Why Your Dreams Matter, How To Discover Your Purpose & The Question That Many Of Us Ignore At Our Peril with Dr James Hollis #540

Did you know that we spend six entire years of our lives dreaming? According to this week's guest, these dreams carry vital messages from our deepest selves that most of us never hear. James Hollis, PhD was originally a Professor of Literature and Philosophy at various universities until mid-life when he retrained as a Psycho-Analyst at the Jung Institute in Zurich. He currently lives and teaches in Washington, D. C. and is the author of twenty books, including his latest: Living with Borrowed Dust: Reflections on Life, Love and Other Grievances. In this conversation, James explains the important difference between purpose and meaning, and shares how his own midlife depression at the age of 35 was a pivotal moment that caused him to confront the harsh reality that despite "doing all the right things," he wasn't living true to himself. We explore the purpose of dreams and what vital messages are contained within them, why so many of us end up living our lives by other people's rules - trying to please family, fit cultural norms, or climb career ladders - and James explains that, whilst this approach might help us get by at first, it often leads to burnout, depression, and, ill health. James also introduces us to his thought provoking “second half of life” concept - not a chronological age but a psychological shift, when we start questioning who it is that we really are. At nearly 85 years old and still seeing clients three days a week, James is full of clarity, perspective and wisdom. And I’m sure this conversation will leave you feeling inspired and motivated to live a more authentic life. Support the podcast and enjoy Ad-Free episodes. Try FREE for 7 days on Apple Podcasts https://apple.co/feelbetterlivemore. For other podcast platforms go to https://fblm.supercast.com. Thanks to our sponsors: https://vivobarefoot.com/livemore https://drinkag1.com/livemore Show notes https://drchatterjee.com/540 DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your doctor or qualified healthcare provider. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  It's time to recover the innate curiosity that we had as children. Be curious again. We got so conditioned to stimulus response in the world out there. We forgot to be curious about life.

• 0:16Rangan Chatterjee?

  Hey guys, how you doing? Hope you're having a good week so far. My name is Dr Rangan Chatterjee and this is my podcast, Feel Better Live More.

• 0:29Rangan Chatterjee?

  How much of our life do we actually spend dreaming? What is the difference between meaning and purpose? And what does it really mean to live an authentic life? These are just some of the profound questions that my guests and I take on in this week's brand new episode. James Hollis, PhD, was originally a professor of literature and philosophy at various universities until midlife, when he retrained as a psychoanalyst at the Jung Institute in Zurich. He currently lives and teaches in Washington DC and is the author of 20 books, including

• 1:10Rangan Chatterjee?

  his very latest, Living with Borrowed Dust: Reflections on Life, Love and Other Grievances. In our conversation, James explains the critical difference between purpose and meaning, and shares how his own midlife depression at the age of 35 was a pivotal moment that caused him to confront the harsh reality that despite doing all the right things, he wasn't actually living true to himself. We also explore the purpose of dreams and what vital messages are contained within them, why so many of us end up living our lives by other people's rules, trying to

• 1:52Rangan Chatterjee?

  please family, fit cultural norms, or climb career ladders. And James explains that whilst this approach might help us get by at first, it often leads to burnout, depression and ill health.

• 2:08Rangan Chatterjee?

  James also explains his thought provoking second half of life concept, not a chronological age, but a psychological shift. When we start questioning who it is that we really are. At nearly eighty five years old and still seeing clients three days a week. James is a quite wonderful human being, full of clarity, perspective and wisdom. And this conversation, I am sure, will leave you feeling inspired and motivated to live a more authentic life.

• 2:49Rangan Chatterjee?

  There's lots for us to explore today. But I thought I'd start off by talking to you about dreams. In your view, what are the role of dreams? And what are the potential consequences of us not paying attention to them?

• 3:10Speaker 00

  Well, it might be useful to each of us to recall what sleep research tells us today. That is, namely, we tend to average in a single night's sleep, five to six dreams. And of course, everyone will say, I don't dream that much. I don't dream at all, or I never remember my dreams. But the truth is that activity is going on nonetheless. Secondly, if you live to eighty years old, and I'm headed into eighty five myself, we will have spent six years of our lives dreaming. Not sleeping, that is up to a third of our lives, repairing and restoring and processing. But six years, and nature doesn't waste energy.

• 3:51Speaker 00

  So we have to say it has some purpose in the whole system that we are as a complex organism. And moreover, I think if we begin to pay attention to our dreams, we begin to see that there is a presence there. And another presence, I want to be as vague about that as I can, because we really don't know. It's a mystery. That is paying attention to our life and is commenting upon it. You can put it this way, if you had the opportunity to speak to a two million year old sage, wouldn't you want that opportunity?

• 4:26Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 4:26Speaker 00

  And I think what he was suggesting is we carry the wisdom of nature inside of us. And there's something in us that knows us better than we know ourselves. Because in any given moment, we're likely to be on one sort of influence or another. We're responding to the clamors of the world outside us, or we're responding to intrapsychic components, complexes, drives, fears, etc. And yet, there is a constancy that's been there since your birth and carries us through this journey, possibly beyond, who knows? But that presence knows us better than we know ourselves. And again, may not be interested in our comfort, but it's interested in the truth of nature, whatever that might prove to be.

• 5:10Speaker 00

  So, over time, if we pay attention to our dreams, we begin to develop a conversation with some place within us that has wisdom, the wisdom of nature, may not fit into our cultural setting at all, but which tells us the pathway that is right for us, and pathologize us frankly, when we get off that pathway. From the standpoint of analytic psychology, we don't say, "Well, how quickly do I get rid of my symptoms or my fears?" We'd say, "Why have they come? What are they asking of us? Where is it we need to apply some consciousness and perhaps some effort?" And what happens over time, because, you know, when we're born, we have a natural authority. It's called instinct.

• 5:54Speaker 00

  But it's, we're tiny creatures, we're dependent, we have to respond to the pressures, the messages around us and so forth. So we lose contact with that voice within.

• 6:03Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 6:04Speaker 00

  So what I've seen in people over long-term therapy through analysis is their sense of the locus of authority in their life begins to move from outside of them, because we're always having to report to the world in some way, and begins slowly to shift to some presence within. So I could say to you, and I mean this quite sincerely, if I need to know what is the right course for me, right path for me, I sort of have to put it in there. And whatever that presence is, it will speak to me over time. I don't want to sound woo woo here at this point. Sometimes it comes to us at three in the morning a week from now. Sometimes it's a dream tomorrow night. Sometimes it's an insight, but there's something in us, each of us,

• 6:49Speaker 00

  that I think we knew as children. But again, we got adapted to the world around us and we lose contact with it. So dreams begin to tell us what the course of life is right for us as seen from the perspective of nature, not the society that we're reporting to at all times.

• 7:08Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, it's so fascinating, this idea that, first of all, that nature doesn't waste energy. So if we're dreaming, as you say, at the age of eighty six whole years, six entire years, it would be myopic to think that there was no real purpose for that, or it would have somehow been, you know, removed out of our being and our existence. It's also interesting what you said about this idea that there is a deep knowing within each and every single one of us. And actually, one of the most moving conversations I've had on this show over the past years was with the palliative care nurse Bronnie Ware. She spent many years caring for people at the end of their lives.

• 7:53Rangan Chatterjee?

  And she wrote a wonderful book called The Five Regrets of the Dying. One of the regrets of the dying that she said people would commonly say on their deathbed is, I wish I'd lived my life and not the life that other people expected of me. Right, so I think it's a really interesting tie into what you just said. Many people, I've seen many patients over the years, who are consumed with regret. You're saying that there may well be some powerful messages in our dreams if we start paying attention to them. So I'm wondering, what is the relationship, do you think, between us not paying attention to our dreams

• 8:35Rangan Chatterjee?

  and that deep inner voice and having regrets later on in life?

• 8:42Speaker 00

  Well, I think the message of childhood is overlearned, and it's a factual lesson, that you are tiny, the world's big, you are powerless, the world is all-powerful. And so, we tend, for understandable reasons, to relinquish that linkage to the voice within. And therefore, we're responding to the most troubled voice out there, or the most insistent voice, or the one we're exposed to, day in and day out. People get this strange idea that you're supposed to lie on a couch and complain about mother and father and so forth. Well, that's not what it's about. On the other hand, stop and think where your most elemental messages about self and other, and the nature of the traffic that goes on between.

• 9:26Speaker 00

  And you realize it came out of those formative experiences, where you're asking basic questions, like, "Who are you? Who am I? What's the traffic between us? How am I supposed to approach? Can I approach you? Oh, and by the way, what do you think of me? Do you think I'm okay as I am? Or do I have to twist myself in some way to fit something that you expect? Or do I just stay on the periphery and not ask anything of my life?" Those elemental messages get overlearned, so to speak. They're the only game in town, until there are other voices to come into our environment, of course.

• 10:03Speaker 00

  But in a sense, what we're saying here is that, yes, the pressures to fit in, to not be isolated, perhaps not to be punished, are overwhelming. You know, I've talked about the two threats to our well-being that all of us have, to be overrun by life, overwhelmed by it, or abandoned by it. Either of which could be, not only hurtful, but lethal, potentially. So, we learn quickly to figure out, "What's the environment asking of me, so I can somehow be in accord with that, so that, in time, you know, have a compatible relationship?" But it's in those day-in, day-out surrenders of personal authority. Of course, we do have to be socialized, to fit into a family, into a culture, and so forth.

• 10:48Speaker 00

  We're not talking about self-absorption or narcissism here, quite the contrary. But one also has to learn a certain kind of legitimate respect for what is wishing expression through us. How many times I've seen professions, I had many physicians, for example, and it pains me to say this, who became physicians because it would fit into their family expectations. The same is true with lawyers and other professionals. And, you know, we're always looking around for clues, how to live our lives. And yet, we're flesh with clues, but we learn to overwrite them. We all do. The feeling function, you don't choose your feelings.

• 11:31Speaker 00

  There are autonomous qualitative analyses of how your life is going as seen by the deep psyche. And so I can do all the right things, achieve all my goals, and inside it feels empty, or I'm depressed, or self-medicate. We have energy systems. When you're doing what's right for you, the energy supports you. When you're forcing it all the time, we all know it learns to burn out, leads to burnout and so forth. We also have dreams, which are often compensatory by saying, you know, your whole world's pushing you in this direction in terms of your adaptations, but you've neglected this whole part of your life over here. And then, of course, we have our old transpsychopathology.

• 12:15Speaker 00

  When we push too far to one side or the other, you know, it shows up as an anxiety disorder, as a kind of busyness that keeps us numbed, or a kind of, you know, depression that sets in. That's what led me to this work. My early life, I was an academic and I enjoyed it. I'm still a teacher. At the same time, I had to ask the question, why has my psyche autonomously withdrawn its approval and support from the agenda that I've pursued? And it was a good agenda. At the same time, something reached out and said, now, wait a second, buddy. You know, you're neglecting various aspects of your life. You've papered over some issues that, you know, we wish to address.

• 13:01Speaker 00

  And in those moments, you're summoned to an appointment with yourself. And that's what happens when people come in to therapy. They might think it's about their marriage, and of course, that's very important. Or they might be thinking about, you know, their career or something like that, or concerned about their self-medication, or concerned about, you know, their course in life. But underneath, the real question, are you living the life that's intended by your nature, not by the culture around you? And I realize that sounds, in the abstract, rather idealistic. But then, the price, again, is psychopathology.

• 13:42Speaker 00

  One can spend one's entire life adaptive, fitting in, serving what the world asks for. And it will show up in the strangest places. People will think that trouble is to be treated by the purchase of the latest shiny thing, and its pleasure lasts for days at the most. Or one feels that, you know, with a certain ingestion of a substance or something of that kind, that one's life is going to improve. Or you simply change your partner, and that'll fix things. And yet, there's something inside, again, that is wanting expression through us.

• 14:19Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 14:19Speaker 00

  Another way of putting this, and this is, again, a deliberate oversimplification, but it's true, I believe. The first half of life, we have to develop enough ego strength to step out into the world, leave our parents behind, and sort of say, "What's the world asking of me?", and try to meet that. Doesn't mean you have to do everything the world's asking of you, but you have to sort of at least become a presence in the face of that. But in the second half of life, we really have to ask the question, "What is life asking of me? What is the soul asking of me?" When I use the word soul, it's the literal translation of the Greek word psyche. It's that deepest essence within each of us. "What is wanting expression through me?"

• 15:02Speaker 00

  Now, I, for example, have, from childhood on, adored my teachers because I could see them opening a world that was larger for me. And so I became very identified with teaching, and that's the one consistent thread throughout my life. That's the way we're talking today. And I don't find it always easy. I'm an introvert. I couldn't have imagined as a child, I wanted to be a professional baseball player, I couldn't have imagined as a child spending most of my days listening to people suffering. And at the same time, I can't imagine anything more profound, more meaningful in my life.

• 15:42Speaker 00

  And so I feel that each of us has a vocation, and by that I don't mean job, I mean a calling in the world as a certain presence, as a value system. What is most deeply true for you, and can you mobilize the courage and the consistency to live that over time? And if you do, you know, the world may or may not approve of that, but it will feel right inside.

• 16:10Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 16:11Speaker 00

  And it's a form of service. You see, it's not inflation, it's not saying, well, it's all about my ego and my resume, or my wonderful children, or my properties that I owned, or whatever that might be. That's ultimately all out there. It's like, it'll be confirmed inside, you'll feel the rightness of it.

• 16:30Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah. It's so powerful, James. You shared your own story where you were a teacher, I believe a tenured professor, and then you were hit by depression. How old were you roughly when that happened, if you don't mind me asking?

• 16:46Speaker 00

  Not at all. I was between 33 and 35, and I undertook my first hour of therapy at age 35, right on schedule.

• 16:55Rangan Chatterjee?

  Right on schedule. That two halves of life is not actually technically a chronological one, is it? Or is it? I should ask you. Those two halves are a sort of metaphorical halves, I guess?

• 17:08Speaker 00

  That's correct, absolutely. In fact, sometimes it happens late in life, where a person loses their partner, for example.

• 17:18Speaker 00

  And they didn't realize the degree that they transferred their dependencies to their partner. Or if a person has been so identified with their work structure and they're laid off or they're forced to retire, or a serious illness comes to them. It occurs when it occurs. This is not a new idea. You know, Tolstoy explores that in The Death of Ivan Illich, which was published, I think, in 1885, in which a fellow who had completely followed the instructions, went to the right school, married the right person, lived in the right neighborhood, became a lawyer and then a judge, climbing up their ladder, et cetera, et cetera. And then one day, there's a pain on his side that doesn't quite go away.

• 18:01Speaker 00

  And, long story short, it turns out to be, you know, a fatal illness. And all of his presumptions about life just sort of fade away. And for the first time, having followed the instructions and modeling in his culture as well as he could, for the first time, he said, "What if my life has been wrong?" And nobody wants to talk about it because it's his illness, his problem, and they run from it. And he has the first honest conversation about what is my life about with a peasant who's there to tend to him, medically tend to him. And then he dies. And of course, Ivan Illich is like John Johnson.

• 18:44Speaker 00

  It's meant to be in every person's story. And, you know, here's Tolstoy describing that in detail. And he goes through all of the stages of denial and anger and bargaining that K übler-Ross identified and so forth, that, you know, tells us that Tolstoy was paying attention and recognizing, we all have an appointment with our souls somewhere, and the question is, have I shown up? Do I keep showing up?

• 19:09Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 19:10Speaker 00

  And frankly, the answer is no, because the- The voice within us so easily overwhelmed by the cacophony of noises outside of us, as well as the noises inside of us about fitting in, being acceptable to others and so forth.

• 19:28Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, it's interesting, James, hearing you speak, particularly your own personal story and the story you just shared that was written about by Tolstoy. And it's interesting, you saw your depression, your midlife depression as a signal that you had maybe made some choices that weren't fully aligned with who you were on the inside. Okay, Tolstoy's story that you just outlined there is about a chap who perhaps also was not listening to that inner voice, his soul's calling, and ends up with a physical pain. And I've heard you in other interviews say that, you know, what they're describing in that book is, was probably cancer for that individual from, I don't know if you know

• 20:13Rangan Chatterjee?

  that to be true or not, but, and so I'm really interested as to how does this lack of listening to our psyche, our soul, whether it be by not paying attention to our dreams or by not having any solitude each day to actually reflect on our lives. What is the physical impact, do you think, on our well-being when we don't pay attention to those, I guess, those noises, those sounds, that those messages that the body is constantly trying to send out to us if we can quieten down for a minute to start paying attention?

• 20:53Speaker 00

  Well, you know, it's human consciousness that separates ourselves. You know, we talk about the mind, we talk about the body, when they're aspects of the same thing.

• 21:03Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 21:04Speaker 00

  Where psyche embraces all of that, it includes digesting your food. It has to do with cellular replacement, et cetera, but it has to do with your emotional life, your spiritual life, your conscious intentional life.

• 21:18Speaker 00

  Would we be able to separate those things? Not really. We do consciously. But whatever occurs to me affects me in all areas of the body and of my emotional life and my spiritual life as well. I'm using spiritual life in the most generic sense of that term. Whatever speaks to you most deeply with a numinous quality to it. That is to say, something that touches you deeply within and moves you, you see. So, yes, I mean, the whole field of psychosomatic medicine is hardly new, but it's only now being approached, now being the last 20 or 30 years by Western medicine

• 21:57Speaker 00

  to take it seriously, to realize that sometimes the venue of the pathology is in the body. Sometimes it's in our unconscious behavior. Sometimes it's in our emotional life. But it always shows up in some way. You know, there's a bestselling book called The Body Keeps the Score. So everything that I experience shows up in the body. We know that. So that's why I've said before, it's not about suppressing a symptom. It's rather saying, this is a distress signal sent out by the psyche. And we have to ask, why has it come to us? What is it asking of us? What corrective do I need to make in my life?

• 22:41Speaker 00

  And that doesn't mean every illness is psychological in its origin. There are all signs of, all kinds of toxic and genetic influences as well. For sure. At the same time, we have to say, what is the meaning of this? What has this brought me to? To give you what sounds like a trivial example, but when I was a college student, I was living, frankly, for sports. And I had a torn cartilage and the surgeon went in at spring break and told me when I woke up, he said, I'm afraid we found a bone disorder there and we found your bones are disintegrating. And he said, I don't think you'll be walking by the time you're 40. So I'm lying there as a 19 year old. This is almost literally the case.

• 23:25Speaker 00

  I'm thinking, oh, well, I never had the body to be a professional, but I had absorption in sports. What am I gonna do? And I remember thinking, well, I am in a university. Maybe I could become a student, right? In other words, I had at that moment, unknowingly, an appointment with myself.

• 23:47Speaker 00

  Where does this energy go now? It had been moved from one field. Where's it going to go? That happens to us all the time through retirement or downsizing. People experience it through the COVID sequestering, for example, that they didn't realize the degree to which their emotional needs and structures were being carried by their work office assignments or their colleagues or family members that they could not visit at the time. And that was an appointment for a lot of people. And some people really understood that, dug in and found new aspects of their own personality that were crying out for expression. But again, it's like, whose life are we living?

• 24:30Speaker 00

  And, you know, one of the sentences from Jung that properly haunts me, and I think should haunt all of us, was where he said, "The greatest burden the child must bear is the unlived life of the parent." And what he meant by that is wherever I'm stuck or blocked, my children will be. Or they'll be spending their life trying to break through that barrier. So the best thing I can show them is not a perfect human being. None of us is capable of that. It's rather, have I faced up to my fears? Have I pushed through? Have I stepped into a personal authority? Because, you know, that's the biggest project of the first, second half of life is the recovery of a personal authority.

• 25:12Rangan Chatterjee?

  What does that mean, personal authority?

• 25:20Rangan Chatterjee?

  Today's episode is sponsored by the daily health drink AG1. The clocks are about to change. The mornings are darker. Everyone around you seems to be coming down with something. And suddenly, that well-being you felt in the summer seems a long time ago. I certainly know that feeling. And that's why, at this time of year, I remind myself to lean into the fundamentals. And one of those fundamentals is AG1. AG1 is a daily health drink that has been in my own life for over eight years. And one of the many things I like about it is the fact that many of the nutrients it contains, for example, vitamin C, vitamin A, zinc and selenium. Supports a healthy immune system. Some of the other things I really like about AG1 is that they are committed to

• 26:02Rangan Chatterjee?

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• 26:42Rangan Chatterjee?

  All you have to do is head to drinkag1.com/livemore to claim this offer before it ends.

• 26:50Rangan Chatterjee?

  Today's episode is sponsored by the daily health drink AG1. The clocks are about to change, the mornings are darker, everyone around you seems to be coming down with something and suddenly that wellbeing you felt in the summer seems a long time ago. I certainly know that feeling and that's why at this time of year, I remind myself to lean into the fundamentals. And one of those fundamentals is AG1. AG1 is a daily health drink that has been in my own life for over eight years. And one of the many things I like about it is the fact that many of the nutrients it contains, for example, vitamin C, vitamin A, zinc and selenium, supports a healthy immune system. Some of the other things I really like about AG1 is that they are committed to

• 27:32Rangan Chatterjee?

  continuous improvement and updating their formula as a scientific research involves. And each batch is independently tested for quality and safety markers, including heavy metals, allergens and banned substances. This is how they can guarantee what's in your scoop and what's not. Right now, AG1 is offering a free AG1 flavour sampler and AGZ sampler to try all the flavours, plus free vitamin D3 and K2 and AG1 welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription order. That's $87 in free gifts for first time subscribers. All you have to do is head to drinkag1.com/livemore to claim this offer before it ends.

• 28:25Speaker 00

  Of the plethora of voices hitting us, the noises outside, the noises inside, a lot of traffic, which voices are yours? That's a sorting and sifting process. That's a discernment, to use an old fashioned word that we don't think about very much. It's like pulling apart the threads to say, but what is this coming from? And me, I often say to clients today of a certain behavior or reaction. All right, the question is not what was right or wrong here, but what was that in service to you inside? In other words, it could have come from an old codependence. It come from a fear-based response, from a need to fit in, for example, or be acceptable to the other person. Those are not capital crimes, but they are, in some way,

• 29:09Speaker 00

  offenses to the autonomy and dignity of the individual human psyche. You know, that very adaptation that helps us survive in life becomes problematic. The single most important thing I learned in several years of analysis when I was in training in Zurich, which was, you know, in the abstract, sounds pretty obvious, but at the time was pretty devastating. Namely, what you have become is now your chief obstacle. Because what we've become is this adaptive personality, fitting in, climbing the career ladder, playing out social roles, some of which are terrific. I love being a parent, for example, or a partner.

• 29:52Speaker 00

  But some of it is not who you really are.

• 29:55Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 29:56Speaker 00

  And how do you tell the difference? And that's where the psyche begins to pathologize. It's helpful to remember that the word psychopathology, if I could be academic for a moment, if you translate it literally, means the expression of the suffering of the soul. Once you understand that, the expression of the suffering of the soul, then even the mildest of physiological conditions becomes in some way a summon. What's going on here? What's interrupted the ecology? The psychospiritual ecology of this organism?

• 30:32Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 30:33Speaker 00

  We don't tend to approach that. We bring our armamentarium in there with, in good faith. You know, I'm alive because of medical science and I'm grateful. At the same time, I realize that there is a deeper summons to accountability to the soul in all of our lives.

• 30:51Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah. I mean, so much for me to pick up on there. I completely agree that this is an area that I think Western medicine has ignored for a long, long time. Yes, there's growing awareness, but I still wouldn't say it's mainstream within Western medicine to think about these things. Okay? So if someone, let's say like yourself, at the age of, you know, 34, let's say, came in with depression,

• 31:19Rangan Chatterjee?

  I'm not convinced that the majority of medical doctors would be

• 31:25Rangan Chatterjee?

  asking you or helping you to see, well, what are those symptoms there for? You know, what is that message that's been sent to you by your inner voice? For example, it's certainly not how we're trained. You know, we're trained to, you know, look at this very biologically. Whereas clearly, when you just step back for a minute and reflect, you go, well, of course, you know, if something isn't right in how I'm living my life, of course, that may result in certain symptoms, which if I pay attention, those symptoms are there to help me correct course, right? So when I hear you talk, the word that keeps coming up for me is choice, right? And this intentional choice to, let's say, use those symptoms in your 30s.

• 32:08Rangan Chatterjee?

  You could either say, this is annoying, and I'm sure it was maybe frustrating and didn't feel good, right?

• 32:15Rangan Chatterjee?

  But you could just try, I guess understandably, because this is what culture teaches us as well, to suppress those senses. Come on, doc, give me something. I just, I don't want to feel like this. I guess that would be a disempowering choice to me, which is, again, maybe needed for some individuals, but, oh, I can't do anything about this. This is just what's happened. Please, doctor, I need to be dependent on you and this medication to help me feel good. Whereas the more empowered choice, to me at least, James, is going, okay, what are these signs here for? What are they trying to tell me? What would you say, James, if someone was to say to you, how do I know if I'm not listening to my inner voice or

• 32:57Rangan Chatterjee?

  my psyche? Are there some common symptoms or signs that I'm not listening to my psyche? What would you say to someone like that?

• 33:06Speaker 00

  Well, interestingly enough, I'll give you a specific example. There was a time when I was seeing five physicians, none of whom knew each other. All of them were conscientious. All of them between 55 and, say, 62. They were experiencing classic signs of burnout. As you said, self-medication, depression, irritability, et cetera. And we had the kind of conversation we were just touching on. And invariably, the defenses would come, well, you know, I've got to get the children through college. I've got to finish the mortgage. You know, I've got to pay off the boat. All good reasons, and also very bad reasons, as we know. What that was saying was, you know, I'm going to surrender to my stuckness

• 33:50Speaker 00

  here. And you're right, it's the natural thing from a conscious standpoint to say, give me a magic pill. My first hours of therapy were to a psychiatrist in a major city, and he gave me an antidepressant. It just numbed me out. And I persisted. And to his everlasting credit, he said at some point, it wasn't long, I mean, I think we probably saw each other 10 times, and he was very conscientious. And he said, you know, the kind of questions you're interested, you really ought to see a young one. And there was only one between Philadelphia and, or between New York and Washington at that point, and that was one person in Philadelphia. So I went to see him, and that's what led me ultimately to Zurich and so forth. These were questions of meaning.

• 34:33Speaker 00

  You know, I said before, and I'll come back to your main question. The central project of the second half is the recovery of personal authority, namely from the plethora of voices, many of which are legitimate, such as supporting yourself, taking care of your children, et cetera. There are legitimate commitments, but it's like, all right. But what, in addition to that, is really seeking its expression through you? And another related issue in the second half of life is permission. Because we know if our well-being depends on being acceptable to our family, let's say, or our religion, or our ethnic group, or our culture, or whatever,

• 35:14Speaker 00

  we have to sort of trade away that notion of the individual journey. You know, it's as if each of us has a different path, but that gets surrendered to the needs of the environment or the demands of the environment. So again, coming back to the main question, how do we know? Well, again, surrounded by clues. I had achieved by age 30 all of the goals of my life that I could see at that time, and all of them were good. At the same time, I felt inside empty. I felt, where do I go next? What do I do next? Secondly, I found myself being forced to do something.

• 35:58Speaker 00

  You know, one of the things I was resisting was, of all things, writing. Because I hated someone saying to me, you know, "You have to do this to sustain your job, is, you know, publish or perish in academia," you know? And so I dutifully wrote a book, about an English playwright, by the way. And then I didn't write for 20 some years. It was a complete blockage, and I think something inside was resisting. "I'm not going to be doing this just to sustain my job or in some way get a promotion." There was something else that was wanting expression.

• 36:40Speaker 00

  And in addition, the dreams were not supportive. Even before I started analysis, I started paying attention to dreams. And they were often repeating the image of being in a cell block of some kind, as if I was in a prison. Well, I was. We all are. We're in the prison of the concepts that we carry inside, the adaptive behaviors. Again, behaviors of adaptation that were once necessary, perhaps, once even productive, but over time further the split from the intentionality of one's own soul. I mean, you think about people who suffer discrimination because of their sexual preference, or children who have a special interest or talent,

• 37:25Speaker 00

  but their family or their culture says, "You know, that's not acceptable for us." Or a person who is born with some sort of racial discrimination and so forth. You know, the gender roles, for example. All of these are human constructs. I was just rereading William Blake's "The Garden of Love" the other night. It's a little short lyric written about 1798, which he talks about, "The priests in their gowns are making their rounds and binding with briars our joys and desires." He was recognizing, 1798, the weight of cultural complexes that shut down a person's emotional and biological life.

• 38:08Speaker 00

  Again, in service to what? You know, we do need rules. We do need the social contract to function in family and society. But again, we have to ask, at what price? And you know, that's where the issue of permission comes in. Things have to hurt sometimes enough to get our attention.

• 38:27Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 38:28Speaker 00

  And that's what happened to me. It finally got my attention. I think in some way, what I had done, and I don't say this in a judgmental way, is I decided to take the high road over the areas of conflict in my life by, you know, the ivory tower experience of living above it, staying academic, etc. But inside, the peasants were in revolt. And so I had to get off the throne and go down there and see what it was that was their current demand. And that was a humbling experience because this work of self-investigation is humbling because it tells us, you know, you don't really know what you're doing.

• 39:12Speaker 00

  You think you're in charge. You think you're the boss. You think the choices you're making are all the correct ones. It's not even what you're choosing. It's what's in service to inside of you that makes the difference. And you haven't begun to even look at that yet, have you?

• 39:25Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 39:26Speaker 00

  That was part of my experience. And the second thing there was, and you're accountable for that. This work is about personal accountability. If I blow the chance I have to live my life, whose fault is that? We can't spend our life blaming someone. It's easy to complain. It's something else to sustain that reactive pattern that we perhaps had to adapt, which we need to outgrow. Stand up, step into your life, and when you do, it's not going to be easy. Sometimes the price is exile. But you know, even as painful as that is, that might be preferable to being exiled from your own soul.

• 40:08Speaker 00

  As you said, on the deathbed, how many people will say, wow, I should have fit in more. You know, I should have spent more time at the office or whatever the cliche might be. And then you realize, you know, this is a short pause. What is it about? How am I to live my life? It sounds so cliched, but why is it a cliché? Well, because it's repeatedly true in each person's life. The day you stop asking those questions is the day you stop growing. Of that, I'm pretty clear here.

• 40:38Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah. It's interesting that you mentioned pain. And I think about this a lot, particularly as a parent of two young children. I think.

• 40:50Rangan Chatterjee?

  Can you actually learn these core truths about the human existence without going through pain? Okay, you suffered this midlife depression, which forced you, stroke encouraged you, start looking at your life in a different way. I, when my dad died in 2013, in my mid 30s, having been a carer for dad for many, many years, it was such a big physical and emotional hole in my life when dad died. And I remember for the few months after his death, I'd just walk a lot. I would just think. And existential questions within me came up for the very first time. I don't think I'd ever asked myself those questions before, but one of those key

• 41:32Rangan Chatterjee?

  questions was, whose life are you actually living wrong in? Are you living your life or someone else's life? And going back to what you said about first half, the second half, I kind of feel, and I'd welcome your perspective on this, I kind of feel that once that dam bursts, right, and you go from first half to second half metaphorically, it's quite hard to unlearn what you know or what you discover, right? Once you've even opened that door to go, actually, whose life am I actually living? It will start to niggled away at you in the background. You can try and distract yourself, but you know, in those

• 42:13Rangan Chatterjee?

  dark moments and those quiet moments at night when you're lying with your own thoughts, it will come up for you. You can't hide from yourself, can you?

• 42:21Speaker 00

  That's right. That's right. 3am, the hour of the wolf, you know, there is a wolf hollering outside and you say, oh, he has his eyes on me. Absolutely. And when, well, you gave a classic example there. When a parent is aging or passes away, you suddenly realize, oh, I didn't realize the way in which I thought there was an invisible barrier out there. There's always something between me and the universe. The barrier is gone now. The buffer zone might be a better phrase. And, oh, the statistics could apply to me, couldn't they? Because by that time, there are changes in the body and so forth. And you began to realize, oh, This thing called mortality is real. And that's often a very sobering moment. Now, that's a summons.

• 43:05Speaker 00

  The question is ultimately, how do you answer that summons? But, you know, that's one of the signal moments of a passage. I wrote a book many years ago called The Middle Passage. The middle meaning the adolescent passage, which has pretty much disappeared in our culture. And that's another whole story. And of course, the final passage into aging and mortality. But right there in the middle, and again, that's a very elastic term, middle, because it can cover several decades potentially. There is a time when your roadmap no longer is applicable to the road that you're actually traversing. Or your understanding of self and world has played out.

• 43:47Speaker 00

  And that's a classic situation of something has died. And nothing has replaced it. That's an in-between place. You know, midway in life's journey, I found myself in a dark wood, having lost the way. You know, the opening of Dante's Inferno. You know, it's like, it's not tied chronologically to midlife, but it's tied to those moments of revelation where you suddenly realize, oh, I am in some way in this condition called mortality. And somehow, I have to start addressing that. Not in a morbid way, but in a healthy way. Because it's mortality that makes life meaningful, too.

• 44:32Speaker 00

  If we just live forever, you do something for a century, you do something else for a century, you do something else for a century. Choices wouldn't matter.

• 44:41Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 44:42Speaker 00

  It would just keep rolling on. It'd be a portrait of the jet set, full of boredom, you see. There was a line in one of Hemingway's short stories where the character says, "That's all we do, isn't it? Just go to the next town and try a new drink." You know, it was a portrait of vacuity, of emptiness. And all they had was keep, keep moving, keep moving, you see. It's the only way you know you're not dead, if you're still moving. And to come back to your question. Often it takes pain to get our attention. There are times, though, when a person will spontaneously step into the next stage. You've probably seen it with children, where suddenly, you know, they're ready to try the two-wheeler, so to speak. They can do it by themselves. They don't need you holding them up.

• 45:27Speaker 00

  It's a natural, spontaneous movement of one's whole being into the next stage. And sometimes one has good modeling around one. Because when, as I come back to Jung's comment about the unlived life. But if a child sees the person, the family, growing and dynamic and moving on and taking legitimate risks and so forth, then one sees life is full of choices. There are open doors. You can walk through them. It not only models something, it gives permission to undertake the next stage of your journey.

• 46:01Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 46:02Speaker 00

  And those are not pain-based, you know, movements that you can learn. Positive mentoring is a positive thing for people.

• 46:11Rangan Chatterjee?

  Trying to listen to that inner voice is something I think many people will struggle with, or initially they'll hear that and go, "Well, yeah, but how do I do that? You know, how do I know if the voice I'm hearing is my ego voice? How do I know if it's actually my deep soul's voice?" What kind of guidance do you have for people if they want to start embarking on this kind of self-exploration journey?

• 46:40Speaker 00

  Well, that's a profound question, and that's part of what therapy is about from the standpoint of analytic therapy. We're not there to deal with an immediate problem. And there's a place for that in therapy, of course. It's really to undertake what is really a lifelong exploration. And one of the things that you can do is start looking at the patterns in your life. Generally speaking... Person doesn't wake up in the morning and say, "Well, today I'm gonna do the same stupid, counterproductive, hurtful things as I've done in the past," but there's a chance we will. So you start with the behaviors that you find counterproductive, hurtful to you, or against

• 47:23Speaker 00

  your interests, long-term interests, or hurtful to others, and say, "All right, now, what is going on there? What's produced that pattern?" You know, our behaviors are logical. If we can understand the emotional premise, there are concerns to inside of it. So, you know, the problem with the unconscious is it's unconscious. I was in a hospital a couple of years ago, and I was about to undergo a rather painful procedure, and the nurse was, I think, trying to distract me. She asked me what I did, and I told her. She says, "How does that differ from being a psychiatrist?" And I said, "Well, for one thing, we try to evoke a conversation with the unconscious." She thought about that for a while, and she says, "Oh, I get it. You work with people in a coma, right?"

• 48:05Speaker 00

  I said, "So to speak, there's a truth to that, yes. We're all unconscious in some profound ways." But to pay attention to what's going on in that 3:00 AM conversation, why has that come up? There's something there that is wishing your respect. It doesn't mean you have to literalize something, go do it that day. It means that you have to take seriously the question that has come to you, as Ivan Illich did. "What if," for the first time, he said, "I didn't live my life the way I was supposed to?" I mean, he lived the way everyone said he was supposed to, but there was something inside that had never addressed. "But my life is a different journey, respecting the lives of others and journeys of others,

• 48:50Speaker 00

  but I have my own here." So, we specifically then try to work. That's one reason why we pay attention to dreams in therapy, you know? And it's very hard to... Undertake one's own dream work. But it's important to say, all right, the dreams are often commenting, often using analogies. In other words, it may not be dreaming about the literal situation or the specific theme here, but it will show if there's a stuck place, for example. For example, I gave many of my dreams at midlife had to do with feeling I was in prison somewhere or like in jail cell. And in one of the dreams, I realized,

• 49:34Speaker 00

  yes, I am in a jail cell, but there's no, this cell door is not locked. All I have to do is open that and walk out. I mean, it was kind of like, hey, you know, pay attention, maybe, maybe you're not here forever. You can walk out of this.

• 49:47Rangan Chatterjee?

  Are there other common dreams, Jim, that you've discovered people have that? I'm just wondering for people listening, are there other sort of common patterns you've seen in their dreams that you have an explanation for?

• 50:00Speaker 00

  Well, yes, in a very generic way, because we can't sit here and give a universal interpretation of a dream. It's rising out of that person's unique life, utilizing the symbolism of their unique journey. For example, if you and I dream of our grandmothers this evening, well, there's grandmothers in us. You can look at that, but your grandmother experience and mine are quite different. We'd have to pull up the associations of that individual. Because the individual ultimately is a better interpreter of their dreams than an outsider might be. But we sort of coax and tease that up out of a person until we begin to get some sense. You can put it this way, when you begin a dream, you'd say, I have no idea what this dream means,

• 50:42Speaker 00

  but together, we're going to sort of fret this through together until some of these images begin to resonate within the dreamer. And that's when you know you're starting to track something that's real for that person.

• 50:58Speaker 00

  That word resonance, I think, is important. When you begin to approach something that the dream is pointing toward, it resonates within the dreamer. He or she begins to feel some kind of affective discharge that sort of underlines that. And to not be too literal, it's so easy for the ego to say, "Oh, I know what that was on the last night on the evening news. I was reading this," or "This happened at work yesterday." And the psyche doesn't have any obligation to repeat what's happening in your outer world. You already know that consciously, but it can borrow that material to analogize with someplace else in your life, you see.

• 51:40Rangan Chatterjee?

  Jim, could we make the case that it's not necessarily that we have to correctly interpret our dreams, but just the mere act of pausing in your life, not staying on the treadmill and actually asking these questions, "Oh, I wonder what that means. Oh, does it mean that I'm in some sort of mental prison I've created for myself?" Whether that's actually true or not with respect to what that dream signifies, if all the dream does is give you the invitation to say, "Hey, listen, you need to stop and start exploring your inner worlds," maybe that's some of the benefit of dream exploration as well. What would you say to that?

• 52:21Speaker 00

  Well, I would concur. What's interesting, too, is many times people will say, "I don't dream," or "I don't remember the dream." But when they start analysis, they start remembering their dreams. It's interesting how, once you remove your doubt, cynicism, or perhaps fear, because at some level, people fear their own depths. We need to understand our psyche is not against us. There may be forces within us that are not in our interests, and there for all the more reason to bring them into some conscious relationship because they'll be acting autonomously. If I ignore it, it doesn't mean that it's not acting out in some way. Freud gave an example of a young man

• 53:05Speaker 00

  who repudiated the content of one of his dreams. He said, "I have nothing to do with that dream. That's not me." And Freud simply said, "Now, whose dream do you think it is?" And many times I've said to people, and a kind of variation of that, when they've had a dream that really... Brought into focus some issue they're really dealing with. They're sort of resonating with what that could mean to them. And I said, now, did I plant that dream in you? They go, no, no, no. Did you make that up? Oh, no, no, no, no. It's almost like I accused them of plagiarism. And I said, all right, no, but it's your dream. Unmistakably, your dream.

• 53:47Speaker 00

  So we'd have to say something in there is, again, trying to solicit a conversation with you. We have to take that seriously. And that's when the analytic work deepens at that moment. We began by addressing that. The presence of some sensibility, some consciousness that is foreign to our ordinary ego consciousness, yet is coming from our own depth. And if one grasps the implication of that, which is profound, it begins to change one's orientation in life.

• 54:27Speaker 00

  From that point on, you realize, you know, there's something in you that, again, knows what's right for you. And it may not make your life easy, but it will make it more authentic. And that is something that plays out over time.

• 54:44Rangan Chatterjee?

  In your book, In Between Worlds, you wrote that Jung concluded that there was a deep resilience within each of us guided by some locus of knowing, independent of ego consciousness, which I just found was just so profound and it completely stopped me and made me think about so many different things. There's this, you know, this kind of, this deep resilience within each of us. You know, what we're speaking to, in essence, throughout this conversation, Jim, is...

• 55:22Rangan Chatterjee?

  Meaning, right? It's are we living a life of meaning or not? And I know you've written a lot about meaning, but when I hear that term being used regularly these days, it usually comes alongside another word, purpose. So people will say, yes, my life, I need more meaning and purpose. They often come together. Is there a difference in the way you see those words between meaning and purpose? And if so, what is it?

• 55:58Rangan Chatterjee?

  Today's episode is sponsored by the daily health drink AG1. The clocks are about to change, the mornings are darker. Everyone around you seems to be coming down with something. And suddenly that wellbeing you felt in the summer seems a long time ago. I certainly know that feeling. And that's why at this time of year, I remind myself to lean into the fundamentals. And one of those fundamentals is AG1. AG1 is a daily health drink that has been in my own life for over eight years. And one of the many things I like about it is the fact that many of the nutrients it contains, for example, vitamin C, vitamin A, zinc and selenium, supports a healthy immune system. Some of the other things I really like about AG1 is that they are committed to continuous improvement

• 56:42Rangan Chatterjee?

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• 57:28Rangan Chatterjee?

  Today's episode is sponsored by the daily health drink AG1. The clocks are about to change, the mornings are darker. Everyone around you seems to be coming down with something and suddenly that well-being you felt in the summer seems a long time ago. I certainly know that feeling and that's why at this time of year, I remind myself to lean into the fundamentals and one of those fundamentals is AG1. AG1 is a daily health drink that has been in my own life for over eight years and one of the many things I like about it is the fact that many of the nutrients it contains, for example, vitamin C, vitamin A, zinc and selenium, supports a healthy immune system. Some of the other things I really like about AG1 is that they are committed to continuous

• 58:11Rangan Chatterjee?

  improvement and updating their formula as a scientific research involves. And each batch is independently tested for quality and safety markers, including heavy metals, allergens and banned substances. This is how they can guarantee what's in your scoop and what's not. Right now, AG1 is offering a free AG1 flavor sampler and AGZ sampler to try all the flavors, plus free vitamin D3 and K2 and AG1 welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription order. That's $87 in free gifts for first time subscribers.

• 58:50Rangan Chatterjee?

  All you have to do is head to drinkag1.com/livemore to claim this offer before it ends.

• 59:04Speaker 00

  Sure, I would just say first of all, I'd like to underline what you just said. Most of our difficulties, our psychological difficulties and perhaps some of our physical difficulties are crises of meaning. And until we begin to address it at that level, it will stay stuck in the dilemma. You might have some symptomatic improvement, but the issue doesn't change. Life doesn't move forward, it just moves in the old way in which it was moving. And yes, you know, the purpose is more ego oriented. Like, there's purposeful activity in earning a living. There's a purposeful activity to look both directions for you across the street.

• 59:45Speaker 00

  These are, these are bound to our concept of relating to the outer realities. But meaning has to do with our relating to the inner realities. You can do all the right things, which is what I had done conscientiously at midlife. And then, it's as if my assumptions or purposes walked away from me. You know, I could no longer see, why do I want to just keep doing this the rest of my life, you see? And that was a crisis of meaning. And it wasn't that it had to do necessarily with changing the outer relationship, or changing a career, or changing one's geography, or something like that. That's the first thing that consciousness thinks about.

• 1:00:29Speaker 00

  How do I rearrange the furniture of my outer world?

• 1:00:32Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:32Speaker 00

  It's more about saying, maybe there is something entirely different within you that is needing to address, to be addressed, in order to step more fully. No, just one other further personal example. I'd experienced a lot of medical difficulties as a child. So initially in life, I wanted to become a physician. But then, when it came time to make those choices, I moved off into the humanities. And I had a bit rich experience there. I'm glad I did. At the same time, I didn't realize what was pulling the, the switch inside that sent the train down this track instead of another track.

• 1:01:13Speaker 00

  And that's why, in some way, and I talk about this in my next book, I, as a part of my analytic training, I of course had to have clinical experience. And so I worked for three years also in a psychiatric hospital, state psychiatric hospital. First week I was there, the psychiatrist, an older fellow who'd been in the military, I was assigned to him to, you know, as my, you know, superior and, and guider, so forth. And he says, "Come with me, Al. I want to show you someone I think you'd work very well with." So we walked into a room, and there were people gathered around in a circle.

• 1:01:54Speaker 00

  And I looked in, and something kicked me right in the stomach, so to speak, a diaphragm. And at the same time, I knew, macho code, don't reveal anything, because I knew he was watching me. He had taken me to an autopsy. If he'd asked me, "Do you want to go see an autopsy?" I would have said yes, out of duty. This is part of the learning, but inwardly, I would have said no. But it was like all of the experience I had had of suffering as a child came rushing back in that moment. And for some time after that, I dreamt of it, of course, and I took it into my analysis and so forth.

• 1:02:39Speaker 00

  My analyst said, quite appropriately, "When you face the fears from your own history, the fears that are occasioned by the outer world will not be so overwhelming." And of course, I knew intuitively the truth of that. And so, I realized, "Isn't it interesting how my psyche, contrary to my intentions, and that's why there's a difference between purpose, my purpose there was to accumulate clinical experience. The meaning of it was taking me back into the body to suffering, to what can be the horror of life,

• 1:03:23Speaker 00

  as real as the beauty of life, and to go through it, to deal with it. And that was part of what I had to transform in that. There's nothing wrong with fear. That's natural and normal in human life. There's something wrong with living a fear-driven life, though. There's a difference there. And I realized, I'm here because I belong here. This is what I need to do here. My own psyche, which once was terrified of hospitals, had to come back into a hospital as an adult to absorb what was overwhelming to the child. So I think in that example, you can see the difference between purpose and meaning. Meaning comes from the soul.

• 1:04:08Speaker 00

  Purpose has to do with our orientation and adaptations in the outer world.

• 1:04:14Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah, I love that distinction. If I could just use that example and just probe a little bit further, because I find this topic super fascinating.

• 1:04:24Rangan Chatterjee?

  Some people who use those words meaning and purpose interchangeably may hear what you have just said and go, okay, Jim, when you were, you know, you were, you were doing purposeful activities, learning what you had to learn, you were doing what you needed to do to earn money for your family, these are all purposeful activities, but they're not you necessarily finding your purpose. And I think, I think about this a lot, right? What does it actually mean to live a life of purpose? Because I think sometimes it's interpreted as I have to find that one thing that I've been put on this earth in order to do. And perhaps that is a reasonable thing for some people if they live in a world and

• 1:05:07Rangan Chatterjee?

  an environment where they can find that true thing that their soul is calling to them regularly, right? But I think also I recognize that a lot of people can't do that, or they don't seem to be able to do that. So what I've often said to people is, listen, if for example, you, you work in a call center and you don't like your job, right? So you're literally doing that job to pay the bills and feed your children, right? Which is a purposeful activity.

• 1:05:36Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 1:05:37Rangan Chatterjee?

  I often, or I have said to people, I say, listen, if we can help together figure out what your inner core values are, right? And you start living a life in alignment with those values, to me, that is a purposeful life. So to make that a bit more practical, for that person who's working in a call center, and they don't like their job, if one of their inner core values is kindness, right? It's really important to me to be kind.

• 1:06:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:06:08Rangan Chatterjee?

  Then I believe that if that person is kind to the barista who makes his coffee on the way to work, if he is kind to the bus driver who drives him to work, if he is kind to his work colleagues and his manager when he's at the job he doesn't like, I still believe that is a purposeful life. And the more people start living in alignment with those inner values, the more likely it is that an opportunity is going to present itself where they could potentially leave that job and do something else. So I'd, I'd love your perspective on, on that take, which I've just presented, if you don't mind.

• 1:06:47Speaker 00

  Of course. No, I fully concur with your point of view.

• 1:06:52Speaker 00

  It's purposeful and meaningful to have family life. It's purposeful and meaningful to be self-supporting, as that person is doing. Sadly, most of the history of humanity has never allowed people, or all sorts of social structures, for reasons, you know, coming from the time and culture, didn't allow them opportunity for self-expression. You know, one can be born a slave, so to speak, or born into harsh circumstances, or be biologically impaired, or a thousand things. But you're absolutely right. You know, within the context of family life, work life, if kindness is a value, you're going to have plenty of opportunities to exercise that.

• 1:07:36Speaker 00

  And you do it not even about the other person, because it's right for you to do that. See? That's part of who you are, so you honor that. There's depth and dignity in labor, for example. I mean, I've worked in jobs I hated. Factory work, digging ditches, et cetera, as a young person. And I never liked the work, but it was purposeful to learn skills, to support myself, et cetera, et cetera. But it wasn't meaningful for me, other than being self-supporting. That part was meaningful. What made clear to me is I needed to find another way to earn a living, to pay for my daily bread, so to speak.

• 1:08:19Speaker 00

  Now, again, meaning and purpose, when they're aligned, is a much more harmonious life. Because it's purposeful to continue to live. It's purposeful to be self-supportive. If one can, one has the capacity to do that. It's purposeful to be kind to others, et cetera. But there's also, I'll come back again to a personal example. It was very purposeful for me to get an education. I had a doctorate by the time I was 27, and I entered the world of academia, which I enjoyed. At the same time, I also, later, through analysis and my dreams and so forth,

• 1:09:02Speaker 00

  came to realize it was my way of avoiding, to take the high road, if you will, to avoid the fury and mire of human veins, as Yeats put it, that I had found going on back in the hospital. That's why I said I was stunned to realize my own psyche had pulled me back into the place that I had fled. And there was profound meaning in that. It was purpose for me to get clinical experience. I was required to do that. The real meaning of it was, you can run, but you can't hide. Your own psyche is going to pull you back here, and it's going to help you or drive you to confront your fears, so that they're no longer your fears.

• 1:09:47Speaker 00

  And, you know, shortly after that, my adaptation, my fitting into what was a locked ward of a psychiatric facility within which were many psychotic individuals, was a much more profound experience, because I was much more aware of their suffering. I was less concerned about my apprehensions about them, and more concerned with what suffering had brought them to that place, whether biological, social, or both. And so, that's why I said earlier in this conversation, I would have never imagined as a child, spending my life with people who are experiencing suffering of one kind or another. And yet today, I'm blessed to have the opportunity

• 1:10:32Speaker 00

  to share the meaningful purpose of their journeys, and as part of my journey, to be part of that conversation with them. Again, that's why we're talking today. And the thread that runs through that has always been teaching. Now, you can teach as a way of earning a living, but you can also teach because there's something that you find meaningful about sharing what you've learned with people in a way that could be helpful to them.

• 1:10:58Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:58Speaker 00

  And there's a difference there. There's a subtle difference between purpose and meaning. But meaning is really how this speaks to and honors something deep within you that is wishing, expression through you. You know, I'm in a place where I could have retired a long time ago, but I'm still doing these things. I'm still working with clients, because, as I say to my wife... What better can I be doing with my life than the thing that matters most to me? You see?

• 1:11:28Rangan Chatterjee?

  It's funny you just say that. You're almost eighty five.

• 1:11:33Rangan Chatterjee?

  You're still working. You're still seeing clients three days a week regularly. And I know from what I've heard that you don't really engage with social media.

• 1:11:45Rangan Chatterjee?

  I'm not sure how much you're aware of this longevity and anti-aging movement that is growing these days about how can we? Well, it's interpreted in many ways.

• 1:12:00Rangan Chatterjee?

  How can we make sure that as long as we're alive, we're as active and as well as we can be? There's also a lot of people who are talking about delaying aging, extending human lifespan. Perhaps, you know, there's all kinds of wild claims being made at the moment around that. But the people who tend to be talking about that, and I follow this movement quite carefully, I find a lot of it is biological. Okay, it's physical activity will do this to your hormones and your mitochondria. Getting enough sleep will, you know, have these kind of biological effects on your body, right? And those things are deeply fascinating to me and are very, very interesting.

• 1:12:44Rangan Chatterjee?

  At the same time, I have a deep belief within me that if you don't have a reason to get up in the morning, if you really don't have that reason, you know, on a very, very deep level, at some point, that is the start of the end. That is the start of that decline. And I see many people around me where I live, you know, women in their nineties, who I don't think have been that proactive about their health and wellbeing, but they have a deep sense of connection to the community. They've got things that they need to do and they want to do to help other people. There's a real passion, a sense of purpose, a sense of meaning.

• 1:13:28Rangan Chatterjee?

  And I really do believe that this is the big piece, that the whole longevity movement is not really talking about enough. And I really appreciate your perspective as someone who is in their mid eighties, who seems to be sharp, vibrant, still seeing clients. How important do you think having a reason to get up each day is for you and frankly all of us?

• 1:13:52Speaker 00

  Well, that's a profound observation. I agree with you totally. When I look at that movement, it's not like I'm eager for early death, that's not the point, but I say, so why is it you want to live longer? You know, what is that in service to? Seriously, is that simply about your ego saying, "Well, I want what I want"? Ironically, it's the decline of tribal religions, of institutional assurances, of another life that has made people even more fanatic about living longer. Ask the question, "Why should you live longer"? You're, you know, taking up space on the planet, you're polluting the planet with no bad intentions,

• 1:14:36Speaker 00

  but you are. Why should you live longer? Just to serve your ego? Rather, the question, there's a difference between knowledge and wisdom. It's like, "Why am I here and in service to what"? And I fully concur that longevity itself is not the goal. I don't want to continue any longer than I'm able purposefully and meaningfully to live my life. You know, when the time comes, I believe I will be able to say, because there was a time rather recently when that was pretty much up for grabs, where I said, "Well, it's my turn now." The main reason I want to live is I want to be here for my wife, who is one year younger.

• 1:15:19Speaker 00

  She needs my help. I want to be her companion and support and caregiver. Secondly, I'm still learning. I have an insatiable curiosity. I'd love to hear about advances in the sciences and astronomy and so forth. Not that I have the capacity to understand it all, but I just realize it's an expanding universe. Thirdly, I have work that is so meaningful to me. Why would I want to quit that? I don't, but you're right, because I have something moving and profound to live for, but it's not my ego existence. I think it's all important to realize This particular ego is an assemblage that has mysteriously held together for a certain length of year,

• 1:16:03Speaker 00

  but it's a tiny instant in the history of this cosmos. From whence we come, whether we go, is a profound mystery.

• 1:16:11Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:12Speaker 00

  My ego can never wrap its way around that, so I don't even try. I simply say it's respected, it's the mystery. The question is, you know, we can die many ways before we die. And you're right, if you don't have some reason to get up in the morning, then you better find it, or it's time to go, you know? I don't mean that in any active way, but to say, you know, it's a summons, to say, what is it that I can still learn? What is it I still have to grow and develop?

• 1:16:41Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:41Speaker 00

  Now, underneath all of that, what distinguishes this animal from the other animals in this world is we suffer the disconnect from meaning. Animals can suffer deprivations and hardships of various kinds, and other predators, let's say. But far as we know, they're not crises of meaning, except sometimes with our domestic animals, like fear of abandonment and so forth. However, we do. And to say, all right, what is the meaningful task for me? You know, one of the most poignant kinds of therapeutic issues is when a person is elderly, maybe is in significant discomfort,

• 1:17:23Speaker 00

  and the loved ones that they have most cared for are gone. And there's a sense of loss and abandonment that is omnipresent. And one then has to say, yes, all of that's been the richness of your life. You suffer that because there was something rich and valuable for you there, and you honor it by carrying it with you. But you also are still here as a living, organic person with your own journey. What more can you learn? What more can you take delight in? And yes, practicing virtues like kindness, if that's one of your values, and it's certainly something that's always spoken to me. The kindness and compassion will get us through this life if we remember it.

• 1:18:08Speaker 00

  And everybody you meet out there is in need of those, whether they pay attention to it or not. It does affect things.

• 1:18:15Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:15Speaker 00

  Being mindful of our place on the planet and not leaving a more troubled planet for our descendants is another, I think, redeeming value as we age. But again, underneath it is, let's not confuse the ego's nervous desire for itself, perpetuation with living a meaningful life.

• 1:18:39Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:39Speaker 00

  You see, that's the infantile part of us. And I don't judge it, I'm just trying to identify.

• 1:18:45Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:46Speaker 00

  Why should you live longer, right? In service to what? Now, that's a healthy question. In service to what? I don't say it's for simply perpetuation of your life. In the long run, that's trivial in the great scheme of the universe, whatever that may be. And it is, though, profoundly important to say, now, what is it you can do? And one thing you can do is be kind to people around you. Pay attention, live with compassion for this world. And when you do that, you know, life takes on a certain flavor that you might have known in the past, but thought was lost forever, and it's never, never lost.

• 1:19:25Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah. Jim, if someone has heard our conversation today and they've had a few lightbulb moments and they've realized that, wait a minute, I'm not actually living a life of meaning. I have not been listening to my psyche and my soul voice. I need to start doing something different. What would your final words of advice be to them?

• 1:19:58Speaker 00

  Well, that's the first step. As you said before, simply to start trying to pay attention to your dreams already begins to change the dynamic within you and the dynamic of your relationship with other people. I would say it's time to recover the innate curiosity that we had as children. Who are you? Who am I? How do we relate to each other? Why am I here? What is my relationship to nature? What is my relationship to other people? What is my relationship to this issue of purpose and meaning?

• 1:20:41Speaker 00

  Those are basic questions. If you live large questions, you live a larger life psycho spiritually.

• 1:20:48Speaker 00

  Simply to be creatures of habituation means, you know, we're well-conditioned. So, my hope for today's conversation to anyone who might be listening or watching is, you know, be curious again. Ask yourself the questions that you asked as childhood and then we forgot to ask them somehow. We got so conditioned to stimulus response in the world out there, we forgot to be curious about life and to say, "All right, what lights my fire still?" What are the curiosities that you had? The interests, the passions you had as childhood? Some of them you can't do now because of physical limitations or cultural issues.

• 1:21:33Speaker 00

  But how can you ignite the spirit within you again? Because, you know, spirit is the energy of our nature. When you're doing what's right for you, the spirit is alive and flame. There is a passion. But remember, passion comes from passio. It means suffering in Latin, you see.

• 1:21:55Speaker 00

  And it might be difficult for you.

• 1:21:59Speaker 00

  You know, I'm post-surgical from some things and I walk a mile a day. Apart from domestic walking, I walk a mile a day, which sounds like no big deal for a lot of people, but at my age and situation, it's a big deal. But it's part of a discipline that says, I'm gonna show up in, not show off, show up in this way because this body isn't finished yet.

• 1:22:26Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:27Speaker 00

  You know, it's nearing its end, right? It has a half, a shelf life, but it's not finished yet and it has to support this marvelous exploration of continuing to learn. My heroes were my teachers when I was young, they still are. And that's why I got identified with learning and teaching. And I don't mean just up in the academic world. I'm talking about the basic things. How does that work? Why is this? Why is that? Why do we say that? Why do we do that? Or where's that coming from in me? See, those are, those are very basic questions. You can't say they're academic, they're very personal questions, but they're the questions we forgot to ask along the way.

• 1:23:11Speaker 00

  We did as children, but we forgot. It's time to remember.

• 1:23:15Rangan Chatterjee?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:16Speaker 00

  The fact that this is a mystery in which we swim. And the more we remember that, the richer this life journey becomes.

• 1:23:26Rangan Chatterjee?

  Jim, it's been such a pleasure to speak to you. I am delighted that you have dedicated your life to teaching and learning and growing. Your new book is Borrowed Dust. I think it's, is that your 20th book now?

• 1:23:41Speaker 00

  Yes, it is.

• 1:23:42Rangan Chatterjee?

  20th book. And if someone is coming to your work for the very first time and is thinking, which out of these 20 books should I buy first? Where would you direct them?

• 1:23:53Speaker 00

  Possibly the one that's titled, and this was the publisher's title, Finding Meaning in the Second Half of Life. It's a pretty generic approach. Another one that I would suggest as a beginning volume is Living an Examined Life, because as Socrates said, the unexamined life is not worth living. Well, why is that the case? Let's begin the examination. So it's full of suggestions about quickening our capacity to examine our lives again, and the richness that flows from that.

• 1:24:26Rangan Chatterjee?

  Jim, thank you so much for making time to speak to me on my show. Thank you for sharing your wisdom, and I very much hope we have the opportunity to talk again at some point in the future.

• 1:24:36Speaker 00

  Thank you, Rangan. It's pleasant to have the conversation with you, I can assure you. Thank you.

• 1:24:44Rangan Chatterjee?

  Really hope you enjoyed that conversation. Do think about one thing that you can take away and apply into your own life. And also have a think about one thing from this conversation that you can teach to somebody else. Remember, when you teach someone, it not only helps them, it also helps you learn and retain the information. Now, before you go, just wanted to let you know about Friday 5. It's my free weekly email containing five simple ideas to improve your health and happiness. In that email, I share exclusive insights that I do not share anywhere else, including health advice, how to manage your time better, interesting articles or videos that I've been consuming, and quotes that have caused

• 1:25:29Rangan Chatterjee?

  me to stop and reflect. And I have to say, in a world of endless emails, it really is delightful that many of you tell me it is one of the only weekly emails that you actively look forward to receiving. So if that sounds like something you would like to receive each and every Friday, you can sign up for free at drchatity.com/friday5. Now, if you are new to my podcast, you may be interested to know that I have written five books that have been bestsellers all over the world, covering all kinds of different topics: happiness, food, stress, sleep, behavior change, and movement, weight loss, and so much more. So please do take a moment to check them out. They are all available as paperbacks, ebooks,

• 1:26:13Rangan Chatterjee?

  and as audiobooks, which I am narrating.

• 1:26:17Rangan Chatterjee?

  If you enjoyed today's episode, it is always appreciated if you can take a moment to share the podcast with your friends and family, or leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Thank you so much for listening. Have a wonderful week. And please note that if you want to listen to this show without any adverts at all, that option is now available for a small monthly fee on Apple and on Android. All you have to do is click the link in the episode notes in your podcast app. And always remember, you are the architect of your own health. Making lifestyle change is always worth it, because when you feel better, you live more.