Miranda Is Not the Villain, with The Devil Wears Prada 2’s Writer & Director

The Devil Wears Prada 2 is a cultural event 20 years in the making — and it doesn’t disappoint. Kara invites screenwriter Aline Brosh McKenna and director David Frankel to discuss the film, its making, and the state of media and Hollywood today. Aline and David talk about why they waited so long to revisit the world of The Devil Wears Prada, how the media business has changed in the interim, and how the films have shaped the public’s understanding of women, ambition, and power. The trio also discuss Kara’s fashion sense (she has a cameo, as herself, of course), AI’s effect on filmmakers, and why bad behavior is so fun to watch. Questions? Comments? Email us at [email protected] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Threads, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I've been wearing the same clothes since four years old, so you're welcome.

• 0:17Speaker 00

  Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. My guests today are Eileen Brosh McKenna and David Frankel, the writer and director of The Devil Wears Prada 2. I'm actually in the film in a cameo, playing, of course, myself. And I can honestly say it's as good or even better than the original. And that's saying a lot, because the original set the bar so high. 20 years after Andy walked away from working with Miranda Priestly, the media landscape has changed completely. Brosh McKenna and Frankel have managed to capture the sometimes bleak reality of journalism today and still make a film that's incredibly funny. It's all so beautiful visually, and it's just a lot of fun.

• 1:03Speaker 00

  But there's some very deep moments here, and that's why I'm excited to talk to them. They have managed to capture the real decimation of the media. At the same time, they talk about why creativity is still important and why standards matter. Our expert questions come from journalist and author Amy LaRocca and Lindsay Peoples, the editor in chief of The Cut. So stick around.

• 1:33Speaker 00

  Support for this show comes from The Guardian and their new show, Stateside, where journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman use the entire independent reporting resources of The Guardian to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what is actually happening in the world. Join Kai and Carter three times a week as they utilize all the reporting resources The Guardian has across news, international coverage, climate, culture, wellness, and more. And The Guardian's not owned by a billionaire. They fearlessly report the facts without interference. Go to theguardian.com/stateside to learn more. And listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube. That's theguardian.com/stateside.

• 2:17Speaker 01

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• 3:34Speaker 00

  Aline and David, thank you for coming on ON. We're happy to be here.

• 3:38Speaker 03

  Great to be here.

• 3:39Speaker 00

  So, the reaction to Devil Wears Proti two has been overwhelmingly positive. Congratulations. The New Yorker called it "a savvy, shiny reflection of our era." The Guardian called it "good-natured, buoyant entertainment." And entertainment writer Louis Peatsman said the movie is legitimately great, not just another soulless, legacy sequel. Sequels are often treated with suspicion, especially when the original is a cultural phenomenon and fans have developed a strong emotional attachment to it. So talk about the sort of anxieties you had leading up to it coming out. Let's hear from David and then Aline.

• 4:15Speaker 03

  Well, the anxieties persisted till this morning. I the the we, you know, we really resisted the idea. We mistrusted any kind of legacy sequel ourselves. So when the topic first came up in the immediate wake of the first movie's release, we resisted it and we resisted it for 18 years. And it wasn't until a couple of years ago, when, you know, the conversation turned to, should we consider this yet again? And that this Aline had this notion that, wow, the world's really changed around these characters and maybe there's something to explore here.

• 4:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, the spark for me was that so many people who are prominent in the business world in all these businesses had sort of gotten, you know, turned upside down and their reputations were, you know, damaged or impaired or challenged, you know, with the internet and so much conversation about I couldn't have named that many CEOs 10, 20 years ago, but now we're really intimately familiar with these folks. And so there was this little notion of like, what if Miranda got in trouble and Andy was the person who could help her? And that seemed like, like an interesting little notion that we started playing with. And then I, you know, our process is I pepper David with annoying emails and questions

• 5:39Speaker 04

  until he got vaguely interested. And then we found out that Merrill was interested in hearing what we had to say. So I went out to New York and we went down and hung out with her. You know, David will tell you her belief in the first movie. Merrill's belief in these, these two movies have really, has really buoyed us in times when we felt nervous.

• 5:58Speaker 00

  So what, what was the thing that pushed it over for each of you? And Merrill, I guess, what was that? David?

• 6:04Speaker 03

  Just the, I think the license for us to pursue it from Merrill was, was key. And, and then once we got into it, it became very exciting. I mean, Aline had a lot of ideas and, and I kibbist a little and we arrived at a narrative which combined what I loved about the first movie, which is Frothy exploration and wildly entertaining and very funny exploration of the fashion journalism world and the fashion world at large. But with asking some fundamental, universal questions about, in the case of the first movie, what it is to be a young person and be figuring out who you are and finding out where the ethical

• 6:49Speaker 03

  and moral lines you draw exist. And in the second movie, figuring out what it means to be somebody who's in their 40s and struggling to survive. Or someone who's running the thing and struggling to survive. That layer of infrastructure gave it some heft to us and meant that it could really resonate.

• 7:12Speaker 00

  One of the things that I found interesting about the movie was, the first movie was about learning to have a life despite intensity of work, or learning to pull away from work. This is about loving your job, to me. She says it very explicitly, Aline, correct? You have her say it.

• 7:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, Meryl says it towards the end of the movie, but you feel it from Andy from the beginning. And I think, that was the first movie, you see her realign her priorities and realize that she really wants to be a journalist. But the problem with that is that journalism is a way to make a living is petering out. And so I was always thinking about her as this was happening, that she would be in somewhat diminished circumstances. And then the world she came from, which had been so big, shiny and kind of glossy in the first movie, that was also undergoing this kind of seismic shift. So in a way, she and Miranda were going to be found, the movie starts with a crisis for

• 8:14Speaker 04

  both of them, which brings them together. And that was the very first idea that we had. And then what's different about this movie is often In terms of a sequel, is often the studio is the one who calls you and says, hey, we were thinking of a sequel and blah, blah, blah. But this wasn't that. This was the filmmakers, David and I, then going to our acting team, head by Merrill, and saying, hey, what do you think of this idea? So we brought it to the studio. We were the ones who said, what do you guys think of this? And then we were lucky enough that the new president of the studio had only been there for 10 days, David Greenbaum. He just loved those ideas. The idea that these two people who have a history need each other and that they're

• 8:56Speaker 04

  both sort of, you know, yeah, they get pulled back together.

• 9:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, they're in the same situation. So David, you've said that movies these days, quote, have to be events. The only way to make a hit movie is somehow to make it really important. Now, you've managed to do that. This thing has been marketed within an inch of its life, but in also very fun way. But something gets lost whenever a theatrical release has to justify itself as a cultural event. This is an easy one to do that. Could a mid-budget film like the original Devil Wears Prada get greenlit today from your perspective?

• 9:29Speaker 03

  I feel like the original Devil Wears Prada may still have succeeded even today. You might have had the same opportunity to break through and connect with the audience. I mean, the themes and the movie itself, I think, is very appealing. And I think like, you know, movies for women in general get undervalued and women, you know, movies starring women especially. And, you know, even it gets called a rom-com. It's not even technically, you know, it's not a rom-com. So I don't know. I was elated to see original movies breaking through last year, you know, One Battle After Another and Sinners and Weapons.

• 10:14Speaker 03

  So I think, I really think it's, if there's a great movie, people will come out to see it.

• 10:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, we had the book. We had a hit book the first time and that was what sort of got us through the process was the hit book. But, you know, I I wonder now if it would be a streamer. That would be the debate was like, would it go straight to streaming? You know, would it be a theatrical release? Because that's really the bar now is like, can something earn its keep as a theatrical release? But I almost named my company Big Surprise because everything that's geared towards women is just always like, big surprise, you know, big headlines, big surprise, big surprise, women want to see Mamma Mia, women want to see, you know, Romco with Sydney Sweeney. It's just always, everyone's always like falling over shocked.

• 10:58Speaker 00

  Right, exactly. I mean, you bring up original films, which I think is is interesting, like Sinners and One Battle After Another. And I'd love you each to talk about this idea of originality, because one of the themes I'm talking about, in fact, I talked about it on stage the other day, was it's really astonishing how people are really reacting against an AI kind of mentality, which is a facsimile that people's sort of sense isn't the same and are really drawn towards originals in some fashion. Aline, why don't you start first and then David?

• 11:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, I think that there's a, knowing these characters already and having a relationship with them that the audience has, I think you're right, like, people are craving things that feel real authentic and that they can sort of touch and feel. And they know these characters, they know these actors. And and we had a sense that this was going to happen because we got out on the street and people were like, running and screaming and screaming the characters' names and like, it was pandemonium when we were shooting. And I think it's that in-person thing. And I remember I was talking to one of the costume assistants and I said, what is going on? Like, why are people running out to see just like, you know, Anne cross the street? And he's like, people are craving real stuff, like real, it's like the the rise of live events, right?

• 12:15Speaker 04

  Like, people want to see something, touch something in person. And so that's why this tour that Marilyn and Annie did where they went around the world, like, people really, really wanted to see them and talk to them and feel them. And I I think you're right that there's this like thirst for something that feels like authentic and recognizable as opposed to something that feels uncanny.

• 12:37Speaker 00

  That's a very good word. That's an excellent word. David?

• 12:40Speaker 03

  Well, we went through this a little bit on the first movie because there was an indebtedness to the novel, which was at the time, you know, it's, I don't know, it's sold, you know, just a crazy number of books. And so how faithful could we be to that? And then how much new storytelling, how original could we be in the first one? We changed the whole third act of the movie. It's pretty faithful in its structure for the first two thirds. And we felt, again, you know, this obviously is not based on any pre-existing material. Eileen concocted it from whole cloth. But there, again, the expectation was the same characters, similar orientation, but we want to do something completely new that people

• 13:23Speaker 03

  don't feel like, oh, it's just a retread. And anytime you're creating something from whole cloth like that, it's a, it's a huge challenge. But you know that the audience is going to appreciate it. I mean, you know, if they're seeing something new. And, you know, one of the big talking points that I see online now is the nature of Miranda's character, because we didn't, we don't launch her just, you know, full of diatribe and criticism and withering remarks, you know, we launch her into this movie in a vulnerable place. So it seems like, you know, we're seeing some new colors from that character. And that, some people are, love that, and some people resist that. It's fascinating to see.

• 14:06Speaker 00

  So, Eileen, talk about that, because the original film shaped how we think about women, power, ambition. Miranda is very explicitly a villain, although she's a very funny one. And Andy's heroic turn comes when she realizes she doesn't need to compromise her values in order to please someone like Miranda. And yet, you can't help respect her, too, that last scene where she looks up and then says, that's all, of course. But he has a moment of real hope there. I have to say, I, I think this a lot with a friend of mine, Tina Brown, who was actually a cameo in the movie, too. If she were a man, would we have called her a genius instead of a devil, obviously? Same thing, Tina, in a lot of ways, as a big editor. I think she's the finest editor in the land, right? And, you know, other,

• 14:48Speaker 00

  others get a very different thing. And, not to go all feminist on you, but it's a really interesting situation with someone like this. And of course, this is very much based on Anna Wintour.

• 14:58Speaker 04

  Well, I think, you know, what the first movie was really about how like, even if your boss is nice, you're obsessed with them. Like, I used to work in a producer's office and everyone would be like, oh, he's running late. Oh, he ate chicken for lunch. Oh, he's going here, you know, for dinner. Like, there's an obsession with the boss that you have when you're an assistant. And I think that the movies are first-person movies, so you're seeing Miranda through her eyes. And so she's terrifying in the first movie. But in the second movie, you know, Andy is middle management and you get to see your boss up close and you get to understand their challenges along with yours. So I think by definition, when you rise up a little bit in the workplace,

• 15:38Speaker 04

  those bosses take on a dimension, you know, like you start, it's almost like when you grow up and you start to understand that your parents are fallible. It's like you grow up and you understand, oh, your boss doesn't have all the answers, you know, and they have issues too. And I think one thing Merrill has talked about is like Miranda lets someone help her. Which like is that that's to me, the most unexpected thing is is less that she's at a low point and it's more that she actually becomes open to someone doing something for her, someone unexpected who she really didn't even want to be there. And so I think it's like that that lens that you have on someone who's in power where you realize, oh, they're

• 16:19Speaker 04

  they're also fallible and they make mistakes and they have weaknesses and they have, you know, bad moments.

• 16:24Speaker 00

  Right, absolutely. Now, David, a few months ago, Anna Wintour and Chloe Mall did a joint interview with the New York Times. Anna, who I've interviewed, is obviously the global editorial director for Vogue. Chloe is the head of editorial content at Vogue US and Anna's successor and couldn't be more different. For example, in the interview, she talks about wanting to pay her staff more and how hard they work. David, is the approach to leadership in power less cinematic or is there a different kind of tension in a more millennial style of leadership that, say, Chloe represents or Andy's character would, were she to take over?

• 16:57Speaker 03

  Well, it's, yeah, I think, yeah, there's this tendency to be less demanding and more understanding. And I think there's also an expectation from the new generation that they Won't work as hard, that their feelings will be taken into account, which, you know, Lena and I grew up in at a time, and yes, I'm sure you did.

• 17:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, me too. Nice to meet you.

• 17:20Speaker 03

  Where who cares about your feelings, you know, like, get the job done.

• 17:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's what the money's for.

• 17:26Speaker 03

  The reason I even got the job in the first place is, I went into the studio and I said, Miranda is not the villain here. Miranda is the heroine. Miranda is trying to achieve excellence every day. And why does she have to be nice to accomplish that, you know? And there's a long list of mostly men, of course, who are highly regarded for their superb work. I mean, they might be the goats in their business, and no one really questions how nice they are about accomplishing that. And I always viewed the movie through the lens of, you know, Miranda is the hero here. Merrill embraced that. I think, you know,

• 18:11Speaker 03

  she has always said, you know, that if it were a man, there would be no movie.

• 18:16Speaker 04

  Right. I mean, I think it's funny because David is like notoriously the nicest, you know, and certainly among the nicest directors I've worked with. So I wonder if there's like a very curious thrill to watch somebody in the workplace, you know, because we are all doing our best to be polite and because the the rise of a certain type of language being, you know, discouraged in the workplace and that people are, you know, you can't really say things you used to say. And so I think there is something even more titillating about this lady who's like, kind of knows that she needs to rein it in, but doesn't really, is not totally comfortable with that. And that was very funny in this one because

• 18:58Speaker 04

  in the last movie, she's throwing her coats at people with abandon and wouldn't understand what the problem is. And now, you know, there's no scenes with HR in this movie, but I would love to write like deleted scenes.

• 19:09Speaker 00

  Oh, HR's all over.

• 19:10Speaker 04

  I would love to write.

• 19:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, where she says things. Oh, I love that. Those are my, among my favorite, where she says the wrong thing.

• 19:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 19:16Speaker 00

  What? And that, and the woman. Who is plays her assistant this time, who's wonderful, just sort of gives her the side eye that is so perfect.

• 19:23Speaker 03

  Simone Ashley.

• 19:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, she's amazing. Let's talk some specifics of the movie itself right now. The Devil Wears Prodigy touches on media ownership drama. Justin Thoreau plays Benji Barnes, a billionaire tech mogul resembling Jeff Bezos. There's a touch of Elon Musk, who knows nothing about the publication he wants to buy. Talk about this because I was laughing my ass off because, you know, Justin, who I know, was asking me various questions, but he said he watched a lot of interviews. I did and many other people did to inform him. But he has this, this, this really good sense of menacing oafishness that I think and victimy toddler-ness. Like I called, I think I texted you toddler monster. What do you want to explore in the tension between these people?

• 20:09Speaker 04

  Well, I think, you know, sometimes, I didn't really base them on anyone specific, but sometimes people who are super, super, super bright perceive the world in a different way. Like I've been around people who are extraordinarily bright in my life that are kind of odd. They're perceptually odd. And the thing that Justin did, I mean, it's starting with his complete lack of vanity and, and the hair that he wears, which is just so extraordinary, this spray tan and all that. But I wrote the character to be a little bit merry. Like I wrote, like he has a weird laugh and like that. Justin, he's so bouncy and cheerful that it's, that's, I think, more scary than if he had approached it with like.

• 20:50Speaker 00

  But also malevolent. He's clearly malevolent in that one scene in Italy. He's malevolent. This, you, I hate to tell you, but you nailed Jeff Bezos with a touch of Musk. And, you know, you also nailed Mackenzie Scott, actually. Lucy Liu is playing his ex-wife and you got a sense of her because she's, Mackenzie is, it doesn't go out a lot, right? She doesn't get seen a lot and everything, which is interesting. Were you, and you didn't make him into a cartoon either.

• 21:19Speaker 04

  Yeah. David, you want to talk about that?

• 21:21Speaker 03

  Well, I think that. When Justin came on, it was a tiny park and he added some shading and some brilliant comedy that expanded who we, you know, how we understand who Benji is, his, his theories about replacing our necks and his desire to send a rocket ship to the sun were inventions. But, and then he and Eileen really worked very hard on the speech that's in the Last Supper scene about his vision of the future. And that's where you find out, oh, this is actually someone who has thought very deeply about this and has horrifying opinions about

• 22:00Speaker 03

  it, but also understands the world and history and technology at its core.

• 22:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think he's a guy who like polishes off a giant tome about ancient Rome or like, you know, the, the kingdoms of Venice or whatever, just because he's happens to be in Italy. But what Justin brought to it was like, so he, we got on a Zoom and he took, there was things in the script that we talked about. And I said, you know, I think, like in examples, I said, I think Benji's just like not drinking water right now. I think he wants to like, like he thinks water is bad. And then what came out of Justin's mouth without missing beat, he goes, yeah, yeah, he's running an aqua deficit. And I was like, thank you. And like the same thing with the rocket ship to the sun was like one line where it said, you know, people are going to the moon, but I want to go to the sun. And then he sat down with me before and he had like developed this whole thing of like

• 22:52Speaker 04

  a rocket that would go to the sun and how it would work. So I think one of the reasons that the actors, a lot of the actors in this movie loved the original movie and loved the idea of being on this and they really thought about it. Like every single one of these actors, I don't think I, there was a single day where Simone Ashley did not come up to me before and say, okay, I'm doing, and she doesn't have that many lines. She's sort of like the secret, you know, she's Miranda's Polly Walnuts. Yeah. And so she would come and say like, I, I think I'm going to do this or like, I think I'm going to play with my bracelets. Like there was so much thought that obviously the main four, who were just these incredible acclaimed actors, but even the supporting people like

• 23:33Speaker 04

  really thought so deeply about. And I think people feel like the world's a scary place right now. They don't know their place in it. They don't know their future. You know, people in the movie business are not immune to that. And I think everybody feels like, You gotta monetize your algo or whatever, you know.

• 23:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, right. No, I get it.

• 23:52Speaker 04

  Right?

• 23:52Speaker 00

  So to that point, the new movie comes, as we said, 20 years after the original. Things have changed in journalism, a lot due to tech, by the way. And in 2006, Andy Sachs, played by Anne Hathaway, had to choose between a career in elite fashion magazine or a newspaper. As my wife noted, she'd be lucky to find a job now in media at all. You could have leaned into a more glamorous fantasy world for the sequel, instead the film acknowledges the harsh reality. The industry has changed, David. How did, because it's, I walked out of it and I said, you know, someone asked me, I said, well, it's real pretty and it's even prettier and it's more colorful and the fashion is more and as funny as ever, but it's very serious. It's a very deep movie about this.

• 24:36Speaker 00

  Talk about why you took this approach.

• 24:38Speaker 03

  Well, we are living in challenging times. I don't need to tell you, Cara. And I think we are all living under the cloud of the future, you know? And that's just this very strange phenomenon. I grew up thinking, you know, the future was bright and rosy and, you know, go off, young man, make your future, you know, make your way in the world. And I now, you know, I have kids who are 24 years old. Alina has kids about the same age. And we're hard put to point them in the right direction. You know, where is, and where's the right step? And, you know, especially my daughter is interested in film and I, you know, journalism

• 25:20Speaker 03

  and Hollywood are in about the same shape. L.A. has become a very bleak place, I'm told. And the industry feels like it has shrunk dramatically in the last five years and it feels like it's destined to shrink dramatically even more in the next five years. So where do we go? And that's, you know, that's obviously true in journalism and that's true. I imagine in law and probably even in medicine. You know, I met with the CEO of a major bank last summer and she told me that, you know, probably it could be 100,000. People are going to be affected by AI.

• 26:01Speaker 03

  So if you're making a movie that's about the world of media, it has to reflect the reality. I mean, that's, you know, one of our goals is to, as light and entertaining as we want the movie to be, is to also make it authentic. And, you know, and in the first movie, we were able to pepper it with, you know, a handful of people and scenes that made it feel like, oh, this is really the world. And we, we tried again, you know, very hard to give it that. And honestly, you know, it all starts with Meryl Streep. She understands it's valuable to make an entertainment, but she also wants her work to be about something. And I think we share that ambition.

• 26:45Kara Swisher?

  We'll be back in a minute.

• 26:54Kara Swisher?

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• 29:35Speaker 00

  So every episode, we get an expert to send us a question. And for you, both of you, we got two. The first one is for Aline. Let's hear it.

• 29:44Speaker 06

  Hi, my name is Lindsay Peoples. I'm editor-in-chief of The Cut. I am very excited because I'm actually on my way to go see the Devil Wears Prada 2 right now with some of The Cut's staff. And really, my question is that when I think about this film, 20 years ago, the fantasy of this film was that getting into the room with someone like Miranda was the ultimate pinnacle of their dreams. Dreams and Goals. Today, the fantasy, I feel like, is actually, does that room even still exist? And I'm curious about what was the hardest part in writing this film and now bringing it to 2026 with a powerful editor, when it seems that a lot of the cultural authority and dominance of that role has really moved to,

• 30:26Speaker 06

  you know, platforms like social media, Substacks, and to talent.

• 30:30Speaker 04

  That's a great question. I mean, who are we listening to? Like, who's Walter Cronkite? Who's Diana Riehlend? Who's Saul Bellow? Like, who are the leading public figures that we're all supposed to, like, believe, trust, follow, like? And that was one of the reasons that I thought this was a good idea for a movie is because even as she's become more well-known, the Miranda Priestly character, there's this, you know, incredible niche-ification of all these worlds, so that, like, you know, I'll meet somebody and mention it to my kids, and they're like, "You don't know who that is? That person's huge," you know? And then, conversely, I'll be like, "Wait, you don't know, like, they don't know who, they certainly don't know who Walter, I mean, my kids might know who Walter Cronkite is, but only because they're old."

• 31:14Speaker 00

  Madonna was just a recent one.

• 31:16Speaker 04

  Right, where, like, she came out and people kind of were, yeah. So it's like, those, I think, you know, a friend of mine said-

• 31:23Speaker 00

  Who is this Madonna you speak of? Who is this Madonna?

• 31:26Speaker 04

  Somebody said to me, like, you know, "It's important to, to dream of something that exists." So, like, for kids, like, if you, you don't want to set your cap at something that doesn't exist anymore, you know? Like, it's gonna be awfully hard to be this sort of, like, all-encompassing authority when not just the niche-ification, but also we just don't trust people the way we used to. You know, we just don't look to people as being infallible, or fallible, in the way we used to. And so, she's on her, back on her heels right from the beginning.

• 31:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, and her good work doesn't get much, many clicks, or doesn't, don't go viral, etc., which you've discussed with her.

• 32:05Speaker 04

  The idea of a lost leader, you know how they would always say, like, the news is a lost leader? That's not a thing.

• 32:10Speaker 00

  You can't have a lost leader anymore.

• 32:12Speaker 04

  No.

• 32:12Speaker 00

  So, let's get to our second expert question. David, you take this one.

• 32:17Speaker 07

  Hi, I'm Amy LaRocca. I'm a writer and journalist. But what qualifies me as an expert today is not only was I the fashion director at New York Magazine for many years, I also worked at Vogue magazine at the exact same time as Lauren Weisberger. In fact, Lauren is the person who walked me back from my first job interview with Anna Wintor. So I guess you could say I was an eyewitness to the devil wearing Prada and that whole era at Vogue. So my question today is, given how much fashion has moved in a much more inclusive and generous direction in the past 20 years since the original film came out, away from the idea that fashion should be gate capped, that

• 33:02Speaker 07

  it was only for these sort of skinny white women to see and enjoy, what do you think it is about that very sort of snotty, exclusionary culture at Vogue that people still really, really, really love to watch? They want the zingers, they want Miranda's nasty zingers and all of it. And everything about that is what we're being told fashion has moved away from. And yet, the fans can't get enough of Miranda. They're lining up, dressed up

• 33:44Speaker 07

  as their favorite characters to see this movie. So what do you think it is about fashion and bitchiness that is so appealing to audiences?

• 33:56Speaker 03

  Well, yes, I think, first of all, yes, fashion has opened up a little bit. But I think, you know, anytime we get a peek into the people past the curtain of these Wizards of Oz, it's always fascinating. And the crueler they are, the more curious we are. There is something, I think, that Eileen mentioned the other, a few minutes ago, which is sort of that vicarious thrill, like... Honestly, it's kind of the way we probably view some of the billionaires and maybe even the way we people view Trump.

• 34:38Speaker 03

  It's I, you know, boy, would I love to be able to Trump through the world, crushing everything in my sight. There's some kind of vicarious thrill. And I don't know why the fashion world does seem to attract people who are extremely opinionated and vocal about their opinions. And again, I think most of us are a little more restrained and so we're fascinated by people who let it all hang out that way.

• 35:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:10Speaker 04

  I love the intense seriousness about silly things like, did you guys, have you guys seen that Chanel half shoes that just came out?

• 35:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:18Speaker 04

  They're half a shoe. They end at the middle of your arch and then your toes are out. And I don't know how much they are, but I'm going to guess they're a thousand dollars. They're from Mattia Blazey's new. And, you know, people are going to lust after those and like resell them and get really

• 35:35Speaker 04

  I'm sorry. And it's like, cut to me buying them, by the way. But like, um, it's just, there's like an intense, intense seriousness about like, there's a line in the sequel where she goes, uh, what about bow tie, rodeo bow ties? And it's like the idea that you're like a very, very serious person and then you end up talking about very silly things that I think is there's something kind of delightfully comedic about that. Um, and so that's something I've always, that's why I think drying up the tone has always been really important and something I think David's done extremely well. So like, cause it can get real silly really quickly.

• 36:13Speaker 00

  Right, absolutely. So let's get real silly really quick, finishing up talking about the movie. I am not a fashion person right now. I'm wearing a shirt that's called a blanket shirt, um, cause it's so comfortable. I am a soft pants gal. But I loved the fashion in it and my mom was a fashion coordinator, bomb teller. So she loved fashion and so I spent my youth in the back of a fashion show. So I know a lot about fashion, but I just never, it never stuck as my mother likes to tell me. But talk about the fashion and its character. It worked even more in this movie.

• 36:48Speaker 00

  It just, it was just astonishing. And talk about fashion as a character, cause it's like on.

• 36:53Speaker 03

  Twelve at this point. Thank you. I mean, we, you know, obviously, there's after the first movie, there's enormous expectation. So, so much went into it. It starts with the collaboration with the stars and with Molly Rogers, our costume designer, who inherited the mantle from Patricia Field, who did it in the first movie. And I've worked with both of them for 30 years. I learned how to shoot fashion doing Sex and the City 20 years ago. And, you know, the "When in doubt, start tilt up from the shoes" was always our mantra. You had to make sure you saw the shoes. But I think the bar was set so beautifully high in the first movie, and Molly felt this daily pressure to raise it even higher for this movie. I

• 37:38Speaker 03

  mean, again, it all ties into how do we make an event? How do we make it something different and even more than than what fans are expecting? And how do we make it, you know, something accessible and exciting for people who aren't even familiar with the first movie? And that, so, you know, there are fashion shows in this movie that are grander and, you know, it's larger. And, but they also matter even more. I think it's, it's making the fashion integral to the characterization. I don't know that it's, they're integral to the plotting, but you really understand who these people are by what they wear. And,

• 38:19Speaker 03

  you know, Emily's character, just working at Dior, it was, you know, we're starting with a sort of very simple idea that, oh, she mostly wears Dior. And then how, within that world, do we create Emily Charlton? And Andy's character was probably the biggest challenge, because you're trying to create some simulation of reality for her as a journalist who's, you know, been traveling on a journalist budget for 20 years and now coming back into this world. And we rationalize it by saying, well, she, like you, she has learned, learned those fashion, and now she's starting to reincorporate it into her life. And she's collected pieces over the years. And now she has access to the closet.

• 39:04Speaker 03

  I would never wear it. But you'd look great in it, and you'd, you'd know when you looked great. Yeah. Never.

• 39:12Speaker 04

  It was a really important part of the characterizations was the clothing and I worked really, really closely with Molly. I spent a lot of time with Molly, partly because costumes is my happy place. But, um, you know, Meryl's character has a different look. Her, her look has evolved and she works really closely with Molly on like storytelling through her clothing. I've never seen an actor be more, it was almost like she was picking out armor to play a samurai or something. Like she's very specific about it. And then Emily always has license to go over the top and Nigel has this like established kind of crispness to it and it's all updated. But as David said, you know, Annie's character, Andy was the biggest challenge because what I used to say to Annie was it's like as if you lived in France for six months. So you speak

• 39:57Speaker 04

  some French, but not perfect French. You have an ear for it, but it's not perfect. So we blended and then Molly sourced a tremendous amount of vintage. But apart from that, I think I just, the logistics of what Molly and her team did is so overwhelming because Absolutely. We had to do that huge fashion show with Gaga. Spoiler alert, there's a giant fashion show and they pulled everything for that. And then she was pulling things that were like really current for the fashion montage. When you see our main characters arrive in Milan and then they change a lot and like, that's all very current, but it had to be current and timeless. And Molly has resources. She just has things from all over. And I'll share

• 40:41Speaker 04

  with you one of her fashion rules that she gave me that I've, that I quoted a lot. Cause I mean, we had super high end stuff and really expensive things, but then, you know, Molly's also a magpie and like picks things from everywhere. And one time she, we were looking at something, she said to me, you know, darling, sometimes the right earrings are from CBS. And I, I have really taken that to heart. I quoted that to people many times. Cause you know, it's like that high, low, like putting, it's the styling in addition to just finding the items. It's how they're put together, you know? So it's like, I, I think when you watch the movie, you think it's just clothes, but the language and the storytelling of what

• 41:22Speaker 04

  Molly did. So we spent a lot, a lot of time talking. Cause I'm also, I've been obsessed with clothing. Since I was like 12 or 13 because I used it to kind of transform my, you know, I was like incredibly uncool. Um, not that I'm cool now, but I was unbelievably uncool. And then I had to figure out a way to like, get a little cooler and get some boys to like me. And it was really about like going downtown in New York and wearing vintage skirts and lace stockings and trying to craft something that was like Cher meets Madonna. That would like make me cool. And that's what I love about fashion is that it's a way of talking about yourself without saying anything. So I've always loved it and been obsessed with it.

• 42:03Speaker 03

  I was gonna ask, what was your experience in, in, um, dressing so authentically as Kara Swisher in our movie?

• 42:11Speaker 00

  That's a good question, David.

• 42:13Speaker 03

  Did Molly oversee your costume?

• 42:16Speaker 00

  Yes, she did.

• 42:17Speaker 04

  Well, Kara's very, she's shy about this, but like, we didn't give anybody lines because if you give non-actors lines, they get very tangled up in it. We just, David just kind of walked over and told you what was going on. And I gotta say, I don't know, not, not log rolling, but like you just nailed like what a person would really say. And that authenticity is super, super important to David always. And like, as a collaborator, I will say like, even just assembling those people for that party. I know it seems like we just stocked it with people because like, to be fab, but like Miranda's friends had to be the best at what they do. And then the people at the party had to be like the chicest people who would show up at that party. So I know it seems like it's all like for fun and confection,

• 43:00Speaker 04

  but it really had to feel like the right sorts of people. And luckily this time, because of the success of the movie, we were able to pull the clothes and the people and really populate, like there's no fake designer in this movie. There's Dior. And the first movie, we invented a designer.

• 43:16Speaker 00

  Yeah. I have to say, everybody, I've been wearing the same clothes since four years old. So you're welcome. And the Oscar goes to Kara Swisher for her fantastic portrayal of herself again.

• 43:30Speaker 00

  We'll be back in a minute.

• 43:38Speaker 00

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• 44:23Speaker 00

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• 46:18Speaker 00

  Let's pivot and talk about the intersection of, because this is a topic in your movie, very much so, tech, Trump, Hollywood and media. Paramount's deal to buy Warner Brothers Discovery is causing agita in Hollywood. The fear is that it will lead to more job losses and fewer films. Thousands of Hollywood professionals have signed an open letter opposing the deal. Neither of you have signed, neither of the stars of the film, Emily Blunt, Anne Hathaway, Meryl Streep and Stanley Tucci. I get that, and I've talked to a number of the people who have signed and why, but I'm wondering how you're feeling as these moguls like Paramount CEO David Ellison has cozied up to Trump, you know, taking over and changing CBS News. Their fears will do a version of that at CNN.

• 47:01Speaker 00

  I have publicly said I will not be working for the Ellison's. And of course, Trump this week is trying to get Disney, which is this film, to fire Jimmy Kimmel again. I'd love to know how you're feeling about these moments because, again, Disney owns 20th Century Studios, which is distributing The Devil Wears Prada. Thoughts on what's happening right now? Because Benji has won. Right now, in this situation, and I'm not going to say what happens in the movie, but Benji has won all over the place, whether it's Jeff Bezos at the Washington Post, or wherever it happens to be.

• 47:35Speaker 03

  Well, you know, this was part of the conversation that we had 20 years ago, because at the time Rupert Murdoch owned 20th Century Fox, which was, had published the novel, you know, they owned the imprint that published the novel, and Rupert was actually a driving force toward getting the movie made. And so, and there was this conflict in everybody who went, ever went to work for Rupert, because we knew what he was doing to the press at large, and we knew that we rarely aligned with his political sensibility. And I believe that, you know, those same fears are writ even larger today.

• 48:16Speaker 03

  When there's a political misalignment, and, you know, it's why are people anxious about buying anything from Amazon today? Because we don't, where is Jeff Bezos going with his money? If he's supporting Trump, can he really just keep one foot on each side of a divide? Are these guys really just neutral? Or are they going to, you know, tip the scales? And again, it's part of our not knowing. I think it's, you know, the doubt we have about the future goes to the democracy, the technology, everything seems in doubt. And I

• 48:56Speaker 00

  I also worked for Rupert Murdoch.

• 48:57Speaker 03

  We were too busy, we were too busy to sign, yeah, no, yeah. So, we did not quit, we made him a hit movie. So, we're, we're probably part of the problem.

• 49:07Speaker 00

  I know, I left and did my own company.

• 49:09Speaker 03

  Right, no, and I admired that at the time.

• 49:11Speaker 00

  I think everyone has to make their own choices.

• 49:13Speaker 03

  It's kind of what the movie's about, you know, it's like, yeah, I mean, it's, you know, this time around, Andy has to embrace working for Miranda and working for whoever is the billionaire who owns it, you know? And I think we're, so many of us are in that position.

• 49:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, there's a line in the movie about like being a, if you're a visionary or a vendor. And I think, you know, as a writer, a young writer especially, I, you're sort of an entrepreneur. You know, you've got your little satchel of things you're trying to sell. And I used to tell writers, don't read the trades because honestly, the system was so stable. It was like, you don't really need to know who's in or who's out at these companies because it's so stable. And now it's like you open the trades or the New York Times or whatever. It's like, oh, that company doesn't exist anymore, you know, or has been bought or has disappeared. Or is, you know, the, we made this movie for 20th Century Fox and now we're with Disney. You know, like you have to now in Hollywood, there's such seismic shifts like every day.

• 50:13Speaker 04

  So for young people to break in, it's just figuring out like who's buying what? How can I make a living? You know, I really feel for, for young people who are trying to break in. And then you had this layer of, you know, what, what worries me is people who own these businesses where it's not their core business. Because when it's not their core business, they can delete it like that. And that always scares me because they could wake up any, any day and go, you know what? Never mind. This is too much trouble. These people are too annoying. It's, this process is too unwieldy and then it goes away. And so this instability is really just was not the case. And now it's like, you have to know what's going on.

• 50:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's very well said. I just, one of the things is, you know, some people are like, well, we have a good billionaire. I go, none of them are. They can change in a second. Like, that's the thing is the shifting. And also in slight, why are we relying on the kindness of billionaires, even the nice ones? Right? Um, I was with one, um, this weekend and he was like, well, you like me. And I go, today, today I like you, but it could change.

• 51:18Speaker 04

  Well, you know, when you live in that world, I mean, you would know more than we would. But like, when you're in that world and you're just in a thing where you're like summoning your plane. Like, I remember somebody, like, there's a famous story about a producer getting on a plane and, um, saying like,

• 51:32Speaker 04

  You know, uh, they don't give you the warm nuts anymore. Like, where do you sit where you get the warm? Like, there's just, there's, there's some quote about like, there's no habit of the rich, which once sampled does not become an addiction. And it's like, once you are so accustomed to like, you're playing your, I mean, I don't know, but I feel like there's something that changes the molecules of your brain so that things seem possible that maybe shouldn't seem possible. And that's why there's a line in the movie where she says, how long have you had a house here? And he goes, I have no idea. And just the idea that like, you could have forgotten that you bought a house in Lake Como.

• 52:09Speaker 00

  Stunning house.

• 52:09Speaker 04

  Yeah. I, I think I don't know that I'll ever know what it's like to live that day to day, but it does seem like it changes people's idea of like, what they can and should do.

• 52:19Speaker 00

  Right. Well, what's interesting is I call it the Kashmir prison. They go from the plane to the chief and they have chiefs of staff everywhere. And whenever one of them comes up to me with one of their chiefs of staff stars talking to me, I'm like, I'm not speaking to you. So either get the principal or move away from me. And I literally go.

• 52:37Speaker 04

  Wasn't there a thing of like, rich people now having coats because they're, they don't ever, yeah.

• 52:42Speaker 00

  Yes. It happened. I, that happened to me. And I was like, you're such an asshole. But, um, but you know, and, and I used to be able to do that. And now they won't, they don't want people like me around because I'm pointing out the obvious. All right. Two more quick questions and I'll let you go. We obviously can't not talk about AI because everyone has to talk about AI. And actually, it's an important and inevitable topic, no matter where you turn. David, directing is all about taste and point of view, something AI can't replicate. And

• 53:09Speaker 03

  I hope.

• 53:10Speaker 00

  great writing finds a way to take very personal, specific experiences to make them feel universal again. Again, something AI can't do, at least not yet. Um, it can't mine its personal experiences because it doesn't have experiences. Um, but will it always be that way? Can you imagine someone with real creative talent training in LLM to write and direct truly amazing films?

• 53:32Speaker 03

  I can imagine AI surprising us. Yes. I think AI will be able to write jokes and the essence of a Joke is surprised and it will learn what timing is, you know, it'll speak in a voice that we find amusing. So that's sort of the germ of it. Beyond that, storytelling, you know, I think we the canary in the coal mine right now is music. People are listening to it and they can't really discern the distinction between something that's machine created and the human sweat poured into it. So I'm not going to be shocked when AI starts to take over first,

• 54:16Speaker 03

  you know, it'll, it'll be these micro dramas at first and, and, and it will slowly expand and people won't see it coming. And I think that's what's so beautifully expressed in Aline's speech for Benji near the end of the movie, which is it'll be like the lava of Pompeii, you know, you'll, it'll just, it'll just roll over us and we'll be buried in it. So I'm very pessimistic.

• 54:43Speaker 00

  Wow. Jesus, David. Jesus, David. All right. Aline?

• 54:48Speaker 04

  Well, it's funny, I, I am, I don't think we know because like when email, when we first got email, I don't know that I thought that's on a continuum to me doing the apple dance with my son's girlfriend on Instagram. Like, I don't think we know where it's going to lead. I don't use AI for anything except for like, hey, what's a good restaurant? Or like, where's the nearest anthropology? It's very unsmart. And like, one day I said, blah, blah, blah, you know, on Sunday, the 19th, and it said, the 19th is Saturday. And I'm like, not very nice to my AI. And I was like, dude, it's not. It's Sunday. And then, you know, it does that like, super obsequious thing. Have you seen that guy on the internet who was constantly making the chat mess up?

• 55:32Speaker 04

  Like, if you ask it, I have found it to be like, I have not seen this super competent stuff. I know this is going, this take is going to age poorly. But for what I use it for, which is like, what's a good place to eat? And, you know, I'm in a new city. What's a cool place to hang out? And then, like, I was in, I was In Europe and I was like, okay, find me a place to eat right where I am. And then it's like, oh, they have great sushi hand rolls here. And then I go and it's closed. And I'm like, my, my friend, what? Don't send me to closed restaurants. And it's like, you know how it does that obsequious?

• 56:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:07Speaker 04

  Like, I'm, yeah, I'm so terribly sorry. Of course you blah, blah, blah. And then it, it, I don't know. I, I haven't, uh, I'm not even tempted to use it for anything other than that because I don't, it doesn't seem to know what day is Sunday and Saturday. And of course, this is gonna be, this is gonna be dumb later when it's like,

• 56:23Speaker 00

  I'm right in the middle. I'm in the middle between both of you.

• 56:26Speaker 04

  I'm saying this as it's gonna control, listen to me through my toaster and report me.

• 56:30Speaker 03

  I mean, we already, look how much we've, I mean, look, we've been living with AI since the iPhone was invented. Basically, you know, we've all surrendered our phone numbers and our, and our maps. And, uh, God knows what, what other, our photos, our tasks, you know, so much of it, we, we don't, we've lost the capability ourselves. And we've handed it over to the machines. And anytime we can do that, we seem vulnerable. And, uh, anything that the machine is pointed at, it will, it will eat. I mean, it's, it's kind of, you know, I, look, it's,

• 57:06Speaker 00

  It is the Borg.

• 57:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 57:07Speaker 00

  You saw that movie.

• 57:09Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 57:09Speaker 00

  It's the Borg.

• 57:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 57:10Speaker 00

  It's the Borg.

• 57:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 57:11Speaker 00

  It is. I keep telling people that. So last question, the original film asked whether professional success is worth the tremendous personal sacrifice. Twenty years later, has that answer changed? Um, I think it's worth the sacrifice. But David, you go first and Aline, you get the last word.

• 57:31Speaker 03

  Yes, I, I, I, look, I believe that, uh, you know, if some, whatever your definition of personal happiness is the most important thing. Um, and work be damned, but it's really where, where you set your priorities, uh, you know, but I personally have, I feel like I've made the sacrifices that Miranda Priestly has made at times. She talks about missing so much of her children's lives and I feel that and, uh, At the same time, there are just enormous rewards and gratifications that come with it. You know, I imagine you feel the same way.

• 58:09Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 58:09Speaker 03

  You can't imagine your life without it. And so I hope that Andy, the character going forward, continues to aim high and uses Miranda as a model and doesn't compromise.

• 58:25Speaker 04

  I can only speak for myself that, you know, I feel that you have to make, the system doesn't care about you and it's not going to offer you choices. And that's very much the way our country is. Like, we're not going to make an accommodation. Like, that's just not the way we are. And, but for me, like, I decided to stick to screenwriting instead of TV writing when I had little kids, because screenwriting allows you to sit at home. And TV, you have to go where someone tells you when you can pee and eat and go home. So the system is not going to care about you. If you want to maintain a balance, you have to do it. And that's why, like, I say to my kids or young people, think about what you love to do, but also think about what do you want your days to be like? How soft do you need your pants to be? Like, do you need someone to tell you where to go to lunch?

• 59:10Speaker 04

  Do you want to sit at a desk? Like, the only thing about, you know, making choices is like, make choices for yourself and try not to have choices be made upon you. And the only way you can do that is by educating yourself about like, what the day-to-day of it is. And so that's something that I don't think we talk about a lot, which is like, literally, do you, are you a person who needs to take a nap? Are you a person who, you know, wants to get up and walk around? And I think one thing that the pandemic showed us was that, like, we could do this from home. Where I'm in my office, Steve, it's in Miami, and like, just, just making it work for you. But there's always going to be things that you miss. And I, my very first work trip after my kids were born, because I didn't go anywhere,

• 59:54Speaker 04

  was the first Prada table read.

• 59:58Speaker 04

  I went to New York. And my son, it happened to fall, of course, on his first day of preschool. Oh, no. And I have a picture of him holding a pink prince, a fuzzy pink pretend princess phone, trying to call me from the preschool. Oh, no. Yeah. You're killing me. That my friend sent me, and I was like devastated, because he just didn't understand where I was. Um, and then now I always, you know, ask them like, it was fine. It was good. You liked it, right? Like you like having a mom who, you know, like

• 1:00:28Speaker 04

  any, any room to say, I don't, I don't want to know otherwise.

• 1:00:31Speaker 00

  It's fine. It's fine.

• 1:00:33Speaker 04

  You make your choices. You, yeah.

• 1:00:34Speaker 00

  They're fine.

• 1:00:35Speaker 04

  Yeah. And Andy, Andy, I mean, by the way, I just will end with this. Andy doesn't have kids and she's not married. And, um, that was really important to Andy. And that was something she said to me right away was like that I, I, she wants it to me like, there's a way to be in your 40s that we're not talking about. And I thought that was really cool. Like she's not made the, the choices that are dictated to her. And

• 1:01:00Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:01:00Speaker 04

  That's why the love relationship in the movie is like, just seeing her meet someone and go out on a date. She can do that, you know, but showing women that there's, uh, anyone really that, that you can make choices for yourself.

• 1:01:11Speaker 00

  And I certainly won't ruin the movie, but the last picture, they're all where they want to be.

• 1:01:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:01:16Speaker 00

  They're all where they want to be. And that, that's a fantastic picture.

• 1:01:20Speaker 03

  Uh, thank you.

• 1:01:21Speaker 00

  I'm not going to say what it is.

• 1:01:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:22Speaker 00

  It's really powerful, actually, the very last image that you get of them. Um, I, I have to ask this, is there going to be a sequel to the sequel?

• 1:01:31Speaker 03

  We have a stock answer if you want to hear that.

• 1:01:34Speaker 00

  Sure. I'll hear your stock answer.

• 1:01:35Speaker 03

  Which is, uh, that we love these characters and we love these actors and, uh, any opportunity to work with them again, we would embrace. So.

• 1:01:47Speaker 04

  20 years from now though, I'm, I, I think I'm going to be a little tuckered out. What about you, David?

• 1:01:53Speaker 00

  A little faster.

• 1:01:54Speaker 03

  It's gonna, yeah, it's gonna have to come around. Yeah, we're not getting younger.

• 1:01:58Speaker 00

  Yeah. I think there's one more go here. There's one more chapter, but that's just me. Anyway, I hope it works out. It's a wonderful movie. You guys are such talents. And one of the things I said to someone, you know, Scott was arguing with me about sequels. Oh, sequels are so tired, uh, before. And I went to the movie and I said, no, you're wrong here. What happened is these people were astonishingly talented. They made an amazing movie 20 years ago. And now they're even better. Like all of them, every single person involved in this movie, the music people, the costume people, they're different costume people, but the director, the actors, I said, they're just better at it, even more so. And so this is why this movie is a perfect sequel in that regard.

• 1:02:41Speaker 03

  Thank you. That means, that means everything to us.

• 1:02:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, that means a lot. Thank you. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

• 1:02:46Speaker 03

  Thank you for having us.

• 1:02:53Speaker 00

  Today's show was produced by Christian Castro-Rosell, Michelle Alloy, Catherine Millsop, Megan Burney, and Kalen Lynch. Nishat Corwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Sam Lee, Catherine Barner, and Roella Rauv. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, that's all. If not, by all means, move at a glacial pace. You know how that thrills me. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.

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