S3 Ep145: Tamla Horsford | When Justice Feels Out of Reach (Part 3)

On the night of November 3rd, 2018, a group of women gathered at a quiet home in Forsyth County, Georgia for what was supposed to be a casual birthday sleepover. There was football on TV, drinks flowing, and nothing about the evening seemed out of the ordinary. But by the next morning, one of those women- 40-year-old Tamla Horsford- was dead. Try our coffee! - www. CriminalCoffeeCo.comBecome a Patreon member -- > ｿ https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeeklyShop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> ｿ https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shopYoutube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcastWebsite: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.comInstagram: @CrimeWeeklyPodTwitter: @CrimeWeeklyPodFacebook: @CrimeWeeklyPodADS:1. https://www. FactorMeals.com/CrimeWeekly50Off - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY50OFF for 50% off your first box and FREE daily greens!2. https://www. MintMobile.com/CrimeWeekly - Shop for your new phone plan TODAY!3. Bull Shot - Text CRIME20 to 64000 for up to 20% off and FREE shipping!4. https://www. Quince.com/CrimeWeekly - Get FREE shipping and 365-Day Returns with Quince today!5. https://www. TryFUM.com - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY for a FREE gift with your Journey Pack!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow.

• 0:15Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm Derek Levasseur.

• 0:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  And we are here to do the third and final part of the Tomah Horsford case.

• 0:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 0:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  So it's been a wild ride.

• 0:26Derrick Levasseur?

  It has been. Can I say something before we start?

• 0:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 0:29Derrick Levasseur?

  The hype thing, the hype is real. Like, I didn't know about it. I felt old when we brought it up. But I will tell you that this video, now I can see, especially with smaller channels, we have an ability to basically influence the algorithm. And more people have seen this series than we've had seen in a while. It's mainly because of you guys. So, thank you so much for hyping it. I can see the numbers and see how high we are on the leaderboard, which is kind of cool. Like, as a competitor, I'm like, I like seeing this get hyped up and go to the top. So if there's a series that you really like, or a story that you want to have more people hear about, for anybody who doesn't know how to do it, because I definitely didn't, all you do is like the video. And when you like the video, this little pop-up thing comes up below it, where you can hype the video,

• 1:13Derrick Levasseur?

  and basically a lot, a certain number of points to it, and it's free. It's absolutely free to do. So, we would appreciate if you did it. It would help get the stories out there.

• 1:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  If you like, you must hype.

• 1:24Derrick Levasseur?

  I like it. There's a, there's a logo. There's a shirt right there. But no, that, it's new to me, but, you know, for, when you have a smaller, obscure case, if you want people to hear about it, and you want YouTube to recommend it, that's the trick. You can basically control or influence the algorithm by having your own audience hype it. So that's pretty cool.

• 1:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's awesome. We love it. I don't, I-

• 1:43Derrick Levasseur?

  We do love it. Thank you.

• 1:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  I still don't know how to do it, but I will figure it out.

• 1:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep.

• 1:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  I will figure it out. So-

• 1:49Derrick Levasseur?

  Same thing on audio, too, by the way. If you're liking and commenting on it-

• 1:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Can you hype on audio?

• 1:52Derrick Levasseur?

  You can't hype, but if you're liking and commenting, Spotify and Apple has already told us, like, the more the engagement and comment section and all that, they will promote that content. They will, they will share it more. You'll see it in, like, your, your, your home screen. So, we say it all the time. We've been saying it for years. Like, we wouldn't be here without you. It's such a cliche, cliche thing to say. But it's actually the truth. Like, if you don't promote the content, if you're not engaging with it, nobody sees it. It doesn't matter how good it is. So, we appreciate you guys. Anything you can do to help us grow moving forward, get more notoriety on these cases. It's a win for everybody, so thank you.

• 2:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I'm so bad at this stuff, by the way, this like, there's like strategic things you can do as like a content creator to make more people see your stuff, or to like do certain things. There's like whole, you know, blogs and people out there who talk about it and I am so bad at it.

• 2:44Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 2:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't even post on social media. I'm, you know, so I have to like be, be better.

• 2:50Derrick Levasseur?

  We have been doing good on the Patreon, though.

• 2:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, we love Patreon.

• 2:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, it doesn't have to be like an official post. Like I posted Saturday that I was at my kid's basketball games. You know, it's just like, it's a random photo. Most people don't want to see it on Instagram, but if you're on the Patreon page, you're getting that random stuff, that behind the scenes stuff, that like our, our daily lives.

• 3:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  My messy office.

• 3:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I saw that, the script. So I was like, okay, that tracks.

• 3:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Like that makes, that makes sense.

• 3:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  You know, it would absolutely drive you to, to really.

• 3:16Derrick Levasseur?

  We have, I like, we have different offices. If we ever in the same building, we're definitely gonna not share an office.

• 3:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, no, no, we could never. Okay, so let's dive in. As we know, we had, you know, we've been regularly talking about kind of the outcome, which was the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office officially closed the investigation into Tom LaHorseford's death on February 20th, 2019. They ruled it accidental. So five days after that, a lawsuit against Tom La's friend, Michelle Graves, was filed. John Myers, Nicole Lawson, Stacy Smith, Thomas Smith, Bridget Fuller, Marcy Harden, and Jose Barrera, all sharing the same lawyer, Eric Tatum, alleged that they had suffered irreparable damage to their character, reputation, and business as a result of the statements made by Michelle Graves.

• 4:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  And so this was basically things that Michelle was saying on her Facebook page, and the complaint listed 13 posts made on Michelle's Facebook page, which named each of these people and made statements about Tom La's death. So the complaint stated, quote, "Defendant made these false statements maliciously with the intent to injure plaintiffs by accusing plaintiffs of committing murder and/or aiding and abetting the same behaviors that are so repugnant, debased, and immoral that it could exclude plaintiffs from society. Defendant's intentions have been carried out as some of the posts have been seen more than 100,000 times," end of quote. So yeah, Michelle Graves' Facebook page picked up some traction, right? And you know, she was saying things. She wasn't necessarily saying, she wasn't, I guess, I don't know.

• 4:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  She wasn't saying like, these people committed murder, but she was like suggesting, hey, there's more going on here than we know. These things aren't adding up. These statements that these people have made aren't adding up. And like, maybe there could be something more going on here, such as maybe Thoma was murdered and people are covering it up and things like that. Which is legal to do.

• 5:14Derrick Levasseur?

  It's legal to do, but there are civil consequences to that. Like, I try to stay in the middle here. We are going to talk about this, this case and these people that you just mentioned and their involvement or lack of involvement in some cases. Like, we're going to talk about all that. They're not exonerated from being bad people. But there is something to be said, especially in our world today with the internet, where you can go out there and say whatever you want. But if you present it as fact, when you have nothing to substantiate it, you can be civilly liable. We deal with it every single week. We have a big insurance plan because we're giving our opinions on these cases. And someone could sue us. Doesn't mean it's going to hold up in court.

• 5:53Derrick Levasseur?

  But yeah, if you're out there on Facebook, Instagram, Reddit, making these comments, and they find out who you are, and, and what you're saying is factually not true. You could be sued. And I, I, I believe in that.

• 6:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  But she didn't, yeah, she didn't say anything that was factually not true.

• 6:07Derrick Levasseur?

  No, she's giving her an opinion. And that's, that's how you have to qualify it. So, again, you can get sued for anything. It doesn't mean you're gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna lose or you're gonna win.

• 6:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  It would actually be like a long, drawn out thing.

• 6:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Of course it would be.

• 6:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Went on for like, two years, if not more. And eventually the judge was like, no, I don't, I don't really see how there were any false statements made maliciously.

• 6:26Derrick Levasseur?

  It's her opinion.

• 6:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. So.

• 6:27Derrick Levasseur?

  It's the same rea-, your, your, your phrase, allegedly, right? In my opinion, the, the reason we say that, you guys get sick of us saying it, is because we have to. We have to qualify it by making sure everyone knows. These, in, in some cases, are just our opinions.

• 6:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. And I mean, according to the lawyer, Jean and her crew had received death threats on social media. They feared for the safety of themselves and their families. Now, Michelle Graves. She was like, I stand by what I said, right? She told the Forsyth County News, quote, "I state nothing but factual information, which was verified after reading the case file obtained through open records. I stand strong behind my statement that these people know what happened, and if they were not directly involved, they have not come forward with the truth." End quote.

• 7:11Derrick Levasseur?

  Which, by the way, who doesn't agree with that? There's more to the story, for sure.

• 7:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  I really feel like there is, yeah.

• 7:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, we'll save it for the end, but there's a gradient of what could have happened here. And but there's, to me, it's very unlikely that just nobody knows. She just was left alone, and Tamla was on her own, and they woke up and found her like this. I think that the chances of that are slim to none. It's, it's obviously possible, but very unlikely. We talked about it last episode, being the host of an event, having people sleeping over, making sure that, you know, they have bath towels, or they have blankets, or pillows, whatever they need, like, that's a common thing.

• 7:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  That the doors are locked.

• 7:47Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, hey, is everybody good? Everybody tucked in? I'm gonna shut, I'm gonna shut the doors, I'm gonna make sure everyone's good for the night.

• 7:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, especially if you know your security cameras, their batteries died months ago. You want to make sure your house is at least locked up before you go to sleep at night, right?

• 8:00Derrick Levasseur?

  At minimum, it would be something along the lines of, hey, we tried to get Tamla to bed, but she was refusing to do so. She wanted to be left. Something more there that resulted in her being on the porch alone, if that's what happened, because we've already had people come out and say, nobody was ever out there alone. So why would this case be any different? So I agree with her assessment as far as they know more than what they're saying.

• 8:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, at the very least, you're opening yourself up to a legal thing, where it's like, if you have people at your house, let's say you have a swimming pool, and you have people at your house, and they're drinking, and then you go to sleep, and somebody drowns in your swimming pool, you can still be sued for that.

• 8:32Derrick Levasseur?

  Hundred percent, absolutely.

• 8:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  So you would want to avoid those things, right? Those are, those are the kinds of things that you'd want to avoid, and you'd want to make sure, as the homeowner, that everybody's tucked in, and, you know, on their way to sweet dreams before you, you yourself go to bed. Now, Michelle Graves also mentioned a previous claim against her that had already been dismissed. That was a temporary protective order that Jean had filed against her in November of 2018. There was also a cease and desist letter sent to Michelle in December of 2018 that the lawsuit claimed she had ignored. And she continued to post about the case and her opinions on Facebook. And this is just what Michelle believes is like a constant barrage and attempts to silence her, to make her stop talking publicly about her doubts of how her friend Tamla died.

• 9:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, I'm not going to say what Michelle Graves was doing was right or wrong, because she wasn't just a regular person with no connection to the case. She's not just like a person on TikTok who sees a case and is like, this doesn't look right to me. You know, in that, in that situation, even though we do that sometimes as well. But in this situation, Michelle knew Tamla, right? There was things she knew about her, her behavior, what she would do, what she wouldn't do. And that gives her kind of an additional context into, hey, this doesn't look right. Something's not right about what these people are saying happened that night. And everything in Michelle was screaming from the beginning that these things weren't adding up. So what Michelle was posting on Facebook wasn't necessarily random unsupported claims of murder.

• 10:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  She was pointing out inconsistencies that actually existed from the police reports that she had gotten through FOIA requests. Whether these inconsistencies and, and all of these, you know, things that didn't add up could be explained away by non nefarious reasons, that's not really important at this point, because Michelle wanted them explained regardless. And so that's what I'm trying to say. It's like, we have already gone over this stuff. And even us sitting here looking at it, we're like, well, that doesn't make sense. And why did Bridget Fuller lie about having Xanax? And then why did she lie about giving it to people? And then why was Xanax in Tamla's system? And nobody saw her take it and she didn't have a prescription and she'd never taken it before and things like this. There's things that we need answered. And then there's these other things that come up that look like they could answer those things.

• 10:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  But then the people who are in charge of those other things, like the Xanax, they're like, no, I didn't give her a Xanax. I didn't, I didn't see anyone slip it in her drink, which is a weird thing to say, right?

• 10:55Derrick Levasseur?

  And that right there too, when we go back to knowing more than you're saying. If you had Xanax in your necklace and you have a prescription for it and nothing happened that night, me personally, if law enforcement comes to me and asks me, I'm gonna say, yeah, but just so you know, I just want to make sure it's all out there. I have a prescription for Xanax. I didn't give anybody anything that night, but I keep them on myself. So if anybody says anything, I did, I did have Xanax. I was taking Xanax that night, but it's my prescription and I'm the only one who uses it. However, we know that's not the case now. And we know that Tamla had Xanax in her system. So when you take those two things together, and the fact that Bridget wasn't forthright about that, it makes you wonder, as a layman, why would you not disclose

• 11:38Derrick Levasseur?

  that information? Is there more that happened that night that you're aware of that may have contributed to whatever happened to Tamla? And that's the reason you didn't tell us because you have a prescription. There's no crime against that.

• 11:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Even giving it to people isn't necessarily a crime that would supersede trying to figure out how this person died.

• 11:56Derrick Levasseur?

  It wouldn't supersede it, but it would be a crime. That could be part of it. But that right there, if you're giving people prescription medication and their death occurs because of it, you are criminally liable. So could that be a reason that even though you're not directly responsible for what happened to her, you think that you're indirectly? So what I'm talking about here is consciousness of guilt, right? Behaviors that are displayed because you know, your actions or your decisions may have contributed to the death of another.

• 12:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, if Bridget gave Tamla Xanax, wouldn't she technically and legally sort of hold responsibility for what happened to her?

• 12:33Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, you were saying like, it's not, you're not potentially criminally liable. No, you are. It wouldn't supersede the murder investigation.

• 12:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, I meant when Bridget admitted to giving Xanax to like Jean and, you know,

• 12:43Derrick Levasseur?

  That's a crime.

• 12:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes. But it's if it's not connected to how Tamla died. And I think that's where it comes back to like, okay, maybe these things have non nefarious explanations for them. Like, hey, I know I'm not supposed to be giving people my Xanax. And I know I gave it to Jean and, you know, another person, I forget her name now. But I didn't give any to Tamla. And I don't want it to look like I'm just giving Xanax out to everybody and them to think that. But if she did give it to Tamla, or if she did. Slip it into her drink, right? Which is, see, here's what I'm thinking. Why would you say? I never saw anyone put Xanax in her drink.

• 13:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, a lot of commenters were talking about that in last week's episode. It's a weird thing to say.

• 13:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  First of all, Bridgette, ain't nobody got Xanax except you. So why would you see anybody put it in her drink? And second of all, who no one is knowingly typically going to take Xanax by saying, oh, thanks for this pill of Xanax. Let me dissolve it in my drink and that's how I'm going to ingest it.

• 13:44Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that's not the normal way to do it, no.

• 13:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  That sounds more like somebody gave someone Xanax without the person ingesting the Xanax, knowing that sounds more like, oh, you're getting roofied here. And so for her to say it that way, and you know, you hear her complaining about Tomlin. She was all over the place. She just had all this energy. Were you just trying to be funny? And maybe like you crushed up a Xanax and put it in her drink, thinking like, man, this, this Tomlin chick needs to chill out. Maybe this will help.

• 14:12Derrick Levasseur?

  That's what I was going to say, not to be funny, but to even take it a step further. By her not being forthright, if she had given it to other people, right? We keep talking about Bridgette, Bridgette, Bridgette. But if she had given it to Jean or someone else, it's also possible that one of them crushed it up and put it into Tomlin's drink or gave it to her because she, they said, hey, I have this, do you want half of it? So all of those things are important and that's why you have to be truthful so that detectives can track it down and figure out who's the last person to have that Xanax. But to what you just said there about the, the crushing up of the Xanax, not necessarily to be funny, but Bridgette herself has said she was out of control. She was grabbing my breasts. She was sitting on top of me. I wouldn't do it. You wouldn't do it, but maybe someone who's not thinking right, it's like, oh, we gotta calm this chick down.

• 14:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's what I'm saying. Yeah, that's like, oh, I'm going to kill her.

• 15:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 15:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  But like, man, I know when I take Xanax. My, you know.

• 15:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Mellows me out.

• 15:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  It mellows me out and I get kinda tired and I'm not as like huh all over the place. So maybe if I give it to Tamla without her knowing, she'll chill the hell out for a second and she won't be crawling all over me and everybody else anymore.

• 15:18Derrick Levasseur?

  But what's one thing you don't wanna do when you're doing, when you're taking Xanax?

• 15:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  Drink.

• 15:22Derrick Levasseur?

  That's the problem.

• 15:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  You don't want to drink.

• 15:24Derrick Levasseur?

  That's a problem. We know she was drinking tequila, but she could hold her liquor liquor according to Lee.

• 15:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  And Bridget knew that as well. So if it had come out that Bridget had done that, even if she'd admitted to him and been like, yeah, I mean, I crushed up a Xanax and I put it in her drink. Cause I was just like, I want her to chill out a little bit. And that would be a crime. That would be, now you are

• 15:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 15:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Responsible for this woman's death, even if we don't know for sure that the Xanax contributed to the death. You can't give somebody who's drinking Xanax be, and especially if you crush it up because then it's gonna kind of not have that like steady release aspect. It's gonna hit kinda hard. And somebody's gonna be disoriented. I mean, you're not supposed to operate a motor vehicle when you're on Xanax, much less Xanax and alcohol. Maybe that's why Bridget was so dead set on, on Tamla not driving home because she knew.

• 16:08Derrick Levasseur?

  She had something else coming.

• 16:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Something else that was coming.

• 16:10Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, I don't, again, this is all speculation. We're not saying this happened, but hypothetically, if I learned as an investigator that someone had crushed up a Xanax and threw it into someone's pill, a drink without them knowing. And that person was affected by it because of the combination of alcohol and Xanax and they lost their balance and fell over a railing on a deck and, and died because of it. I would need the attorney general's consent to do this, but I would find a way to charge him. I'd be, I'd be looking for something there. I don't know what it would be. Cause you wouldn't have intent. There's a lot there, but there's

• 16:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Like something reckless, some reckless kind of.

• 16:48Derrick Levasseur?

  There's a crime there for sure. Maybe like manslaughter. I don't know. There's something there. I would leave it up to the attorneys in the comments, but there's something there where she would be criminally liable.

• 16:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Reckless endangerment, maybe? Yeah.

• 16:59Derrick Levasseur?

  Without her actions that you have, you would be under the assumption that the victim would still be alive.

• 17:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, without knowing exactly why, why she fell off that balcony, you'd have to assume they were probably kind of related, especially if Tamla wasn't known to take Xanax.

• 17:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Right. And that's if this was an accident.

• 17:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. It wasn't something her system had built up a tolerance to because you have to understand Bridget's, Bridget's taken Xanax like, like it's, you know, uh, multivitamins here. She's got a. She's got a resistance to it, or what is it, what are they called, a tolerance to it. So it's not going to affect her as heavily as it would.

• 17:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, the same way someone else, yeah. Yeah, and that's if this was an accident, right? We're not saying that's what we believe. There's a, there's a whole spectrum to this where that's the, that, that's on the lower end of things, but we, we, we haven't ruled out the possibility that what happened is much more nefarious.

• 17:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Absolutely, I would never, no, not in this case, I wouldn't.

• 17:52Derrick Levasseur?

  No.

• 17:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right, let's take a quick break, we'll be right back.

• 17:59Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 18:09Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that's when bad decisions happen and all that hard work you have been putting in throughout the week goes out the window.

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• 19:01Derrick Levasseur?

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• 19:36Derrick Levasseur?

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• 20:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, we're back. So it was around this time when Michelle Graves is posting on Facebook and her posts are getting a lot of attention and the people at the party are starting to like file lawsuits and you know, there's stories coming out that Mike Christian told the people at the party, oh, you know, Michelle Graves is dangerous. You guys should go and get guns. And there's some police officers that are helping the people at the party kind of waged this legal battle against Michelle Graves. And Michelle is saying, hey, not only does it look suspicious, but the people at the party are trying to silence me and the police officers who were supposed to be investigating Tom's death, they are also helping these people try to silence me. What's going on here?

• 20:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  And this is when Tom's case started gaining a lot of traction online, right? Outside of Forsyth County. And then it was revealed that the Horsford family had hired an attorney and this attorney, Ralph Hernandez, he was making moves behind the scenes.

• 21:04Speaker 02

  The attorney for the family, Ralph Hernandez, was very, very clear. He says that there are just too many inconsistencies.

• 21:19Speaker 02

  Hernandez is referencing Jose Barrera, Forsyth County Superior Court employee who was fired for accessing police files about Horsford's death. Hernandez believes the injuries meanwhile from the fall didn't seem to match the injuries of blunt force trauma listed in the medical examiner's report. Now, we also got her toxicology report which shows she had Xanax in her system along with marijuana. Her blood alcohol level was .238, nearly three times the legal limit. Hernandez says he will review the evidence himself and meet with the sheriff before deciding if he or the family will ask for any further investigation.

• 22:02Speaker 03

  I think that's critical here for no one to jump the gun so to speak and no one to pass judgment that led us to our work. But beginning this work, I can tell you that it does not appear as if it's as clean cut.

• 22:16Speaker 04

  So, does that mean that they want this to be further investigated even though from Forsyth, it's case closed? What do they want?

• 22:23Speaker 02

  Well, you know Hernandez, he said he's confident that any reputable law enforcement agency would reopen a case if there was new evidence found. Now meanwhile, the attorney for the homeowners where the party took place, he sent us a statement also saying that this was a tragic accident, asking that threats against his client's online stop and that this was not a case of murder.

• 22:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, basically at this venture, Ralph Hernandez is saying, hey, I'm going to look through what the police did, I'm gonna see if there's anything there to see, and he has quite a hard time getting the records, the police records. I think we've all kind of been there on this side of the table at least, when you're filing a FOIA request. If it's an especially kind of controversial case, or the police are getting heat for it, it's difficult to get them for some reason. If it was just a case that, you know, the police felt they had done their best on and nobody was talking about it, it's pretty easy, you can get it in a few days a week. But if it's something like this, they make it a little bit more difficult. And once again, that could be explained away by non nefarious reasons,

• 23:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  or it could be because the police didn't want anybody to see what a poor investigation they had put on Ralph Fernandez. He eventually does get some case records. He has a team look through them. They kind of do their own investigation. And in June of 2020, he sent Tamla's husband, Lee, a letter saying that his team's investigation strongly suggested a homicide. Quote, "Witness statements are in conflict. A potential subject handled the body as well as the evidence prior to law enforcement arrival. Evidence was disposed of and no inquiry followed. The scene was not preserved. Evidence was inappropriately handled." End quote. So I'm not done reading from the letter, but we kind of have to ask, what is he talking

• 24:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  about when he's talking about, you know, the scene's not being preserved, evidence isn't appropriately handled? Well, during a conversation early on with members of Tamla's family, Mike Christian from the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office was asked about the cigarettes that had been found on the balcony. Because remember that Jose said the morning that Tamla's body was discovered, Aunt Madeline had come to the room where he and Jean were sleeping and she was like, I need Jose. And she was like, you know, something's going on with your friend from the island. She's outside. And he said he went out on the balcony and before he even saw Tamla's body, he saw some cigarettes and a lighter and not thinking about it, he just kind of grabbed those things and moved them from where they were and put them on the fire pit.

• 24:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I do have an issue with that because if somebody came to my bedroom and woke me up and was like, hey, one of the people that was at your party yesterday is laying in the lawn, not moving, face down. Would I even have like been focused on, oh, what are these cigarettes and lighter doing on the ground here? Let me pick them up, you know, they're, it's messy out here. Let me clean up before I walk to the edge of the balcony and see this body. Would it have been something that's on your mind, Derek? If somebody told you, somebody at your party last night is laying face down in the yard and I don't know why, can you come check it out?

• 25:26Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, no, it doesn't make sense to me. Start removing things and oh, let me get the debris around the...

• 25:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 25:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Body that's not moving.

• 25:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, you're talking of a balcony, an outside balcony, maybe what, six feet from the door to the edge of the balcony?

• 25:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Looking at those photos, when we look at it, let's say, let's say eight feet.

• 25:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and, and in that small, short distance, you're like cigarettes in a lighter. Good lord, let's pick that up. I don't know if that's what would even process to me.

• 25:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 25:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  If somebody just told me that, I'm gonna be pretty laser focused on let me get to that yard and see what she's talking about, right?

• 25:57Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, you would think.

• 25:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, everyone had kept saying that Tamla was the only smoker there that night. We heard a million people say that. She was the only smoker there that night. Everybody, you know, went out with her various times, but nobody else was smoking cigarettes besides Tamla. Yet, as it turns out, there were two different brands of cigarette butts found.

• 26:17Speaker 05

  Okay, so these cigarettes that were on the porch, um...

• 26:22Speaker 06

  They're all pretty the same brand.

• 26:27Speaker 07

  There's two different brands. In two different brands of cigarettes. There we go, just look at him.

• 26:35Speaker 05

  I'm no smoker, so I can't tell that. Which, which is the different one, Kurt?

• 26:40Speaker 07

  One closest to the lighter.

• 26:43Speaker 06

  This one?

• 26:44Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm. And the one right, just right behind it.

• 26:50Speaker 05

  Do you have those actual cigarettes? You didn't keep them?

• 26:55Speaker 05

  So, is the reason why this kind of thing wasn't kept, was it because it was considered accidental at the time?

• 27:02Speaker 06

  No, there was just, they were captured and photographed. It's not something that we would normally take.

• 27:13Speaker 05

  Was that, did you dump the ashtray out to get the picture?

• 27:16Speaker 06

  No, no, no, I can't. That's how we found it.

• 27:20Speaker 05

  Oh, wow.

• 27:20Speaker 06

  Can I explain that? No.

• 27:22Speaker 05

  No, that's what, that's concerning to me. Why is the cigarettes out of the ashtray?

• 27:27Speaker 07

  Butts, there are no butts on there, on the side.

• 27:31Speaker 06

  No, now, some of the things that have been said, um, other things about the cigarettes, this actually was right here, and got picked up before we got there. Just somebody walking through. It's like, oh.

• 27:49Speaker 06

  Do you know who did that? No, I'm telling you, I was Jose. Okay.

• 27:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, this is, you know, a lot happening here. Basically, the voice you hear is Kurt St. Jor. That's Tamla's father, and he's saying, no, they're not all the same brands of cigarettes. And in the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office report, it states the brand of cigarettes were the ones that Tamla smoked. But in this interview, Tamla's father Kurt, he's looking through the photos with Mike Christian, and he points out, no, there's two different cigarettes brands present. And then when asked if they had the original cigarettes, right? Because this could prove it. Mike Christian said, no, they don't usually keep those things. That they had photographed them, and then that was it. And like, they did photograph them? And we don't know what those pictures look like, but I can assume they weren't like, super close-up pictures of the cigarettes to be able to determine, really, one way or the other,

• 28:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  like, what brand of cigarettes they were, or to really be able to kind of get specific on what was going on. And it sounds like they have no idea where those cigarettes were, how they were kind of located or laid out at the time that Tamla died, before the police showed up, because Jose did move them. And so, they're asking Mike Christian, do you have the original cigarettes? And he's like, well, no, you know, like, they, they got thrown out. Well, we don't really know who ended up throwing them out. But Bridget Fuller would later tell the police she dumped the ashtray and thrown the cigarettes out because they were a constant reminder to Jean of what had happened. And so, I think that's what the letter means when they're saying evidence was not properly handled, etc. Because if you had those cigarettes, you could tell, not only were they different brands,

• 29:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  but you could test the DNA on those cigarettes, and you could see, was there somebody else out there smoking cigarettes with Tamla? And if nobody at the party saw anybody else smoking cigarettes besides Tamla, maybe that person had a cigarette with Tamla after everybody else went to bed. And that's why nobody else saw anybody but Tamla smoke cigarettes.

• 29:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that's, that's the issue right there, right? Without keeping the evidence, that speculation that you're talking about right now of what could have happened and what those cigarettes could, could represent, we'll never have those answers. Not because they weren't available to us, because law enforcement didn't do their job.

• 30:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  And why would there be two different brands of cigarettes? Because...

• 30:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Right there, I mean, there's only supposed to be one smoker, but now we have these second set of cigarettes. If we still had them, you go back, you could process them for DNA. Maybe it turns out it's one of the other people there. Maybe there's another answer for it that I can't think of.

• 30:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Maybe it was from a different party and we don't know, I mean.

• 30:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, it comes back to Derek Levasseur and then you find out Derek Levasseur was at the last party and it was just, you know, an oversight.

• 30:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Although according to Jose, he can't, he just has to pick up every single cigarette he ever sees and they can't just stay there, so.

• 30:32Derrick Levasseur?

  On the surface, it's, it's suspicious, right? But a part of the reason it's suspicious, and I just don't want to lose sight of this, is because of how poor the investigation was conducted. That's why these open-ended questions exist.

• 30:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Would you have kept those cigarettes if you were?

• 30:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Of course I would.

• 30:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, you would have, right?

• 30:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Of course. Listen, oh my God, if I had a dollar, I wish my guys were here right now. If I had a dollar for every cigarette butt or Coke can or piece of paper that we seized from a crime scene that had absolutely nothing to do with the case that we were working, but I just took it in case because I was always like, there's going to be a photo later and I see that cardboard from like a chicken nugget box from McDonald's and I didn't pick it up and I'm going to be kicking myself because we come to find out the suspect loves McDonald's or whatever, but like the boxes or cans are so old, sometimes they got, you know, like they're not rusted because they're aluminum, but they, you can tell they're not.

• 31:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  They've got some aging on them, yeah.

• 31:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, you can tell that they're not from the crime that you're working and yet I still would collect them, but cigarette butts, are you kidding me?

• 31:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 31:35Derrick Levasseur?

  It's a Petri dish.

• 31:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 31:37Derrick Levasseur?

  It's literally a DNA swab.

• 31:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 31:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Of course you're collecting all of those and not only are you collecting them, you're putting a placard next to them, you're taking photos, you're documenting them on a graph to ensure that if you have to go back and reference them, you know exactly where they were taken from.

• 31:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, well, that's why it's just convenient or it's like Jose was like, I saw those cigarettes and I had to move them, you know, as soon as, before I even saw the body, I had to move them so they wouldn't be in the original place that they were. And now my Christian is like, no, we, we just took photos, we don't usually take these things and that's why I wanted to ask you.

• 32:05Derrick Levasseur?

  No, I would, I would, I wouldn't move them back, right? So if, if, if someone at the party or a different crime scene says, listen, I picked up these cigarettes, I would take a picture of where they are now or I would seize the trash can, whatever it is.

• 32:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  And document that they had been moved.

• 32:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Document that they've been moved, but then also go take a photograph and have the, I usually would have the witness. Point to the area where the cigarette was. So now it's my way of locking you in. Because I have a photo of you and an image of you like an asshole pointing to the ground where it was. So I can say, don't tell me later. You didn't say that to me. Cause not only did you say it, but I got a photo of you pointing to the spot where they were. Cause that's what will happen to Stephanie. So many times where. You'll get like a statement and what do I always say? If it's not written, it's not, it doesn't exist. If it's not in the report, it didn't happen. And so. If you have someone who says something that's incriminating, but you don't document it. And then later you reference it by saying, oh, Jose said this to me. No, I didn't say that to you.

• 33:02Derrick Levasseur?

  What are you talking about? Well, where's the statement that I said that or where's the recording? Oh, well, I don't have anything. Well, then guess what? You're shot of luck. It didn't happen.

• 33:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  And once again, I want to clarify, I don't really actually believe. That this, it went down like this where the police get there and then Jose like pulls them all aside and he's like, I did this. And you got to help me cover it up. And that's why the investigation was done poorly.

• 33:24Derrick Levasseur?

  But I don't believe that either.

• 33:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  As Mike Christian was asked, hey, did you not collect them because you thought it was an accident? Basically from minute one. And he's like, no, no, no, no, we just don't. No, it's because you thought it was an accident from minute one. You didn't look at all the possible scenarios that could have happened and how this woman died. And so you didn't investigate it as in, hey, we might need evidence to look at later to figure out in peace together what happened. Cause we already think we know.

• 33:51Derrick Levasseur?

  And although you're not suggesting that they showed up and Jose said, hey, like you just said, I did it and help me cover it up. There is some bias there, right? Because even if it wasn't that extreme. It could have been more, a more commonsensical way of looking at it would have been, oh, this is Jose.

• 34:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, we know Jose. He's great.

• 34:08Derrick Levasseur?

  He's a good guy.

• 34:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  He's great.

• 34:09Derrick Levasseur?

  Ah, he wouldn't do something like this. This is an accident, right? That right there, that bias going into it. That preconceived notion before you even have a chance to look into the investigation. Skews your judgment and also causes you not to investigate it as thoroughly as you would. Another case where you don't know the people. So there is a.

• 34:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, we don't know this victim laying on the ground.

• 34:28Derrick Levasseur?

  No, we don't know her, but we know Jose. He's a good guy. And so you go into it and you give a half-ass effort and now you're in front of the GBI and they're interrogating you.

• 34:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, exactly. So Ralph Fernandez's letter continued, quote, "The investigation was compromised by unauthorized access and disclosure to potential targets and witnesses," they're talking about Jose, we know, "a remarkable fact is that there were no photographs taken during the autopsy of Tom's body. This had to have been done at someone's directive because such a practice is unheard of," end quote. So this is kind of like a point of contention. I talked to Michelle Graves and she said, as far as she knows, there were no photographs taken. According to the records, the GBI's medical examiner took only five photographs, okay, which many have pointed out, even if that's true, that's a very low number of photos to take in a

• 35:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  death investigation when the reason the person died is still unknown. According to the GBI, their policy is that the number of photographs taken is left up to the discretion of the medical examiner, and in this case, it included the body bag, Tom's remains, an identification photograph, and injuries. Now Ralph Fernandez argued that Tom's injuries should have warranted more than five photos. And I actually did some looking into this because this bothered me. Five photographs, and some sources say none were taken. Okay, so I did some looking into this, and there isn't a fixed standard number of photos to be taken in an autopsy. But medical examiners are supposed to follow a very simple principle, which is document

• 36:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  everything necessary to accurately capture the body's condition and preserve evidence. So before anything invasive is done, the body should be photographed as it was received. Full body shots, front, back, sides, clothing, identifying features like tattoos, scars, marks. So this is going to establish a baseline and preserve how the victim appeared at the time of intake. So if there are any marks on the body, even minor ones, they need to be documented in detail, using close-up shots of bruises, abrasions, cuts, lividity patterns, ligature marks, petechia, swelling, and these would usually be photographed with and without a measurement scale.

• 36:42Derrick Levasseur?

  A scale.

• 36:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and from multiple angles. So then, once the autopsy begins, the organs would be photographed in place before removal, then again after removal and dissection, and any abnormalities would be documented. If there's any possibility of foul play, the fingernails should be photographed for defensive evidence. The hands, wrist, and neck would also be photographed. You know, if there's like red marks or, you know, anything on the hands, the wrists.

• 37:05Derrick Levasseur?

  You'd not take those clippings too.

• 37:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-hmm.

• 37:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Nail clippings after photographing it.

• 37:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Additionally, photos could be taken for scene correlation, so injuries to possible mechanisms at the scene, patterns that could align with the scene investigation, et cetera. So the general consensus is, in a simple, clearly natural death, about 20 to 50 photos would be taken. In an unclear or potentially suspicious death, between 100 to 300. And in a highly complex or forensic-heavy case, over 500.

• 37:35Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 37:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, once again, I did my research online and then I was like, well, you know, this is what people say they do, but maybe people don't do that. So I actually called around to talk to medical examiners, and I called a lot of places, a lot of different medical examiners, kind of in my area and around. Like, I went pretty far out because, obviously, they're doing important work and not all of them can just stop doing what they're doing and talk to you. But I, I was lucky enough to get a hold of and be able to speak to three medical examiners. And I posed the question as to whether five photos would be considered anywhere close to enough. And they all said that five photos would be extremely low for an autopsy, especially if the cause and manner of death have not been established yet.

• 38:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  They said that in modern forensic practice, that would generally be considered inadequate documentation in most circumstances, not even a suspicious death, just in any autopsy. So, the GBI, they spoke to Dr. Andrew Coop Miners in July of 2020. He was the medical examiner that conducted Tom's autopsy. And he was asked if there were more photos than what the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office had provided. And he stated, "No, these were all the photographs that had been taken." Quote, "The reason there were not more photographs was due to a miscommunication with their photographer, and it is not standard practice to take pictures of minor injuries." End quote. He was again questioned as to why there were not any photos with a scale of Tom's injuries, minor or otherwise.

• 39:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  There's no scale. And he stated again that there was a miscommunication with the photographer, and quote, "It seemed pretty straightforward in regard to the fact that Horsford had fallen and was not pushed, so he did a standard autopsy." End quote.

• 39:15Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, this is, this is right there, what I just said. First off, you want as many photos as possible because as we're looking into the case, from the autopsy, we'll get photos of all the injuries and then I can even go back to the crime scene and try to find the objects that caused those injuries. So you'll see a lot of time, even cases that we've covered where you'll see like an impression or an indentation or a cut. And next to that will be a side by side of the thing that caused it, right? And you go through and you start to identify all the things that would have aligned with those injuries and then you can get a better idea of what, what occurred. But what I just said before, you just read this quote, which was, they show up and they automatically come to the conclusion that this was a tragic accident before doing any investigation.

• 39:58Derrick Levasseur?

  And that's why there was such a like nonchalant approach to this. And that's, that's at minimum. It's just an egregious misstep in, in their judgment as far as their professional conduct. But a lot of people don't agree with that. A lot of people think it's more than that. So it depends on where you fall, but at minimum, we can all agree at this point, this is just not the way you do these things. This is not the way it's supposed to be done.

• 40:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  I also asked the medical examiners that I talked to, how as an ME, would you be looking at every single body that comes in? If you were looking at this body cursory wise, because I mean, obviously the photograph process is going to start happening pretty much right from the beginning, right? So if you're with this body for a few minutes and you've talked to, you know, dumbass Mike Christian for a few minutes and now you're looking here and you're like, I think it's pretty straightforward that she fell. What as a medical examiner are you doing? Like, is that common to assume you know what happened to the person before you've even started the autopsy? And they all said, that's pretty egregious, actually.

• 40:58Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it's insane. It's insane. In fact, a lot of times detectives will think one thing and the pathologist will come back and go, I actually disagree with you.

• 41:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 41:07Derrick Levasseur?

  You know?

• 41:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  So there's that, which is interesting to say the least. We're not done talking about the autopsy, but it's even more important to note that no one has ever even seen these photos because the GBI claims there are five photos. I talked to Michelle Graves, she's like, I didn't think any photos were taken. And even after Ralph Fernandez acquired the case file through a FOIA request, They weren't included. None of these photos were. Now, the GBI told 11 Alive News that they are not subject to open records. And this is not necessarily true because under the Georgia Open Records Act, most state agencies, including the GBI, are required to provide access to public records. But that law also includes really broad exemptions, like if the case is ongoing or still under review.

• 41:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  And at that point, the GBI can legally withhold most or all records related to it. Even if the case is closed, some records may still be unavailable. And autopsy photos are especially restricted. I found out that Georgia law is particularly strict about this, with autopsy photos generally not released to the public. However, they can and should be accessible to immediate family and legal representatives or through court order. So for the GBI to never have provided these five photos they claim existed, you know, at any point to anybody, even Tamla's family and the attorney representing them, it just seems weird. So it's like, were there even five photos taken? Or did you not take photos at all? And what do you mean a miscommunication with the photographer? Because the GBI talked to Dr. Coop Miners,

• 42:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  and he was like, "That was a miscommunication with the photographer." And I don't see any follow-up, at least from the file that I have, where the GBI is like, "Who is this photographer? What was the miscommunication? Like, can you give us more info on that?" Because it's a pretty like, not, not super specific response, that there's a miscommunication with the photographer. Because isn't the ME the one supposed to be telling the photographer what to take pictures of? I don't know.

• 43:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and, and I agree. Like, the fact that the photographer only would take five photographs, it doesn't make sense, even if they're coordinating with the pathologist, because they may be taking those photos in conjunction to the autopsy being conducted. That happens all the time.

• 43:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, that's what it would be. They'd be along with the ME as the ME was doing the autopsy.

• 43:20Derrick Levasseur?

  Can I also add another wrinkle to this? When we had a death that had suspicious circumstances surrounding it, right? We're responding to that autopsy. There's some where it's like very obvious what it is, like it's an older person, whatever, you know, you may not have the bandwidth to get over there. If you guys have a lot of cases going on, but if there's any questions about the death, a detective will be present during that entire autopsy. You know what else they can do during that autopsy, Stephanie?

• 43:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Take pictures.

• 43:47Derrick Levasseur?

  Take some photos. We are allowed to document and take photos of what we're seeing and hearing at the same time. Now, you're going to get the official report from the pathologist, but there have been times where to kind of get in front of it, I might want to take a photo of something. I'll get the official photos later, but something where there's an obvious injury, maybe I don't have a scale in it or whatever, but I want to go back to the crime scene before getting that official report to see if I can identify an injury that was found by the pathologist that we didn't know at the crime scene, you know? So I might go back there and say, hmm, where is this from? But clearly none of that, I would be surprised to find, do we know if an investigator was present during the autopsy report?

• 44:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  We do know.

• 44:27Derrick Levasseur?

  What's the answer?

• 44:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  So they said they were, but they weren't because Dr. Kuhminers, when he's interviewed, he's like, no, there was no detective at the autopsy.

• 44:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Man.

• 44:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  No detective.

• 44:39Derrick Levasseur?

  It's insane. Yeah, it's embarrassing. I give up at this point. I can't.

• 44:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's pretty bad.

• 44:44Derrick Levasseur?

  Pretty bad? Really bad. Somebody's getting fired or and I know people did get fired.

• 44:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right, for for a death like this, probably you want somebody present at the autopsy.

• 44:56Derrick Levasseur?

  No doubt.

• 44:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Like you said, it's not just a 98 year old person who passed away peacefully in their sleep and they were alone in their house and you kind of know what happened here. Okay, you got a major caseload. My Christians got time, all the time in the world to be Snapchatting all these women. You got time to be at the autopsy, my dude.

• 45:11Derrick Levasseur?

  Any suspicious circumstances?

• 45:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  They didn't think it was suspicious, apparently.

• 45:15Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, that's that's the problem.

• 45:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  But how stupid are you?

• 45:18Derrick Levasseur?

  No, I mean, well, that clearly they did a lot of stupid things in this case, but even someone, let's say the case involved. A 30-year-old male who it appears to be a drug overdose, right? It may on the surface look exactly like what the crime scene presents. I'm still going and I'm not just saying me, most detectives are still going because how do we know that the scene wasn't set up to look that way? Right? That's why you go and do the autopsy. That's why you're present for it. In case they discover something where they say, wait a second, there's internal damage here. There's internal injuries. This wasn't an overdose. Now you're present for that when that when that discovery is made.

• 45:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so let me ask you, this is what a lot of people think, right? And it wasn't necessarily just simple stupidity of, oh, this looks pretty cut and dry and straightforward. It was the underlying issues of the fact that A, the detectives and the police who showed up, recognized Jose as somebody they knew and trusted and had a good reputation. And B, they did not know the woman in the yard. She was kind of an outsider, wasn't really well-known around the community, and she was black.

• 46:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, that and that and that's the thing. A lot of people have talked about it and the the simple answer is, I don't know. Because the reality is the implicit bias or the or the unconscious bias that may be present in these investigators. Who am I to defend them? I I don't know what their background is. I don't know what their history is. I don't know what their outlook is on people of color. I'm not going to sit here and defend them. At minimum, like you said, they knew Jose. And it's automatically like, oh, you know what? This is clearly an accident. But it'd be be completely unprofessional of me to sit here and say that because of Tomo's appearance, that there wasn't less significance put on this case. Ah, you know what? You got a bunch of these good white people.

• 47:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 47:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Who are here. Now I got this black woman on the back lawn. I'm not letting them go down for something that clearly they had nothing to do with. This is closed and shut.

• 47:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm not going to do too much here that I don't need to do.

• 47:12Derrick Levasseur?

  But it is it possible that these investigators, at least some of them, saw her as less than because of the color of her skin? I don't have, if you showed me a text that said that, where it's like, oh, it's a tip, I'd be all over it.

• 47:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, I mean, you kind of had Mike Christian being like, oh, hello from racist cracker, you know, like, kind of making jokes about it.

• 47:32Derrick Levasseur?

  Without having something direct, it's, it's hard to say for certain, but I'd be lying also based on what you had told us at the top of the series, as far as the history of this community, that that may carry out through future generations. So I, I'm not going to sit here and, and say, nope, no chance, because that would not be doing my job.

• 47:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I think that, you know, we have a lot of these cases sometimes where people believe that race played a role, and, and sometimes I agree, and sometimes I don't. But if you had to ask me, what is my instinct here? Did race play a role? I would say yes.

• 48:09Derrick Levasseur?

  Can I take it a step further?

• 48:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 48:10Derrick Levasseur?

  We just covered earlier this week about Rex Hureman on Crime Weekly News. Not only can race play a role, but socioeconomic status, right? Or, or current occupation, right? When investigators come in there, they can make a judgment, or they can decide the intensity of the investigation based on the victim, right? This is a poor person. This is a, a former sex worker, or a current sex worker. This is a drug dealer, right? And so they go in there, and based on the profile of the victim, that could dictate the level of investigation. It's not right. It should never happen.

• 48:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or sexual preference, like with Jeffrey Dahmer. We know that Jeffrey Dahmer was allowed to kind of go unfettered for so long, because the, his victims were gay men.

• 48:52Derrick Levasseur?

  A lot of them were homosexual.

• 48:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes. So, and, and...

• 48:54Derrick Levasseur?

  That all plays a factor. These detectives are human beings, and they have implicit biases, and unconscious biases that they may not even be aware of, or they're, or they're aware of it, right? But they go in there, and they judge a person based on who they are. And there's no way I can sit here and say, that's not true. We know it's true. We have evidence to support it.

• 49:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  They don't judge, they don't judge a person based on who they are, because they don't know, they judge a person based on... What they look like, what they immediately present it.

• 49:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Who they were in life, right? There's a lot of things that could go into it and it's never the case. This is supposed to be binary, right? Not only with suspects, but also with victims. I don't give a who you are. At the end of the day, all I care about are the facts. Nothing else matters to me. Who you were with, what you liked, what you look like, what you did for fun, what crimes you committed prior to your death? I don't care unless it contributes to solving what happened to you. It's irrelevant to me.

• 49:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I agree, but I do think that in this area, this kind of case ended up being not investigated the way it should have been. And race did play a role and I will say that, so.

• 49:59Derrick Levasseur?

  It definitely a higher likelihood based on the history that you've described to me earlier. Absolutely. It would be foolish of us not to consider that.

• 50:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, on that depressing note, let's take a quick break. We'll be right back.

• 50:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't know about you, but I like keeping my money where I can actually see it. Unfortunately, for a long time, my wireless bill had other plans.

• 50:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, those mystery fees, they really start adding up fast, especially if you're not paying attention.

• 50:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or the upgrade fees, you know, you go in and you get a new phone and then all of a sudden your bill, you see like a random number and you call and they're like, yeah, that's because you upgraded and I'm like, I thought I paid for the phone and that was me upgrading, but apparently not. Um, it was just one of those things where I kept paying it because that's how it's done. It's how it's always been. And then I, I got fed up and I tried Mint Mobile.

• 50:49Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and that's the whole point, right? Like stop overpaying just because it's familiar. Makes no sense.

• 50:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's where Mint Mobile kind of comes in. They exist to fix that. You get premium wireless plans starting at 15 bucks a month, which is honestly a huge difference compared to what people are used to paying.

• 51:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and Mint's great too, because it still comes with all the same essentials that you expect from your phone plan.

• 51:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, high speed data, unlimited talk and text, uh, everything we need, right? All delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. So you're not sacrificing quality. You're just paying less.

• 51:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and it's really easy to switch. You can bring your own phone number. You can activate it through eSIM in minutes and you're good to go. No contracts, no hassle. I actually had my Mint Mobile. ESIM on my iPhone with my other phone line, no issues whatsoever. I could switch between the two. Really, really simple.

• 51:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  And that means you're not locked into anything either. No contracts. You're just saving money, which feels like something we should all be doing more of. So we've tried Mint Mobile. We have found it to be not only cheaper, but give you the same kind of a service.

• 51:48Derrick Levasseur?

  That's what we want in a phone plan. You want it to work.

• 51:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. So if you like your money, Mint Mobile's for you. Shop plans at mintmobile.com/crimeweekly. That's mintmobile.com/crimeweekly. Upfront payment of $45 for three-month 5GB plan required, equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only, then full-price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.

• 52:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right, we're back. So let's return to Ralph Fernandez's letter to Tomla's husband, Lee. The letter goes on to say that it appeared Tomla had been involved in a struggle. Quote, "There were abrasions noted consistent with that scenario. There were parallel scratches to one arm. Since they were fresh, photos would have proven recent use of defensive force. There was one x-ray, yet the injury noted as the cause of death appears nowhere." End quote. Now, apparently, like I said, Fernandez had a hard time getting these case files to begin with. This is something in the letter he said he could talk at length about, but that would be for a different conversation. He then wrote, quote, "Let me conclude by telling you that my years of experience lead me to believe that 80% of cases where African-Americans die under mysterious circumstances end up closed or cold because

• 53:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  there are no videos and the only witnesses are bad guys or good guys that deep down are really bad. Then you have cases where law enforcement does a poor job and cares little to investigate thoroughly because of some connection or association to the perpetrators." End quote. Which is basically exactly what we're saying, right?

• 53:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, absolutely. Sounds like the case that we're covering right now.

• 53:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  So in response, the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office claims they took another look at the evidence at the request of Tamla's family. And they also had the GBI look over the findings. Quote, "No additional information was found." End quote. They also said that the department was prepared to have an independent agency take over the case if new information was provided and the investigation was reopened. But at that time, they had not received any new information. So understand, Ralph Fernandez's letter was sent on June 5. The Forsyth County Sheriff's Office responded within a few days saying all of that. We have no more information and we took another look and there's no new information. And then by June 12th, the Forsyth County Sheriff, Ron Freeman, sent a letter requesting

• 54:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  that the case be reopened and investigated by the GBI. So I think it's weird and kind of like strange timing that Ralph sends a letter to Lee Horsford on June 5th, being like, hey, something's going on here. Then the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office responds within a few days, being like, hey, we did take another look and we had the GBI like look over things and we found no new information, but if some new information does come up, then we'll have it reopened and we'll have the GBI look at it. And then literally by June 12th, the sheriff is having the GBI reopen the investigation and look into it. So what changed? You said you weren't going to look into it unless there was new information. So did new information come up?

• 54:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or were you just feeling public pressure? And why did you do a complete 180 within the course of, I don't know, a week?

• 54:57Derrick Levasseur?

  That's what I would lean toward, right? I, I, I've seen it firsthand where law enforcement may feel a certain way, but due to public or political pressure, AKA public pressure on politicians, they are overruled, right? They could go to a mayor or a congressman and say, we don't think there's anything else here to do. And they could say, well, that's great. That's cute. Glad you think that, but we're going to still do GBI because of the optics of it. We need to get it out of our department. We need to let an outside agency, agency look at it. So that's what it sounds like to me.

• 55:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  But, but it kind of seemed like the sheriff, Ron Freeman, was the one who made that, that request or that, that call.

• 55:33Derrick Levasseur?

  But the question is why?

• 55:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Why? Yeah.

• 55:36Derrick Levasseur?

  Why did, who did he speak with? He's got a boss as well. And I feel like something may have transpired there where he was told indirectly. This is happening.

• 55:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  So as we've already discussed, right, there's the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office investigation. They close it out. Now we know the GBI. They agree to reopen the case. And on June 12th, 2020, Special Agent in Charge Kimberly Williams, who's with the GBI, she asked Sheriff Ron Freeman to prepare a full copy of the case done by his office and to include any evidence and attachments so that Special Agent Kelly Aldrich could review the investigation. Sheriff Freeman said that since the case was closed by his office, they had limited evidence and he wasn't sure what evidence they had. Okay. So then on June 18th, Kelly Aldrich with the GBI, she contacted Verizon Wireless and she asked how long they kept cellphone tower location information.

• 56:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  She was told that Verizon kept tower location records for calls for one year and real-time text for seven to 10 days. So Aldrich then attempted, one of the first things she does is to attempt to verify Lee Horsford's location at the time of his wife's death in November of 2018. Which is crazy to me because now, I mean, I guess it's like, okay, if you're going to reopen the investigation and you're going to investigate, you should include the husband if you're trying to include like a full pool of suspects. But why is that the first thing? One of the first things you do is to look at the husband now, who wasn't even at the party.

• 57:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. Why are they moving it outside the house? There's a bunch of people there that need to be vetted thoroughly first.

• 57:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Why are you now moving it to a completely different area and focusing on Lee? So she tries to verify where Lee Horsford was at the time of Tamla's death. We also find out that Kelly Aldrich was asking Stacy Smith about Tamla's relationship with Lee. And Stacy replied that Tam loved her husband and never said anything bad about him. On July 14th, Aldrich also got search warrants for Tamla and Lee's Facebook accounts. So clearly she's trying to figure out, was this a bad marriage? Was it abusive? Was there something going on? Were they having relationship problems? And that's one of the focuses of the GBI's investigation.

• 57:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  So on June 23rd, the GBI talked to crime scene specialist Agent Elaine Honea about evidence from the crime scene that she'd been provided from the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office. One of the items was a bucket containing a blue bottle of tequila. Honea said she had been told the bottle had been submitted to the GBI crime lab for testing. However, the lab had not tested the bottle or its contents. She said the bottle was visually examined for latent prints with negative results. And after applying fingerprint powder, Honea noted several locations on the front and back of the bottle with partial fingerprints. She lifted four partial latent prints off the bottle onto cards. They were collected as evidence. Honea also packaged a Ziploc bag of suspected marijuana with an assigned GBI barcode

• 58:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  to be processed at a later date for latent fingerprints. Now, there were partial latent fingerprints located on each side of the bag near the zipper on that bag of marijuana. But the weird thing is, although we hear in the GBI's summary of this case that they lifted prints, this is and that, we never get any indication as to whose prints those were. Those are not included.

• 59:00Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm sitting here as you're speaking, wondering like, okay, well, whose prints were they?

• 59:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't know. I wish I did.

• 59:06Derrick Levasseur?

  That makes two of us.

• 59:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  So on July 14th, the GBI spoke to the Chief Medical Examiner, Dr. Jonathan Eisenstadt, about Tamla's autopsy. He stated that he had reviewed the autopsy and he agreed with Dr. Coop Miners findings that the death was an accident. The GBI report says, quote, "Horsford's death was ruled an accident due to her intoxication, injuries, and certain lack of injuries," end quote. Eisenstadt said that all of Tamla's injuries could have come from a fall off the balcony. And as for a lack of certain injuries, he said that they look for certain external injuries in regards to signs of a struggle. He said Tamla did not have any broken fingernails. Her nails were clean and short. There were no evidence of her grabbing or scratching anything.

• 59:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  She did not have bruises on her knuckles or external injuries to her neck. There were also no injuries that suggested Tamla had been hit prior to contact with the ground. Dr. Eisenstadt said that the evidence of bruising and bleeding suggested that Tamla had been alive when she impacted the ground. And it would have been possible for her to bounce slightly when she hit the ground due to the ground not being a completely flat surface. Cause if you remember those pictures, it's kind of like a slow gradient, kind of a hill thing.

• 1:00:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. Yep. I could see that.

• 1:00:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  He said that Tamla being located so close to the base of the porch suggested a fall. And if she had jumped or been pushed, she would have been further out from the base. What do you think about that?

• 1:00:31Derrick Levasseur?

  You know, I, I hate weighing in on things like that I'm not a professional in, you know, because I feel like a lot of people do that. I get frustrated when they do it and here I am doing it. I, I see it lining up just based on other cases that I've done where we've recreated the scene and I've watched the experts conduct those experiments. I talked about a case that I worked out of San Diego where the crime scene itself didn't look like that's where the person would fall. And yet upon recreation, using a dummy, a body dummy where we had the same weight, the same size, the same railing, and we just dropped the dummy over the, over the railing four or five times from different angles of where this person could have went over, uh, cause they were on a razor scooter. We were able to replicate this, a very similar

• 1:01:14Derrick Levasseur?

  fall to what was discovered at the scene. In fact, in this particular case, what we found is that when the person went over, they more than likely struck the chandelier on the way down, which we didn't originally consider, but it was in the police reports. It wasn't a case that I worked. It was a case that I was working after the fact as a PI. And that's how we were able to determine, oh, based on how this dummy went over and it hit the chandelier, that's probably what happened in the actual scenario as well. So that's a really long way of saying, I get what the, what they're saying here as far as if she had jumped over, you would expect her to kind of fall a little bit further away.

• 1:01:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  I agree.

• 1:01:51Derrick Levasseur?

  From the balcony as she fell, where if she kind of fell over or leaned over and maybe caught herself even, I had suggested that in part two or part one where your natural reaction, when you go over the railing, I know for me, when I went over that railing in New York was to try to grab onto it. Cause I wanted to save the embarrassment in front of my daughters. I was completely unsuccessful. I still went over and still fell on my ass. But it would make sense that if she tried to catch herself at the last moment, it would have caused her to drop straight down and then bounce after hitting the ground based on that, kind of that grade that you have there in front of the, the bottom floor.

• 1:02:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. But if she'd been pushed, she would have tried to catch herself as well.

• 1:02:31Derrick Levasseur?

  But he was saying, did he say in that, maybe I missed a part. I thought he said if she had jumped.

• 1:02:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or been pushed.

• 1:02:36Derrick Levasseur?

  Or had been pushed?

• 1:02:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:02:38Derrick Levasseur?

  That she would be further away. Yeah, I don't agree with that.

• 1:02:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's why I was asking you what you think about.

• 1:02:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, well then, yeah, I don't agree with that. I was thinking more towards either being, either jumping or falling. If she was pushed, I feel like it would be directly straight down.

• 1:02:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right, I agree.

• 1:02:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, but I'm not an expert.

• 1:02:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  Especially if she's already kind of leaning over or in a position where she's not completely stable or balanced, and it would just take a light push. We're not talking about somebody running, you know, getting a running start and pushing her with some extreme force that's going to propel her body out, yeah.

• 1:03:10Derrick Levasseur?

  I agree, yeah. So that long explanation, I agree with you. The only thing I would say is if she was thrown, then I would agree with that assessment.

• 1:03:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  If she was thrown, yeah.

• 1:03:17Derrick Levasseur?

  But, but, but yeah, simply pushed, accidentally or intentionally, she would try to catch herself before going over.

• 1:03:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right, yeah.

• 1:03:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I agree with you.

• 1:03:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so it just doesn't make any sense what he's saying, at least in that, in that like aspect of it. So the GBI then spoke to Dr. Andrew Koopminers, the ME who did Tomlin's autopsy, and he told them that no one from the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office had attended Tomlin's autopsy, because remember, before, they said they had. Now, also earlier, we talked about how Koopminers had claimed that he felt it was pretty straightforward that Tomlin had fallen and not been pushed, which is why he conducted his autopsy the way he did, why he didn't do a sexual assault kit, or obtain fingernail clippings, why it seems like he kind of phoned it in when it came to the photos. So, Special Agent from the GBI, Kelly Aldrich, she asked Koopminers why he felt Tomlin had fallen instead of being pushed,

• 1:04:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  when the information he had received from the police was that she could have fallen or been pushed. And he claimed that it was because he didn't see any evidence of her being pushed, even though he didn't make that final decision until he got toxicology results back. But once again, you were asked why you didn't have photos taken during the autopsy, and you said it was because you thought it was pretty straightforward. But then you also just said you didn't make the final call until you got the toxicology results back, which would be weeks after the autopsy was done. And also, you've already admitted that you kind of were like, it seems pretty straightforward. She fell. And you're saying you didn't see any evidence of her being pushed. What evidence would you see of her being pushed, dude? What are you talking about?

• 1:04:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Like, are you, are you an X-Man and you can put your hands on her and close your eyes and you can see what happened to her in the moments before her death?

• 1:04:58Derrick Levasseur?

  God, I wish.

• 1:04:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  What evidence would you see or not see of her being pushed? Did the person who pushed her have red paint on their hands? And so you saw like, you didn't see two big red handprints on her back? What is he talking about? So now, let's talk about that independent autopsy that we mentioned a little bit. And this independent autopsy was ordered by Tamla's family and the lawyer, Ralph Fernandez. They asked board-certified pathologist Dr. Adele Shaker to perform this autopsy on November 17th, 2018. So actually, not long after the original autopsy was done.

• 1:05:35Speaker 08

  I know this was a homicide. The problem is I can't pin it on anybody because I don't have a badge and I don't have a gun.

• 1:05:42Speaker 09

  We also got access to something that is not in the GBI's report. For the first time, the family is making their independent autopsy public. In it, Dr. Adele Shaker says the dislocated wrist mentioned in the GBI's report is actually a compound fracture. And the fracture in her spine isn't a fracture at all. And to him, what is most important is what the GBI's medical examiner did not find.

• 1:06:10Speaker 08

  There is no evidence of any significant injuries to the skull bones.

• 1:06:16Speaker 09

  In Dr. Shaker's report, he says the lack of broken bones in Tamla's skull make him skeptical that she died falling from the second story of a building. Now, at first, deputies on the scene seemed to agree.

• 1:06:29Speaker 10

  They showed us the mulch and the rocks in the mulch and showed where, you know, oh, she tripped and fell over this little garden border.

• 1:06:36Speaker 09

  From the homeowner to the detectives, there are statements pushing back against the idea Tamla fell from the porch.

• 1:06:45Speaker 11

  If you went to brace yourself with your left hand, there ain't nothing there to brace yourself with. And you span, you know what I'm saying?

• 1:06:51Speaker 09

  And even more unusual, how the homeowner and her boyfriend found Tamla's arms.

• 1:06:56Speaker 10

  It's the weirdest thing. She was face down, but like her arms were down like she just face planted is the best way I can describe it.

• 1:07:06Speaker 03

  So her arms were like by her side?

• 1:07:08Speaker 10

  Yeah, they were by her side, palms up.

• 1:07:11Speaker 09

  It's a question we heard several times in the investigation because when you look at the scene photos, Tamla's left arm is actually off to the side, bent, her fingers curled under.

• 1:07:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so Dr. Shaker said that Tamla's wrist was not dislocated, it was a compound fracture. So in the crime scene photos, and I'll have you pull these up again if you need to look at them, you can see a bone sticking out on Tamla's right wrist. But there was very little blood found at the scene, which raised the question of whether or not that injury happened on the spot where Tamla was found. So you can also hear in that report we just listened to, there is a small amount of blood on Tamla's sleeve, but they said it's on her left sleeve, not her right sleeve, right? That's what they said. So Adele Shaker, the independent pathologist, he described the injury to Tamla's left wrist

• 1:08:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  as being postmortem. And Tamla's father said, quote, "I don't think she died with that cut. I think it was put there after the fact," end quote. We're gonna talk about this in more detail because I'm confused. So Dr. Shaker also said there was no evidence of significant traumatic injuries to Tamla's skull bones or the cervical vertebrae. This is very different, the, as far as the cervical vertebrae goes, but basically what Dr. Shaker is saying, I don't see how she can fall from a second story balcony onto her head and have all of this internal issues, but not have any like breaks or fractures or anything like that to her skull. That's what he's saying.

• 1:08:44Derrick Levasseur?

  You expect to have that or a broken neck or something.

• 1:08:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right. So on August 11th, 2020, the GBI agent Kelly Aldrich received a call from both Jonathan Eisenstadt and Andrew Coopminers. And this was after the independent autopsy had been released and the media was reporting about it. And they told her that they had listened to the Murder Squad podcast on Spotify relating to Tamla's death. And in that podcast, they had heard information about the independent autopsy and they wanted to clear some things up. And this is funny to me, right? Because by this time, the GBI doesn't have the full independent autopsy. It's just being reported on the news and in the media. And Dr. Koop Miners and Dr. Eisenstadt are like, we heard this, we heard about this

• 1:09:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  on the podcast, and we want to like, address these things. So they said it was mentioned that Dr. Shaker's autopsy showed an absence of a hematoma and hemorrhage surrounding Tamla's fracture on her right wrist. Dr. Eisenstadt stated that there was blood around the fracture, but Tamla had not survived long enough after the fracture for a hematoma to form, which makes sense, actually. So

• 1:09:51Derrick Levasseur?

  Makes sense.

• 1:09:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. Eisenstadt also said that the absence of subcutaneous subgaleal hemorrhage, or lacerations of Tamla's scalp, was also not surprising to him because she had landed on a grassy surface. So some people were like, oh, but you said that she had a hemorrhage in the autopsy. Yes, that was said in the autopsy, that there were hemorrhages, but not subcutaneous, as Dr. Eisenstadt is stating. So subcutaneous means like, on the external.

• 1:10:23Derrick Levasseur?

  On the surface.

• 1:10:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Like an actual cut.

• 1:10:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. So there were internal hemorrhages and things

• 1:10:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  like between her brain and the

• 1:10:30Derrick Levasseur?

  We've heard that all before, internal hemorrhaging. We've heard that before.

• 1:10:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  There was just no external or subcutaneous hemorrhages to match the internal injuries. And he's saying that's because she fell on a grassy surface.

• 1:10:42Derrick Levasseur?

  So nothing split her open?

• 1:10:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  I guess.

• 1:10:44Derrick Levasseur?

  Essentially like, yeah, like a cutter open.

• 1:10:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Even though you'd think if you fell face down and you, you had that much trauma inside the brain, that, yeah, it's grass, but there's also like, hard ground underneath, and it's November, so the ground's

• 1:10:55Derrick Levasseur?

  Like a rock or something.

• 1:10:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  Ground's cold, you know, it's not like a soft ground.

• 1:10:59Derrick Levasseur?

  If we're being impartial here, I could see it, you're falling from about 20 feet, you fall on the grass, it may not cut you open. It may not.

• 1:11:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  I agree. I agree. I mean, I don't know how soft their grass was, how thick it was.

• 1:11:11Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, we don't know. Like you said, a lot of variables, but like, also, to your point, if there was one little rock in the grass that, you know, they didn't see, and she landed on that, it could have split her wide open, and we would have been like, well, how'd she get so cut open on grass? So it's all, it's all dependent on the crime scene.

• 1:11:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, they would have known that if they, you know, processed the crime scene and found the rock, but

• 1:11:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Touche, touche. Well, they ain't gonna do that, so.

• 1:11:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, uh, we're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back.

• 1:11:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  We are so excited to introduce you to Bullshot, the high-performance foam cleaning sprays.

• 1:11:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and I feel like everyone has had that mess in their house somewhere where they've just kind of accepted it. And no joke, I love Bullshot. I got it in the mail. I was like, okay, I'm kind of skeptical about this. Let me try it. So to make a long story very short, I tried to do like some roasted garlic with butter in my oven. And I'm a dummy and I didn't like line the pan and all the butter came out onto the bottom of my brand new oven. I tried everything, white vinegar, baking soda, would not, could not get the stuff off the bottom of my oven. So I'm like, you know what, what do I have to lose? Got this new product, let's try it. Put it on there, you get the spray foam, it starts to like, you actually see it like bubbling. I'm like, okay, something's going on here. Let it sit for about 30 minutes, wiped it up, came right off. I'm a customer for life, just based on that.

• 1:12:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so you're talking about the foaming degreaser, right? And it is no joke. So it actually clings to surfaces. It can break down really tough messes like grease oil, even things like tape residue, which is crazy. You spray it, like you said, let it sit for, you know, well, it depends on the level of the, of the issue.

• 1:12:47Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I let mine sit longer because this was a tough one.

• 1:12:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  And then you just wipe it, minimal scrubbing, which is amazing. And I will also say for me, it's the, is the carpet cleaner, okay, because I-

• 1:12:59Derrick Levasseur?

  Already gone through the whole can, unfortunately with my dog, Vinny.

• 1:13:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I have four dogs and I, I have really tried to get rid of as much carpet in my house as possible because these dogs just do not respect me at all. This really does work, the Bullshot carpet cleaner, I stand by it. And it doesn't just cover smells either, it actually neutralizes odors at the source, which makes a huge difference, especially if you have pets.

• 1:13:22Derrick Levasseur?

  And just another thing to note, because I think it's important with some of these cleaners, it's not always the case. It's safe on most water-safe fabrics, right? So if you have a carpet that's allowed to be wet- This is gonna be fine. You still want to test it, but it dries fast. There's no residue. Any stains that I've had on my carpets, I got brand new carpets. I've used the Bullshot. I've let it dry, let it air dry. No problems whatsoever, and I have very light carpets.

• 1:13:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, so rugs, upholstery, car mats. It's fast drying. It's residue free. You're not left with that sticky feeling that attracts more dirt or some weird like outlined stain. So for us, it's just made cleaning easier. It actually works on the stuff that doesn't usually come out and you can see the difference right away. So if you want quality you can trust backed by 100% satisfaction guarantee, check it out. And now for a limited time, get up to 20% off Bullshot and free shipping when you text CRIME20 to 64,000. One more time, that's CRIME20 to 64,000 for up to 20% off and free shipping. Text CRIME20 to 64,000. Message and data rates may apply.

• 1:14:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, we're back. So there had also been mentions of scratches on Tamla's hands and wrists that could have been defensive wounds. And Dr. Kootminers claimed, yeah, they were there, but they were minor. And he said there was no way to tell if they were from the fall or had happened before the fall. But if you go back to Kootminers' original autopsy, he wrote that there were abrasions to Tamla's face, her left arm, her left hand, etc. And he said, quote, "The observed injuries are consistent with those received in a fall," end quote. So it's kind of, once again, I'm not saying you're covering anything up. I'm saying you did a really like phone it in kind of autopsy. And in the autopsy, you're listing these abrasions and these injuries and you're saying they're consistent with a fall.

• 1:15:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  But now, when it's being suggested these injuries could be defensive wounds and you don't have photographs to show why they're not, because you just said they weren't in your report, now you're like, well, we don't know when those injuries happened. Well, also, if she was defending herself against somebody, it would have happened before the fall. But he's basically saying she could have gotten them at any time. You know, maybe earlier that day or the day before. He doesn't know. Well, that's, that's why you take pictures. So you could see how fresh they are.

• 1:15:41Derrick Levasseur?

  When you were mentioning earlier, the cigarette butts, right? You don't take it because you anticipate there being a problem. You take it to make sure there's not a problem, right? You do it so that if in the off chance, someone comes in and offers an alternate theory that you don't believe is true based on the evidence. You can reference photos from the day of the crime where you can say, hey, what you were saying, it's not possible because look here, you can see photos of the scene and you can see that that's not there. But when you don't take them, you open up a void that can't be filled. And whatever it is filled with is essentially conjecture. It's just, it's an opinion on the matter and there's no way to substantiate it.

• 1:16:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I'll remind you, Dr. Koot Miners did not take pictures of these injuries and certainly not with a scale. But he did describe a one-fourth by one-eighth inch superficial abrasion of a Tamla's interior left arm and a one-eighth by one-eighth inch abrasion on Tamla's left index finger. I guess my question would be, how were her injuries described as consistent with the fall? If Koot Miners is now saying he doesn't know if some of the injuries happened before or during the fall? And given his description of the injuries on her arm and hand, the abrasions would be very small based on those measurements. But like you said, without valid photographic documentation with a scale to measure, we simply have to take his word that they were that small.

• 1:17:00Derrick Levasseur?

  That's it. And nobody's going to do that anymore. There's so much mistrust within our government agencies. You need to treat it as if it's going to be questioned by the court of public opinion. A great example, you just mentioned these pathologists coming out and saying, well, we were listening to this podcast. That's the world we live in now. Everything is going to be questioned.

• 1:17:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  The pathologists are like, we heard about this on the murder squad and we want to address it.

• 1:17:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, rest in peace murder squad. They're not even around anymore. But it's like they have, they have a big following and they had a lot of people who, who were tuning into that show and. They're going to question it and then there's no way for you to dispute it other than coming out and voicing your opinions, but without any evidence to support it. And you're going to have a large portion of the audience is going to go, hmm, yeah, I still don't believe you.

• 1:17:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. And I mean, that's pretty much what happened, which is why I think, I think these, these pathologists were like, hey, we're getting some heat here. And, you know, this independent autopsy came out and doesn't necessarily match everything we said. So let's try to get ahead of this. And they called the GBI and they want to discuss it.

• 1:18:02Derrick Levasseur?

  There's egos too in that. There's all egos. You have somebody coming in and questioning your work.

• 1:18:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Let's talk about the wrist though, because I'm stuck here. We have the GBI, Dr. Coop Minor saying it's a dislocation. And then we have Dr. Adele Shaker, the independent autopsy saying it's not, it's a, a compound fracture. Well, a fracture versus a dislocation is not a small disagreement. Okay. They are structurally different injuries. A fracture is a broken bone and that would usually cause significant bleeding. A dislocation means the bones are no longer in their normal joint position, which can be obviously still painful and severe, but that's often going to have less bleeding than a fracture or no bleeding at all. However, an open fracture, which is what Dr. Adele Shaker was saying, that

• 1:18:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  involves the bone piercing the skin. And that's when you can see the bones visibly out of place or protruding.

• 1:18:54Derrick Levasseur?

  That's what I thought a compound fracture was.

• 1:18:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or they call it an open fracture because the skin's broken.

• 1:18:58Derrick Levasseur?

  But a compound fracture in general is the piercing of the skin, right?

• 1:19:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. And

• 1:19:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, okay.

• 1:19:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  We are looking at these pictures and I'm confused because I'm not necessarily seeing what's being reported. So I see Tom's right wrist and the bone is bulging. So that definitely is the wrist that is fractured or dislocated. And in another picture, you can see what looks like a bloody spot that may be where the bone broke through the skin. And with dislocation, you can also see the bone looking out of place or even creating a visible bump beneath the skin, but you won't typically see the bone break through the skin, however. So if that's what they're seeing happen, and we're kind of looking at the pictures, and I can see that there is blood on her wrist, and it could potentially be from where the bone is poking through the skin, which would make it a compound fracture.

• 1:19:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  But if that's what the GBI took pictures of, and that's what they noticed, I don't see how Dr. Kootminers could have ever called it a dislocation. I don't get it. I'm also looking at the pictures, though, and I see Tom's left hand and arm. And the wrist that is not injured is her left hand and arm. Okay, that's the hand she wore her reading ring on. That's her left hand. There does not appear to be blood on the sleeve of that arm, as was reported by Dr. Shaker in his independent autopsy, and then 11 Alive News ran with that, and they were like, here's the problem, like, her wrist is injured, and there's blood on her sleeve, but the blood is on the left sleeve, and her injury on

• 1:20:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  the wrist is on her right sleeve, or on her right hand. I'm looking at the pictures. I just don't, I don't see what's going on here, because there, there doesn't appear to be blood on the sleeve of her left arm at all. In these pictures, the blood looks to be on the sleeve of her right arm, and that's also the wrist that's injured.

• 1:20:49Derrick Levasseur?

  I wonder if it's underneath these images that we're not seeing.

• 1:20:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  But then there'd still be blood on both. I mean, I, I don't know. Why, I don't know.

• 1:20:57Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I know. That's, I'm, I'm looking at the photo. I'm also looking at the close-up.

• 1:21:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Dr. Shaker would have received Tom's body and her clothes separately, so maybe he got it wrong. You know, maybe he thought like...

• 1:21:10Derrick Levasseur?

  You'd still know your left from your right, though, Stephanie, right?

• 1:21:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, they're zip-up pajamas, right? So maybe, I don't know, man. I'm trying to figure out how you can make such a stupid mistake, but maybe he thought, oh, these pajamas zip up in the back or something. And so he, like, turned it around. I don't know. No, because it had a hood on it. I don't know.

• 1:21:28Derrick Levasseur?

  That's what I'm saying. I mean, it's...

• 1:21:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  But you heard it. They said that in the report, that this, the blood's on the wrong sleeve. In these crime scene photos, it does not appear to be on the wrong sleeve. It appears to be on the sleeve that corresponds with her wrist injury.

• 1:21:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Which would make sense with the compound fracture. You have some type of sharp bone piercing the skin. Doesn't have to be a huge hole, but it could be something there where you're going to have some hemorrhaging. You know, some blood, even though if she, if, if she died shortly after, you may not have a ton. The heart's going to stop pumping.

• 1:21:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly. And Dr. Eisenstadt said that, right? The lack of blood at the scene, it could be because Tamla's heart wasn't pumping long enough after the injury occurred to produce that much blood. Or if you're in Tamla's camp and you think that foul play happened, the blood loss occurred somewhere else.

• 1:22:16Derrick Levasseur?

  And I know that some people have talked about it. I'm curious to see what our audience thinks about that idea as far as there being something else that occurred here completely, where Tamla was dead before she went over the balcony.

• 1:22:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I don't see, it's very similar to the case with John O'Keefe, right? Where it's like they had this whole thing where he went into the basement and then they beat him up and then the dog attacked him and then they dragged him out to the yard and left him there to be found. In this case, although I don't think anything is straightforward, I don't believe that Tamla's body was moved. Or that something else happened, some sort of altercation, some fight. And then her body was moved there to make it look as if she had fallen. I think she fell.

• 1:23:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I mean, I know there are people that believe it. It is, it is hard, although with the evidence not being consistent, especially in the photos, I get it. Like, for example, that one of the witnesses said that both arms were down by the side. And yet we have a photo, clearly that's not the case, so you have to wonder.

• 1:23:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, because Jose moved her arm is what, what they, yeah.

• 1:23:19Derrick Levasseur?

  That's what they're saying. Or is it a misremembrance of what actually occurred? What was your story, quote unquote, your story to say when you were interviewed? I, I tend to believe whether it was an accident or intentional. Whatever happened, happened and she, she landed where she did. And I don't believe that she was significantly injured or killed prior to this. And then thrown over the balcony to make it look like it. I do get where people are coming from saying, yeah, listen, if her heart had already stopped before being pushed over the railing, then they, yeah, there wouldn't be that much blood with a compound fracture. I get it, but I think there'd be other pieces of evidence within that house. I believe she would have been killed inside that home.

• 1:24:01Derrick Levasseur?

  And I know this is a tough leap to make because I've already pointed out how shitty the investigation was. But I would think that if there was something inside the home, a cleanup, if you will, of a, of a, an assault that took place at some other location in the house, you would have evidence of that. And I know what the counterpoint will be.

• 1:24:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  They didn't look for that.

• 1:24:21Derrick Levasseur?

  They didn't look for it. And you know what my response is? You're right. But based on what we have, even though what we have is horrible, it's not good. It's not a solid foundation to work off of. It doesn't appear that she was killed somewhere else and then moved there. I also think that if there was more blood, you would see it somewhere on her. There would be more staining on her, on her PJs.

• 1:24:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, exactly. She's got pretty much, you know, white.

• 1:24:45Derrick Levasseur?

  She's got a couple of droplets here. Even if we're having a discrepancy about where they're located, there's a couple of droplets, a small amounts. You would expect to see a lot more.

• 1:24:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  I have no doubt that she died because she fell off that balcony.

• 1:24:57Derrick Levasseur?

  The question is.

• 1:24:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  The question is, I don't think, I can't imagine how anybody just goes out to have a cigarette and then ends up falling over a balcony that the, the railing is pretty good, waist high. It doesn't seem to be an accident is what I'm saying. So I think that people point to the cause of death being multiple blunt force trauma injuries. And they're like, well, how did she get multiple ones?

• 1:25:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Maybe there's some type of fight that happens before she goes over is what you're saying?

• 1:25:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, I think they're saying like she was beaten to get multiple, but you know, the, the GBI and they were saying, well, her head bounced maybe, and that's why, which that doesn't even really make sense. But are they multiple blunt force injuries? Because then we come back to the fact where Dr. Shaker is saying there's no fracture of the cervical vertebrae either. And that was supposedly one of the main reasons. Why she had died and we're going to talk about that. So the GBI did review Dr. Shaker's findings. They eventually got the report and they said, quote, "Shaker was not able to determine a precise and accurate determination of the cause of death due to the time elapsed between Tamla's death and his autopsy and the dissection of Tamla's organs from the first autopsy. Shaker stated the absence of subcutaneous subgallial hemorrhages

• 1:26:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  or lacerations of the scalp and depressed slash linear fracture of the calvarula bone", which I had to look that up. The calvarula bone is a skull cap. It's the bones that are all fused together that make up like your skull. So the frontal bone, top and sides of heads, the occipital bone, the back of the head, that's the, the calvarula bone. This, this raised a red flag to Shaker as to Tamla's death occurring from a second story fall, end quote. Shaker told Lee Horsford that without an MRI, he couldn't tell what injuries Tamla had to her neck or brain, but he did not see a neck fracture when he was dissecting Tamla's neck or in dissecting Tamla's neck. So Kelly Eldridge then went

• 1:26:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  back to Dr. Kootminers and she's like, what do you think about all this? And he stated that he didn't feel the autopsy done by Dr. Shaker was all that different from the one that he had conducted. He said that they had noted different abrasions. He'd noted some that Dr. Shaker hadn't and Dr. Shaker had noticed some that he hadn't. But now, Dr. Kootminers actually agreed with Dr. Shaker that Tamla's neck was not broken. So remember, Kootminers autopsy report stated a fracture of the C2 vertebrae. And that does actually mean a broken neck. A fractured C2 vertebrae means my neck's broken. Okay. The C2 vertebrae is one of the most important neck bones. It sits just below the skull. It helps you

• 1:27:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  rotate your head side to side. It's very close to the brain stem and the spinal cord. So a fracture there can do a lot of things. It can disrupt breathing. It can cause paralysis. It can lead to rapid or immediate death in severe cases. And the way that it was described in the autopsy by Dr. Kootminers, it was a pretty severe break. Now, the GBI report says, quote, "Dr. Koopminers said that it was more of a crack, which was caused from hyperextending of Horsford's neck when she hit the ground. He stated that would not be a fatal injury. He stated that the laceration of the heart, along with head trauma, would have been Horsford's fatal injuries," end quote. So now, Dr. Koopminers, who does the autopsy on Tama,

• 1:28:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  he's looking at Dr. Shaker's autopsy and he's like, "Actually, I do agree with that. I know I said the neck was broken, but now, yeah, I could kind of see how it wasn't. There was a crack there and it was from her neck hyperextending when she hit the ground." Which, to me, Derek, look at me. Is this what he means? When she hits the ground, her neck hyperextends like the ground catches her here? And she goes up like that? Or did he mean like down like that?

• 1:28:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, I would think it could be either, right? Like it's hyperextending.

• 1:28:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, it couldn't be like this because her face was planted in the ground.

• 1:28:49Derrick Levasseur?

  But what it could be, though, is like you just did with, and I hope that you guys are all watching on YouTube to see her do that because that was hilarious. But I mean, it would be an overextension of the neck in any direction. It could be on the side, it could be on the back, it could be on the front. Like, we have a natural angle that our neck can stretch to and overextending it either forward, backward, or sideways could be what he's trying to explain. But can we, can we go back for a second? Because I don't want to demonize the aspect of a pathologist. And I'm not saying you're demonizing it, but just the idea of a pathologist conducting an exam, having an outside party look at it and say, "Actually, you're wrong. You missed something."

• 1:29:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, he didn't have an outside party look at it. It wasn't his choice.

• 1:29:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, he didn't do it, but I'm saying an outside, which makes it even more true what I'm about to say. An independent party coming in and saying, "No, you got that wrong." And him being willing to say, "I got that wrong." Because I'll tell you, in my experience, that's not normally the case. These examiners double and triple down on their original examination and will justify their assessment based on something that's no longer true, based on what was found. So, I'm not saying he's a hero for doing, you know, for correcting the record, but I do like the fact that he was willing to come out and say, "You know what? After seeing what he said, I actually agree with that."

• 1:30:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or is that exactly what he wanted you to think?

• 1:30:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Is that exactly what he wanted you to think? I'll give him something so it looks like I'm open to this. Do, do you, do you justify demonizing a medical examiner or pathologist for mistaking a crack in the neck for a broken neck?

• 1:30:23Derrick Levasseur?

  I think mistakes happen. I'm not saying it's justified. I'm just saying people make mistakes. They might've missed something, but being able to admit you were wrong is important. And we have a lot of pathologists that I've dealt with that will not do it. Devin Schmidt, man, I've never, that case will bother me until the day I die with those medical examiners. Idiots, they shouldn't even have a license, but that's a different story for a different day. I had pathologists come in and prove them wrong.

• 1:30:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, we've all seen that, but for something like this, he's pretty much doubling down on everything else. He's just like, yeah, maybe I got the, maybe I got the broken neck wrong. Like, big whoop. That was a pretty major injury in your autopsy report, Dr. Koot Miners. That was pretty major.

• 1:31:04Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm not going to give him an award for getting it wrong. I'm just saying we need more people to be willing to admit they're, they're, they're wrong when they are, um, including detectives.

• 1:31:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, he didn't admit to being wrong about not taking pictures. He made up some bullshit excuse about it being a miscommunication.

• 1:31:16Derrick Levasseur?

  And that's, that's the problem.

• 1:31:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:18Derrick Levasseur?

  That is a problem.

• 1:31:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  So where it counts, he doesn't really, uh, show much humility here. All right, so on November 13th, Kelly Eldridge of the GBI, she received several reports from the GBI's Division of Forensic Sciences, including a leafy material drug identification, latent prints, and semen identification. Yes, you heard right, semen identification, because apparently during an examination of Tom's pajamas, tank top, shorts, and bra, stains that had the characteristics of semen were revealed. Quote, "Chemical examination of the tank top indicated the presence of seminal fluid, but serological examination failed to confirm the presence of seminal fluid. Microscopic examination of the smear prepared from the tank top failed to reveal the presence

• 1:32:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  of identifiable spermatoza. Chemical examination of the pajama one piece, the shorts and the bra failed to reveal the presence of seminal fluid." End quote. Now, this is important because first of all, I'm not sure why the hell they're looking for spermatoza. You wouldn't expect to see spermatoza on clothing a year and a half after that clothing was collected because that wouldn't be there. Sperm can't live outside of the body for, for a year and a half. Just chilling on clothes. I'm not sure why they'd be looking at that or for that through a microscope, but it's important to understand that they're basically saying, hey, there were basically swabs taken from the pajamas, from the tank top, the bra, and there were

• 1:32:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  components there that had characteristics of semen. They said that the chemical examination of the tank top indicated the presence of seminal fluid, but then a serological examination failed to confirm the presence of seminal fluid. We're going to talk about that more, but first we're going to take our last break. We'll be right back.

• 1:33:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  I've been doing a little bit of a spring reset with my closet lately, and I'm realizing, even though I always am like, I have nothing to wear, I don't need more clothes, I just need better ones.

• 1:33:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, fewer pieces, but ones that you're actually going to wear. I'm in the same boat.

• 1:33:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly, exactly. Things that are well-made, easy to throw on, kind of go with everything, and just make you feel put together without trying too hard. That's why we both keep going back to Quince. They make these really beautiful everyday pieces using premium materials like 100% European linen, organic cotton, and soft denim, but the prices don't feel like what you'd expect for that quality.

• 1:33:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and that's the balance, right? Quality, but without the high markup. And I love Quince. I can't talk about them enough. I give them an endorsement every time we cover them. And in fact, last episode, I had like the cream colored shirt on before we started recording. I looked at Stephanie, I was like, see, always wearing it. She's like, we don't even have Quince today. I'm like, I know, and I'm still wearing it. I just, I love their clothing. I love how they fit on me. I love the fact that it looks really high-end, but it's not super expensive.

• 1:34:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and they work directly with ethical factories, and they cut out the middleman. So that's why it's not that expensive, because you're paying for the materials and the craftsmanship, not the brand name. And their spring pieces are perfect right now. You guys have to check them out. I always go on every few months to see what new things they've added, because they'll do that seasonally. They got some stuff that's great, lightweight, breathable, just effortless. You can throw something on, instantly look like you planned your outfit.

• 1:34:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and it's not just clothes, are there?

• 1:34:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, actually, their accessories are really nice, too. And I didn't even know up until a few months ago that that was an option, because I was kind of just going straight to the clothes. They have leather bags made from hand-woven Italian leather. I got, um... One of those like kind of beach bag things that looks really like upgraded. They honestly look way more expensive than they are. So.

• 1:34:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it's my secret weapon for sure. So refresh your spring wardrobe with Quince. Go to quince.com/crimeweekly for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada as well. Once again, that's Q U I N C E dot com slash crimeweekly for free shipping and 365 day returns. One more time, quince.com/crimeweekly.

• 1:35:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  Do you ever catch yourself doing something on autopilot and you don't even realize it until you're already doing it?

• 1:35:24Derrick Levasseur?

  All the time. That's basically my entire day.

• 1:35:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's what makes habits so hard to break because you're doing it, you know, unconsciously. It's not even about thinking. It's just automatic. You're on autopilot. And with things like vaping and smoking, often we find it's not even just about the nicotine. It's the hand to mouth motion, that oral fixation, the little pause your brain expects throughout your routine.

• 1:35:44Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it's the routine that your brain is used to.

• 1:35:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  And that's where fume comes in. It actually makes a lot of sense. It's a flavored air device designed to help people quit vaping or smoking by breaking that habit loop. There's no nicotine, no batteries, no vapor. It's just a weighted fidget friendly tool that gives your hands and mouth something else to do.

• 1:36:01Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. So instead of just trying to stop, you're actually replacing that habit. And it's those moments where I instinctively, I found myself reaching for fume as a fidget device instead of doing something else. Like I do it all the time in the episode. You guys may not see it, but it, it's funny how you can get yourself into a rut and by grabbing something you're familiar with, it breaks that, that loop, right? And that's what we're trying to do here.

• 1:36:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. And you've got yours with you right now, too.

• 1:36:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep. I have mine on the set all the time. You guys have seen it. If you're on YouTube, can see the clicks there with the magnets. Still holding up. By the way, I've had this fume for over three years. The exact same one you've always seen. It still looks as good and I, I fidget with it almost every single day. No issues. Just as good as it was the first day I got it.

• 1:36:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  I can attest that he fidgets with it all the time because sometimes I'll be reading and like talking for, for crime weekly and I can hear it in the background. Click, click, click. And I'm like, Derek, you can't do that.

• 1:36:49Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm trying to be better. I tried to do the. This better because you can't really hear that in the mic unless I'm close.

• 1:36:55Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 1:37:19Derrick Levasseur?

  That's my favorite.

• 1:37:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  So good. It's already helped a lot of people. Over 700,000 people have taken steps toward better habits with Fume. And when you grab a journey pack, you're also going to get a free gift for just using our code. So head to tryfum.com, that's T R Y F U M E dot com, and use code CRIMEWEEKLY to claim your free gift today.

• 1:37:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, we're back. So let's talk about this alleged presence of semen. And once again, I want to be as fair and unbiased as I possibly can be. So even if I think there's something suspicious going on with this case, which I 100% do, I'm also not trying to look at things through like tunnel vision and just see everything as kind of evidence that there is something suspicious going on. So they had collected paint samples from the porch of John Myers' home, which by the time the GBI is doing their investigation, John Myers doesn't live there anymore. But the report says that the questioned material on the back of Tom's pajamas was atypical of paint and did not originate from the back porch at the scene. So basically, there was a spot on Tom's pajamas

• 1:38:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  that they thought could have been seminal fluid. And then they were like, well, let's look into it more. It also could be paint, so let's look at the paint that was on the back porch. Maybe that's what it was from. And they're saying, no, it's not from that. So Kelly Aldrich also asked Jim Sebastian, the biology manager at the Department of Forensic Science, why the chemical examination of Tom's tank top would indicate the presence of semen and the serological examination would fail to reveal the presence of semen. And he said, Basically, he said they do their screening, their initial screening, using a light source to find stains that glow. Now semen can glow, but so can saliva, detergent, and other bodily fluids. He said they then applied a chemical to the areas that glowed,

• 1:39:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  and the chemical reacts to acid phosphatase, an enzyme that is found in high amounts in semen, but, important to note, not unique to semen. It can also be found in other things. It can be found in vaginal secretions, and also the blood of people with prostate cancer. So Jim said this test is sensitive, but not specific to semen, which is why they moved on to the serological test, which looks for proteins specific to seminal fluid. They did not find those. So basically, what they said at that point is, it must not be semen. We don't know, we don't know what it is.

• 1:39:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I mean, this is a tough one, because you have to go through the different stages. Obviously, the first stage, where you're looking through a light source, you're thinking, hey, maybe we have something positive. And you go on to the next phase, where you find the enzyme associated with semen. Okay, good, this might mean something. This crime could be sexual in nature. So you go to the last layer, and fortunately, unfortunately, however you want to look at it, there's no protein specific to semen found in it. So although the first two checked off, the last one didn't. So the one thing you can't say is, oh, you know what, I still think it's semen. It's not. It's not semen, so we can rule that out. But as you mentioned, it could be associated with vaginal secretion. We are talking about a victim who is a woman. And so to think that there could be some type of vaginal secretion found on her clothing, I don't think is out of the ordinary.

• 1:40:31Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't think that's a crazy thought. So that's where my thought goes. More than likely, it belonged to her. I don't really, based on those three tests, think of anything else it could be. I know there are going to be people who probably come back and say, oh, no, I still think it's semen. I think that there's a cover up. And to that, I say, you got to show me something to prove it, but without, with the lack of that evidence, I can't go there.

• 1:40:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  So I kind of went down that path, thinking people could say that. And I was like, well, it's been a year and a half. Like, could the sample on her clothes have degraded to the point where? With the serological test, it wouldn't pick up the seminal fluid and that was kind of squashed. No, they would, the serological test even that long after it would still be picking that stuff up. It wouldn't, like I said, be seeing sperm like they were looking through a microscope for, for some reason, but it would still be reacting to seminal fluids. So.

• 1:41:21Derrick Levasseur?

  With the serological tests, it could be years later. They have gone back and found, you know, or, or have had pairs of underwear or other items of clothing that were preserved correctly. They've gone back and been able to swab and do a serological test and confirm that what they were looking at was in fact semen many years later. So yes, that, that is something that wouldn't dissipate over a period of time if preserved correctly.

• 1:41:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Once again, this does not rule out a potential theory that there was an advance made on her. She rejected it or got upset and a struggle ensued that ended up with her falling off a balcony. It just means it did not progress to a seminal.

• 1:42:05Derrick Levasseur?

  A sexual assault.

• 1:42:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, type of situation. So.

• 1:42:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 1:42:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, the GBI spoke to everyone at the party. We know that. We heard excerpts from their interviews. And then they got permission to extract their cell phones. Now, since then, Marcy Harden had gotten a new phone. Now, when Jose agreed to the extraction, he said he would allow it when he got back from a vacation he was going on. Agent Derek Glasgow told Jose, just remember, don't delete anything from your phone. And this is what he had told him the first time GBI had talked to Jose. And then Jose then said to Glasgow, well, actually, I have deleted some photos and emails that weren't relevant to this case since the last time we spoke, even though you told me not to. So basically what I'm saying is the first time they talked to Jose and they talk about extracting his cell phone, he's like, yeah, I'll give it to you later. And they're like, okay, that's fine. But

• 1:42:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  just remember, don't delete anything. And he's like, I won't. Then they talked to him again. And he's like, yeah, I'll give it to you when I get back from my vacation. And Derek Glasgow's like, okay, but once again, remember, don't delete anything. Like I told you last time. And Jose's like, well, actually, after you told me that last time, I did delete stuff, even though you told me not to, but it wasn't important. So don't worry.

• 1:43:09Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, as long as he said it wasn't important, it must not have been important.

• 1:43:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly.

• 1:43:12Derrick Levasseur?

  We're good.

• 1:43:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  So when they're talking to him at that time, Jose was asked if he was open to taking a polygraph. He said, yeah, he was, I'm gonna think about it. I'll speak to you guys about it when I get back from vacation. So he gets back from the vacation. The GBI took Jose's iPhone on August 3rd, and they found that there was no text messages from 2018. Now, by 2020, Jean and Jose had broken up. He claims it was due to the pressure of Tamla's investigation and the accusations that happened afterwards. But between June and August of 2020, Jose and Jean were texting each other about Tamla's case being reopened by the GBI, and they talked about how they were both being interviewed. Once again, the GBI report that is available to us does not say what they were talking about.

• 1:43:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  So if they were just saying, oh, hey, you know, the GBI reopened Tamla's case, and we are both being asked to talk to them, that's one thing. But if they were telling each other specific things like, remember to say this, and remember to say this, or if they were trying to recollect things so that they could make sure their stories were straight, that's a different kind of conversation. The GBI report does not clarify what kind of conversations were being had, just that they were talking about both being interviewed. The GBI had requested records from Verizon for Jose's cellphone records for November 4th, 2018, from 12 a.m. to 10 a.m. I remember, that's the day that Tamla apparently fell off the balcony. And Verizon stated there was no records available during that timeframe.

• 1:44:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  So the GBI asked, well, was this because Jose didn't use his phone on that date and at that time? And Verizon said, no, it's because Jose didn't use Verizon on that date and time. So after Tamla's death, before the GBI took his phone, he got a whole ass new phone and a whole ass new cellular service carrier. And so I wonder why he didn't feel that it was relevant to let the GBI know that, like, yeah, I'll give you my phone, but I've switched phones and carriers since, so there's really not gonna be anything in there that would interest you from 2018. You know, because I think he was hoping they didn't realize that that was the case. So the GBI report that is publicly available ends on July 19th, 2021. And on July 28th, 2021, the investigation concluded.

• 1:45:21Speaker 12

  Developing tonight, a mysterious death of a mom in Forsyth County will not bring any criminal charges. The GBI says it completed its investigation in the Tamla Horsford case. However, her family's attorney tells him, Tisha Lance, this is not over just yet.

• 1:45:37Speaker 08

  If it takes me 20 years and I can live that long, I'll be working on this case.

• 1:45:41Speaker 13

  For more than two years, the family of Tamla Horsford have been waiting for answers on what led to the death of the wife and mother of five. On Tuesday, a GBI spokesperson released a statement saying the Forsyth County District Attorney's review of the case do not support criminal charges.

• 1:45:56Speaker 08

  I mean, this is not a shocking bit of news. This is anticipated.

• 1:45:59Speaker 13

  Horsford's family attorney says this does not mean the case is closed.

• 1:46:03Speaker 08

  Anytime there's a homicide, until it is resolved, the investigation is subject to being reopened.

• 1:46:10Speaker 13

  He has yet to receive the case file and says issues he's raised with the case have never been addressed. Fernandez says he's invested 500 pro bono hours into the case and will put in 10,000 more if it means finding out the truth.

• 1:46:23Speaker 08

  There's not going to be any surrender. We're not going to go away. You know, there's going to be justice served in this case.

• 1:46:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, and that's basically where things stand now. The Forsyth County Sheriff's Office does their terrible investigation. They're like, nothing to see here, it's an accident. The GBI then does another investigation, I would say more in depth. They actually did things like pull cell phone records and, you know, looked at evidence and questioned people pretty thoroughly. And they found out some stuff, right? Like the Bridget thing with the Xanax, they caught her in that. They found out Jose's kind of being sketchy with his phone. And, you know, they found out some stuff that doesn't look great for the people that were at the party, but ultimately, they also declined to press any charges. Now, that doesn't mean that the people investigating with the GBI weren't like, something's off here.

• 1:47:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  It means they didn't find enough to actually press any charges, which could be because they were investigating a year and a half later and they were working with a pretty flawed and half-baked investigation to begin with.

• 1:47:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and that's the overall story of this case for me. We're going to talk about some theories and things like that, but... Number one thing for me, and I'm going to be looking at my notes. I apologize if you're watching on YouTube and I'm not looking at you, but the fact that no crime scene reconstruction was done, the fact that no subpoena for the Arlo Xfinity databases, their subscriptions, that wasn't done. Disclosing their opinions with witnesses during the interrogation slash interviews, you know, what they thought could have happened. They did not speak with the neighbors. Really, they didn't speak to the neighbors much beforehand or after the fact. It was kind of the GBI who did that. They did not secure the cell phones. They didn't take their phones and seize them right away to ensure the integrity of those phones from an evidentiary perspective to make sure that they didn't have time

• 1:48:10Derrick Levasseur?

  to go through and delete anything that could be incriminating in nature. There was no sexual assault kit done. A fingernail clippings weren't taken. They did not test the tequila bottle to maybe see if there was something in the bottle or maybe in Tomlin's cup that could come back to Xanax, you know, to see if there's some remnants of Xanax in one of those cups to rule out that possible theory. So overall, everything that I talk about from this point forward is going to be based on, as you said, a half-baked investigation. And the main, the main reason for that to me is because they went in there and concluded what had happened within the first 20 minutes of being there. This was a tragic accident involving someone who had too much to drink and we can talk about all the

• 1:48:52Derrick Levasseur?

  subtle underlayings of this, the unconscious bias, all that good stuff, but overall, regardless of what you want to deduce from their reasoning behind the investigation, it was a investigation and I do think them having a previous relationship with Jose contributed to that as well. Now, as far as the theories here, and again, this is going off the premise that we're on a faulty foundation with the investigation. There's not enough evidence to me to suggest that this was a homicide where Tomlin was killed by pushing her or throwing her over the railing or she was killed somewhere else and then thrown over the railing to make it look like an accident.

• 1:49:32Derrick Levasseur?

  To me, the most extreme circumstance you're looking at here is that Tamla was out on the balcony with another party, maybe multiple people. And as some have suggested, she was, you know, she was into it. She was partying, touchy feely, pushing on people a little bit, hugging on them, whatever. And as everybody's drinking, your patience runs thin and somebody may have gotten upset with her. Maybe pushed her off of them, or maybe there was an altercation. Maybe there was a physical fight between two people. And at some point, Tamla went over the railing. And then at that point, there would have been a collaborative effort to cover up what happened to avoid any criminal responsibility by anybody at that party. I think that is a strong possibility. I think that's something that would be high on my list. There's also a possibility

• 1:50:17Derrick Levasseur?

  that someone could have been out there alone with her. And maybe this was sexual in nature where everyone else goes to bed. And Jose, or I would assume it would have to be Jose, right, is out there with her. Makes, makes some advances toward her. She pushes back, maybe gets upset about it, says something like, I'm gonna go tell John what you did or whatever. And he pushes her over the railing. Now, I, I, I say that because yes, it's a possibility. There's nothing to support it. We talked about the, the tests that were done. It would be hard to prove that now. We would need a lot more for me to sit here and tell you that I think that's the most likely scenario. Out of the two I just suggested, I think the first one is more likely that you have a lot of people there drinking,

• 1:51:01Derrick Levasseur?

  using Xanax. Now, as far as something being put in Tamla's drink, I have nothing to rule that out either. But at minimum, I think Tamla was on Xanax and more than likely it was because Bridgette gave it to her. Even if she was aware of it, Bridgette gave it to her. Hey, listen, we're all doing it. You want some too? Here you go. I'm the life of the party. Have a little bit. It won't, it won't be too bad. And maybe add a, a more significant impact on Tamla because of her not being accustomed to what it would feel like to have the mixture of Xanax and alcohol. There's also a possibility. And I know a lot of people don't wanna. Don't want to accept this, but that it was an accident. And that although very unlikely based on all the things we talked about over the last three

• 1:51:42Derrick Levasseur?

  episodes, for some reason, Tamla did go out on the porch by herself to have one last cigarette for the night. And for whatever reason, she decided to lean up against the railing or stand up on the propane tank and because of her inebriation was a little bit unbalanced and fell over. I'm not as keen on that idea as I am on the fact that you had also mentioned that there was a railing missing on the stairs and there were multiple injuries to her body, multiple blunt force trauma injuries. Is it also possible that she fell backward down the stairs and sustained some significant injuries and was able to get to her feet for a matter of seconds before tripping over that metal landscaping trim and then expiring

• 1:52:26Derrick Levasseur?

  from her injuries right there? Maybe. Again, I'm not leaning in that camp, but I can't sit here and say it's not possible based on the limited information, the limited evidence that we do have. So that's kind of where I'm at on it. But I think as I look at everything in totality, based on the behaviors of the people who were there and the, I would say, lack of cooperation and also just the, the need to bring in outside parties and the GBI in order to obtain certain information that should have been disclosed initially, does show at least some level of consciousness of guilt and understanding that there were things done that night that contributed to the death of Tamla Horsford and they feel some responsibility for that. Why that is? I don't know. It could be as extreme as I

• 1:53:10Derrick Levasseur?

  said, as somebody literally pushed her over the railing during an altercation, or they were out there all horse playing, messing around. You know, you get somebody jumps on your back or whatever, you're stumbling around, you're playing and unfortunately they're on a balcony and Tamla goes over and they know that they were all in the wrong for doing it. Inebriated, on drugs, horsing around on the deck when you shouldn't be. They're not going to come out and say that. Tamla's already gone. Why, why incriminate, why ruin everybody's life? That might be their thought process. The reality is if that's what happened, they should have just come out and said it right away. It would have made much more sense based on what we do have here. And although there may have been some, it may have been some liability on their part. I don't think they would have

• 1:53:55Derrick Levasseur?

  went to prison for the rest of their lives, but apparently nobody wanted to take accountability. But I leave this investigation. Understanding why people are so caught up in it because it doesn't appear to be as straightforward as the original investigators thought it was, or at least pretended that it was. And I'm glad to see that they're no longer investigators because they did a horrible job with this case. And that's why you and I are sitting here covering it because they didn't do their job initially.

• 1:54:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  I want to be very clear, I'm not saying this was a homicide. But I'm saying that if the official ruling is that this was an accident, then there should be a clear explanation of what that accident looked like. Not just Mike Christian sitting in an interview with people being like, yeah, we have no idea how it happened either. It's just the best we could come up with, with the investigation we didn't do. People don't just accidentally fall off balconies without a sequence of events leading up to it. Was she sitting on the railing? If that's the case, then show me evidence of that. Show me dust being disrupted on the railing in the place where she would have been sitting that kind of fits the width of her body. Did she lose her balance?

• 1:55:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Was she standing on the propane tank? Or was it wiped off and moved because they were trying to get the fire started? What exactly happened in those final moments? Why did the door open as if she was going out for a cigarette? And then close like you would if you were going out to smoke a cigarette? You don't want the smoke getting inside. But why did the door open again as if she went back inside? But then the door didn't close again? Why would you smoke a cigarette, open the door to go back inside and then go and sit on the balcony railing? Or stand on the propane tank? That doesn't make any sense. So right now it feels like we're given a conclusion without a theory or without like an actual mechanism of how it happened. And for me, that's where the disconnect is.

• 1:55:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  And if they were investigating this as a murder and they had to go to trial and support this, they would have to say, oh, this is what happened, you know? Like they did in the John O'Keefe case when they brought in accident reconstructionists and each side was trying to show how they were going to prove that it was either an accident or intentional or it didn't happen at all. Show me the mechanism of how this happened. What did she do to get to a place where she was able to accidentally fall off? And some people were like, well, maybe she was sitting on the balcony facing inwards, facing the door to go inside. The crime scene doesn't support that. She fell face forward. It doesn't, it wouldn't make sense how that would happen, especially if she fell with her

• 1:56:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  feet so close to that landscape divider. Maybe you could say she fell off backwards and she flipped, but then you wouldn't really see her going straight down in that way if she flipped. It doesn't make any sense. So that's what I think is making this so difficult to process. Accident sounds simple, but when you really think about it and you're trying to figure out how you get from point A to point B, it's not simple. It doesn't make sense and they can't explain that. And I think that the whole factor of Mike Christian sitting in the interviews with people and all the people being like, "How did this happen? Like, we've been on that balcony before. It feels like it would be pretty hard to just accidentally fall off it." He's like, "Yeah, I agree. Big mystery. That's what the investigation's for, dude. That's what the investigation's for."

• 1:57:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  There's also reports that there was a piece of jambalaya in the yard near her that was like an evidence marker and they decided it was a piece of jambalaya, which is what she was eating, right? When Bridget left, apparently she was still eating her bowl of jambalaya. Did she have the food out there with her? Was it in her mouth when she fell and it popped out? Like, what's going on here? None of this makes sense. So you have all these factors and it feels like the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office, they sort of like grabbed a bunch of pieces of the puzzle and then like put them on the table and just were like, "What do we need to put this puzzle together for? What do we need to see if there's missing pieces? What do we really need to see the full picture?

• 1:58:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because gathering all these pieces, it shows us it's a puzzle and that's all we need to know. It's a mystery how this could have happened. We really can't explain it either." I don't like that. That's the part I don't like and that's the part I'm having a hard time like moving on. If you could tell me any potential plausible theory of how Tamla, alone on that balcony, fell off face forward, then I would be able to possibly follow you down that path. But they are not able to do that. And it's clear from those interviews that they had no idea either. So they can even come out now and be like, yeah, this is how it could have happened. You didn't know in the weeks and the months after this happened and you were saying it was an accident. You didn't know how it could have been an accident.

• 1:58:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  And and then you still didn't do a thorough investigation, even though you were saying it was an accident. And maybe you wanted it to be an accident. But you couldn't say how it was an accident. And I feel like in that case, if you don't know as a police officer, if you don't know exactly how something happened. That's when you want to kind of do a deeper investigation, but that didn't happen.

• 1:59:04Derrick Levasseur?

  You know, the thing about the falling backwards off the railing. I can see that being the case because my natural instinct, if I'm sitting up on a railing facing the house. Once I go backwards, my natural instinct is going to be to like grab the railing to try to like. Brace my fall to try to stop me from going over. And if I'm only able to grab on to the railing with one arm. The natural physics of my body will be to go backwards, but then maybe sideways and then bounce off that railing. And fall headfirst. But here's what I do believe. Regardless of what happened, whether this was some type of just. You know, roughhousing or a tragic accident where she fell off the railing because she lost her balance. I strongly believe that somebody else was present for it. There were other people who were there when this occurred and they know exactly what happened.

• 1:59:50Derrick Levasseur?

  And yet they haven't come out and said that not only for Tamla, but for the rest of her family. That's a problem for me. Because there's no doubt. In my mind, at least that someone else knows exactly what occurred that night. And for whatever reason, whether it's because they're directly involved with what happened and they're protecting themselves. Or because they fear there's going to be some level of accountability that then are willing to accept. They haven't come forward and they got lucky because. The investigators helped them out. And did a completely terrible job with this case, just unprofessional and everything that you're not supposed to do. When you show up on a scene like this and you have someone who's deceased. So it's unfortunate. And I think where we sit right now, unless. Someone from that house comes forward and says what happened. We may never know.

• 2:00:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  I agree. And I think it'll be one of those cases that it's not something we can figure out once again. Because of how the initial investigation.

• 2:00:42Derrick Levasseur?

  It's everything.

• 2:00:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  So I guess, how do we prevent that from happening? Because at this point. Not, not in this case, maybe. I'm not saying there's not, there is, but what if there is something more nefarious happening and then the police can just like act like they're just bumbling idiots who, who didn't do a proper investigation and like, oh, who, who us? Like, we just, we're just bad at our jobs. We're not like nefarious.

• 2:01:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Not to make this about you and I, or everybody who, who tunes in every week. I think we have a role. I think we have a significant role. I, it's part of the reason that I'm so willing to do this with you every single week is because we have a responsibility to, especially myself, to police the police. And you talked about the forensic pathologist coming forward and speaking after they heard a podcast, right? Like, we have an influence, we have an impact as a community, not just the podcasters. So, we can hold people accountable after the fact where you see people out there losing their jobs because of their incompetence. And it serves as a lesson for everybody else out there who may be acting under the same principles, and also as a deterrent,

• 2:01:47Derrick Levasseur?

  so that when you go to your next crime scene, because don't think for a second that there aren't crime scene technicians and detectives who listen to these shows, who are seeing the mistakes being made, and going to these crime scenes in the future and saying, you know what? It's probably this, but just to cover my bases, because I don't want to be on the next episode of a podcast, I'm gonna make sure that I do my due diligence and I'm gonna work as a defense attorney here and make sure I dot all my i's and cross all my t's so that after the fact, I don't have some frickin' YouTuber questioning my work. And if, you know what, if that's the only reason they do it, so be it. At least they did it. But we have to have officers go in there and start treating crime scenes as if they have been altered or cleaned up before you arrived.

• 2:02:32Derrick Levasseur?

  Even though that's more than likely not going to be the case, if you treat it that way, you're less likely to miss signs that, that is what happened. And, you know, complacency. And we also talked about it, just to wrap it up, a, a potential unconscious bias toward the victim where they show up and see a black woman laying on the ground with all these white people and decide, you know what? These are good people. These are good people. They wouldn't do anything bad to this woman. She clearly was out of control. Slam dunk, shut, accident, let's move on.

• 2:03:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I agree. It's, it's, it's really, really concerning. And I'm just worried that this sets a precedent where, like I said, police stations, sheriff's offices, they can be like, well, if we just make a really bad investigation, then like, yeah, we'll be looked sideways at, but.

• 2:03:15Derrick Levasseur?

  Look what's happened to these guys. A lot of their lives are ruined. And justifiably so, they, this woman's life was not treated at the level of respect that it should have been. And now you have detectives doing these podcasts or these interviews, looking like morons because they didn't do their job. And I have no sympathy for them. As a former cop, you can go, because anytime we have to cover a case like this, from where I'm sitting, it makes my job that much harder because every time we have any question of cover up or anything, what argument do I have where we have living, breathing examples of it? Or at minimum incompetence. And so you can always push back on me and go, yeah, but Derek, what about Tom LaHorsford? And I gotta go, yeah, you're right.

• 2:03:56Derrick Levasseur?

  So I have no use for these people. Um, there's a lot of cops out there. Not all of them are good. And when we identify them, we gotta call it out for what it is.

• 2:04:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  I agree. Well, let us know what you think in the comments. I mean, as we kind of stated, it's, it's frustrating because Tom's family and Ralph Fernandez, they're like, we're not gonna stop, but how far can they take this? When there's nothing left to, to pull from, there's nobody, I mean, they could go to the FBI, but they're gonna run into a similar issue. There's just not going to be enough to prosecute anybody or to bring charges against anybody.

• 2:04:32Derrick Levasseur?

  The only shot we have, and it's a glimmer, is whenever there's a collaborative effort, right? There's a group of people who decide on a story and are gonna stick to it. There's a hierarchy there, right? Like, there's always people who are more culpable, right? And then there's some lesser people who may have been present, but didn't actually contribute in any way, shape or form. You have to hope that there's a crack in that armor. Something happens over the years, or there's a change of mindset where the person who doesn't have as much to lose and maybe wasn't as involved, finally decides to come forward for whatever reason.

• 2:05:10Derrick Levasseur?

  And that's, that's why continuing to talk about these cases is important because it, it continues to apply public pressure, not only on the people in charge of the case, but also the people involved. And that's why we do what we do.

• 2:05:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Is there a glimmer of hope that anybody actually?

• 2:05:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Not likely.

• 2:05:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  No.

• 2:05:26Derrick Levasseur?

  But there's still hope.

• 2:05:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  No. Because I really believe, I don't believe everybody in that house or everybody at that party knows something. I think a lot of them are genuinely just like,

• 2:05:35Derrick Levasseur?

  I agree with you.

• 2:05:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  We don't know, we were sleeping. I think if anybody knows anything, it's one, two people tops. That's the only way you can keep something like this under wraps.

• 2:05:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep. If more than one person knows it's no longer a secret. We have to hope that there's, there's something that transpired, a communication, a conversation, uh, cause they were hanging out a lot at that house after it happened and maybe somebody got caught wind of something.

• 2:05:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or it was, we're hanging out at that house a lot because we are trying to now tell you what you saw that night. And we're trying to tell you what happened that night so that when you do talk to the police, you remember it this way.

• 2:06:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Same story.

• 2:06:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly.

• 2:06:11Derrick Levasseur?

  Either way, not to be Debbie Downer, but it is going to be hard to charge someone at this point because there's, the, the water is so muddied. To bring charges and have them stick, if that were the direction this was gonna go, that is less likely than finding out the truth. So, we'll see what happens. Well, we're gonna be back next week with a new case. Obviously, guys, we appreciate you being here. We've done, I'm looking at the clock on this one, we're two and a half hours of, of just raw recording on this. So, probably be shorter than that when we do the edited episode. But overall, this was a, a great series. We appreciate the, the engagement from you guys as far as being in the comment section, talking about the case. A lot of you are very passionate about it. A lot of you were talking about the daylight savings thing and not to go back

• 2:06:56Derrick Levasseur?

  to the case, but although that is significant as far as the remembering of timestamps, we don't think it's as important considering the fact that Tamla would have been dead or whatever happened to her happened to her before 2:00 AM when daylight savings time would have taken effect. But that's why we love the comment section.

• 2:07:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  And we also know that the documented evidence, like the doors opening and closing stuff, that's all, that was all up to the regular time. And they showed the door opening when Bridgette said she was leaving.

• 2:07:20Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes.

• 2:07:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  So that really doesn't matter.

• 2:07:22Derrick Levasseur?

  And time of death. They're going off of the condition of the body, rigor mortis, things like that. They're not saying, oh, it, you know, it happened at 1:30. So she's been dead for seven hours. So they're able to tell based on the biology, not necessarily the amount of time that's trend that's gone by. So, but all of these conversations that are happening in the comment section, that's what gives us more motivation to go deeper on the case the next episode, because we can see how invested you guys are. So we'll be back with a new case next week. Please continue to like, comment, subscribe, hype up the video. If you're on audio and you haven't already, we would really, really appreciate it if you leave a rating and review. Last time I checked, we are like 40 reviews away from

• 2:08:04Derrick Levasseur?

  breaking 10,000 reviews on Apple Podcasts. We've already broken it on Spotify. The competitor in me wants to break it on, on Apple Podcasts as well. So if you could help me do that, that would be greatly appreciated. I'd love to get there. Stephanie really doesn't look at that stuff, but I'm, I'm in there.

• 2:08:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  He is.

• 2:08:20Derrick Levasseur?

  As always, guys, we appreciate you being here. Everyone stay safe out there. We'll see you next week.

• 2:08:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Bye.