166: Trust and Be Wise. Psychology for the Fighting Man. Part Three.

0:00:00 - Opening 0:00:28 - 3rd Part: Psychology for the Fighting Man. 2:39:08 - Final thoughts and take-aways. 2:42:000 - Support: How to stay on THE PATH. 3:03:24 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 166 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening. And we are rolling straight into part three, podcast number three of the Psychology for the Fighting Man, What You Should Know About Yourself and Others. So if you haven't listened to the previous two podcasts, they're about this same book and there's so much information that we split it up because it was going long. And this part, these couple of sections here are really what I was originally going to cover, but then I figured I'd cover it all.

• 0:41Jocko Willink?

  And next thing you know, this turned into a three podcast series. Cool. And this section is called The Soldier's Personal Adjustment. And here we go, back to the book. In a democratic civilian army, millions of men are suddenly abruptly thrown into a new way of life. It is in many ways a tough life. Men used to going their own ways, choosing their own jobs, associates, neckties, times for going to bed, now have to follow military orders about all these things. Men accustomed to a comfortable litter of belongings around them find the bare neatness

• 1:25Jocko Willink?

  of policed barracks hard to get used to. Those used to steam heat, warm shower baths, and breakfast eggs cooked just three and a half minutes at home may be pretty uncomfortable when they have to put up with a bed on the ground and cold water for shaves. There is moreover, no privacy in the army. If a man oversleeps and his corporal dumps him out of his bunk, the whole company knows about it. If he looks at his girl's photograph a lot, they know that too. The business of living in a goldfish bowl and having to take razzing from his fellow soldiers is about the hardest thing for a sensitive recruit to get used to.

• 2:09Jocko Willink?

  That's a fact. So here we go. These are all just welcome to the military. You're gonna, you're not gonna get to eat what you wanna eat. You're not gonna get to sleep when you wanna sleep. You're not gonna get to keep what you wanna keep. Think about those are personal freedoms that everybody cherishes. They're all gone. Even your privacy. When you get to, when I went to Navy boot camp, you go in the bathrooms, there's just stalls, there's no, I'm sorry, there's just toilets, there's no stalls. You just sit down next to everyone else and do your business.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:40Jocko Willink?

  The privacy is gone.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:44Jocko Willink?

  Not every man, of course, meets hardships for the first time when he goes into the army. Some have known hunger and cold and hard work. Some never saw a flush toilet or a shower bath before they got to camp. Some never had a good square meal, well cooked. For them, the army is providing luxuries. That's true too. Not probably, it's definitely not as true now.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:07Jocko Willink?

  As it was in 1942. Cause in 1942, some people were still living out in the bush here in America. And there's a lot less people still living in the bush in America now. They're still out there though. But farmer, lawyer, banker, section hand, college man, or man of little schooling, they all must adjust themselves to an entirely new way of living, all must learn new habits. Young men may find it easier to make the adjustment than older men because they are ordinarily a little more flexible with habits a little less fixed. That's for sure.

• 3:39Jocko Willink?

  If you think you're gonna join the military at some point, join when you're as young as possible. No attachments. And I was so

• 3:48Jocko Willink?

  just dumb, I guess, for lack of a better word. I just didn't care about anything. When I came in, they're like, uh, you, we're gonna shave your head, we're gonna take all your civilian stuff. I'm like, whatever, take it away. I don't care. But most men can fit themselves into the new life and work without too much friction. Those who do not, those who do it most easily are the ones who accept the new life at once, throw off civilian habits with civilian clothes and put themselves wholeheartedly into becoming soldiers. One of the hardest adjustments come with a loss of contact with family and friends. The soldier who misses friends at home is slow about making new friends at camp. So there you go. If you are homesick, what you should do is make new friends.

• 4:30Jocko Willink?

  The army is liberal with furloughs as war permits for such homesick men when they first go into the service. But the real remedy is not in hurried trips home or long distance telephone calls. It is in building up of new interests and new ties in and around the camp.

• 4:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, when I left home, I left home. Like I was gone and just that was that. One of the fears that many men have to overcome or adjust to when they first go into the army is the feeling that they may lose their identity, their freedom of individual expression. From revelry to taps, there is little if any opportunity for the new recruit to do anything he is not told to do. Whether he wants to or not, he must get up at the sound of the bugle, put on the prescribed uniform, march when he is commanded, stand at attention when he is ordered and do so, even when with a mosquito biting him. No longer does he eat when he is hungry or go to sleep when he is tired. All conduct seems to be according to order. Is this really a fight for freedom and democracy?

• 5:34Jocko Willink?

  Of course it is, but conformity and discipline are necessary for the efficient operation of an army. And I will say this. It's only that strict during boot camp, I mean, for the most part during boot camp. That's when you really are, every movement that you make is based on what you're being told to do. Once you get into the fleet or out into the, into a battalion somewhere, it's definitely, it's not easier, but you do have more individual freedom.

• 6:05Jocko Willink?

  So you, some people, when I talk to a kid that's 16 and they are, that's what they're worried about. Well, you know, I really like to whatever. I like to surf and I don't want to give up surfing. You'll have time to surf if you're stationed somewhere, you know, join the coast guard because they're always stationed near the water, you know, there's an idea.

• 6:26Jocko Willink?

  Next, a soldier's worries. There is first, the fear of death. It is best met by accepting the possibility of death as a natural part of the job and by being careful not to lose a sense of proportion about it. Again, it's weird for me to read this book because that's if you would ask me that before I read this book, that's what I would have told you. What you have to do is be like, yeah, there's a chance I'm going to die. And if you're scared of that, you should try and get over it.

• 6:55Jocko Willink?

  And I think the sense of proportion, that's saying like, listen, okay, the world's not going to end if I die.

• 7:04Jocko Willink?

  No soldier is so important that he isn't justified in thinking the enemy is aiming every, oh, that's what they're talking about. This is the, the sense of proportion is no soldier is so important that he's justified in thinking that the enemy is aiming every bullet, bomb and shell at him. Besides, there are a great many men in the army and only a small proportion get hit in battle. And the greater part of those who get hit will live and get well-earned relief from the strain of combat. After that, there may be a purple heart decoration and some glory. This is when we're starting to lean a little bit towards propaganda. They're like, listen, you're probably not going to die, which that is true. And the, the amount of people that are in the military compared to the amount of people

• 7:47Jocko Willink?

  that go into combat, compared to the people that actually make contact with the enemy, compared to the people that actually get hit, it's a very small percentage. And if you do get hit, guess what? You've got some glory and a purple heart coming your way. Don't worry about it.

• 8:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like I said, this sometimes is leaning a little bit towards propaganda in a positive and truthful way. But you gotta, you gotta take it with a grain of salt, as they say. Back to the book and soldiers who have been through the worst of warfare are inclined to say that only a fool wants to live forever.

• 8:25Jocko Willink?

  They usually add the warning, but if you must die, make your death count for something. Don't throw your life away by taking needless chances. So that's the old, again, uh, some, some propaganda for you there. Hey, listen, man, only a fool wants to live forever. Let's go get some. And like I said, there is some truth to that.

• 8:52Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. Sensitive men may also worry or feel guilty over killing enemy soldiers, other men in action. Unless they understand this worry and face it squarely, they may head into trouble because killing is the main job of a combat soldier.

• 9:09Jocko Willink?

  This is something people tend to forget from time to time.

• 9:13Jocko Willink?

  The job of a soldier is to kill people.

• 9:17Jocko Willink?

  From the earliest childhood, American boys are taught that it is wrong, the greatest wrong, to kill. This principle is learned so early that it becomes part of them. As boys grow up, they forget most of what happened in infancy and early childhood. Few people, in fact, can remember much of what happened in their first three years. Yet they retain within themselves the attitudes formed during their earliest years. They don't remember ever learning them. It seems as if they always felt that way. If a man did not learn that it was wrong to kill until he was grown, he would learn it then with his mind. And he would be easy to lay aside that rule when war or emergency makes it necessary for him to kill.

• 10:01Jocko Willink?

  But the don'ts learned in earliest childhood become the voice of the conscience in the adult. They seem to be absorbed rather than learned. And even though his mind tells a grown man that the execution of criminals is justified, his emotions may rebel. Then if duty forces him to kill, he may go ahead and do it, but afterwards he'll feel a vague uneasiness and anxiety. His conscience won't rest. Some men strictly brought up may even get sick at the stomach at the sight of a limp, pathetic body of a rabbit that has been shot. The cure for the anxiety that results from this kind of conflict between conscience and reason is to understand it.

• 10:42Jocko Willink?

  Once a man realizes that the feeling is natural in men brought up as an average American to respect human life, this particular worry won't haunt him so much. He may have a few bad dreams, but that won't interfere with doing the job ahead, disagreeable, though it may be. Again, this is when we're trying to let people know.

• 11:06Jocko Willink?

  That hey, what you feel when you feel, oh, like I don't feel like I want to go kill people? That's okay. We get it. Here's why you feel that way. You feel that way because you've been told it since you were a little kid. But you have to bring your reason into the problem and logically calculate that it's okay to kill people.

• 11:26Jocko Willink?

  Tough. This is, this is, this is trying to tell a generation of American kids that they are going to go and fight and kill the enemy. That's what this is doing. And even letting them know, like, listen, you may have a few bad dreams. Right? And that is probably one of the most minor ways of explaining the fact that you are going to have freaking nightmares and cold sweats. And they're, they're downplaying that. But they're letting them know that that's what's going to happen. So this is, this is definitely a, a book called the psychology.

• 12:07Jocko Willink?

  Psychology for the fighting man, and they're trying to use some psychology here to get the guys in the right mindset where they can kill.

• 12:18Jocko Willink?

  Next, the healthy mind. To be at his best, a soldier must keep his mind fit as well as his body. He must be mentally alert and accurately aware of his surroundings. He must shoulder responsibility willingly.

• 12:35Jocko Willink?

  And accept the dictates of superior officers without resentment. That's interesting. They use the word resentment, not without question, but without resentment. He must be able to get along with other men without undue friction and with mutual pleasure.

• 12:53Jocko Willink?

  That's important. Undue friction. Like, there's going to be friction. You're working with other human beings. All other human beings are crazy.

• 13:00Jocko Willink?

  The marks of a man with healthy mind or personality are. And that's one thing this book continues to do well is it makes these little lists. So here's the marks of a man with a healthy mind or personality. One, he uses his abilities with enthusiasm and satisfaction, although not always with happiness or full contentment. Okay, so I might not be totally into this, but I'm going to get it done. In the best possible way. Two. He wants to do something worthwhile, to pull his load and not be carried by others. It's interesting how a lot of this stuff is in full alignment with some Jordan Peterson activities, some Jordan Peterson statements, right?

• 13:44Jocko Willink?

  Shoulder responsibility willingly. I think that's a, I think maybe Jordan read this book. It is a psychology book and he's like, maybe he read this book and started snatching good material from it. We're on to you JP.

• 13:58Jocko Willink?

  But yeah, and even this thing. Man wants to do something worthwhile. Jordan Peterson talks about that all the time. He gets along with other persons, including his superiors and those with whom he has a difference of opinion. Very important. How often is it we see people that I don't agree with your opinion, therefore I don't like you and I can't get along with you? So lame, so lame. I actually welcome people that have differing opinions than me because maybe they can teach me something. Maybe I can learn something from their viewpoint. Four. When he is disappointed or meets with deprivation or strain, he faces the situation with constructive ideas and a fighting spirit.

• 14:44Jocko Willink?

  Not with fear, rage, hopelessness, or suspicion.

• 14:50Jocko Willink?

  So then he does not suffer from indigestion, headache, or pain, which though not all, at all voluntary, may be produced by mental troubles.

• 15:05Jocko Willink?

  So that's how you meet like problems with a good attitude, not with fear, rage and hopelessness. Five, he perseveres in the effort to solve a problem or complete a task in spite of the difficulty and disappointment. Check perseverance. Six, he likes to give as well as take. Check. You ever known those kind of people that where they say that they can give, but they can't take?

• 15:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, those people aren't fun to hang around with.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  No, they're not.

• 15:37Jocko Willink?

  They never recognize it either.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then if you call someone on it like that, of course, it's denial, denial, denial in a defensive way, which is exactly what you're talking about.

• 15:47Jocko Willink?

  You, you are proving my point right now.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:53Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on, some break down mentally because they are just not fitted for army life. They never should have been inducted in the first place. Physicians at induction centers watch carefully for the signs of beginning mental illness, but nevertheless, some slip by and they actually go through a pretty good chunk explaining that. Just you're not gonna catch every person that's, that has a, a possibility of having some kind of a mental illness. So someone are gonna end up and you gotta be ready to deal with them. And those are the people that they say are foredoomed to develop a mental illness. But then there's people beyond them. And here we go. In addition to those men who seem foredoomed to develop a mental illness, there are other men who break in the army under

• 16:37Jocko Willink?

  battle conditions. These are real battle casualties, just as much as if they had lost a leg. So this is interesting because we hear all these people talking about PTSD and whatnot, as if it's new and as if it was unrecognized. This book is written in 1942.

• 16:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:54Jocko Willink?

  And they're saying, hey, somebody that suffers that kind of a stress under battle conditions, that's a casualty, just like losing a leg.

• 17:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:03Jocko Willink?

  So there you go.

• 17:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's the part that's kinda, well, seems anyway, new is that it's just as traumatic as the physical damage, you know, like.

• 17:14Jocko Willink?

  And like you said, it seems new.

• 17:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:16Jocko Willink?

  Right? It seems new, but this is World War II.

• 17:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:21Jocko Willink?

  And we just don't, we always have to learn the same lessons over and over again. Why is that? Why do we have to learn the same lessons over and over and over again? It's, it's a horrible reality. Back to the book. A man in battle may receive a blow on the head that will cause injury to the brain. That is serious, particularly if he is a leader responsible for the direction and safety of his men. This is an interesting point. Since the brain itself has no sense organs, a man does not feel pain when his brain is injured and may think he has not been badly hurt. This is how we end up with guys with TBI, with traumatic brain injuries, because they don't, your brain gets rocked around, but it doesn't, it's not like a bruise. It's not, it's not aching. I mean, you get a little bit of a headache. Once you, once you experience a big blast, like the next

• 18:05Jocko Willink?

  day, I wonder why I got a little headache. There's a reason for that. But even what seems like a slight wound in the head must be looked after carefully. Usually, the wounded man should be relieved from duty. If even a small part of his brain is hurt, or if his head has received a hard blow, which does not even crack the skull, nevertheless, he's likely to be confused or to act in a peculiar way in battle. So he's, I think it's funny. Hey, look, you got a blow that didn't even crack your skull. They're like, that's their, that's their assessment. It's, it can't be that bad. It didn't even crack your skull. Even a guy that didn't crack his skull, needs to get checked out, needs a little break. Back to the book. A direct blow on the head is not the only way a

• 18:46Jocko Willink?

  man's brain can be injured. The blast of a shell nearby can cause harm to the brain. Modern helmets, however, protect a soldier's ears and his brain very well. That's kind of rubbish. The, uh, how the, a helmet protects your ears, and our helmets obviously are even more modern than the World War II. Uh, steel helmet that they wore, at least ours are made of Kevlar now, that's not going to protect your ears. What we do have that protects your ears, though, is we wear, a lot of, a lot of people wear headphones, uh, for your radio, and they have noise cancelling headphones. So that, that does protect your ears.

• 19:25Speaker 01

  Is it the kind that like go over your ears or inside?

• 19:28Jocko Willink?

  They go over your ears. And there, there are ones that go inside your ears too, depending on what you like. But yeah, most of, most people are wearing noise cancelling headphones that go over both ears, and they pick up noise from the outside, and they, they mute down loud, really loud noises. Now,

• 19:49Jocko Willink?

  One thing that's, when you're wearing headphones, those headphones on both ears, you lose, there's something that you lose, there's a couple of things that you lose. You lose the ability to tell distance, how far away something is.

• 20:02Speaker 01

  And where it's coming from.

• 20:03Jocko Willink?

  And you lose the ability to tell where it's coming from. So, if you see pictures of like me, of Leif, of Stoner, most of the time, we have one ear on and one ear off.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  Huh.

• 20:14Jocko Willink?

  And, and sometimes people would ask, people see a picture, like, why don't you have your headphones on? Here's why. You wanna be able to hear direction, that someone's yelling for you, and you wanna be able to tell somewhat what the distance is.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:28Jocko Willink?

  And those things are just gone. When you have the noise cancelling headphones on.

• 20:33Speaker 01

  Is there noise cancelling kind that go in your ears?

• 20:36Jocko Willink?

  There are.

• 20:36Speaker 01

  And there's still noise cancelling?

• 20:37Jocko Willink?

  There are.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  Interesting. Yeah, the ones, the ones I have for shooting do that, you know, it has a little volume thing and, and also, I don't, I, I, obviously, I don't know exactly how they made them to work, but the, it's like when a gunshot goes off, it actually mutes everything. So if I'm talking to you, and you know, gunshot goes off like that, for that instant, you, you go off too, you know?

• 20:57Jocko Willink?

  That's the way it works.

• 20:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, and the deal, it, it's true, you don't know where it's coming from. So it could be over here, literally on the opposite side, you know? It's crazy.

• 21:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so for guys that are in the military, or in some kind of law enforcement, where you're, where you're wearing those headsets, just be advised. And I wouldn't go to the point where I'd cut that other headphone off. I would keep it, I'd just push it behind my ear and wear it that way all the time. That way, if I needed to, I could put both headphones on, cause you can also run, and this is another thing that's a, a challenge, in a leadership position, is you can run two different radio frequencies, one into each ear.

• 21:36Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 21:37Jocko Willink?

  And so when that's going on, then you got two voices coming in at the same time, talking about different things. And it takes a little bit of practice to get used to that. And actually, it's something that they say women are better at than men.

• 21:47Speaker 01

  Yes, they are.

• 21:48Jocko Willink?

  I've read a test, ha, ha, have you read that?

• 21:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I read some research about it, but women can listen to conversations easier than men can listen to conversations.

• 21:58Speaker 01

  But can they draw a bicycle?

• 22:00Jocko Willink?

  Well, we've been through this before.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  It was

• 22:02Jocko Willink?

  Risky, that's a risky conversation.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  It was the same study that, or it wasn't the same study, it was a presentation. It was like a video with the article. It was the same one that said about the drawing the bike thing as the carry on two conversations or multitask in certain ways where it requires concentration, all this stuff. Yes, they are. Yeah, that's interesting. That's why like my wife can literally be on the phone and like watch a TV show that you have to follow, you know, like do that kind of stuff. And I'm like, bro, you can't watch this show and be like shopping for curtains at the same time, you know, like either we're watching this show or we're shopping for curtains kind of thing, but they can do that.

• 22:40Jocko Willink?

  So they have a little advanced skill there. So the modern helmets, they don't protect, they don't protect your head from shell blast at all, even our helmets today, they don't. Going back to the book, besides these direct injuries to the brain, men in battle can suffer shocks to the mind. Every man has his limit mentally as well as physically. There are strains which no man, however tough minded, minded can endure. Modern battle has pushed closer and closer to these final limits of man's endurance. Grueling hardships, great fatigue, prolonged loss of sleep, blistering heat, intense cold,

• 23:23Jocko Willink?

  high altitudes, great pressures below the sea. These are all conditions that put a dangerous strain on the mind as well as body.

• 23:33Jocko Willink?

  When a man goes through these things and then in addition, suffered the strain of seeing his friends killed, of being in constant peril of his own life, of dealing out death with his own hands, there may come a time when the strongest man's mind will sicken.

• 23:54Jocko Willink?

  Such a sufferer from war shock is not a weakling, he is not a coward, he is a battle casualty. If given psychiatric first aid promptly, he will probably recover to take his place again in the battle unit. If neglected, however, he may become permanently ill or may even seek relief of his mental wounds in death.

• 24:20Jocko Willink?

  So, again, this is 1942 and we still hear information about this nowadays like it's a revelation. And it's not. And, you know, people trying to seek relief by committing suicide, that's what they're saying here. You seek relief from mental wounds in death. What is that? That's suicide. And also, and I think to me, it's always Dick Winters that always, I always get reminded that he's the guy that would say, "Look, if you've got a guy that's getting close, you pull him off the battle line and you let him recover and he'll be fine. If you don't pull him off the battle line, he's gonna break, he's gonna be no good." The red, it's the engine, it's the, it's the engine, the car engine running in the red.

• 25:05Jocko Willink?

  If the car engine is running in the red, you need to get it to a service station and get that thing serviced. Give it a little breather and then it'll be fine. If you get an engine running in the red and you keep running it, guess what's gonna happen? You're gonna blow out the engine. It's gonna be done. It's gonna be ruined.

• 25:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's kinda like when you kinda go down that, that path, when you think about it. You know, people who commit suicide just in general, you know, it kinda is like, kinda gotta think about that, like they were probably in one way or another injured, right? In their brain, whether it be, you know, for one, you know, by one way or another.

• 25:39Jocko Willink?

  I think you just, you can't just, when you say injured, we're not just talking about physical injury. We're talking about whatever, stress, massive amount of stress, death, all, seeing all this mayhem and chaos.

• 25:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:52Jocko Willink?

  Yes. So, yeah, they, they have seen, you gotta assume that someone that gets there in these cases has seen something that's so bad or suffered through something that's so bad that they seek relief from these mental stresses in death.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, so even like a like a non military person where you know, like it's common for people to be like, oh, you took the easy way out. The coward kind of thing, right? He committed suicide kind of thing. But if you do really hundred percent regard it as an injury, just like your arm or your leg or something like that, it's kind of like it. It seems like a little bit more understandable almost.

• 26:34Speaker 01

  Rather than calling them a coward outright.

• 26:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I'm I'm not. I'm not sure about that. I think that. I think that the most important thing is to recognize that if someone hurts their arm. And they keep going on it, their arm is not going to get better. Right? Someone breaks their leg and they keep running on it, their leg is not going to get better. And if someone's got a got some massive amount of stress that causes a mental injury. Physical, mental injury or mental, psychological, mental injury, either one of those. If they don't take a break and get some help and get some relief. Then it's going to not work. It's going to break completely.

• 27:20Jocko Willink?

  And then they get to a point where this is what we talk about when we talk about being in a cloud and everywhere you look around, there's nothing but cloud and you think you're stuck in this storm and there's no way out. That's where you end up. And you know, I I think Peter Tia posted an article about a young woman who killed herself. And I wrote something in response on social media. Something like.

• 27:47Jocko Willink?

  That's horrible to see. Especially I think I think I wrote something along the lines of, hey, that's horrible to see, especially with so many people that are fighting to live. You know, you think about people that have cancer or whatever. And someone wrote back to me.

• 28:03Jocko Willink?

  You don't understand mental illness. You know, you don't understand depression. And like I responded back and I said, and then he kind of said, you know, it's not like that. And I said, you're right. I don't like, I don't under, I don't, I'm not a psychologist. I don't fully understand what it's like to have this going on. And it's the same thing when, when Chris Cornell from Soundgarden killed himself. And I happened to be on Joe Rogan's podcast the next day. And we started off the podcast, we were talking about it. And you know, it's the same thing because what Joe Rogan and I are saying, and, and we're not psychologists. We're saying it's gotta be hard to dig out of that, you know? Go, go swing a kettlebell, go do something active, which to somebody that's got massive depression,

• 28:47Jocko Willink?

  that just sounds idiotic, but to, to Joe Rogan and I, who get a lot of satisfaction out of swinging kettlebells and doing jujitsu, it's like, that sounds like a decent idea.

• 28:56Speaker 01

  Right. It sounds like relief.

• 28:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And so, hey, I, I, that's, you know, of course you, I, should I caveat that statement with, hey, man, I'm not a psychologist. I don't really know. When I feel like I, when I feel like there's darkness in the world, I really like to do something physical. Tim Ferriss said the same thing. Get out of your mind, get into your body. Like, okay, so the, you have those conversations and you think,

• 29:25Jocko Willink?

  this is what I think. I can't change what I think. You know why? This is what I think. Someone could change my mind and someone could educate me, sure. But I'm just making a statement, hey, man, that's horrible to see. It's horrible to see, especially when there's people that have cancer or whatever, and they're fighting as hard as they can to stay alive. And someone else that doesn't have any diseases decides, you know what? I'm gonna take my own life. I'm gonna kill myself. That's horrible to see. That's my statement. Yeah. And someone, you don't understand this. I'm like, no, I don't. That's part of my point is no, I don't understand this. And so I, I will say this.

• 30:07Jocko Willink?

  I've seen how fragile the mind can be. And really, I should, I should rephrase that, how fragile the mind is. Because I've seen people that seem to be going down a good path. And, and all of a sudden, out of nowhere, that path is they're gone. And, and that's like shocking. So, one thing, I guess, I, I, the part that I understand is that I don't understand it. And it's hard for me to relate to that. It's hard for me to understand and say, wow, I could have seen that coming. No, actually, I couldn't have seen that coming at all, at all.

• 30:44Jocko Willink?

  So, the interesting, the most interesting thing about this to me is this book is from 1942. And it's talking about the same things that we're apparently still discovering right now. Like that sometimes you need to break from combat. Like that when you come home, you might be a little bit, you might have some nightmares.

• 31:05Jocko Willink?

  Like that if you break mentally, it doesn't mean that you're a weakling. And, and Band of Brothers does a great job of that. The one character who's a total badass through, and all of a sudden, he just can't take anymore. And they go, okay, no problem. And Dick Winters talks about it. And he says, yeah, we, no one lost any respect for that guy. The guy took his risks. He did a great job and then he couldn't do it anymore. And David Hackworth describes it as, hey, you, people have a cup. And the cup gets filled up. And when it's filled up, it's filled up. You can't put any more in there. You can't put any more combat in there. And it's not, some people have a bigger cup than other people. It's no disrespect. It's not, it's not a negative statement. It's just that's the way it is.

• 31:49Jocko Willink?

  So, if someone gets in these bad situations, what in my opinion, you have to do is take a break, get someone to help, get someone to talk to about it that can help you find your way out of the storm. And that's what I realized from, from the times we've had, speaking of, of Jordan Peterson, the times that we've, the first time we had him on here.

• 32:11Jocko Willink?

  I had never really spent any time thinking about psychology as an actual possible thing in the world. You know what I mean? It just kind of seemed like voodoo to me, right? And then when he was talking through some of the psychological protocols that they use to come over particular, to overcome particular psychological issues. I was like, oh, okay. So this basically is like a car mechanic, right? You come in with to me and you've got this problem with your car. Cool. This is what we're gonna do. To fix that problem with your car. And so there's a certain amount of psychology that was revealed to me from Jordan. As like, oh yeah, this is when you have this situation, this is what you do to heal it.

• 32:54Jocko Willink?

  And so it's important, that was kind of a that was a revelation to me, not like a revelation that changed my world, but it was for me. Psychology was just always kind of voodoo. That's what it seemed like to me looking at it from the outside. And I'm an ignorant person, right? Seriously, I'm an, I'm kind of an ignorant person. I, I I graduated high school, I grew up in the, I grew up in the military. I spent all my time around a bunch of other knuckleheads like me. It's like you're not talking this vast, with this vast experience of all these different data points of the world. It's like, no, I'm just a guy who never really dealt with psychology before. So for me, I just looked at, oh, it's just some weird people laying on a couch. You know, what I learned from the movies?

• 33:40Jocko Willink?

  And so I didn't see the benefit of, hey, oh, they actually have identifiable problems that they can see, and then they have protocols to overcome those. So if someone is out there and they're caught in this storm, whatever that storm may be. If you go to one of these brain mechanics. If they would have called it brain mechanic, I would have understood it. Go to a brain mechanic, they're called a psychologist. Go to a brain mechanic and say, hey, this is the problem that I'm having right now. Can you give me a tune up? And the brains, the brain mechanic will say, yep, here's the protocol. I want you to do this. I want you to write down this. I want you to talk about this. And that's what they do.

• 34:25Jocko Willink?

  Mental danger signals back to the book. Mental first aid is just as important as physical first aid for preventing casualties and losses to the service.

• 34:34Jocko Willink?

  If in 1942.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:38Jocko Willink?

  If a man can be relieved of duty for a time, given a rest when he needs it urgently, he can usually be counted upon to come back to the combat presently. With fresh zest and vigor. If however, he's allowed to go on past his mental breaking point without let up. If he is permitted to wait until he collapses or until the urgency of his needs makes him go on sick call voluntarily, the chances are much smaller for his rapid recovery. Check out World War One, shell shock, and that's what you end up with. Guys that are mentally destroyed by the horror that they see and the unremitting, nonstop presence of this horror. You have to give guys breaks if they need it.

• 35:24Jocko Willink?

  Next, the first thing to look for is anything that makes a man stand out in an awkward way from the others in his unit. Anything that makes him look odd to the other men marks him as not belonging. Does he stay by himself too much? Does he go for long periods without speaking? Is he known to other men as having strange ideas? Does he find conditions intolerable that other men get along? Under all right. Is he a problem in the outfit, refusing certain foods, wetting the bed, following strange or peculiar practices? Does the sergeant regard him as peculiar? Another thing to look for is any sudden change in the soldier's own personality.

• 36:06Jocko Willink?

  If he is a man who has been in the outfit for a while, it's easy to, it's easy to note a complete reversal of habits or attitudes. When the ordinarily cheerful man becomes moody and depressed. When the quiet orderly soldier becomes boisterous and noisy and a disciplinary problem. When the neat, well groomed man becomes dirty and disheveled. Lets his shoes go unshined, his uniform unbuttoned, his hair uncombed. When the dependable man goes AWOL and starts drinking hard. These are signs to look for for mental trouble. They should be looked into. The guardhouse may not be any help at all. Sometimes it makes things even worse, worse. So just because someone starts getting in trouble. Hey, you know what we're gonna do? Throw him in the brig.

• 36:49Jocko Willink?

  It's not gonna make things any better. In fact, it could make things worse.

• 36:54Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, when a man has been through a particularly trying experience in combat without relief for a long period, under steady bombing or gunfire without protection, cut off from other troops, or lost at sea, more acute signs of war nerves may show up. All men should know that these signs are the natural result of fear and war strain. They do not mean that a man has gone insane, but they do mean that he needs care, rest, medical attention, and mental first aid. And here's some signs of that. Here's some signs of severe stress. Inability to sleep, terrible nightmares in which the battle is repeated over and over, inability to eat, buzzing or humming in his ears, shakiness, general weakness, weakness

• 37:36Jocko Willink?

  in certain parts of his body as the knees or the wrists, dizziness, peculiar feelings in the heart fluttering, pounding, skipping a beat, difficult breathing, relentless combined restlessness combined with a feeling of being penned in, an overwhelming desire to push people and walls out of the way.

• 37:55Jocko Willink?

  Rest is the principal cure for these indications of war nerves.

• 38:01Jocko Willink?

  Rest and the care of a medical man who understands such cases and an understanding on the part of the soldier of what is wrong with him. These feelings are natural enough for anyone who's gone through the difficult conditions of combat, but they are very frightening to a man who does not expect them, even more distressing than the shells or bombs or torpedoes themselves. This is when it's important to understand what's happening. If you don't know why you're shaking, if you don't know why you can't sleep at night, if you don't know why you can't eat, or why you feel weak, like why there's ringing in your ears. If you don't understand why those things are happening, you it's going to be worse for you. It's just unexpected, it's unknown, and we're afraid of the unknown.

• 38:44Jocko Willink?

  Officers who understand these matters can do a great deal to relieve the men's fears of war nerves and to prevent them by their own calm recognition of the fact of nerves and their costs. So, hey, officers like, hey, man, look, you just got you, you've been out here for a little too long, we're going to give you a little breather.

• 39:03Jocko Willink?

  How the mind protects itself. The body has defense mechanisms, so has the mind. Touch a piece of hot metal and instantly you have withdrawn your hand before you know what you are doing. If something flies towards your face, you shut your eyes without stopping to decide how to close them. These are natural means for self-protection. When the mind is attacked by unpleasant ideas, dangerous fears, it too has a way of withdrawing or of turning away and shutting out what cannot be endured. When you see a man of ordinary good common sense become strangely blind to facts, refuse to believe that his lost brother has really been killed, or refuse to see that he himself is to blame for a disastrous failure, that man's mind is automatically protecting itself from a truth so bitter that he can't take it.

• 39:47Jocko Willink?

  Little bit delusional. It might be dangerous, even were it possible, to convince a man of the actual facts. He might, if compelled to face them, commit suicide. That has happened more than once.

• 40:02Jocko Willink?

  An obstinate refusal to accept the truth on the part of a man of ordinary good judgment is a danger signal. Just as a fever of 103 degrees is a signal of a serious physical danger. Don't try to argue with such a man. He should be given a rest or a furlough from the duty and the strain. It is apparent that the mind is hard hit. When he is fit again, he will be able to see clearly once more. He will rid himself and go back to normal. Just as the fever patient does when his temperature goes back down. But it is only when the mind's natural protective mechanisms are used to an excessive or unreasonable extent that they point to a sick or exhausted mind.

• 40:45Jocko Willink?

  Every normal man uses them daily to some extent. This is the way they work. And this goes through a bunch of things that we all do.

• 40:56Jocko Willink?

  On a daily basis, normal people. To deal with things. One, passing the buck. You see this every day when a man fails or is humiliated. He can shrug it off or freely admit it is his own fault. If the failure is trivial and did not mean much to him, or if he has strong character. If the failure is a great personal tragedy. All but the man of an extraordinary strength of character will try to put the blame on someone or someone else. Someone or something else. The man who thus fails will seize upon any plausible excuse. He blames the weather.

• 41:40Jocko Willink?

  The man who gave him wrong advice, or the man who got in his way. Sometimes he may even imagine a plot against himself and persuade him that everybody is down on him.

• 41:53Jocko Willink?

  Humiliation and defeat are hard to bear. Instinctively, every man wants to try at once to get out from under when blame hangs over him.

• 42:04Jocko Willink?

  Habits of good sportsmanship usually prevent him from doing so, but still in his own mind or among friends, he will say, but it wasn't my fault. That's an amazing section. Obviously, directly related to the idea of extreme ownership. The fact that it's only a man of extraordinary strength of character who will take the blame. That's the only, that's the only person. Everyone else is gonna, and what's, I think what's important about this is to recognize that we all subconsciously know this. So, when you screw something up and you go, well, you know, we didn't get the supplies we were supposed to get and that's why we failed.

• 42:50Jocko Willink?

  Everybody knows that that's a little character flaw you got right there just shined through. Yep. That's what's going on. Yeah. Right? It's a little character flaw and you hear it all the time. Yeah. It's so obvious to everyone when you're making an excuse.

• 43:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:09Jocko Willink?

  Well, it. No one believes your excuse. No one believes your excuse.

• 43:14Speaker 01

  Even if everyone's making an excuse.

• 43:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, doesn't matter. It's still the subconscious.

• 43:20Speaker 01

  Everyone, let's say me, you, I don't know, Leif, there's a bunch of people in a room and we're all making excuses. It almost seems like each individual guy would be like, oh, they're making excuses. Meanwhile, like they're not thinking, oh, I'm making excuses too, you know?

• 43:37Jocko Willink?

  It's a scary thing. And what's cool is as soon as someone goes, hey, you know what? This is actually my fault. Other people go, oh, man, I need to say that too, because I screwed some stuff up.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's all, it's kind of like, you ever, you ever been in like a big meeting? And it kind of goes off the rails a little bit.

• 43:57Speaker 01

  You have, okay, good.

• 43:58Jocko Willink?

  Wait, have you ever been in a big meeting? Or is your big meeting with like your wife and your, and your two kids?

• 44:05Speaker 01

  Believe me, that's a huge meeting.

• 44:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  The, and then, you know, let's say it goes off the rails and people start like essentially raising their voice, maybe not yelling, but you know, and now everyone's talking, you can't hear what anyone's saying, right? But everyone's voicing their opinions essentially just, just a little bit more passionately, right? But you can't hear anybody, what anyone's saying, right? You know, that happens a lot. So it's kind of the same concept because even when you are not saying anything, everyone else is talking. You're compelled to be like, be quiet, but oh, what'd you just do right there? You just added to the noise with the thing rather than like handling it kind of consciously and be like, okay, I'm not going to add to the noise. I'm gonna be quiet.

• 44:47Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 44:49Jocko Willink?

  Taking ownership is contagious and making excuses is contagious. They're both contagious. And they'll both run rampant and wild until you put a check on them. The good thing, the good news about that is taking ownership is the stronger power. So if you, if someone in that group starts to take ownership, that, that

• 45:11Jocko Willink?

  virus will spread stronger than the excuse making virus.

• 45:19Jocko Willink?

  Okay, the next thing that people do is the false front. When a man is worried by the fear, perhaps only half consciously, but deep in his heart, that he has serious, that he has a serious fault or weakness, what does he do? He puts up a great show of being just the opposite sort of person. If the man is stupid or ineffective, yet feels the need to be strong and sure, he will overdo his efforts to impress people. He will be loud and boisterous and cocky.

• 45:48Jocko Willink?

  The timid person may do foolhardy stunts, seeking to prove his bravery. The man who is really courageous, strong and manly seldom feels any need to demonstrate it. He just takes himself for granted. So there's a bunch of, obviously, we see this all the time. People are insecure about the way they do something. They try and give the false front that they're great at it.

• 46:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. I remember when I was young and I bleached my hair blonde. Did it a few times, by the way.

• 46:20Jocko Willink?

  That's interesting.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, and it wasn't like super long or nothing like this, but it was just, and it was a girl who said, "Hey, you just do that for attention." And I'm thinking to myself, "I don't, like, I don't do it for attention," you know?

• 46:38Jocko Willink?

  And then you thought to yourself, "More."

• 46:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, then, you know, it kind of sticks with you, like, "Am I doing it for attention? I'm not realizing it kind of thing?" And then something, you know, you go around and around in your head. You're like, "Then why did I do it?" You know? Do, did I like, like, how it specifically looked? Because it does stand out. I knew that from the beginning.

• 46:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. What age is this?

• 46:57Speaker 01

  Uh, twenty, twenty.

• 47:00Jocko Willink?

  Twenty?

• 47:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:02Jocko Willink?

  Twenty-one?

• 47:03Speaker 01

  Maybe, yeah, like twenty, I'd say.

• 47:05Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  So, ninety-seven, yeah, twenty. So, anyway, so after you think about it, you're like, "Yeah, because, you know, I like how it looked at the time and..."

• 47:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wanted people to sort of look, you know.

• 47:20Jocko Willink?

  So then what did you do?

• 47:23Speaker 01

  I don't know, nothing.

• 47:24Jocko Willink?

  You didn't, you kept?

• 47:24Speaker 01

  I admitted it to myself. Yeah, yeah, I kept it. And then, yeah, yeah.

• 47:28Jocko Willink?

  There's a lot of, uh, there's a lot of wrestlers, like the high school wrestlers.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 47:33Jocko Willink?

  They do that. There's whole teams.

• 47:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:35Jocko Willink?

  Whole teams. Everyone's got their hair bleached blonde.

• 47:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:39Jocko Willink?

  There's a level of arrogance with wrestling.

• 47:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:43Jocko Willink?

  Like, like, well, yeah, like self-confidence, like, hey, I'm gonna.

• 47:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 47:46Jocko Willink?

  Gonna make this happen. And it's, it's a psychological game, right?

• 47:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:51Jocko Willink?

  I'm not scared of you. Look at me. I'm, I actually bleached blonde my hair. Look at me.

• 47:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:56Jocko Willink?

  Cause I'm about to stick you on the mat.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay, so other than semantics, is there a difference between the expression, I want attention or I'm doing it for attention versus I'm doing it to stand out?

• 48:09Jocko Willink?

  I think those are the same.

• 48:10Speaker 01

  Same, right?

• 48:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 48:11Speaker 01

  But one kind of sounds more like kind of superficial.

• 48:14Jocko Willink?

  Yes, yes.

• 48:16Speaker 01

  You just want attention.

• 48:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 48:17Speaker 01

  No, I'm doing it to stand out. You know, I want to stand out. That's a good thing to stand up, you know?

• 48:21Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's a, not a great argument.

• 48:23Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, that's what I'm saying.

• 48:25Jocko Willink?

  Being, being, hey, I just want to stand out.

• 48:29Jocko Willink?

  That's the most positive possible way of saying, I just want attention.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:34Jocko Willink?

  Which is what you want.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, cause if you say, I want to stand out, cause you can, um, like, try to stand out or pursue standing out as a good thing for a good reason, you know, like, I want to stand out. I want my business to stand out. I want my X, Y, Z thing to stand out. So, you know, so people, I don't know, sign on or whatever. But if you're like, I want to do it for attention, it just sounds like I just want the attention. Like, that's what I want. That's the end goal, the attention. That's what it feels like when you say it, even though they're sort of the same thing. They are the same.

• 49:05Jocko Willink?

  I was playing soccer when I was a kid.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  Hell, yeah.

• 49:09Jocko Willink?

  And my dad, my parents were school teachers.

• 49:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:14Jocko Willink?

  There aren't not a lot of money in school teaching. And we, my dad, I needed a pair of cleats. So I'm probably eight years old. And my dad goes to the sporting goods store, digs into the, the bin of leftovers, second hand, whatever. And he gets, and the pair of cleats that fit me is white. It's a pair of white cleats. This is nineteen, whatever, seventy-eight. There's no one with white cleats. This is not, everyone has black cleats. So I go to the soccer game. And like I said, I think. With your white cleats?

• 49:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, my cleats. Yeah, they were the cheap, they were in the bargain bin, right? It wasn't like my dad on the school teacher's salary was like, hey, which pair do you want from the Adidas rack over here? No, you're getting the, the new buck. You know what that is? No. It's like fake leather, you know, so you're just getting the fake leather, plastic cleats, they're white, whatever. But I was out on the soccer pitch. And I think I wanna say I scored a goal. I think.

• 50:29Jocko Willink?

  And as I was running back, uh, like a dad from the other team. Said something like, you know, you think you're the big star now with those white cleats? I don't know if he was being nice. Possibly he might have been being nice. It didn't sound like it to me at the time. I think that right there was like the beginning of me thinking. I don't wanna be the guy that's dying their hair bright blonde at twenty-one years old. Twenty, but. Yeah, you said maybe twenty-one.

• 51:06Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna be, you think you're gonna be the big star now? He said something with those white cleats. It was something like that. I'm, I can't remember very much from my childhood. Yeah. That I remember. You remember when you were playing like the, this is not some big soccer, you know, they got kids playing soccer now. They got. They're looking like a professional soccer team. No, this is, you remember them things you had when you were a little kid, the yellow shirt? That was like elastic around the bottom and you just put it on over your other shirts. It was like the yellow team versus the other team. It was one of those things, right? We're not talking high level. We're not talking high level soccer playing.

• 51:42Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 51:42Jocko Willink?

  We're talking yellow jersey yellows against the regular kids.

• 51:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, what they call intramural.

• 51:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  Something like this.

• 51:49Jocko Willink?

  There I was with the white cleats on and I remember thinking that guy thinks that I'm trying to make a spectacle out of myself. And he didn't say, nice goal.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 51:58Jocko Willink?

  He said, oh, you think you've got some nice cleats.

• 52:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. Were you celebrating all hard or something or you just?

• 52:03Jocko Willink?

  No, running back. I was running back.

• 52:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, he was hating.

• 52:08Jocko Willink?

  I'm trying to think of when I celebrated hard. Cause that's something that that's something I I remember a couple of times in my life, celebrating hard and being like, man, that was a bad move. And again, it's probably the same age group, you know, like, yeah, it's weird.

• 52:22Speaker 01

  Man, that's that's kind of deep, though, where where that the, cause it's the opposing team's dad or, you know, somebody on their.

• 52:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 52:29Speaker 01

  Cause yeah, I wonder, right? Cause there's two things that he could be. He was hating regardless. He was like mad, you know, he sort of go obviously, but was he like, oh, you think you're the big shot now like hating on?

• 52:40Jocko Willink?

  That's what I heard.

• 52:41Speaker 01

  You're cool. Or was he hating like on a deeper level where he was like, oh, you think you're a big shot? Oh, but look here, they suck kind of thing. Was he saying that?

• 52:49Jocko Willink?

  The way I interpreted it, it was, he was saying, you think you're special? Cause you've got those white cleats on.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, like.

• 52:57Jocko Willink?

  He didn't know that them are the only cleats that got afforded.

• 53:00Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 53:00Jocko Willink?

  Cause my dad's a notoriously cheap guy. My dad, we could tell stories about my dad all, all 10, 15 podcast worth of penny pinching. Coming from the old man.

• 53:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 53:12Jocko Willink?

  So you weren't getting these normal cleats.

• 53:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:14Jocko Willink?

  These are bargain bin cleats. So that's what we're talking about.

• 53:18Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 53:21Jocko Willink?

  Number three, taking it out on the dog. The man who suffers injury and is not strong enough to hit back may literally take it out on the dog. Or may go around looking for trouble with someone else he can talk back to or punch in the in the nose. Yeah, check.

• 53:37Jocko Willink?

  Here's one borrowed virtue. A more constructive or helpful sort of mental protection mechanism is this action of a man who feels weak or inadequate by himself and who gains a feeling of strength and superiority by attaching himself to a stronger man or a strong group.

• 53:55Jocko Willink?

  It was this that sent so many men to the recruiting stations on the morning after Pearl Harbor. As a man alone, you feel powerless in the face of threatening dangers. As a United States soldier, you know you can go anywhere in the world, avenge wrongs and protect your treasured way of life. So that there's a positive way that we we we roll.

• 54:17Jocko Willink?

  Number five, a sick call. When your mind is called upon to face something you dread terribly, your body may come promptly to your rescue. The aviation student who really dreads to go up for his first solo, feeling sure he is going to crack up his plane, may develop a convenient but real headache on that day. Yeah, you see that happen, right? Oh, feel good. It used to happen with little kids, too. First jujitsu tournament, I think I'm sick. First whatever, you know, first basketball game, I don't feel good. Shut up, you feel fine.

• 54:58Jocko Willink?

  Moving on, the war within the man. It might be much easier to defeat the enemy if men could only win in some way the conflicts that very often go in, go on within themselves.

• 55:17Jocko Willink?

  A man so, this is, this is where we go dichotomy. The new level of dichotomy, digging in right here. A man so often wants to do two opposite things at the same time. And he wants desperately to do both. He wants to dominate other men and yet be liked by them.

• 55:38Jocko Willink?

  He wants to give vent to his anger, but he doesn't want to get in hot water. He wants to gain promotion, but he doesn't want to do all the hard work. Above all, he wants to be a brave and true soldier to keep the soldier's faith. And yet he wants to live. How to be brave and safe? That is the greatest psychological problem for the soldier. Most of the war neurosis, mental illness in parentheses, result from the failure of men to find any sort of satisfactory way out of that dilemma. Every man is equipped with two kinds of the deep seated desires or instincts.

• 56:18Jocko Willink?

  Often, these two conflict. One set has to do with his relations with other men. He wants to be one of the gang, appreciated and admired by others. And he even likes to sacrifice himself for the good of the group to which he belongs, whether it is his family, church, army, or nation. But he also has another set of desires that cannot ever be entirely denied. Desires connected with himself, his life, his comfort, his personal freedom.

• 56:47Jocko Willink?

  No amount of patriotic fervor can wholly kill or drown out the calls of the more personal instincts. Only a few rush to enlist with no misgivings. Most, for most men, there is some concern or distress in making the decision to leave home, family, and job in order to join the service of the country.

• 57:09Jocko Willink?

  A move to a war theater and an advance to close contact with the enemy usually brings a crisis in the battle within the soldier as well as in the battle against the enemy. When a man finds himself close indeed to death, then his instinct to self-preservation, one of the most powerful urges every normal man has, makes every fiber of his being protest against facing the danger. Yet his comrades, his officers, his country are all counting on him to do his bit. A pretty big bit, risking his own life, yet they are counting on him.

• 57:47Jocko Willink?

  If the personal instincts win the struggle, the man when contact with the enemy forces is made will run away or will surrender. If the social instincts prevail, then he is the stuff of which all good soldiers, all heroes are made. Most men who have traveled the hard path of army life up to the front lines, put up a good fight once they get there. For a few, so there you go, you either have guys that, okay, you know what, of course, I want to stay alive, but I'm going to be loyal to, to my country, my army, my team that I'm with and the guy to my left and my right. And so guess what? I'm going forward into the fray. The other that, that make the other decision are, well, you know what? I want to stay alive, so I'm going to run away.

• 58:32Jocko Willink?

  So there's two distinct types of behaviors. Most of the time it's, hey, we're going to put up the good fight. Occasionally it's a coward. And then this is the interesting one. For a few, however, this struggle ends in a stalemate, a compromise. That is what a war neurosis is, a compromise of this internal conflict. If a man goes on being torn by his conflicting desires, if he cannot bring himself to go forward, yet is too conscientious to give up, he will suffer from the type of neurosis characterized by anxiety. He finds he can no longer concentrate. He becomes confused. The expression on his face, his pulse rate, his rapid breathing betray the fierce battle going on with him, within him. He himself may not be fully aware of the cause of this terrible sense of fear and horror

• 59:17Jocko Willink?

  that seems to hang over him, yet he is in a way solving his problem. He is making himself too inefficient to continue to fight, yet giving himself so much suffering that his conscience cannot accuse him of taking the easy way out. Yet even so, he does not know that he is doing all this. His nervous system does it for him. The man who suffers in any of these ways is not to be blamed. He is not a coward. If he were, he would have no conflict. That's an interesting point. So if you're just a coward, you're just like, screw it, I'm out of here. But the guy that freezes up and gets so nervous, he doesn't want to run, but he doesn't want to go fight. He can't solve that conflict in his head. Back to the book, if he were, he would have no conflict.

• 1:00:01Jocko Willink?

  He would see to it that he was not at the front, but in a soft, safe job somewhere at a good distance. If necessary, he would desert, but he does not desert and still does not fight.

• 1:00:14Jocko Willink?

  He compromises with a difficult unpleasant alternative, one which he does not choose, but which his nervous system chooses for him. He cannot control it. The leader who lectures him balls him out or punishes him for neglect of duty is only to increase his trouble. On the other hand, coddling such men is a mistake too. So you can't go to, you gotta balance this. You can't go super hard on them, but you can't coddle them either.

• 1:00:41Jocko Willink?

  You need to balance this dichotomy. What they need is understanding help. The reassurance that comes from a firm but friendly attitude on the part of those who deal with them. They need the encouragement of assurance that such things happen to the best of men, but that men may get over such difficulties with aid. They need to be told that they will be helped by a good night's sleep, perhaps drug induced by the medical officer, by a good meal and by rest. And that then they will be expected to return to the fight and do their duty with the others.

• 1:01:16Jocko Willink?

  So that's a pretty interesting way of looking at it. And I would say, as I thought about that, think about how many, how much nervousness you feel. If you think about the nervousness is actually in its internal war between two decisions that you could be making, right? What should I do? Should I buy this new car or save the money? Right? Like, which one should I do? Well, I really want the car, but I know I should save money. You get this little internal, internal conflict and that's what the struggle is. You're not really actually nervous about buying the new car. You're not nervous about saving money. You're ner- you can't make a decision based on the two things that you want to make happen.

• 1:01:55Jocko Willink?

  So we get those little, I think it's if you, if you frame things up, if you're feeling stressed about something, if you frame up what is actually stressing you out, there's a good chance that what's actually stressing you out is you're just trying to figure out which decision to make.

• 1:02:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yep, that is true.

• 1:02:13Jocko Willink?

  And one thing that you can do is you can, if you play your card, if your brain plays the game out, you can be so, you can not make a decision.

• 1:02:21Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:02:21Jocko Willink?

  Because hey, you're just not making a decision.

• 1:02:24Speaker 01

  It's like that. It's crazy how they, I mean, that's the first I've heard anyone articulate that little bit. Cause bro, I'll get that in the most like stupid mundane things. So.

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  Okay, bear with me. So I'm unloading the dishwasher. So on this side of my kitchen, which is like, it's kind of a longer like kind of kitchen where so on this side, this is where pots go. And but it's not just pots, it's pots and then certain kind of little these little soy sauce dishes. And then on this side is like silverware and then there's like plates, right? So I'm unloading the dishwasher and I'm trying to be efficient. I'm not rushing, but I'm trying to be efficient. So I'm grab, I have like, you know, I get like maybe four dishes of sorts at a time. And so, but I look at what I grabbed and I get this feeling like, shoot, where do I go? Do I go here first?

• 1:03:22Speaker 01

  You know, and put away the pots first that I have in my hand or do I go over here? Because if I go over here, I can do that, you know, kind of thing. And I'm at this little conundrum. But I'm like, you know what I should do? And this is all just going on my head. It takes maybe like four or five seconds, but.

• 1:03:40Jocko Willink?

  No wonder you ain't making videos. You're there debating yourself about pots and pans and glasses and soy sauce dishes. Who has a soy sauce dish? Is that an actual thing?

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  Yes, it is.

• 1:03:50Jocko Willink?

  Come on, man.

• 1:03:50Speaker 01

  Bruh, and it's bad because this is li, I'm not exaggerating. This literally goes in my head and it's this micro little almost anxiety. It's not anxiety, but it's like, it's there. It's something. It's not like, not, you know, I'm not just like, oh, just making, taking action. I'm not doing that. I'm like literally standing there not doing anything, thinking about this stuff. So I'm like, okay.

• 1:04:10Jocko Willink?

  I'm glad you're not in a situation where you have to make actual decisions.

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 1:04:14Jocko Willink?

  That would be a problem.

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  If this is any indicator, it will be a problem. So I'm looking and I'm like, shoot, where should I go? Should I go this side? I said, no, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna put, put this whole side, the dishes that go on this side. I'm gonna put those back. I'm gonna grab stuff that all go on that side. Oh, wait, now I gotta take the time to put this back and search and grab other ones. I'm losing time. That's less efficient, given the point that I'm at right now. So I'm like, man. And then, you know, and then of course I'll just be like, yeah, whatever. I'll just kind of go. But the point is, Brad, that happens. It literally happens.

• 1:04:47Jocko Willink?

  If it happening, happening to you, Echo Charles, with dishes.

• 1:04:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I can imagine that other people feel it when there's actual decisions to be made.

• 1:04:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:57Jocko Willink?

  And just to wrap this whole thing up, and I don't want to talk about that anymore ever. But if you were smart, you would just organize your kitchen so that everything is located, co-located, all things that go from dishwasher go into this small area. So, think about that one.

• 1:05:12Speaker 01

  Well.

• 1:05:13Jocko Willink?

  Don't think about it for too long though, bro, because I don't want you to freaking stress out over it. Get anxiety.

• 1:05:18Speaker 01

  But that, a lot of those, like, he, he puts it in terms of like, inst- uh, two time kinds of instincts, right?

• 1:05:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:24Speaker 01

  Uh, what, social and.

• 1:05:25Jocko Willink?

  Social and, social and human survival.

• 1:05:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like, a, a big one, or a way to see it is like how you pointed out to me, like, the long game, you know, it's like, either you're playing the short game or the long game, so it's kind of like that. Like, there's, like, you, you had the example of the buying the car thing. That's a short-term versus long-term payoff situation. Most things are when you have that little conundrum, you know, like, you know, wait, I'm gonna eat this pot of brown, or this pan of brownies, but I want to eat those brownies because they're delicious, but I don't want to get, you know, you know, put on weight or whatever, you know, it's kind of the same thing, I want both, kind of thing, but, and they, uh, most of the time, I think, anyway, it sorts itself out to be a short-term versus long-term struggle.

• 1:06:04Jocko Willink?

  And I think the important thing here is that you can actually take this concept and apply it to meaningful decisions that human beings have to make.

• 1:06:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:11Jocko Willink?

  Not just soy sauce bowls and brownies.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  No, diet is a big one, diet is a big one.

• 1:06:18Jocko Willink?

  It's not a big one when you compare it to storming the beaches of Iwo Jima, just saying.

• 1:06:22Speaker 01

  I agree with that, yes, sir.

• 1:06:24Jocko Willink?

  And speaking of which, and this is where, this is, obviously, this is part here is probably written more directed at you. Back to the book, men differ greatly in their abilities to stand up under this internal personal conflict. Most men can come successfully through terrorizing experiences, revolting scenes, and exposure to death. War is older than history and all nations and tribes have resorted to it. So, even the terrorizing experience that you have.

• 1:06:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:55Jocko Willink?

  With the soy sauce bowls.

• 1:06:59Jocko Willink?

  Uh, that one's got, that's rough.

• 1:07:04Jocko Willink?

  Continuing, "The average soldier has conflicts but settles them himself with no one else the wiser. So he finds himself free to fight with his whole strength. On him, the average free soldier, victory depends." "Fortunately, the first contact with the enemy is the hardest. In seasoned troops, internal conflict diminishes. They have faced the worst and know it is not intolerable." "Even soldiers who have to retreat are not defeated if they have learned to conquer their own fears."

• 1:07:39Jocko Willink?

  That's a good one. "Even soldiers who have to retreat are not defeated if they have learned to conquer their own fears. They will advance to another time, having once won the fight with the inner man and having faced the reality of battle, finding it finding in it less terror and more opportunity for success than the green recruit could ever have believed possible."

• 1:08:06Jocko Willink?

  So, now we get to this section in the book. And like I said, this is the section that I actually wanted to cover, but we ended up covering this whole book over the course of three podcasts. And this section is called "Leadership."

• 1:08:23Jocko Willink?

  "You can't boss a brick. You can't even boss a dog unless the dog has been trained to obey and has formed habits of responding to commands. And before you can boss him, you must know what commands he will respond to. The famous seeing-eye dogs can do wonderful things to aid the blind, but both dog and master must first go through a period of training."

• 1:08:45Jocko Willink?

  So there you go. And now we get this. "Authority is not power."

• 1:08:53Jocko Willink?

  That's an epic statement. Listen to this. "No amount of legal authority over the grizzly bears of British Columbia would enable you to get yourself obeyed by them out in the woods."

• 1:09:08Jocko Willink?

  Men can be commanded only after they have acquired habits of obeying after and after their leader has learned to give them commands that make these habits work. All successful leadership thus depends on the habits of those who are to be led. The officer standing before his men is limited in the direct exercise of his authority by what the troops are able to get through their eyes and ears. So this is just interesting, you're gonna see in this opening section here, it's really leaning towards that traditional military idea of leadership. It's like, look, if you're trained correctly and I give you an order, you're gonna listen. And so that's, that's where this thing kind of starts off with. And as you probably can figure out, that's contrary to what I believe effective leadership

• 1:09:51Jocko Willink?

  to consist of, but it's talking about it. And even though I don't believe that's the most effective form of leadership, and a matter of fact, I know it's not the most effective form of leadership. That being said, it is a form of leadership and it is, it can be effective. It does work in many situations where it's like, look, I'm the boss, I'm the one that's writing the paychecks, I'm the one that's got the rank. And when I tell you to do something, you know, you're gonna get it done. And that is a normal sort of baseline rudimentary

• 1:10:26Jocko Willink?

  form of leadership. So it does exist. Back to the book, when authority is not obeyed, the fault may lie in the manner of speech of the leader, or else it may be that the men are in need of basic training. So it looks, say, look, if people aren't listening to you, it could be the way that you're talking to them.

• 1:10:45Jocko Willink?

  And now it starts to, but, and the reason I said this is starting off talking about type of leadership that I don't really find to be optimum at all, but you're gonna see that it starts to lead towards the type of leadership that I do believe to be effective. And they actually believe it to be the most effective too. So continue on. It is often said that a good leader knows how to handle his men. Actually, however, it is not possible for any leader to handle his men. It is himself that he handles. Then the men react to his deportment. And the way in which they react depends in turn on their habits of thought and action. So, that's a great statement.

• 1:11:29Jocko Willink?

  Being a leader, it's, it's, you don't handle your men, you handle yourself. You're the one that you need to handle. And then if you handle yourself correctly, the team will then react to the way that you handle yourself. So that, now we're starting to lean towards what I believe to be good leadership. That's leading by example. Next section, discipline. In an army, much of this training on which leadership depends is established by discipline. Discipline is training in the habits of attention and obedience. Without such habits, we might have a crowd or a mob, but not an army.

• 1:12:07Jocko Willink?

  It is quite possible to lead a mob, yet such leadership is uncertain, depending largely on the accidents of personal appearance and unfortunate timing. In an army, however, there have been many leaders of many ranks and they have been interchangeable. If a leader is killed, another must be ready to take his place and lead men.

• 1:12:29Jocko Willink?

  So, it's talking about discipline and this is talking about the traditional form of military discipline. Hey, there's a rank structure, you must be obedient. And, that is not the optimal type of discipline that I believe in. Which is, hey, we are a disciplined team, we have disciplined standard operating procedures. We understand what the mission is, we understand what the goals are. We are going to move in that direction with discipline. And the discipline is not imposed discipline that I impose on my team. It's discipline that they impose on themselves because they realize that it makes them more effective and more efficient and more likely to be able to accomplish the mission, which they believe in.

• 1:13:14Jocko Willink?

  Now it talks a little bit about learning obedience.

• 1:13:19Jocko Willink?

  And again, obedience to me is not something that I'm looking for for my team. It's not what I'm looking for. I'm not looking for obedience. I'm looking for people that know how to understand what the goal is and that are going to move towards the goal.

• 1:13:33Jocko Willink?

  The first requisite of command is attention. So you gotta get people to pay attention to you. That makes sense. What men do invariably and repeatedly is finally drilled into them, becomes for them second nature. They learn to perform acts or maneuvers in response to commands or orders because the command or order has always been accompanied by the act and the act by the command.

• 1:13:58Jocko Willink?

  Mere lecturing never trains men in action. At best, it makes them learn mere word sequences, except when the listeners already know enough about the required action to perform in imagination. Learning something new, in other words, requires participation. You don't learn to swim by taking a correspondence course. So yes, you have to drill people. You have to get it, make it second nature. That, that is true. And we do that in, we did that in the SEAL teams. They do that in the military. People know what they're gonna do. When they get shot at, they know what, from a certain direction, everyone knows what they're gonna do. And we drill it over and over and over again till you don't have to think about it. It's second nature.

• 1:14:35Jocko Willink?

  Unfortunately, bad habits, as well as good, can be learned. If on spoken command, men do not respond, then they are learning not to respond. Whenever they are ordered to do something they cannot do, they are learning to disobey. Military manuals embody this fact in a rule. Never give a command that you do not expect to be obeyed. Now, that's a brilliant statement, and I don't necessarily think it's a brilliant statement for the same reasons. But actually, pretty close. If you wait, if, if I'm looking at you and you're working for me and I say, hey, you need to get all this stuff moved by, by noon today, and I know there's no physical way for you to

• 1:15:15Jocko Willink?

  do it, I'm wasting it and I'm, I'm diminishing my authority over you because you're thinking, no, there's no way I can do that. So now you're definitely not going to do it. And the next time I say to get something done, you've got a, you've got a, already a preconceived notion that you don't really have to do it.

• 1:15:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:36Jocko Willink?

  So that's a great statement. If you're in charge, never give a command that you don't expect to be obeyed. Don't do it. Keep your mouth shut. Figure out something that can be done. Thus, a young leader, when he finds himself so situated that his command might be disregarded, must refrain from giving it. He must first try to change the situation, capture the attention, or he must merely wait until he is reasonably certain that when he gives his order, it will indeed be obeyed.

• 1:16:05Jocko Willink?

  So, makes sense. And now we get into the section called the leader. And this is now where we start to come towards the vision of leadership or the, the principles of leadership that I believe in.

• 1:16:23Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. A good leader does not depend solely on the authority that discipline gives him as an officer or non-commissioned officer. For good leadership goes far beyond discipline. A good, experienced leader inspires respect, confidence, and loyalty in his subordinates, all of which enable him to get from his men, performance far above what a new leader could command. So there you go. All this stuff that we just talked about, you got to train them, you got to have discipline, you got to make sure they're going to obey your orders, you got to teach them obedience, all that stuff is nothing compared to the power of respect, of loyalty.

• 1:17:04Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on, in this, the leader can rely on the generous cooperation of his men. For men have a natural longing to respect and have affection for their leaders. They want to be proud of their officers and non-commissioned officers, just as they want to be proud of their unit. And their branch of service. When the, when the new army was first being formed, many of the officers had little experience in command. They had learned the words, were capable of giving directions and instructions, but they had learned neither the action nor the manner that go with the command. A young officer would utter an order, but his manner would betray his lack of confidence.

• 1:17:45Jocko Willink?

  This uncertainty was in effect a signal for not carrying the order out promptly and effectively, as military orders must be carried out. All our lives, we have depended on the manner and behavior of others, as well as on their speech, to know what is in their minds. Army discipline cannot change human nature. What did Sarah Armstrong say? That 70% of conveyed message in a conversation is from

• 1:18:14Speaker 01

  Non-verbal.

• 1:18:15Jocko Willink?

  Non-verbal cues. That's massive.

• 1:18:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:18Jocko Willink?

  I wonder if that includes like tone?

• 1:18:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:22Jocko Willink?

  Or not? I don't think it does.

• 1:18:23Speaker 01

  Technically it wouldn't, right?

• 1:18:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, because that's a verbal cue. Yeah. So we know that whatever the number is, it's a massive amount. It's a massive amount that is conveyed by what your posture is, what your delivery looks like, what your countenance reads, all those things. And then let's include tone in it, right? Which the tone should be in there somewhere.

• 1:18:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:46Jocko Willink?

  If you're giving orders and you look like you don't know what you're doing, and you sound like you don't know what you're doing, and you're using a tone that sounds like you don't know what you're doing.

• 1:18:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:55Jocko Willink?

  You're not gonna get a lot of people jumping in there to execute what you're telling them to do.

• 1:19:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. That is nuts, because when you think about it, I mean, even saying that, you start to think about what, like all the little things, all of them, that you're doing while you're saying something or trying to say something. Like even blinking. Like even if you blinked one time versus 10 times, just blinking, that teeny, teeny tiny thing.

• 1:19:20Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:19:20Speaker 01

  When you said, you know, like, bruh, it's like you're saying something completely different, even if.

• 1:19:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:25Speaker 01

  Even.

• 1:19:25Jocko Willink?

  No, like when I'm talking to people, I will not blink.

• 1:19:28Speaker 01

  I, yeah, I noticed that very early, early on in our relationship that you don't really blink when you're talking, but.

• 1:19:34Jocko Willink?

  I will look, I, I, and, and the weird thing is, is I'm not consciously doing that kind of thing.

• 1:19:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:41Jocko Willink?

  But I do know that it's happening.

• 1:19:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I, man, when I, when I first started making videos, I, I noticed it a lot. So, you know, cause I'd noticed like villains and charac- certain types, quote unquote, types of characters. So when a villain, when an actor is playing a villain and he's saying something that it, that's evil or, or whatever. And he's blinking, bruh, I don't buy it at all. And the fact you kind of can't really buy it. But if they're saying something, what, if it's important in whatever way and they're not blinking, it's almost like, man, that alone sells it so much, just that alone. Of course, there's other stuff. But like, yeah, what blinking, even like wrinkling your forehead kind of thing, like all these little things. So it goes so deep that, you know, you can take two people. One guy does hand motions all the time, like just he moves his hands a lot when he talks.

• 1:20:28Speaker 01

  And the other guy does the exact opposite. He moves his hands so little that it's noticeable. It's not that, oh, he lacks verbal communication. It's his ina- it's that his inaction is his verbal communication. See what I'm saying? So it's not like he has less verbal communication than the guy who uses his hands. He has just as much. He's just saying something completely different because he's still, see what I'm saying? So it's like just all these non-verbal things. That's how deep it goes, man.

• 1:20:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and this is where self-awareness, this is where role-playing. And most important, good, cause look, you're not gonna, you're not gonna become an Academy Award-winning actor.

• 1:21:09Jocko Willink?

  So what you actually need to do is believe in what you're saying.

• 1:21:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:13Jocko Willink?

  That's what you need to do. Cause if you don't believe in what you're saying, your troops are looking at you thinking, he doesn't even believe this. Why am I gonna go charge this machine gun nest? When this guy doesn't even believe that he should be charged in this machine gun nest.

• 1:21:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:26Jocko Willink?

  And yet, if you truly believe that this is what should go down, people will see that you believe it and they're gonna follow.

• 1:21:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. So how you feel about this? This might be slightly separate. Okay. So you know how people, they'll give you the advice, like you, you wanna, you wanna act confident. You wanna be confident when you do this stuff, even if you're not confident or whatever.

• 1:21:45Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:21:46Speaker 01

  So it's kinda like people can smell when you're not confident and you're acting confident. Same way they can smell it when you're trying to act casual or act relaxed. But I can see, you know, everyone can see that. But

• 1:21:59Speaker 01

  if you do it enough, doesn't it start, don't you get kinda good at it?

• 1:22:02Jocko Willink?

  Well, that's the thing. The advice that I give people isn't go be confident when you talk to people. What I say is when you talk to people, make sure you know what you're talking about.

• 1:22:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:15Jocko Willink?

  Cause if you know what you're talking about, you will come across as confident. Why will you come across as confident? Because you are confident. Now, sure, there's some people that have some natural ability to act confident even when they're not. Yes. And there's also some people that can be very convincing in telling people to do something that they don't actually believe in. That's very rare. It's very rare.

• 1:22:37Speaker 01

  And even I feel like those people, and obviously I don't know, cause I don't know all the people, but it seemed like those are the people, they're just used to doing it. They're used to telling tall tales with complete confidence.

• 1:22:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. But you can see how people, if they repeatedly talk about the same thing, certainly they get better at it. And can they take that too far where they're just turning into a robot that's up there reciting something that they've heard and people go, oh, this guy just got this memorized. Cause that's jacked up too, right? Like if you just go, oh, this guy's just memorized this thing and He's not really into it, right? That's, that's not a good sign either.

• 1:23:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:13Jocko Willink?

  People can see through that.

• 1:23:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, if, yeah, if it's like, yeah, manufac- manufactured enthusiasm or something like that. Yeah, if they can smell it for sure. Yeah, but, because some people like they'll memorize that. Let's say if it's a speech, it obviously depends on the context totally. But, you know, if it's a speech or a lecture or presentation that somebody's get, giving that they always give. And, you know, when they talk about this X, Y, Z exciting part, or, you know, important part, they've done it literally 10,000 times. So they're not going to convey natural excitement. They have to sort of manufacture it for the crowd kind of thing. And yeah, if that, you know, manufactured excitement comes off as manufactured to the crowd. Yeah, that'll jam me, jam your whole thing up.

• 1:23:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and I think that's why you have to be talking about something that you know about is part one. And part two, you have to be talking about something that you care about.

• 1:24:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:08Jocko Willink?

  If you don't care about, you don't want to hear me stand up and talk about

• 1:24:14Jocko Willink?

  something, you know, some, whatever. You don't want, you don't want to hear me talk about candle making.

• 1:24:21Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:24:22Jocko Willink?

  Right? Because I don't care about candle making. In fact, I don't really like candles.

• 1:24:28Speaker 01

  Alright, cool.

• 1:24:29Jocko Willink?

  I'm, I'm just being honest here.

• 1:24:31Speaker 01

  I respect your opinion.

• 1:24:32Jocko Willink?

  I don't like candles. Why would you have candles? It's 2019. You have a light, right?

• 1:24:39Speaker 01

  Well, there's many different reasons for candles, but yeah, mood lighting, uh, you know, scented.

• 1:24:44Jocko Willink?

  My point is, I don't like candles. You don't want to hear me talk about candles. You don't want to hear me talk about the, the construction of candles because I don't care about it. And I'm not going to give a very passionate talk about candles, even if I studied the subject matter. If you hear me talking about leadership, you can't harness the enthusiasm that I have for talking about leadership. You can't, you can't hold it back. It's coming out.

• 1:25:11Speaker 01

  Unbridled.

• 1:25:11Jocko Willink?

  It's unbridled. It's coming out because I really care about this. When I'm talking to a bunch of people that are leaders, I want them to win. I want them to learn. I want them to absorb what I'm saying because I know it can be helpful to them because I've seen it be helpful to thousands of people. So I want them to get the message. And so it's going to come out that way. So I know what I'm talking about. I believe what I'm talking about, what I am talking about. And I care about what I am talking about. And if you're talking to people, try and talk about things that you know about, that you care about, and that you believe in. And if you do that, as a leader, when you're giving direction, and it's direction that you believe in, it's direction that you care about the outcome, and it's direction that you know and understand,

• 1:25:55Jocko Willink?

  you are going to come across like a confident leader, and people are going to listen to you. If you're failing in those categories, it's going to be harder for you.

• 1:26:10Jocko Willink?

  This is interesting. Continuing on, and we just went on a little riff right there, but a leader is actually giving conflicting orders if his uncertain manner hints that he does not expect obedience, or that he thinks he may not be obeyed. So even if you stand up and you say it, you can be give conflicting orders if you just don't, if you just look like you're unsure of what you're doing.

• 1:26:33Jocko Willink?

  Although it is possible for the new leader, who has lacked experience, to imitate the manner and tone of wiser leaders around him, only practice and command develops the appropriate manner and tone. And I would go further to say, it's not just about practice. You're not going to become a good actor. What you want to do is you want to believe in what you're saying. You want to care about what you're saying. You don't know much what you're saying.

• 1:26:54Jocko Willink?

  Next, lack of a confident manner inevitably interferes with command. So also may a manner that betrays indecision. For men respond to the signs of indecision by withholding or delaying action. The rule is that a leader should make up his mind and arrive at that decision before he gives orders.

• 1:27:17Jocko Willink?

  Very obvious, but not so obvious, because people screw it up. When he confronts his men, he must be ready to commit himself to this course or that. Men will accept assurance for competence, and they do not want competence, and they do want competence in leader. Now, this is, again, this is a situation where I...

• 1:27:36Jocko Willink?

  Men will accept assurance for competence. That's not readily true. Because, just because you're, if you're sure of yourself, the only way you're gonna be sure of yourself is if you are competent. Unless you're one of these small fractions of people that are con men, right? A con man that can be like, this is what we're gonna do, everyone. Like, that's... You're a con man. If you're really good at that, lying to people and telling them something that you don't believe in, fine, it'll work sometimes. If you're great at it, it might work more often than that. If you're a normal person and you want to be a really good leader, you shouldn't be just using your confidence to overcome the fact that you don't believe in what you're doing. And it's gonna be really hard to do that.

• 1:28:17Jocko Willink?

  It is really hard to do that. People have really good lie detectors in their minds.

• 1:28:26Jocko Willink?

  This is a great section. What soldiers think of leaders. For the first time in the history of armies, the Army of the United States has undertaken to find out what its enlisted personnel think about a large number of things important to the army. Some thousands of soldiers have been interviewed at length, and one of the subjects about which they were questioned is army leadership. What the soldiers said makes it very clear that the quality of leadership in an army is the most important single determiner of morale and performance. Did everyone just hear that? What soldiers said makes it very clear that the quality of leadership in an army is the most important single determiner of morale and performance.

• 1:29:13Jocko Willink?

  What do we say now? At Echelon Front, we say leadership is the most important thing on the battlefield. I luckily don't have to pay the writer of this book to say that, because that's the same thing. Leadership is the most important thing on the battlefield, is the single most important determiner of morale and performance.

• 1:29:34Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on, the relationship between men and officers, commissioned and non-commissioned, determines the fighting spirit of an army quite as much as the ability of the soldiers to take training does.

• 1:29:46Jocko Willink?

  In fact, it turns out that these human relations are much more important to morale than beefsteak, warm socks, ballgames, and vaudeville shows, or what the men believe about the war.

• 1:30:04Jocko Willink?

  What they think with the relationship that you have with your people is more important than all these other things. It's more important than their actual belief in what they're doing. More important than their belief in the war. Continue on. Among the 150 so items covered in the interview, 77 proved to be definitely associated with morale and of the 20 most closely related to morale, 16 have to do with man to officer relations. What the men think of their leaders is then of utmost importance to the army and to the successful prosecution of the war. Roughly in order of their association with good leadership in the minds of the enlisted

• 1:30:47Jocko Willink?

  men are the following points. So here's what makes a good leader. One, ability. Competence comes first. The good officer must know his stuff for on this depends the confidence in his leadership. Boom. And interestingly, that is proof of what I just said. That if you don't believe in what you're doing, you don't know what you're doing, everyone's gonna sense it. So competence, number one. Number two, next to the ability, next to ability is interest in the welfare of the soldier.

• 1:31:29Jocko Willink?

  The officer who can be trusted to help the soldier in time of need or who would be accessible for personal advice is a good officer. So you gotta, you gotta be caring about your men. Number three, promptness in making decisions is next. Number four, good teacher or instructor follows. The leader who has the patience and the ability to make things clear, to get men under him, to get, to make things clear to the men under him is valued for that reason. So you gotta be a good teacher. Number five, judgment, common sense and the ability to get things done follow in next. Judgment and common sense. Isn't it interesting? Common sense.

• 1:32:13Jocko Willink?

  So what, you know, we want, we want to have some common sense. And that horribly cliched saying of common sense sometimes isn't very common.

• 1:32:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:23Jocko Willink?

  And it's a cliche cuz it's true.

• 1:32:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:32:28Jocko Willink?

  You know how many times I've been sitting in a big meeting?

• 1:32:30Speaker 01

  Planning.

• 1:32:31Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean? And said something that was so obvious, to such common sense? And had people kind of jaw drop at this amazing statement, which was completely obvious. Because sometimes common sense isn't too common.

• 1:32:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's only common to you. It's like relative, you know, like, you know, that's why it's never like,

• 1:32:54Speaker 01

  shouldn't say never, but it's not that good of an idea generally to be like, it's common sense and be like mad at someone for not knowing quote unquote common sense.

• 1:33:02Jocko Willink?

  Yes, no, it's not good. And it's not good when you, when you make a statement that is common sense, to say it condescendingly, like, this is just common sense, everyone, you need to do this.

• 1:33:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:13Jocko Willink?

  And then everyone already is mad at you.

• 1:33:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:16Jocko Willink?

  They're, they're resentful of you.

• 1:33:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, just from the tone alone, yeah.

• 1:33:19Jocko Willink?

  From the tone alone.

• 1:33:20Speaker 01

  And then on top of that.

• 1:33:21Jocko Willink?

  Not to mention you got your arms crossed and you're shaking your head.

• 1:33:24Speaker 01

  Nonverbal.

• 1:33:25Jocko Willink?

  Sarah Armstrong verbal cues.

• 1:33:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, just get, yeah, man, because common sense in California is different than common sense in Texas, some of it.

• 1:33:35Jocko Willink?

  Possibly.

• 1:33:36Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:33:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:37Speaker 01

  Well, common sense in Texas is different than California, I'll tell you that.

• 1:33:40Jocko Willink?

  That's a good point. Yes, you are correct.

• 1:33:43Speaker 01

  So you can, yeah, the number's going to be on you when you start doing that stuff, the condescending deal.

• 1:33:49Jocko Willink?

  Here we go. Number six, the good leader does not boss you around when there is no good reason for it. Soldiers dislike an officer who throws his rank around, who tests his own authority continually. They sense that he is not sure of himself.

• 1:34:08Jocko Willink?

  Let that one sink in. If you're bossing people around, using your rank to make things happen, your people don't like you.

• 1:34:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:19Jocko Willink?

  And there's someone that says, I'm not here for my people to like, like me. You're wrong. If your people don't like you, they will not perform as well as people that do like you and you're their leader. Number seven, the man who tells you when you have done a good job rates well as a good leader. Failure in commendation is a common complaint among men in the ranks. The best incentive to good work is the prospect that it will be noticed and remembered by the leader.

• 1:34:45Jocko Willink?

  Solid.

• 1:34:47Jocko Willink?

  Next, and I'm, that's something I don't do a lot of. I'm not like, okay, good job, buddy. But I will say that when I do tell someone they did a good job, they know that I mean it. And they're usually pretty fired up that I said it to them.

• 1:35:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would agree with that.

• 1:35:04Jocko Willink?

  Number eight, physical strength and good build come next. You're nodding your head over there, Echo Charles.

• 1:35:12Speaker 01

  Well, I agree. Because, I mean, okay, so. And at risk of sounding like maybe disparaging any one in particular, or any type of person in particular. But I'm just saying, this is like factually. So you ever watch like a self-defense video?

• 1:35:32Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:35:32Speaker 01

  And no matter what they're teaching.

• 1:35:35Jocko Willink?

  Because I follow McDojo Life.

• 1:35:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:39Jocko Willink?

  And Dean Lister and Joe Rogan reposts those McDojo Life things. But yeah, there's all kinds of weird self-defense things, and I know where you're going with this.

• 1:35:46Speaker 01

  Yes, so physical.

• 1:35:48Jocko Willink?

  The self-defense guy who doesn't look like he could make it up a flight of stairs.

• 1:35:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:35:52Jocko Willink?

  And you're thinking, bro, I'm not going to listen to anything that you say.

• 1:35:55Speaker 01

  Right, which technically, his physique does not prove the effectiveness of his technique.

• 1:36:01Jocko Willink?

  That is true.

• 1:36:01Speaker 01

  It doesn't, but.

• 1:36:02Jocko Willink?

  What about when he's got the sign hanging up in the background that says, honor, strength and discipline? And only discipline he has is putting away the quarter pounders with cheese daily.

• 1:36:15Speaker 01

  And that's, that's the point, you know, so it's like, Brad, it is something. And I, again, I don't want to disparage anyone's system or whatever, but yeah, man. If I'm a soldier or a listener or a follower and I'm gonna, first impression, right? I come up to you and you're gonna teach me something and you're like sloppy, you're a sloppy person? I'll tell you, that's at the very least, that's a strike against you.

• 1:36:35Jocko Willink?

  Well, there's no doubt about it, and you're just, just even me and Ramadi and telling all my guys, hey, you will wear a squared away uniform because first impressions mean something. And so if somebody shows up to be in charge of you and they can't take charge of their own health, it's an indicator that maybe they got some other issues, especially, I mean, then this is clearly directed at. People that are in the military because military is a physical job. Pretty much regardless of what you're doing in the military, you have to have some physical capability to put on a rucksack and go and walk for a long period of time. You gotta be able to do these certain physical activities and if it's apparent from looking at you that you can't do that, respect is going down. And by the way,

• 1:37:17Jocko Willink?

  this isn't, this isn't me talking. This isn't you talking. This is what these thousands of soldiers that filled out this survey said, "Hey, physical strength and good build come next." That's what's respected.

• 1:37:29Jocko Willink?

  And it's definitely not mandatory because I mean Napoleon was like a tiny guy, right? So it's not a mandatory thing, but

• 1:37:40Jocko Willink?

  don't be out of shape. I can tell you that. Get in shape. Hey, get in shape. How's that? If you're not in shape, get in shape. It'll be better for you as a leader. It'll be better for you as a human being. It'll help everything that you're doing. So do it.

• 1:37:56Jocko Willink?

  Number nine, good education, sense of humor and guts or courage.

• 1:38:02Jocko Willink?

  Number 10, impartiality is next. Leaders who do not save the dirty jobs for fellows they don't like are valued. The good leader is fair to all in his command. So be fair. It's common sense, which I guess isn't too common.

• 1:38:18Jocko Willink?

  Next in importance is industry. Leaders who do as little work as they can get away with are not respected by the enlisted men.

• 1:38:27Jocko Willink?

  Don't be standing around with your hands in your pockets. Don't do that. 12. When an officer gives orders in such a way that you clearly know what to do is a mark of merit as a leader. Soldiers also like an officer with a clear, strong voice.

• 1:38:50Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 1:38:53Jocko Willink?

  That makes sense. The remaining qualities which the soldiers mentioned came toward the bottom of the list. They are undoubtedly related to good leadership, but they are less important. Not hot tempered.

• 1:39:07Jocko Willink?

  Do not drive you too hard. Keep promises. The kind of fellows you could have a good time with. Not too proud of their rank are all characteristics which some men want in their leaders, but there is no general agreement about them. Many leaders are considered good in spite of failures on these parts. The chief things a man wants from a leader are thus competence and interest in his welfare. The orders of a man who does not know his stuff cannot be depended on. They are subject to change and countermand.

• 1:39:41Jocko Willink?

  An incompetent leader teaches caution and hesitation in following his lead. He becomes a signal for lack of action on the part of the soldier. Indecision in a leader has the same effect on a soldier as ignorance has. No soldier can follow a leader who's uncertain which way to turn. The essential quality of any leader is to take lead and show the direction quickly, clearly, emphatically, and with enthusiasm. Without these qualities, a man is not even a good leader for his hunting dog. Now, the interesting thing about that is, there's a, there's a little dichotomy that reveals itself. It's like, okay, you gotta be decisive. And give direction quickly, clearly, and emphatically. That's great. That sounds good. What happens if you're not sure?

• 1:40:26Jocko Willink?

  What happens if you're truly not sure which direction to go? Then what you do is, you say, "Hold up.

• 1:40:34Jocko Willink?

  Form a perimeter. We're, we gotta get a resection on the map." That is so much better than saying, "All right, well, we're gonna push a little further." You know what I mean? Like, "I'm not really sure where we are and, hold on and, wait." If you just go, "Hey, look, we're a little turned around right now. We're gonna get a couple of resections. We're gonna check the GPS, whatever we're gonna do. We're gonna find out exactly where we're on, then we're gonna move forward. Take five." And everyone goes, "Oh, cool. Jaco's got this under wraps. We're good."

• 1:40:58Speaker 01

  I guess technically that is being decisive.

• 1:41:00Jocko Willink?

  It is being decisive, yes. You can be decisive in, in trying to uncover what the next move is gonna be, because you're not sure. But sometimes people try and... You know BS their way through a scenario like that and that again you're you're you don't know what you're doing and you're proving that. So it's best to be truthful and say, hey, look, we're turned around right now. We're going to form a perimeter. We're going to cut a resection. We're going to find out where we are and then we're going to move. You got 10 minutes. Boom. Everyone goes, okay, cool.

• 1:41:30Jocko Willink?

  Good times.

• 1:41:33Jocko Willink?

  So those that is a great list of what what people look for from leaders. And sure, it's directed at the military, but almost every single one of those is equally applicable to any leadership position. Next, the role of the soldier. Part of what makes a man a good soldier is the own is his own adoption of the soldier's role. He comes to think and speak of himself as a soldier. What a man thinks of himself affects his behavior. The rail straightener, which is the skilled worker who runs the machine that straightens railroad rails is one man when he thinks of himself with pride as a rail straightener.

• 1:42:16Jocko Willink?

  He becomes another when he begins as he may to regard himself as a mere wage slave. The rail straightener takes pride in his work, does a good job, is happy. The wage slave lets crooked rails get by because he doesn't care. In the same way, the soldier who thinks proudly of himself as a soldier is doing a service to both himself and the army. How smart is that?

• 1:42:42Speaker 01

  That is very good. Yeah. So it's like you're kind of introducing a sense of identity, right? And then like their job, like this is what you do. And people do that, you know, for themselves, like, you know, I'm a whatever, you know?

• 1:42:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I remember sometime it was actually quite a while ago, somebody posted a picture of a very intricate plumbing job.

• 1:43:04Jocko Willink?

  And it was like eight million copper pipes all perfectly spaced coming in. I was like, this dude is proud to be a plumber and it shows. It's legit. So, yes, if you are in a job, get into the job, right? And let me tell you this, if you're not into the job and you want to get out of the job, the best way for you to get out of the job is by getting into the job. You're doing something that you don't care about, care about it. Cause otherwise people look at you, why would I promote you? You can't even, you can't even dig this ditch correctly. If you're out there digging that ditch like you, like you mean it, like you make, trying to make a perfect ditch in the world, do it.

• 1:43:46Jocko Willink?

  Certain forms of punishment, published, public disgrace, ridicule, all disturb the role of the soldier and may lessen or destroy his usefulness to the army and his amendability to leadership. The non-commissioned or commissioned officer who rides one of his men in such a manner as to make him doubt his own value as a soldier is shattering the man's best motive for good performance. The senior leader who reprimands a junior in the presence of his men reduces that junior's value to the army.

• 1:44:13Jocko Willink?

  Almost never good to belittle someone in front of the team. Good leadership, on the other hand, causes men to build up each for himself, a particular role, a specialty. It means a great deal to a man to take pride in being a soldier, into being a sharpshooter, an aviation mechanic, a truck driver, a cook, or a radio operator. Competent leaders criticize a poor piece of work, condemn a mistake, but never take, but take care to never make a soldier feel he is a failure at his job. So you can criticize the mistake that they made, but don't criticize their, their ability in that job. When a soldier begins to regard himself as being part of his unit and when his job

• 1:44:57Jocko Willink?

  has become part of his role, then teamwork is enormously improved. The soldier who thinks of himself as only a private temporarily on this or that assignment is a different man from the soldier who thinks of himself as a necessary member of his outfit.

• 1:45:15Jocko Willink?

  Good information. And here's how we get selection of leaders. Rank is no guarantee of the ability to judge leadership in others, nor are good leaders necessarily competent to assess good leadership in others. The test of competent judge is his successful predictions in the past.

• 1:45:37Jocko Willink?

  So you might be the highest ranking guy, but that doesn't mean you can necessarily figure out who's going to be a good leader. Unless you show repetitively that you can select good leaders. The interview itself is not a fair or accurate test of the soldier. The man who would make a good leader may be a modest man who fails in an interview to exhibit those qualities that would make his men believe in him, trust him and admire him. And the man who could never secure the loyalty of subordinates may nevertheless be by assurance and poise, by voice and manner, mislead inexperienced judges as to his capacity. So all the time I get asked, which, how should I interview? What should I ask? You can only figure out so much. And when I get asked that, I always say, okay, who in here

• 1:46:21Jocko Willink?

  thought they were hiring the best guy that they've ever hired and he turned out to be a loser? And everyone raises their hand. And how many times have you taken a chance on someone that you weren't sure if they're going to work out? And they turned out to be a stud. Everyone raises their hand. It's really hard to judge who's going to work well and who's not.

• 1:46:35Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. And that kind of goes for like friends too. You know, like, I mean, man, that happens all the time where you meet someone and you're just not, you don't really feel them that much, but they end up being your best friend or something like that, like years later or something like that. It's weird like that, like certain situations, even certain first impressions, you know, that are, that are like, they don't indicate the long haul, you know?

• 1:46:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:47:00Jocko Willink?

  It takes a little bit of time to uncover what people are real about, really about in many cases. I can tell you like, I feel pretty good about judging people.

• 1:47:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:08Jocko Willink?

  And I'm probably like 70% accurate, you know? So that's not a great, like, I feel pretty good about it, but I know that I'm only batting 70%.

• 1:47:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. Which is like a C. But the, I wonder if.

• 1:47:21Speaker 01

  And do you think this, do you think that there's certain things that are maybe even subconscious about people that you can sort of tell after just talking to them for a second, whether it be like certain thing, ways they react to.

• 1:47:33Jocko Willink?

  I got asked, this just popped up in my mind. I got asked, I was at a event and it wasn't, it was an interesting event. It wasn't with a specific company, which normally I'm working with a company. And I was just at an event where I was speaking to multiple different companies. And, and this woman stood up to ask a question and as soon as she stood up, I was like, this is gonna be, she, she does not want to hear my answer, no matter what I say. Like she just stood up with just arrogance dripping off her. And, and just, I was like, no, she's not gonna, she's not gonna like this answer. Whatever answer I give, whatever question she asks.

• 1:48:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:11Jocko Willink?

  She is not, she's not listening.

• 1:48:13Speaker 01

  So that, that thought that you had right there, when did that come?

• 1:48:17Jocko Willink?

  It was correct.

• 1:48:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:18Jocko Willink?

  It was basically when she stood up and then three words out of her mouth.

• 1:48:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, where it's just like confirm, confirm.

• 1:48:26Jocko Willink?

  I was like, yeah. And, and it's also interesting because, you know, she just, when you're working with a single company, they're all kind of on board and they're all kind of like they're, uh, maybe they're not on board with what you're saying, but they're unified as a group, trying to move in a certain direction. So we have a random group of people and the woman stands up and I could tell right away, yep, she's got it. She does, she, there's no answer I'm gonna give her that's gonna make her happy.

• 1:48:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. But did it feel like it was like subconscious? Like was it like, or were you like, see the way she's standing?

• 1:48:58Jocko Willink?

  It was visual cues. And then, you know, the, the opening of the question, I can't remember what it was, but it was like, oh, yes, confirmed.

• 1:49:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. Let me tell you something.

• 1:49:07Jocko Willink?

  It was one of those. It was one of those, you know? And so what I did was I preempted my answer and I said, you're, you know, cause then she asked the question. And I said, you're actually not gonna like my answer to this question, but I'm just gonna tell you what I've seen. And I appreciate the question. And then I answered the question. And of course she didn't like the answer. You, you know why she didn't like the answer? Because the answer was, the, the leadership question and the problem with the people that you're having is not a problem with the people that you have. It's a problem with you.

• 1:49:39Jocko Willink?

  Which is the way it is with all leadership problems. When you have a problem with your team, your team isn't performing the way you want them to do. It's it's is it be oh, they're lazy. Oh, they don't do the mission correctly. Whose fault is that? You're the leader.

• 1:49:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:52Jocko Willink?

  You're the leader in charge of the people. So if they're not doing the mission that you want them to execute it, or how you want them to execute it, you can't blame them. They literally work for you. You are the boss of them. So let's list. Do you want to explain to me how you give them the direction? You want to talk to me about like what what sort of direction you give them, how you communicate with them? And we went down that road, you know, but at the end of the day, she sat down with no, she took nothing I said on board, zero. And and this is a fairly rare occasion. You know, that's why I remember this was a couple of years ago, but I remember it because I thought, yep, she didn't. She's when she stood up, I said, oh, she's not listening to me. And then

• 1:50:35Jocko Willink?

  she's not going to like my answer. And then when she sat down, I said, yep, she's going to walk out of here and go, heck, I didn't know what he was talking about.

• 1:50:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:42Jocko Willink?

  It's not my it's not my problem that my team is all jacked up. It's not my it's not my fault that my team is lazy. One of her key components of her statement was that her team was lazy.

• 1:50:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:54Jocko Willink?

  And they weren't meeting the standards. And the answer to that question isn't, you know, beat them harder, because that doesn't work. The answer to that question is you as a leader are not doing a good job of leading them. Or there is a chance that your team is completely incompetent and you need to train them or get rid of them. Guess what both of those things are? Your responsibility. You're the leader. You need to train them or you need to get rid of them. So.

• 1:51:22Speaker 01

  Worst answer in the world.

• 1:51:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:24Speaker 01

  And the best.

• 1:51:25Jocko Willink?

  It's the worst answer in the world. It hurts. You know, Leif talks about this. Leif talks about like when he was like when he's writing, no bad teams, only bad leaders. He's literally thinking about things that he did where he was blaming his team, you know, and he's just looking. He's looking back going, here I was blaming my team and none of it was my fault. And that's that's the revelation that you have.

• 1:51:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, bro, I've seen literally witnesses in like a bunch of times too, where people would stand up, which with what I thought was sort of that sort of feel, that tone like, oh, like they're gonna, they're just gonna stump you, Mr. Mr. Know it all, you know, kind of attitude. And then. You tell them that answer like it's like, hey, it's your responsibility, you know, and then it I can see their mind just totally changing. And they accept it.

• 1:52:15Jocko Willink?

  And actually going back to this woman, when I was talking to this woman. I I immediately tried to like frame it in the most humble way to not offend her ego. You know, when I told her, when I told her, you know, you're not going to like the answer I give you. I didn't say it like that. I was like, look, I'm going to give you an answer that I I got a feeling you're probably not even going to like this answer. But I just going to tell you kind of what I've seen, you know, so I I tried to do my best to not hit her ego in the face. The problem was her ego was big and strong and dug in.

• 1:52:47Speaker 01

  And leading the way.

• 1:52:49Jocko Willink?

  Leading out front. And so it was, you know, and that always bums me out. It doesn't happen very often. Like I said, I mean, this is two years ago or something like that. And I'm remembering this person asking this question. I remember thinking to myself. That she doesn't want to hear what I'm going to do. What she wanted me to say is, yeah, you're right. Your team is so horrible and.

• 1:53:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, you have the exception.

• 1:53:09Jocko Willink?

  You know, they probably just hate, you know, the world and they don't want to do like, like, you know what it is? They probably don't want to do a good job. They probably don't want to get promoted. They probably don't want to make any extra money. They probably want to go home unsatisfied with your job. That's that's their, that's their deal, right? And I'm sorry that you've been burdened with this horrible team that feels that way.

• 1:53:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:32Jocko Willink?

  Right? Because that's absolutely true. You don't have a whole, you might have one or two people on your team that aren't very enthusiastic. But you're not going to have a whole team that no one wants to do a good job. No one wants to put in any extra effort. No one wants to work hard. You don't have a whole team like that. And by the way, if you do have a team like that, guess what? It is your responsibility to get rid of those members that don't want to do what they need to do to win.

• 1:54:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, a lot of times when it happens, when I lead people down that that question, they'll be like, hey, you know, I got this department and I'll say, oh, okay. Well, you know, I got this department and they got these, these mid-level managers and they're all horrible. I'm like, oh, that's, that's terrible. Who's in charge of the mid-level managers? Oh, well, it's this guy. Okay. Who's in charge of that guy? Oh, this other guy. Who's in charge of that guy? Well, I am. Okay. So whose fault is this? Yeah. It's your fault.

• 1:54:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:35Jocko Willink?

  It's truly your fault.

• 1:54:37Speaker 01

  It's funny. You'll do this technique, which I always find pretty impressive, like as far as a little, it's almost like it's not a chess game because it's not you against the asker of the question, but there's an element to it. Just like that, like how you like make them answer their own questions, kind of thing where, but you go, um, you'll say, oh, do you, do you think that they just want to do a bad job? And they'll be like, oh, no, no, no, nothing like that. Oh, do you think that like, um, that they want your company to fail? You know, it's those questions.

• 1:55:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And that goes up and down the chain of command too. Cause someone's like, well, my boss doesn't do this. I'm like, do you think your boss wants to lower your profitability?

• 1:55:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:11Jocko Willink?

  Do you think your boss wants you to do things that are less safe? Do you think your boss wants you to have people leaving on a regular basis? Do you think your boss wants more turnover? Do you think your boss, you go right down the list. Of course it's no, no, no, no, no. And eventually you realize, oh, so the problem here is me because I'm not communicating well enough to explain to my boss what I need. Yes.

• 1:55:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a good one. But it's good to also not only as like something fun to kind of watch or whatever, but, um, you know, so you watch them kind of gain understanding. That is cool for sure. But it helps because it helps even me or people listening, like put it into perspective, you know, like, man, no one's against you, bro. Like, you just, just, hey, you know, make some right moves and say some right things and man, get it, just get on the same page.

• 1:55:54Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, most of the time when someone is against you, because there are times, you know, you got that person that's a, uh, just wants to get promoted and they're looking to step all, it's like, do a good job, do a great job, keep working hard. Make them look good. What are you talking about? No, you make them look good. It will come back. It will come back.

• 1:56:19Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, the only proof of leadership is leadership.

• 1:56:26Jocko Willink?

  And the best thing to do is give it a chance to emerge and then have competent men judge whether it has appeared. So this is another, it's just hard to know what people are like until you actually put them in the situation. Although young men can make excellent leaders, leadership develops with experience, no doubt about that.

• 1:56:46Jocko Willink?

  It is known moreover, that the men of a platoon can size each other up effectively, can pick out men who deserve advancement more consistently than leaders can.

• 1:56:56Jocko Willink?

  The men know competence when they see it. Thus, it appears that the officer who fails to find out quietly the opinions of his subordinates when he is selecting a man for promotion, is overlooking a valid source of information, one that is in the long run, far more accurate than his own judgment.

• 1:57:12Jocko Willink?

  So, listen to your people.

• 1:57:16Jocko Willink?

  Lead, next section, very important, or important. Leadership can be learned. There are no born leaders. All leadership is based on learning how to deal with men. Nearly all leaders improve after they have had some experience in command. Some improve faster than others and some continue to improve while others do not.

• 1:57:43Jocko Willink?

  So, there are no born leaders.

• 1:57:46Jocko Willink?

  Okay, we know my debate on this, I actually disagree with that. Well, I should say this. Okay, there might not be born leaders, but there are people that are born with certain aptitudes with, for a variety of leadership qualities. And somebody posted something on social media that said, there's a gene.

• 1:58:09Jocko Willink?

  There is a gene that you have or don't have as a human being, that relates to your ability to articulate. So, guess what? If you are born with that gene and you have a high level ability to articulate and communicate with other human beings,

• 1:58:28Jocko Willink?

  you are born with more aptitude to become a leader. Could you end up still being a terrible leader? Yes, because there's some people that are very articulate that are horrible leaders. But it is one attribute that you are born with. Doesn't necessarily make you a leader, but it gives you more aptitude to be a leader. So, maybe that is correct. You're not born a leader, but you're born with a little more aptitude to be a leader.

• 1:58:50Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, consider the qualities which enlisted men believe important in leaders. The first is competency and ability. Competence is based on learning. The good leader has learned his job thoroughly. So there you go. That makes sense. His men can trust him to know what he is doing. He knows not only what he learned in his training courses, but he's kept it up to date. If he is an artilleryman, he knows how the Germans use artillery and what guns they have. The rule is a simple one, know your stuff. So that I agree with. You learn to be competent. Second competence is the officer's interest in the soldier as a man. A demonstrated interest that gives the soldier confidence that when he stands up to hardship

• 1:59:32Jocko Willink?

  or is in trouble, the hardship is a necessary part of the job and his troubles give his officer concern. So you got to care about your people. And actually, what's interesting about this whole section? If you remember, this is, this is saying there's no born leaders. But there's a whole section in the first part of this book that talks about men have different aptitudes and skills that they either have or they don't have. And some of it had to do with, you know, you were a truck driver in the civilian sector. So you're going to make a good truck driver in the military. But it also talked about how some people aren't, don't have the aptitude for certain jobs. So they're being a little bit hypocritical here, just a little bit. Okay, so we're talking about caring about people.

• 2:00:17Jocko Willink?

  And here it says, every man can by, can by practice, improve his skill in human understanding and increase his repertoire of actions that demonstrate interest in others. The rule here is, is less simple. It is know your men and show it. Know their names, their history, their weaknesses, their good points, their morale. Begin by studying their qualification cards. So that's another skill that you can get better at. Decisiveness is a skill harder to acquire, but it can with attention be it cultivated. When you have a hard choice, remember you do not usually have to make a snap judgment. Careful consideration weighing the merits of alternate courses is not indecision.

• 2:01:02Jocko Willink?

  Your men will respect your judgment even more if you deserve, if you reserve decision until you are in possession of all the facts necessary for a wise choice. Do not set up a council of war to pass things by vote. You are the leader, but seek advice when you need it and do not hesitate to call on your subordinates for counsel if they are qualified to give it. But choose your course before you give the orders, which we already heard. So there's, and this is also a little bit contrary, or not contrary, but this is an addendum to what was being said earlier that you gotta be decisive. And here it's saying, look, you gotta be decisive, but you can take your time. You want to measure everything out.

• 2:01:45Jocko Willink?

  Another suggest, another suggestion to the leader is, remember when your men do not understand you, that it is your fault. You must talk their language, plain language. If you cannot express yourself clearly, it may be because you do not understand the subject yourself. Think things through carefully before you try to explain. So there you go, a little extreme ownership, a little simplicity in there. A leader then, to be worthy in the eyes of his men, would do well to follow these commands. Number one, be competent.

• 2:02:26Jocko Willink?

  Number two, be loyal to your men as well as to your country and army. Number three, know your men, understand them, love them, be proud of them. Number four, accept responsibility and give clear decisive orders. Number five, teach your men by putting them through the necessary action. Number six, give only necessary orders, but number seven, get things done. Number eight, be fair. Number nine, work hard.

• 2:03:09Jocko Willink?

  Number 10, remember that a leader is a symbol. Men need to respect and trust you. Don't let them down. So there you go, they, they wrap it all back into, from everything we started, started this thing talking about when they're talking about discipline and obedience. This whole thing about being a leader has nothing to do with obedience. It has to do with being a good leader. And that's how they wrap up that chapter. That's solid information in there. Now, this next section is about mobs and panic. And what's interesting about this

• 2:03:52Jocko Willink?

  is as a human being in charge of other human beings, you have to understand how mobs and panic unfold. Going back to the book, men in a mob act just as much in keeping with their past training and habits as they would if they were alone. But part of this training, which men get from earliest childhood, is to follow the example of other individuals and also to respond to their gestures, facial expressions, and tones of voice as well as other, as well as the spoken words of others. That's an interesting concept, isn't it? And it, it's a little trick statement. Cause what it's saying is, hey, when you've got a mob of people, they are acting in accordance with how they've been trained. But then you think yourself, well, in the army, then they wouldn't act that way. But then it goes on to say they've been trained since day one to imitate other people.

• 2:04:38Jocko Willink?

  So you're actually fighting against the rest of their training when you're trying to get them to not do something that everyone else is doing. And by the way, it's, it's an important thing that usually is beneficial and it goes into some of that here. When a soldier misunderstands a command, he starts to execute it as he interpreted it. But suppose in the middle of a movement, he becomes suddenly aware that the other men in ranks are doing something very different. Immediately he corrects his action to do what others are doing. So most of the time it's beneficial, that little mob mentality.

• 2:05:12Jocko Willink?

  In the same way, the sight of a leader running or galloping to the rear in a combat area may start a whole company heading after him on the double. His example can become as much a command as or order as his words. Mostly, it is a good thing that men naturally follow the example of others. It makes the world run more smoothly. Yet, the good principle has vicious results when mobs form or panic starts. Why mobs form? Mob's form because some one event or condition has brought people together and captured the attention of every person in the crowd. Usually, the mob is angry about something and it is and its angry excitement makes it ready for action. Panic, based on fear,

• 2:05:52Jocko Willink?

  is something else. So they differentiate between the mob that is angry and the mob that is afraid, that's panicking. Besides, a common focus of attention, so that's one element, is the common focus of attention, emotion is characteristic of all mobs. Since a mob is driven by powerful emotion, it is necessarily crazy to do something. It wants action, so it only takes a cry of lynch him or burn it to set the mob in motion. Mostly, when you get into a crowd, you join it. You do just what other people do. The sight of others seizing stones or starting an attack so grips

• 2:06:33Jocko Willink?

  the men watching them that they think of no other course of action. Mob's therefore are uncritical. Interesting statements about mobs. I'm trying to think, when have you been a part of a mob before?

• 2:06:49Speaker 01

  I mean, in that regard, no.

• 2:06:51Jocko Willink?

  I've been at some shows, and by that I mean hardcore shows back in the day, where the mob would start to get something, you know, like whether it was breaking down a barrier and yeah, you get swept up in that mob mentality and it's group think.

• 2:07:07Jocko Willink?

  This one's talking about panic. Soldiers do not often form mobs. Mob action among soldiers usually occurs when they are away from the usual reminders and circumstances of discipline, when they are on leave and mingling with men from other organizations without leadership. But panic can occur in the best-drilled, thoroughly-seasoned troops. It can occur in the midst of combat. Some of the greatest routs in history have been cases of panic. The panicked group is much like a mob, but it acts from fear, not anger. Its attention is focused on the object of fear. Its thought and its talk is of danger and disaster. Its aim is escape. Action becomes definite and mob-like only when obstacles to escape are encountered.

• 2:07:52Jocko Willink?

  It doesn't take much to set off a panic among troops who are panic ripe. Then a single cry of gas, or run, or we're cut off, may start a mad flight. And here it talks about panic ripeness. Anything that makes men tense, on edge, jittery, and oversensitive to slight noises, half-hidden sights, or sudden movements will make them easy victims of panic. For this reason, prolonged anxiety makes men panic ripe. So does over-fatigue, too much beer, or liquor, or a hangover. So does lack of proper food, especially deficiency of B vitamins. And so does exhaustion from lack of sleep.

• 2:08:34Jocko Willink?

  Prolonged exposure to noise and alarm of modern battle may produce the jumpy state of mind from which panic arises. One main cause of panic is lack of training. Training must cover practice in defense and retreat as well as in attack if panic is to be avoided, if the retreat is not to turn into a rout. The sight of one or several men running to the rear, the sight of others throwing away their gear weapons may cause a general scramble and discarding of arms. Bad morale is another cause of panic. Rumor sometimes plays an important part in readying men for panic. Poor leadership can make the ground ready for panic,

• 2:09:16Jocko Willink?

  impairing the confidence and command necessary to hold troops to the performance of duty. How to stop a panic? This is very important. Once a panic has begun, the only way to halt it is to capture attention and then provide positive, clear commands.

• 2:09:35Jocko Willink?

  Leaders must act with decision, firmness, and courage. If no officer is present, any self-possessed man can assume leadership and give the scared men what they need, clear, confident direction. So I think the important, there's two important parts, you've got to get their attention,

• 2:09:54Jocko Willink?

  and then you've got to give simple, clear, concise commands, positive commands. And then it goes on to say, but the best way to stop a panic is never to have it at all. Train all men thoroughly so that they have confidence in themselves, their leaders, their weapons. Train their leaders and select the best of them. Let good leaders build up good morale. Avoid hunger, thirst, and boredom as much as possible to do in war. End all the conditions that lead to nervous tension and complaint. If you cannot avoid them, and war is no bed of roses, fight them with good morale. Fight the feeling of insecurity. Tell the men all they need to know. Let them know all possible information about the enemy, where he is, what he's like, how he attacks, what weapons he is using.

• 2:10:39Jocko Willink?

  Last but not least, build up faith. Be sure the men know why they are fighting, why it is a good cause. Let them be sure that their officers are with them all the way. Faith in an ideal, plus faith in your leaders, plus faith in other fellows in your unit, can win victory against superior forces.

• 2:11:03Jocko Willink?

  So there you go, you've got to watch out for that.

• 2:11:07Jocko Willink?

  Next section, differences among races and peoples. Modern total war has placed a new responsibility on the shoulders of the soldier. Once, his only task was to destroy the enemy, but now psychological warfare requires him to play a new role. He must help win allies for Uncle Sam in many strange lands. And this is what's interesting, we always think of World War, well, we think of World War II for sure, as, hey, this is total war, you're not worried about hearts and minds, which was, you know, the campaign. It in really in Vietnam, it was hearts and minds, that's where that kind of originated. And certainly in Iraq and Afghanistan, we think, oh, those guys didn't have to deal with this back in the day.

• 2:11:50Jocko Willink?

  They have to deal with this, now we, we have to worry about the civilian populace and all this, guess what? We're wrong. 1942, they're talking about this.

• 2:12:00Jocko Willink?

  And it goes into, "There are no infallible recipes for making friends the world around. But there are two basic rules for all soldiers in the manual of psychological arms. Number one, mind your manners. Number two, understand and respect the manners of strangers, especially strangers who might help both you and the cause for which you are fighting." Seems pretty obvious.

• 2:12:30Jocko Willink?

  And no one thinks that in World War II, they had to watch their manners. But you do. Next one, talking about race. "Color of the skin is often the basis for prejudice because it is so clearly a badge of difference between peoples. A mark that sets one people apart as different as not one of us.

• 2:12:53Jocko Willink?

  American whites have been prejudiced not only against black skins, but also against yellow and against copper skins of the American Indian. The United States excluded both Japs and Chinese from immigration when our Western states became afraid of their cheap labor. And the old German Kaiser invented the slogan, "The Yellow Peril", when he wished to unite Europe against the Asiatics. And what I find interesting about this whole thing is this is 1942. So this is pre-civil rights movement in America.

• 2:13:29Jocko Willink?

  And yet, we find the military forward-leaning on civil rights, and we'll get to that. Sometimes the prejudice against the Negroes flares up in the army.

• 2:13:41Jocko Willink?

  It is not a problem, however, in a camp where it is well-understood that a soldier in the United States' uniform is a soldier. Not a white or a Negro, Christian or Jew, rich man or poor, but a soldier and as such worthy of respect.

• 2:14:01Jocko Willink?

  And not everyone feels race prejudice. There are plenty of white men who are constantly meeting and working with black, brown, and yellow men of education, culture, brains, and ability. These white men know that skin color is not a sign of inferiority or superiority, and they tend to forget about it, or at least to regard it is, or at least regard it as unimportant. These white men are numerous in Europe, South America, Asia, and Africa, where the races are mixed up in business and in politics.

• 2:14:32Jocko Willink?

  The American soldier will be on the right track when he realizes that the differences are superficial, that other races, while different from his own, are not necessarily inferior. He will know that he cannot tell just from a man's color whether that man will bind up his wounds, guide him to a hospital when he is lost, feed him if he is hungry, or help him repel enemy invaders. It will help him to remember that skin color in itself means nothing about the intelligence, wisdom, honesty, bravery, or kindliness of a man. If he studies carefully the people of other races whom he meets, he can satisfy himself that this is true.

• 2:15:16Jocko Willink?

  So again, 1942, pre-civil rights, and the military is saying, "Hey, guess what, folks? Race doesn't matter."

• 2:15:29Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, it's still a segregated army.

• 2:15:33Jocko Willink?

  But they're moving in the right direction. How to Win Friends in Foreign Lands. Every American soldier in a foreign land becomes an American diplomat. He has his role to play in making strange people into Americans, America's friends. Here are some rules he will find helpful.

• 2:15:53Jocko Willink?

  Again, this is so interesting to read, because I'm telling you, when you're in the military, you think, "Oh, these guys back in the 19th of World War II, they didn't have to worry about that. They just went over there and kicked ass." And it's like, here they were, getting the briefs. This is the brief. This is the big brief.

• 2:16:11Jocko Willink?

  And here's some things that, that will help you be a good diplomat.

• 2:16:17Jocko Willink?

  And this is applicable, like this is applicable when you go and work with a new company. Guess what? You wanna, you want, you do wanna win the hearts and minds. Here's a couple tips. One, try first of all to understand strange customs, habits and ways of thinkings. Number two, respect these customs and habits of thought, even when you can't understand them and even when they seem unpleasant or effeminate or crazy.

• 2:16:43Jocko Willink?

  Three, when you cannot respect foreign countries, then suppress your disapproval, stifle your emotions.

• 2:16:52Jocko Willink?

  When you can respect foreign customs, show it. You can win many friends for America in this simple way. Five, when you associate with foreign people, try to adopt their manners, do not ask them to adopt yours. Suppress your own peculiarities as far as possible when they are contrary to the customs of the land.

• 2:17:15Jocko Willink?

  Number seven, when foreign customs are none of your business, then mind only your own business. Number eight, be friendly. After all, the only way to make other men like you is to like them. And number nine, take people as they come. Like them for what they are, not for the way they happen to measure up to your own standards, what you expected of them.

• 2:17:38Jocko Willink?

  So, really good guidance, just in general, for humans.

• 2:17:45Speaker 01

  That was interesting there.

• 2:17:48Speaker 01

  What did it say if it's like, if their customs are effeminate?

• 2:17:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:53Speaker 01

  So I remember when I was learning Spanish in, um, high school. And they were talking about this difference between Spanish in Spain and Mexico and every, you know, it's different.

• 2:18:02Jocko Willink?

  Castilian Spanish versus, that's what they speak in Spain.

• 2:18:05Speaker 01

  Oh, for real?

• 2:18:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, in Mexico, they speak, I don't know if they call it Mexican Spanish, but it's fast.

• 2:18:12Speaker 01

  So I remember, you know, we did part of the, you know, the course. They were talking about different customs and stuff like that. So I guess, well, you know, in, in Spain, they say the S is with a lisp, like a T H, you know? Or the Z's, I don't know, it's just a little bit, yeah. But there was this one custom that I can remember that they're like, oh yeah, it's not uncommon to see like men holding hands when they're friends, you know how like, hey, you have your hand around, but guys are just holding hands. That's how, you know? And I remember thinking, hmm, that's interesting, you know, because that's something that's really far from custom here.

• 2:18:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:18:46Speaker 01

  But we will have our hand, like our arm around, you know, when you're a kid, you got your arms around your boys.

• 2:18:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but you're not, you're not just walking around like that.

• 2:18:54Speaker 01

  Sometimes, I guess, I don't know.

• 2:18:55Jocko Willink?

  You're doing it, okay, you're a kid.

• 2:18:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:58Jocko Willink?

  You're walking off the, the football field after a good play. Sure, you might have your arm around your buddy. You're not walking down the sidewalk, heading to a movie with your arm around your buddy. That's not happening.

• 2:19:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:19:09Jocko Willink?

  So you're right, and that, that custom of holding hands.

• 2:19:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:12Jocko Willink?

  Is really common throughout, like dudes, holding hands is real common throughout the rest of the world. Like lots of different places do that.

• 2:19:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:20Jocko Willink?

  And it's definitely, we definitely get some funny situations where the, the, the seal that's, you know, super macho and he's, we're over working with some, in some foreign country and some guys, you know, they're, they're talking to him. They start to like him or whatever, they start getting along.

• 2:19:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:36Jocko Willink?

  We're gonna start holding hands on our walk over to the galley. You see a team guys, you're like, not happening. Somebody needs to brief you on our customs, we don't do that.

• 2:19:48Speaker 01

  I don't know, well, according to the book.

• 2:19:50Jocko Willink?

  That's what I'm saying.

• 2:19:51Speaker 01

  You know, you can't be like.

• 2:19:52Jocko Willink?

  Occasionally you gotta, you know, just go ahead and hold hands with your homeboy.

• 2:19:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:56Jocko Willink?

  But yeah, that's the kind of thing that, that is rough for Americans, especially American dudes to get over. We're just gonna walk around holding hands.

• 2:20:06Speaker 01

  Or like, you know how in Europe they'll like kiss, not necessarily on the lips necessarily, right? But they'll kiss on the cheek, right?

• 2:20:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:13Speaker 01

  Bro, if you tried to kiss me on the cheek, that would, that would make me weird for the day. It'd jam me up.

• 2:20:18Jocko Willink?

  It would be weird for the day for me too, if I suddenly random, yeah. No, kissing is, is no factor in much of the world for a, for a guy to kiss another guy. Like, hey, good to see you. Plant one on me.

• 2:20:30Speaker 01

  Well, here.

• 2:20:31Jocko Willink?

  In America, it's like, hey, good to see you. Keep out of my personal space, bro.

• 2:20:35Speaker 01

  But actually, you know what? To be honest, um, I, I don't care. Like people, actually, some of my friends, they, you know, some, you know, like the Italian mafia kind of thing, like they'll, they'll kiss, you know, and they'll do that. So my friends, they kind of.

• 2:20:47Jocko Willink?

  You know what, you know what the, you know what thing broke down my personal space more than anything else?

• 2:20:52Speaker 01

  Yes, I do.

• 2:20:53Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:20:53Speaker 01

  Jiu Jitsu. Oh, yeah.

• 2:20:54Jocko Willink?

  The whole thing of like hugging another dude when you see him.

• 2:20:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:20:58Jocko Willink?

  I think that stemmed from Jiu Jitsu.

• 2:21:01Speaker 01

  Oh, for real?

• 2:21:01Jocko Willink?

  I don't remember ever doing that before Jiu Jitsu.

• 2:21:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:05Jocko Willink?

  I, I have to think more, but it just cause, cause Jiu Jitsu is so close anyways.

• 2:21:10Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:21:11Jocko Willink?

  That when you, you know, you're just like, that's the way it is.

• 2:21:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:15Jocko Willink?

  So Jiu Jitsu, once again, spreading, spreading customs around the world.

• 2:21:20Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:21:20Jocko Willink?

  Breaking down boundaries, breaking down boundaries. They broke down boundaries for, for me.

• 2:21:25Speaker 01

  In, in Hawaii, there's a lot of kissing that goes on mostly between, um, like between, you know, like girls and guys, like even like if it's like your friend's wife, you kiss him on the cheek. That's how like it's, in fact, if you don't, it's kind of like, hmm, that was kind of standoffish kind of thing. Not a huge deal, but it's like, it's that normal in Hawaii. Um, but guys and guys, you know, I don't, I don't think that that's an issue. Like if someone kissed me on my cheek when they saw me and it was a guy, said, oh, love you, bro, or whatever, like that wouldn't, that wouldn't move me either way. They'd be like, yeah, fine, cool. But I'm saying if you did, cause you have like a specific type of personality, you know, I'd be like, hmm, that's a new, new thing for, for Jaco, I guess.

• 2:22:08Jocko Willink?

  That would be a new exploration, I guess.

• 2:22:11Speaker 01

  Bro, there was a time, I think we were doing like a Facebook Live or something and we're talking about cauliflower ear.

• 2:22:16Jocko Willink?

  Uh huh.

• 2:22:17Speaker 01

  And, um, and I was like, oh, else I said something about lay off. Your ears are like soft. And then I went and you were right next to me and I, and I like, like flicked your ear or something. And when I watched the live later, the look on your face was like you were genuinely, not in a big way, but genuinely slightly offended by.

• 2:22:36Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that you, that you.

• 2:22:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're like, why did you flip my ear? Like it's real micro, but it was there.

• 2:22:40Jocko Willink?

  I was at my Jiu Jitsu Academy when I was in Virginia Beach and there was a buddy of mine, another SEAL. And I had gotten him into Jiu Jitsu and he was a small guy, like one forty, one forty-five scenario.

• 2:22:53Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:22:53Jocko Willink?

  And, but you know, he was like a white belt, had been training and whatnot.

• 2:22:56Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 2:22:57Jocko Willink?

  And, um.

• 2:23:00Jocko Willink?

  We were both, so now we were training and one night I showed up at the academy and we both showed up at the same time, like a similar time and in this academy, it was Gustavo Machado. And Guga is his nickname. Great dude. And so we, and Guga's academy at the time was pretty small and it had one bathroom and the bathroom is where you would change. So like put your gi on or whatever. So my buddy goes in there and he starts changing and me being just like a team guy, I'm like, whatever, I'm going in too. So, and he's a lot smaller than me and I'm a blue belt at this time. So you know, there's, there's that level of, of, uh, you know, like he, he knows that the situation unfolds.

• 2:23:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:23:44Jocko Willink?

  I can submit him. That's the way it is.

• 2:23:46Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:23:47Jocko Willink?

  And so I just bust into the bathroom and he's in there, he's changing. So he's, you know, I don't know if he was completely naked, but he was pretty close. And I come in and just drop my, rip off my shirt, drop my shorts and, and, and I hear him go, uh-oh. And then he goes, and then he goes, uh, think of a happy place. We both started laughing, but, um, yeah. Don't care about any of that stuff. So there you go. Try and, try and accept other people's customs. And don't try and impose your customs on them. Or you're not doing good for the diplomacy of the country.

• 2:24:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Like even when you go to like France, not to keep the customs thing going too long, but whether it be France or wherever, right?

• 2:24:42Speaker 01

  Here's the, it's a hard one. So let's say you go to the beach where they can go topless there at the beach, right? What if you're with your wife or whatever and your wife's like, oh, we're in France. I want to go topless, you know?

• 2:24:54Speaker 01

  How do you feel about that? Whatever, all good?

• 2:24:58Jocko Willink?

  I don't think we're going to a topless beach, actually.

• 2:25:01Speaker 01

  Okay, what if she wanted to go, though?

• 2:25:03Jocko Willink?

  She doesn't.

• 2:25:04Speaker 01

  Alright, there you go, answer. The way I would see it is-

• 2:25:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we're so conservative, right? Isn't that crazy? We're super conservative. Yeah. Actually, Puritans are legit. Yeah, I like the Puritans.

• 2:25:17Speaker 01

  Amen.

• 2:25:18Jocko Willink?

  That's the New England, there's a little thread of Puritanism up in New England, and I always liked that.

• 2:25:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can dig it. At a topless beach, I would let, totally let my wife go, totally. Except, if there was anyone there that we knew.

• 2:25:33Jocko Willink?

  Interesting.

• 2:25:33Speaker 01

  So like, if my brother's friends, or if my friend, unless it was her girlfriends, I wouldn't care, but... Yeah, if it was any of our friends that we knew, that were guys, that would bother me, I think.

• 2:25:45Jocko Willink?

  Well, my wife would just, she'd be wearing a swimsuit. This is no real big discussion, right?

• 2:25:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I dig it. Would you wear, you know how they wear like, the more, what, like, the trunks that are like Speedo-type trunks? That's how, you know?

• 2:25:59Jocko Willink?

  It's a, it's a Speedo, yeah.

• 2:26:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, would that be all you, or would you stick with this?

• 2:26:05Jocko Willink?

  I wear surf shorts.

• 2:26:06Speaker 01

  Alright, bro, you gotta, the book says-

• 2:26:08Jocko Willink?

  In Brazil, you know, that's called a sungao.

• 2:26:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, oh yeah.

• 2:26:12Jocko Willink?

  And Dean Lister, this, the...

• 2:26:17Jocko Willink?

  I'm good friends with Dean.

• 2:26:18Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:26:19Jocko Willink?

  He went through a phase of wearing a sungao.

• 2:26:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:26:22Jocko Willink?

  A lot, to train in. I didn't like that at all. Dude's basically wearing a Speedo and beating me up.

• 2:26:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:26:29Jocko Willink?

  It's not fun.

• 2:26:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he'd go with no shirt, too.

• 2:26:31Jocko Willink?

  Oh, for sure.

• 2:26:32Speaker 01

  So, yeah, that's, yeah, well, some people wear that. Conan used to do that stuff, too.

• 2:26:37Jocko Willink?

  They used to be pretty common, for... It's definitely faded, right now.

• 2:26:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 2:26:41Jocko Willink?

  The, the, the idea of just wearing the tighty-whities, sungao.

• 2:26:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, wait, grappling?

• 2:26:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, for grappling, for sure.

• 2:26:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, fully. But, on the beach, though, you go to, yeah, Brazil, or-

• 2:26:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, Brazil, that's normal, that's the custom.

• 2:26:55Speaker 01

  But not you.

• 2:26:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:56Speaker 01

  You're not gonna adopt that custom.

• 2:26:57Jocko Willink?

  I'm American, dude.

• 2:26:58Speaker 01

  I know, bro, but you, when you go to these foreign lands, American, you know, as a foreign affairs-

• 2:27:01Jocko Willink?

  You're trying to box me in.

• 2:27:02Speaker 01

  I'm just saying the book said, I didn't say the book said, you know? And you're just, you're gonna disobey that? Alright, bro, whatever you like, bro, you the man.

• 2:27:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I'm gonna stick to the tradish. That's what we do over here.

• 2:27:13Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 2:27:16Jocko Willink?

  You done? Yes, sir. Trying to frame me up? Rumor. Rumor is the most primitive way of spreading stories by passing on from mouth to mouth. It is just as inefficient, inaccurate, and unaccountable as it is primitive. Rumors are repeated by, even by those who do not believe the tales. That's an interesting statement, and it's very true. This is, this, this is an interesting statement when you look at it from the viewpoint of fake news right now and Russian bots. Rumors are repeated by even those who do not believe the tales. There is a fascination about them. The reason is that they cleverly designed, is that cleverly designed rumors give expression to something deep in the hearts of the victims.

• 2:27:57Jocko Willink?

  The fears, suspicions, forbidden hopes, or daydreams which they hesitate to voice directly.

• 2:28:05Jocko Willink?

  So if a commanding officer can keep track of the rumors that are going around among his men, he will learn a great deal about their current fears and hopes. He will have a sort of barometer that registers the rises and falls of their morale. That's a good point. People are freaked out, "We're gonna get attacked." That means everyone's afraid that they're gonna get attacked, or "We're not gonna be, we're not going home on time." Okay, everyone's concerned about that, so pay attention to those rumors.

• 2:28:33Jocko Willink?

  A rumor is not always a lie, not always a malicious story. And there are uses of rumor in war. You can use it for disruption, you can use it as a smokescreen, you can use it for discrediting news sources. This is a special technique, and we're doing that all the time now.

• 2:28:51Jocko Willink?

  There's different kinds of rumors. There's the pipe dream rumor. I thought pipe dream was a modern term. There's the pipe dream rumor, which depends on wishful thinking. There's pleasure in believing and repeating what you hope is true. The boogeyman rumor is the opposite of the pipe dream. It expresses fear, not a wish.

• 2:29:11Jocko Willink?

  The wedge-driving rumor, perhaps the most dangerous of all, is the rumor that it attempts to create hostility and distrust between allies or between particular groups within a country.

• 2:29:23Jocko Willink?

  So you have to watch out for that.

• 2:29:27Jocko Willink?

  What makes rumor work? And I think this is probably the most important part of this section. Rumors thrive on fertile soil. What soil is fertile? Lack of information about important things favor rumor. Rumors encouraged by discontent frustration boredom and idleness.

• 2:29:46Jocko Willink?

  Expectation fosters rumors.

• 2:29:50Jocko Willink?

  Censorship, since it blocks important news favors rumor.

• 2:29:58Jocko Willink?

  And from those you can get to how to control rumor. One, ensure good faith in official communications. If the public loses confidence in the reliability of the communications of the armed forces and of the press and radio, then rumors begin to spread fast. So you gotta tell the truth. Two, develop faith in leaders. People can stand, people can stand censorship and lack of news when they feel they are sure that they are not being told falsehoods and that what is being held back is being held back for good reason. That applies to all leaders from the president to the humblest schoolteacher, from the general to the corporal.

• 2:30:36Jocko Willink?

  Three, present as many facts as possible. Let the press and radio give as full and circumstantial news as they can without giving too much aid to the enemy. Let the armed forces do the same. Men want facts. When they can't get facts, they take rumor. This is something that all the time at Echelon Front, we'll go into a company and they're having problems with the rumors. And the reason that they're having problems with rumors is because the people, the leadership is not explaining what is happening. So there's, for whatever reason, they decide they're gonna close down a location. You know, maybe it's because the rent was too high and they're gonna look for a different space. Maybe it's because the market had dropped down there so much that it was, it was losing money. But what's the rumor?

• 2:31:19Jocko Willink?

  When, if you don't tell people that, the rumors, "We're going out of business." So they already shut down Pleasanton or whatever. "We're going down. Find a new job." So when you don't explain to people what's going on, it's, I just had a guy, a leader who had to get rid of somebody. And then it turned into a big email craziness where the guy that got fired, sent his closing email to everyone. I'm gonna miss you guys. I'm sorry that it didn't work out. I hope this doesn't bode bad for everyone else. Like one of those, right? Mass email.

• 2:32:01Jocko Willink?

  So, and the guy's going, what, you know, what do you think I should do? I mean, this, I, I shouldn't have to like respond. And I said, you don't have to respond. But if you don't respond, these people are gonna create, they're gonna run with everything he said.

• 2:32:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:32:17Jocko Willink?

  So craft an email and say, hey, everyone. Sorry to see Billy go. Billy, we wish you luck. Or maybe you don't include Billy on the email. In fact, I probably wouldn't, but sorry to see Billy go. Here's what happened. Here's what unfolded. Here was our financial situation. We were actually losing money in his division. Uh, not for one month, not for three months, but for 14 straight months. I had asked him repeatedly to conduct or to make these changes and he hadn't made any of the changes. And although I like Billy as a person, I couldn't sacrifice everyone at this company for one person.

• 2:33:01Jocko Willink?

  What we need is to be profitable. And with Billy in charge of that division, we are losing money. And as the leader, I can't allow my loyalty to one person to trump my loyalty to everyone here. Therefore I had to let him go. Now we've gotten that rumor under control.

• 2:33:20Jocko Willink?

  Next, keep men and women busy. Was it, what's funny is that leader was telling me like,

• 2:33:27Jocko Willink?

  this, you, you, I never had to do this before. Tell everyone in an email what's going on. Well, you never had an email, right? Emails are relatively new, you know? And so it's not like somebody was sending out an mass email, throwing darts and spears at everyone from the, from their email. Four, keep men and women busy. Prevent idleness and monotony. Empty minds are easily filled with untruths and worries. Idle hands make busy tongues. Fight rumor mongering. Campaign against rumor. Expose it as enemy propaganda. Discredit specific rumors as inaccurate and false. Caricature rumor mongers.

• 2:34:08Jocko Willink?

  And this section is called psychological warfare. Interestingly enough, death can be inflicted upon the bodies of an enemy. Destruction upon property. But defeat is a conquest of the mind.

• 2:34:26Jocko Willink?

  So legit. In total war, economic, military, and psychological action are all used to bring about submission in the enemy. Economic action deprives the enemy of vital materials. Military action destroys his armies by killing, capturing, scattering the soldiers, smashing, or capturing the guns, tanks, planes, trucks, and supplies. But it is successful psychological action that in the end deprives the enemy of his will to resist and can spoil the individual soldier as a fighting machine by removing the one thing that makes him fight. The hope of success.

• 2:35:02Jocko Willink?

  The soldier without hope is like a tank without gas. When you come right down to it, all warfare, military and economic too, is psychological warfare. Since willingness to surrender is a state of mind, all these different means are used to bring about a change of mind to convert determination to resist into willingness to accept defeat.

• 2:35:28Jocko Willink?

  The chief tool of psychological warfare, the one that is most peculiar, particularly psychological, is propaganda.

• 2:35:38Jocko Willink?

  Since propaganda tries to change opinion, the people who plan propaganda have to know all about the opinions of those they are trying to change. You can't be intelligent about changing anything unless you know what it is you're trying to change. Good point. And then it talks about how you figure out what people's opinions are. You have to gather that information and how to poll for that information. Then it talks about, a little bit about propaganda. The truth is the best propaganda. Propaganda does not have to be dishonest or lying. Hitler said that a lie will be believed if it is big enough. And it may be at first, but the big lies don't stand up. Eventually, the truth catches them and unmask them.

• 2:36:22Jocko Willink?

  The goal of propaganda is always a change in the state of mind. Good propaganda always starts from a fact.

• 2:36:34Jocko Willink?

  There is a formula for victory in psychological warfare. One, the enemy must be weary. He must be sick and tired and discouraged. Two, the second step in psychological warfare is to turn disillusionment into despair to convince the weary enemy that victory is impossible. The third step is to promise something better. Show him a way out. The cornered beast fights to the death unless he sees a way of escape. Four, after the creation of despair, after the promise of something better, there is left, there is left still one further step for psychological warfare. The enemy must be led to fix the blame on his own leaders.

• 2:37:17Jocko Willink?

  The soldier who surrenders when he could have fought on must have some excuse and he will find it if his discipline is broken down by his conviction that his own leaders are responsible for his unnecessary predicament. That last step may come of itself, but propaganda can help it. So those are some really important steps. And if you think about them.

• 2:37:43Jocko Willink?

  If you think about them from a leadership perspective, they're very, very powerful. If you think about them from a business perspective, they are very, very powerful. And when you know the offense, you also have to understand the defense against psychological warfare. Number one, don't trust the enemy. Remember that broadcasts and leaflets don't necessarily come from the sources from which they claim to come from. And by the way, that also applies to emails, articles, tweets, social media posts, Russian bots.

• 2:38:16Jocko Willink?

  Be critical, even though a story starts off with what you know to be true, don't trust the interpretation that is tacked onto the truth. And so don't accept first interpretation you hear about the reason a battle was won or lost, or the reason there isn't any more coffee. Wait, the first story is the best propaganda because it has no other story to overcome, but it is not necessarily the best for you to believe. But in general.

• 2:38:46Jocko Willink?

  Don't trust the enemy.

• 2:38:49Jocko Willink?

  Don't trust the enemy. If he turns friendly, fear him, or better, understand that he's up to no good. If you are captured, tell him just your name, rank, and serial number, and nothing else. Just because he seems friendly and well-meaning, don't spill things you think are unimportant.

• 2:39:06Jocko Willink?

  And it wraps up with this: Trust only your own leaders. They're for you. Trust them.

• 2:39:14Jocko Willink?

  And be wise. And that's a kind of an interesting way to finish up that book, is that statement: Trust them, but be wise.

• 2:39:28Jocko Willink?

  Trust your leaders, but at the same time, be wise. And you've got to pay attention to that, because it's a little counter to trust, right? It's saying, "Trust, but be wise." And I actually agree with that.

• 2:39:44Jocko Willink?

  Question everything.

• 2:39:47Jocko Willink?

  Be wise, question everything, question your leaders. Don't follow people blindly. You can put your trust in them, sure, but at the same time, you have to be wise. Be wise to question them. Be wise to try and understand their decisions. Be wise enough to disobey them, should they choose to lead in a manner that is detrimental to the mission, to the strategic objectives, and to common sense.

• 2:40:20Jocko Willink?

  And you know what? You've got to be wise, not just about your leaders, but about everyone. Seek to understand.

• 2:40:29Jocko Willink?

  Seek to understand people, which you do by watching them.

• 2:40:37Jocko Willink?

  And by observing them, and by listening them. And you know, one thing that we do, people do, is we spend a lot of time on output.

• 2:40:49Jocko Willink?

  We are sending all the time. We are talking all the time. We are putting information out all the time. Learn to be on receive mode a little bit more. Learn to listen a little bit more. Learn to capture and absorb and utilize what other people reveal.

• 2:41:09Jocko Willink?

  And when you do that, you will garner a better understanding of them, of yourself, of your team, of your enemy, the nature of the battle itself and the nature of humans themselves. So, listen and learn and understand so that you can become wise, because if you become wise, then you can win. And that wraps up this incredible book, Psychology for the Fighting Man, What You Should Know About Yourself and Others. All right.

• 2:41:53Jocko Willink?

  So, Echo, I know you've got some, hopefully, some information to tell us how to become a little bit wiser.

• 2:42:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:42:05Jocko Willink?

  In our movement down the path and our movement towards winning in all aspects of life in this total war that we are fighting on a daily basis in all directions.

• 2:42:15Speaker 01

  Yes, sir. I do.

• 2:42:17Jocko Willink?

  What do you got?

• 2:42:18Speaker 01

  We got, okay, jujitsu is one of the many ways, and now, what kind of gi are we gonna get when we do jujitsu? Origin gi, that's the answer. People have not been asking me that recently.

• 2:42:31Jocko Willink?

  That's good. That's a, well, hopefully, it's good. Hopefully, that signifies.

• 2:42:35Speaker 01

  That they already know.

• 2:42:36Jocko Willink?

  They know.

• 2:42:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. Hopefully, it doesn't signify that people are slowing down, starting jujitsu, actually, which, you know what? I know from different input that I'm receiving, because I'm kind of on receiving right now, that people are starting to do jujitsu still. Just finished my first jujitsu class, got rolled out. Just finished my jujitsu class, I'm sorry. Just finished my jujitsu.

• 2:42:57Jocko Willink?

  Just got my first stripe on that white belt.

• 2:42:58Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. So, people are getting on the path for sure.

• 2:43:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:43:01Speaker 01

  And staying, because I'm hearing about blue belts now.

• 2:43:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:43:05Speaker 01

  And we're in that mode, we've been in that mode for, for like, maybe a year almost, where people are starting to get blue belts, starting to see blue belts emerge. Stripes, for sure.

• 2:43:13Jocko Willink?

  So, we are, the, yeah, we're seeing blue belts, we're three years, a little over three years deep in the podcast. We should have our first. Hopefully, potential Jocko podcast black belt within seven years is my prediction.

• 2:43:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:43:31Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 2:43:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would say so.

• 2:43:32Jocko Willink?

  Average 10 years. How long did it take? Maybe it took a few months before people started going, okay, I'm gonna start this jujitsu stuff because these guys won't stop talking about it.

• 2:43:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:43:42Jocko Willink?

  But I was going at wrestling tournaments. This is, this was awesome. Going to wrestling tournaments and having kids that are freshmen in high school. So they're 13, 14 years old. Guess what started them grappling? Little book called Way, no, little book called Way of the Warrior Kid.

• 2:44:00Speaker 01

  Way of the Warrior, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:44:01Jocko Willink?

  Way of the Warrior Kid got them on the path. And so they started that when they were 11 years old, two, three years ago. And they read Way of the Warrior Kid. I want to learn how to wrestle. And then the kids come up to me, hey, sir.

• 2:44:14Jocko Willink?

  My name's Freddie. And I started wrestling because I got into jujitsu. So, thank you. So that's one of the best things that's happened to me in a long time. Because, why? Because I know that that kid is gonna have a legitimately better life because they know how to do jujitsu and wrestle. Their life will be better. So, if you're doing jujitsu.

• 2:44:39Speaker 01

  You get an origin gi.

• 2:44:41Jocko Willink?

  Get an origin gi, made in America, and designed specifically for aikido? No. For judo? No. For hopkido? Nope. Designed for one thing, Brazilian jujitsu. That's what it's made for.

• 2:44:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, and not in a generic way.

• 2:44:59Jocko Willink?

  Sewn for. Buy black belt. Buy, buy jujitsu black belt people. Made it. That's legit.

• 2:45:09Speaker 01

  Very legit.

• 2:45:11Jocko Willink?

  Also got some other clothes up there, t-shirts, sweatshirts. We're working on boots. I can't talk about that yet because then people will be on me for the next whatever. As we try and get, we, we have the machinery in place. We got models being built. I have a pair. I know you don't have a pair because you're not quite, you know, on the inner, inner circle.

• 2:45:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:45:32Jocko Willink?

  You looked really despondent when I said that.

• 2:45:34Speaker 01

  That's okay.

• 2:45:35Jocko Willink?

  I broke, I broke his heart.

• 2:45:37Speaker 01

  Anyway.

• 2:45:37Jocko Willink?

  No kiss for you later.

• 2:45:41Speaker 01

  You get all these things at originmaine.com. Other stuff on there like supplements, most important supplements. Okay, I lift weights, whatever. And I've always had probably like maybe fifteen years, I would say. I've always had like this elbow, like I wouldn't call it tendonitis, although I have had tendonitis in my elbow. It's just an elbow thing. Yeah. And so when I first got in joint warfare and the krill oil, it would go, it went away completely. Right, went away completely. So recently I got like heavy back into living, like, man, I can, you can go, right? So it sort of starts to come back, but now it's like at this phase where I'll feel like right now, if I try to do like a

• 2:46:24Speaker 01

  close grip push up or something like, like right now in this cold room, I'll feel it. But the amount of sets that I have to do to warm it up are now reduced to one. One, usually it was every single set of, it was like three, four sets of warm up. Then my first set, I could feel it, but I could over, it was like that. So it's like, and I'm getting older, I'm not getting younger. And it seems obvious, but given the way my elbow feels, you know, it's not that obvious.

• 2:46:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the reviews on people for joint warfare are awesome.

• 2:46:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:46:53Jocko Willink?

  People are, they, they get that where something's been bothering them for so long. And they get on the joint warfare, throw on the krill oil and you feel good.

• 2:47:03Speaker 01

  It's. That's what makes it, in my opinion, the most important supplement or kind of supplement.

• 2:47:09Jocko Willink?

  It allows you to work harder.

• 2:47:10Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:47:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:47:13Speaker 01

  So true. So yeah, joint warfare, boom, get that one, super krill oil, some added antioxidants in there.

• 2:47:19Jocko Willink?

  And then discipline, which is, it's a combination of two things. It's a little physical energy boost and a mental cognitive increase in capacity to think. So that's discipline, the drink, discipline, go is that. But it's in the form of a pill. So, or wait, they call it a capsule.

• 2:47:41Speaker 01

  Caps.

• 2:47:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's a capsule. I told Brian at.

• 2:47:46Speaker 01

  Be little.

• 2:47:47Jocko Willink?

  I was like, hey, man. Discipline, I'm addicted to the drink. Which I love it. Thank you. For, for helping me get this to the world. However, if I'm gonna go up on stage and talk for two hours, I can't pound two bottles of discipline. You know why? It's a real simple reason. It is what it is. It's a biological reason. Drink two liters of water and you're gonna have to go to the bathroom.

• 2:48:14Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 2:48:15Jocko Willink?

  I don't want to have to stop. Hey, hold on a minute. Crowd of 700 people. I'm just gonna go hit the head real quick. That's not happening. So, took the discipline formula. We made it into a capsule. Now I can just pop three discipline when I'm gonna need. When I'm gonna need that little edge.

• 2:48:36Speaker 01

  Little edge. You don't, as Jason Gardner put it to me. The word searching gets reduced to zero. Like you don't word search anymore in your head, you know, when you're saying stuff. The, so is there, okay, then there's that energy drink. One version, right?

• 2:48:51Jocko Willink?

  The energy drink is coming. It's not out yet.

• 2:48:55Speaker 01

  Well, the video with JP.

• 2:48:57Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:48:58Speaker 01

  Origin, boom. Clearly, the energy drink is made.

• 2:49:02Jocko Willink?

  It is made, but it's not in production yet. And I'm gonna go into why, well, the reason why it's not in production is because of the way we are producing it, which is a way that no one else is doing. Cause the bottom line is, there's all kinds of, what'd you call it? Energy? There's all kinds of energy drinks out there right now. They're not good for you. The closest thing you can get to an energy drink that's good for you is actually Jocka White Tea. That's the closest thing you can get because it tastes good. It's got some caffeine, some antioxidants. We're taking that to the next level with the Discipline Go. Ready to drink in a can. Tastes delicious and it's actually good for you. This is the difference. So, that'll be out.

• 2:49:44Jocko Willink?

  I'm guessing, we're probably not looking for another two months, so no reason to get all excited yet. I'll let you know when it's all out there. In the meantime, the Discipline Powder is a good variant for now. But yeah, the Discipline Go in the can, it's really, it's nailed it.

• 2:50:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I got four samples. They were gone. I like, I mean, I'm down, I don't drink energy drinks, but if there's like one there that like I know is gonna taste good, I'm kinda, I'm kinda, I like those, you know? So that one was like, oh, they were gone.

• 2:50:15Jocko Willink?

  And that's the thing, is it? It it tastes good, which is awesome. It's actually good for you, you know, there's no, it's just, yeah, so.

• 2:50:25Jocko Willink?

  Good to go. Also got milk. If you want to get on the milk train.

• 2:50:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, for some additional protein.

• 2:50:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, in addition to your rib eye steaks.

• 2:50:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, and here's the thing, like.

• 2:50:34Jocko Willink?

  In addition to your tomahawk rib eye steak.

• 2:50:36Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Here's the thing, you need additional protein. If you're working out, you do, straight up. Otherwise, your body, what, eats itself? You want that to happen?

• 2:50:45Jocko Willink?

  And I'll tell you what, even if you don't need additional protein, you know what you need? Dessert.

• 2:50:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:50:50Jocko Willink?

  So luckily, milk is its own, why, what is milk? What does this mean? It means really tasty nectar that is gonna make you stronger. And you can have it for dessert. When you get done having it for dessert, you won't get done with it and think, oh, I still want some ice cream. No, you'll be like, I'm done with it and I'm done and I feel great.

• 2:51:10Speaker 01

  We're good. You, what, okay, so I made this, here's a new little dish. In my little, I don't know, whatever.

• 2:51:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:51:20Speaker 01

  So I go egg white omelet with like, you know, I'll take like leftovers.

• 2:51:27Jocko Willink?

  You put milk in an omelet?

• 2:51:27Speaker 01

  No, no, negative. So, you know, for example, my, my wife made pot roast, right? So it's like pot roast, there's little carrots in there, you know, there's potatoes in there, yes. So I'll take some leftover pot roast and I'll make an egg white omelet with the pot roast, right? It seems kind of whatever, but whatever the leftovers is, for the most part, I'll make an omelet with it. So I made it and it's good. That's like good nutrients right there. That's a solid like post workout, whatever. Oh, yeah. Tastes good too. And then, you know, no sugar, no, you know, it's like legit and tastes really good. So I pound that. So it's not last night, the night before. I pound that, I'm like, man, I'm, so not only did I get a good, healthy,

• 2:52:07Speaker 01

  delicious little meal that I made, I'm like, you know how you have, so you're kind of in the mood for some dessert, you know? And in a way, in a weak mind.

• 2:52:17Speaker 01

  In a manner of speaking, in a week, you can be like, hey, I had such a healthy dinner.

• 2:52:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:52:22Speaker 01

  I can kind of, you know, exercise some freedom on the dessert a little bit. But I mixed up the milk. Double win-win. Boom. Stayed on the disciplined path.

• 2:52:34Jocko Willink?

  And when you're, when you're kind of full like that, sometimes you eat a giant steak, but you're still, even though you're pretty full, you want to have a little dessert.

• 2:52:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:52:41Jocko Willink?

  Get that little one scoop hitter.

• 2:52:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:52:43Jocko Willink?

  Little one scoop hitter.

• 2:52:45Speaker 01

  My little two scoops.

• 2:52:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And lately I will say, I've been mixing less milk and more milk.

• 2:52:51Speaker 01

  Okay, yes.

• 2:52:51Jocko Willink?

  It's thicker like that. Oh, yeah. And it's so good.

• 2:52:54Speaker 01

  It's like a little cream.

• 2:52:55Jocko Willink?

  It's a straight up milkshake. Get that hitter, as my brother Theo Vaughn would say.

• 2:53:01Speaker 01

  True. Also Warrior Kid Milk. That's for the kids.

• 2:53:04Jocko Willink?

  You think it's for kids until you try that strawberry. They're gonna be getting some of that, too.

• 2:53:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. But that's a good one. This was strawberry chocolate. Is it? That's the only two right now, right?

• 2:53:14Jocko Willink?

  Yes, right now.

• 2:53:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And then the strawberry, that's gonna go to the regular milk pretty soon.

• 2:53:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's coming. We're working on it.

• 2:53:22Speaker 01

  Also, Jaco has a store. You know, stay on the path. Good, of course. Stay on the path. But if you want to represent, while you're on the path, we've got some shirts for you if you want. Discipline equals freedom. It's a good one. It gives two versions of that, by the way.

• 2:53:35Jocko Willink?

  Old one and new one.

• 2:53:36Speaker 01

  Old one, new one, you know, yes. And they're both in the game. Full, good ways to represent. Some hoodies on there. Also more rash guards. So you want to represent, and people have been representing tournaments, competitions.

• 2:53:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:53:49Speaker 01

  You know, with get after it, you know, on the rash guard. These are all, yeah, so really good ones.

• 2:53:53Jocko Willink?

  When you see people straight representing.

• 2:53:56Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:53:56Jocko Willink?

  In the competition.

• 2:53:57Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Big time. A lot of cool stuff. Again, hats, flex fit hats. You know, I think we might discontinue the trucker hats, but, you know, we're. See what I did there? Look at that. Look at that. All right, we have truckers hats.

• 2:54:13Jocko Willink?

  Zero credit for selling that. That was so bad.

• 2:54:17Speaker 01

  Well, we have both truckers hat and flexed it hat. Also hoodies. Oh, wait, I already said hoodies. But anyway, go on there, jacostore.com. If you like something, get something. Represent, man, in the wild.

• 2:54:30Jocko Willink?

  Support.

• 2:54:30Speaker 01

  It's true. Also.

• 2:54:32Jocko Willink?

  Yourself.

• 2:54:32Speaker 01

  Jaco White Tea. Okay. In a can, yes. Okay.

• 2:54:38Speaker 01

  Little bit of caffeine in there, antioxidants, deadlift eight thousand pounds. That's good. It's good. Like my wife deadlifts eight thousand pounds, you know. More of a mild taste compared to the energy drink. I know.

• 2:54:52Jocko Willink?

  You mean, energy drink in general?

• 2:54:54Speaker 01

  No, your, your. Should we not call that an energy drink?

• 2:55:00Jocko Willink?

  I wouldn't. I would call it something else. I would call it discipline. Go.

• 2:55:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know. I think, yeah, well, the jury's still out on that because it's kind of an energy drink.

• 2:55:11Jocko Willink?

  The problem is, energy drinks are not good for you.

• 2:55:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, you don't want the stigma.

• 2:55:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, energy drinks are literally bad for you.

• 2:55:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. All right. Well, we'll think about that one. Nonetheless, chocolate white tea, not an energy drink. It's actual tea, certified, certified organic. USDA.

• 2:55:29Speaker 01

  You know, certified organic. So yeah, you can get that one in a can or what do you call it? Loose. No, that's not loose leaf. Dry. In the bags or whatever. Yeah, that's a good one.

• 2:55:41Jocko Willink?

  Also subscribe to the podcast. If you don't subscribe to the podcast, then Echo is going to keep telling you. If I don't tell you as quickly as possible to subscribe to the podcast, so do that. And don't forget about the Warrior Kid podcast because your kids need to be shown the path, and I hate to say this, not by you. Well, no, in addition to you telling them, in addition to you trying to convince them. Because if you remember when you were a kid, you didn't want to listen to your dad, you didn't want to listen to your mom. You kind of always thought, well, you maybe just, I might look, I might only be 11 years old, but I think I know a little bit better than my dad. Right? For sure.

• 2:56:21Speaker 01

  At the very least, he don't understand. So.

• 2:56:23Jocko Willink?

  Uncle Jake can talk to your kid, get him on the path, let him know what's up. Also, you got the Warrior Kids Soap at the irishoaksranch.com. Young Aiden, young Aiden making soap, having his own business, buying the material, growing the material. Get some of that so that you can stay clean. You got YouTube. Subscribe to the YouTube channel. So that you can see Echo's legit videos.

• 2:56:51Speaker 01

  Technically, you don't have to subscribe.

• 2:56:53Jocko Willink?

  Well, just check it out then.

• 2:56:55Speaker 01

  But yeah, if you want to subscribe, it's a good one.

• 2:56:57Jocko Willink?

  Subscribe, like and comment.

• 2:57:00Speaker 01

  Anyway, for those that don't know, we do have a YouTube channel if you if you're interested in the video version.

• 2:57:07Jocko Willink?

  If you want to see what Echo Charles looks like.

• 2:57:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:57:09Jocko Willink?

  If you want to comment that Echo looks jacked, or is jacked, or is yoked.

• 2:57:14Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:57:15Jocko Willink?

  Then you can do that there.

• 2:57:16Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:57:16Jocko Willink?

  Don't forget about Psychological Warfare. It's an album to help you get through moments of weakness by hearing pragmatic information about why you should stay on the path. That is at iTunes, Google Play, MP3 platforms.

• 2:57:29Speaker 01

  It's true. Also, your home gym, when you're expanding, because we're always expanding. I know I'm expanding.

• 2:57:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:57:36Speaker 01

  Get your stuff. Go to Onnit, so Onnit.com/Jaco. Good spot. Good equipment of all kinds for gym. Also, information on there. So, yeah, when you get into kettlebells, because you got to do kettlebells.

• 2:57:49Jocko Willink?

  Kettlebells are good.

• 2:57:50Speaker 01

  Yes. So you want some info on there? Boom, that's where you can get a lot of good stuff on there. Go to Onnit.com/Jaco.

• 2:57:57Jocko Willink?

  I wrote a bunch of books. If you want to get the books, go to JacoPodcast.com and then click on the various books. Mikey and the Dragon is a book that I wrote. It's for little kids, but everyone gets something out of it. And it's a cool story that rhymes.

• 2:58:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's delivered very eloquently. If, I don't know if eloquent, the word eloquent is even compatible with with you as a as a whole concept or whatever, but I will all use it very eloquent.

• 2:58:33Jocko Willink?

  Check. So, Mikey and the Dragons for kids, also for kids, Way the Warrior Kid and Way the Warrior Kid 2, which is called Mark's Mission, and also Way the Warrior Kid 3, which is called Where There's a Will. And that book is coming out in the spring. Get your kid these books because they will point them in the right direction on so many things. I wish I had these books when I was a kid so badly. And I hope that the kids you know read these books and get themselves on the path. And if an adult you know needs to get on the path, get him the Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. Which tells people how to get after it. Everybody needs to know how to get after it.

• 2:59:17Jocko Willink?

  In my opinion, it's a good little daily read. It's not a normal book. It's different.

• 2:59:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:59:26Jocko Willink?

  Very different. So check that one out. And then of course, there is Extreme Ownership, the first book that I wrote with my brother Leif Babbin, and also, we just released last year, Dichotomy of Leadership. And I'm starting to think, there's people starting to comment that Dichotomy of Leadership is now starting to emerge from the shadow of his older brother.

• 2:59:52Jocko Willink?

  And we're starting to think that Dichotomy of Leadership is going to be a little bit more yoked, a little bit more jacked, and may usurp the older brother, may end up being the one that people really dial into. So, check him out.

• 3:00:07Speaker 01

  Also, speaking of books, if you want this book, Psychology for the Fighting Man, or any of the books that Jaco covers, got them on a page on JacoPodcast.com. On the top, Books from Episodes, that's what it says on the top menu. Books from Episodes, boom, I got them by episode, boom, available, right there, get them.

• 3:00:26Jocko Willink?

  If you want to know my reading, my reading list, my recommended reading list, that's my recommended reading list.

• 3:00:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:00:34Jocko Willink?

  That's it. It's JacoPodcast.com. Go to the little tab that says Books from the Episodes.

• 3:00:40Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 3:00:40Jocko Willink?

  And then you can get them. So that's that. That's a bunch of books, books that I've written, other books that you can be educated by, books that have educated me. Echelon Front Leadership Consultancy, We Solve Problems Through Leadership. That's what we do, me, Leif Babbin, JP Denell, Dave Burke, Flynn Cochran, Mike Sorelli, Mike Beima, and we are at echelonfront.com. Also, we have the muster coming up, 2019, May 23 and 24 in Chicago, September 19th and 20th in Denver, December 4th and 5th in Sydney.

• 3:01:15Jocko Willink?

  Go to extremeownership.com to register. Every event that we have done has sold out. These are absolutely going to sell out too. And I thought, I just talked to our Ops Director, Jamie, and she's like, yeah, we're ahead on sales. And I was like, cool. It's glad, I'm glad we got so many more seats. And she's like, what? And I go, well, don't we have, don't we have, you know, 1,200 seats or something? She's like, no, the biggest we could get. It's still, it's basically the same size as San Francisco. So it's 750 or something like that. So it's going to sell out very quickly. So if you want to come, please just go and get on it. EF Online,

• 3:01:55Jocko Willink?

  online interactive training, leadership training. We did this because Echelon Front

• 3:02:06Jocko Willink?

  is not big enough and cannot grow quickly enough to train everyone that requests training. So what we did to scale what we do is put it, what we do into an online platform, interactive, very engaging. It's what we do with companies. And now we can do it through the computer screen. So EF Online, go and check that out. And finally, EF Overwatch is where we take proven leaders from the battlefield, from special operations and combat aviation,

• 3:02:44Jocko Willink?

  and we embed them into companies where they can then help that company lead and win. That's at efoverwatch.com. If you're a, one of those veterans looking for a follow-on career, or you're one of those companies that needs people that understand the mindset that we talk about in the books and on this podcast, go to efoverwatch.com.

• 3:03:12Jocko Willink?

  And thank you for listening. And if you haven't had enough of us in three hours straight, and you want to communicate with us some more, that's fine. We are available on the interwebs, on Twitter, on Instagram, and on F A C B O G B O app. Echo is at Echo Charles, and I am at Jocko Willink. And of course, thanks to all our military personnel for standing watch around the world. You protect our freedom. And we are indebted to you. We are also indebted to our police and law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, and E M Ts, correctional officers, Border Patrol, all first responders. You keep us

• 3:03:53Jocko Willink?

  safe. And we thank you for your service and sacrifice as well. And to everyone out there listening, remember how many lessons this book gives about the way we think, about the way we act, about the way we follow, and about the way we lead. And remember

• 3:04:14Jocko Willink?

  that a good leader doesn't handle his men. A good leader handles himself. That's some of the best advice for leadership in life I have heard in a long time. So follow it. Handle yourself. Keep yourself in check. Keep yourself on the path. Lead yourself so that you become a person that others will follow. And they will follow you on the path. The path of discipline, the path of righteousness, and the path that leads to peace and to freedom.

• 3:04:52Jocko Willink?

  So until next time, this is Echo and Jaco. Out.