Jay-Z's Roc Nation School Swindle w/ Zachariah Porter & Jonathan Carson

It's that time of year, students are finishing school for the summer, and some are graduating for good. Now imagine being unable to graduate because you owe money to your school, despite being promised a debt-free education. Laci welcomes the fabulous Zachariah Porter and Jonathan Carson (Camp Counselors Podcast) to the show to discuss the fiasco behind Jay-Z's Roc Nation school launched at Long Island University in downtown, including text messages of admissions and makeshift studios. Stay schemin’! Keep the scams coming and snitch on your friends by emailing us at [email protected]. Check out the Camp Counselors Podcast CON-gregation, catch Laci's TV Show Scam Goddess, now on Freeform and Hulu! Follow on Instagram: Scam Goddess Pod: @scamgoddesspod Laci Mosley: @divalaci Zachariah Porter: @zachariahporter Jonathan Carson: @hellomynamesjon Research by Kathryn Doyle SOURCES https://www.avclub.com/jay-z-roc-nation-university-mislead-students https://www.bkmag.com/2025/04/08/jay-z-roc-nation-school-brooklyn-debt-free-scholarship-scam/ https://hiphopdx.com/news/jay-z-roc-nation-school-criticism-debt-free-promise

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Speaker 00

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• 2:16Laci Mosley?

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• 2:50Laci Mosley?

  What's poppin', congregation? It's your girl, Lacey Mosley, AKA Scam Goddess, back with another episode about robbery, fraud, those who practice it. Obviously, this is a comedy show. I'm having to remind y'all of that sometimes, so I'm just gonna keep doing it. If you are a part of the congregation, what's up? Yes, wave, say hello to your neighbor. Mm-hmm. And say hello to our new neighbors today, because y'all already know I'm very what? Yes, excited, elated, thrilled. Today, we have not one, but two fake camp counselors on the show, already coming in with the scam energy. They camp counselors, but they're fake ones. I love it. One is a TikTok personality who rose to fame for his original and hilarious comedy sketches, rants, characters, and storytimes, you know? The other will charm your socks off

• 3:35Laci Mosley?

  with his video content while showcasing the wildest, most unexpected finds on Zillow. I have my own Zillow scams that you know we've talked about. Together, they host Camp Counselors, a lighthearted variety podcast set at the fictional camp Shady Birch, where the counselors may not know much about actual camping, but they sure know how to bring the campy fun. I know, that's right. I couldn't be more thrilled, y'all, to welcome to the congregation. Y'all get up, y'all say amen, y'all give a little hand, okay? Our first-time ushers, our new collection plate boys, Zachariah Porter and Jonathan Carson to the show. Hello, gentlemen, what's up? It's counselors. Oh, my God.

• 4:12Speaker 05

  Obsessed with being a part of the congregation. I used to do the offering plate at my congregation growing up. And during the section where we'd have to mingle and greet each other, I would get so nervous and my hands would get sweaty that I would always go to the bathroom at that part because I didn't want people to touch my sweaty hands. I just got anxiety about the whole thing every single Sunday.

• 4:31Laci Mosley?

  OK, now wait a minute. You were doing the collection plate. Are you going to the restroom mid? Collection plate hand out with sweaty hands?

• 4:38Speaker 05

  Separate.

• 4:39Laci Mosley?

  Because I was like, it's giving. He was like, no, it's because I'm anxious, y'all. And his pockets were just crinkly and thick.

• 4:46Speaker 05

  Well, in my church, that greeting each other part was always like 10 minutes in. So I'd always go to the bathroom then. And then they would always tap me. I was told that I was really good at getting the donations up with the congregation. I was really flamboyant and they liked that about me. So I would give nods if it was a really good tip. I'd be like, OK, that's a 10. And then I would remember who would give a 20 and then next week a 5, not even thinking that financial hardship could be an issue. I'd be like, I remember you always giving 20s. Why is it a 5? And I would give these nods and looking back at it. I was like, wait, not me finessing these people for cash.

• 5:20Speaker 06

  And not getting a cut of it.

• 5:23Speaker 05

  Just that spaghetti luncheon after, that was my cut, I guess.

• 5:26Speaker 06

  That's always so good.

• 5:27Laci Mosley?

  That reminds me of when I waited tables and they used to call me and a couple of my friends mercenaries because we would make sure your check was high as fuck.

• 5:37Speaker 05

  As it should be.

• 5:38Laci Mosley?

  And if you were a regular, we knew what you liked. We knew what you were going to order. Sometimes we would have it set up at the table before you even got there, make you feel real special, but also charge you for it. And it's so funny that they were like, you know what? He is our best collection plate because he gets all the money out of them. Somebody tried to get slick and throw in a dollar bill. You're like, uh-uh, Bookie.

• 5:56Speaker 06

  Sure, he's got a little.

• 5:57Laci Mosley?

  What happened? Does the Lord not bless you this week? Because you got the blessing back to get it back.

• 6:02Speaker 05

  Tie, get that tie the up, please.

• 6:05Laci Mosley?

  You know, God told me he had a blessing for you, but it definitely wasn't a dollar blessing. So I just want you to think about that. I'm coming back.

• 6:12Speaker 06

  I'll make, I'll make a round. I'll go in a circle.

• 6:14Speaker 05

  I also would let people take the plate. And you, I, they were told like, like, you know, you like pass it down the aisle. There's people on each side of it. Like, I would grip it. Like, I'd be like fully, I took it so seriously and set all these rules that I gave myself.

• 6:27Speaker 06

  Like, no wonder you had anxiety. You're sweaty. My god.

• 6:30Laci Mosley?

  Yeah, you were doing a shakedown. That's why you had anxiety. Typically, you just pass the plate from one end so everybody can kind of do a fake hand motion if they don't got no cash or if they don't, you know, have it that week. But you were holding it, looking at everybody directly in their eyes. Like, meeting their retinas and shit like, mhm.

• 6:47Speaker 05

  Well, thank you for having us. We're happy to be here.

• 6:49Speaker 06

  Yes, thank you.

• 6:50Laci Mosley?

  Thank you for being here. We always ask at the top, uh, what is your relationship with scams? And Jonathan, Zachary, either one of you can go first. Oh, and if you want to ingratiate yourself with the listeners and just say your name one time before you speak next time, just because there's two of you, that way they know who is who, if they don't know already, because you have a very popular podcast. But, you know, just let the girls know, since we're not on video.

• 7:10Speaker 06

  Congregation, Jonathan here. The one K voice. Um, okay, so I'll, I'll tell my relationship to scam story first.

• 7:20Speaker 05

  Go for it.

• 7:20Speaker 06

  We'll finish with a bang. His is better than mine.

• 7:22Speaker 05

  No.

• 7:23Speaker 06

  But I.

• 7:24Laci Mosley?

  I mean, Zachary got one out already.

• 7:28Speaker 05

  I love a scam. I really do.

• 7:31Laci Mosley?

  Yes, Jonathan, what's up?

• 7:32Speaker 06

  Um, okay, so I used to work at a university. First off, already a scam. But when I first got there, I guess they send out like a, like a little promotional thing or whatever. They make the, the rounds to be like, welcome, our newest, uh, employee, Jonathan. I wasn't teaching or anything. God knows I couldn't do that.

• 7:53Laci Mosley?

  What did you do?

• 7:54Speaker 06

  I did like all of their tech stuff. Like, I did all their video editing, all of the stuff that had to go on social media. And then I wore a thousand hats that they didn't pay me enough for, but that's besides the point. So I get an email from the president of the university on my first week. And I'm like, oh, my god. Hi, first off, want to say, love a woman in power, love a woman in scam, you know? And she was like, having a conversation, we had like a quick back and forth. And then she was like, I have this whole speech going on today, which she did. Like, I could see it, it was something that was happening in our events. And she's like, and we totally forgot to get the gift cards for everybody who's coming. And I was like, oh my God, like fax, like absolutely, I can go run out and do that.

• 8:39Speaker 06

  Like, what do you need me to do? She's like, we'll reimburse you. Thank God I pumped the brakes and I double checked the email. Uh, and it was not her, it was a scammer.

• 8:49Speaker 05

  That's a really detailed scam. How do they know you got hired that fast?

• 8:53Speaker 06

  I think they're just like, it's what they do, you know? They probably got caught of it. They're like, they're on top of their, on top of their shit. But I couldn't believe that I almost fell for it. Cause I knew about scams like that. I just didn't check that the one letter in the email was, was off. But I almost fell for it too.

• 9:09Laci Mosley?

  We always say like, look at the emails, like look at the address, you know? Cause that O in Amazon could definitely be a zero. And everyone who listens to the show has heard that. But what's kind of perfect about this is like, if, because you were wearing so many hats, you know, you were the lids of the university, it's actually not. And I feel like that's most jobs now. Like, we've all had to learn, like, whatever job you're doing, if you're clocking in and clocking out, and it's not your passion, like, you do your job and you do it very well. But the second you start doing more than what's required of you, all you're doing is asking for that company to give you more responsibility and not more coin. Cause they love to be like, oh my gosh, we love how hard you work and we want to give you more responsibility. I'm like, if there's a check coming with more coin, if not, I'm gonna keep doing what the fuck I was doing, okay? Thanks, thanks, Tom. Thumbs up, I'm gonna get back to the water cooler. Like, no, what?

• 9:55Laci Mosley?

  But in this economy, like, most people, especially right now, are like, hold on to your jobs, girl. Hold on, hold on to that chair, to that desk, to that whatever. And they got you with a perfect scam because you worked in a position where you would be supporting the university. I've seen the fake gift card scam run on people in companies before, but a lot of times it didn't make sense. They like to hit like, big random corporations during the holidays. And they'll be like, oh, we have a holiday party this year. We need you to go get the gift cards for the white elephant. And that's how they'll sneak their way in. But this was kind of perfect. Like, honestly, I'm proud of you because if anyone had fallen for this, I would not have judged. Cause that was almost perfect. If they got that email right, I kind of would have been like, yeah.

• 10:35Speaker 06

  I know, I was so close and then I felt like an idiot, but, but I didn't do it, so.

• 10:40Laci Mosley?

  But reimbursement is always the perfect way to stop a scam like that. For anybody out there, like, just pretend that you're poor. Like, companies always wanna fake poor when it comes to giving you your money. But they, but you give them the work and the time on time. I gotta be at work on time, but you can give me my check on a 90-day net? Like, no.

• 10:57Speaker 06

  Exactly, yes.

• 10:59Laci Mosley?

  And they're like, what, money from us, big corp? Who was a whore?

• 11:03Speaker 06

  Not us, not big whore.

• 11:05Speaker 05

  You know what's crazy? I work to nonprofits, which I'll always be like, that was not, that was not the journey for me. Nonprofits love to pretend they don't have money. Until you see what the top of the people working at the nonprofits are pulling for salaries. I said, this is for children's welfare and you're pulling in 180? Like, this is crazy. Where's the heart in that? I'm telling you, you gotta always check with those people. Like, sometimes the money's all floating to the top. That's a scam in itself, some of these nonprofits. Not my scam.

• 11:33Laci Mosley?

  That's why I do encourage people to give locally, like, find organizations within your city that need stuff. Because if you're giving to, like, Big America or Red Cross, or, you know, like, which we've, every disaster, Red Cross had a handout. And we'd be like, y'all don't ever actually go down there and give them the money?

• 11:47Speaker 05

  Where are you, Red Cross?

• 11:48Laci Mosley?

  Where is this? This is going to the board, babes. We're gonna give in our neighborhoods, because we know y'all not a Salvation Army. We know you hate the gays, and we know you also keep all of our gay-ass money. Yeah.

• 11:57Speaker 05

  That's Annabelle. Get away from me. At Walmart, I'm all set with it, please. Pass.

• 12:01Laci Mosley?

  Y'all don't want the drag queens reading the children, but then I have to have Drag Santa outside of the Costco shaking me down?

• 12:09Laci Mosley?

  Because what do you think that is?

• 12:10Speaker 05

  On a bumper sticker. That's it, that's really it.

• 12:13Laci Mosley?

  And it's a child, it's a child. You didn't give us a belly, you didn't give us a real beard or nothing.

• 12:18Speaker 05

  The worst beard you've ever seen is that every Salvation Army guy. It's the worst, it's the, it's a tattered, like, version of Santa. They need to spend some of that money on an updated Santa outfit, and they should put the stomach in there. This is skinny, scrawny-ass Santa. I actually, that is a good observation.

• 12:33Speaker 06

  Well, it's not body-shame Santa.

• 12:34Speaker 05

  I will.

• 12:35Speaker 06

  Santa could be on Ozempic, it's very young right now.

• 12:37Laci Mosley?

  Santa's one of the few people we can body-shame.

• 12:41Speaker 06

  Don't take that away.

• 12:43Laci Mosley?

  That's all we have, Jonathan. What do you mean we can't body-shame Santa? Okay? That bitch has rosacea, and only him.

• 12:52Laci Mosley?

  Everyone else, you're fine. We all have different beautiful bodies that we celebrate, but not Santa, not that ugly hoe.

• 12:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah. Keep him humble, keep him humble, everybody.

• 12:59Laci Mosley?

  He's a burglar, we can body-shame him.

• 13:01Speaker 06

  Literally breaking into houses.

• 13:03Laci Mosley?

  Yeah, and eating your food. He could just break in, no, he also has to have a snack, please.

• 13:10Laci Mosley?

  But so, but Jonathan, I'm glad you didn't get scammed. Did you do anything to report it? Did you respond or did you just kind of just let it go as a mull again?

• 13:17Speaker 06

  Um, I hung my head low and then I walked into my manager's office, who was a nun at the time, believe it or not. Yeah, so I said, hey, sis.

• 13:24Laci Mosley?

  Sister Mary Claire, okay.

• 13:26Speaker 06

  Yes, and, uh, and I told her what happened and she was like, oh, stupid people fall for those all the time, but you're not one of those stupid people. And I was like, you know what? No, I'm not.

• 13:36Speaker 05

  It was a good way to like get your like foot grounded in it and be like, look, I'm really smart and detail oriented. It actually made you look stronger if you think about it.

• 13:42Laci Mosley?

  She didn't have to be shady with it though, but you know what? Nuns were never supposed to be non-judgmental. They reserved that for Jesus. They were like, no, we will judge you.

• 13:51Laci Mosley?

  We'll hit you with a little ruler, we'll judge you. That's, I'm not God.

• 13:54Speaker 06

  I still, I can't, that was a whole lifetime ago. I can't believe I did that.

• 13:57Laci Mosley?

  What about you, Zachariah?

• 13:59Speaker 05

  Um, so I think I was the scammer in this one, unfortunately. It was me.

• 14:04Laci Mosley?

  No, love it. Is it past, is it past the statute of limitations?

• 14:08Speaker 05

  I think so.

• 14:09Laci Mosley?

  Okay, I'm the problem, it's me. We love it.

• 14:11Speaker 05

  Yeah, no one lost any money. I think maybe the company did. I, I was real desperate when I was looking for jobs. I've worked a thousand different like random jobs and I was always on these websites that would like, um, partner you up with the, like, uh, like online, like based jobs. They didn't have to be in person. So when I was 19 years old, I was living on my own. I was trying to pay myself through college. So I found this job for this horoscope app that was hiring people that were, um, very well-versed and into astrology. And I'm an Aquarius and that's all I can say about that. Like, I know who I am. I sit in my truth. Everybody else, that's your business. I don't want to get involved with yours.

• 14:52Laci Mosley?

  I think that's a part of this job though, Zachariah. I think you, you gotta get involved in their, in their zodiac business.

• 14:58Speaker 05

  Of cour-, essentially it was, but rent had to be paid. And I said, let me just fill out this application. I'm not gonna get it. I get the interview and I scammed them completely by like really talking on my ass the entire time about my thoughts on astrology and all this different like backing I had and all this research and how interested I wasn't it. And at the time, the company had acquired this like massive document that came from China that was all written in Chinese. And it was like they were going to translate this document and basically use all this like information to kind of like, um, like push this app out. But I was hired to run their social media at the time and to do like four like tweets, Instagram posts, and kind of just like draw engagement to

• 15:40Speaker 05

  the app. So they were like, hey, can you help like help with the translation be smooth about it, but also at the same time, can you write all these social posts and we'll pay you like $600 every two weeks. At the time I was like, yes, this is going to be my rent. I'll absolutely absolutely do. So I signed on for it. And I didn't know what I was doing. And I worked there for about like four or five months. I put out hundreds of pieces of content that were truly how I was feeling. And at the time, I had an ex who was a Scorpio who I hated. For five months, if you were following this app through or on their socials, and you felt like Scorpios were being targeted, you were. Like literally, I would be like, I would come up with prompts. I'll be like,

• 16:25Speaker 05

  oh, like, like, oh, who, who is looking for, who's having like a great month, or who's like entering a great week. And I would just be like, I don't know, I haven't said Aries in a while. Aries, like, and I would just throw out bullshit on bullshit. And like regardless of how I feel about astrology, there is some sort of science and there are like, like cross sections where there's, there's outcomes. Yeah, I mean, I mean, none of that. I would just say what was on my heart that day. And there was always hate on my heart for Scorpios that five month period. So truly, a Scorpio's got it the worst. Aquarius, we really, we had a good six months. Nothing bad happened to us then.

• 17:02Laci Mosley?

  I love that you're like, Aquarius, you're coming into some money. Scorpio, if you live in New York City, you should consider moving out of the state.

• 17:10Speaker 05

  I was like, bad day for Scorpio again. Really reflect on what's happening right now and try to make some life changes because you're on the wrong path. And I just kept saying wrong path.

• 17:21Laci Mosley?

  Wrong path to somebody. Scorpio, do you feel like tension is surrounding all of your relationships? That's because it is, and it's you.

• 17:31Speaker 06

  Your ex is reading, I'm like, this is oddly supposed to be.

• 17:34Speaker 05

  Hateful Scorpio, and they'd be like, happy birthday to Capricorn Renee Zellweger.

• 17:41Laci Mosley?

  Like Scorpio, do you love to drink milk out of the carton? It's poison. Everything's just very specific to them. I mean, hey, you don't know, that might have helped some Scorpios get their lives together, you know? Make some better choices. Clearly, they don't have the best reputation of the Zodiac signs, so.

• 17:59Speaker 05

  Actually, during my performances, all they cared about was metrics. And I think people share things that they can relate to. And I was doing, they'd always be like, oh, Zach, great job on socials. And they'd move on to the next person and be like, thank you. To this day, couldn't even tell you my birth chart because my mom, every time I call her, I'm like, what time was I born? And she's like, stop asking me stupid questions. And I'm like, okay, like, I don't know if it was 8:30 or 6:30, is it AM or PM? I don't even know where I land in all this. So how am I supposed to write about Capricorn?

• 18:29Laci Mosley?

  I love this. I wouldn't even say that what you did was a scam though, Zach, right? Because technically, you did do the post and you gave, and like astrology is one of those things that is so nebulous that it is kind of like, take it or leave it, or you don't necessarily, like, I don't think anyone can be an expert in it. It's kind of like, that's kind of the beauty of it is, you know, you burn some sage or you get some rose quartz. So it's whatever you make it and whatever you believe. So I fuck with that. I think that's cool. I think you did, I think you brightened a lot of people's days, especially if they were Capricorns.

• 18:59Speaker 05

  Wait, imagine if it says, like, I look at my, like, my, like, my write-up today? And it's like, you will, you will receive validation today that you've never ever. Thank you for validating that because honestly, I'm not. I was, I was doing the best I could under the circumstances and rent was due and I, I took the job.

• 19:15Laci Mosley?

  Yeah.

• 19:15Speaker 05

  Whether I knew or not. And I kinda, I did learn a little bit on the fly, but I should, I should go back and check. I wonder if those posts are still up. That company's gone under though.

• 19:23Speaker 06

  We checked. We tried to look for it. It's not there.

• 19:25Laci Mosley?

  I'm glad they have though, because typically those companies are just like data mining and they're just selling your information. I had to get rid of CoStar because it started reading my text messages and stuff. Yeah. And like the person that I would talk to the most at that time was my assistant. And then like her name would start showing up in my CoStar stuff. Like you might have tension with, um, I'll just call her Rebecca. You might have tension with Rebecca, but it's really da, da, da, da. And I was like, what the fuck? And it was only doing that because that was like someone who's pinned in my phone, who I talk to every single day about work. So I was like, what the fuck? Yeah, no, it was, it was, delete those apps. All they wanted is your info.

• 20:01Speaker 05

  No, I wonder if that's why CoStar was so popular because I think it was like such a moment, but I wonder if that was a feature that people like, obviously I do think that's gross, but I wonder if that's what hooked people. They're like, what are they gonna say about? That's so weird.

• 20:13Speaker 06

  That is weird. I also, I thought you were talking about OnStar, like in your car.

• 20:18Laci Mosley?

  They're all still listening to you.

• 20:21Speaker 05

  Help, help.

• 20:23Laci Mosley?

  It's not just when you need them. OnStar is like, we always on bitch. And you the star.

• 20:29Laci Mosley?

  Scans.

• 20:35Speaker 00

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  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

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  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you are not alone.

• 22:03Laci Mosley?

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

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  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

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• 23:04Laci Mosley?

  And let's get into my favorite segment of the life of this podcast, Historic Hoodwinks. This is where I will regale Zachariah and Jonathan with a famous con caper group of criminals. We'll get their opinions all throughout. Maybe we love them, maybe we hate them. We don't know yet. But this one kind of hits close to home because I love Beyonce. And this is not Beyonce, but it's a man that she's been known to associate with. We're talking about students who attended Jay-Z's Roc Nation School at Long Island University.

• 23:39Laci Mosley?

  So this is that man that she's been known to hang around with.

• 23:43Speaker 05

  She's got to cut him loose.

• 23:45Laci Mosley?

  I've heard they share some children.

• 23:49Speaker 05

  Just a few, just a few.

• 23:51Laci Mosley?

  Just a few. But this has nothing to do with her. This is about Mr. Jay-Z. So the kids who attended the Roc Nation School at Long Island University were promised a debt-free education, but they still owe thousands of dollars for some reason. So typically, when people say you're going to have a debt-free education, you shouldn't owe anything because debt is when you owe stuff. So already sounds like people were misled. I know some people don't like Jay-Z's hair, but I'm kind of for it because I feel like if he had a low fade, he would look older. I don't know, am I wrong?

• 24:24Speaker 05

  I think it looks, I actually love his hair. And that's been a discourse for a couple of years now, but I don't see the issue with it. And it looks in this, it's getting even longer, obviously, as they're growing out. But I think it looks like it makes him look more artsy in a way.

• 24:38Laci Mosley?

  Yeah, like Basquiat light, like, you know.

• 24:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, and you're with Beyonce, so it's like step it up at all times. I thought this was a good move just purely on that. So I'm into the hair, I have to say.

• 24:49Laci Mosley?

  Because he's older than her, so he got to stay looking fresh because Beyonce looks fantastic. So I'm like, you know, this is like if Basquiat had to go to like multiple board meetings and then, and then the club and then a car. You know, you could wear this to a lot of different places, you know, church, like Easter Sunday.

• 25:04Speaker 05

  He's giving in this picture, NFT dealer in this. That's what I see.

• 25:10Laci Mosley?

  Not arms dealer, NFT. Yeah, he's at Art Basel, running it up. Exactly that. Tracks, tracks fully. So Jay-Z's Roc Nation launched a School of Music, Sports and Entertainment at Long Island University's downtown Brooklyn campus in 2021, and will graduate its first class of students this year in 2025. So we have a video touting how cool the school is. And if you told me, like, I could go to a Brooklyn college and get Roc Nation education, I kind of would be down for that if I was specifically interested in, like, sports or entertainment or, you know, music. Seems better than, like, you know, being on the streets and, you know, having drug dealers, bankroll your whole career. So, OK, let's play a little bit of this. So this is Long Island University.

• 25:54Speaker 00

  All right, everyone, let's jump into another incredible program. The Roc Nation School of Music, Sports and Entertainment. A remarkable 25% of students receive a full tuition scholarship.

• 26:07Laci Mosley?

  25% get full scholarships.

• 26:09Speaker 00

  The school's director here to tell us how music led to Jay-Z's

• 26:14Laci Mosley?

  They got a white lady in a blazer. That's how you know it's legit.

• 26:18Speaker 00

  The entertainment industry's greatest talents. After that, Tyler, a freshman in the program, will share more about his experiences coming into the program. Tressa, why don't you start us off?

• 26:29Laci Mosley?

  He doesn't know yet. Tyler came from Raleigh, North Carolina, so he's an out-of-state student.

• 26:35Speaker 02

  Thanks, Alex. I'm excited to introduce you to the Roc Nation School of Music, Sports and Entertainment.

• 26:40Laci Mosley?

  It looks beautiful. It does.

• 26:42Speaker 02

  Global entertainment company, Roc Nation. From the start, students are set up for success.

• 26:47Laci Mosley?

  So we got Tressa talking to a black student with a backwards hat. He's into the art.

• 26:52Speaker 02

  Students enjoy a broad range of unique collectives, like the business of Sean Carter, the monetization of music, and women in music that are available only here at the Roc Nation School.

• 27:02Laci Mosley?

  OK, diversity.

• 27:03Speaker 02

  And learning's not limited to the classroom. Our internship program allows students to gain practical experience.

• 27:08Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 27:09Speaker 02

  And forge meaningful relationships.

• 27:10Laci Mosley?

  Now, let's pause it here. I do want to say, you know, there used to be that big Twitter discourse, like, would you take a million dollars or a dinner with Jay-Z? Where he like tells you everything that made him like such a successful multimillionaire. The School of Roc Nation is offering the course of Jay-Z. Obviously, for less than a million, if you're going on a full tuition scholarship. So this seems promising.

• 27:32Speaker 05

  Right. And I'm sure like financial issues were the furthest from people's minds because he's like, isn't he like a billionaire? So you would never think that could even like happen. But this was also like 2021, so it was right after COVID, the big COVID, you know, chapter one.

• 27:46Laci Mosley?

  And then you're getting told you can go to a university in person. We saw a few masks scattered in there. You can go to a university in person, you can get a very highly specialized education. Because a lot of people who want to go into entertainment, as we all know, there's no set path. Like, you know, people end up where they are. It's like kind of just throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks. So if you have a university that's like, we're going to put you on to games specifically, you're not going to have to rap, you know, in the church parking lot. You're not going to have to sell CDs out of the trunk of your car. Like, you can find a clear path to, you know, success in this career. Then that would, you know, be a peak of my interest. I'd be like, okay.

• 28:22Speaker 05

  You get the syllabus and it's like in studio time. It's like, that's pretty awesome. If you're like, that does, yeah, I like that. It's like credits to like to record. I think that's, it sounds amazing. Too good to be true, though.

• 28:34Laci Mosley?

  See, I hate to hear that too, because I was, I was loving this for them. Because, you know, it's not Hustle and Flow. They don't got to buy a bunch of egg crepes and kill them fans. And make, and make, you know, rap music in their closet in the sweaty Louisiana heat or something, you know? Like, they're getting to do it in an air-conditioned studio with like state-of-the-art equipment. And so, as many as 50 students from the inaugural class were awarded what they believed a debt-free scholarship by Sean Carter's Entertainment Company. The students thought that meant that no loans or grants would be required for their degrees. But at least a dozen students are now claiming they were billed by the school for thousands of dollars, forcing them to either borrow from the bank or leave the program altogether. So it sounds like Jay-Z has this like kind of brand initiative. Happening at this university. He says that if you're awarded this scholarship,

• 29:19Laci Mosley?

  then all of your tuition is paid for. And then at some point, Long Island University has slid into the chat and was like, uh, yeah, it's, yeah, free, free, free. But we do got some bills here that, um, y'all gotta pay or, or you can't come back. Um, so the promises, the hope scholarship, not y'all calling it the hope scholarship. Like, I hope y'all get this scholarship.

• 29:40Speaker 06

  No, they're like, we hope it actually works out in our favor.

• 29:43Laci Mosley?

  We never said guaranteed scholarship. We said hope.

• 29:47Laci Mosley?

  So the hope scholarship was granted to the university's highest need students, and it promised that recipients would graduate debt free. But at least 12 students have spoken out publicly and told Gothamists that they ended up owing anywhere from $5,000 to $39,000.

• 30:04Laci Mosley?

  $39,000 is very much on the scale of not debt free at all.

• 30:08Speaker 06

  No, not at all. That's, that is crazy. And it's also like, you can get, you know, help before you go to the school. Like, that was something that I fumbled the bag with. Cause I actually, literally yesterday. So, sorry, I don't want to side rail.

• 30:23Laci Mosley?

  No, we, we love a side. Let's go on a side quest.

• 30:26Speaker 06

  My first year of college, I went to the Art Institute of Philadelphia. And, um, they were not nationally accredited. The school days were so intense. We had four hour classes, every single class. We had Saturday classes. We had summer classes. We only had one week off, like in between the semesters. Yeah, it was crazy. But we were supposed to be done in three years, whatever. So then, um, this, the teachers started going on strike, right? And all of the students, yeah, and all of my friends were like, hey, we gotta get out of here. And I'm like, I really am like not that smart when it comes to this stuff. I was like, oh, I thought we all had a good thing going here. Like, why are we all like, leaving? So I go to try to leave the school, but they weren't nationally accredited. So I got held back, which ended up screwing me later on.

• 31:09Speaker 06

  But, um, they ended up getting sued. And now the school doesn't exist anymore. I think the Art Institute somewhere exists, but the one in Philly doesn't exist. And I ended up at the end of last year being like, okay. Let me just pay off the rest of my debts in full. I graduated in 2016 and so I did. And then I get an email being like, hey, you're like technically debt free. However, the school that you went to the first time is getting sued. So until they settle out of court, you're still gonna owe that interest. That's gonna continue to accrue while they're still in court. How crazy is that? I was like, I don't know how that works. So I followed up with questions.

• 31:50Speaker 06

  I kid you not, yesterday, I'm on the subway, listening to this very podcast. And I get a text from my mom, something came in the mail. And they were like, hey, you're, you're good. You're gonna be refunded. Literally, I didn't even tell, I didn't even tell Zach that. That was literally yesterday while I was listening to this podcast.

• 32:07Laci Mosley?

  Oh, Jonathan, what a blessing. Also, how are they gonna have you paying for school? That's not school no more. Where is this money going? There's no institution. Y'all have been deinstitutionalized.

• 32:16Speaker 06

  I know, I don't. It was honestly really messy and very stressful, but.

• 32:20Laci Mosley?

  Yeah.

• 32:20Speaker 05

  This is like a long running thing. Like, I feel like so many schools have gone through this. It's like, these like, they're not accredited.

• 32:26Speaker 06

  And then I thought I was gonna graduate the second college on time. And they were like, well, you weren't nationally accredited. So not all your credits came through. So we can't help you out. And you also, yeah.

• 32:36Laci Mosley?

  Nationally, like not having accreditation usually already means the school is on shaky ground. And it's funny to me that they were like, oh, we gonna get y'all out in three years. It almost feels like they knew that the clock was ticking for them to run as much money as they could. They're like, now we got Saturday classes, Sunday classes. Y'all, y'all got y'all Monday midnight, Monday midnight class. Everybody, we gotta get as much education in as possible, cuz they locking the doors.

• 32:59Speaker 06

  That is so funny. Never thought about that. You're probably right.

• 33:02Laci Mosley?

  They had just enough money to pay the teachers. And then as soon as that coin ran out, the teachers started going on the strike. And they were like, wait, well, follow the teachers out and get, get the last of the syllabus as they making they sign. Because we about to run out of coin.

• 33:15Speaker 05

  That's a mess, that's a mess.

• 33:18Laci Mosley?

  But I'm glad it worked out for you. That makes me really happy that it worked out for you.

• 33:22Speaker 05

  Cause in this, in this case, we'll see, we're, we're seeing what's happening to these students.

• 33:26Laci Mosley?

  I just feel like if these are already students who are in the highest ranks of financial need, and then you're saddling them with debt, and just like you were talking about this Jonathan right now, with interest rates being something absolutely independent of the principal amount that you owe, debt, that's why when people talk about, oh, going to college and getting a loan, and it's always haters, like, I, I've never understood this. Like, people are like, I paid off my loans, okay, and what does that have to do with somebody else's loans? Like, you don't, you want them to have to pay them off and, and be in debt forever because you paid off your loans? Like, that has nothing, if they pay them off, if they die tomorrow, if they get a forgiveness, it has absolutely no bearings on your life, you weird little hater. Like, go, go find joy, go find joy.

• 34:03Speaker 05

  Yeah, exactly, literally. It's like when you go to the grocery store and they're like, I don't want the cashier sitting, like, why?

• 34:09Laci Mosley?

  Why?

• 34:10Speaker 05

  Why do you care?

• 34:11Laci Mosley?

  Why do you care?

• 34:13Speaker 05

  Very weird.

• 34:14Laci Mosley?

  That has always bothered me, people like that. I'm like, get a fucking life, bro. You are in people's business way too much. And, and that could be said here because when you think about somebody who's been saddled with $39,000 of loan, who absolutely was not prepared for that, now we're talking about the interest on these loans that they've taken out. If they are in a position of extreme financial hardship, I doubt they got the lowest interest rate. They're probably not sitting on one of them 2% joints, they're probably sitting on something much higher, which means they're gonna pay that principal several times over, and they weren't prepared for that.

• 34:43Speaker 05

  Yeah, and also too, like, this industry, specifically even with like, what they're probably going for, it's not the most consistent, and it is a really super risky thing to take loans out on.

• 34:52Laci Mosley?

  It's a gauge economy.

• 34:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, so I think to go in there with the expectation that I'm there for free, and then to get that, and also, what, 12 people came forward? I feel like a couple people may have not come forward based on maybe like, legal, like, counsel.

• 35:06Speaker 06

  You don't wanna burn a bridge with somebody you might be working with.

• 35:09Speaker 05

  Not with Jay-Z.

• 35:10Speaker 06

  Break it in, you know, make it break.

• 35:13Laci Mosley?

  Yeah, he's a powerhouse in the industry, and like, I could completely understand not wanting to, like, put any dirt on this person's name, especially if you're not necessarily sure that they're connected to whatever this scam. But you're just trying to like, figure out how you're going to pay for your life now that you're saddled with debt that you were completely unprepared for. Also, getting a loan in duress, not the best place to make negotiating decisions because you need the loan, otherwise you can't go to school. So who even knows what that looks like? And loans are predatory as fuck, you know?

• 35:44Speaker 05

  Absolutely. Yes, they are.

• 35:45Laci Mosley?

  So several of the students did transfer or even dropped out of school because of unexpected fees. And it turns out the school only meant to promise free tuition, not fully free college experiences. So students expecting to not need any loans were surprised by room and board and associated living costs. Now, when something says full tuition, that typically is what full tuition means, is that you don't have to pay to get your education here. Now, you're gonna have to find somewhere to stay, and Brooklyn is not cheap, okay? Every time you see a new coffee shop pop up, that rent going up. Every time you see somebody with just like wild colored hair, you know, they got a job where they don't have to have hair that's not green and blue and red at the same time. That means rent's going up. You see a white lady jogging at dusk, rent is going up.

• 36:31Laci Mosley?

  So I can only imagine.

• 36:33Speaker 05

  That's so funny. That's so true, though. Oh, my God. And it's in downtown Brooklyn, too, which is like a very expensive built up. It's like mini Manhattan over there, so.

• 36:41Laci Mosley?

  Yeah.

• 36:41Speaker 05

  We've passed it before. You know exactly where it is.

• 36:45Laci Mosley?

  So many Hope Scholarship recipients were accepted via emails that said, because you are a Hope Scholar, your tuition is fully covered. This means you do not need to make a tuition deposit, and we can enroll you in classes right away. Now, they should have also said room and board needs to be covered. However, the language that they use there technically isn't wrong. It may be misleading to the young students, but it's not wrong. So, an annual undergraduate tuition at LIU Brooklyn costs $40,000. That's what the Hope Scholarship actually covers. But the cost for housing, a meal plan, student health insurance, and a full-time university fee is an additional $22,000. So, let's say you get your own apartment and you work. If you want health insurance, you're still gonna have to pay for that.

• 37:30Laci Mosley?

  And there's a full-time university fee that everyone has to pay for. And so they didn't say that in their email.

• 37:36Speaker 06

  Mm-hmm.

• 37:37Laci Mosley?

  So bait and switch. One of the first students to be offered one of these scholarships was a woman named Justice Stevenson, who got a text from LIU president Kimberly Klein, which said, "I tried to reach you by phone. Roc Nation School at LIU is awarding you a full tuition scholarship. You will receive full tuition and be able to graduate without debt." So now throwing in that "graduate without debt" at the end is like fully a falsehood.

• 38:02Speaker 06

  Wait, is nobody getting anything in the mail anymore?

• 38:05Laci Mosley?

  I didn't know you was getting acceptance letters via text.

• 38:08Speaker 06

  No, that's kinda crazy.

• 38:09Speaker 05

  It also is, it's so misleading, the adults in this situation, who are sending these like, I don't know, these like promises to literal children, who are still like walking halls and going to Wendy's. Like, you know what I mean? This is like weird behavior. It seems like they knew all along that this was gonna be a way for them to come up. You know what I mean? Especially like, "Did you check it? Are you sure? You wanna come, right?" It just, but you knew all along this was the plan, so...

• 38:35Laci Mosley?

  Like, you thumbs up the text that we sent you, and you sent a celebration emoji with a smiley face blowing on the little celebration stick. So that was a full acceptance. I don't know what you thought, cuz that's weird as hell. When I got accepted into school, it was like you got letters, and you were like, "Oh, if the letter's thick, you know that's an acceptance." Or if it's skinny, it could still be an acceptance too. But that was like the metric. It wasn't like, "Oh, y'all check y'all texts yet? Oh, I'm on D and D. Let me see if I got into college." What?

• 39:03Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 39:03Speaker 06

  I wonder if, well, I don't know if you're gonna get into this part, but I wonder if they didn't wanna send it through the mail, because then it would like be stamped and it would be like a federal thing.

• 39:12Laci Mosley?

  Ooh, yeah, cuz you know, mail fraud is a very big thing. That's how they get ya. We don't have text mail, test message fraud yet, but mail fraud, the girls will pull up without the doors, and they will throw you inside.

• 39:23Laci Mosley?

  You, Jonathan, you're onto something there. You very much are. So, justice, this is the, the girl student who got the text message. Had been on the fence about going to college at all, but that message convinced her to go if she could earn a degree in vocal performance with no depth. She enrolled the fall of 2021. Yeah, this text message that she got from Kimberly Klein, who's wearing a pink blazer. I'm so sorry, I've never seen a professional woman in a pink blazer. If you got on a pink blazer, I know you're a scammer. It's hot pink too? Mm-mm. Girl, will you get that fashion Nova? No. Absolutely not.

• 39:55Speaker 05

  I think it's fun. It's like, come to our school, we're fine.

• 39:58Laci Mosley?

  Yeah, and why do you gotta do that much convincing? Okay, at least Teresa had on her gray blazer. She was giving like, white lady professional student realness. This pink blazer is telling me, they pulled your ass right up out of Yonkers and you grabbed the first blazer on your, you had just wore that blazer to the club. You was at three before 11, ladies get one Jell-O shot, and then you shook it off. You shook off the glitter and you wore that shit to work.

• 40:23Speaker 05

  That business casual club wear of 2011. She was in it, she loved it.

• 40:28Laci Mosley?

  Please be serious. It was bachata night at the hookah spot and they told you they got a position open at LIU and you shook that shit off and you went into work.

• 40:35Speaker 05

  There's no more hookah anymore. We're not, the kids aren't going to hookah anymore and this is where the downfall is. It all started with the loss of hookah.

• 40:43Laci Mosley?

  Well, now they got, we got a hookah in our hand. You got a little hookah in.

• 40:46Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's not social. I want the tinfoil with the orange in a dark room with blasting bass music and I'm sneaking in my own alcohol. This is what was fundamental at 19 and this is why they're getting scammed. I'm telling you, bring hookah back.

• 40:58Laci Mosley?

  We're losing recipes, we're losing recipes.

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• 42:03Speaker 02

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• 42:18Speaker 07

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• 42:29Speaker 02

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• 42:34Speaker 05

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• 43:00Speaker 00

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• 43:24Laci Mosley?

  Real cash, only on Underdog. Unleash your dog. Eighteen plus, terms apply. Top grails are extremely rare.

• 43:34Laci Mosley?

  So Justice got to school, right? In fall of 2021. And she started to notice unexpected charges to her account. And in 2023, she reached out to Klein, Ms. Pink Blaze her, directly with questions about her scholarship. So Klein texted back, I am in DC in meetings with Congress. I will reach out to you on Friday. Okay, DC meetings with Congress. Girl, you was at somebody dinner getting lit with your pink Blaze her.

• 44:00Speaker 06

  But texting, we're still going back to the text. That is so crazy. She just texts. Text the dean.

• 44:06Laci Mosley?

  You were two lemon drops in with some lobbyists. Please be serious.

• 44:10Speaker 06

  The lemon drop lobbyist.

• 44:12Laci Mosley?

  Please be serious. So Justice, surprise, surprise, hasn't heard from Klein since then. Not you ghosting Klein. Now you done got this girl to come to this damn school. You gonna ghost her while you at martini hour in DC. You ain't right.

• 44:28Laci Mosley?

  So Justice says she was later informed that she owed $26,000 in student debt. She will graduate this year with $5,000 of debt after proof that she was offered a debt-free education by the school and negotiating the fees down. So that text ended up working in her favor because the text did say debt free.

• 44:47Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 44:48Laci Mosley?

  So this is Fox 5. This is reached Fox 5. Okay. And now we're back with Tressa, the dean of the blonde lady with her gray blazer.

• 44:56Speaker 06

  What's your Tressa?

• 44:58Laci Mosley?

  What's up, Tressa?

• 45:00Speaker 02

  So Roc Nation has been an incredible partner. And I think that's the benefit of having an active partner.

• 45:05Laci Mosley?

  Oh, Tressa, you stressed out. You were different.

• 45:07Speaker 05

  Tucker Cunningham said the courses are rooted in theory.

• 45:10Speaker 06

  She's exhausted.

• 45:11Speaker 02

  She's stressed out. With Lyndon and Kennedy, with Conde Nast, with V-Files, with JP Morgan Chase to create courses that are relevant to students, that are interesting to students, but equally as applicable and useful in their day to day lives and their soon to be careers.

• 45:26Laci Mosley?

  Did she say anything?

• 45:28Speaker 06

  No, but I was, I bought in. I was bought in. This is why I'm just so easily scamable. And I shouldn't say that out loud on a public record. But I'm like, but listen to all this. It sounds great.

• 45:37Speaker 05

  Well, yeah, she's like, they're basing it off of like those buzzwords. Like I heard Condon asked and Jay-Z's involved. It's like, you want to be famous? You want to be in entertainment? This is the place to go. Is this how, this is, is it the same interview that we watched before? Is she in this another gray blazer?

• 45:51Laci Mosley?

  This is another gray blazer, Henny. Cause now she's got a pussy bow, um, button down underneath. So she's really giving more professionalism. See, cause before she just had on a dress and this is more of like a sweater type blazer. She said, let me throw my real structured blazer and a pussy willow like, you know, so the girls know I'm giving professional. And then she said, I'm gonna say like JP Morgan and I'm gonna say, you know, Goldman Sachs. And I'm gonna say synergy and I'm gonna say.

• 46:16Speaker 05

  She said, it's Fox 5. We got into it on Major Fox 5.

• 46:20Speaker 06

  They were old maiden type of shoot.

• 46:22Laci Mosley?

  And shout out to Fox 5's editor who was like, this is a story about rap music. So give me something with some bass. Give me some good little hi hat. But equally as applicable and useful in their daily lives and they're soon to be. The news music is not to throw ass too typically. It'll be like.

• 46:37Speaker 05

  Let them try something.

• 46:38Laci Mosley?

  This one, they're like.

• 46:43Laci Mosley?

  Like, what is this? Anthic.

• 46:49Laci Mosley?

  What's going on?

• 46:51Speaker 05

  That is ridiculous.

• 46:52Laci Mosley?

  So did this hilarious, whoever they are. So, uh, this is obviously trust of trying to like clean up the image a little bit. Like she cleaned up her blazer game. At least she knows better than to give us a hot pink moment. So, you know, okay, cool. So at least four other students said they dropped out of the school completely or transferred to other schools due to the unexpected cost. One Hope scholar said she abandoned plans to study veterinarian medicine because LIU's statement that she'd graduate debt free. She transferred to a different university two years later due to the $19,000 in unexpected charges from LIU. Now, I wish she had done with the girl, what, um, Ms. Justice did with her receipts and at least tried to get some of her coin back. Cause it sounds like she just took that debt with her and was like, I'm not gonna get more debt.

• 47:36Laci Mosley?

  But now I'm gonna go work on the cats and the dogs like I had intended.

• 47:39Speaker 05

  Yeah, that would have been smarter for her for sure.

• 47:41Speaker 06

  I wonder if like the verbiage wasn't the same across the board. If she like, didn't have anything to prove, but that's like, that's messed up.

• 47:48Laci Mosley?

  Yeah, maybe Klein was in beta. Maybe she was a little hungover from hookah night when she sent that text. She was like, damn, we gotta get some more enrollment. And then she was like, OK, maybe I shouldn't do it like this. Somebody was like, girl, it's not completely dead for each. She's like, OK, it's just one person. She probably not even gonna notice.

• 48:02Speaker 06

  She lies. She's like, I drafted it. I didn't.

• 48:04Speaker 05

  Well, thank God she saved onto that text for all those years. I mean, she should have deleted that or something. You know what I mean? Or print it out or something. That's crazy.

• 48:10Laci Mosley?

  Yeah, when she got ghosted by Ms. Klein, I think she started taking screenshots. She was like, ah, girl. And you're not getting away in that loud ass blazer. We know where you are. We know where you are.

• 48:20Speaker 06

  Lemon drops.

• 48:22Laci Mosley?

  Listen, so now we're getting to no recording studio. OK, so the education facilities themselves left something to be desired. Now, remember, we watched the video and there was very much a recording studio in there. So the Hopes, we have a Hope scholar here, Jordan Drone, who raps under the name Iconic in all caps. Iconic Jordan, that's their rap name. So he spent his first semester with his friends, piecing together equipment to build the school's recording studio in an abandoned student radio station when they learned the school didn't actually have a recording studio. So now, wait a minute. In the video, there was very much a recording studio.

• 49:00Speaker 05

  Was that a set? They went on location to film that?

• 49:03Laci Mosley?

  Because now we're in the auditorium, which like all schools have those. But Tressa definitely walked through a recording studio. Now, wait a minute. Do we see Tressa in the recording studio?

• 49:13Speaker 06

  What if we never saw it?

• 49:14Speaker 05

  No, she's at Topgolf. Like, what are you doing, girl?

• 49:17Laci Mosley?

  We have B-roll of students in a recording studio, but Tressa isn't in this B-roll.

• 49:23Speaker 05

  It's giving royalty free.

• 49:24Speaker 06

  Stop. Is it stock footage?

• 49:26Speaker 05

  It looked like, it actually looked like stock footage. And they slowed her down to match up the pacing of everything.

• 49:33Speaker 06

  Oh, no.

• 49:34Laci Mosley?

  Oh, no.

• 49:35Speaker 05

  See, that feels right there grounds to like sue because now it's false advertising.

• 49:39Speaker 06

  Wait, it's not even filmed at the same frame rate. I could tell.

• 49:42Laci Mosley?

  Oh, it's not.

• 49:44Speaker 06

  I feel bamboozled.

• 49:46Laci Mosley?

  And none of the school's officials are anywhere near. Was that at least the same black guy in the studio?

• 49:52Speaker 06

  An actor. Well, they could be like, well, it wasn't at the school. They were doing a flashback.

• 49:57Speaker 05

  That's him.

• 49:58Speaker 06

  To when he.

• 49:58Laci Mosley?

  Yeah.

• 49:59Speaker 06

  I can't.

• 50:00Laci Mosley?

  Damn, and not they got merch. They got all this merch, but they ain't got a recording studio?

• 50:05Speaker 06

  They gotta make money somehow.

• 50:06Speaker 05

  They gotta get the investment up.

• 50:09Laci Mosley?

  And you telling me I gotta pay fees to go to this damn school? But when I get there, y'all got us opening Amazon packages to make a recording studio?

• 50:17Speaker 06

  Don't worry, you got a swag bag, though, with a beanie.

• 50:20Laci Mosley?

  They said, "Wear this hat while you put together this high hat." What?

• 50:26Speaker 05

  Oh, God.

• 50:27Laci Mosley?

  That ain't right. That is not right. The practice rooms that were available weren't soundproofed. No, so they gotta go get Aunt Grace. And Jordan left the program with $39,000 of student loan debt.

• 50:40Speaker 05

  Oh, no. Oh, my God.

• 50:43Laci Mosley?

  School advertising had promised guest lectures from performers like Rihanna, DJ Khalid, and the Jonas Brothers, which never happened. But students were visited by Megan Thee Stallion, Fat Joe, and Rhapsody, as well as athletes like former NFL receiver Victor Cruz and NBA shooting guard Danny Green. So they were visited by some people. Not the people they were promised, but those are Megan Thee Stallion, that's great. Fat Joe, Rhapsody, it seems like some people came and visited. Now, a guest lecture and a visitor are a little different. A visitor sounds like we might have just been taking some photos and maybe saying hello. A lecture is supposed to be, you know, a lecture with information.

• 51:19Speaker 06

  That people are now paying for.

• 51:22Laci Mosley?

  They got some club appearances. You know, the girls came and they waved.

• 51:26Speaker 06

  In the cafeteria? With a step and repeat? Yeah, she was like, "Hey," and that was really it. They're like, "Wait, can you come in the room for a minute?"

• 51:33Laci Mosley?

  No, no, no, no. Put all your Roc Nation hat and come take a picture with Fat Joe, okay? What's that? All right, that's enough. Next.

• 51:40Speaker 05

  Did Jay-Z ever come?

• 51:42Laci Mosley?

  Um, I don't know. I do not know.

• 51:44Speaker 06

  Does he know about the school, is my question.

• 51:48Laci Mosley?

  Because he's not the one speaking. We haven't seen him speak yet about it. So, tricking students. College enrollment is down, and there aren't enough students to go around, according to education experts. So, the Roc Nation school basically scammed vulnerable students into enrolling. On multiple occasions, school officials encouraged students to take out private loans to cover growing costs. One student opted to sleep on couches in student lounges for several months as his debt piled up. Bousar records shows he owes $37,000 in federal student loans.

• 52:21Laci Mosley?

  Now come sleep at the school.

• 52:23Speaker 05

  Sleeping on?

• 52:23Speaker 06

  No, that's so messed up. And then that's gonna like screw your credit as soon as you leave the doors of that school, whether you have a diploma in your hand or not. Like, that is awful.

• 52:32Laci Mosley?

  It's awful. Associate Dean of Students Nick Sava suggested in an email to him, pay, so this is to the student who had the $37,000 worth of debt who was sleeping on couches. So Nick Sava reached out to the student and said, "Pay out of pocket or take out a loan to cover the cost of housing." Sava shared a link to a private loan service with the student. These types of loans are typically like they lack income-based payment plans or a pause on interest until a student graduates. So even while you're still in school, this is the type of private loan that is accruing interest while you're getting your education.

• 53:04Speaker 06

  That is crazy.

• 53:06Laci Mosley?

  Terrible and very predatory. They're also usually ineligible for loan forgiveness programs. So this type of loan, you will have forever. The interest is already running up the second that you put the ink on the dotted line. And this is what a dean of students offered to an unhoused student who was racking up debt, even though they were promised a scholarship that would not put them in nearly this much debt.

• 53:27Speaker 06

  And I bet it was an associate link. Like, I bet he got some commission for that.

• 53:31Laci Mosley?

  Some kind of kickback, because this doesn't seem very altruistic. So one music professor who used to work at LIU Brooklyn and now works at Hofstra said, "The name of the game was to get butts in seats." And they make these promises. And so they said, "F it. We don't want a small class. We're going to admit everybody." And that's what they did. So at this point, they're just trying to get any and everybody to sign up because enrollment is low. And so they're just telling you anything to get you to LIU Brooklyn. And then once you're stuck and saddled with debt, they're like, "Well, if you want to finish your education, then go ahead and sign up for this private loan company that will start charging you and your loved ones immediately."

• 54:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, like higher education should never be in the business of business. It should just be to educate people, and that's where it gets money. I went to state school, and it was really, really cheap. And it was probably not the best quality, but it wasn't predatory. I used to get packets in the mail senior year from these schools I had never heard of that were begging me to apply, because it's just a business. They want to keep their doors open.

• 54:31Speaker 06

  I saw my school on a commercial and I was like, I would love to go there. And you already know my story. So I kinda went to this school.

• 54:39Laci Mosley?

  You know what that advertising paid off? Right, these are children. We're children at this point in time. And so thinking about, I got lucky with my parents, knowing a lot about just like financial literacy and making a choice that I would be able to sustain, you know, and wouldn't change the direction of my life. Cause my mom was like, if you wanna travel, if you wanna experiment, if you wanna have this career that obviously starts on shaky ground, then you cannot be saddled with debt because you will become a slave to that debt and you won't even have the time or the bandwidth to put towards the things that you're passionate about. And so I definitely made a strategic decision when going to school. Cause there were, there were more expensive schools that were shiny that I was considering going to. But it was like, uh, and how much I want? Nah.

• 55:18Speaker 05

  And now it doesn't even matter where you went. That's why I wish I could like shake every 18 year old and be like, in 10 years, no one's gonna care and it's never even gonna come up. So like, just be as smart with your money as possible. Even if they're promising you amazing studio time, like.

• 55:34Laci Mosley?

  After you build it. After you build the studio.

• 55:38Speaker 06

  Wait, I have a question for you really quick, Lacey, and I already know the answer, but it feels like it relates. Um, weren't you in the commercial for your?

• 55:46Laci Mosley?

  Oh my god!

• 55:46Speaker 06

  College?

• 55:48Speaker 05

  Wait, were you?

• 55:49Laci Mosley?

  Yeah.

• 55:49Speaker 05

  Oh my god.

• 55:50Speaker 06

  And weren't you not a scientist in real life?

• 55:56Laci Mosley?

  That's your crack me. Okay, yes, that's one of the scams I participated in. And they aired every like college sporting event. And I did not get paid, so I was scammed too, because that was a national commercial. I should have been racking up money. But I was, I was in a science lab with a white coat on and I was holding a beaker of some substance and hail to discovery.

• 56:21Speaker 06

  It's just like Gatorade in there.

• 56:24Laci Mosley?

  And I ain't discovered shit. And I was.

• 56:29Laci Mosley?

  I was at the business school, technically a bachelor of science, but I was at the business school and I have a performance degree. I did not discover no thing.

• 56:36Speaker 06

  Well, that was the performance you were offering. Like, that's what you were displaying, your performance. That's true, that's true.

• 56:41Laci Mosley?

  I'm sorry if y'all saw me with that beaker and y'all went to Pitt. But Pitt has a great science program. They have excellent medical school, like nursing school, top tier. So, you know, y'all fine, y'all fine if y'all went over there for that, okay? Y'all doing great. Y'all not watching the Pitt on HBO? Come on now, I did y'all a favor.

• 56:58Laci Mosley?

  The girls, the girls are doing science over there, okay? Don't even, don't you worry about it. But yes, I was in a college commercial. Damn, clocked Jonathan, clocked real bad.

• 57:06Speaker 06

  I know it.

• 57:07Laci Mosley?

  Real bad, I'm caught. So I guess technically, I can't even shade the people in this fake commercial for LIU because I would have been in there in the fake studio too, like, yeah, more bass.

• 57:19Laci Mosley?

  Turn me up, turn my headphones up.

• 57:23Laci Mosley?

  Education, JP Morgan. Like, yeah, I would have, they would have got me. They, I would have been a part of it. You're right, I'm a part of the problem.

• 57:32Laci Mosley?

  That's why I'm doing this, this is my mea culpa. So I get back.

• 57:37Laci Mosley?

  After running too many scams. So what happens now? In an anonymous letter sent in 2023 to the dean, Tressa Cunningham, that's who we saw, Tressa, who's stressa, she's stressa now. Because in that first video, she looked like she was chilling. She had like a Blaze Her sweater, it was more cash. And then she had to put on her real like Ann Taylor joint to go on Fox and, and, and tell the girls that they weren't scamming. But Tressa Cunningham, they sent a letter to her, right? 16 students criticized administrators for being hard to reach regarding registration and financial aid. Now that the first class is graduating, it's unclear how Long Island University is going to handle the debts accumulated by debt-free scholars. In 2023, they changed the description of the scholarship's website

• 58:21Laci Mosley?

  to read tuition-free education instead of debt-free education, which it should have been that the whole time. Because debt-free means debt-free. So you can't charge people for shit. It would be different if they said debt-free and then you decided to take out a loan for housing. While you were there, then you put yourself into that debt, right? But they had school fees, healthcare fees, all these types of fees that were associated with the university that they chose to be misleading about. And instead of getting back to people who are writing these letters, they're just changing the, you know, wording on their website and ghosting all of these people that they know they were manipulating into going to the school.

• 59:01Speaker 06

  It's almost like whoever wrote that, like, didn't know how to run a school.

• 59:04Laci Mosley?

  Crazy. And now Miss Pink Blazer makes even more sense. She definitely was at the hookah night. She was at the 18 and up joints or wherever they let you get a fake ID in. And she was probably passing out business cards like, you like music? You like music? You like music? I work at the school for Jay-Z.

• 59:23Speaker 06

  Boots on the ground marketing. She was in the trenches for that. And she said, I gotta fill those seats.

• 59:29Laci Mosley?

  She was at Rolling Loud like, you like doing this stuff? Text me. Text me if you want to come to my college.

• 59:37Speaker 06

  It's my personal cell.

• 59:39Laci Mosley?

  And it really was her cell. Like, ma'am, be serious.

• 59:43Speaker 06

  That's me giving away my business email. Like, I can't say anything.

• 59:48Laci Mosley?

  And we have, we have one more video here. Let's see if they've cleaned some things up. Because the graduating class is coming out. Okay, so we got people waving. Let's go, let's see. The Roc Nation School of Music, Sports and Entertainment at Long Island University is back in session. Jay-Z's Roc Nation is a global entertainment company, providing management, label, publishing, touring, film and TV services. Since 2021, its partnership with LIU also offers a world-class education in the center of downtown Brooklyn, two miles from where Jay-Z was raised in the Marcy Projects. They keep showing that studio. Now I want to pause. They did start this news segment with no music and just a college campus giving real college, right?

• 1:00:33Laci Mosley?

  And then when they start showing the Roc Nation enterprise, which is legitimate. That website's legitimate. Roc Nation has sports. They have all types of divisions that are quite successful. But they're putting them in such close conjunction to the branding of the school that it is still kind of misleading. Because like all the celebrity faces that we just saw, those aren't people who are going to the school and lecturing and stuff. Those are people who are successful at Roc Nation. Not this school.

• 1:00:57Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:00:57Speaker 05

  Cause even I'm watching that and I'm confused. Cause I'm thinking it's like, it's, it's one in the same. So it's like, it really is so misleading. So i- is Jay-Z at fault in any of this? For being in partnership with it? Can't he just write the check in blank? Because like, Title has enough money in the bank to like, clear this? Like, where's his moral obligation in all of this?

• 1:01:17Laci Mosley?

  I mean, people stay rich by not spending their own money. Um.

• 1:01:21Speaker 05

  But he's at like, a different level of rich. That like, thirty-nine thousand dollars to clear our guy who's sleeping on the couch? Like, that could just change everything. You know what I mean? Cause I think the bad branding and the bad spotlight on this is probably worse in the long run, in my opinion.

• 1:01:35Laci Mosley?

  I mean, I will say, I saw maybe one or two tweets about this. Um, I don't think it has blown up in the exponential way that would damage the brand.

• 1:01:44Speaker 06

  When this expose comes out at my.

• 1:01:47Speaker 05

  Sweet to this episode, Charles.

• 1:01:48Speaker 06

  You're doing the work.

• 1:01:49Laci Mosley?

  I don't want no smoke with that lady, husband. But, but we do need to tell the truth about what's going on at LIU.

• 1:01:54Speaker 05

  We do, we do.

• 1:01:56Laci Mosley?

  And I don't think there's anything wrong with a brand sponsorship like Roc Nation. Because it does actually help their business. If you are cultivating this hub of people who are learning the business. Because the thing about entertainment and music and sports is that it does tend to skew younger. You need young, fresh input and takes. Because the world of media is constantly changing. The way that we engage with audience and marketing with them is constantly changing. And it's always the jobless who are right up on the edge of the cutting new technology or the cutting new advertisements. Because they have more free time than the rest of us. You know what I mean? Like, I keep me a young person around that I'm like, and what are the girls doing? And then I go do what the girls are doing, okay? Uh, you know, my producer Jess, very young, cutting edge. And my little sister, I'll run things by her. I'm like, what are the children doing?

• 1:02:41Laci Mosley?

  No, I'm not wearing low-rise jeans, but what else are they doing? Like.

• 1:02:44Speaker 06

  Pink blazers.

• 1:02:46Laci Mosley?

  Yeah, are they, are they wearing pink blazers, honey? Do I need to get a pink blazer? But I think that's, that blazer is for crime. But.

• 1:02:54Laci Mosley?

  But like, in all seriousness, I think it's a great hub for him to have that pipeline. So I would hope that if he's seeing and hearing this, which I doubt that he's with all the stuff that he's got going on professionally, I'm not even too sure outside of maybe like, because even look at these advertisements that we've seen on the news. None of this is talking about how they're roping students into debt. None of that. These are still just advertisements for the program and, you know, B-roll of students on college campuses. None of this is actually addressing the fact that students have been, you know, boondoggled into going into this university and put into private loan debt, which is the worst kind of debt. So who knows how far this has reached yet, but I would hope that he would do something to try to fix this because it is something that's great for him to have, for his business to have this

• 1:03:39Laci Mosley?

  pipeline. But also, it's really fucked up to have students come to a university expecting things to be debt-free and then you saddle them with debt.

• 1:03:46Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:03:47Laci Mosley?

  And it's after the fact. It's not like they said like, oh, hey, you're here. Now, just so you know, once you start taking this class, at the end of the semester, there will be this fee. They didn't even give them the option to know about the fee until after they had taken the classes. That's like if I go and they're like, oh, you want a free washing style at this salon? And I'm like, yeah, sure. And then I get the washing style and they lock the doors and are like, you can't leave until you give us $160. What?

• 1:04:10Speaker 06

  Literally. I want to know like, what kind of documentation in addition to the text messages were these, were these kids getting like before stepping foot on campus? I am curious.

• 1:04:21Laci Mosley?

  Yeah. These also aren't professional ways to contact people. Talk about, yeah, we DM'd you on TikTok and said you were excited. What? Can we zoom in here just because I'm trying to see. Okay, so we're on the website and it says, "System update in progress. We will be running once the newly upgraded system is live." Um, and then some links for you to contact. We know they're not gonna get back to you because they love to ghost over here.

• 1:04:44Speaker 06

  Make an e-payment.

• 1:04:45Laci Mosley?

  That still works. Make an e-pay. Okay, the website is down, but don't worry. You can still make an e-payment. We are always open for your payments.

• 1:04:53Laci Mosley?

  Everything else? No, girl. We haven't heard of you. Bet you if I send an e-payment link email, they'll open that one.

• 1:04:59Speaker 06

  I bet they would.

• 1:05:00Laci Mosley?

  I think this is really sad because this is also, you know, we talk about scams that we hate. And me personally, I don't really like this because, and I might say really, I don't like it at all because it, one, it's incredibly misleading to vulnerable people. When you're pursuing a career in the arts, like, the immediate ROI is so low. It takes so much to be successful in this industry. And so you're already putting people who are at a disadvantage at a steeper disadvantage by like tricking them into debt. And then two, like, you're still advertising this even though, yeah, you made one change on your website that says full tuition and not debt-free. But why aren't you just explaining what it costs to go there? Because this is still a steep discount. This is still probably what it would be to do in-state tuition.

• 1:05:43Laci Mosley?

  Also, I think you need to tell people if there's no state-of-the-art equipment or they need to build it themselves. And like, there's a lot here that-

• 1:05:50Speaker 06

  Yeah, I'm still confused by this studio. Like, let's, let's really get a full video tour. I want to see everything.

• 1:05:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think it all comes down to media literacy. They really got to start teaching kids. It's really got to be a factor here on like where to like apply. Because then you, then it goes on the pressure of the parents. And half these times, these parents are just trying to like, keep the house payments like paid. And they're just trying to make their kids' dreams come true. It's just not enough research, but we're not blaming 17-year-olds. We're blaming the pink blazer who is texting admission. It is the craziest thing I'd ever heard. And that's them at their attempt at being like, I don't know, like in with the kids.

• 1:06:28Speaker 06

  She's got like, she has to be sorting the kids that like, she's got to be putting like an emoji or something next to the students' names. Like, I'm assuming this is probably her personal phone, you know?

• 1:06:37Speaker 05

  Oh, God. It all went downhill after that. It's just, it's insane. These poor kids. I hope it's a cautionary tale. Run these numbers up, everybody. Share it with a friend. Because we all have like cousins and like nephews and nieces that are like, I'm always telling kids, I'm like, be so smart with your money. Do not do something stupid and expensive with it when it comes to college. But hopefully, hey, we should track these kids in a couple of years and see if any of them make it big. That would be a good story. Hopefully, they learned something good out of all this.

• 1:07:05Laci Mosley?

  I know, I hope that they did. I hope they got some sort of education after they built their own studio and stuff. But you're right, it's like media literacy has gone so downhill, like even the way that younger people consume information. I'm like, please get off ChatGTP. That is not how you learn things. It's full of errors. Google is right there if you don't want to go open a book. I know those are old and ghetto to y'all. But there are ways to verify sources. When I was 10 years old, we learned about that in school. What's a false fact? What's a source that's verified? And now everyone wants to think that news can be democratized. And I know that other things have been like entertainment, like we all live in that space where we might put out content or videos or things like that. Whereas, you know, at a certain time, that was reserved for television and movies.

• 1:07:48Laci Mosley?

  And you know, you didn't see as much online content, but we were the age where it all kind of boomed. And we had more say in the content that we put out and the entertainment that we offer and more direct contact with the people who support and love our artwork, right? But that has now crept over into every facet of media. And that's where we're having an issue is people being like, well, I get my news from YouTube or this person is a person who gives me my news. And you know, the lame stream media, like they're just, yeah, a lot, there is a lot of propaganda on the news. And we've seen that recently with several wars where the news was trying to tell us one thing. But then I'm like, I got videos on Twitter that are literally was just like, you're lying. Like I'm looking at the video and you're lying. Those things are true. However, most media outlets, if they are worth any stock, if they are verified and legitimate,

• 1:08:33Laci Mosley?

  will get sued if they are putting out false information. They will get sued if they have not verified their facts. You talk, you listen to Natasha Kay on TikTok or on fucking YouTube. She doesn't have the same legal liability as CNN. You're not some genius who has hacked the code on figuring out news because you're listening to a random person who gets likes and clicks online, babes. They don't have, they don't risk being sued as much as, you know, ABC. So I wish we had that kind of literacy back. And unfortunately, y'all, if it's, if a college texts you talking about pull up to the college, girly pop.

• 1:09:08Speaker 05

  Maybe, maybe don't go there.

• 1:09:10Laci Mosley?

  Maybe don't go there.

• 1:09:11Speaker 05

  Maybe start a community college, get some, get some of those requirements. And then then we'll discuss, we'll go back to that text.

• 1:09:17Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:09:18Laci Mosley?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:19Speaker 06

  I'm like, I'll pack my hookah, I'm on my way.

• 1:09:21Laci Mosley?

  Right. Jonathan, I was like, look, I saw the commercial and I went, and I can't say nothing because I did a commercial. And it was a legit commercial, Jonathan, so you know what? No judgment reserved for you going to commercial school. Look, you got your degree, you know everything. It, it, there was a little tussle, there was a little tussle.

• 1:09:38Speaker 06

  It took like 10 years to learn, but the lesson was learned and it was about the school.

• 1:09:43Laci Mosley?

  Okay, but see, did they talk you something? And you're using it right now. You're using your degree right now.

• 1:09:49Speaker 06

  You are. Honestly, that is so crazy that it all came to a head literally, like, I'm not even lying about that. Literally yesterday while I was listening.

• 1:09:57Speaker 05

  You never knew you had to unfold it on this podcast.

• 1:10:00Speaker 06

  Yeah, wow.

• 1:10:00Laci Mosley?

  That's divine timing.

• 1:10:01Speaker 06

  We're all meant to be here.

• 1:10:02Laci Mosley?

  I feel like Zachary would have wrote about that in one of his horoscopes. Aquarius, you will receive closure. Divine closure with your university this week.

• 1:10:13Speaker 05

  Oh, it's fabulous. Awful circle, I love it.

• 1:10:16Laci Mosley?

  Yes. Well, do you guys have any final thoughts about this scam? Anything you want to say here? Where would you rate it?

• 1:10:23Speaker 05

  Listen, we're, we're, we're pretty local to this. I can stop by at any point. So if we need to do any follow ups, boots on the ground, we can figure out where the studio is. And I'm going to show you exactly what it's looking like and if there's still Amazon boxes. Um, I rate this as a really terrible scam because it involves children. Cause I don't think you're an adult at 18 really if you're still applying. So it's like, this is affecting children and debt at that age is so crippling. So shame on this university. I don't know, is it on a scale, the highest it could be? I hate this. What about you?

• 1:10:56Speaker 06

  No, I a hundred percent agree. It's also April, which means their, uh, their walking ceremony should be coming up. This is like the first round of kids too. I feel bad.

• 1:11:05Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's rough.

• 1:11:06Speaker 06

  And nobody's talking about it. It sucks. Like I've, obviously didn't go through the same exact situation, but a very similar one. And it, it sucks. It's awful.

• 1:11:14Laci Mosley?

  It does. And I hope that before y'all walk out of that university, y'all leave with something. Very Denzel, I'm leaving with something. Y'all grab a few microphones, some computers.

• 1:11:21Speaker 05

  A computer at least.

• 1:11:23Speaker 06

  Saxophone.

• 1:11:25Speaker 05

  Grab something.

• 1:11:27Laci Mosley?

  Very much something because they, they tried to run y'all up. They tried to trick y'all and I don't like that. I don't like that for us. Um, I agree with both of you. This is not, I hope that they get it together, especially since they're offering the program still. So hopefully, y'all text them. Y'all reach out to Ms. Pinkblade, her and tell her she needs to get out of happy hour and take her ass back to the school and make it a real school for the children. Okay. Because this is unacceptable. Um, and then we always ask at the end of the show, my camp counselors, where would you like to be found? Places people can listen, watch you, your social media handles, all of those good things.

• 1:12:02Speaker 06

  Um, well, we are currently scamming. We do run a fake camp over here.

• 1:12:07Laci Mosley?

  I can't wait.

• 1:12:08Speaker 06

  Camp that's all year. Uh, it is Camp Counselors Podcast with Zachary Porter and Jonathan Carson. Everywhere, uh, our handles are Camp Counselor Pod. And, uh, you can find me, Jonathan Carson, at Hello, My Name Is John, everywhere.

• 1:12:21Speaker 05

  Yeah. And, um, I'm at Zachary Porter pretty much everywhere. Um, we're going on tour this kind of summer into fall. So keep an eye out for some tour dates. Yeah. So we're, we're going to bring the comedy to the road. Um, and this, thank you for having us. This is such a fun podcast and you're just so, so fucking funny. So this is awesome.

• 1:12:40Laci Mosley?

  This was such a good time. Y'all livened me up. I really enjoyed this. As always, you can find me at D I V A L A C I, Diva Lacy for my own personal shenanigans. Um, Scam Goddess Pod, if you want to see the photos and so many videos with rap music underneath of this, uh, program.

• 1:12:54Speaker 05

  To that, yes.

• 1:12:55Laci Mosley?

  Yes. You decide if these machines actually exist in these studios. That's at Scam Goddess Pod. And then Scam Goddess Pod on Twitter, if you want to chat with me. Y'all, my book is out everywhere books are sold. You can also get the audiobook, which I did myself, Scam Goddess. We keep the brand real strong here. And then watch the television show Scam Goddess on Hulu. All episodes are out now. You can also watch me playing a scammer supply sergeant on Going Dutch, which is also, all episodes are out on Hulu. Yes.

• 1:13:18Speaker 05

  Love.

• 1:13:19Laci Mosley?

  Yes. Okay. And congregation, y'all get out there. Hmm. I want y'all to get.

• 1:13:30Laci Mosley?

  I want y'all to get out there and stay, stay collecting. I want to see y'all out here collecting like Zachariah was collecting those collection plates, okay? Y'all stay collecting and look people in their eyes. Make them give you their money.

• 1:13:42Speaker 05

  Exactly that.

• 1:13:47Laci Mosley?

  This has been an Earwolf production in association with Team Coco. Scam Goddess stars and is hosted by me, Lacey Mosley, AKA Scam Goddess. Our producer is Jessica Cisneros and our audio engineer is Rich Garcia. Research for the show is conducted by Kate Doyle. Stay scheming.

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