The Creators of ‘Hacks’ on Comedy, Creative Partnership and Surviving Hollywood

Kara talks with "Hacks" creators and showrunners Lucia Aniello, Paul W. Downs and Jen Statsky about the state of comedy and ending the HBO Max hit on their own terms. The critically-acclaimed series follows Deborah Vance, a legendary Las Vegas stand-up comedian played by Jean Smart, and Ava Daniels, a young TV writer played by Hannah Einbinder, as the pair navigate the many ups and downs of show business. The team discusses Deborah and Ava’s “dark mentorship,” the intimacy of creative partnership and how Hollywood has changed over the show’s five-season run. They also get into the streaming boom-and-bust cycle and whether AI will help or hurt creativity. Plus: the chances of a "Hacks" reboot, and what Ava and Deborah might be facing five years from now. Questions? Comments? Email us at [email protected] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, I like, I love a polycule. You know, they don't have to just be Brooklyn media polycules. There could be Hollywood media.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, they could be Hollywood writing polycules. Oh, yeah, it's very Los Angeles.

• 0:22Kara Swisher?

  Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. My guests today are Jen Statsky, Lucia Aniello, and Paul W. Downs, the creators and showrunners of the series Hacks on HBO Max. Over the course of its run, the critically acclaimed show about Hollywood and the business of comedy has won 12 Emmys, including the prize for Outstanding Comedy Series in 2024. Hacks follows Deborah Vance, a legendary Las Vegas stand-up, played by Jean Smart, and Ava Daniels, a young TV writer, played by Hannah Einbinder. From the moment they first meet, their relationship is complicated, filled with lies, betrayal, blackmail, and reconciliation.

• 1:05Kara Swisher?

  But it grows into a deep and hilarious bond, and the pair forge a creative partnership that turns around both of their careers. Now, after five seasons, Hacks is coming to an end. The series finale airs on May 28. I have long wanted to talk to the people who make Hacks. I think it's one of the best shows on television. I think it's very, very funny, but it's also very deep in terms of how people conduct their relationships at work. It's about people who love their work as much as I do, and what they do to make it fantastic, and what they sacrifice for that. It's really hard about a relationship between two people, a creative relationship, but it's so much more than that. And nobody who works on this show is a hack, but this show is fantastic. We have two expert questions today from actor George Hahn and comedian Nikki Glaser.

• 1:50Kara Swisher?

  This was a great conversation with incredibly creative people, something I want to really lean into over the next couple of episodes. I really am trying to embrace human creativity, not AI-aided human creativity, but just people who make great things. So, stick around. A quick note before we get to the interview. I'm doing a special live episode with guest Marc Maron at the opening of the Tribeca Film Festival podcast stage. It's June 8 at 8:00 PM. Tickets are available now at tribecafilm.com/audio. That's tribecafilm.com/audio.

• 2:28Kara Swisher?

  Support for this show comes from The Guardian and their new show, Stateside, where journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman use the entire independent reporting resources of The Guardian to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what is actually happening in the world. Join Kai and Carter three times a week as they utilize all the reporting resources The Guardian has across news, international coverage, climate, culture, wellness, and more. And The Guardian's not owned by a billionaire, they fearlessly report the facts without interference. Go to theguardian.com/stateside to learn more. And listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube. That's theguardian.com/stateside.

• 3:12Kara Swisher?

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• 3:55Speaker 03

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• 4:44Kara Swisher?

  Jen, Lucia and Paul, thanks for coming on.

• 4:47Speaker 04

  Thanks for having us.

• 4:48Speaker 01

  Thanks for having us.

• 4:49Kara Swisher?

  I am a longtime fan of Hacks from the beginning. And Hacks is a comedy about Hollywood and show business. It's clearly written from a place of experience and love. You pitched it to HBO back in 2019. Can you talk about each of you, how your perspective of Hollywood as show business has changed over the last seven years and how it's reflected in the series? Let's start with Jen and then Lucia and then Paul.

• 5:11Speaker 04

  You know, it's really wild making this show in this seven-year period that we have because we are coming, we are bookending. We pitched the show to, when it had no name, the streaming service was just the Warner Media streaming service. It didn't exist yet. There were very few shows. And now, as we come to the end of our run on HBO Max, what it then became, we, as we all know, are in a situation where the studio is likely going to be bought by Paramount. And so, what is really wild is we have seen this crazy, like, in our time in a, working in Hollywood, this like, peak TV, this explosion, and then this contraction, and this massive

• 5:56Speaker 04

  push to try to compete in the streaming wars, and then the pullback into, no, we'll just consolidate companies and we can't compete that way. So, what's wild is all along, we've just been chugging along, trying to tell this story and make this show as good as we possibly could, but it is not lost on us. And as you see reflected in the show, we do comment on the landscape of television and film and entertainment as we see it changing. So, pretty, it's, yeah, it has been a very, it has not been a calm time in the entertainment industry during the making of Hacks.

• 6:36Kara Swisher?

  For creators.

• 6:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, and for creators.

• 6:39Kara Swisher?

  Lucia?

• 6:40Speaker 05

  It feels a little bit like, you know, when you see a garage door closing and you want to just roll underneath? We feel like we've rolled underneath of the garage door closing of this industry, being able to make a show.

• 6:51Kara Swisher?

  Lucia, I never, I never want to do that, but go ahead. Keep going. You want to get in before it closes, what you're saying.

• 6:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, we feel a little bit that way in terms of being able to make this show, like a comedy that runs five seasons, that they've been very generous with the budget. It does feel a little bit like, you know, when we look behind us at the pipeline, it looks very different than the comedy world we came up in. I mean, we came up kind of in this lower budget Comedy Central world where we really got to explore our vices and get paid to do so. And now, when I look at the younger comedians, I'm just not sure how they could even have the hours or the reps like that I did as a writer-director in the early aughts. And that's really the thing that is the most frightening to me, is just the pipeline

• 7:40Speaker 05

  and being able to get younger writers and directors that experience. I just don't know where that comes from now.

• 7:46Kara Swisher?

  Paul?

• 7:47Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah, not only are Comedy Central originals gone, you know, like Lucia said, the place where we came from, but as late-night shows get canceled, that's another place that, you know, comedy writers cut their teeth and figure out their voice. And as those things go away, it just feels harder and harder to make comedy. You know, we've heard anecdotally, some of our writers who are brilliant have been told by their agents, you know, maybe you guys should, maybe you should write a drama spec. Might be easier to get staffed. So I think not only is there a constricting over all of the industry, but particularly it feels like a crisis in comedy, which are things, you know, that don't always travel

• 8:29Speaker 01

  internationally or don't always have the same legs that some hour-long dramas have. So it does feel like we've really seen a huge amount of change in the time that we've been making this show.

• 8:41Kara Swisher?

  So one of the things you're saying they don't carry internationally in that sort of Netflix has transformed it all, right? The idea of how you make and create shows, essentially.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, very much. I mean, it feels, it feels like you have to have something that...

• 8:55Speaker 01

  You know, is streamed everywhere for a lot of minutes so they can collect their data or whatever it is they do. So yeah, I do think that that's been, even the technology entering this business has been a major disruptor.

• 9:07Kara Swisher?

  And you know, one of the things you were very prescient about is the pressures that companies are under in this environment, correct? The idea, which has changed really quite drastically, as you said, there was this flowering of TV, like, let's make everything because they needed content, content, content into the system, to something that's changed rather dramatically, which is where these companies now are. They're buffeted by political issues and everything else, which you had on very early last year, which of course happened. The thing you wrote happened, essentially. And we're gonna write about world peace next.

• 9:41Speaker 01

  We need people to do things that are more positive.

• 9:44Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, tune in to our next show, Universal Healthcare. Right, yeah, yeah, that's gonna be a real winner. I'm not sure that's happening. But you got to a fifth season, which is a lot of seasons. A lot of things are much shorter, they're limited series. I know everyone I talked to in Hollywood says, you know, limited series is what they want, nothing with too much commitment. Now, as I noted, in season three, Deborah realizes her lifelong dream to become the first woman to host Late Night, but she gives it all up to the end of season four. She tells her audience, quote, "I might be a capitalist pig myself, but first and foremost, I'm a comedian. I care more about making the show the right way than I do making shareholders happy." Now, art and commerce are in tension throughout the series, and Deborah really does embrace commerce, by

• 10:28Kara Swisher?

  the way, very clearly. Talk about this decision, because she was often very much a capitalist pig throughout the series.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I think the one thing we've always tried to repeat in this character is that there's nothing she holds more sacred than her comedy, as much as she is, you know, a capitalist pig, as she says, and someone who's really concerned with, honestly, protecting herself by building her wealth, because she's been somebody who's been cast aside by the industry, she's felt the volatility of the industry, and so she's somebody that, whether it's shilling products on QVC or making shareholders happy in Late Night, she is somebody who, I think, has an understanding of the marketplace and knows that it's a business, you know, it's not regional theater. She knows that she needs to also generate value for the company. But when she's asked to censor herself and to censor her jokes because it might impact the studio's

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Movie that's opening. She says, well, that's one thing that I won't do. I'm not going to censor my jokes and I'm not going to fire my voice just to make shareholders happy. So I do think there is a line for her. I mean, we start the show, the pilot episode is called, There Is No Line, because that's what she says to Ava. There's really no line if you can make a joke funny. But in this, you know, in the end of season four, she says, well, there is a line. And for me, this is it. And it was sort of wishful thinking, you know, it's the thing that you want to have happen in Hollywood, that people don't roll over for corporate greed. But, you know, it hopefully is an optimistic view.

• 11:56Kara Swisher?

  Kimmel is sort of doing that.

• 11:58Speaker 05

  Yeah, Kimmel, I think, is a really interesting figure right now, because I think that everyone can kind of see that this guy isn't just, his rhetoric isn't any, now I'm getting into political stuff, but like, his rhetoric is certainly not as dangerous or aggressive or whatever as just the administration itself. So, so it is interesting that he's kind of this bellwether of free speech at this moment, as well as Colbert, of course. It's, and so when we did have this kind of storyline and Deborah Vance, you know, deciding to say, this is my line, it was also, of course, a very personal choice, because it was about Ava, this girl who she's had a long relationship with over the course of four seasons. So for us, we're always trying to have, you know, like, strike a balance between culture

• 12:43Speaker 05

  and commentary and relationships and character growth and all those things. So that really is just something that we're aiming for at all times. It is a comedy first and foremost, and so we're not trying to like shove our personal, you know, opinions down people's throat, but we do try to weave it into the character's point of view and hopefully in a way that feels satisfying to the audience.

• 13:05Kara Swisher?

  In season four finale, TMZ pronounces Deborah dead also and publishes a pre-written obituary that accuses her of being retired and blames her for killing the whole franchise of late night TV, which was already dying, which is really, that's what the sacrifice is really interesting, because late night TV is already problematic. I was talking to some Trump people and I'm like, why are you doing this? It's already dying. Like, what?

• 13:29Speaker 04

  Right.

• 13:29Kara Swisher?

  Now you're keeping it alive, which is really interesting.

• 13:33Speaker 04

  Right, right. You're having the opposite effect of what you want. The strike hand effect.

• 13:37Kara Swisher?

  Right. Well, that's because Donald Trump lives permanently in 1981, I think. But she decides to focus on establishing her legacy, saying, quote, "I refuse to be remembered on other people's terms." Jen, why don't you answer, what does leaving legacy mean for a comedian? Some comedy is timeless, but it's not like music. A lot of comedy doesn't age well.

• 13:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, this whole final season is very much so about Deborah confronting her legacy and wanting to, as you said, write in on her own terms. And I think for a comedian, like, you're right, it's a little more difficult than music, or because it's topical in commenting on the culture, like, the best comedy speaks truth to power and talks to what's happening in our culture. And so certainly, I think there's some level of challenge there for Deborah, but also I think the work she and Ava have done together in the show has attempted to be timeless and just speaking to her experience and her lived experience as a woman in the industry. And I don't think that that will really age out, for better or worse. I don't think things will progress too much.

• 14:39Speaker 04

  And so therefore, Deborah talking about the challenges she's faced and what she's gone up against, I think will remain relevant for a long time, sadly. But yeah, it's, she's really, you know, as you see in that first episode, when, when she finds that her, her special and the work that she and Ava have done has just been erased, like, there's something so devastating, especially for a character who has been so devoted to her career and so devoted to her work. It is really deeply what she believes she's leaving behind in this world. And so just having that taken away is such a blow to her and makes her realize, like, I need to activate and do something to solidify my legacy in whatever different ways that I can.

• 15:24Kara Swisher?

  Right, or make something else. I mean, when she goes back to her old show, you know, that's a really, I find, very poignant. And remember some of it and not the other, but it's hard for her to do that, presumably.

• 15:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, that show, while was a great career boon for her in many ways, it exposed her to the public, it got her the chance to come close to being the first late night host as a woman way back in the 70s. It's also the, as you see in episode four of this season, a lot of her central trauma came out of a result of that show and her relationship with her then-husband, who she made it with. So it's a complicated thing. And I think it's in exploring that, we see why Deborah has been such a guarded person and why, as Paul said, amassing wealth and amassing things has been to protect herself because she is someone who, so early in life, so early in her career, dealt with this betrayal

• 16:19Speaker 04

  that then turned into this public smearing, that it's a person who really hardened over many years, as many people in the industry do. And only when she meets this person 50 years later, in the form of a young 25-year-old, does she start to crack open. But she amassed many, many years of hardening herself and protecting herself based on what happened.

• 16:44Kara Swisher?

  So, speaking of that, Lucia, Deborah's relationship with Ava, played by Hannah Einbinder, is at the heart of the show. To call it turbulent is an understatement. It's really a love story here. It goes off the rails this season when they visit another comedian, her wife in Montecito. I won't let that go, but finally, thank you for doing that. Lucia, talk about so many breakups, trials and reunions over the Courses series. What brings them back together? They had so many, I don't want to use the word hijinks because that diminishes it, but they had so many. It is like watching a lesbian couple, like in full regalia of, you know, that kind of thing. So can you talk a little bit about their relationship?

• 17:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's been very one step forward, two steps back. There's been litigation, there's been, you know,

• 17:27Kara Swisher?

  Screaming.

• 17:28Speaker 04

  A lot of different power dynamics. But in the end, the thing that keeps them coming back to each other is their spark in terms of writing comedy. And that's something that's very autobiographical for the three of us.

• 17:43Speaker 05

  You know, we've been all writing in this business for 15-ish years now. And, you know, there are just people where you meet them and you're joking around or you're pitching ideas and there's just something special about it. You're funnier around them. You want to be funnier. You want to make them laugh. And that really is what the three of us have. And now that we, and we also share with a lot of our collaborators in making the show, writers and actors. And honestly, true too, but there really is something so special about that. It is like such a turn on in so many ways that it just is. And I think that's maybe why it gets, some lines are blurred in terms of whether it's a sexual relationship or not.

• 18:27Speaker 05

  There just is something really alluring about that. And I mean, hey, I married one, one of them, one of these two, you guess.

• 18:33Kara Swisher?

  That's right. Yeah.

• 18:35Speaker 04

  And, and once polygamy is legal, we're holding out for the third.

• 18:39Kara Swisher?

  I'm so happy for all of you.

• 18:41Speaker 04

  I love a truffle. We're pushing legislation forward.

• 18:43Speaker 05

  Jen, we said we wouldn't get political. We said we wouldn't get political.

• 18:46Kara Swisher?

  I love a truffle.

• 18:47Speaker 04

  Well, that's the one, that's my one cause.

• 18:51Speaker 01

  She did marry us also. She was our officiant. So it's really, talk about, talk about intermingled lives.

• 18:57Speaker 04

  I got as involved in the marriage as I could.

• 18:59Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, I like, I love a polycule. You know, they don't have to just be Brooklyn media polycules. There could be Hollywood media polycules.

• 19:06Speaker 05

  They could be Hollywood writing polycules.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. It's very Los Angeles.

• 19:10Speaker 05

  But it is, there's something really, yes, seductive about it and exciting. And I think that no matter what, they know that they make each other better as, in their comedy, but they also make each other better as people. And whether they like it or not, they've never found anybody else like that.

• 19:24Kara Swisher?

  What would you describe the relationship? Cause it's not mother daughter. It's not sister. It's not romantic, really. It is, but it isn't. Yeah, but it's not, right? It's, it's sort of, it's an interesting, and it's actually quite awkward in that regard. But how would each of you describe their relationship? Why don't you start, Lichi and then Jen and Paul? What would you, if you had a word, what would you say?

• 19:46Speaker 05

  Well, we have referred to it as a dark mentorship, where there is that kind of mentorship, but there is a tinge of toxicity to it. But I do think that that is really more apt for the beginning parts of their relationship. I think as the, as a series progressed, they get to a place where it's not completely toxicless, but it becomes more, something with more heart, so.

• 20:12Kara Swisher?

  Jen?

• 20:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think, I think that the reason it's so hard to define is because it, the intimacy is so inherent to the act of creating with someone. And I think we have more depictions on screen of mother, daughter, of lovers, sister, all these things. So I think sometimes people watch the show and it makes sense that they would use those kind of touchstones to say, oh, is it like that or is it like that? But I think what we, as she was saying before, you know, it's very autobiographical. Obviously not our relationship. It does not have quite the ebbs and flows of theirs, thankfully. But it's autobiographical to the fact of how intimate creating with a person is.

• 20:57Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 20:57Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 20:58Kara Swisher?

  Intimate's the right one.

• 20:58Speaker 04

  And it's, I've never been in a band, but I imagine it, the dynamic the three of us have, I imagine it's a very similar dynamic to bandmates, to people who make music together. Cause it's, you're really so in each other's lives, in each other's brains and souls and skin. And so it makes sense that the way people watch this show, they feel this intimacy between Deborah and Ava. And it feels there, you try to put it on to other things you've seen that kind of intimacy in. So to me, their relationship is just, it is what creative intimacy is.

• 21:38Kara Swisher?

  That's a great way to put it, Paul.

• 21:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I would say they're partners. You know, I think they make work together and so they are partners. But unlike partners at a law firm, you know, or someone who's like in a different line of work, I think, like Jen's saying, because it is generative and also because I feel like in comedy, you know, or in show business, it feels like it has to be a calling more than just a profession because it is a really difficult industry.

• 22:06Kara Swisher?

  Right, work is everything to them.

• 22:07Speaker 01

  It's everything. It is part of their very identity. And so, and that may be true of lawyers who absolutely love the law, but I think they're closer to soulmates than they are just work partners because of the, the fact that they are creating together. It is like, you know, when they put out a special into the world, even though Ava's not in front of the camera and, or behind the mic. It's a baby of hers. So it's, you know, I do think that

• 22:31Kara Swisher?

  Right, right.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  They are very much partners.

• 22:34Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, it's really interesting. I actually, there's now shades of it in Devil Wears Prada 2. You're starting to see their relationship very much evolve in that regard, which is interesting. It's a different kind of relationship. But Paul, there's also a loyal team of support staff behind Deborah Vance Industries, including her manager Jimmy, played by you, her business manager turned friend Marcus, and estate manager Josefina, everybody, actually. What do you want to explore about the dynamics? Because the staff is very important here. They're very critical people in this.

• 23:02Speaker 01

  Very much. I mean, I think when we first pitched the show, we, when we were talking about the character study of this kind of a person, the people that are in her orbit, oftentimes who are on their payroll, but are also very intimately involved in their lives and in some ways become their family, we knew that that was going to be a big part of the show, exploring the ecosystem around a person like Deborah Vance. You know, I think these are the people that, when you're really closed off to the world, know more about you. They're the people that go to your birthday if you have a party. I don't know that Deborah does, but, and so I think it was just a very important facet of understanding somebody like this and the people that they do keep close.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  And then, of course, you know, her, her manager Jimmy is the glue that holds them all together. You know, I mean, he's the one that really keeps the ship moving.

• 23:52Kara Swisher?

  Critical, critical.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, actually.

• 23:54Kara Swisher?

  It should be called Jimmy. The whole show should be.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  I appreciate that. Here's Jimmy. Yeah, I think, I mean, we did, it was funny because we did think, how do we get these two very different people from different generations together? And so it did make sense that this manager who would have inherited someone like Deborah from his father, who was a manager, and this young writer that he discovered and represents, he would be sort of the person to put them together. And so it was a really important part of the inciting incident for the show, for the premise of the show. But as Debra and Ava have helped each other redeem their careers. Obviously, his role becomes more and more important.

• 24:37Kara Swisher?

  Right, and the entire staff, too.

• 24:39Speaker 01

  Oh, yes, yes, that's right.

• 24:41Kara Swisher?

  All of them have some aspect to it because a lot of, sometimes it's always played by, you know, in Hollywood, people that just say yes, or PR people, or whatever. But in this case, it's a very, it's almost a family-like, an unusual family, I suppose.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  It is, it is a bizarro family. And as Debra says to Ava, she doesn't need a yes man. She needs a no woman to ignore. So I do think there's a lot of no people to ignore that surround her.

• 25:07Speaker 04

  We also, in speaking about Jimmy and Kayla and Randy now, played by Robbie Hoffman, we wanted to also, as you said, it's a portrayal of the entertainment industry. And we wanted to portray this side of the entertainment industry that we felt had been a little bit underexplored, which is people who represent artists and manage them and agent them and actually the version of that. You know, there's the entourage version, there's the, that version. But we hadn't really seen, I think, a version of the people that are instrumental to helping artists make their work and getting it out there. And so I think one thing that we're happy about is portraying representatives in the

• 25:48Speaker 04

  entertainment industry who actually are doing it for the right reasons and not necessarily trying to just profit off of other people's hard work because there are certainly lots of those as well.

• 26:00Kara Swisher?

  Absolutely, the entourage version, the bad version. I like how you put that, slipped that in there.

• 26:05Speaker 04

  It's just a different, I think Ari Gold had a whole, Ari Gold and Jimmy LaSack Jr. are just different guys, let's put it that way.

• 26:14Kara Swisher?

  Yes, very much so.

• 26:15Speaker 04

  They just have a different way of doing business.

• 26:17Kara Swisher?

  Yes, although I'm sad to report that Ari Emanuel is exactly like that. Anyway, I have on my phone, I said something on my podcast, I know him really well, and I declined to sign with him. And at one point, I said something about him and he just sent me a message on my voicemail, fuck you, Kara Swisher, fuck you, and by the way, fuck you. And I was like, I just kept it and I replay it.

• 26:38Speaker 04

  Oh, my God.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  That's iconic, you do need that.

• 26:43Kara Swisher?

  I do need to keep it for all eternity. He has very nice siblings, though, who are much better than he is. Anyway, every episode, we get a question. Well, there's one that's OK. There's one that's fantastic. Every episode, we get a question. I'm not gonna say which one, from an outside expert. Today, we have two. Here's the first.

• 27:00Speaker 06

  Hi, guys. George Hahn here, friend of Kara's, writer, podcaster, actor, among other things. And 12 years ago, for a few months before she died, I had the privilege of doing social media for Joan Rivers, writing and creating content for her Instagram and Facebook accounts. Clearly, the character of Deborah Vance drew a lot of inspiration from Joan, down to the way she looked. Also, like Joan, Deborah is a highly successful woman in a real boys' club, a real baller, if you will, and a virtual industry unto herself. Now Joan famously broke ground as a late-night host, only to have the NBC door slammed on her by Johnny Carson

• 27:42Speaker 06

  after she got her own show on Fox, even though it was short-lived. Decades later, Joan remains one of the only female hosts of her own late-night network talk show. I think it was a wound that never fully healed. Deborah Vance carries a similar wound. My question: Was that rupture the cost of female ambition in a male-dominated industry? Was that always going to be at the core of the show? And how striking is it to you that 40 years later, Joan remains one of the only women to do it? Thanks. Big fan.

• 28:23Kara Swisher?

  There have been a few other women hosts, but that was sort of the iconic one. Paul, you go first, then Lucia and Jen.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, you're right. There have been other women that host late night, but none like Deborah Vance this season. Or even like Joan. Even Joan, I believe, wasn't at that 1130, even though it was, you know, on a major network. So I think that is the one thing that distinguishes what Joan did and what Deborah does, which is they're on a legacy network at that prime-time slot, which has always been. Male dominated. And I do wish, you know, we were talking earlier about how we were a little bit predictive in terms of what has happened with Colbert and with Kim. I wish we had predicted a woman taking the chair at one of these major networks. But yes, that was always part of the pitch of the show. When we pitched the show, we talked

• 29:12Speaker 01

  about this being a woman. And we talked a little bit about this today, about how comedy doesn't always age well. And so we talked about watching comedians who are oftentimes very progressive and forward thinking. Someone like Deborah, who had this sort of progressive sitcom about the woman being the breadwinner and flipping the gender roles. And then she was offered this late night show, but because of sort of a public scandal and her very tumultuous divorce, all of that was taken away. And she atrophied. She leaned into the being a joke. She actually made her mint because she realized she hit a vein when she started making herself out to be the crazy person, the loony lady. So we

• 29:53Speaker 01

  always talked about how you can become different than you originated and how we wanted Ava to be the person that gets her back into that sort of more authentic, more progressive kind of comedy, which would be the thing that lets her get a late night show again. And we always also said that it was going to be something that was a chapter in the story. And we weren't going to watch the making of a late night show because we weren't interested in the behind the scenes for more than one season. But yeah, that was

• 30:19Kara Swisher?

  No, the lunches, the lunches were all you needed.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:22Kara Swisher?

  I experienced that once.

• 30:24Speaker 01

  Yes, you get it. But yeah, it was very much a part of the initial pitch for the show.

• 30:29Speaker 05

  Yeah, it does feel like even though, like Paul's saying, Deborah's core trauma is a little bit more connected to her husband leaving her for her sister around the time of the late night. But I think what George was saying is true, that there is the central trauma for both of them really is they both were as good as their male contemporaries, but never got to have the same career. That is essentially what the problem is for both of them. And so what they both had to do is kind of carve out these new niches of a career, slightly outside of the like, kind of traditional comedian path that all their male counterparts got to have. And so that is something that I think

• 31:12Speaker 05

  Created the characters they became. And it's interesting now, like, I think, you know, I don't think that female comedians have quite the same barriers, but I do still feel like if there was going to be another late night show, I don't know if a woman would still get that chair. And so it's interesting that now there are so many, the gatekeepers, you know, now with the internet, comedy gatekeepers are a whole other thing. So now there are so many women and men, and but especially, and also a lot of queer comedians creating these new avenues of performing, whether it's podcasts or front-facing videos. But now, a lot of people are having to create careers outside of like, the traditional paths,

• 31:55Speaker 05

  which would have been really interesting if, if Joan or Deborah would be a young comedian, comedienne today, if that is something they would have had to pursue.

• 32:05Kara Swisher?

  Jen?

• 32:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, exactly what Lucia was saying. It's, it's kind of, you know, and to his question about existing in the boys' club, like, that is very much so what Deborah faced, in the sense that, in the real world, too, that what the boys' club means is that the, the pipeline is only open to the type of people that the pipeline lets in. And for so, so long, in comedy and in entertainment, it was essentially straight, white cis men. And that was, you know, and everyone else, maybe they would get let in, but especially, as you see with Deborah, one wrong move and the press jumps on it, and she's kind of destroyed, and that pipeline closes to her, and then she has to figure out other ways to make her career.

• 32:49Speaker 04

  And so we were very interested, as we, you know, we talked a lot, this show, in the beginning, about just women whose stories we got wrong, women like a Britney Spears or a Marsha Clark during the OJ trial, women who the, the public, the media jumped on and made a joke and told a certain story, and only years later have we looked back and gone, wait a second, that was a completely unfair portrayal, and it's just not the way we would have jumped on a man who did the same thing.

• 33:20Kara Swisher?

  Monica Lewinsky is another one.

• 33:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, Monica Lewinsky, another person we talked about a lot.

• 33:28Speaker 04

  We'll be back in a minute.

• 33:42Kara Swisher?

  Support for this show comes from The Guardian. Trying to locate news sources that reliably separate fact from fiction can seem like looking for a needle in a haystack these days. Social media feeds, cable news, and subscription-based news outlets might be able to give you one version of the news, but not in the way that you need. You want news fast, but slow enough to actually absorb the information. Stateside with Kai Wright and Carter Sherman is here to do just that. The podcast tries to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions regarding the world at large at your own pace. Three times a week, hosts Kai Wright and Carter Sherman bring their expertise together to showcase different and engaging perspectives regarding the world today. They will use their collective knowledge to discuss the news, international affairs,

• 34:25Kara Swisher?

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• 34:45Speaker 07

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• 35:16Kara Swisher?

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• 35:59Kara Swisher?

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• 36:23Kara Swisher?

  So let's talk about how the three of you collaborate. You all did sketch and improv, and later moved to LA and worked together on Broad City. You touched on this earlier, but Jen, talk about the experience of being in the writers' room on Broad City. As you noted, similar opportunities don't exist as much for young comedy writers. They're else they've been severely limited comparatively.

• 36:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, you know, Comedy Central at that time was such a wonderful place because there was a chance to take a risk on people who hadn't made TV before, who hadn't necessarily gone through the pipeline. And so, you know, I came, Paul Nocchio worked on Broad City since season one. I came on in season two. And I remember just being so excited that these two people, Abby Jacobson and Alana Glazer, were given a platform and given a show because they were so funny, so smart, so unique. Their relationship was so lightning in a bottle. And what's nice is like that just doesn't exist

• 37:28Speaker 04

  in a straight pipeline of like all the people that usually get a chance. And so it was just extremely exciting to work on that show because it felt like just such a runaway chance that was being given to them. And it obviously culturally hit upon something that people really, really responded to. So for me, and Paul and she were there much more than I was, but like for me, I look back at that as just such a

• 37:56Kara Swisher?

  Important moment in comedy because it was this time when we were giving new voices a chance and giving people who didn't benefit from the typical pipeline a chance. Lutia?

• 38:06Speaker 05

  Yeah, like, I think also one thing that was really fun about it is that there were no real grownups. Like, in a lot of, like, comedy rooms now, even if you do get one of those jobs, which is amazing, it's kind of like, and here's a higher level person, and here's this person, here's a showrunner. You know, Abby and Alana were the showrunners, Paul and I were there, like Jen said, from the beginning through all the way through season five, and it was an incredibly small room. So what was really cool about it was that we got to, like, figure it out together. And I think that is kind of reflected in the show that you see, which is like, it feels different because it was different. And so we all really got to figure it out together and make something that we felt was fresh and unique and specific to that time of the teen, late teens in New York City.

• 38:51Speaker 05

  And it was a really, yeah, magical time to be creating something. And like Jen's saying, like, from that era, you had, like, Key and Peele and Schumer and the Detroiters and, like, all these people who've gone on to make great, amazing work. And now you're looking at, you know, where's the next Jordan Peele coming from? I don't know.

• 39:12Kara Swisher?

  Right, as you think about it. Now, Paul, you view Hacks as a show that's, quote, "showbiz-adjacent." Ava and Deborah living in exile in Las Vegas, even when they get to Los Angeles for Late Night, they're still outcasts in a lot of ways. Talk about that outcast, because that's what, like, she was just talking about, outcast perspective, bring to the show about Hollywood and the industry you don't get from shows like The Studio, which is delightful, but has a very insider/studio exec point of view.

• 39:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, hopefully, that's one of the things that makes it feel accessible, whether you're in the industry or not, is that everybody knows what it's like to be on the outside looking in, and everybody knows what it feels like to be, to suffer an indignity and want to say, like Jen said before, "No, you got me wrong. You don't really see me." And so it was important to us to tell that story because it's what would happen to a character like Deborah Vance. I mean, it was, it's central to the DNA of the show. But as we talked about, it's also central to all the characters. All the characters are people that don't quite fit in. I mean, Jimmy and Kayla have to leave their agency because it's, like, very... Bro-y and they're just not, they just don't really fit there. So they go out on their own, for better or worse, and try and, you know, create their own management firm.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  And I think that's true of really anybody in the show. They have to really work outside the system. DJ, certainly. Even Marcus, who, you know, started as a fan and made merch for Deborah and then became sort of like her CEO of her product empire. Even he has to figure out ways to carve his own path. So that was something that, you know, we really, you know, wanted to make central to the show.

• 40:50Kara Swisher?

  Right, that they don't belong anywhere. So another question about your collaboration. Here's a second expert question. This one's from comedian Nikki Glaser.

• 40:59Speaker 08

  I'm such a huge fan of hacks. I think it's not only one of the best and funniest TV shows on TV right now, but really of all time. It is such a joy to watch every week. The joke writing is impeccable. I was wondering about the joke writing. I'm wondering how much of that happens on set? How much do you guys play around? How much improv is there? And then I'm also wondering of whose story arc or what character has changed the most in terms of what you wrote in the initial pilot? What are we seeing now that you would have never predicted when you first started writing the show? So that's it. Thank you so much. I can't wait for what's next on the show. The season has been incredible. And please do a Jimmy spinoff.

• 41:40Speaker 01

  Thanks, Nikki.

• 41:41Speaker 05

  Love Nikki.

• 41:42Kara Swisher?

  Thanks, Nikki.

• 41:43Speaker 05

  Remember she used to have a show, Nikki and Sarah, with Sarah Schaefer?

• 41:46Speaker 08

  Yes.

• 41:47Speaker 05

  On MTV?

• 41:47Speaker 08

  Yeah, yeah.

• 41:49Kara Swisher?

  Paul, why don't you start since she seems to want a Jimmy show?

• 41:52Speaker 01

  Oh, well, that's sweet. And I, she is so funny. I'm such a fan of hers, too. And have been for a long time. She's really been grinding for a long time. And she's, talk about expert joke writer. My god, she's so good. But yeah, we, so we write a lot of the jokes on set, but we write, obviously, as many jokes as we can. And we're all about sort of jokes per minute on the show. We really wanted to be funny first. Luckily, our cheat code is that it's a show about a stand-up comedian. So they talk in set-up punchline form often. So not only do we write a lot of jokes into the script, but then our writers' room will give us a ton of alts for every single joke. We'll go through and highlight things and say, do we have anything that can beat this? And so on the day, we have sort of a wealth of alts to go through. And then I think one of the things that...

• 42:37Speaker 01

  Is the most fun for us, for the three of us, is we try and keep it very alive. We try on the day to also find things, to pitch things to the actors, to let them ad lib and improvise if they care to. I will say that myself and Meg probably improvise the most. We probably do riff more than anybody else. But yeah, it's even, even in the, you know, the editing of the show, once we get into the edit, there's oftentimes ADR lines that we'll add to fit another joke in. So the, the writing process in terms of the joke writing never stops, really, from beginning to end.

• 43:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, exactly what Paul said, the joke writing is pretty relentless and we're all insane about trying to make sure we beat every joke until we feel good about it. And yeah, in terms of like what characters and the storyline that you couldn't have predicted where it went, I mean, there's so much of this show that we really did plot out since the beginning that we kind of, we knew that Deborah and Ava would be such a, you know, the backbone of the show, that this show lived and died by the relationship between them. But I'll just speak for myself, like, I don't think in the, you know, we obviously, the character of Jimmy was written for Paul, but the unique comedic chemistry

• 43:56Speaker 04

  between Paul and Meg Stalter, I don't think we could have predicted that. Like, it's a thing where had we cast someone as Kayla and it been like, oh, she's fine, I think that would have just kind of been like, you know, a side character, whatever. But Paul and Meg have such like magic on screen together and are such gifted comedians and then just had this like kismet thing when they came together. So for us, that was something then that it was like, oh, we need to like also explore that relationship, which is, I'm so proud of the way the Jimmy Kayla relationship as a twosome has evolved on a parallel track to Ava and Deborah throughout the season. But that was really a joy in casting and

• 44:40Speaker 04

  finding this kind of incredible comedic duo that if you don't have that chemistry between two people, you, you can't really write to it.

• 44:49Kara Swisher?

  Now, let me just note, you also have said that when you pitched the show, you had a clear vision of what it was going to be down to the ideal number of seasons, the final scene. Now, you've all since confirmed there's a new project in early development in HBO and it seems like. It could be a Hacks reboot. You put out a statement, said, "Right now, we feel good about going out without overstaying our welcome, but you won't have to twist my arm." What has changed? How do you feel about that?

• 45:15Speaker 05

  I still feel pretty much the same. I think right now, we're going through kind of an intense grief period because the show is ending. And like we were saying before, we really genuinely like love making the show with all these people. And as try as we might, unless it was literally Hacks, we can't ever get the exact same people back in the same way. So we're really grieving. We're really like, it's sad that we won't be able to see all these people again. And so part of me is like, yeah, well, what if the show does suck, but we get to keep making it? At least we get to be together. That's part of me feels that way. But we also, I think, do feel that the quality of the show is so important to us. And we always want people to feel like every season is necessary

• 45:58Speaker 05

  and important. So the truth is, is I don't believe that there should be any more Hacks, even though there's nothing I would want more.

• 46:06Kara Swisher?

  I got it. Anyone else? Paul?

• 46:08Speaker 01

  You know, I think Lucia's right there. It's so hard to say goodbye to these characters because we could work with, we would work with any of the actors from the cast in a heartbeat. And I hope we do. But like Lucia said, the alchemy of all of them together will never be the same. And that was the thing that is one of the greatest joys of making the show. And actually, I know we talked a lot about Jimmy and Caleb being something that expanded as the show went on. And even though we pitched, you know, the final episode of the show, we never would have predicted that we would have had Lauren Weedman as Mayor Joe Pesamonte back in every single season, or Polly Draper as Diana Deborah Psychic back in every single season. There were so many people that we were, it was

• 46:51Speaker 01

  the greatest privilege to let these comedians and actors shine and come back and do more. That was like the best part of making the show. And so, you know,

• 47:01Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, the mayor.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, the mayor, the psychic. I'm trying to think, there's plenty more that we just continue to have.

• 47:07Speaker 05

  Johnny Sibley as Wilson.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  Johnny Sibley as Wilson.

• 47:09Speaker 05

  That was really only supposed to be one season, and we kept having him back.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  We'll be back in a minute.

• 47:27Kara Swisher?

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• 48:12Kara Swisher?

  to help get your job the premium status it deserves at indeed.com/podcast. Just go to indeed.com/podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. That's indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need the right hire fast? Then this is the job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs.

• 48:38Speaker 03

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• 50:00Kara Swisher?

  I want to finish up talking about the business of Hollywood because right now, as you said, it's a really disrupted place. It's been disrupted for a while, but it continues to be so. There's a moment in season three when Jimmy tells Ava, now people are only looking for shows that already exist with one tiny tweak or a huge global hits. And Jen, you said you feel lucky to be making comedy today. And Ava has a similar problem, you know, trying to get a show going, even though they find her very successful, they keep, you know, that somewhat idiotic studio executive sort of changes pitch, oh, this is great, but no, but yes. Now you pitched Hacks back in 2019, as I noted. Is there anything you do differently if you pitched it today? Any of you?

• 50:43Speaker 04

  I think the truth is no, you know? And I think that that speaks to the only way that a creative person can withstand all the insanity in this business, which is that I, unless you guys disagree, like I think we would pitch the same show because the truth is if you try to write towards what you think someone wants or what you think the business model is, it's not going to work because it, it changes so fast. And so for us, I think we would pitch the same show. We would still just be like, this is, you know, we always said about Hacks before we pitched it, we really want to watch this. This is a show we would love to watch. And so we would just pitch till today, the show that we would want to see and we would want to make. And

• 51:27Speaker 04

  It's pretty wild because we pitched it in a time where there was this huge desire for content. And as we said, the idea was, oh, we'll all compete with Netflix and they'll be, you know, it's this arms race of streamers. And now it's a totally different world. But for creatives, like, what can you do but make sure your story is one you think is worth telling and tell it the best you can?

• 51:50Kara Swisher?

  But there are still external sources. President Trump has renewed his fight with Jimmy Kimmel, for example, and I'm sure would be fighting with Deborah tooth and nail if this was the case. Oh.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  I can't, I can't imagine the names he'd have for Deborah. I can't even imagine.

• 52:02Kara Swisher?

  Vance. Try, try. Let's think. With the names. Well, except JD, that would be a problem. The FCC has ordered the review of all station licenses, for example, owned by ABC. Sherman Brendan Carr, who I call Brenda is a moron, said last week, quote, "This action is driven by investigation into DEI conduct, not speech at all." Again, a moron. You don't have to call him that. I do all the time. I'm doing an entire show called Brendan Carr is a moron this week. Lucia, a lot of the comedy bros got on the Trump train in part because they thought wokeness was killing free speech in comedy. It's obvious at this point that they never cared about free speech and some of them are

• 52:44Kara Swisher?

  regretting their MAGA move. But nonetheless, what's your take on the, is that affecting things? Because that was a real thing for a minute and a half in comedy, even if they're trying desperately to row in the opposite direction.

• 52:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, you know, I think that it's so, of course, ironic that the people who are saying, we can't see any, you can't say anything anymore, all the guys who have microphones. It's like, what do you think you're doing? You're talking more than anybody. It's like so, yes, these are not, these are not people who I believe, I think they're either dumb or evil. And I don't know which sometime, it depends on each one. It seems like a lot of them are both. They're like dumb with a evil rising. But in any case, yeah, it's, you know.

• 53:29Speaker 05

  Listen, it's like, I could go off for a very long time, you know, just people. And now, of course, so many people are saying, these comedians are saying, you know, oh, yeah, I didn't think that this is what he would do. And it's literally exactly what he said he would do. But I don't think that was actually your question. I think your question is maybe more how it was seeping into actual

• 53:47Kara Swisher?

  Yes, yeah.

• 53:48Speaker 05

  the comedy industry. Yeah, I mean, listen, we aren't people who are really interacting with people who are maybe more conservative comedians or the like. So I don't think it feels like anybody we know is like trying to pitch things that feel more middle America. Though that is something in general that like you do hear out there. Like, we don't want coastal comedy. And while I do understand that there are a lot of shows set in New York and LA, because that's where a lot of comedy writers are, I can understand something about having a diversity of class on television. That is something that I do think is a bit missing. I think when you look at like, who is writing all the comedy or these shows, it tends to be people with a certain education level who come from a certain kind of, you

• 54:32Speaker 05

  know, socioeconomic background. So even though I don't believe in any way that it's like, oh, we aren't making shows for this demographic or that, like, I can understand there's something about people in general feeling like there's a certain kind of only Harvard Lampoon tone out in the world or something. So

• 54:49Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 54:49Speaker 05

  Not that any of us were a Lampoon, we weren't.

• 54:52Kara Swisher?

  Okay, all right. Anyone else about this? When you look at this happening, does it affect your work? Because it's a topic on your show.

• 54:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's interesting. It affects our work in the sense that we, as you've seen, want to speak to it, want to portray it, want to not ignore it. I will say, like, we have been very lucky in our dealings with, you know, HBO. And no one has ever been anything but incredibly creatively supportive of us, which I think is just in general, kind of the way HBO and HBO Max has always been seen and always operated. The executives there are people who Deeply love storytelling and storytellers and support them. And so we've been really lucky in that sense. But of course, we look across the industry and we look at what's happening over at, you know, The Late Show and what happened with Kimmel.

• 55:44Speaker 04

  And like, we see that it's not always so, the water's not always so warm for creatives. And so while we haven't personally like dealt with anything like that, we are very aware of how it is in the atmosphere right now. And yeah, what we try to do is support our fellow comedians as best we can when that stuff happens.

• 56:08Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. So Paul, in that regard, though, 2019 is very different than 2026. And Hollywood, as you noted, has experienced a huge contraction after a surge of these streaming war-driven investment. Paramount's planned acquisition of Warner Brothers is the latest merger in the wave of consolidation of Hollywood. And across the broader entertainment industry, they will own HBO. Are you worried about that? Are you experiencing the effects of consolidation you work right now? Do you think about it as you pitch and develop new projects? Or just this, we're going to just pitch the way we pitch?

• 56:40Speaker 01

  You know, I don't know that it's affecting the way that we pitch or the way that we work, but it's of course concerning. There's less places to sell to. The marketplace is changing a great deal. And also, you know, it's hard to predict what the future will be because it looks so different than it did in 2019. I think our hope is that, because even at HBO and HBO Max, you know, under Warner Media, there have been so many regime changes in just the time that we've been there. It's felt like sort of the common wisdom is leave HBO alone. Let Casey Bloys do what Casey Bloys does. If it's not broke, don't fix it. And I really hope that that's the case because like Jen and Chi were saying,

• 57:20Speaker 01

  we have felt such great support creatively in terms of what we've wanted to make and what we've wanted to say, even things that could maybe brush up against things that in the media landscape, you know, they might say, well, is that about us? Even though it isn't necessarily, they've just been like. Make the show you want to make. So I hope that that is what happens because we really love the people that we've worked with. But yeah, I think everyone has a level. There's like an undercurrent of anxiety for everybody. That it's like, what will this mean?

• 57:52Kara Swisher?

  Well, especially because these are tech owners.

• 57:53Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 57:54Kara Swisher?

  These are tech owners. They don't have any sense of humor, in case you're interested.

• 57:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. And also like their need for growth, not just profit, but growing profit is really scary because it's like, you know, an industry that for a century was profitable, that creatives and executives alike made money. They made a profit. Did that profit grow every single year? I don't know.

• 58:16Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, it's a very different.

• 58:19Speaker 01

  But it's now it's about...

• 58:20Kara Swisher?

  These are different cats.

• 58:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, very different.

• 58:22Kara Swisher?

  You'll be wishing for the Tony Goldwyn characters soon enough.

• 58:25Speaker 01

  I know. As villainous as he can act like, because he is very not that in real life.

• 58:31Kara Swisher?

  Lovely guy.

• 58:32Speaker 01

  Lovely, lovely, lovely person and excellent actor. I do think it's like, he's nothing compared to what, you know, we could be up against.

• 58:40Kara Swisher?

  What's coming down? I can tell you, I know your new owners quite well.

• 58:44Speaker 01

  Hello.

• 58:45Kara Swisher?

  I'll be leaving CNN. That's how I'll have to tell you if I'm publicly said I'm leaving CNN because of it. I just don't care to spend time with them. Anyway, life's too short for me and I have too many options. Anyway, Hollywood people have less options, unfortunately. So let's, speaking of that, end up, we have two more questions on tech in the future because it's impossible not to do a interview without talking about AI at any point in anything we do now. But in a recent New York Times opinion essay, author Colson Whitehead, amazing author, wrote about AI saying, if you use it for your art, you're a freaking hack. AI tools are often pitched to artists as a way to help them enhance and refine their work. It's already being used, obviously, in film production. Sometimes it's fine. Jen, you directed an episode this season that focuses on AI, how it's being used in

• 59:28Kara Swisher?

  the industry without giving too much away. How do you look at it when you think about this growing trend?

• 59:35Speaker 04

  I mean, I think that, I'm clapping for what Colson Whitehead said. I'm saying, yes, we agree very much that if you use it in your work, you're a hack. That is very much the point. Of the episode that we did, you know, I'm not an AI expert. I cannot speak to it in medicine or other industries. But the general sense that we have is really scary that tech is always trying to replace humans and replace humans with this technology in all industries. And that is certainly not what we need, especially not in this country when we can't provide healthcare for people and can't, and people can't make a living wage. But then in terms of the creative industry, that I can speak to because that I've done for a very long time.

• 1:00:20Speaker 04

  And there's just no need to push this technology on us. It's not going to make things better. The, the, the way we have told stories, we've figured that out. As Deborah says in the episode, we don't need to optimize it. There's this constant push of tech to optimize, optimize, optimize.

• 1:00:37Kara Swisher?

  Optimizes their fame at work.

• 1:00:38Speaker 04

  And, and, and to what end? If you remove all the friction, if you remove all the grist in life, you're left with nothing. And that's very true about the creative process. That, that is what this show has said for many years. The grist and the struggle and the friction is part of the process. It's what makes art good. Without that friction, without that grist, it's a different thing. And you don't want that because I promise you, all the art that you've enjoyed for centuries now, artists had to deal with that grist. They had to deal with that friction. They had to question things. They had to feel insecure about it. They had to explore 8,000 different ways to go about it. They didn't go to a, type in a prompt of what would be the best way for this character

• 1:01:23Speaker 04

  to get out of this. Like the, it's just, I'm telling you, the friction and the grist is, it is necessary part of the process and it should not be removed.

• 1:01:33Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. It's seamless is one of their other, let's make it seamless. I'm like, how about we don't?

• 1:01:38Speaker 04

  It's not supposed to be seamless. Let's see the seams.

• 1:01:41Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:01:43Kara Swisher?

  All right. So I have one more question. Taking a step back, Hacks follows a long tradition of movies and shows about making movies and shows from Eight and a Half to The Player. The Larry Sanders Show, oh, what a classic 30 Rock, the aforementioned Andrade. Now Hollywood's in trouble. We're seeing this in the stories that Hollywood tells about itself. Let's push forward five years. If you're making a hacks reboot in 2031, what are Deborah and Abe are going to be dealing with? Lucia, you go first, then Jen, then Paul, you get the last word.

• 1:02:13Speaker 05

  God, I don't know. Obviously, I mean, I'm not a psychic, but I wonder if they want to start just making stuff on their own. I feel like that's where we came from. You know, Paul and I started making videos for YouTube. That's how our career started. And Jen and I actually met in a sketch group where we made videos as well. So I don't know where the industry goes, but I could say I think that it would be fun to watch them pick up a camera and start making an independent film or something like that. It could be fun because, you know, as you're saying, the industry is kind of, I don't think, a lot of people are very doomsday about it. I'm actually not, to be honest with you.

• 1:02:54Speaker 05

  I just feel that people are constantly wanting to watch media. And yes, I think the internet and YouTube is taking a big bite out of that, but I still believe that people get love being lost in stories. And I don't believe that's ending anytime soon. So I, but I do think that we're still figuring out ways to access those stories, to make those stories. But I do think the two of them figuring out they want to, they want to tell a story and figuring out how to do it themselves would be fun to watch. And then they could figure out distribution.

• 1:03:24Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, yeah. Jen?

• 1:03:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think I'll piggyback on Lucia's and say that probably as the, as things with gatekeepers get more and more consolidated, they're going to look outside of that system to, to make their work. And so maybe, maybe the reboot starts with Deborah having the world's biggest yard sale of all her antiques and artwork.

• 1:03:48Kara Swisher?

  I like that.

• 1:03:48Speaker 04

  Because they are trying to fund, they're trying to fund their projects and that's where we find them in.

• 1:03:55Kara Swisher?

  A live Citizen Kane, right?

• 1:03:57Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:04:00Kara Swisher?

  What is this sled here?

• 1:04:03Speaker 05

  That's a pepper shaker. That's her pepper.

• 1:04:05Kara Swisher?

  Oh, the pepper shakers. Oh, my God, the pepper shakers. Paul, you get the last word.

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  Oh, well, you know. The three of us were at a fundraiser where we saw Sarah McBride speak. And she was talking about how-

• 1:04:18Kara Swisher?

  She's amazing. I just was with her.

• 1:04:20Speaker 01

  She's amazing.

• 1:04:20Speaker 04

  She's incredible.

• 1:04:22Speaker 01

  I mean, and how charismatic and how it was so helpful to get a little jolt of hope in a time that seems very bleak, because she talked about how, over the course of history, you know, it feels like this is the end of time so much. And she was saying that it felt even worse before the New Deal. It felt even worse before civil rights movement. It felt even worse before women had the right to vote. And the suffragettes had tried and tried and tried and tried and tried and were failing. So it's been a long time that people have felt this way. And you have to maintain your hope. And I don't want to contradict that. But I think I'm like, maybe, maybe, maybe the reboot starts in Deborah's bunker in New Zealand. And Ava's like, we have to get out and fight.

• 1:05:07Speaker 01

  We have to fight the robots for water. We have to do that. Because it's, even though, even though it has seemed bleak and has probably-

• 1:05:15Kara Swisher?

  Robots don't drink water, but go ahead.

• 1:05:17Speaker 01

  You're right. They needed to cool their data-

• 1:05:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, they use it for coolant.

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  That's right. So I don't know. I think, I think it's just, unfortunately, it seems like even though there have been many times in history when we said the end is near, this is a time where we're like, but really, though, this is, this is it, right? So I don't know. And in 2031, I think Ava's, you know, hopefully revolutionizing Deborah and having her use her arsenal of wealth to keep humanity alive in some way.

• 1:05:45Kara Swisher?

  All right. I think we'll end on that note. Anyway, thank you so much. It's a wonderful series and you've made a beautiful piece of art, really.

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 1:05:54Speaker 04

  That means a lot coming from you. Thank you.

• 1:06:02Kara Swisher?

  Today's show was produced by Christian Castro-Vassell, Michelle Aloy, Catherine Millsop, Megan Burney, and Kalen Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Madeleine LePlante-Duby, Sam Lee, and Julia Sharp Levine. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Rick Kwan. And our theme music is by Track academics. If you're already fond of the show, you're a no woman, but to be ignored. If not, you're Bob Lipka. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.

• 1:06:47Speaker 03

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