I wasn't. I mean, I I was very much like I I wasn't trying to.

• 32:04Speaker 08

  Mm hmm.

• 32:04Speaker 07

  But was making a lot of different connections and acquaintances and, you know, people who I'd know. But wasn't making deep friendships. And that probably scared me. Um, I mean, it did scare me.

• 32:15Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 32:16Speaker 07

  Um, but I I don't think we really spent enough time validating what we meant to each other. And what we wanted to mean to each other at the time.

• 32:24Speaker 08

  Yeah, I think that was the nature of growing up in Georgia. We were these two male best friends. It was just so homophobic in that area that like even just saying things like. Talking about how much the relationship meant to one another was just like taboo, you know.

• 32:43Esther Perel?

  Too intimate?

• 32:44Speaker 08

  Yeah, too intimate. We never, and I think so what that happened for me going to college was. I was like, yo, like, um, uh, I mean, I was, I was like. You know, he's probably like, basically like, I I think I may have been throwing myself and trying to connect. With so many people. Yeah, because I thought you were making, like, I didn't think I was important as a best friend to you. And so I was throwing myself into that because I didn't feel secure enough in our friendship. To just trust that like that was always there.

• 33:21Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 33:21Speaker 08

  But I will say that for many years in college, like I avoided calling anyone like like a best friend.

• 33:27Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 33:28Speaker 08

  Because that was, I was always, you know, my best friend is is you.

• 33:33Esther Perel?

  It would have been like a betrayal?

• 33:34Speaker 08

  Yeah, it would have felt like a betrayal. And and then honestly, like, I think growing up, it was a lot of me trying to keep the. Relationship going and the friendship going. But I was like, oh, like. What if I'm stifling your growth? And that made me like insecure. And maybe I was like, I think there was one thing that.

• 33:49Esther Perel?

  Hold on, hold on.

• 33:50Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 33:50Esther Perel?

  Take a breath.

• 33:52Speaker 08

  Yeah, yeah, a lot, lot coming out.

• 33:53Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 33:55Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 33:57Esther Perel?

  Just take a moment.

• 33:58Speaker 08

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 34:03Speaker 07

  I remember, uh...

• 34:04Esther Perel?

  Hold on.

• 34:05Speaker 07

  Oh.

• 34:09Esther Perel?

  In the course of the session, every time they would start speaking truth, they'd start talking faster and faster and getting more and more revved up. And the anxiety that accompanied the revelations was such that I had to continuously temper, create rhythm, slow down, breathe, listen, and integrate.

• 34:38Esther Perel?

  And every time, they'd start to speed up again, as if they wanted to protect each other so much that they wouldn't say things that would hurt the other or annoy the other. And it just was pouring out. And then again, slow down, breathe, and integrate.

• 35:00Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

• 35:15Speaker 12

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• 35:43Speaker 13

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• 36:47Esther Perel?

  Sometimes it's about what needs to be said.

• 36:53Esther Perel?

  And then after that, it's about sitting quietly with what has just been said.

• 37:05Esther Perel?

  Part of what you're saying is we felt very, very close, but we've never told each other how close we feel.

• 37:17Esther Perel?

  But I knew that I couldn't call somebody else my best friend because it would be disloyal to you. That's super powerful.

• 37:26Speaker 08

  Yeah, wow. Some real shit.

• 37:30Speaker 07

  Yeah. Sounds like we let a bunch of our own insecurities about our relationship get in the way.

• 37:39Speaker 07

  I remember, I mean, so many occasions where you would tell me something really important in your life. And then you would follow it up with talking about how other people that you've shared this with have responded in different ways. And maybe that was you trying to protect yourself. For sure. But to me, that was, oh, he doesn't, he doesn't really need this relationship that much.

• 38:06Speaker 07

  Like, I feel like it's little things like that.

• 38:08Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 38:08Speaker 07

  And I was quiet, you know, I was sharing that, obviously.

• 38:13Esther Perel?

  So I tell you about my other friends so that you don't think that I am putting all my weight on you and that I'm too needy. And then I hear you tell me about the other friends. And so then I think I'm not that important after all.

• 38:31Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 38:32Esther Perel?

  And so each of you, who are so important to each other, leave these conversations thinking you're not that important after all. How ironic.

• 38:42Speaker 08

  Yeah, yeah, that is, that is true.

• 38:48Esther Perel?

  He just expressed the core of the conflict. And I didn't want them to just ride over it. In fact, he applied because he was feeling more and more that he was the best friend of the past. That the pursuit of the self-development and growth and achievement and success was such that he was in search of another best friend, the one that would accompany him into the next phase. And since he had chosen relationships over self,

• 39:31Esther Perel?

  he was moving at a different pace. And that would become the fracture in their relationship. And they needed to just sit with that for a moment. This is a dilemma that actually transcends their origins, their immigrant backgrounds. This is a piece in every friendship. Where is your individual pursuit more important than our bond? And if I start to feel that our bond is secondary to you, then I'm gonna retreat.

• 40:07Esther Perel?

  Do you share your love lives with each other? Do you talk about that?

• 40:11Speaker 08

  Yeah, yeah.

• 40:12Speaker 07

  I think tha- that was another area where I think uh early on.

• 40:16Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 40:16Speaker 07

  Was a big difference between us because I didn't really have a love life for a while because of a lot of insecurities I had.

• 40:24Esther Perel?

  What stood in the way for you when you say insecurities?

• 40:27Speaker 07

  Well, um, so this is one of the factors that led to my uh breaking point with my parents. When I was in middle school, you know, I uh was asked on a date and I really wanted to go. And finally worked up the courage to tell my mom and she completely shut me down. And it was like a traumatic experience for me at the time. Cause especially I'd been thinking about this for days and days and days before finally figuring out the words, testing it out, finally sharing it. First time really, I felt like I was sharing something that was off path from what they wanted of me. And that was a tension I carried with me for so long and I always wondered, you know, how can I do something?

• 41:07Speaker 07

  That my parents would be so not supportive of, um, you know, so it took me, it was until I got to college and like that I really was in a serious relationship for the first time and me.

• 41:17Esther Perel?

  And you were, you did boys, girls, them?

• 41:20Speaker 07

  Uh, yeah, I dated, I dated a, a, a woman in, in during college, um, we ended up dating for about a year and it was actually crazy when we finally started sharing.

• 41:29Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 41:29Speaker 07

  We were going through a lot of similar things and really crazy similarities in, in our relationships.

• 41:35Speaker 08

  We both started dating like our first serious partners in around the same time, actually.

• 41:41Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 41:42Speaker 08

  There came a period when we both realized we wanted to end our like romantic partnerships with our partners around the same time as well. And he was like, it's really hard, she's having a hard time, but like, I know it's not right for me. This is where my growth is headed, I'm gonna move in this direction. Whereas when I did it and I saw just the grief, just like the, the challenge and also like how I felt, I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I, I really love you, like you're a really important person in my life, like what am I doing here? So there was a lot of like thinking and I was all, I was really like looking at your example the whole time.

• 42:20Esther Perel?

  Why do you put them as opposed to each other? Your personal growth and your relationships, don't they go hand in hand?

• 42:29Speaker 08

  Um. We used to have a lot of conversations about this. Are romantic relationships actually a tether towards ultimate growth and achievement? And I believe that and I I will I.

• 42:45Esther Perel?

  That they are?

• 42:46Speaker 08

  I think at that I was I was under a lot of tension. I didn't know. I was like looking up to you and I wanted to be like you and I knew that like.

• 42:54Esther Perel?

  But it actually has been a bane for him.

• 42:56Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 42:57Speaker 07

  And the way I ended that relationship was awful.

• 43:00Speaker 08

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:01Speaker 07

  And I wish I didn't do it that way. I've learned a lot since then.

• 43:05Esther Perel?

  Meaning?

• 43:05Speaker 07

  Didn't really know.

• 43:07Esther Perel?

  Hold on a sec.

• 43:08Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 43:08Esther Perel?

  This is New York City.

• 43:09Speaker 07

  Yes, yeah. It's a metaphor for the emergency crisis I was in at the time.

• 43:19Speaker 07

  Yeah, meaning, you know, I I just didn't know how to communicate um and really have a conversation about it. It was really kind of came out of nowhere.

• 43:28Esther Perel?

  And why did you want to end things?

• 43:30Speaker 07

  Um, I was feeling.

• 43:32Esther Perel?

  Split that he's talking about?

• 43:34Speaker 07

  I felt like there was more of my energy um consistently that was going towards the relationship. Then I wanted and.

• 43:45Esther Perel?

  You never think that the relationship can give you energy that you can then use for your career pursuits? That it actually is an emboldening thing rather than a suck?

• 43:56Speaker 07

  It's a really good point. I mean, it's something that I need to I need to open myself up more to that idea.

• 44:02Esther Perel?

  There's a part of you that sees relationships and and that's what you described with your parents as restrictive.

• 44:09Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 44:10Esther Perel?

  You don't see them as generative.

• 44:12Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 44:13Esther Perel?

  It's like me versus.

• 44:15Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 44:15Esther Perel?

  And the relationship takes from me rather than the relationship offers me. Opens me, energizes me, you name it. It's not a jail.

• 44:24Speaker 07

  Biggest tension I feel with allowing myself to go there is this fear that. This person's goals, this person's energies, this person's desires, and and and what ours will be together will shift me away from some goals that I have that I care really deeply about. Yeah, because I made that split so early, I feel like I I can do things on my own, but and and I just feel like things will deviate me from the path. And I and I think like a lot of my emotional structures are probably deeply rooted with feeling very profound connections with people like you and my sister.

• 45:00Esther Perel?

  But he also ends up feeling like he becomes a deviation from your path.

• 45:04Speaker 07

  Yeah, I know. Well, it's it's weird because the reason I feel like I think my I feel comfortable doing things on my own is because I know I have such profound connections with people like him.

• 45:15Esther Perel?

  As long as he makes sure that the connection is preserved. But if he steps back like he did in the last two years, do you notice it?

• 45:24Speaker 07

  I definitely have, yeah.

• 45:25Esther Perel?

  After how long?

• 45:26Speaker 07

  No, well, throughout. It's definitely have recognized it. But I do sense, I think it's more than just an investment that isn't mutual. I think there's actually been some active growing apart.

• 45:37Esther Perel?

  Say more about the growing apart.

• 45:39Speaker 07

  There's like tension when like the last couple of years when we've just like hung out. It's felt like we're not only like sitting with that tension of not talking about it, but we are doing things consistently, saying little things here and there that add to that tension. You know, mentioning different things that we're each doing in a way that like, yeah, I just went on this trip here and like I just met these friends and here's an experience I just went on that is maybe something we would have done together back in the day. And it almost feels like a like a jab. Like, here's something that I am capable of doing this without you.

• 46:12Esther Perel?

  Like each one jabs the other with statements that say, look how great my life is without you.

• 46:17Speaker 07

  Something like that, yeah. But I think in terms of relationships, I I still am I see, I don't, I do see this as like an additive relationship to me.

• 46:27Esther Perel?

  Best friends is not what can you do for me? It's not organized around interest, ROI. It's a different level. And if you start to feel like we're each showing the other, hey, cool without you. And you start to do it as a way also of saying, I don't really miss you.

• 47:01Esther Perel?

  Go ahead.

• 47:03Speaker 08

  Yeah, I I think that's just spot like I was definitely I and I think it's coming back to not knowing where the others stood cuz you were a comp like you were doing some amazing things over the years and like like I said, I've looked up to you for so long for a while. I I didn't know where I would ness- I didn't know like yeah, whether I needed I had any value like in that in that uh

• 47:27Esther Perel?

  Yes, that's

• 47:28Speaker 08

  in that chain and I and I think there was a period where there was definitely the jabs where it was like oh, I actually don't need you either. You know what? I'm cool. And and was hoping that like me doing that would elicit some sort of reaction of oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, like what about us? And I think

• 47:44Esther Perel?

  Do you travel together?

• 47:47Speaker 08

  Uh.

• 47:47Esther Perel?

  Have you?

• 47:49Speaker 07

  Have we?

• 47:50Speaker 08

  I don't think so.

• 47:52Esther Perel?

  Oh, my god.

• 47:53Speaker 07

  Your mind maybe?

• 47:55Speaker 08

  Yeah, your mind, yeah.

• 47:56Esther Perel?

  Yes, yes. Internal journeys, you've done many.

• 47:59Speaker 08

  Yeah, we'd we'd never really been so intentional about like, you know, carving out that time for each other because we had been so accustomed to like being like, oh, you know, our friendship is so strong. We don't need to like intentionally maintain it like it's it's just a natural thing, you know, there's no there's no work or effort that needs to be put into it. You know, it's really not the case.

• 48:19Speaker 07

  Yeah, not at all. It's crazy cuz I mean, he's just someone who you're just someone who you're we were talking about this earlier, but you're you are really open and sharing with everybody that it's it's always been hard for me to know.

• 48:31Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 48:32Speaker 07

  Like, is there anything that's just preserved for me? That's where a lot for me is like, oh, you're gonna be good. You're gonna create support systems everywhere you go.

• 48:40Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 48:40Speaker 07

  Whereas in my world, it wasn't that at all. You know, I'm internalize more things. So, yeah, so it's it's just it's just interesting how that kind of adds to this too.

• 48:48Speaker 08

  Well, you're my favorite person to like take on the world with. I I realize and recognize it now, like when I said I want us to be lifelong friends just like because I want you to be in my life, like in my life, not like checking in here and there, but like, you know, be best friends.

• 49:05Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 49:05Speaker 08

  Um, and uh. I know for myself that I need to stop thinking about the amount of value I need to like provide or create um in order to like feel like you can justify this friendship. And I know that that's also a personal journey that you're trying to understand more around, but like that was how I was feeling for some time.

• 49:26Speaker 07

  I mean, I love you, man.

• 49:27Speaker 08

  I love you too, man.

• 49:28Speaker 07

  It's just like, I want you to know how much like you really do mean to me too, cuz uh you're not just like my my favorite like friend, you're you're the single like best human being I've ever met. You really are, like I really, I really think you're just

• 49:43Speaker 08

  Nah, you've met some great people.

• 49:45Speaker 07

  Incredible person, so like, there's no, I don't like the notion of like, I've never thought about this as like a value exchange. If anything, I've thought about the same exact thing of like

• 49:54Speaker 08

  Hmm.

• 49:55Speaker 07

  as someone who is so, like, I think of friendship and relationship being so grounded in sharing.

• 49:59Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 49:59Speaker 07

  And as someone who is who is so willing to share and comfortable sharing, like, do I offer anything uniquely here?

• 50:05Esther Perel?

  Can I ask you something?

• 50:06Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 50:07Esther Perel?

  I could ask so many different. I'm just curious in the moment. What do you think has made it so that you've never said any of these things to each other?

• 50:19Speaker 07

  Being freaking men?

• 50:20Speaker 08

  Yeah, I I think part like I feel the resistance of just like our our like upbringings and just being like

• 50:27Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 50:28Esther Perel?

  Upbringings or men, or men in in your upbringing?

• 50:33Speaker 08

  M- men in our specific upbringing.

• 50:35Esther Perel?

  I mean, I don't think that

• 50:37Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 50:37Esther Perel?

  Other men necessarily would have an easier time.

• 50:39Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 50:40Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 50:40Esther Perel?

  Two straight guys

• 50:42Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 50:42Esther Perel?

  who can admit to the love that they feel for each other. Is that what we're talking about?

• 50:47Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 50:48Speaker 08

  Probably.

• 50:48Esther Perel?

  So what is the taboo? When you say we're men, cisgendered straight guys, I mean, we're men, so what? What do we and what don't we?

• 50:58Speaker 07

  Yeah, I think we don't necessarily share our feelings about each other openly. I can do what I need to do, you know, I'm powerful, I don't need anybody else. Uh, I don't have vulnerabilities, that aspect.

• 51:14Speaker 08

  This belief in true independence as well. I I don't think we've ever talked about actually like needing one another.

• 51:21Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 51:22Speaker 08

  I mean, I don't think we even mentioned it in this conversation as well either.

• 51:27Esther Perel?

  No, you were talking about how you were trying to make clear to the other that you don't need them.

• 51:31Speaker 08

  Exactly, exactly.

• 51:32Esther Perel?

  What are the other taboos?

• 51:34Speaker 08

  I mean, there is like a, there is a power element to it as well. I don't wanna feel ever like less in power in relation to you, I think. Because it would create some sort of like submissive or needy. I I think I've, we've used that word a couple of times here.

• 51:53Esther Perel?

  Every time you talk about not wanting to be needy, you cross your arms.

• 51:56Speaker 08

  Oh, yeah.

• 52:00Speaker 07

  I, you know, I don't, I've never felt.

• 52:03Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 52:03Speaker 07

  I have more power, like I'm more powerful, or you know, anything like that. I don't want to.

• 52:08Speaker 08

  I I think there's actually, when you say that, I think there's actually a part of me that values achievement and and growth and impact more so than um the relational component. And I wonder if he's actually right, like this is how you.

• 52:24Esther Perel?

  This is how you do it.

• 52:25Speaker 08

  Must be in order to achieve.

• 52:27Esther Perel?

  You know, my friend and colleague Terry Real, he says, under patriarchy, men can either feel powerful or connected.

• 52:39Esther Perel?

  But they can't necessarily have both at the same time.

• 52:43Speaker 08

  That is exactly how I feel.

• 52:49Speaker 07

  And I I feel like I'm on the flip side, you know, wanting the exact, it's like yin and yang a little bit.

• 52:57Esther Perel?

  Cultural systems change. You more than anybody know this. You represent cultures in transition inside of you.

• 53:10Esther Perel?

  So can you do it vis a vis these norms, these supposed contradictions of either or, either powerful or connected?

• 53:20Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 53:20Esther Perel?

  And so now it becomes the powerful and the connected. He's the powerful, you're the connected.

• 53:25Speaker 08

  Right, which is a wild.

• 53:27Esther Perel?

  And you grapple with the part of you that wants what you call achievement power, but it comes at the price of disconnect, which is what you've emphasized. It's efficient, I've succeeded, I don't need anybody. Let me give you the list of everything I can do for which I don't need other people, but he then becomes the part of you that is disavowed.

• 53:45Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 53:46Esther Perel?

  And part of the distance that I think has been created between the two of you is because each one has become a representation of the part of you that you struggle with.

• 53:56Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 53:58Speaker 08

  Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. That's very real.

• 54:02Esther Perel?

  Do your fathers have best friends?

• 54:05Speaker 08

  My father's best friend broke his heart. That is the story. They were business partners. And then my father, who was much more of a relate, he is a prominent community organizer and has helped hundreds of Bangladeshi migrants come to the States. And basically, they were, but my dad tells me this story. It's like we were best friends in the village growing up from preschool. He married his sister. Like my, my father's best friend married his sister, his, his favorite sister. And they were in business together. And basically, his friend was more driven and just cut him off in the business. And my father told me then, friends are only this. It's family that's the most important.

• 54:49Speaker 08

  Your friends are great, but you, you never know when they might stab you. And I think that's what creates this protective response in me because my father is incredibly protective and incredibly, and carries a lot of sorrow from relationships that he feels like he overinvested in. And then people didn't reciprocate in return. Because he's so community organizing and, and, and he feels like he did not achieve his dreams because he spent so much time trying to help and connect with others.

• 55:19Esther Perel?

  Thinking of others.

• 55:20Speaker 07

  Wow.

• 55:21Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 55:21Esther Perel?

  But of course, I can't not think that the same dance is happening right here, right?

• 55:27Speaker 08

  Hmm.

• 55:28Esther Perel?

  How often do you see each other?

• 55:30Speaker 08

  It's been a long time.

• 55:31Speaker 07

  Nowadays, like a couple of times a year, maybe.

• 55:33Esther Perel?

  Right. So, what some people do is to have rituals. Every two months, we take a weekend of what what are the kind of things you enjoy doing when you're?

• 55:45Speaker 08

  So many.

• 55:45Speaker 07

  Everything.

• 55:46Speaker 08

  Yeah, yeah.

• 55:47Esther Perel?

  I will give you a few.

• 55:48Speaker 08

  Yeah, we could go to some basketball games together.

• 55:51Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 55:51Speaker 08

  Um, we could go hiking together, I'm sure.

• 55:53Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 55:54Speaker 08

  Film something together one day would be really cool, like uh trying to like make a small movie.

• 55:58Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 55:59Speaker 08

  When we're both.

• 55:59Esther Perel?

  So why don't you say, we have a ritual, we meet every eight weeks?

• 56:05Speaker 08

  Let's do it, man.

• 56:06Speaker 07

  Yeah, be down for that.

• 56:07Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 56:07Esther Perel?

  You know, we spend a weekend together or a long weekend together, one time here, one time at my place, one time it's it's to something else. And have it be the ritual you never broke.

• 56:18Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 56:20Esther Perel?

  So that even when you have families, one day if you do, or partners, you just say this. And it may not be two months at that time, but there is a pillar, there's a thing. And then one day you'll say for the past thirty years.

• 56:36Speaker 08

  Wow.

• 56:37Esther Perel?

  Every X.

• 56:39Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 56:40Esther Perel?

  That thing is an immovable.

• 56:42Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 56:44Esther Perel?

  It's an ode to us.

• 56:46Speaker 08

  Wow.

• 56:48Speaker 07

  I think it would be nice for each of us to make like a commitment like that to each other.

• 56:52Speaker 08

  For sure.

• 56:53Speaker 07

  Yeah. This doesn't scare me at all, this is exciting.

• 56:56Speaker 08

  Let's do it, let's do it.

• 56:57Speaker 07

  That, on the meta level, it's exciting that I'm even experiencing something like that.

• 57:01Esther Perel?

  This is not a long term commitment, this is a reliable gift.

• 57:05Speaker 08

  Hmm.

• 57:06Speaker 07

  Ooh.

• 57:06Speaker 08

  A reliable gift.

• 57:08Speaker 07

  A reliable gift, I like that.

• 57:10Esther Perel?

  Friendship, my reliable gift.

• 57:20Esther Perel?

  Something happened in their friendship that expressed an internal conflict that became a relational conflict. So that each of them became the representation of the part that the other one was struggling with and felt ambivalent about. One struggled with the side of him that wanted to maintain connections at the price of experiencing a compromise of the self. And the other experienced the price of maintaining his pursuits and his focus and on his own individual compass at the price of losing his connection to the people that mattered to him.

• 58:03Esther Perel?

  And they were each hurt by that. "Am I not important enough for you when you keep climbing and doing your own individual stuff?" said one. And the other, "Am I not important to you when you have so many other important people in your life?" And they were hurt. And they felt neglected by the other. And they needed to reconnect. And now, let's see if they will actually take on some of these rituals.

• 58:37Speaker 00

  This episode of Where Should We Begin? was done in collaboration with our friends at NPR and Invisibilia. To hear more from their season on friendship and to hear Astaire talk about the nature of friendships, just go to npr.org or look for Invisibilia wherever you get your podcasts.

• 59:07Speaker 00

  You just heard a classic session of Where Should We Begin? with Astaire Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on each episode, or to sign up for Astaire's monthly newsletter, go to astaireperel.com. Astaire Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity: In the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin? For details, go to her website, astaireperel.com.

• 59:44Speaker 02

  I'm Josh Muccio, host of The Pitch, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. For our sweet season 16, we're giving you more of what you love and less of what you don't.

• 59:56Speaker 09

  I definitely start to blank out when we're talking about like middleware AI wrappers.

• 1:00:01Speaker 02

  Software is out. Actual cool stuff is in. We've got consumer brands. We're building Eight Sleep for daytime. Hardware that helps blind people see.

• 1:00:11Speaker 10

  They kept asking for middle finger. Next thing we knew, we had like 10 students running around flipping each other off.

• 1:00:16Speaker 02

  We've got deep tech to change the weather.

• 1:00:18Speaker 03

  Our big vision is to make it rain and snow on demand.

• 1:00:22Speaker 11

  What if you wanted to not make it rain somewhere else? Like one day, we're just like, screw Arizona.

• 1:00:29Speaker 02

  And dairy?

• 1:00:31Speaker 04

  I never imagined my life journey would be milk.

• 1:00:33Speaker 02

  Season 16 of The Pitch is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:00:39Speaker 02

  This season is presented by Engine.

• 1:00:43Speaker 12

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