IMO Presents: The Look Live with Wesley Morris

On this episode of The Look, Michelle is joined by journalist Wesley Morris for a live conversation at Sixth & I in Washington DC. Michelle talks about what the East Wing meant to her during her time in the White House, the daring dress choice she opted for at the end of the second term, and Wesley shares a surprising story Oprah shared with him about Michelle. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Michelle Obama?

  She sends a box of then Ralph Lauren's first edition clothing line. It was like three suits, seven sweats. I mean, it was an Oprah-sized gift. And this shows up at my door in this big locker trunk. I said, "Thank you." And I'm sitting there like with all these clothes, feeling like I've been Oprah'd. It's just like, "Wow, you get a car, and you get a car, and there's sweaters coming out, and it's all this great stuff, every color." It's like, "My God, this woman is rich."

• 0:37Michelle Obama?

  But because my husband, who is my husband, he's like, "We can't keep that." It's like, "What?" He's like, "I'm in office, we don't accept gifts." Imagine that.

• 1:08Michelle Obama?

  This episode is brought to you by Rivian and Colaguard.

• 1:13Speaker 01

  Hi. Woo.

• 1:18Speaker 01

  That is a very religious hi.

• 1:24Speaker 01

  I mean, you know, it can be church anywhere. Okay, so I'm gonna bring Mrs. Obama out, but I just wanted to say something before we started, just about this book. It's very short. I'm gonna look at my phone to do it. First of all, I put this, I have a baking scale, a kitchen scale.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  Just for kicks last night, I just put it on the scale.

• 1:55Speaker 01

  4.12? That is, that's a heavy book.

• 2:02Speaker 01

  And I just want to talk about the meaning of a book being this heavy.

• 2:10Speaker 01

  Because, I mean,

• 2:14Speaker 01

  this book has proved that something happened.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  Something unprecedented and extraordinary for millions of people. Like, we're all here because we know that something extraordinary happened. And it expanded people's lives, it changed people's lives, it changed the way people look at the world, what they think is possible. And this book, this 4.1-pound book, I mean, it's documentation that all of that actually happened. And the reason to say that is because we live in a moment where people are going to try to say that it didn't.

• 2:56Speaker 01

  And it did. And this book is documentation of that. So with that,

• 3:07Speaker 01

  give it up for Michelle Obama!

• 3:47Michelle Obama?

  Hi, everybody!

• 3:50Michelle Obama?

  Woo! That was a catwalk.

• 3:55Michelle Obama?

  I was just like, "Just don't trip, don't fall."

• 3:58Speaker 01

  Have you ever tripped?

• 3:59Michelle Obama?

  You know, Wesley, that, people wonder, "Well, what were you thinking here? What were you thinking there?" I was like, "Don't trip, don't fall, don't fall down these stairs of Air Force One." No, I never tripped because that was all I was thinking about. Whether it was stairs, or a long walk, or heels, it was just like, just one foot at a time, don't become a meme.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  Now, you've got other memes.

• 4:23Michelle Obama?

  I do, I do, but I didn't want falling to be one of them.

• 4:26Speaker 01

  Those are good ones. Those are the ones you want.

• 4:29Michelle Obama?

  Thank you, thank you, you guys, Wesley Morse. Man.

• 4:35Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 4:35Michelle Obama?

  I specifically asked for this brother to do this because you are one of the smartest, most diverse-thinking, broad-minded men that I know. And I am, I'm always impressed.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  I really appreciate that, thank you. Um, let's see how true that is by the time this is...

• 4:59Michelle Obama?

  Okay, all right. Bar is high, bar is high now.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  Um, all right, so I, I feel like where I wanna start.

• 5:05Michelle Obama?

  Okay.

• 5:05Speaker 01

  First of all, how you doing?

• 5:07Michelle Obama?

  I'm good, I'm good.

• 5:08Speaker 01

  Let's start there.

• 5:08Michelle Obama?

  I'm, I'm home? It's like, everybody's here, it's like, half the people in the audience, I know y'all.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  And half the other half I know, because my sister drove them up there, right? There they are.

• 5:23Michelle Obama?

  Wesley brought like, a busload of people. Hey, y'all.

• 5:27Speaker 01

  My sister Robin did it.

• 5:28Michelle Obama?

  Okay, okay, Robin.

• 5:30Speaker 01

  And I'm glad, I'm glad they did, uh...

• 5:32Michelle Obama?

  I'm glad they did too.

• 5:34Speaker 01

  Glad they came.

• 5:34Michelle Obama?

  But I feel, I feel good, I'm, I'm feeling good, glad to be home.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  The last one?

• 5:39Michelle Obama?

  This is the last live event, I'll do a little more press in LA in December, and then, y'all, that's it. So, um...

• 5:46Speaker 01

  Well, um, I think the second, sort of like, small talky question I have to ask is people want to know, "What are you wearing?"

• 5:56Michelle Obama?

  Well, Wesley knows that I forgot to check before I put this dress on, so we were the back...

• 6:01Speaker 01

  Class act. Doesn't even look at the labels.

• 6:02Michelle Obama?

  I didn't look. I didn't... I knew what I was gonna wear, but I don't remember sometimes. And Meredith couldn't be here because she wasn't feeling well. So this is vintage Zac Posen. Oh, yeah, yeah. And I was gonna wear something else, and then you said you were wearing a suit and a tie. And I was like, "Ooh, okay."

• 6:22Speaker 01

  Wait a minute, hold on.

• 6:23Michelle Obama?

  He said a mint suit.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  What happened was...

• 6:25Michelle Obama?

  Well, what happened?

• 6:28Speaker 01

  I got a text from somebody...

• 6:30Michelle Obama?

  Uh-huh.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  Asking, "What are you wearing tonight?" And it was not from my sister, who also wanted to know what I was gonna wear.

• 6:39Michelle Obama?

  Wanted to know. It was like, "Don't embarrass us."

• 6:40Speaker 01

  And I'm like, "Okay." But there was no, like, there were no caveats.

• 6:44Michelle Obama?

  No, there was no dress code.

• 6:45Speaker 01

  And then Julia wrote back and was like, "Everybody just wants to make sure you guys aren't clashing."

• 6:49Michelle Obama?

  That's right.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  What would clashing look like under these circumstances? Because I wore...

• 6:53Michelle Obama?

  You know, if you were gonna come out in a tux, or if you were coming out in jeans, because there was no dress code. So I try to keep in mind, like, I don't want to come out in a ball gown and you're in jeans, right?

• 7:05Speaker 01

  She almost wore a tux.

• 7:06Michelle Obama?

  Well, then I would've worn something else.

• 7:08Speaker 01

  I... I had a long conversation with Robin about whether I should wear the tux. And I just decided I just wanted to be comfortable.

• 7:16Michelle Obama?

  And you are, and you look good.

• 7:18Speaker 01

  Also, I didn't want to be triggering to you. Like, you look at people in tuxes all the time.

• 7:22Michelle Obama?

  Oh, you think... Not anymore, though.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  Bring the pistachio!

• 7:25Michelle Obama?

  It's been eight years. Barack's tux is tucked away.

• 7:31Michelle Obama?

  The one tux. Oh, you are, by the way. He got another tux, finally.

• 7:36Speaker 01

  Like, he has two, or he replaced the old one?

• 7:38Michelle Obama?

  Uh, he probably replaced the old one.

• 7:42Speaker 01

  So the old one's going to, I mean, while we have a Smithsonian...

• 7:46Michelle Obama?

  It's going to the real, real... Yeah, we have a, we have a whole museum where stuff can go.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  I mean...

• 7:52Michelle Obama?

  And I'm sure that's the only thing that's gonna be there. The, uh, Obama Presidential Center opens in June, you all. That's another... And there will be a big celebration, but as part of the exhibit, the archives of many of my dresses will be there. And I keep telling Brock, that's what people are coming for. They're coming for the dresses. So there are going to be many of them up. And then he'll probably have that tan suit. And that'll be, that'll be his contribution.

• 8:22Speaker 01

  So y'all laugh at that tan suit. That was meaningful to me. I mean, we can come back to this because I would like to talk about his experience in clothes as far as you're concerned.

• 8:34Michelle Obama?

  There were no experiences. That's a short answer. He's just now getting his fashion edge together. He's trying to keep up, but he's the kind of, he's the kind of guy that has a pair of khaki pants from The Gap, and he just goes and replaces that pair of khaki pants.

• 8:53Speaker 01

  He's a man.

• 8:54Michelle Obama?

  The girls and I, we are shocked when he has on a color. And we try to encourage him. It's like, oh, it's purple, it's lavender. Oh, Dad, you look great. I mean, it's black, blue, tan, gray. That's his story. He could not write a book.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  But I guess, I'm not even going to read between the lines of like, he can't write a book. But what I will ask, I mean, we're kind of like, we're just, we're just having a conversation now. So, I'm just wondering, like, what do you think his experience was like? You know, in terms of his sartorial choices? And did you have a preference? Were you, like, did you ever hope you'd come out of the room? Because one of the most beautiful descriptions in the book is, what was going on on one side of, of a door? And what was anticipating what was going to come out or through those doors on the other side?

• 9:54Speaker 01

  So he's waiting for you, event after event, to emerge in the clothes that we all see, that this book is full of. Did you ever hope you'd open the door and see something different?

• 10:10Michelle Obama?

  I knew I wasn't. I knew I wasn't going to. I mean, that's just not, you know, Barack, that's not a part of who he is. He is not a fashion person. And he looks good and everything. I mean, he's tall, he's handsome. You know, so he's got a blue suit, a gray suit, a white tie, a white shirt, a blue shirt, maybe a stripe. I mean, it's like a handful of things. And I knew what they were gonna be. So, I mean, I just truthfully, no. I was like, he's like the steady, you know, he's there. And I'm always the flower. It's like, you know, I'm in a dress, I'm in colors, I'm in,

• 10:55Michelle Obama?

  you know, I'm in short sleeves and pants and, you know. And that's kind of like how the West Wing, East Wing felt. It felt like the East Wing was where there was color and light and joy. We had apples and children and puppies and there was laughter. And I don't know if we have any Obama folks here, any West Wingers. I know we've got some East Wingers over there. And you know when the West Wing would come, the State Department, they would come for briefings if we were doing something. They always felt a little lighter. They were like, wow. You know, my office was, had a pink hue, it had pretty colors in it, we always had flowers. Then you go to the West Wing and it was war, death.

• 11:40Michelle Obama?

  Horrible things, Congress.

• 11:45Speaker 01

  Okay, we're done.

• 11:50Michelle Obama?

  And so, that was sort of our sartorial. He was, he was serious and we were joyful.

• 12:00Speaker 01

  I mean, well, we're here now. So, I mean, you have invoked that part of the White House. Everything you're describing is light and flowers and joy and welcome is rubble.

• 12:15Speaker 01

  And I'm wondering how it feels, I'm wondering a few things about the east wing aspect of your time in the White House. Because that was where you worked.

• 12:26Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 12:27Speaker 01

  You did a lot of your work there. Um, you welcomed people there. Uh, music got, events happened here?

• 12:37Michelle Obama?

  Social office was there, the volunteer office was there, the place that welcomed visitors. Because we did have a lot of visitors. I mean, that was one of the things we wanted to do in the White House, was open it up. You know, our view was, this is not our house. We are here to do a job, we're here for a term, we're here for a moment. We are caretakers of this history. And it's about bringing more people in. I mean, I always, I was always the kid, growing up on the south side of Chicago, that didn't feel welcome in some of these fancy places. You go to the big store downtown, and if, you know, all of a sudden, somebody's following you.

• 13:18Michelle Obama?

  Or you go into the museum, and people think that you don't belong. When Barack and I were there, we were thinking about those kids like us, who were outside of the gates of the South Lawn, looking in, or maybe not even getting down to Pennsylvania Avenue, not knowing what it meant to be in the White House, not knowing what a state dinner was, not knowing what those rooms looked like, because a lot of those kids didn't feel invited in. But those were the people who got us there. So, our goal was to make that house as open as possible. And the east wing, that was the place where that work got done.

• 13:59Michelle Obama?

  Along with all the work that I did on the initiatives, I had five initiatives throughout the eight years. And that work got done in that, in the east wing. That's where the first lady's staff is, was located. So, yeah. But, every president has the right to do what they want in that house. So that's why we gotta be clear on who we let in.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  Okay, um, I'm gonna change the subject back to the book.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  Because I really wanna talk about the title.

• 14:44Michelle Obama?

  Of the book?

• 14:44Speaker 01

  Yes. Because the title to me is deep. Like, you could've called this Armor. Uniforms. But you called it The Look. And, um, the things that come up when I hear this title are... I mean, there are a lot of things, like, who's looking? Which look?

• 15:10Speaker 01

  Who were you aware of looking at you? Which look suited which... I mean, there's a lot of...

• 15:19Michelle Obama?

  It says a lot.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  Talk to me about the title.

• 15:21Michelle Obama?

  Well, that I have to give a lot of credit to. And I wanna take a moment just to shout out Penguin Random House, my publishers, my longtime publishers. And I know you guys are here.

• 15:35Michelle Obama?

  You know, there's always the point when, in these books, where it comes time to, what are we gonna call this?

• 15:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:41Michelle Obama?

  Right? And, like so much of what I do, it's a collaborative effort. And, I think, you know, the title is so good that when... And I don't know who threw it out, but once it was out there, everybody said, "That's it. That's it. It says it all." Every word. And even the picture on the cover was gonna be a different picture because we wanted to have a cover picture that nobody had seen before. And then, I don't know whether it was Chuck or which White House photographer. I think it was Chuck that took this... Who was it? Chuck! It was Chuck.

• 16:23Michelle Obama?

  This was the photo shoot from my official White House portrait. So, no one had ever seen this. But I forgot about this shot, and then he showed it to the team. And that look, that sort of... Like, we start the book with, this is kind of where it began. But this book takes us on a complete arc. So this is like, this is the beginning and then there's more. But I think the look, it just, the title itself just speaks for itself. And when you talk to the publishers, they always want one word, one word for a title. Right?

• 16:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's where we are now.

• 17:00Michelle Obama?

  The Look Becoming, just one, what we want. I see David over there. So it was a team effort, but when, you know, when, when those words hit the Zoom meeting, we all agreed that was it. And it's about all of it.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 17:16Michelle Obama?

  Yes, this book is about being looked at, what you're, how you look and what you look. It's how you want to be perceived. It's all of that. So while it's a book full of beautiful pictures and it's a wonderful coffee table book, I urge people to read the essays, the foreword by Farah Griffin.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  That is an excellent foreword.

• 17:36Michelle Obama?

  It is an excellent foreword. That was something that I knew when we started talking about the book. I knew that I wanted Farah, who is a historian, sociologist, brilliant woman, dear friend, just to set the tone for why even talk about fashion. Because it's not about fashion. It's about culture. It's about race. It's about a woman's journey. It's about my journey. Farah helps to provide a wonderful context to the essays that follow. So it's, there's a lot in there.

• 18:18Craig Robinson?

  This segment is brought to you by Cologuard, a colon cancer screening test that doesn't have any special prep. And Meech, have you ever put off health needs for yourself?

• 18:33Michelle Obama?

  No, I can, I can say that particularly now in my life, it is baked into my schedule. And I probably did that because we grew up with a father that put off health. And our dad, as many people know, had MS. And he didn't. He wasn't always diligent about making sure he got his doctor's appointments and you had to push him. And I think that sometimes that's the challenge with men, especially men in our communities. I know a lot of young men who are very hesitant when thinking about a colonoscopy. They don't know what it is. It's a scary proposition. There's

• 19:14Michelle Obama?

  just something about the process that doesn't feel right for them. And often they're putting it off. And I find myself making sure that the men in my life are not doing that.

• 19:27Craig Robinson?

  Well, you know, Mish, I got a chance to visit the Cologuard lab in Madison, Wisconsin. And boy, was it impressive. It is tech-enabled, automated, and state-of-the-art, leading to accurate and consistent results. Seeing their team in action showed me how committed they are to catching colon cancer early. And they do all of this because they are currently about 60 million people putting off their colon cancer screening, to your point. Many African-Americans are part of a group putting off colonoscopies and have a higher rate of colorectal cancer, and also, unfortunately, a higher rate of dying from

• 20:11Craig Robinson?

  it. But what was amazing is the work the Cologuard team is doing. It's an innovative company with a mission to eradicate cancer. I found it really impressive that the Cologuard test has been used to screen for colon cancer more than 20 million times. It's a no-prep, that's right, no-prep, colon cancer screening test that is delivered to your door.

• 20:37Michelle Obama?

  No excuses.

• 20:39Craig Robinson?

  After seeing the lab firsthand, I really want to encourage anyone 45 or older, at average risk, to talk to their healthcare provider about getting screened with Cologuard. You can even request a prescription online at Cologuard.com. Don't wait. Taking control of your health is something you can do today.

• 21:08Speaker 01

  Let's talk about, let's look at what's in there. I, we've got a deck of images from the book.

• 21:16Speaker 01

  And I just sort of want to hear you think through some of the, I mean, you know, you all will leave here with this book, you're going to see them, but like, I would like to do some close reading on some of these, some of these pictures.

• 21:29Michelle Obama?

  You know, this is little Michelle Robinson at Bryn Mawr High, or Elementary School. I, that must have been first grade, maybe third grade, it was probably first grade.

• 21:47Michelle Obama?

  And that was probably gym day, because that's a sweatshirt.

• 21:52Michelle Obama?

  And I think my mom was still doing my hair, so that was one of those quick, you do the ponytails and put them up. But that was the typical going to public school. I didn't have much control over my look, because I had no money. I had no resources. This was a child that, you know, and, and I was a, still a bit of a tomboy then, because I had an older brother and I was surrounded by boys. I was athletic, I loved to keep up, I boxed with my male cousins, I played catch, anything my brother was doing, I was doing. So I wanted to be, if I, if I had to describe my fashion desire,

• 22:33Michelle Obama?

  I wanted to be Jose Cardenal, who was the first baseman on the Chicago Cubs. And I would pick my braids out into a big fro, because he wore his Chicago Cubs cap with his butt, and when I wasn't at school, that's how I wanted my hair. I wanted to be Jose Cardenal, of the Cubs, first baseman.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  And you write a lot, next, can we have the next set of images? Or this is the next, okay.

• 22:57Michelle Obama?

  And then I grew up.

• 23:01Speaker 01

  So before we talk about this phase of your life, I want to actually go back and think a little bit about how you, as a young person, were thinking about what to wear.

• 23:15Michelle Obama?

  You know, there was a lot of dreaming and wishing.

• 23:19Speaker 01

  Of who and of what?

• 23:21Michelle Obama?

  It just, you know, when you're young, you just want to do what the cool kids do. You want to look like the pretty girls on Soul Train. But your parents are broke and your mother sews your clothes and you're mad about it. Because you don't appreciate the value of a well-made pair of pants. Because all you want are the Gloria Vanderbilt jeans with the swan on them. So there's a lot of wanting when you grow up poor, you know? Because, and maybe that's a good thing, because there's a period of you don't get what you want. It wasn't an expectation. There was no fashion, it was practicality. I write about the fact that I used to watch Laugh-In.

• 24:06Michelle Obama?

  You know, young people.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  I mean, Laugh-In.

• 24:09Michelle Obama?

  Laugh-In is a comedy series.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  Great 60's sketch show.

• 24:13Michelle Obama?

  It's a comedy.

• 24:13Speaker 01

  Ron and Martin's Laugh-In.

• 24:15Michelle Obama?

  It was one of the first sketch comedy shows.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  Aide Goldie Hawn's name.

• 24:20Michelle Obama?

  Goldie Hawn, remember her? She's like 90 now, but she was young.

• 24:23Speaker 01

  Remember her, Michelle!

• 24:24Michelle Obama?

  I'm talking to the young people. They don't know what we're talking about. But she used to dance in short mini dresses and these patent leather go-go boots. And I wanted a pair of white patent leather go-go boots. I lived in Chicago, it was snow, you know? My mom would look, listen, laugh, and then she'd pick up those rubber boots that you'd put over your shoe. You'd need to put a plastic bag over your shoe. Galoshes, but they came all the way up. Yes, I know, it was so sad.

• 25:00Michelle Obama?

  But, you know, I had no choice. So I think I was probably dreaming of a time when I could ditch my mother's ways and go out on my own.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  She was your first stylist, really?

• 25:11Michelle Obama?

  Oh, yeah, my mother was not a style icon. She was a practical woman. I love my mother, and she was very crafty. She sewed everything. She sewed our drapes. She made cushion covers. I mean, I don't, you know, my mom didn't work until I went to high school. But she, she got stuff done. I mean, you'd come home and the whole house would be remade. It's like, what are you doing? You know, my mom didn't shop for herself. She was one of those typical mothers. She put all of her energy into us. So she wasn't somebody that I looked to. She rarely dressed up. She wouldn't go to the hairdresser until we all made her. So, no, my mother was not my fashion role model.

• 25:55Michelle Obama?

  So I think as a young person, I didn't know what nice stuff looked like, you know? But it was something out there to be had.

• 26:07Speaker 01

  There are a few, I've seen a few pictures, and there's definitely at least one in the book, of you at Princeton at some point. Farrah, like, almost really beautifully close reads this.

• 26:19Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  In her foreword. And it's you with your hair braids, and you've got a denim jacket on. And the jacket is buttoned or fastened at the bottom. It's the only fasten.

• 26:36Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 26:37Speaker 01

  That is-

• 26:38Michelle Obama?

  It created a waist.

• 26:39Speaker 01

  That, I was gonna say, that is style.

• 26:41Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 26:42Speaker 01

  That is style operating.

• 26:45Michelle Obama?

  I knew it was out there. I knew what it could be, right? But you don't, you know, you don't get to actualize it until you get to graduate, get a degree, get a job, pay your loans off, and then maybe you can explore fashion. So it wasn't until I was, even when I was practicing law, you know, it was the 80s, 90s business suits, ladies. You know those horrible suits with the big shoulder pads? It was the uniform, and you'd get a red one, or maybe a blue one, and maybe a tweed jacket and a black. It was very sad. Sad lawyer, corporate clothes with- Nylons, which I hated nylons. It was the, "That's a man invented nylons."

• 27:31Michelle Obama?

  I mean, those things, it's just cruel and expensive and they run all the time. So, even when I had resources, I lived in a uniform of work. You know, there weren't casual Fridays. Everybody had to wear suit all the time. So, it probably wasn't until I became a public figure that I not only had the resources, but the necessity to really think about how I had to show up. And I had some flexibility. But until then, I was, I was just getting through the day.

• 28:10Michelle Obama?

  You know, I write about what it was like to even think about shopping for a suit for Barack's big convention speech. I mean, I was a typical mother. We were running around, I had a job, I had little kids, and it was like, "Oh, my God, he's speaking at this convention thing." I need, and I'm finding out-

• 28:26Speaker 01

  It's an amazing part of this book, because I'll just, can I, I'll interrupt to just say one thing that's extraordinary about this book, that we, I, I can't, I've not read every first lady's memoir, but I did do some digging around before we hooked up. And just the facades of how things were maintained, you know, Barbara Bush is maybe the only person I could find who was really sort of piercing the, the sort of glamour bubble a little bit about like what it, like what, well, you quote her in the book, actually, about what she will not be doing.

• 29:06Speaker 01

  But I also feel like it's important to think about the, the honesty of this thing, right? The things you were letting people see in terms of- You know, smoke and mirrors.

• 29:20Michelle Obama?

  Mm-hmm, yeah, the process of it all, right?

• 29:22Speaker 01

  In terms of the stresses and the uncertainties.

• 29:26Michelle Obama?

  Well, my whole thing is always like, like if I'm gonna connect with people, the whole point is like, if you're gonna help people, especially young people, they have to see you. They can't see some facade. They can't think that it's all magic, because then they don't think they can do it. So why I am so brutally honest about all the things, it's like, yeah, you know, this is, it looks good, but it's, you know, swans and paddling under the water. I just want, I think my honesty is directed at young people who covet and look and want to be, and I want people to know what it all is. Let's talk about it

• 30:03Michelle Obama?

  all. And so, dressing for me was like that. I was a typical working mother with a busy husband who was in politics and traveled a lot. So, I heard that I had to walk onstage with him after his speech, and it was like, oh my God, I can't just wear one of these horrible suits, you know? I gotta, I gotta think of something. So it's a mad dash to Bloomingdale's. Why Bloomingdale's? Because you could park there and get your parking validated. I mean, that's how you think, you know? It's like, I'm going where they validate. And so, you know, that's how I dressed. It's like, oh my God, I gotta run

• 30:46Michelle Obama?

  and do this. And then I've gotta dress two little girls. So there's also a cute little girls' dress place in Bloomingdale's. I was like, I can hit that, get two little outfits, suit for mom, and back in the car in time for the next meeting. That's, that was the life.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  So you were doing this on your lunch break?

• 31:05Michelle Obama?

  Yes, in between, you know, soccer and ballet and the eighth birthday party of the weekend.

• 31:12Speaker 01

  Well, during this period, though, I kinda wanna talk about what I would describe as like, your through the looking glass moment with respect to, like, how you were gonna present yourself, and like, what it would feel like to go through the looking glass. So you, you have this on page forty-four of your books.

• 31:35Michelle Obama?

  Oh my goodness. See, this is why I like this guy.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  There's a story that you tell about, well, I think it's 43 and 44.

• 31:44Michelle Obama?

  Alright.

• 31:44Speaker 01

  Forty or forty-four. Anyway, the point, because there's some pictures in between.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  Oprah comes and interviews you. Uh, the both of you.

• 31:53Michelle Obama?

  Which sounds crazy, right? Oprah comes to your house and interviews you. That's what life was like. It's like, she's coming to our house?

• 32:01Speaker 01

  This is before, I mean-

• 32:02Michelle Obama?

  Does she know who you are, Barack? She thinks you're important? Okay, alright, well, get ready.

• 32:10Michelle Obama?

  Like, wow.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  Now-

• 32:11Michelle Obama?

  That my, my motto then was, "Must have been a good speech," right? It's like, he gave that speech and all of a sudden, everybody knew who he was. And I was like, "It's a good speech. You did a great job. Let's go home. We gotta get back." Getting, we're in Boston. And then all the while, it just got more ridiculous. He was on the cover of Time. And I was like, "What?

• 32:32Michelle Obama?

  Oprah's coming?"

• 32:34Speaker 01

  This actually does sound surreal. Just imagine this person. How long had you guys been married at this point?

• 32:39Michelle Obama?

  Oh, we had been married seven, eight ye- uh, math, okay. It's been a while. Do the math, y'all. It was, we had kids. The kids were little, so.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  Just to like, watch this person who is just like, a regular schmegular guy, who you know has something special.

• 32:57Michelle Obama?

  For sure, yes.

• 32:58Speaker 01

  But, to see everybody else figure out what made you marry him is a different story.

• 33:02Michelle Obama?

  It's like, "Oh, wow, you guys are paying attention to this." So yeah, Oprah comes over.

• 33:05Speaker 01

  So she comes over, has the interview. She's so grateful that y'all took the time to do it. Sends you a gift.

• 33:14Michelle Obama?

  Oprah, this is Oprah. It wasn't a car, but it was close.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  Now, I don't want to step on any punchlines here, but I know what would have happened to that car.

• 33:28Speaker 01

  She sends you a suit, like a camel suit.

• 33:31Michelle Obama?

  She sends a box of then Ralph Lauren's first edition clothing line. It was like, three suits, seven sweats. I mean, it was an Oprah-sized gift. And this shows up at my door in this big locker trunk as a thank you. And I'm sitting there, like, with all these clothes, feeling like I've been Oprah'd. It's just like, "Wow, you get a car, and you get a car, and there's sweaters coming out, and it's all this great stuff, every color." It's like, "My god, this woman is rich."

• 34:09Michelle Obama?

  But because my husband, who is my husband, he's like, "We can't keep that." It's like, "What?" He's like, "I'm in office, we don't accept gifts." Imagine that.

• 34:34Michelle Obama?

  It's like, "They're all lovely, pack them up and send them back." So I called Oprah. Yep, I called Oprah and I was like, "I can't keep all these things." And she was like, "What?" She's like, "Yeah, Barack's in office, you know, there's..." I mean, "You're really not supposed to accept gifts." She's like, "But it's for me." And it's like, "Yeah, but, you know." So we sent that stuff back. I know! Listen. But there's a happy ending to it because he was a state senator. He stepped down a state senator, was running for US senator. In between that time, when he wasn't in office, Oprah sent the clothes back!

• 35:20Michelle Obama?

  What? Yes! She was watching, she was like, "Take them now, girl, take them now."

• 35:38Speaker 03

  All right. Meech, Michelle.

• 35:40Michelle Obama?

  Hey.

• 35:40Speaker 03

  We have done so many fun looks together.

• 35:43Michelle Obama?

  We have.

• 35:43Speaker 03

  Over the years. One of my personal favorites is when we started wearing your natural curls.

• 35:50Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 35:51Speaker 03

  For me, I love it because I felt like it was the opening of the freedom of post-life Michelle.

• 35:58Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 35:58Speaker 03

  Where you were in control and you got to do whatever you wanted with your hair. Tell me, you know, that's the vibe that she felt as well.

• 36:06Michelle Obama?

  I, I agree. I mean, I, I love, I loved my hair all the time because I had wonderful stylists like you helping me. So I never had to worry about it. But as you know, there, I, I always wanted to have the freedom to live my life without you.

• 36:24Michelle Obama?

  I didn't wanna, you know, I didn't wanna feel like I couldn't go out, I couldn't do anything unless Yanae was there making it happen. So when we started to go into the natural looks and wearing my natural curls and even working with, in Jerry with braids. And the freedom that you're talking about.

• 36:43Speaker 03

  I know you love your braids.

• 36:44Michelle Obama?

  I love my braids, I do.

• 36:45Speaker 03

  She loves her braids. I love the braids too.

• 36:47Michelle Obama?

  Well, because I'm also very active.

• 36:48Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 36:49Michelle Obama?

  Um, I'm swimming all the time, I'm playing tennis and, and I can do it myself whether you're there or not. Um, but the natural style that you structured, I loved it. Um, because it was fully me, um, it was free. It was also a representation to all textured girls out there that our hair comes in all different shapes, sizes and, and colors. And the, this straight look and bouncy look is wonderful. It's fun. But the way our hair curls naturally.

• 37:21Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 37:21Michelle Obama?

  Is also beautiful and full and alive in ways that, um, we got to celebrate.

• 37:28Speaker 03

  Absolutely. And the other thing is, is that with braids and natural hair, you are able to be in control, right? And it, and I think that particularly when you started wearing your hair natural, it was a rite of passage that everyone else was just like, okay, Michelle's doing it, I can do it too. Right? Like, everybody loved the flowy, bouncy, and I love that too. But I also love the versatility that our hair has. We have, our hair can be a chameleon and we, there's so much that we could do with it. And so you are able to embody that and show that to everyone to kind of give them, be like, all right, girl, you could do this too, which is extremely important. Um, you know that I'm very big on making sure that your hair isn't just looking beautiful, but that it stays healthy.

• 38:12Michelle Obama?

  Absolutely.

• 38:12Speaker 03

  And that goes back to the products that we use. So you know that I love your braids and I love that the braids give you the versatility that you want. And which is why we've played with you parts, we've played with wigs, we've done so many different things to master the look that you want for the time and place that you are in whatever you're doing. So I love Amika. We use Amika on your hair all the time. And it is a Brooklyn-born salon-powered brand.

• 38:41Michelle Obama?

  Which I love that.

• 38:42Speaker 03

  Yes, it's made by stylists. It is high-performing and it has amazing ingredients like sea buck thorn for visible results. It's designed to meet all hair needs. It gives us hydration, strength, smoothness, and shine. Amika is built with stylists, not just for them, which makes pro hair care joyful, approachable, and inclusive for all. And when I want fullness or versatility from my clients, I know that True & Pure Textures Extensions, founded by Pacila Riley, who's a part of the Amika Stylist Collective, is my go-to.

• 39:16Michelle Obama?

  And you were just telling me, what does Amika mean?

• 39:19Speaker 03

  It means friend.

• 39:20Michelle Obama?

  I didn't know that until you just mentioned it.

• 39:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:24Michelle Obama?

  So I love all that.

• 39:27Speaker 03

  If you want to experience these same pro-love products, check out Amika at loveamika.com and use code IMO20 for 20% off through the end of February. Because with Amika, all hair is welcome. Every texture, type, and style.

• 39:48Speaker 01

  Okay, so I just wanted to hear Oprah's side of the story.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  So I reached out to Oprah Winfrey.

• 39:55Michelle Obama?

  Of course you did.

• 39:58Speaker 01

  She got back to me. And what she heard, her version of the story, you guys, perfect, perfect alignment.

• 40:05Michelle Obama?

  Because it happened.

• 40:07Speaker 01

  And...

• 40:09Speaker 01

  But what she wanted me to know was that there was another story.

• 40:15Michelle Obama?

  Okay, well, she's talking about the...

• 40:17Speaker 01

  Yes. She has her Legends Ball.

• 40:21Michelle Obama?

  Yeah. Y'all, she invited me to the Legends Ball.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  As what Oprah called a youngin'.

• 40:28Michelle Obama?

  Yes.

• 40:28Speaker 01

  Because you were a youngin' at the time.

• 40:29Michelle Obama?

  I was the youngin', but I was still like, you know, Coretta Scott King was there.

• 40:33Speaker 01

  Tina Turner.

• 40:34Michelle Obama?

  Diana Ross.

• 40:36Speaker 01

  Maya Angelou.

• 40:37Michelle Obama?

  I said, Oprah, are you sure you meant to have me here?

• 40:43Michelle Obama?

  She was like, "Yeah, go sit down. You're supposed to be here."

• 40:46Speaker 01

  When Oprah goes sits down, you like-

• 40:48Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, she's just like, "Stop asking me that. Go sit down."

• 40:52Speaker 01

  Don't, don't cross that woman.

• 40:53Michelle Obama?

  That's right.

• 40:54Speaker 01

  But, she said that, you know, every year at her Legends events, she gives a gift to everybody who goes. The Legends get one, the Young'uns get one. And normally at the Legends events, she says, um, she gives out pajamas. Every year she was giving out pajamas. And this particular, your year-

• 41:17Michelle Obama?

  Well, it was her 50th birthday, so it was a big year for her. It's a big, it was the big one, right?

• 41:23Speaker 01

  Well, Gail is like, "Girl, don't be giving people pajamas." "Enough with the pajamas. We've, we've, enough. Don't do it." So Oprah's like, "Hmm, what can I give people? What would mean a lot that aren't pajamas, that would really entertain everybody and not take Gail off?" So she's like, "What about a little, uh, black diamond hoop earrings?"

• 41:54Michelle Obama?

  Well, there were two different types of earrings.

• 41:56Speaker 01

  And the teardrop, or the-

• 41:58Michelle Obama?

  The Legends got these big diamond teardrops. And then the Young'uns got these big diamond hoops with black and white diamonds on either side. So we're at this luncheon where everybody gets the gift and they're opening up. Again, you get a car, you get diamonds, you get diamonds. And I open mine up and I look at Oprah. And she's like, "You can't keep that." I was like, "I can't keep these." So everybody's like, "Ah, they're putting their diamonds on, ah!" You know, and all these, these are like, great. I was like, "You all don't have nice stuff?" I would think like, all of you all-

• 42:35Speaker 01

  Tina Turner is just rolling in the aisles.

• 42:38Michelle Obama?

  Like, I'm the only one in that group that's broke, right? And I was like, "We're so happy with these diamonds." And I was like, "You know I can't keep this." And she's like, "Really?" I was like, "I can't? I can't keep it?" Because he was a US senator then.

• 42:52Speaker 01

  Well, her version of this story, once again, "Y'all are on the newlywed game. Your stories match up." But what she, what she really wanted to emphasize in telling me this second story was that y'all are good people. Y'all are, wanted to stay on the right side of all the laws because, I mean, you know how it is. I mean, count the people who, every day you hear about people taking gifts and the gifts are like gold bars. This is a gift from the, one of the most famous people on planet earth. Can't keep it. And I think when she, she wanted me to run it by you, but she also wanted me and the rest of us to know that, from the beginning,

• 43:37Speaker 01

  y'all were ethical, conscientious, and, you know, she knew, she knew she'd chosen the right people to align her values with.

• 43:53Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  So...

• 43:54Michelle Obama?

  Well, that starts at the top. And that's, you know, one of the reasons why I love, many reasons why I love and respect my husband. That's who he is. He's doesn't, you know, he's not extravagant, but he believes in the importance of symbolism. And when you are the commander in chief, there's a standard at which, you know, you have to set for the American people. And some of these things aren't even laws. They're just norms. They're just things that you do because you don't want the people to feel like wealthy people have a different level of access and, you know, access to power. So that means you gotta say no a lot.

• 44:37Michelle Obama?

  Our motto was, like, if it looks like fun, we can't do it.

• 44:49Speaker 01

  Oh my God. Put that on every bumper sticker in this town.

• 44:54Speaker 01

  Alright, but let's talk about some of the symbolism. Can we have, well, let's do the slide that was previously up and then we'll just sort of go through them. So this is you wearing Jason Wu to the inaugural, to one of the inaugural balls.

• 45:08Michelle Obama?

  The first, the first one.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  Talk to me about this, the moment, the dress, what the experience was like, because this is you going through another portal, essentially.

• 45:24Michelle Obama?

  Yes, for sure. I mean, there were so many portals at this, in this time in our lives. And it was all very surreal, the whole day was surreal. I mean, many of you all were there, it was 800 below. It was like the coldest weather possible.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  You wore two pairs of pantyhose.

• 45:44Michelle Obama?

  Two pairs of pantyhose.

• 45:45Speaker 01

  How do you even do that?

• 45:47Michelle Obama?

  I didn't even realize. See, this is what I learned in the second inauguration. I was like, I'm putting on boots. And then it was like 70. But it was a long day that started with a prayer breakfast. So I'm of course up at 5:00 AM, right? Because that's what women have to do. We have to get up to get hair and makeup done. And then the girls have to get ready and mom, and you've got family and friends. So it's all a little spinny when that's going on. And so you go to the White House, you make that transition in the morning after the prayer breakfast. And then you get in the cars, you go to the Capitol. And that's when it gets otherworldly, when you're in the beast in that moment and you're driving down and you see the, you know, the monument.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  Actual vehicle, the beast.

• 46:33Michelle Obama?

  The beast. And you don't really see the breadth of that day until we walk out of the Capitol in that moment where you see the president, the family, everybody walk out. And that's when we saw what you would say, history. It was like, oh my God. Look at that. And when you grow up seeing the March on Washington, when you see the symbolism of what it means to be on the monument and you're on the other side of that, I mean, that's when you're like, whoa, this is, this is something. This is, and it should feel that way. You should feel the weight and the responsibility.

• 47:16Michelle Obama?

  I mean, the whole process is to ground the administration in the seriousness of the task you're about to take on and the responsibility and that it is not about you. It is about all those people standing in the cold, you know, hoping for some kind of change. But it is cold. And, uh, and then, you know, to do it with little kids. I mean, you remember how little the girls were? They were just so, you know, mothers with little kids. I'm just, don't fall. Okay, are you paying attention? Are you warm enough? You know, so I'm looking at the Bible, but I'm looking at Sasha teetering on a, on a stool, trying to look up. Are they paying attention?

• 48:01Michelle Obama?

  Is somebody picking their nose? Because these pictures are gonna be historic. So, you know, I've got that going on in my mind while I'm trying to take this in. And I, I think being a mother in these moments helped to ground me because I couldn't get too wrapped up in it because there's the mothering part. Are they okay? What does this feel like for them? Do they feel seen in this moment? I mean, how are they emotionally? I'm constantly weighing their emotional energy through all of this as well. That's why clothes have to be secondary. It had to be like-

• 48:40Speaker 01

  Like you mean you can't think about what you're wearing?

• 48:43Michelle Obama?

  That was always my motto. I had to set up enough of a process that allowed me to show up well, represented. But then, once the clothes were on, there was just too much going on. They had to fit, they had to move, they had to be warm. I had to know, we did all of that beforehand. So that once hair, makeup, as my team who is here knows, it's like, once it's done- Don't touch me, don't look at me, don't come near me. I don't, I barely look at myself when it's over. Because then the work happens, and that's the point. The point isn't the look, it's the look. It's us looking out for the country. It's us looking out for the nation. It's us looking out for all those people who are depending on us.

• 49:28Michelle Obama?

  So the look goes both ways.

• 49:30Speaker 01

  See, this is why you're doing my job now.

• 49:32Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 49:34Speaker 01

  I mean, because the title is infinite, right? It could, it means like a thousand different things. Um, can we have the next slide?

• 49:42Michelle Obama?

  So the, so the, this night, that gown was just the, the, the, the end of it. And I will say that the choice of Jason Wu, I've said this before, was intentional. The dress was beautiful, but we were beginning to realize that everything we did sent a message. Sometimes people would read the wrong thing into a fist bump into, uh, you know, uh,

• 50:07Speaker 01

  Into everything, Michelle.

• 50:08Michelle Obama?

  Into everything.

• 50:09Speaker 01

  Into every single thing.

• 50:10Michelle Obama?

  Which is why it's just like, look, folks, when I tell my story, I'm not whining. I don't feel put upon. This is just what happened. And I hope it doesn't offend someone for me to tell you what happened in my life. Because it is what happened to me, and it is the truth. As you said, if we don't tell it, there will be other people who will try to pretend like it didn't happen. But it did. Um, and so there were a lot of things that we had to take into account. I mean, the fact that something, you know, anything was made of me wearing, having my

• 50:48Michelle Obama?

  arms out was just a small indication of the kind of crazy attention that, or standard of beauty or acceptability that was at play. Um, so we knew that everything was gonna send a message. So who I chose to design my gown was intentional. Jason Wu was an extraordinary designer. This was not a D I, D E I hire. It was an affirmative action. It was the prettiest dress. It was the best dress I put on. It made me feel ethereal.

• 51:24Michelle Obama?

  He just happened to be an immigrant kid, new to the business, who happened to be as talented, if not more, than some of the greats, who always got those opportunities. Oscar De La Renta, he just got the opportunity. It was just a given. And see, that's how the world shouldn't work. You know, at some point, we, the greats, should step aside to let some of the young people get a chance. And so, that was always my point.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  I mean, you're saying that in Washington DC.

• 51:58Michelle Obama?

  Well, but doing that, me wearing Jason Wu, where that could have been Oscar De La Renta, it would have just been another one of his accomplishments. For Jason Wu, it changed his life. And so, that's what we were trying to do with the choices that we made, was to change lives, to say something different about who belonged and who was good enough. And Jason Wu, that dress was the beginning of like, "We're gonna do this with everything we do, including everything I put on. We're gonna rep American designers, we're gonna rep everyone." But, you know, I didn't wear Chanel, I didn't wear beautiful clothes, but...

• 52:40Speaker 01

  Let's look at some of the beautiful clothes.

• 52:42Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, but I always repped American designers of all races, of all classes, and these are... Well, this just, this is, just shows the breadth of my style evolution.

• 52:56Speaker 01

  Can we talk about the Sergio Hudson, I mean, all of these? I believe, I believe, these appear together, I believe, in the, I'm gonna call this the breaking the internet portion of the book. Do you under, like, so I get... Sorry.

• 53:17Speaker 01

  I understand that one and that one in terms of like kapow, kapow, kapow.

• 53:23Michelle Obama?

  It's like blam.

• 53:24Speaker 01

  But I want to say, I love this country because that one, the Sergio Hudson, the one you wore to Joe Biden's inauguration, that to me is just one of the most bewitching

• 53:39Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 53:40Speaker 01

  pieces of outfits I've ever seen anybody wear.

• 53:45Speaker 01

  There is so much happening here that I have never seen on anybody.

• 53:50Michelle Obama?

  Really?

• 53:51Speaker 01

  I mean, well, think about when this was happening.

• 53:53Michelle Obama?

  Uh huh, yeah.

• 53:54Speaker 01

  You're wearing a mask.

• 53:55Michelle Obama?

  Well, nobody saw anybody. That was also it, you know? It was like, they were probably like, they're still alive! That's what I attribute some of that to. It's like, oh my God, Mom and Dad are still here.

• 54:09Speaker 01

  But you had never worn...

• 54:15Speaker 01

  You had never worn anything like this. I mean, at least in terms of how we think about you in public, right? And just talk to me about how it felt to wear that. And did you feel powerful in it? Because this is a power suit.

• 54:34Michelle Obama?

  It's a power suit.

• 54:34Speaker 01

  These are power clothes.

• 54:36Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 54:36Speaker 01

  And so, uh, talk to me about what it felt to be in them.

• 54:40Michelle Obama?

  Well, you know, a beautiful anything, right? Makes you feel everything, right? For that particular event, I mean, we all remember what just happened. January 6th happened. So to my mind, I was really in practical mode. We didn't know what was going to happen at this inauguration because the sitting president was trying to convince us that January 6th was just a peaceful protest.

• 55:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:10Michelle Obama?

  So it wasn't clear whether anybody was going to be safe. Were you safe at the Capitol where it just happened? So to my mind, where we usually travel with hair, makeup for touch-ups, staff, assistants, I said, "I don't want anybody with me inside this perimeter." Because if something pops off, I don't want to put my team in jeopardy. So I was like, "We're getting dressed." I knew I wanted to wear pants because I was thinking, if I have to run... No, I mean, I'm seriously.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  That's where you were.

• 55:45Michelle Obama?

  I was thinking, I need to be comfortable. I need to, I, that's not a heel. The boot that I wore was a lower heel. I wanted to, I wanted to be able to move. I wanted to be ready.

• 55:59Speaker 01

  That's what it is, though, right?

• 56:01Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 56:02Speaker 01

  This is offensive and defensive.

• 56:04Michelle Obama?

  Yes.

• 56:05Speaker 01

  This is preemptive.

• 56:06Michelle Obama?

  And any power that comes, just comes with the... Yeah, we're, we're here because this is important. And it's important for us to show up. I think that's what was going through my mind. This feeling of, we're gonna be okay. You know? Democracy can withstand a lot, and our presence has to represent that. I don't know that it was, now, the coat is beautiful, the, the flow of the pant was, was lovely. Yes, all of that. But by then, I was already, I wasn't wearing a lot of dresses then. I had my Becoming book tour, so I was in pants more and more, because I was just shifting

• 56:50Michelle Obama?

  away from that look into something else. And I was like, and I'm gonna continue that look here. And Sergio Hudson is a fabulous designer. And he is, he's known for his suits and his coats. Meredith pulled it out, and once again, I put it on. I felt good in it. I felt warm. And I, we had no idea that it was going to break the internet. I mean, there's some of these moments, the Versace dress.

• 57:16Speaker 01

  You knew.

• 57:17Michelle Obama?

  I put that on, I was like... Yeah, this one. The gold boots. It's like, yeah, these are really, really cute. And I can, Barack is at the first test, right? So, I walk out, and he's like, wow! And I'm like, mm, it's a good one, right? Yeah, yeah. But, that, the, the inaugural outfit was, there was really a lot of practicality for me that went into that dressing because of the, because of the circumstances.

• 57:48Speaker 01

  Can I read it a little more?

• 57:49Michelle Obama?

  Please.

• 57:50Speaker 01

  The belt.

• 57:52Michelle Obama?

  Oh, the belt.

• 57:53Speaker 01

  The belt is superhero, right?

• 57:55Michelle Obama?

  You think?

• 57:56Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't know what, this is not about you.

• 57:57Michelle Obama?

  Dun-dun-dun!

• 57:58Speaker 01

  If I'm doing my job.

• 57:59Michelle Obama?

  Uh-huh, yeah.

• 58:00Speaker 01

  The belt, to me, says Marvel.

• 58:04Michelle Obama?

  Ma, ma.

• 58:05Speaker 01

  It says... Strength.

• 58:10Speaker 01

  It also says, "I don't give a fuck."

• 58:15Speaker 01

  Like,

• 58:18Speaker 01

  I did this, I mean, I don't know who you did it for, but it definitely felt like that was whatever it means to say for you, for you.

• 58:26Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 58:28Speaker 01

  I don't know, it's just such a-

• 58:30Michelle Obama?

  No, that, and that, absolutely, once I left the White House, the responsibility of dressing for that job changed because I was not in that job anymore. I know a lot of young people say, "Did you feel like you had to give up part of yourself to, you know?" Look, when you're a professional, you dress for the job. And that's what I tell young people. It's like, until you have control and power and leverage, then you better look at what your boss is wearing and act accordingly because you need a paycheck. So be smart about it. You dress for the job, and the job of First Lady was a different kind of job. When I was done with that, I was doing different, I was my own boss.

• 59:15Michelle Obama?

  I wasn't, I wasn't representing the nation in that way. So, yes, those, a lot of the, and the Versace dress was the last state dinner. So that was a kind of, "I don't care" dress. And I will tell you, that one was like, because of the dresses that were available, that rose gold, I put that on, I was like, "This is sexy. It's the last one, this is like, bye." Bye.

• 59:48Speaker 04

  Hi, I'm Carl Ray, and I'm Michelle Obama's longtime makeup artist. I've been on many of these sets, but I'm so excited to be in front of the camera. My first client was my mom. I would always watch her apply her makeup. When I was around 14 years old, I asked her if I could do it for her because I thought I could do a better job. She obliged and soon after she started asking me to do her makeup a lot. I never knew makeup was a career until I was an adult. Now my work has introduced me to so many interesting experiences. I've worked in film, TV, print, fashion and beauty all around the world. I've also had the pleasure to work with many celebrities and dignitaries along the way. And I'd love to work with you.

• 1:00:33Speaker 04

  So the next time you're booking on Airbnb, click on the services tab. You'll find professionals like me and my team. We can help make your next special occasion even more memorable. Weddings, galas, birthdays, headshots, or anytime you just want to feel and look your very best. You can find me at Airbnb.com/services.

• 1:00:55Craig Robinson?

  This episode of IMO is brought to you by Progressive Insurance, who help people move forward and live fully. Owning a home can be one of the most powerful ways to build financial security. But for many, especially first generation buyers, it can feel out of reach. That's why I appreciate what Progressive is doing. In 2024, they contributed over $7 million to help individuals and families break the cycle of renting by providing support, offering educational resources and developing tools to build long-term financial stability through homeownership. Their work goes beyond just insurance. They're opening doors.

• 1:01:40Craig Robinson?

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• 1:02:14Craig Robinson?

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• 1:02:59Craig Robinson?

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• 1:03:44Craig Robinson?

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• 1:04:27Craig Robinson?

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• 1:04:52Speaker 01

  One photo we don't have with respect to that Versace dress that is in this book. And I know-

• 1:04:59Michelle Obama?

  Look at you with your, your tabbed book.

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  I put a tab on the Versace-

• 1:05:04Michelle Obama?

  You all raised a very thorough young man.

• 1:05:07Speaker 01

  Um, there is a photo of, can we talk about, can we talk about this one?

• 1:05:14Michelle Obama?

  Oh, the, the back?

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  There's no page number.

• 1:05:18Michelle Obama?

  What page? It's in the section of the-

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  That's probably my, Robin, is that you?

• 1:05:24Michelle Obama?

  It's in the section of, there's a whole section on inaugural gowns.

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  It's just before page 210.

• 1:05:31Michelle Obama?

  So what is it? You're looking at the draping on it?

• 1:05:34Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:05:35Michelle Obama?

  What are you looking at? What are you saying?

• 1:05:38Speaker 01

  There's a photo of you, I never watched you from behind.

• 1:05:45Speaker 01

  I've never done it, and it's, it's not for the reasons you think. I'm just, it, it just never, it's not, that's not what we're doing here.

• 1:05:54Michelle Obama?

  It looks good. It's, it's a well-did it dress.

• 1:05:58Speaker 01

  It looks great, but I'm saying-

• 1:06:00Michelle Obama?

  What are you saying?

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  Jeff Koons, Brancusi, this to me is like, you can see your reflection in this dress.

• 1:06:13Michelle Obama?

  Yes.

• 1:06:14Speaker 01

  And the one place where it's not draping is back there. And this, this is, this is, you just said-

• 1:06:22Michelle Obama?

  Yes.

• 1:06:23Speaker 01

  This, I, I D G A F.

• 1:06:30Speaker 01

  This is Kiss My Ass.

• 1:06:31Michelle Obama?

  Oh.

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  This is, the world is looking and can see themselves in this part of the dress.

• 1:06:40Michelle Obama?

  It's like, you can see the reflection.

• 1:06:42Speaker 01

  You can't do it in the front.

• 1:06:43Michelle Obama?

  Right.

• 1:06:44Speaker 01

  In the front, it's...

• 1:06:45Michelle Obama?

  Well, now you're reading a lot into...

• 1:06:50Speaker 01

  You put the ball on the team, Mrs. Obama. I'm gonna take a swing.

• 1:06:53Michelle Obama?

  I didn't, look. Much, all of my choices ultimately are what is beautiful and what looks beautiful on. And I think as women, in the end, that's the whole point of it. One of my philosophies is that if I don't feel good in it, if I don't feel beautiful, I don't buy it. I don't pick it. I don't wear things because they're in. I don't, I don't even know whether I'm gonna like a dress. I don't pick a dress from the rack because we all know something that looks good on the rack, you put it on and it's like, ooh, not for me. And that's one of the messages. It's like, if you, if you feel good with your arms out,

• 1:07:35Michelle Obama?

  wear your arms out. You know, if you feel good in nylons, then put them on. That was my philosophy.

• 1:07:41Speaker 01

  Does anybody feel good in nylons?

• 1:07:43Michelle Obama?

  Some people do. I don't know. I did not like them.

• 1:07:48Speaker 01

  But you also look happy, like, in a lot of those photos.

• 1:07:52Michelle Obama?

  I'm always happy. I, I have, I, I had a really great job and a great time doing it. And we got a lot done. I mean, there was so much joy in everything we did. And this is one of the things that I wanted to show in the book, was the life of that White House. Just the vibrancy, the activity, the... So, you know, we could have done just a series of photos of standing in pretty dresses, but when you open this book, you see, you see kids, you see puppies, you see all the movement because we were an active White House. And that, and we were a joyful White House.

• 1:08:36Speaker 01

  One of the chapters is called "First Lady as a Verb."

• 1:08:40Michelle Obama?

  Yeah. I mean, everything for me was about...

• 1:08:45Michelle Obama?

  It was about moving the ball. I mean, literally, physically, moving the ball. An initiative, as my team will know in the East Wing, it was like, what are we going to do? We're not going to announce something. I didn't want to be a symbolic first lady that was a slogan first lady. It's like, hmm, you know, just say whatever. I wanted to, I wanted to have tangible goals and outcomes that I could see because I came from that world of running a nonprofit. I ran programs. I started things. I like to build things and see them go.

• 1:09:23Speaker 01

  Those are great verbs. I mean, for real.

• 1:09:28Michelle Obama?

  So, yes, I was always a person that was thinking about moving things forward, going ahead, and that helped us get through. You know, if you're focused on the work, you know, just getting things done every day, then it makes all the hardships, all the thorns and arrows, and all the haters, and all the negative things, they just blow right off of you because you have an agenda in front of you. And if you focus on that agenda, which is what I would tell my team, that's what we're going to focus on. And clothes were like that, too. We're going to figure out a process that we make this simple so that we're not, while I have to wear a lot of clothes, I'm not going to spend every day,

• 1:10:09Michelle Obama?

  I cannot spend every day thinking about what I'm going to wear. I have to have this done quickly. We fit one day a month. We fit, we had the calendar. We knew what we were doing. Meredith, my stylist, brought clothes in. We fit them, we tried them on, done. So that the work could get done. And as I said, I was concerned about, can I hug somebody in it? Will he get dirty? I mean, I was the kind of first lady that there was no telling what I would do. You know, I mean, I'd walk out the house and

• 1:10:43Speaker 01

  And hula hoop!

• 1:10:44Michelle Obama?

  And I'm doing push-ups, you know? And then people start, I mean, in the time that I was, I think I caught a football pass from an NFL player. I played soccer with David Beckham. I did push-ups with Desmond Tutu. I have Done, broken a Guinness World's Record for jumping jacks. I mean, and this would all happen on a day. You know, it could, it could be, you know, you're giving a speech on health here, you're meeting with the first lady of blah, blah, blah, and now you're digging up dirt in the backyard with kids. Um, so my clothes had to be ready for that.

• 1:11:23Michelle Obama?

  Because the thing about clothes that I find is that they can welcome people in or they can keep people away. And if you're so put together and so precious and things are so crisp and the pin is so big, you know, it can just tell people, "Don't touch me." You know, if you're not dressed to bring people in.

• 1:11:48Speaker 01

  That's a great point about the clothes.

• 1:11:49Michelle Obama?

  You know, your clothes can make people push away. It, so I always wanted to be able to, if a rope line was happening, if somebody was gonna be in tears and need a hug, we're not wearing white, we're gonna wear print if I have stuff to do because I'm not gonna leave some, I'm not gonna push somebody away when they need something from me and I'm not gonna let the clothes get in the way of that. And I had a team of people who understood that.

• 1:12:17Michelle Obama?

  So, you know, there, there had to be a lot of thought. And that stuff had to be done well in advance.

• 1:12:25Speaker 01

  Well, I wanna talk about the team for a second because these people seem fantastic.

• 1:12:31Michelle Obama?

  They are.

• 1:12:32Speaker 01

  They've been around the entire time.

• 1:12:40Speaker 01

  Um, and I don't know, I mean, Yenay and, and Jerry.

• 1:12:50Speaker 01

  And Meredith, of course, Carl.

• 1:12:52Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:56Speaker 01

  I want to, I want to take a second to talk about Carl.

• 1:12:58Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:59Speaker 01

  Because, there's a part, I mean, you know, everybody, one of the beautiful things about this book, is that everybody who is on the team, has a little section of the book where they talk about how they got started, what it's been like to work with you, what the artistry that they practiced, because I mean, it's work, but it also is, and it's a talent, but it also is art. And, for, like, Carl's entry in this book, like, I might start, I'm gonna read it. I'm gonna read part of it, because I think it's beautiful.

• 1:13:34Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:34Speaker 01

  And I think that, like, it is such a, um, it stands in for the whole of how many, many people think about you in a way that feels different from the way we've thought about people who've had this job before. And I also think that it is a testament to, I just can't imagine many other women allowing what Carl wrote to appear in print, at all, because, it's just, well, it's intimate.

• 1:14:09Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  Um, and it's about you, so hold on, let me just read a little part.

• 1:14:13Michelle Obama?

  Okay.

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  This is, this is, this is,

• 1:14:14Michelle Obama?

  I love your take.

• 1:14:15Speaker 01

  This is Carl Ray,

• 1:14:16Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:17Speaker 01

  writing about what it is like to do Michelle Obama's makeup.

• 1:14:25Michelle Obama?

  Carl, are you listening?

• 1:14:31Speaker 01

  Carl's here?

• 1:14:32Michelle Obama?

  Carl is here.

• 1:14:33Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:14:33Michelle Obama?

  Carl's always here, look at me, don't I look like Carl's here?

• 1:14:38Speaker 01

  Um, alright, so I'm gonna start.

• 1:14:42Michelle Obama?

  Can you read it? You can't read, you can't see, can you? I was about, I'm sitting here going, wow, he's got great eyesight.

• 1:14:49Speaker 01

  That's good enough to get me through this, I think I can do it.

• 1:14:52Michelle Obama?

  Okay, hold it up real close. Or far away.

• 1:14:55Speaker 01

  I think, I think I can do it.

• 1:14:58Speaker 01

  Depending on whatever she's doing later that day, I might add to that and then use some concealer. This is about the foundation.

• 1:15:08Speaker 01

  This is a parenthetical. "She inherited amazing skin from her mother and has passed it on to her girls." "I set her face with powder, which allows everything else to apply smoothly. And often, I do a little quote 'baking' unquote by applying extra powder beneath her eyes, down her nose and on her chin and forehead. We then finish with a setting spray. Her skin has red undertones, so I use warm bronze and gold tones to highlight and brighten her cheekbones and other high points of her face. And cooler brown tones for contouring and sculpting her jaw, nose, cheeks, and forehead, blending along the way to enhance the structure of her face. If she's wearing an off-the-shoulder look,

• 1:15:53Speaker 01

  I apply shimmer or glow to her shoulders and decolletage."

• 1:16:00Speaker 01

  Depending on what she's wearing, I sometimes even apply it down her arms and legs. Then I work on her eyes, my favorite part. I fill in the lids, often with gold, bronze, or soft peach, and then do a brown contour on each eye crease. I generally use a black pencil on her top lash line, sometimes followed with a liquid eyeliner for a quote 'kitten eye.' We've gone full-blown cat on special occasions.

• 1:16:28Speaker 01

  I then use a black or brown kohl eyeliner on her waterline." Now, I don't know what a waterline is. Is it just the... okay. Thank you, Carl. I learned something new. "I then use a black or brown kohl eyeliner on her waterline and fill in her eyebrows with a brow pencil and powder. Lips and lashes are generally last. For her mouth, I use a lip pencil, lipstick, and finish with a gloss. Seventy-five percent of the time, I opt for a nude lip, which I do in a variety of tones, including peach, brown, caramel, and pink. Nothing too distracting, always enhancing. I always want the focus to be on her message." I'm gonna skip way ahead. Michelle remains my primary client.

• 1:17:13Speaker 01

  I've worked with her for sixteen years, and I believe she's more beautiful now than ever before.

• 1:17:19Speaker 01

  I'm not done.

• 1:17:23Speaker 01

  She loves the fact that I'm fast. This is fast. How long does this take?

• 1:17:29Michelle Obama?

  He can do that in 15 minutes.

• 1:17:30Speaker 01

  Damn. I mean, how long did it take the 15th Chapel to happen? I mean, um... Michelle Remi is my primary client. I've worked with her for 16 years and I believe she's more beautiful now than she ever was before. She loves the fact that I'm fast. Sometimes, she doesn't even look in the mirror when I'm done! That's his exclamation point. "Look at yourself, I'll say! You're beautiful." President Obama, on multiple occasions, has said, "Carl, I want to thank you for making Michelle look and feel beautiful." And he always responds, "My pleasure."

• 1:18:07Michelle Obama?

  He does. That's beautiful. I'm so glad you read that. Yeah.

• 1:18:16Speaker 01

  I find that so moving because it is like the care. I didn't want to go into this, really, because it kind of doesn't need... It's so obvious, it doesn't need to be said. But this is a black woman.

• 1:18:36Speaker 01

  This is a black woman who is in the White House. A place, I mean, I don't care what they say, she was never supposed to be.

• 1:18:45Speaker 01

  The idea that you were being beautified in a place that, you know, at many points in history, were responsible for making sure... You couldn't even write the words "White House"

• 1:19:02Speaker 01

  by a white man who loved you.

• 1:19:06Speaker 01

  It's just, that is America to me.

• 1:19:11Michelle Obama?

  That is... Yes, it is. Yes, it is.

• 1:19:19Speaker 01

  I don't know, this book is deep. Because nobody talks about this stuff. Right? I mean, you can get, you can go to YouTube and see all kinds of beauty tutorials and all that stuff. But, this isn't a tutorial. This is, it's kind of like, fashion criticism. It is an artist talking about his craft.

• 1:19:41Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:41Speaker 01

  It is hearing about what it is like to practice that craft on an excellent person. I'm gonna say according to him, but I know, you know.

• 1:19:53Speaker 01

  What is, what is it? How does it feel to have gone through that experience?

• 1:20:03Speaker 01

  Where what is happening is, on the one hand, how you're supposed to look. But beneath that, really is about how you're feeling.

• 1:20:20Speaker 01

  Even a question? Is that a question?

• 1:20:22Michelle Obama?

  You know, it's complicated, because I, you know, as I said before, I think that,

• 1:20:33Michelle Obama?

  life is such, during those times, even now, can be such a whirlwind.

• 1:20:40Michelle Obama?

  That there, I think this is the moment where I took the time to actually reflect on it.

• 1:20:47Speaker 01

  So what came up for you while you were reflecting on it? I mean, we have the book, but what was it like to write it?

• 1:20:53Michelle Obama?

  Well, it was beautiful. It was a book that I always knew I wanted to write. The question was always the timing of it. Because I think, quite frankly, I probably had a little PTSD, I probably still do, about how I, what I put out into the world. Because I know that there will always be some kind of commentary, some reaction. You do it, you also want a reaction. I mean, I wrote this book to create a conversation among us as people, as women, as women of color. You know, so, I knew I wanted to do this. It was just, now felt like the time.

• 1:21:34Michelle Obama?

  I also knew that I wanted to use this as kind of a love letter to the team of people that you just wrote about, Meredith and Carl and Yonay and Jerry. And let me just say, that team is the team that's been with me the longest, but there are so many others. All the seamstresses, all the designers, Johnny Wright, who was my hairdresser during the eight years in the White House. I think Dawn is here, who has done my nails all this time. I mean, my trainers and, you know, it's just, you know, this whole process of showing up for the world, it, there's no way I could do it without this team.

• 1:22:18Michelle Obama?

  And I, I think about how much they sacrifice because we live in an age where it's like the, the odd part of the first lady position is that, I guess I'm famous, but I'm not a celebrity.

• 1:22:33Speaker 01

  What's the difference to you?

• 1:22:36Michelle Obama?

  Well, celebrity is a celebrity stylist. You're styling for beauty, you're styling to be seen. I'm styling to work. And I'm not saying that, you know, there, you know, there, I never walked on a red carpet other than a state dinner red carpet. I am the first, I have a job to do. And so my team has to understand that mission. And when you've worked in the beauty industry and you're used to a stylist who wants credit or wants to be seen, it's like, we're not even talking about this. We did all of this and we're not talking about it. Because we're also thinking about the times that we're in.

• 1:23:20Michelle Obama?

  How are we going to talk about fashion when there's a recession? How are we going to talk about, you know, a pair of shoes when, you know, we, we need immigration reform? I mean, there is also thinking about what is appropriate to say at what time. And I always felt like fashion was the underlying story, so that meant that they had to kind of cut their shine. You know, there was no posting, there was no behind the scenes gossip or talk. And to have people who were so young, let me just remind you, Yonay was 18, 19 years old when she started, you'll hear her story. And Jerry the same way. These were kids. Meredith was 28 years old.

• 1:24:04Michelle Obama?

  We had a very young White House. A lot of really smart young kids who came in, understanding the assignment. That none of this was about them, me. We were there to support the Commander in Chief. We were there to represent the country. Everybody took their jobs seriously. They didn't make money. There was no glamour to it. In an industry of glamour. You know? This was about message and service. And the fact that they were willing to make that sacrifice. Right alongside of us. Riding in, you know, bad sweaty vans. Taking helicopter rides that were precarious.

• 1:24:45Michelle Obama?

  You know, being on boats, being in holds in Africa with no air conditioning and no lights and through thunder. So, I mean, this was not a glamorous job. But they did it and did it well. So, I want their stories to be told because this is what this work is. You know? We, as women, we don't get to just show up any kind of way. We don't have the luxury yet to just wake up and throw on a tie and call it a day. There's a lot of...

• 1:25:25Michelle Obama?

  And I think this book is, you know, this book is kind of speaking for all of us. For all that work that we do that sometimes goes unacknowledged. I mean, I even saw it when we did foreign trips. You know, the West Wing didn't necessarily plan a trip for a woman. You know, they wouldn't think about the cobblestones, or the rain, or the grass, or the terrain. But yet, here I am, following my husband around in a pair of heels, or, you know, because what a man has to do is, if it's casual, you take the jacket off. If it's formal, you put the jacket on. You take the tie off, you put the tie on. It's like, we don't get to do that. But I'm with him every step of the way.

• 1:26:10Michelle Obama?

  I'm doing, it's like the Ginger Rogers thing. I'm doing the same thing, giving speeches, but I'm doing it with heels and walking backwards. And it's not just me, you know, it was our Secretary of State. It was all of our senior advisors. It was Nancy Pelosi. When I would think about these women who are along on these Codels, and they're trying to keep it together and keep their hair in place. And the men are just, in their stupid suits, just not thinking, not asking a question, not realizing all the machinations that have to go on for us to stand up and show up. And we feel like we have to do this stuff quietly, like it just happens. It isn't magic. It's a lot of frickin' work.

• 1:26:56Michelle Obama?

  And it takes care.

• 1:26:58Speaker 01

  I think that's also the four pounds, right? Like, the work, I mean, they worked, y'all worked, so we work, right? Like, to lift this, to carry it. I gotta take two of these back.

• 1:27:14Michelle Obama?

  Okay.

• 1:27:15Speaker 01

  I put them tellingly in my garment bag.

• 1:27:21Speaker 01

  Did anybody, you're talking about these, you know, the difference for women in this experience in terms of like what you all had to, just what it's like to put on clothes, period.

• 1:27:34Speaker 01

  Did anybody talk to you just about how to not look or how to look during those years? Did you get advice from anybody?

• 1:27:43Michelle Obama?

  No.

• 1:27:44Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:27:46Michelle Obama?

  No, there isn't, you know, there isn't a handbook for it. You know, that was one of the excellent things that Meredith was able to do. And most of this was, it was very important on foreign travel. Because, you know, even the State Dinner at Buckingham Palace, to wear gloves, to not wear gloves, that is the question.

• 1:28:09Speaker 01

  You wore the gloves.

• 1:28:10Michelle Obama?

  I wore the gloves, but there were so many meetings about those gloves, and were they appropriate, and who wore them? Did the Queen wear them? And what did other First Ladies do? And the State Department, they weren't that helpful. They didn't have the strong opinion about it. And let me tell you, if I showed up as the first black first lady and didn't have something appropriate, you remember when I touched the Queen? After she touched me, it's like, she touched me first, y'all. She did. She did. And I felt like it was rude not to touch her back. Or you wear a cardigan.

• 1:28:51Michelle Obama?

  I mean, you know, we were out in the country, in the world, representing the country. That takes work. Visit with the Pope. The amount of requirements to visit the Pope. A mantilla, you've got to have your arms covered, you've got to cover your knees. That's if you're... You know, you can be in the Sistine Chapel in shorts and a t-shirt, but if you're going upstairs to see the Pope, there is a way to dress. And some of that comes from the State Department, but some of that work was Meredith researching what other first ladies wore and calling designers people on the ground who knew.

• 1:29:36Michelle Obama?

  And because she did that work, I didn't have to. I could be there and do the work and know that what I had on was appropriate. Those are things that male leaders do not have to think about. If you were visiting an Arab country, the amount of rules and who you can touch and who you can't and what you can't do as a woman, all of that is... It matters very much. So that becomes a real... That's a real diplomacy issue. That if you get it wrong, maybe you wear the wrong color or you've, you know...

• 1:30:17Michelle Obama?

  A color in a certain country could mean something. So you're constantly sending messages with everything you do. And for me, there's absolutely no way that I could get to a foreign country because I was also working there, giving speeches, meeting with young girls, doing work there, and then I had my kids as well, and they had to be dressed appropriately. You had to wear something to get off the plane, then you had to get in the car, and then you had to wear something to the, just the amount of packing that would take for a foreign trip. That was all Meredith. There was one person doing that for me, my girls, my mom, if she traveled.

• 1:30:58Michelle Obama?

  Managing outfits, steaming, getting things ready for event after event after event. That's a lot of work, y'all.

• 1:31:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, um, we've got to go.

• 1:31:09Michelle Obama?

  Oh.

• 1:31:10Speaker 01

  Um, but, uh, I've just got a, my sister asked, wanted, my sister and her friends had some questions.

• 1:31:18Michelle Obama?

  Okay.

• 1:31:19Speaker 01

  We have time for one. Um, it's a question I share, which is basically, um, do you get advice from your daughters about what to wear and what not to wear?

• 1:31:32Michelle Obama?

  No, let me not, not laugh at that. No, no, no. The girls, they, yes, I, I get the, mm, you look good, Mom, or that works. I know if they, look, they go in my closet a lot.

• 1:31:47Speaker 01

  That's a sign of approval.

• 1:31:48Michelle Obama?

  Oh, for sure, but they, you know, as they get older, they're starting to respect what I have. I mean, I remember I was going to give Sasha and Elia a dress that I had, and for those of you, Elia is a really, she's like, why would I want that? And I was like, ooh, you just don't know. You just don't know. But now they're starting to know. It's just been fun watching them come into their own style. They're very different girls. They have their unique style. I find that I'm now at a point where I'll, I'll see something cool that they have, a jacket or a shoe, and I'm like, where'd you get that? We're doing more of that. They're like, where'd you get that? But it, you, that's very different, you know? Teenage children, that Brandy Melville period, ugh.

• 1:32:37Michelle Obama?

  I'm sorry, but that's that short, those short dresses and the, they went through, they were just like every young teenager. They wanted the stuff off of the web. They wanted to go to the mall. They wanted, you know, they, they, they didn't, they thought designer clothes were for old people. And so they're just now, as they're coming into their own professions, they're just now starting to appreciate the quality of clothes and to understand dressing for, you know, being out in the world. So, we're, we're, we're starting to develop a more shared fashion story together.

• 1:33:15Speaker 01

  And it's like a new thing for you to talk about?

• 1:33:18Michelle Obama?

  No, no, with girls, you're always. Look, Sasha was beating her face from the time she was 11 years old, because this is the thing about this new generation, social media introduces them to a lot of stuff. Early on, I didn't wear makeup until Oprah came over. I mean, literally, you know, you take one picture that appears in the press with no makeup on, and you're like, I need a makeup artist. Because I don't wear makeup all the time, but when you are filmed and seen, it does make a difference. You do not show up on TV without makeup. You just, Barack will get touched up. He's learning that, too.

• 1:33:59Michelle Obama?

  So, I didn't grow up wearing makeup, but the girls, you guys who have young girls, they all know how to do their makeup because of social media. They all go on these websites, and they know how to powder and contour in ways that are amazing to me. So Sasha was doing that for the longest, and Barack was like, she's just wearing too much makeup. And I was like, it's a phase, you know? This is what he had to understand. Girls, we play. We play in these spaces. And I was like, let them play. You know, they will get to the point where they will decide as women on their own, what they can afford to do, what they have time to do. I was like, they get to the point, it's like Sasha, the minute she gets in college,

• 1:34:41Michelle Obama?

  when she doesn't have any time, no makeup, and lo and behold, she chose sleep over the extra time to put that. So it's just slowly, it's like, woo, yeah, that hour routine, you know, you can do that when you finish your homework and you're just at home, uh, but...

• 1:34:58Speaker 01

  You could learn from Carl how to do it in 15 minutes.

• 1:35:01Michelle Obama?

  That's true. She's gotten faster. Um, but that's the, the, the beauty of having young, young, young girls around, uh, just watching them, and I give credit to that, th- this new generation, the younger generation. A lot of this openness, the sharing comes from that. They want authenticity. They want to hear your truth. They don't want things to be powdered over or smoothed over. And they're honest. Um, and I think my decision to wear braids more and more comes from a whole generation of young black girls who are embracing their natural hair, who are no longer using relaxers,

• 1:35:45Michelle Obama?

  who are saying, "Take me as I am," who are embracing their beauty. And as I said, I wanted to be a part of supporting them in that journey, and I know that me being Michelle Obama, the first, uh, former first lady, wearing braids in the White House mattered. Um, and that was a deliberate decision that I made to support young girls that are trying to break old patterns and norms that don't serve them as young, young girls. And I credit that generation, and I, I want them to continue to be themselves and show up in ways that make sense for them, not following some limited stereotype of what beauty is. And I say that not just to girls of color, but to all women.

• 1:36:30Michelle Obama?

  You know, that's what we need to break out of is this one narrow standard of what is acceptable and beautiful. I hope that what I've shown is that beauty comes in all shapes, sizes, and colors. There isn't one way to wear your hair. There isn't one way to look professional. There isn't one way of showing up as an American. And I think it's incumbent upon all of us as women not to make, not to look for us to look like each other. You know, we should embrace the power of how different we are. Our hair texture, our sizes and shapes, it's all beautiful and it's all important and it all matters.

• 1:37:13Michelle Obama?

  But we have to fight for it because if we let somebody else set those standards for us, we will be trapped in this narrow definition. That's how we got in this mess in the first place. That's how we got in this mess, in this place in the first place. So, yes. So, I, I hope that this empowers us as women, as people, to embrace all of who we are, whatever that looks like. Michelle Obama, everybody! Thank you, Wesley! You all, thank you, DC. Thank you for buying the book. Wonderful crowd. You all take care. Good night.

• 1:37:57Craig Robinson?

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• 1:38:41Craig Robinson?

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• 1:39:20Craig Robinson?

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• 1:39:33Speaker 05

  I'm Emma Grede, host of Aspire with Emma Grede, the podcast where I sit down with people who don't just dream big, they build big. If you love Michelle and Craig on IMO, just wait until you hear their episode on my show. Michelle told me about the moment at 26 when she lost her father and her best friend in the same year. It made her walk away from her corporate law career to figure out her why. That's the kind of conversation you get on Aspire. We talk about mindset, ambition, and doing the work that actually moves the needle. So if you're ready to raise your standards and take charge of the life you're building, Aspire is where you start. Follow and listen to Aspire with me, Emma Grede, available wherever you get your podcasts.