How To Make Your Relationships Exceptional | Carole Robin and David Bradford

Secrets from the massively popular Stanford business school course on interpersonal hygiene. Carole Robin and David Bradford taught the most popular elective course at the Stanford Graduate School of Business for a combined total of 75 years. Officially, the name of the course is Interpersonal Dynamics, but everybody calls it "Touchy-Feely." Together they have written the new book, Connect: Building Exceptional Relationships with Family, Friends, and Colleagues https://connectandrelate.com/. We dive into the six hallmarks of what they call "exceptional relationships," how to be honest and vulnerable without overdoing it, why the questions "how am I feeling?" and "how are you feeling?" are central to improving our communication, the inevitability of risk when you set out to deepen a relationship, and why meditation is helpful in all of this. This episode originally aired in 2021. Follow Dan on social: Instagram https://bit.ly/3tGigG5, TikTok https://bit.ly/3FOA84J Subscribe to our YouTube Channel https://bit.ly/3FybRzD Our favorite playlists on: Anxiety https://spoti.fi/3Qa8kMT, Sleep https://spoti.fi/3MjtMxF, Relationships https://spoti.fi/3QvyA5J, Most Popular Episodes https://spoti.fi/3QxZASc Additional Resources: Brené Brown https://brenebrown.com/ https://connectandrelate.com/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Dan Harris?

  It's the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris.

• 0:19Dan Harris?

  Hello, my fellow suffering beings. How we doing today? We talk a lot on this show about social connection. You might have heard me get on this soapbox before, but I just am continuously amazed by the fact that we are these intensely social animals. We come out of the womb helpless and howling, and we need other people in order to survive. And we survived as a species because of our ability to cooperate and communicate and collaborate. And yet, very few of us are actually taught interpersonal hygiene, social fitness. So that brings me to my guests today, who are going to get super granular, scientific even, about how to do relationships better at work and everywhere else. Carol Robin and David Bradford

• 1:02Dan Harris?

  teach the most popular elective course at the Stanford Graduate School of Business. Officially, the name of the course is Interpersonal Dynamics, but everybody there apparently calls it Touchy Feely. We cover a lot of fascinating ground here, including the six hallmarks of what they call "exceptional relationships." We talk about how to handle conflict well, how to be honest and vulnerable without overdoing it, why the questions "How am I feeling?" and "How are you feeling?" are central to improving communication, the inevitability of risk when you set out to deepen a relationship, how to connect across lines of difference, including race and gender, why it really is possible to have deep relationships with a broader range of people than you might have imagined, how to give and receive feedback, which is incredibly important,

• 1:45Dan Harris?

  navigating power dynamics, and why meditation is so helpful in all of this. Little background on these folks before we dive in. David is the Eugene D. O'Kelly, the second senior lecturer in leadership emeritus at the Stanford Graduate School of Business. Carol is the former Dorothy J. King lecturer in leadership at the Stanford Graduate School of Business. Together, they have written the book Connect: Building Exceptional Relationships with Family, Friends, and Colleagues. A quick note, this episode first ran back in 2021, but we felt it was worth bringing out of the archives. You will hear a couple of mentions to remote work during COVID because we were in the thick of it back then. Today, my team and I still work remotely, so their tips about good communication over Zoom still apply to many of us.

• 2:31Dan Harris?

  Hey, before we get started, I want to make sure that you know about all the good things we've got going on at danharis.com. That is my new-ish online community built in partnership with Substack, where paid subscribers get cheat sheets and transcripts for every podcast episode. Plus, I do regular live AMAs, that's Ask Me Anything sessions, where I take your questions and more. It's a lot of fun. You'll also get to meet virtually lots of other folks who take all of this stuff seriously. Go to danharis.com and check it out. Okay, David Bradford, Carol Robin, coming up right after this.

• 3:08Speaker 01

  75% of women who seek menopause care don't receive it. The lying awake at 3 a.m. wondering what's happening to your body ends now. Midi is virtual care built for women in perimenopause and menopause with clinicians who specialize in women's health. Plus, it's covered by most major insurances. Getting started is easy. You can book your first visit with a clinician right away. Midlife needs Midi. Visit joinmidi.com to book your first visit today. That's join M I D I dot com. Insurance coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage.

• 3:38Speaker 02

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 4:09Dan Harris?

  Carol Robin, David Bradford, welcome to the show.

• 4:13Speaker 03

  Good to be here.

• 4:14Speaker 04

  Thanks, Dan.

• 4:15Dan Harris?

  So Carol, I'll start with you. What is touchy feely?

• 4:22Speaker 04

  Well, it's the affectionate term used by students at the Stanford Graduate School of Business for a course that David and I were very involved in for many years called interpersonal dynamics. That's the name of the course. And the students affectionately call it touchy feely, partly because we place such an emphasis on the use of feelings in being more interpersonally competent and building relationships, which is what we've dedicated our lives to, helping people learn how to do and have now written a book about.

• 4:58Dan Harris?

  So David, the students affectionately call it touchy feely, sort of a mild mocking, and yet, as I understand it, it's a very popular course.

• 5:07Speaker 03

  Absolutely, yes. I'm not sure they're knocking it. I think it's sort of a more affectionate, as Carol was saying, identification. So they say to each other, are you taking touchy feely next term? And it's sort of a way to convey their interest and involvement.

• 5:23Dan Harris?

  Staying with you for a second, David, what's the point of the course?

• 5:27Speaker 03

  The point of the course is to help students develop the competencies to build more open, authentic relationships, not just with the other students in their section, in their group, but also afterwards. And one of the things we're excited about is not only the impact it has on students, but reports we hear from alumni of them using it decades later, on their job, in their marriage, with friends, and so on. So it's a course that has lasting power, and that's the excitement for us.

• 6:01Dan Harris?

  Yeah, I mean, I get excited when I hear you talk. And I would imagine the question that I'm about to ask is one you must field reasonably frequently, which is, why is this just being taught at Stanford Business School? This feels like this kind of interpersonal hygiene, or, you know, 101 of human interaction should be taught in every elementary school planet-wide. Carol, do you agree or disagree?

• 6:32Speaker 04

  First of all, could not agree with you more. Just like every child should be taught to meditate, in my opinion. And in fact, the way we got talked into writing the book was that our editor said, "How come the only people who get to learn this are those that are privileged and lucky enough to go to Stanford Graduate School of Business?" And we said, "Well, it's very hard stuff to learn in a book. You actually have to do it. You can't just read about it." And that's why it took us four years to write the book, so that we could do justice to the work. And I think that you're absolutely right, that our dream for the book is that the book

• 7:12Speaker 04

  creates momentum for this being taught in many, many, many more places and learned by many, many more people.

• 7:20Speaker 03

  And if I could add to that, it is taught in other schools. It's taught at Yale, UCLA, other places, but not as intensively as it is at Stanford. And one of the reasons why is that this requires special competencies in teaching it. It's not just knowing the conceptual material of interpersonal relations. You've got to do it yourself. And not many faculty have the sort of training in how to teach this that Carol and I and a few others have.

• 7:54Dan Harris?

  But that strikes me as a huge problem. I mean, just a quick anecdote here, I may have said this on the show before, so if I have, I apologize. But a couple of years ago, my wife and I went and did some couples counseling. Side note to the side note, I feel this compulsion to add, we weren't having some big marital difficulties, we were kind of doing it for hygiene reasons, there we go with that word again. But the side note to the side note is that I feel like the stink that couples counseling has on it needs to be totally ignored, because it's an incredibly useful thing to do for your relationship. And one of the things that our... Therapist said to us that has always stuck with me. His name is Michael Vincent Miller, by the way, which is brilliant guy. He said, "Nobody teaches us how to do relationships." And he was talking about romantic relationships.

• 8:39Dan Harris?

  He's absolutely right about that. Our teachers there are our parents, often deeply flawed humans. Well, all humans are. And the movies, which is, you know, don't get me started. There is a lot that happens after the you complete me stage of relationships. But he was not only right about romantic relationships. He's right about, "Nobody teaches us how to interact with the barista either." I mean, like, the whole range of human interactions. We're just making it up as we go. And often, I think, well, I'll speak from personal experience, often, in my case, not very well.

• 9:11Speaker 04

  Well, first of all, I want to connect a few things that you've just said, which is, "It's hard to teach if you don't model it." So we have to start by modeling what we believe creates connection. That begins with vulnerability and a willingness to allow ourselves to be known and seen, which, by the way, most faculty in most academic institutions of higher learning, especially if they're elite, is the very unlikely way that they're going to show up. So you just talked about how do we learn about relationships? We learn from watching. And for me personally, when I started in business, because I'm not a career academic,

• 9:56Speaker 04

  when I started in business, the first thing I learned was, whatever you do, leave your feelings at the door. There is no place in business for feelings. And then I discovered that it's pretty hard to motivate people and inspire people, and much less be seen as a human being in the absence of speaking about feelings.

• 10:16Speaker 04

  But I learned that the hard way, and it wasn't because it was modeled to me. So back to what David just said, you know, it takes investment, and even more than that, experimentation. A willingness to be curious about yourself and about others. That's why it has such great overlap with mindfulness. A willingness to think, "Well, I wonder if I tell you a little bit more about me, whether you'll be a little more open to telling me a little more about you?"

• 10:46Speaker 04

  And that might be the beginning, including with the barista. You know, I was at a Starbucks the other day and I said to the barista, so how are you today? And she said, fine. And I said, just fine? What's making it fine? I don't think anybody had even asked her something like that ever. And I said, you know, fine, it has a big gradient.

• 11:09Dan Harris?

  How'd that go down?

• 11:11Speaker 04

  It was great. She said, well, actually, I'm good. I said, oh, wonderful. So your fine was good. What's making your day good? Well, I got to come in late, which meant I got to see my daughter before I left today. And it was so much fun and we played and it was a great way to start the day. I was like, well, thank you for sharing that with me. And then she said, what about you? How's your day? It's not rocket science, but by the way, I said it's not rocket science once when I was doing a workshop for a bunch of people at NASA, but to the management team at NASA. And they said, oh, God, Carol, this is so much harder than rocket science.

• 11:49Dan Harris?

  I once saw a cartoon that was hanging in an edit room at a TV station in the newsroom, and it had two scientists talking to each other and they looked at each other and one turned to the other and said, I mean, it's not television news. But back to the barista, not everybody would like it if you gave them the third degree while you're ordering your latte or whatever it is you imbibe.

• 12:18Speaker 04

  That's true. And David, you might want to talk about, that's why we talk about two antenna. And we could call this interpersonal mindfulness, not just interpersonal dynamics. You want to talk about why we talk about two antenna, David?

• 12:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, is that every relationship is different. We don't teach a set way to do it. We teach a way on how you can find out what works for you and works for the other person. So the two antennae that Carol was referring to is one is being aware of yourself. What are my needs? What do I want? And then being aware of the other person, what's their reaction? So when Carol told that story, the barista responded, it sounds like, and Carol picked up the cue that she could go further. So she wasn't in a sense interrogating her. Now, my guess is, if knowing Carol and her confidences,

• 13:13Speaker 03

  if the barista would have said, "I'm fine, okay, now what do you want in your drink?" Carol would have dropped it. So we need to have both of those sensitivities. And you were saying before, this should, all of this should be taught. And that's what the course teaches. The course teaches students to be more aware of themselves, in touch with their feelings, knowing how to raise issues that are not attacking or accusatory or too imposing, and how to pick up cues from the other person. So that you can build the relationship you want with each person, and that'll, that'll be different with each person.

• 13:53Dan Harris?

  How do you teach this?

• 13:55Speaker 03

  Well, that's the exciting part about the course. So people say, "Well, what sort of exercises? What sort of cases do you use? What sort of simulations?" And the wonderful thing about this course is we don't have to do any of that. The students are in 12-person groups that meet over 10 weeks, and their job is to look at their interactions with each other and get feedback from their peers. And what we do is we build a vacuum. We don't give the agenda. There's not a leader. Their task is to build a learning group, which isn't a very useful assignment. And then they struggle.

• 14:38Speaker 03

  And one person initiates something, rams it down other people's throat. The other person has a reaction, gives them feedback, and we're off and running. So it's very much what we say here and now learning. Here's how I'm reacting to your behavior, right here in the present. And it's very powerful, it's very personal, and it's very affirming. Because as Carol was saying, as we show more of ourselves, it turns out that who we really are is usually much more attractive, influential than who we pretend to be.

• 15:17Dan Harris?

  Just to I'm clear on this. So you create these 12 person groups and you give them a task?

• 15:21Speaker 03

  Nope.

• 15:22Dan Harris?

  And then, okay.

• 15:23Speaker 04

  What we do is we tell them, we are deliberately not giving you a task other than to build a learning laboratory.

• 15:32Dan Harris?

  What does that even mean?

• 15:33Speaker 04

  Well, that's what, that's the first thing they say.

• 15:35Dan Harris?

  Okay.

• 15:36Speaker 04

  And we say, you each have some goals. They've all come into the class with, you know, my goal, every time I do one of these groups is to not suck all the oxygen out of the room and leave space for other people to talk. Someone else has a goal to initiate more and be more spontaneous. Isn't it great if we both find ourselves in the same group? Because I can't work on mine unless they work on theirs. So we drop them in, we give them no task, and there's silence. And the carols of the world are like, well, why don't we all go around and introduce each other? And the other people are like, well, who the heck appointed you leader? And then we're off to the races, as David said.

• 16:21Dan Harris?

  So you give them a deliberately opaque, ambiguous, non-project, non-task, and you let them hash it out?

• 16:29Speaker 03

  Right.

• 16:30Speaker 04

  That's exactly right.

• 16:31Speaker 03

  You see, what it is, every group needs to have leadership functions fulfilled, needs to have an agenda, and needs to have rules of procedures. We take those all away. We create a vacuum. And as nature abhors a vacuum, so do human beings. And then what comes out is what Carol just described. And that is real behavior. If we had a simulation, they'd be playing a role. Now they're coming in as themselves. And that's what's so real and so powerful about it.

• 17:03Speaker 04

  And let's take that example just a little further, Dan, just to be clear. So I suggest let's go around. There's a few people who don't say anything, but they don't like the idea. But they don't say anything. And then people start introducing each other and about four or five people later, you can't even remember what the first person said and you're bored. Now you've got a choice. You have a choice to recognize, become aware that you're bored or irritated or whatever. And then you can decide to experiment with saying something. Gee, you know, I'm afraid to say this because I don't know how you're all going to feel about me, but I'm kind of bored. And then four other people say, wow, thank you so much for saying that.

• 17:45Speaker 04

  And it's all real time dynamics and we're all getting to know each other very well, very quickly, the real us.

• 17:53Dan Harris?

  But is there coaching or some sort of pedagogy that leads into this so that people understand how to do vulnerability correctly? And we'll talk about that. Or how to develop these two and ten I that we all have, but might not be aware of?

• 18:10Speaker 03

  Well, there's a facilitator in each group.

• 18:12Dan Harris?

  Okay.

• 18:13Speaker 03

  But the facilitator doesn't teach them, but asks questions. So I'm going to carry on the scenario that Carol started to build. So somebody comes in and says, well, I'm getting bored with this. And the person who initiates it says, well, if you've got a better idea, what the hell is it? And the person who interrupted said, what's the rule around here that I have to have a better idea? You see, they're involved. The facilitator is likely to say to the first person, how are you feeling? Well, I'm feeling that I tried. Well, that's not a feeling. What are you feeling? I'm feeling annoyed that I got corrected. And the other person who interrupted said,

• 18:58Speaker 03

  "Well, I'm feeling annoyed that you did this without checking with us." So they are learning that sharing their feelings, which is why the course is called Touchy Feeling by the students. They start to learn that's how we can communicate. That's how we can know each other, what we want and what we don't want. So they learn from their experience. So when Carol said the assignment is to build a laboratory learning, and you were appropriately puzzled, this is the laboratory where they are discovering what sort of interaction works and what sort doesn't work. They learn from their experience. And you see what's powerful about that

• 19:41Speaker 03

  is that they can take that competency out of the group in later years. We have experiences all the time. Rarely do we learn from them. But our students learn how to learn from all the experiences they have. And that's why the course continues after the term is over.

• 20:03Dan Harris?

  Because every interaction is a moment to gather data about how you're feeling and how other people are feeling and the responses you have internally and externally to whatever moves you make. And so it sounds like the main skill you're teaching them is just to open up the data entry center. Instead of just moving through life as if every new interaction is a blank slate, you're constantly learning from every interaction so that you get better as you go.

• 20:34Speaker 04

  Exactly. We couldn't have said it better ourselves. Every interaction with another human being is an opportunity to learn not only about them, but about yourself.

• 20:43Dan Harris?

  Carol, you invoked the word mindfulness. I think you called it interpersonal mindfulness. Where I come from, meaning Buddhism, we meditate in order to learn how to be more aware of what's happening internally and externally, and both internally and externally. How do you teach people to develop interpersonal mindfulness in your course and in your book?

• 21:04Speaker 04

  It's through practice, in the same way that we learn to become more and more aware of our internal states through meditation. So it's in the doing. We're back to why it was so challenging to write a book. So I have an exchange with David. And first, I learn to maybe take a moment and notice what's going on for me and notice what's going on for him. Instead of just, "I'm just gonna barrel along." And it only takes a moment. And we also establish a relationship where if I am barreling along, he can say, "Hold on.

• 21:45Speaker 04

  You left me back here. Can we take it back a few steps?" Those are almost mechanics. Those are skills. Those are competencies. And one of the great things about the group process that David was just talking about and that we encourage people to do in the book is that I believe I heard one thing and you believe you said something else. And isn't it great to have somebody else to both help you, but even if you don't have somebody else, for me to say... Perfect example, I come into the kitchen, I tell my husband, "Can I help you with that?" He hears, "You don't know what you're doing."

• 22:26Speaker 04

  And it wasn't until we both realized that what I was saying wasn't what he was hearing, that we could resolve the pinch that arose from that. These are all techniques. These are all tools. We call those pinches. By the way, if you address something small, when it just bothered you, that annoyed you a little bit, your likelihood of that not turning into a big kaboom conflict is higher. So there are all kinds of ways in which we learn to be more interpersonally mindful and therefore competent.

• 22:59Speaker 03

  And if I can add to that, one of the keys, which we can't stress enough, is we urge people to... We constantly say, "What are you feeling? What are you feeling?"

• 23:11Speaker 04

  Right here, right now.

• 23:13Speaker 03

  Right here, right now. And many people aren't aware, which is why in the appendix of the book, we have a long list of emotions. And we have a handout for the students, and they look down and they say, "Uh, uh, uh, I'm feeling anxious."

• 23:28Speaker 03

  That, in essence, is a way to become mindful about what's going on with me. Picking up on the example of Carol and I interacting. If she's coming in like a Sherman tank, I can say, not only, hey, wait a minute, but I can say, hey, what's going on with you? And so I want to know her feelings. And she may say, well, I'm really impatient because we haven't resolved this and we've come back to it a second time. And so now I know her feelings. So the mindfulness is within me and it's a sensitivity to find out what's in the other one.

• 24:10Speaker 03

  And I sort of tell facilitators, there's only two or three comments you need to make. And the key one is, you ask people, what are you feeling? And the other one says, well, I'm annoyed. And the second comment is, who are you annoyed about? And what are they doing? It's in a certain sense, very simple. But we are so educated, we complicate up the interactions and have to have logical reasons. Where if we stick with our feelings, it's much more intimate, makes stronger connections, allows us to be known, allows us to know the other.

• 24:52Dan Harris?

  Just to repeat that back to you, so I've got it. You're essentially recommending that we have this mantra, both internally and externally of, how are you feeling? The way to develop the aforementioned two antennae would be to get into the habit of regularly just asking yourself, how am I feeling?

• 25:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:10Dan Harris?

  So you know, and then asking other people while you're in conversation with them.

• 25:14Speaker 04

  Yep. Which, by the way, is curiosity, which is the other reason I invoke mindfulness. Oh, how am I feeling? And then, how are you feeling? You're absolutely right. And then let that inform my choices in terms of where I go next.

• 25:34Dan Harris?

  I haven't taken your course, but I've done some work in this sphere, broadly speaking, some mindful communication, things like that. Do you ever feel like just having a quote unquote "normal" conversation, where you're not checking on your feelings or anybody else's feelings? And you're not doing reflective listening or whatever? Just like, quick moment of transaction? There's no feelings, no touchy-feeliness whatsoever? Do you ever just like not want to just drop all of this stuff? I'm asking for a friend.

• 26:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think most of our interactions, it comes naturally. But if I'm aware of myself and I'm feeling this gnawing inside of me, I'm going to want to listen to that. If I'm noticing this interaction, the other person's frowning, or seems to be holding back, or has an edge to their tone, then I'm going to try and be aware. I think the other thing is that one of the effects of this is I get tired with superficial conversations. I can only take a couple of minutes of it. And then I want to have things a little more meaningful. And notice with Carol's example, with a barista, a person she hadn't met before.

• 26:49Speaker 03

  She, for 30 seconds, had a more meaningful conversation. And one of the real advantages I find, without this becoming deep or heavy, that I can take many conversations and make it a little more meaningful, a little more connecting, and a little more full of learning for me and the other.

• 27:13Dan Harris?

  But you don't feel like you need to be constantly on your game, constantly checking in with yourself and other people that have this sort of immaculate communication style? Like, once in a while, you can say, "Hey, can you please pass me the fork?"

• 27:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's true. And there are many times, I know many, there are times in which I don't do it when I should. And Eve, my wife, not infrequently has said, "You teach this stuff. Why don't you do it?" So, we're all human. But when you have taken this course, and hopefully when you read the book, you have this in your backpack. And when things start to go wrong, and then I can say, "Oops, sorry, hon. I guess I was pretty insensitive. Now will you say again what you were wanting to say?" And we can recover. So you don't have to be perfect. You just have to be willing to take the risk and to recover. And

• 28:11Speaker 03

  that's part of what our students learn and what's in the book.

• 28:14Speaker 04

  And I do want to add that it isn't just when things have gone wrong. It's when things feel flat, or when you want more. So, back to your original question, it would be exhausting. It would be the equivalent of going and spending a year at a mountaintop in Nepal and doing nothing but meditating. You know, I can't imagine doing that personally. I admire people who have. And that's not what we're advocating. But what we are advocating is that if you've got more tools, as David just said, if you've got more in your backpack, you can move your relationships along a continuum from contact with no connection, or dysfunction,

• 28:59Speaker 04

  to maybe functional and robust, to exceptional and meaningful. That's the essence of the book. How do you move your relationships to the extent you both want to, along this continuum? At least you have a choice.

• 29:14Dan Harris?

  More of my conversation with Carol Robin and David Bradford right after this.

• 29:20Speaker 01

  Seventy-five percent of women who seek menopause care don't receive it. The lying awake at 3 a.m. wondering what's happening to your body ends now. Midi is virtual care built for women in perimenopause and menopause with clinicians who specialize in women's health. Plus, it's covered by most major insurances. Getting started is easy. You can book your first visit with a clinician right away. Midlife needs Midi. Visit joinmidi.com to book your first visit today. That's join M I D I dot com. Insurance coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage.

• 29:50Speaker 02

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 30:26Dan Harris?

  You've made several references during this conversation to the challenge of turning this course into a book. I want to try to kind of extract from you some, this is always my agenda as an interviewer, to extract from you some things that listeners can do in their lives now. And you've already given us one with the mantra of, how do I feel? How do you feel? What are some of the other practical tips that you provide in the book that we can do without being students at Stanford?

• 31:00Speaker 03

  Okay. Let me put that within a framework. What we found is there are six characteristics in building a relationship along that continuum. And those six give you clues. So the first one is, could I let you know more about myself? So what we encourage in the book is, pick a person, a friend, that you want a deeper relationship. Is there something about yourself that's relevant to that relationship that you haven't shared? Well, that's easy to do, but it may be a little risky. The second dimension is, could you build conditions where the other person could be more themselves? So, as Carol said, could I be curious?

• 31:44Speaker 03

  Can I say, gee Dan, how have you used meditation to have a more meaningful relationship with your partner? The third one is, can that build the trust so that when I share things about myself, what I'm worried about, what I'm concerned about, Carol won't use that against me and won't play gotcha? The fourth one is, so a clue is, am I afraid with this relationship to share something? Do they do something that gets me a little worried? The fourth one is, can we be honest and not hold back? Are there things that are relevant to our interaction that I haven't shared? These are all tips.

• 32:27Speaker 03

  The fifth one is, can we lean into disagreements and conflict? Am I sitting on something in my relationship with Carol, which I consider an exceptional one, is she doing something that might be bothering me? Have I held back on that? Do I want to take the risk of saying, hey Carol, it's a little hard, but I want to raise this? And I think the final one is, can I help the other person grow and develop? You see, we hold all sorts of information about what the other person does well and doesn't do so well, but we rarely say it. Could I, because I deeply care about Carol, say, Carol, when you do X, I think you limit yourself. I think that's an act of kindness.

• 33:11Speaker 04

  And he has.

• 33:12Speaker 03

  And she has too. So you see, those are all tips, but they all come from the basic model of the process of building a relationship is the process of learning. You have to do it in order to learn.

• 33:28Dan Harris?

  Let me dig in on those. And just before I do, put a fine point on it. You've both used this term exceptional relationship. That is a key term in your schema, in your system. And you, David, just listed what you call the six hallmarks of exceptional relationships. Exceptional relationships are the positive end of the continuum that you described earlier. So let me start with number one, the first of the six hallmarks, which is that you can be more fully yourself, and so can the other person. And this gets to vulnerability, which was invoked early on in the conversation, sort of being honest, sharing something that might be a little risky. And I'm just wondering about the do's and don'ts.

• 34:09Dan Harris?

  Carol, maybe you can take this of vulnerability, because it seems like, and Brené Brown, who's kind of the person most publicly associated with the concept of vulnerability, and has written a bunch of bestselling books and has been on this show. She often talks about, like, yeah, vulnerability is not just randomly bleeding all over the place.

• 34:28Speaker 04

  Right.

• 34:31Speaker 04

  Right. So that's why David said sharing something about yourself that's relevant to the relationship. Beyond that, I'll add that one of the models that we use and a tip, a useful tip perhaps for your listeners, is using what we call the 15% rule, which is if you imagine three concentric circles, and the circle in the middle is your safety zone, where you don't think twice about what you're going to say or what you're going to share. And on the extreme end is your danger zone. In a million years, you'd never say that. There's this circle in the middle, which is your learning zone. And we used to tell our students, you're not going to learn anything. And that's basic research on education, is you've got to step outside your comfort zone to learn something.

• 35:12Speaker 04

  However, our students used to say, but the minute I'm outside my comfort zone, and I think about saying something and sharing something, how do I know I'm not in my danger zone? And so we came up with this 15% rule. Step a little bit outside your comfort zone. You're unlikely to freak yourself or the other person out. And then you can see what happens and assess, and a funny thing happens. I shared a little bit with you. I made myself a little vulnerable with you. Nine times out of 10, you'll reciprocate. You'll make yourself a little vulnerable with me. And then both of our safety zones with each other, only with each other, back to what David said, every relationship is different, has grown a little bit. And then we take another 15% step.

• 35:57Speaker 04

  And that's how we build more and more reciprocal vulnerability, starting with our own disclosure.

• 36:05Dan Harris?

  Don't you think it would have been catchier if you called it 10%?

• 36:11Speaker 04

  Well.

• 36:12Speaker 03

  Maybe we should have 15% happiness. That's the only way to go, Dan.

• 36:19Dan Harris?

  I've told this story many times, that when I was preparing to release 10% Happier, my publisher tried to bargain me up to 20 or 30%.

• 36:27Speaker 03

  Too much.

• 36:28Dan Harris?

  I said, "You don't get the joke."

• 36:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 36:33Speaker 03

  So Dan, if I can build on what Carol said and come back to vulnerability. Vulnerability has a bad rap. And one of the exercises we do in class is we put that word on the board. And we say to students, "What do you associate to that?" And there's the usual stuff, weakness, frailty, failure. And then at some point, a student raises their hand and says, "Courage, strength." And I think it takes strength and courage to share something that may lead you to judge me negatively. That's our fear, that we'll be judged negatively.

• 37:14Speaker 03

  Now, again, I want to really emphasize the 15% rule. You don't share the sort of things that will freak you and the other out, but we tend to play it so safe. And I think most people are stronger than they think they are. And that's what they discover in the course. "Hey, I can do more than I thought I could. I can share this when I thought I couldn't. I could share that I'm a little scared about what's happening in the group." Now, I think it takes strength to say that. The safety thing is to just stay silent. So vulnerability, I want to define as it takes courage to take the risk of letting you know something about myself

• 37:59Speaker 03

  where you may judge me negatively. But I feel good enough about myself that even if you do, I know I'm not going to be destroyed.

• 38:08Speaker 04

  And the reason the course is so affirming is that I share this and it turns out you like me even more, or you feel even more compelled by me. And I've spent my whole life hiding this part of me, believing that I'd be judged negatively, only to find out that it's one of my strengths.

• 38:27Dan Harris?

  Okay, so that gets us to the second of the hallmarks, which is how you can engender in others the willingness to be vulnerable. And I'm guessing, but you'll correct me, that the answer, at least in part, is you going first. You know, you sharing something makes other people more likely to do it.

• 38:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's certainly true, because saying to the other person, will you go first? I'm gonna play it safe, doesn't work very well. But the other thing, and it's back to what Carol said about curiosity. I think other people wonder, do you really want to know about me? And often we don't, which is why relationships don't develop. Can we be curious? So Carol was curious with a barista. If there would have been more time, she might have said, well, what's it like with your daughter? How does it feel leaving her at home? What is it like when you go back? So if you are truly curious and ask open-ended

• 39:32Speaker 03

  questions, you're conveying, I really want to know you. And when people do that, they're gonna feel freer to tell you about themselves. And I think the barista said, well, thank you. And then she returned the compliment. So again, do we really want to know other people? And I'm sure you've experienced it, but I have, where the other person asks a question, and you know they just want me to end so they can talk about themselves. That doesn't get me to be open.

• 40:01Dan Harris?

  Well, picking up on that, here's another asking for a friend question. I have had the experience of being in a situation where somebody's trying to get to know me, and I don't have the energy or bandwidth, or I'm not in the mood, or whatever. And then I kind of hate myself for not, you know, being available, et cetera, et cetera. And I kind of get into this spiral. What are your recommendations for people who might find themselves in that kind of frosty situation?

• 40:32Speaker 04

  You know, I don't think there's anything more efficient than the truth, or more helpful to a relationship than saying what's going on, you know? I wish I had the energy for this right now. I feel bad that I don't. And right now, I just don't. Imagine how refreshing it would be if we felt empowered enough to say something like that. And by the way, it doesn't mean I'm never going to have the energy. And my experience right now is I'm appreciating your curiosity. I hear you wanting to know more about me, and I don't have it to give right now.

• 41:11Speaker 03

  And what is interesting is that statement, "I don't want to reveal myself," is very revealing. So, in a paradoxical sense, Carol's wonderful answer, she's saying, "I'm not going to share about myself, and I'm sharing about myself by talking about that."

• 41:30Dan Harris?

  Right.

• 41:31Speaker 03

  And that is very much a here and now, connecting sort of statement.

• 41:37Dan Harris?

  That's actually the fourth hallmark of exceptional relationships. You can be honest with each other.

• 41:41Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 41:42Dan Harris?

  I want to ask you about the fifth hallmark, because I think this is very rich territory. I'm interested to hear, what do you guys teach about dealing with conflict productively? David's laughing. You can't see him, listeners.

• 41:55Speaker 04

  We're both laughing.

• 41:58Speaker 03

  Well, the first thing is, we treat conflict as a positive thing, not as a negative thing. So let me use an analogy which I love. So Dan, you're driving to work, and the wheels are a little wobbly, the steering's a little loose, and there's knocking in the motor. You don't say, "Bad car, bad car." You say, "I gotta get this fixed." So if there's conflict, and in writing the book over four years, Carol and I've had many disagreements. We see those disagreements as a sign that something's going on that we need to deal with. Are we not really hearing each other? Do we feel that our contribution is being ignored?

• 42:43Speaker 03

  Does one person feel that the other gets their way all the time? Rather than just blaming the other person, can we see that as a sign that we need to work on this? And can we start to explore what's going on, starting with our feelings? "Hey, I'm feeling annoyed at this. What's going on with you, Carol?" And Carol says, "Well, I'm also feeling annoyed." And then we can say, "Well, what is it that's going on that's annoying both of us?" And that's productive. That's useful. If we would have been silent and not had any conflict, it would have been far, far worse.

• 43:24Speaker 04

  We would have never finished the book.

• 43:27Dan Harris?

  Yes, yes, yes, and... I know you're not supposed to say "no, but." You're supposed to say "yes, and." So, "yes, and." I understand that talking about your feelings is a step in the right direction. It is not uncommon for me if somebody says they're feeling, I don't know, shut down, or unsafe to say something, or I feel like you're being dismissive, or whatever, in any of my hobgoblins. I can get triggered by that, and then I'm off. I'm just defensive. I'm not in the game of the free exchange of feelings anymore. I'm defending myself. What's your recommendation for that kind of jerk?

• 44:07Speaker 04

  Well, first of all, I don't name them a jerk.

• 44:10Dan Harris?

  I'm being facetious.

• 44:11Speaker 04

  And I'm both being facetious, and there's something about suspending my own judgment of the other person long enough.

• 44:22Speaker 04

  To get curious, "Well, I've obviously done something that's really not working for you. Can you please tell me what it is that I've done?" Because regardless of what my intent might have been, you feeling dismissed is not what I wanted the outcome to be. So we have a whole model that we talk about that might be a little longer to explain and more complicated. We can go into it. It's the idea that there are these three realities and that in any exchange between two of us, each of us only has access to two of the three. The first reality is my intent, and the second reality, which is the only one known to both of us, is what I do. And the third reality is the impact that had on you.

• 45:05Speaker 04

  And the minute you say, "I feel like you dismissed me," first of all, it's not a feeling. And second of all, you're imputing my intent, and I'm going to get defensive. But if you say, "You know, I feel dismissed," then that could be an out for me because that's not what I intended. And even better, when I made those three suggestions and every time I got no response, that would be the reality number two we would both know. I felt dismissed. That's the impact. I'm likely to hear that as a suggestion for moving into problem solving and not going

• 45:49Speaker 04

  down the spiral of, you know, "Well, you're too sensitive." That's another attribution. That's also not particularly staying, you know, we have this metaphorical net we talk about, which is sticking with the realities you know. And so that's why there's discipline and there's competence in learning how to say these things to each other to lessen the probability of the defensiveness. Doesn't eliminate it.

• 46:14Speaker 03

  So let me build on that. So what Carol has done very nicely is to describe how you could handle it. But let's now take it that it goes wrong and how you then would handle it. So I say something, and I say, "Dan, when you do this, rah rah rah." And then you start to get very defensive. Well, your defensiveness is a feeling.

• 46:40Speaker 03

  I'm feeling defensive. Now, ideally, you would say, "Oh, I'm really feeling defensive. I wonder what that's about." But you might not. You might still be defensive. Maybe I could say, "Wow, Dan, are you feeling defensive?" And you say, "Hell, yes." And I say, "Well, what did I do?" "Well, you attacked me." Gee, I'm sorry. So, anywhere along this, and let's play it even worse. You get defensive and you attack me, and I attack you. Maybe we can say, "Hey, wait a minute. This is really going south. What the hell is going on?" And we'd go back to it.

• 47:25Speaker 03

  What are each of us feeling? I'm feeling hurt. I'm feeling defensive. I'm feeling not understood. So, you see, you don't have to do it perfectly. But if you have that model of going back to your feelings, of saying, "What's going on for me?" And "What's going on for you?" A lot of these conflicts don't have to lead to a shouting match or disaster.

• 47:56Dan Harris?

  Something I heard you say in there, and I think this came from Carol. You didn't use this term, so it may not be a term you use, but in my peregrinations in the sort of mindful communication world, I've heard this term of keeping it in the "I" or using "I" language. In other words, talking about your own feelings, which is one of the three realities, that you can talk about your own stuff, but there is a huge difference, and I think you kind of delineated this, but I want to put a fine point on it, between saying, "I feel like you dismissed me," that's "you" language, and "I feel dismissed."

• 48:34Speaker 04

  One of the things that really you might have seen David shake his head when he went to "I." Too many people think that as long as they start the statement with "I," they're staying with their own experience.

• 48:47Dan Harris?

  Right.

• 48:48Speaker 04

  Which is why we go back to what David was talking about with regard to feelings. It is grammatically impossible to express a feeling if you put the word "that," if you put any word after the word "I feel," other than a feeling.

• 49:03Speaker 04

  "I feel dismissed" is different than "I feel that you dismissed me." "I feel like what you're trying to do is dominate." "That's not a feeling and it's a you statement."

• 49:15Dan Harris?

  Yes.

• 49:15Speaker 04

  But people do that all the time, thinking they're expressing "I feel" statements.

• 49:21Dan Harris?

  I often think about the game here in communication. And I don't mean game in the pejorative, but like, the goal is to avoid activating the other person's amygdala. And you are definitely, or almost certainly, going to do that if you accuse them of something. Whereas just talking about your own feelings and also the second reality, which is the behavior, you know, non-agreed-upon stipulated facts, like, you're in pretty safe territory there. It's when you get into mind-reading that things can get pretty dicey.

• 49:55Speaker 03

  Right, right. Yes, absolutely. And one little addition I'd have is if even when I do that and you get into your amygdala, that's a potential for learning. "Hey, Dan, what's going on?" And if you're willing to look at yourself and you might, because you're in your amygdala, you may say, "Well, I feel that you're just being aggressive." "Ooh, sorry, I didn't want to be." "What's going on? What's the behavior? What does it mean to you?" And hopefully, the mindfulness antenna will start to kick in for you. "Oh, I know what's going on.

• 50:40Speaker 03

  You remind me of my older brother, who was always like that." "Wow, thanks for telling me. I'll now be careful to try not to activate that." "Do you see how we're connecting now? We're understanding each other."

• 50:57Speaker 03

  And were more interesting.

• 51:00Speaker 04

  Yep. And there's a piece that we have not talked about that I think is super important, which is to include your intent. So when David was giving you this example, wow, Dan, I hear that you're really upset. I'd like to know what it is that I did and what is actually going on for you. Even if you say, well, you interrupted me three times. Oh, gosh, I'm sorry. And wow, see that you're, you know, that's what is, what is that for you? Maybe now you say, well, this reminds me of how I was always being cut off at the dinner table.

• 51:34Speaker 04

  It's even more likely that you'll go there if I include my intent in asking or in my telling, I'm asking you this because I care about us. And the last thing in the world I want to do is have you feel put down or dismissed or whatever. And so I want to make sure that my questions and my offering of feedback to you, to the extent that I might have feedback for you is, it's clear that my intent is in service of us, you and me.

• 52:07Dan Harris?

  Yeah, I mean, absolutely. This goes back to what I was saying before about keeping the brain activity to the prefrontal cortex, you know, the sort of logical, reasonable part of the brain and not activating the reptile stress zones, including the amygdala. And one way to do that is, as you just said, making super clear what your positive intention is so that people don't have room to jump into paranoia.

• 52:31Speaker 03

  And I want to come back to it. If I'm getting into my really upset state, that's saying something. That's a potential for learning. I don't want to be nicy, nicy and make sure you don't get there. If I innocently do something, you get there, what could we learn from it? See, what is central is, and Carol said this before, and you said it, everything is a potential learning experience. And the stronger the emotion, the more important the issue. That's why I keep on coming back. If you're really upset, something important is getting triggered. What is it?

• 53:15Dan Harris?

  Yeah, actually, I'm glad you repeated that because I think you correctly intuited it. It might have whizzed past me because.

• 53:23Dan Harris?

  That's a very interesting way to approach conflict or intense relationships. Instead of launching into a whole story of, oh, here they go again, or this conversation is now a complete pain in the butt, or whatever. Actually, I'm going into data collection mode. The fact that this person has become dysregulated, or the fact that I've become dysregulated, is telling me something important. And figuring that out could have long-term lasting benefits.

• 53:55Speaker 04

  Which is why David is the big proponent, and I am right behind him, on how sometimes the way to get to an exceptional relationship is to lean into the conflict. Because on the other side of it is a way of knowing yourself and the other and each other that you might not have gotten to had you not had the conflict. We have had many stories, and one of them is the last chapter in the book. And we're back to the safer you play it, the less likely you are to end up with a really meaningful, exceptional relationship.

• 54:30Speaker 03

  And in all of this, which we can't stress enough, is all of this involves risk. There's no safe way to do it. So people say, well, build psychological safety. I don't think there's such a thing as psychological safety in total. Everything's a risk. If I share something about myself, you may judge me. If I ask you questions, you may feel intruded on. If I'm honest, it may break up the relationship. This conflict may derail us. It's all a risk. And the question is, if you want to build a deeper relationship, are you willing to take prudent risks?

• 55:14Speaker 03

  Prudent risks. And in the book and in the course, we talk about ways that you can lessen the risk, but you don't remove it. And even if it goes a little south, how you can recover. So the question is, if you want a deeper relationship, are you willing to raise the issues that may risk it?

• 55:37Dan Harris?

  More of my conversation with Carol Robin and David Bradford right after this. For both of us, the cold weather is now officially back. I, however, am not dreading it this year because I've got Bombas. They make socks, slippers, and footwear that keep me warm and cozy and snug all winter long, and everything they make is great for gifting, so I'm also not stressed about the holidays. Bombas makes slippers for staying cozy inside, and now they make footwear for going out and about, from fuzzy sundae slippers for lounging around in to water-resistant suede booties that can handle the winter. Bombas socks are a winter go-to as well. Merino wool and cashmere blend socks for warmth, fuzzy socks and plush gripper socks for cozy vibes at home.

• 56:19Dan Harris?

  They also, of course, make socks that you can exercise in. I am a heavy user of Bombas socks for working out. I also wear them when I'm wearing sneakers out and about because they look good and they're really, really comfortable. And the best part about Bombas, for every item you purchase, they donate an essential clothing item to somebody facing housing insecurity. One purchased equals one donated, with over 200 million donations and counting. Head on over to bombas.com/happier and use the code HAPPIER for 20% off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash happier and use the code HAPPIER at checkout.

• 56:56Speaker 01

  Most women have been there. Something feels off. You don't feel like yourself, yet your doctor says everything looks fine. Spoiler: it's your hormones. Midi is a virtual care platform built for women by women and offers specialized hormone care from trained clinicians. Plus, it's covered by most major insurances. Getting started is easy. You can book your first visit with a clinician right away. It's not you, it's your hormones. Visit joinmidi.com to book your first visit. That's join M-I-D-I dot com. Insurance coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage.

• 57:30Dan Harris?

  Okay, well, now you've said that, you gotta tell us, what are the ways that you can reduce the risk or repair if there's a rupture?

• 57:36Speaker 03

  I think a lot of what we've talked about. I think if I stick with my feelings, you're less likely to feel attacked. I think that if I ask about your feeling, I think that if I share my intentions, "Dad, I want a better relationship, I'm not out to get you," if I talk about what I want in our relationship, "I really want to be relaxed and be myself," and this is what's going on that's holding me back. Can we talk about what's getting in the way, not as a form of blame? But as a form of a problem that we can jointly work on and in jointly working on, we get closer.

• 58:16Dan Harris?

  Carol, are these risks harder to take when we're communicating across differences, gender lines, racial differences, political differences? Does it become increasingly risky?

• 58:28Speaker 04

  Well, it certainly feels riskier and it feels more challenging. I also used to think that in addition to course being called interpersonal mindfulness, it could have been called connecting across differences because it's easy to connect with people that are just like you along any of those dimensions that you've just named. And it's harder, also often more rewarding and a richer experience. And now we're back to, how do you mitigate? You don't eliminate the risks, as David just said. And yes, in some of those cases, it is riskier because you, when I understand even less of someone else's experience, then it feels even riskier to me when I say something that

• 59:11Speaker 04

  I don't know how they'll respond to. And I often try to err on the side of acknowledging that I don't understand their experience and I don't know it. And I don't want that to shut me down. I'm going to take the risk and I'm going to say something. And if it goes sideways, you know, we don't know that we have the capacity to repair until we've had to repair. So again, if you play it safe, you don't learn that you can actually repair. And I've had a lot of conversations with people on the other side of the political spectrum from me. I went to work as the only woman in a non-clerical job in an industrial automation in 1975. And for a long time, I didn't even know that I could be me.

• 59:54Speaker 04

  I had to become like more like them. So I think back to your point. It's riskier and more challenging and more rewarding, and an even bigger opportunity for learning.

• 1:00:08Speaker 03

  Let me give an example. A couple of months ago, I was asked to do a Zoom session on influence with black managers in a major American corporation. And I started by saying, "This is really a bit of gall for me, an older white man, to talk to you about this." I said, "I don't know your world. I only know my world." And then I said, "What I'm going to suggest, in a sense, is unfair, because it's asking things of you when white managers ought to get their act together." And then I said, "But too many of us are scared. And in some ways, this conversation is a little scary for me."

• 1:00:53Speaker 03

  And by being open about where I was and what I wanted to do, we had a wonderful discussion. And they said, "Hey, this guy understands us a bit." And again, I had to lead with where I was, what my intentions were, and admit that this may not sound like a fair sort of thing, but my goal is to make them more influential, which I think I did.

• 1:01:22Speaker 04

  And what you did, David, is you acknowledged. You know, I think one of the worst things that happens is we try to pretend these differences don't exist. That's like the worst thing we can do. You acknowledged. You acknowledged you couldn't possibly really totally understand. And I mean, we're back to that sense that I keep coming back to. If you say what's going on for you, and you're real about it, and you include your feelings, most people will respond in kind.

• 1:01:53Speaker 04

  Now, I do want to say one other thing when you asked Dan about, you know, in a conflict. Now, you've both escalated. You're both in your amygdalas. Some of the stuff that we talked about is like, well, sometimes it's okay to just say, you know what, maybe we need to take like 10 minutes and take a breather and come back to this. That is okay to do, especially if you've noticed that you've hit a wall with each other and you're just escalating. I'll also say one other thing that we missed in that conversation, which is, wow, it's powerful to say, gosh, I'm sorry. Man, do people have a difficult time just saying, doesn't matter that that's not what I intended. I am sorry and to mean it.

• 1:02:38Speaker 03

  And to mean it. I want to underline that because so often we say, I'm sorry.

• 1:02:42Speaker 04

  No. I feel really crappy. So not what I wanted. That goes a long ways, too.

• 1:02:52Dan Harris?

  Yes, amen to everything that's been said over the last couple of minutes. I really like all of that. And it sounds like you handled the beginning of that conversation really skillfully, David. I'll apologize if anybody hears sort of a low rumbling on my mic. I have a feline invader in my little studio here. Before we close, to point out the obvious, and I guess it's kind of, Kat provided a good segue to this. We're all, you know, many of us have been working from home, or working in suboptimal situations, or living in suboptimal situations for a long time now. And in some parts of the world, we're going back to work, and some parts we're not. And even where we're going back, it's kind of haphazard, and maybe we have social anxiety. It's a complicated situation when it comes to relationships right now. So I just wonder, as we come to a close here,

• 1:03:36Dan Harris?

  whether you guys could free associate on some ways to navigate the particularly dangerous environment, dangerous, maybe precarious, maybe loaded, fraught environment that we find ourselves in right now.

• 1:03:53Speaker 04

  Well, I would start by acknowledging, whoa, this is hard. One of the things that's happened over the last year and a half, in business particularly, is that tasks have gotten foregrounded and relationships have gotten backgrounded, which means that everything we've been talking about with you is something that people have to double down on if the only way we're ever interacting with each other is through Hollywood Squares. And people use the screen as a way to hide more than seeing it as an opportunity to... You know how when you're, when you do theater, you're supposed to speak louder so that people in the way back can actually hear you?

• 1:04:34Speaker 04

  Some of my participants in my Leaders in Tech program, CEO Fellows, have created mechanisms where they, when they get together in their twice-a-month executive team call, they start by actually saying, it's something they learned in the, in the program, in the Leaders in Tech program that I teach, "If you really knew me," and they each take 90 seconds, and they have to complete that sentence. "If you really knew me," and they have to use three feeling words, and they've all got their vocabulary of feelings. And in 12 minutes, they all understand where they all are in that moment. And then they dive into the, what they've got to deal with.

• 1:05:17Speaker 04

  And then many of them, after the call is done, will reach out to each other based on what they heard in the "If you really knew me." You have to build structures and you have to double down. Yes, David?

• 1:05:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, I have a colleague who said, "Oh, the good thing about Zoom is we cut to the chase and we cut out the unnecessary stuff." And what Carol is saying, we are human beings relating to human beings. It's that unnecessary stuff that allows us to know each other personally. We do it at the office with a cup of coffee, we do it when we drop by somebody's office, and what we need to do is when we're on the phone, when we're on Zoom, and when we're face-to-face, as Carol says, double down of saying, "Here's where I am. Where are you? What's important to you?

• 1:06:10Speaker 03

  What is happening to you as a human being that I need to know because it's you as a human being I'm going to be working with?"

• 1:06:19Dan Harris?

  Final question, can people really change?

• 1:06:28Speaker 03

  Yes, as Carol said, we wouldn't be in this business for this many decades if we didn't believe it. What we need to separate is are we talking about behavioral change or personality change? And if you're a manager, if you're a friend, I'm not into personality change. I'll let the therapists do that, maybe they can a little bit. But what we're talking about is behavioral change. So I want to come back to some of the examples. Carol said, sometimes she comes in like with a lot of force. She's in control of that behavior. I don't need to know what the hell is driving that.

• 1:07:13Speaker 03

  She just needs to know how it's affecting me and that she can control ourselves. So we can control behavior. And that's why the feedback has to be on behavior and not on character. So to say to somebody, you want to dominate, isn't very helpful. But to say, when I feel interrupted three times in a row, I feel dismissed. You have control over that.

• 1:07:42Speaker 03

  And so, yes, people can change behavior. And there'd be much more behavior change if people shared their reaction to the behavior and told the person what was useful and what wasn't. So at Stanford, we say, feedback is a gift. Because I'm telling you something you don't know. You don't know the impact of your behavior. I know that. And as a person who's concerned about you, I want to tell you. And if we had more of that, we'd have more behavioral change.

• 1:08:16Speaker 04

  And we'd have more functional families and more functional schools and more functional businesses. And I will add that that does not mean that change is easy.

• 1:08:27Speaker 04

  I know that I come in and I interrupt. I know that sometimes it irritates David, especially when we're in a setting like this. Sometimes I get so excited, I forget. And then he reminds me. And then I'm a little bit better next time until I forget again, or I get excited again. Over time, I get a little bit better. He also knows what it is that gets me in that state. Like, I probably timed in a little more than usual because I'm like, super excited to be on this podcast with you, Dan. I'm like, oh, my God, 10% happier. I'm such a fan. You know, I've like, arrived in some weird kind of way for me to even be,

• 1:09:10Speaker 04

  you know, talking to you. I meditated before I went into it, saying, Carol, you're going to have a tendency to really want to get in there, a lot. And as much as I tried to manage myself, there were times when I didn't do as good a job as I wish I'd done.

• 1:09:24Speaker 03

  Yes, but you're so much better than you were when we started to work together.

• 1:09:29Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 1:09:29Speaker 03

  It's, you're much better.

• 1:09:31Dan Harris?

  I thought you were both great. And thank you, Carol, for your kind words. In real closing here, this isn't a deep meaty question. This is more just something I like to do at the end of the show. Just can I get one or both of you to just plug the book and any other resources that may exist digitally or otherwise?

• 1:09:47Speaker 03

  Carol, go for it.

• 1:09:49Speaker 04

  So, the first thing I'd recommend is we have a website for our book, www.koneconnectandrelate.com. Because we couldn't get just connect. Connectandrelate.com. That's not the name of the book. The book is called Connect: Building Exceptional Relationships with Family, Friends, and Colleagues. But if you go to the website, Connect and Relate, you'll see all about the book, but you also will see some free downloadable tools. We've got a self-assessment that you can download. You can, by the way, use it to assess yourself, and you can also make a copy of it, give it to some people in your life, and ask them to fill it out and see whether they see you the same way you see you. We also have a free downloadable

• 1:10:33Speaker 04

  Create Your Own Learning Group Guide. So if six of you want to get together and buy the book and read it together, then there's a guide on how to get the most out of reading it together. And then you'll also see, under media, there's all kinds of podcasts and articles, if you want to just learn more through that means. And then, of course, there's an order button, which ultimately, we hope, a number of people will avail themselves of, that takes you to lots of different places that will sell it. And if anybody is interested in bulk buys, then they're free to contact us. And we've had quite a few companies, CEOs, that have said, hey, I'm going to buy one for everybody in my company.

• 1:11:15Speaker 03

  And if I could end with a funny story about this, we also recommend that if there's a relationship you want to work on, you may want to have that person buy a book. So I talked to somebody and he said, yes, I bought it for my wife. And she said, what? You think I'm the problem? So when you buy it for somebody else, you may want to share your intention. I want to improve the relationship, and it will help me if you, in a sense, are reading some of the stuff I'm reading, not you're the problem.

• 1:11:50Dan Harris?

  Well, I feel happy to have met you both and glad you came on the show. Thank you.

• 1:11:58Speaker 04

  I feel honored to have been on it, and I thank you, too.

• 1:12:02Speaker 03

  Yes, and it has been great fun, great questions, and a great discussion.

• 1:12:07Dan Harris?

  Thanks again to David and Carol. Awesome to talk to them. Here's a cool thing you can try out if you would like to practice some of the skills that they described, or get personalized advice. If you go to David and Carol's website, connectandrelate.com, there's an option to chat with an AI bot based on Carol. It's free, and you can get some really good tips there. Should make one of those for me. Also, don't forget to check out all the cool stuff we're doing over at danharris.com. Paint subscribers and get together and chat about today's episode and anything else you want to chat about. Also, you get access to live AMAs with me where we do guided meditation and I take your questions.

• 1:12:49Dan Harris?

  Tons of cool stuff. Come check it out. Just before I go here, I want to thank everybody who worked so hard to make this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson, Caroline Keenan, and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our production manager. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer and Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.

• 1:13:27Speaker 05

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's Small Business Line of Credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 1:13:57Speaker 06

  We work with veterans every day. Caring about people isn't the same as knowing how to help. Safeguard Veterans gave our team free online on-demand training to better understand military culture, recognize when someone may be struggling, and connect veterans to support and resources. It's practical, flexible, and our staff actually use what they learned.

• 1:14:17Speaker 07

  Get started at safeguardveterans.net. Click on Community Organizations. Safeguard Veterans is a 2026 pilot research program funded by the Department of Veterans Affairs.