I Fell For My Best Friend

He fell in love with his best friend. But when his best friend reconnected with an ex, it was too much to bear and he had to end the friendship. He wonders how to let himself fall in love again and move into the next chapter of his life. Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [email protected]. Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hello Esther. My question is centered on a previous friendship of mine with a best friend who is no longer in my life. I fell in love with my best friend who shared unrequited feelings for me and our friendship became so intimate that it got to a point where it hurt too much to just be friends with him. So I told him we needed to take an undetermined amount of time apart from seeing each other. My question for you is twofold. How do I navigate this heartbreak and confusion for someone who truly felt like home to me and experienced a transcendent love with? And secondly, how can I learn to let go and open myself up to new potential romantic

• 0:45Speaker 00

  partners? I really struggle with comparing potential partners to him.

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• 1:32Speaker 02

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  I never imagined my life journey would be milk.

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• 2:22Esther Perel?

  I was listening to you and I thought, I'm hearing this for the first time. But you're hearing yourself again.

• 2:31Esther Perel?

  What's it like?

• 2:34Speaker 00

  I think one thing that might have shifted a little bit is maybe not necessarily navigating the heartbreak, but just the confusion for how can I feel this way where someone feels like home to me? And no moments with him can feel like touching the heavens. How can this be unrequited? But then, most importantly too, I've been trying to go dating and no one measures up. And I know what love should feel like and I don't want a watered down version of it.

• 3:10Esther Perel?

  I hear two questions. One is, tell me if I hear you well.

• 3:16Esther Perel?

  If I felt that we were touching the heavens together, how can it be that he didn't feel it, right? Is that, is that, yeah? The second one is about how do I grieve the loss of my best friend?

• 3:34Esther Perel?

  And the third one is, how do I allow myself to fall in love again when I have the sense that I was so off? And that I thought we had a shared reality and it doesn't seem like we did. How would I trust myself now when I meet someone new?

• 3:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, that speaks, that speaks loud, that last perspective.

• 4:02Esther Perel?

  Tell me a little bit more what happened. Tell, give me actually, what's the story? What happened here? Who are you? What happened? Who was he? How long did this go on? You know, before we we tackle the difficult questions. Give me a little bit of the the history of this relationship, this friendship. This falling in love with him, I don't know when, how, you know, the whole thing.

• 4:31Speaker 00

  So about three years ago, we matched on a dating app. And we decided to meet up on a date, went cross-country skiing. And it was just this immediate connection and effortless connection for me. Um, and I know I wanted to explore what was there. And when I had shared wanting to go on a second date, um, he was not interested. But we did agree to keep hanging out as friends. And so for a couple of years, I would do this really challenging choreography of straddling between friendship and

• 5:15Speaker 00

  keeping those feelings at bay. They only got stronger with time and I don't want to say it was an unusual friendship because that's just my cultural understanding of it, of how I was born and raised, but we did spend.

• 5:30Esther Perel?

  What do you mean by that?

• 5:31Speaker 00

  Most weekends, we'd be with each other. We'd speak throughout the week. I would be involved in both the small and big moments with him. And it was reciprocated and some of his friends have joked that we're codependent on each other. Not in a negative way, but just that we spend a lot of time with each other for people that are not dating.

• 5:55Esther Perel?

  And what did you mean when you talked about that it was different from your cultural understanding?

• 6:00Speaker 00

  I think we all have ideas of what is and isn't a normal friendship. So how I see friendship is like, you know, I hang out with that person. We spend time with each other, but it's not like a consistent every day interaction where with this friendship it was. So for me, um, to be so involved in someone else's life on that everyday level was is not something I have with other friendships, if that makes sense.

• 6:30Esther Perel?

  Uh huh. And you both called each other best friends?

• 6:34Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 6:37Esther Perel?

  So part of the understanding is friendship. I don't know where one finds the accurate measurement of how many times a week people need to meet. That is called friendship versus that is called a platonic relationship versus that is called a codependent relationship. Why pathologize this and to begin with? But what was clear is that in his mind, you were a very close friend and for you, you were wanting it to be a very close friend, but you knew all along that from the first date, you were hoping that he would change his mind and that he would realize that you

• 7:19Esther Perel?

  share something so special together and that he too would begin to call this romantic love and not just friendship.

• 7:29Speaker 00

  Possibly that could be in the background, but I felt like I always knew we were just going to be friends. And part of the reason that I told him we needed to take a pause was at one point in our friendship, he had shared that he still had feelings for an ex and myself and my friend had encouraged him to reach back out and see what could still be there. He felt so certain about this past relationship he was in and they did and they got back together. And that was really painful for me, but also I want the best for him. And so I think I always knew we were just friends, which is why I would have done an

• 8:11Speaker 00

  action like that, propose that he reach back out to his ex. And ever since they got back together, I just, it was painful, but I, I knew intuitively we couldn't be friends anymore. So as long as you're with someone else, it hurts too much to just be friends with you with how our relationship is right now.

• 8:34Esther Perel?

  And he said?

• 8:36Speaker 00

  When I had that conversation with him, um.

• 8:41Speaker 00

  I shared that I had feelings that have never gone away since we first met. And of course, there was some pause when I said that. I I didn't know how he would respond. And his first question was, had I spoken with my friends about it already? Like, does it feel like the right decision? Um, but then too, he said, how can I help out in this situation? What can I do? Uh, which those responses, you know, let me know. Always friendship, nothing more. But he cares for me and and holds me in high regard and wants to help out where he can. But I told him really just the separation, the time apart,

• 9:23Speaker 00

  and just a pause so I can figure out, can we make this friendship work? That was about half a year ago. And we haven't spoken since. Other than that, I did tell him, you know, God forbid, anything bad happens in each other's lives. I don't want us to not share any of those updates. I still want to be there for him. So I did reach out when a family emergency happened. But other than that, we haven't spoken since. And I don't anticipate I probably will ever will reach out to him again. Because I can't imagine just friendship with them without it hurting. If that makes sense.

• 10:07Esther Perel?

  And you helped him reconnect with this ex? As if if I introduce him to someone else, then I won't be so rejected by him? Because I will have been the one to send him out?

• 10:25Speaker 00

  Possibly.

• 10:27Esther Perel?

  You're shaking your head.

• 10:28Speaker 00

  I haven't thought about that.

• 10:31Speaker 00

  Did I unknowingly do that? Yeah, perhaps. Perhaps.

• 10:38Esther Perel?

  I can't tolerate you being so close to me and not with me. That I'm going to send you off to be with someone else. But I will have been the one to create the distance and not you.

• 10:53Speaker 00

  That could be, well, what happened, I um. At one point in our friendship, he had started seeing someone and that was huge heartache, heartbreak for me. That was him finding that person on their own. It didn't go anywhere after a while, but maybe, maybe that's what I did when I reconnected him with his ex, maybe.

• 11:22Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 11:23Esther Perel?

  What, what does that bring up for you, as you say? Maybe, and as you blow the air out and as you shake your head.

• 11:33Speaker 00

  I'm feeling that maybe intuitively I knew something had to change. And by maybe by me taking that action, things would shift in a way. Unknowingly not knowing how it would. But I can tell you it hurts less now, even the separation than being with him. So maybe

• 11:55Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 11:56Speaker 00

  I did that action for myself at the end of the day.

• 11:59Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm, mm hmm.

• 12:02Esther Perel?

  It gave you clarity. It helped you

• 12:08Esther Perel?

  create a closure.

• 12:10Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 12:11Esther Perel?

  Or at least a comma, a comma in the sentence or a semicolon, maybe.

• 12:18Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 12:19Esther Perel?

  Um, it helped you punctuate the relationship. And as you say, once he said, how can I help you? You understood that

• 12:30Esther Perel?

  you are not in the same place. You don't share the same feelings. You deeply care for each other, both of you. But at this moment, you need to create a place and a space where you can fall in love with someone else if you so choose.

• 12:48Speaker 00

  Um hum. Thinking about you saying the pause or the comma, maybe not necessarily complete resolution, but that was the period. Yeah, I, that was one thing that I wish I would have pushed in that conversation, which felt impossible in the moment to have. I, I just wish I could have, I could hear what was going on in his head. And not that I deserved that and not that I, maybe that wouldn't have made a difference, but there's still, I don't know, part of me feels like if I could have heard an honest, candid response as to every, like what he was feeling and thinking, that would have helped me a little bit more. As opposed to just saying, how can I help out? Have you thought about this through?

• 13:34Speaker 00

  What are the boundaries when we take this pause? Um, part of me wishes I would have asked for him to share. Not that he would have had any formulated thoughts, because I know I definitely took him off guard one hundred percent with that conversation. Um hum.

• 13:53Esther Perel?

  Which part of it? The fact that you had feelings for him all along that you had not been able to reveal? Or that you knew that once you would reveal them, there was a chance that he may not reciprocate? Or that you were going to cut off after that to protect yourself?

• 14:14Speaker 00

  I think a little bit of a couple of the scenarios you gave, I think there definitely was ever since we went on that first date. I never once ever again expressed interest. I knew it was always just gonna be friendship.

• 14:28Esther Perel?

  Um hum.

• 14:28Speaker 00

  Um, and I did my best to the friend zone myself in many ways. Um.

• 14:34Esther Perel?

  How did you do it?

• 14:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think just talking about my dating life. In my mind, if I'm talking about my dating life, that's gonna make him feel more like a friend, because he talks about that with someone that you care about.

• 14:46Esther Perel?

  Clever.

• 14:49Speaker 00

  That was one thing.

• 14:50Esther Perel?

  Did he too?

• 14:52Speaker 00

  Yes, yes, it went both ways. And there would be times where I thought, yep, I was successful in friend zoning myself. I only see him as a friend. And then there could just be a sudden sudden change where they just came back and made me realize it was um. Feelings are probably never going to completely go away. They'll still be there in the background. Um.

• 15:18Speaker 00

  And then to your question too, I think, I think he was also caught off guard of just completely like the excommunication, like we're not. We're not gonna see each other. And I know that was difficult for him because we both considered each other best friends. We spent so much. Of our time with each other. Um. So that was changing his world upside down too.

• 15:42Esther Perel?

  I was wondering, because you mentioned your friends and how they viewed your relationship with him. Where are your friends in this story?

• 15:53Speaker 00

  My friends have been cautious of the friendship. From day one, when I met this friend on a date, I immediately had to call several friends. I said, you'll never guess. What my day has turned into. I'm feeling over the moon, like I didn't know I could. Meet someone like this and but once I told them that we were just gonna be friends, I think they all had reservations, like if you feel this strongly, is that. A good idea. But I had shared that I would just treat it as a friendship. But they definitely.

• 16:29Esther Perel?

  They know you well?

• 16:30Speaker 00

  They know me very well.

• 16:32Esther Perel?

  Have they known you to be someone who gets hurt by love?

• 16:38Speaker 00

  It's hard to answer that. I didn't come out till later in my adult life, in my early twenties, and so I. And to this day, haven't been in a long term relationship. So I don't think they've ever seen me hurt by love from antiquity, if that's the question.

• 16:54Esther Perel?

  Are you out to to the world or just?

• 16:57Speaker 00

  I am. Yep, I'm out to family, friends, out. One hundred percent open, yeah.

• 17:05Esther Perel?

  Had you been in other long term relationships before, or other relationships before?

• 17:11Speaker 00

  Short term, nothing exclusive. I always seem to find a reason to pull away. Uh, with the limited people that I have expressed interest in. And I think that's just part of that might just be by not having that regular dating life from a young age. I place a lot of seriousness now as an adult into dating someone.

• 17:42Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break. So stay with us and let's see where this goes.

• 17:57Speaker 02

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• 18:46Speaker 02

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• 19:54Esther Perel?

  Is there anything I should know about your experience of coming out?

• 20:00Speaker 00

  So, for me, growing up, I grew up in a small conservative area with a parent that worked for the church. And just with the teachings that my church has, lots of internalized shame from being gay, from being queer. And unfortunately for me, that manifested, that internalized shame into social anxiety. So, opening up to others had, at that time, been really, really difficult for me. But fortunately, during COVID, I made the decision to start therapy, which really reorganized my whole life

• 20:42Speaker 00

  and where social anxiety is not a factor that inhibits me from living a life aligned with my values. But I'm not sure what else I could say that might be helpful for the context of my story coming out. Supportive friends, family. Some family doesn't. Still believes being queer is sinful, but they still love me and are still in my life.

• 21:17Esther Perel?

  What's the, I can imagine what you're laughing at and about, but I wanna make sure that we're laughing about the same thing, so, or smiling about the same thing, which is it for you? They still love me, but as long as?

• 21:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm laughing at the same thing as you. Just how can, love shouldn't be conditional on certain, certain items.

• 21:44Esther Perel?

  So when I listen to you, what I'm wondering is, well, actually, maybe I ask you first. Tell me a little bit more about the social anxiety. Because what I'm understanding is that when you met him, you experienced with him a kind of closeness and a sharing of the everyday that in effect you had never experienced before.

• 22:11Speaker 00

  Yes, it's true. We met prior to me starting therapy and he was with me during a lot of pivotal moments of my life with radical self-love and self-compassion and really letting go of internalized shame in many ways. He was there as a support system in many of those things. We also, we had done a book club on Gifts of Imperfection by Brené Brown, where he got to really see the landscape of what my social anxiety looked like and how it affected my life. He has been the deepest, most profound friendship I've ever had.

• 22:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, he's been that person that I haven't been open with other people in the same way.

• 23:03Esther Perel?

  And what allowed you to do it? Because you see, sometimes we are tempted to think I could do all of this because of who he was.

• 23:12Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:13Esther Perel?

  But sometimes we begin to realize that I could do all of this because of who I was becoming.

• 23:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's the word becoming. I think it was so easy to. I mean, I'm sure I definitely tested the waters first with what I was gonna share early on in our friendship. But no matter what I would share, it never made him walk away or see me differently or. Um, he still cared and loved me despite all those challenges that I had, so I'm. Sure with time, when I started to reveal and open myself up more, I was never met with. Someone walking away or viewing me differently or not wanting to have that relationship with me anymore.

• 24:01Esther Perel?

  What did you just thought, think about? Something just came into you.

• 24:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm still thinking about the word becoming with him. I, I like to say. That he inspired me to be the best version of myself. And so when I hear the word becoming, like, he's part of the reason of who I am and where I've gotten to today.

• 24:27Esther Perel?

  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And that is one beautiful way that he lives inside of you.

• 24:36Esther Perel?

  One of those witnesses that you met along the way in your life. Who saw you coming out and who saw you becoming more bold, more assertive, more authentic, more forthcoming. More honest with yourself, with others.

• 25:00Esther Perel?

  More radically compassionate, if you want. Um, but he watched you or he accompanied you in this mega transition in your life.

• 25:14Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 25:15Esther Perel?

  He and the other friends. But he was the one who was on the other side of the conservative community, the church, maybe your parents. Or these other family members. And so he became the welcoming, accepting family. That you so beautifully called in the beginning of our conversation, my home.

• 25:41Speaker 00

  That's been one thing that I find that's been helpful. Cause when we first stopped seeing each other, that's all I could think about was him and him not being in my life. And in attempts to make it not hurt as bad, I would just say things that I was thankful for, that he brought into my life, or things that he changed about me, or experiences that we had. And that's been helpful. So just to hear you say all of that list of things that he's accompanied me with, it's been something that's been helpful for me to say that out loud.

• 26:13Esther Perel?

  Uh huh, uh huh. He is in your life. He's not physically present at this moment. And you kind of know that when you are ready to reengage, he will be there.

• 26:28Speaker 00

  Uh huh, yes.

• 26:32Esther Perel?

  So he is a part of you and he's a part of your life, but he's not actively involved. Because now, from what I understand, now you want to learn how you can experience this with other people. See, sometimes when you experience something for the first time with someone, you attribute it all to them.

• 26:54Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 26:56Esther Perel?

  They're the ones who opened me up. They're the ones who gave me the sense of acceptance. They're the ones who allowed me to become kinder with myself. They're the ones who loosened me up. They're the ones who allowed me to be funny. You know, they, they, they. And rather than they and me. It's not just them and it's not just you, but it's certainly you in a big, in big part. And so now it's, can I experience this with others? And for that, you have to imagine that it wasn't just him. Cause if it's all him, then it disappears when you don't see him. If it's also inside of you, then it's there when you meet others. And you won't be crippled by comparison.

• 27:38Speaker 00

  This is really important for me to hear.

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• 29:31Esther Perel?

  Say it in your own words.

• 29:34Speaker 00

  Let's see.

• 29:37Speaker 00

  I can open myself up to others and to new romantic partners when I know that the love that I felt with this friend, while he shared a lot of moments with me and helped me grow, he was the first person in my life to let me encounter that and that I can experience that again.

• 29:59Esther Perel?

  Hold on a second.

• 30:02Esther Perel?

  He was not the first person who let me encounter that. He was the first person with whom I chose to encounter that.

• 30:14Speaker 00

  First person I chose. It's true.

• 30:19Speaker 00

  Love is a choice. I'm having lots of.

• 30:26Speaker 00

  Lots of ideas flying in my head, so trying to articulate myself to your responses. Proving to be difficult. You're giving me a lot to sit on, Esther.

• 30:41Speaker 00

  This friend was the first person that I chose to open myself up to. And I can experience that again when I choose to let that happen again and allow that to happen. And that what I felt with him wasn't a singular experience. Based off him, it was also based off me being choosing. To let myself be deeply seen and understood.

• 31:08Esther Perel?

  Yeah, take a deep breath.

• 31:11Esther Perel?

  Take it in.

• 31:14Speaker 00

  I'm thinking right now with dates that I have gone and after. I feel like I'm trying to be open, but maybe I'm not. And what does that look like to be, to choosing to be open to others? If I'm not doing it right now.

• 31:32Esther Perel?

  So, imagine, how do you date?

• 31:36Speaker 00

  My dates, I choose to do experiences.

• 31:40Esther Perel?

  Uh huh. How do you meet them?

• 31:43Speaker 00

  Unfortunately, always through dating apps. Which I don't want to do, but that's just how it is with the queer community. It's difficult to meet people in the wild.

• 31:53Speaker 00

  I have started trying to meet more queer people organically. Uh, we have a queer volunteer group where I live, so I have been going to that to try to meet people. Uh, but that's how, that's what it's looked like most recently, meeting people. Romantically, I've been through dating apps. And I choose to go on experiences with them. Um, I'm not a fan of just going to get drinks. And just talking, uh, not that it's bad, but it, I don't feel like I see another person through that experience.

• 32:29Esther Perel?

  I agree. So, give me one.

• 32:33Speaker 00

  One that I've done in the past?

• 32:35Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 32:36Speaker 00

  Okay. We went to an educational farm. And we worked on making coasters out of sheep fiber, sheep wool. And it was so much fun getting to connect with that person over an activity, getting to see his personality shan through. Unfortunately, he didn't want to keep seeing each other, but um that was, that was one.

• 33:02Esther Perel?

  Uh huh. But that one is not one where you're asking yourself, did I hold back?

• 33:08Speaker 00

  No, I didn't feel like I held back. I felt like I was open. Dating has always been really hard for me. It always feels really difficult to find matches in the first place. And if I do want to go on dates, it can be unrequited. So I definitely, I feel like it's really dry here in terms of dating. It's it's difficult. But I feel like in the past experiences, I have been opening myself up.

• 33:35Esther Perel?

  Uh huh.

• 33:35Speaker 00

  Choosing to open myself up to others, letting them see me.

• 33:39Esther Perel?

  Beautiful. Do your friends introduce each other?

• 33:44Speaker 00

  Um, I have had a friend introduce me to someone to go on a date with. But it doesn't happen frequently. That was probably the only time that I've been set up with a friend. Otherwise, no. But I would love that scenario. I would like to for them to create that algorithm instead of the dating app.

• 34:05Esther Perel?

  You can imagine that two or three of you come together and each one brings four or five people.

• 34:13Speaker 00

  Hmm. I'm gonna propose this to my friend group.

• 34:17Esther Perel?

  You turn it into a potluck or in whatever, barbecue, whatever. But imagine three people come together, each one brings four people they like. At best.

• 34:30Esther Perel?

  You make new friends. And at better, you find someone you wanna see again.

• 34:37Speaker 00

  I really like this idea.

• 34:40Esther Perel?

  There's a way to amplify on the app. Yep, that's what the app does, but there's lots of other ways we can create our own, you know, man-made little algorithm to amplify, to create the ripple effect, to have more people. And everyone probably has three, four people among the people you see that they like and that they say. Each one brings a few people we like and we know would connect with the others. And we create a bigger circle. Can be all queer, yeah. Can be all queer, can be mixed, huh? But, but there is a way to actually bring people who are not living close by these days.

• 35:22Esther Perel?

  Everybody's talking about how isolated or too isolated we are, about how we could have more friends, about how difficult it is sometimes to have friendship between men. But on the other hand, how queer men actually often have more friends, actually, than straight men do with each other. How we help people, meet new people. If you work remote and if you don't go on the street and you don't go to supermarket by yourself and you don't go to work in person. And where's supposed, where exactly are we supposed to meet? So you create an event. Doesn't just have to be a two-hour dinner, could be an overnight.

• 36:06Esther Perel?

  But basically, people can drive in from a distance. It doesn't just have to be who's in the hood.

• 36:11Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm, I agree.

• 36:14Esther Perel?

  And when you do it, it gives you energy. It's the opposite of social anxiety, by the way.

• 36:23Esther Perel?

  And so far, from looking at you, from the moment I threw that idea, I've seen joy and anticipation and imagination. I haven't seen much anxiety at the idea. Am I picking that up correctly?

• 36:37Speaker 00

  You're correct. I'm excited about the idea.

• 36:39Esther Perel?

  Great.

• 36:40Speaker 00

  Not anxious, which is good for me.

• 36:44Esther Perel?

  We don't even have to think about it, but I didn't see any. I see, you like it. You're beginning, your wheels are spinning, you're thinking, who, when, where, what, how? And it's fun.

• 36:57Speaker 00

  I've been thinking things have had to change with dating. Like, why do I keep expecting a different outcome when I keep doing the same thing? So this is, I have to do this, yes. Thank you for the idea. This will be good, something new.

• 37:14Esther Perel?

  Do you travel?

• 37:16Speaker 00

  I, I do, yes.

• 37:19Esther Perel?

  And when you travel, do you reach out to people in the queer community?

• 37:24Speaker 00

  I don't. I don't.

• 37:28Esther Perel?

  As they say in my language, pourquoi pas? Why not?

• 37:31Speaker 00

  I know. You're right. I know.

• 37:36Esther Perel?

  There are volunteer organizations everywhere, queer organizations. There are groups of all sorts, reach out before you travel and just say, I'm coming to town. Anyone would like to meet.

• 37:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, I really like this idea. When I do travel, that's, that's always a big part of travel for me, is the connections and then meeting the people. I, um,

• 38:04Esther Perel?

  Of course.

• 38:05Speaker 00

  Two years ago, I walked the Camino de Santiago in Spain, and that's just about community and people. But I've never considered prioritizing prior to a trip, like finding those avenues and meeting other queer people. So I will, I will remember that because connection is a huge part of travel for me.

• 38:24Esther Perel?

  So this is just a little bit more deliberate.

• 38:29Esther Perel?

  I mean, it's a combination between the happenstance, the serendipity, and then the more deliberate. The more deliberate is who are the queer communities? In the places where I go, what are they doing? How do I join them? Among people who have often not found.

• 38:47Esther Perel?

  A home or a community, there is often more likelihood that they will welcome the traveler.

• 38:55Speaker 00

  Yes, you're giving me so much to think about right now, Esther. I'm much more introverted, so I have to like, when I hear these new ideas, I I always don't have an an immediate response. But please know that I am I am hearing you. Yes.

• 39:11Esther Perel?

  Good.

• 39:13Esther Perel?

  So. It's okay. Take it in.

• 39:18Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 39:18Esther Perel?

  Do it your way, do it the introverted way, the slow way, the whichever way that is yours. And then let me know what you do.

• 39:28Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 39:29Esther Perel?

  So I'll let you sit with this and we'll recap, you know.

• 39:34Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 39:35Esther Perel?

  What are some of the main things you take with you from this conversation?

• 39:40Speaker 00

  First is going to be recognizing that while this friend was very is important to me. That experience of transcendence wasn't one hundred percent based on him. It was me choosing to open up to someone else, which I have never done before in that way. So if I want to.

• 40:03Speaker 00

  Come across love again like that, it's gonna be dependent on me being open, choosing to be open to others.

• 40:11Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm. Yep.

• 40:12Speaker 00

  When it comes to connecting, being deliberate to meet people outside of dating apps, I can create that space. Yeah, I I will have more thoughts, I'm sure after I think about it more, Esther. But those are some immediate, immediate thoughts that are coming to my mind.

• 40:33Esther Perel?

  I see. That you have a guitar behind you.

• 40:39Speaker 00

  I do, yes, I do.

• 40:42Esther Perel?

  Do you compose songs as well?

• 40:47Speaker 00

  I do, yep. That was actually when I first met this friend. I made this love ballad. So I do like to put my experience and feelings into music. I like to do that alchemy, transform.

• 41:05Esther Perel?

  May I suggest that you, as part of the transition, that you're in, that you compose a song for the next phase?

• 41:20Esther Perel?

  For where you're going.

• 41:23Speaker 00

  For where I'm going.

• 41:23Esther Perel?

  For what you're taking with you and what you're leaving behind.

• 41:29Esther Perel?

  And that you have fun doing it.

• 41:31Speaker 00

  Yes, that's an incredible idea. I've kind of abandoned music a little bit recently, so this is gonna be. Yeah, I'm gonna do this.

• 41:43Esther Perel?

  Music is an important part of your life, and music should accompany you into the next chapter of your life.

• 41:52Speaker 00

  Every time I hear you say something, Esther, I just need the pause to take it in. Yes, that's, yes, I will do this.

• 42:01Esther Perel?

  You're welcome, and we'll be in touch. Thank you so much.

• 42:05Speaker 00

  Thank you, Esther.

• 42:15Speaker 10

  This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call, recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, that could be answered in a forty or fifty-minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to [email protected].

• 42:36Speaker 10

  Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julianne Hahn. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

• 43:14Speaker 02

  I'm Josh Muccio, host of The Pitch, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. For our sweet season 16, we're giving you more of what you love and less of what you don't.

• 43:25Speaker 06

  I definitely start to blank out when we're talking about like middleware AI wrappers.

• 43:30Speaker 02

  Software is out. Actual cool stuff is in. We've got consumer brands. We're building Eight Sleep for daytime. Hardware that helps blind people see. They kept asking for middle finger. Next thing we knew, we had like 10 students running around flipping each other off. We've got deep tech to change the weather.

• 43:48Speaker 03

  Our big vision is to make it rain and snow on demand.

• 43:51Speaker 07

  What if you wanted to not make it rain somewhere else? Like one day, we're just like, screw Arizona.

• 43:59Speaker 02

  And dairy?

• 44:00Speaker 04

  I never imagined my life journey would be milk.

• 44:02Speaker 02

  Season 16 of The Pitch is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. This season is presented by Engine.

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