167: Lessons on War, Leadership, and Life, w/ SEAL Master Chief, Jason Gardner, Pt.1

0:00:00 - Opening 0:02:50 - Master Chief, Jason Gardner. War, Life, and Leadership. 2:12:00 - Support: How to stay on THE PATH. 2:47:46 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 167 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening.

• 0:10Jocko Willink?

  Beware of that trap.

• 0:14Jocko Willink?

  Choose, dear Beowulf, the better part. Eternal rewards. Do not give way to pride.

• 0:24Jocko Willink?

  For a brief while, your strength is in bloom.

• 0:29Jocko Willink?

  But it fades quickly. And soon there will follow illness or the sword to lay you low. Or a sudden fire or surge of water or jabbing blade or javelin from the air or repellent age.

• 0:47Jocko Willink?

  Your piercing eye will dim and darken.

• 0:53Jocko Willink?

  And death will arrive, dear warrior. To sweep you away.

• 1:04Jocko Willink?

  And that right there is some timeless wisdom offered by the epic poem Beowulf. The first poem in the English language, of course, it's Old English, which is mutually unintelligible from the modern English that we speak, but it has some incredible translations if you want to read it.

• 1:33Jocko Willink?

  I recommend the Seamus Haney version.

• 1:37Jocko Willink?

  But regardless of the translation that you get.

• 1:42Jocko Willink?

  The story remains as do the lessons.

• 1:47Jocko Willink?

  Lessons based on war.

• 1:50Jocko Willink?

  And leadership.

• 1:53Jocko Willink?

  And really human nature.

• 1:57Jocko Willink?

  And we find these lessons over and over and over again throughout history and in different cultures and in different wars. And we all continue to learn every day from history and from each other. And it certainly seems that there are some principles that are universal. There are some underlying unifying theories that bind together and thread through leadership and war and human nature.

• 2:36Jocko Willink?

  And the more we experience in life, the more clearly we can see the thread of these unifying theories. And tonight, I happen to have on the podcast an individual with a lot of experience. Experience in war, experience in leadership, and experience in life. And he also happens to be someone that I grew up with in the SEAL teams, who is a great friend and who just retired a couple days ago as a SEAL Master Chief.

• 3:21Jocko Willink?

  My friend and my brother by the name of Jason Gardner. Jason?

• 3:28Jason Gardner?

  Jaco.

• 3:29Jocko Willink?

  Thanks for coming on, man.

• 3:31Jason Gardner?

  Hey, I'm really excited to be here.

• 3:33Jocko Willink?

  And it's kind of cool because I know that you listen to the podcast and you were one of the first guys that reached out to me. I don't even know what number podcast it was, but you reached out to me really early and said, "Hey, this is kick ass, man. Keep doing it." And then, you know, as the podcast kind of spread, I started hearing from more guys, but that was a pretty, you were the, literally the first guy that, that reached out to me and said, "Bro, keep it going." And I said, "Cool, we'll go."

• 4:05Jason Gardner?

  That's awesome. Yeah. And like Iris is the one that said, told me, "Hey, Jaco's got a podcast." And I'm like, "Oh, okay." She goes, "You don't know how to listen to podcasts, do you?" I said, "No." Gave her my phone. She got it set up. It was episode six and within a week and a half, because of my commute, I was caught up and then just dialed in from there on out and talking about it, sharing it with a lot of other guys. And it's been a huge help to me.

• 4:33Jocko Willink?

  That's awesome. And yeah, if anyone hasn't put this together yet, uh, this is Iris Gardner's husband and Iris was on podcast number 70. So if you want to listen to that, you can hear us talk about you, I guess indirectly because you were still active duty in the days. So, all right, let's get to your story. Let's talk about you.

• 4:59Jason Gardner?

  Okay.

• 5:01Jocko Willink?

  Where'd you grow up?

• 5:03Jason Gardner?

  Uh, my dad was in the Marine Corps, so we moved around a little bit, kind of settled down up in San Clemente, here in Orange County. Grew up up there, uh, swam, played water polo, did that through high school. And then, uh, yeah, I think started doing a martial art called College of Campa and one of the instructors was a team guy in Vietnam. And back in the day, you know, I had, no one knew what SEALs were. And then my parents had found out that, that he was a SEAL in Vietnam. And they're like, "Oh, you know, this guy was a SEAL." And I'm like, "Well, what is that?" And then they said, "These guys are awesome. It's really hard training. They're water warriors," which was super appealing growing up at the beach and

• 5:49Jason Gardner?

  water polo and swimming. So then I just latched on to that and. That's what what I got after and enlisted right out after high school.

• 5:58Jocko Willink?

  So was your dad was your dad kind of like the stereotypical Marine that was just like

• 6:04Jason Gardner?

  Oh, no.

• 6:05Jocko Willink?

  Like acting like a drill sergeant.

• 6:06Jason Gardner?

  No, my dad, my dad was super laid back, easy, just an easy going good guy. And he was a JAG officer in the Marine Corps. So he was like an attorney. Um, but but not definitely not your stereotypical Marine. And at one point I was thinking about going in the Marine Corps and he talked me out of it. Like, don't do it. Don't do it. And he's like, hey, the Navy, the SEAL teams is closed loop. Sure, you could go to recon, but at the time it wasn't closed loop. So you'd go in and out, in and out. He goes, you don't want to do that. You want to do this. And then.

• 6:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the Marine Corps now has Marsoc, which you can just go in and you can be a special operations guy for your whole career.

• 6:45Speaker 02

  What is closed loop? What does that mean?

• 6:47Jocko Willink?

  Meaning, so what I just said about the Marine Corps, like now you can go in the Marine Corps and you can just be in special operations for your whole career. Before you could go for what would, how long of a tour? Would they do two or three deployments at a special operations type unit?

• 7:03Jason Gardner?

  I think it's like a three year tour or six years they would do to command. And then they'd have to go somewhere else. They might go back to an infantry unit or something like that.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  And that's called like an open loop?

• 7:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, open loop, meaning that you don't necessarily stay in the job you want the whole time.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  Gotcha.

• 7:17Jason Gardner?

  Yeah.

• 7:18Jocko Willink?

  Now, at what point did you start listening to heavy metal, punk rock and hardcore music? Cause I know that's the first like connection you and I had, which I don't know. Is there some weird sort of thing when you just like look at some other guy? And you go, this guy's into hardcore. I, I, I mean, it's not, it's not like I walked up to you and said, hey, what kind of music do you like?

• 7:41Jason Gardner?

  No.

• 7:42Jocko Willink?

  It was just like immediate, you just know, right?

• 7:44Jason Gardner?

  Yeah, it, I don't know what the bona fides are actually on that. Um, yeah, shoot, I explored around with like a lot of different music and it just wasn't enough. You know, it's like, oh, okay. Well, I'll listen to the Doors, meh. Stray Cats, I liked them for a little bit, meh. Then the, and it was kind of an investment to buy an album back in those days or to find even any punk rock. So I found, I think, like a Dead Kennedys album, Fresh Fruit for Rotting Vegetables. That was kind of like my gateway drug. Uh, and then I'm like, oh, okay. This is really getting me moving.

• 8:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 8:21Jason Gardner?

  Then I remember like, I think I was fourteen or fifteen when I went to my first show up at UC Irvine. It was like PIL, which was Johnny Rotten's band.

• 8:31Jocko Willink?

  Oh dang.

• 8:31Jason Gardner?

  And uh, I, I saw, I, you know, and in the mosh pit.

• 8:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 8:37Jason Gardner?

  Was just like, what is this?

• 8:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 8:40Jason Gardner?

  I want to live here.

• 8:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 8:42Jason Gardner?

  I want to get a mailbox right outside this thing and just stay in here at this point of friction, circling around and around forever. And I was like, boom, then that, that was it. Then, you know, discovered GBH and, and Orange County had a really, really like probably a, one of the biggest scenes in the world at the time for all the music that would come through there.

• 9:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 9:03Jason Gardner?

  Or was going out of there. So GBH, uh, the DI, Uniform Choice was, was guys that I glommed in later in high school. Those guys were awesome and, and.

• 9:15Jocko Willink?

  You knew the guys from Uniform Choice?

• 9:17Jason Gardner?

  No, I didn't, but I really liked their music and I liked their message because some of the other stuff, like, okay, Rage Against the Machine, for instance.

• 9:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 9:26Jason Gardner?

  I like the music, I, I just can't get behind the lyrics.

• 9:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 9:29Jason Gardner?

  You know, or Cro-Mags, that was a great example.

• 9:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 9:32Jason Gardner?

  Love the, the music and I like the lyrics too, cause it's good like get after it stuff, so.

• 9:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 9:38Jason Gardner?

  And then there just maybe that, that buzzing. I don't, I don't know what guys did in other wars when.

• 9:46Jocko Willink?

  For sure. No, going, going into combat, listening to Kill Em All instead of listening to Puff the Magic Dragon, right? That, that's literally what's, what Americans were listening to. Like they were listening to Puff the Magic Dragon and those folk music bands and I mean, I guess maybe at the outside edge, somebody might've been listening to Hendrix or something that's a little harder.

• 10:08Jason Gardner?

  Yeah.

• 10:08Jocko Willink?

  But, yeah. Yeah, to me, there's a, there's a, this is just straight up the way it is. Some human beings, I would say normally boys, have this thing in their head that wants to.

• 10:25Jocko Willink?

  Fight and wants to break things.

• 10:29Jason Gardner?

  Yeah.

• 10:29Jocko Willink?

  And, and, and when you hear your example, the doors, you're, you're like, okay, well, this is, you know, you hear light my fire and you're okay, like I'm kind of, I'm feeling a little something there. And then you hear the chromax and you go, oh, okay. You hear motorhead and you go, oh, okay. This is, this is me. This is what I'm talking about right here. This, I completely understand this music right now.

• 10:53Jason Gardner?

  Yeah. And then that just, and they can just pick it up in other people.

• 10:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And that's, yeah. And then, so.

• 11:04Jason Gardner?

  That, and then like I stuck with punk rock for a long time. And then a buddy of mine in high school, who I swam with Steve Rosenthal is like, hey, you should check out Metallica.

• 11:16Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah.

• 11:17Jason Gardner?

  And then they were like, they crossed me over to where I'm like, oh no, now I like speed metal too. And then finally I found my way to Slayer and kind of stuck with them forever. And Slayer's on a continual loop in the back of my head all the time and it's always surfacing up or down. Um, but now it's like really by exception that I listen to it because I just can't listen to it all day. I can be that fired up, but still really good, man.

• 11:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's, it is. And so then you enlist in the Navy. You go to BUDS and this time, what year, what year is it?

• 11:50Jason Gardner?

  Uh, I went in eighty seven and then went up to Great Lakes, did Gunner's Mate, A school up there. Uh, and so I think I checked into BUDS sometime in May or June of eighty eight.

• 12:03Jocko Willink?

  And how prepared were you for BUDS? Cause you know, a lot of people that listen to this, will think they want to go to BUDS or whatever, and they're paranoid about what they can do to prepare. And I know, I'm assuming you probably did something similar to what I did because we had no idea what was going on. I had no idea what the training was like. The video, you probably watched the same video as me. If they even had that video, the B someone special. Yeah. So you watched the B someone special and you think, well, in order to get ready for the SEAL teams, what I need to do is look cool.

• 12:31Jason Gardner?

  Yeah.

• 12:33Jocko Willink?

  Wear all black.

• 12:34Jason Gardner?

  Yeah.

• 12:35Jocko Willink?

  And be cool. But there was no, hey, here's the protocol to get good at pull ups. Here's the protocol to get good at swimming with fins. None of that. No.

• 12:45Jason Gardner?

  And it then, you know, like in boot camp, I found that we actually got out of shape. Me and the other, there was another guy in, in my boot camp class that actually just retired as a mass chief as well. And we would go in the bathroom and do pull ups in on the stalls just to try and stay in shape. Um, one thing I didn't do enough is run. So I hated running and then I was in every goon squad until

• 13:11Jason Gardner?

  I think third phase, then it clicked. And I was already a really good swimmer. So the water wasn't an issue for me, but I was just hammered in a goon squad. You know, it's when you're towards the back of the deal and, and they're like, okay, you guys are done. You're done with this run. The rest of you start doing pushups, hit the surf and they just mess with you forever. Feel like the first, all through first phase, every time run I threw up. Because I was gonna, I was like inches in front of failing and just had to reach deep and, and push, push it across the finish line.

• 13:46Jocko Willink?

  You said there were some, what, what happened at San Clemente? You were telling me the other day about something that happened San Clemente. What was that? So it was like before you started training, right?

• 13:53Jason Gardner?

  In pre-training, they said, hey, we need volunteers to come out to San Clemente Island to help out with the, the class that was, was out there. And you just kind of go and work behind the scenes with the staff out there at San Clemente Island. And so I think like the second night, uh, I was out there, we were in Chow. And instructors and students were eating in the same room. It was this little Quonset hut and they had, it was taco night. And so there was a big sign up there when you went, went up to get served, like, hey, only two tacos. So when I got up there, the cook is like, there was only one taco left. He goes, hey, just come back when I, I'm making some more. Come back up here and get one. So I ate my one taco, went back up to get my next one.

• 14:35Jason Gardner?

  He's like, here you go. And as I'm walking with my tray back, one of the instructors says to me, hey, didn't you already eat two tacos? And I'm like, oh my goodness, I didn't know what to do. So I said, no. And then I tried to keep going. Well, it was the phase officer. You know, he wasn't wearing any rank insignia. So then all the other instructors leap up, they're all huge. And they just start screaming at me and I'm thinking to myself, I've already ruined it. I'm done. So I didn't even eat the taco. I just got out of there and I went back to where, you know, our little hut where we were sleeping. And I just went to bed. It was like at 5pm because I was like, oh no.

• 15:19Jason Gardner?

  Then the next morning at 4am, there's a knock on the door and one of the guys opens up the door and it's one of the students that's actually in the class. And he goes, hey, is there a gardener in here? And then everyone just looks at me, you know? And uh, I'm like, yeah, I'm back here. And they go, they want you down at the beach. So I got dressed and went down there. You know, I feel like I'm going to Castle Dracula. I'm like, oh, what are they gonna do to me? So the instructors are all circled up and the phase officer is there. He goes, gardener, get over here. So I go over there and he goes, he hands me a thermometer and he goes, we need to get the water temp. So you're gonna go out in the water up to your waist.

• 15:58Jason Gardner?

  And you're gonna stay there and do not, I need you to go all the way to your waist and you're gonna stay there for two minutes. Don't come in early. And I'm like, hoo ya. So I take it and I just go. I go out until I'm just treading water. Because I'm like, I see how this is gonna go, right? So then, and I didn't even look at my watch. I just stayed there until finally they're like, get in here, dummy. So I come running in and hand him the uh, thermometer and they check it. It was like 53 degrees or something like that. And they're like, get out of here gardener. And uh, they did, did this like one other time and then they just decided it's, it's, it's not gonna be fun to pick on this guy. And that's what I kind of figured was going on. I just like, oh, okay.

• 16:41Jason Gardner?

  Um, don't give him a reaction. Don't give him a reaction. And uh, and then they, they went away and found someone else to mess with. But the guys in the class later told me that the group of pre-trainees that was out there before our group came out, like they had one guy that they would just harass. And they would just make him burst into tears every time and he ended up quitting before he even started training.

• 17:04Jason Gardner?

  But you know, you talk about this a lot on the, the podcast, how SEAL platoons are just super aggressive and like anybody looking for any weakness. And if you show a weakness, it's gonna get hammered. And then you're like, No response, no response. You gotta, you gotta have normal face, stifle your emotions, or your life's gonna be miserable until you figure out how to deal with whatever that weakness is.

• 17:27Jocko Willink?

  The thing, there's a couple of things that really bother me in the world. And I won't tell anyone what they are. No one knows. Not one single person knows what really, really, like, there's a couple of things. If I, if a SEAL platoon would have known these things, I would have been eaten alive. But I never, ever say, and I won't tell anyone right now, ever. I'll put it in my will when I die. It'll be like, hey, you guys missed a huge opportunity. Cause, and you know, and sometimes, you know, it's, it's things that can happen with team guys, just anyways, just things happen. And if you let it show, you're doomed.

• 18:02Jason Gardner?

  You are. Or, or they just hammer that weakness until that nerve is dead and it doesn't bother you anymore.

• 18:08Jocko Willink?

  That's true. They'll get, they'll work you through it in a nice, gentle way. And did you have any, so you, you, you were a crappy runner, obviously. And you, so that was a gut check. That's like me. I every run, I failed one run. After that run, every run I did, I just ran as hard as I possibly could sprint. It was for the, for, until we were done, until I was done. Would, did anything else trip you up at all in BUDs? Cause everything, all the water stuff was easy. Pool comp, life saving, all that stuff was easy because you did water.

• 18:38Jason Gardner?

  Yeah, and nothing about BUDs is easy, but, um, it was all stuff that I was really accustomed to. And so the, so it was like, ah, this is no big deal. This is no big deal that, but it, it was friggin brutal. Like, I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't want to do it again. That's for sure. Um, and then, but the truth of it is, like, as cold as I was in BUDs, colder in the team. As tired as I was in BUDs, tireder in the team. So, yeah.

• 19:06Jason Gardner?

  Great guys. It was a great experience. I finished up, did you finish up with dive face?

• 19:11Jocko Willink?

  I finished with, uh, land warfare.

• 19:14Jason Gardner?

  So.

• 19:14Jocko Willink?

  So they switched it somewhere around when I was there, which was nineteen ninety one. That's it was just before we got there that we switched it. In fact, I think there was actually a class that did it the opposite way, did it the old way, the way you did it.

• 19:26Jason Gardner?

  Uh huh.

• 19:27Jocko Willink?

  Before, right, that was still there when I got there. So.

• 19:30Jason Gardner?

  Right. It was because of pool comp.

• 19:31Jocko Willink?

  It was because of pool.

• 19:32Jason Gardner?

  So many guys get kicked out during pool comp that they're like, why are we waiting till the end to do this? Let's shift it over.

• 19:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Pool competency is something that I knew zero about when I was coming into the into Bud's. And they had, they had a poster in the med, medical area by the grinder over there. And it was a Texas Chainsaw Massacre poster and, and yet they had written the Texas or the Bud's Pool Comp Massacre and had like a guy with a regulator getting ripped out of his mouth and, and who's the killer in um, oh, Leatherface. Leatherface was, you know, like, had like an EUDT SEAL instructor T-shirt on.

• 20:07Jason Gardner?

  Yeah.

• 20:08Jocko Willink?

  And I, and I just remember walking by it. I was checking in or whatever and I go, I don't know what that's all about. And then I found out that, yeah, they're gonna, they're gonna crush you in the water. And what about then you go to, you went to old school airborne school?

• 20:20Jason Gardner?

  Oh, yeah.

• 20:21Jocko Willink?

  How was that for you?

• 20:23Jason Gardner?

  So it was really good, but I was, you know, I was really, really cocky. And when I go back and examine my cockiness, it was just, here's the deal. I was super insecure and uh, and then compensate for it by being cocky and hope, hopes that no one figures out how insecure I am. But anyway, uh, the physical aspect of jump school, you know, the runs and stuff. It's so easy and then, but you kind of get throttled back where it's kind of a boot camp mentality. You're not used to it. So me and the guys, we were going out drinking on, and there's rules. You're not supposed to drink on a weeknight and we were out drinking on a weeknight. Or it was like a Sunday night, um.

• 21:05Jason Gardner?

  The night before one of the last, before the final week of jump weeks. And I went up to get a pitcher of beer at the, the bar there. And the guy who was the bartender, turns out he was a black cat. And so he's like, hey, are you jump school? And I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, I'm in jump school. And he goes, you're not supposed to be drinking on weeknights. And then I, I'm like, yeah, well, whatever. And he goes, do you know who I am? And, and I said, no. And he goes, I'm a black cat. And he said it in a manner where like, there should have been some spooky music playing behind it. And, um.

• 21:45Jason Gardner?

  And I was like, okay, well, if you don't think I can, you know, drink this beer and do the PT and run in the morning and you're out of your mind. And he, and he's like, get out of my bar, rightly so, kick me out. So we leave. The next morning, we're on the bus on the way to the drop zone for the first jump. And there's kind of a commotion outside. And I look and there's that guy that was the bartender with his, and, and he's with one of our guys because he was in a different phase. And so they pulled everybody off the bus, lined us up. He walked down, he goes, oh, here's the guy. They pulled me out of the lineup. Um. Pulled me behind, uh, one of the buildings and tuned me up.

• 22:27Jason Gardner?

  You know, I kind of deserved, I, I did, didn't it kind of, I deserved it. And, uh, so they let me have it. And, uh, then that was it. I went back and did three or four more jumps. And then I was getting ready to do my fifth jump, which is the last jump there at jump school. And, uh, the liaison officer came and pulled me out and said, hey, you were drinking on a weeknight. I've got this statement. You're, I'm pulling you out of this thing and I'm gonna take you to NJP, which is non judicial punishment, captain's mast. So, I was like, hey, wait a minute, these guys chewed me out, you know, tuned me up a little bit. By that, I mean they gut punched me and I had, you know, I had it coming, it's all good.

• 23:12Jason Gardner?

  And, uh, you go, they, it was gonna be done there and he goes, nope, we're not having this. This isn't it, so you're, you're gonna go to mast. So I got pulled out of the class. The class graduated and left and then this is like Friday. You know, they did their last jump, did their graduation. I was, got put in a holding company. And then I went to, to captain's mast.

• 23:36Jason Gardner?

  In front of the, the Marine Corps Lieutenant Colonel that was kinda like the officer out there in charge of the Navy and Marines going through jump school. And, uh, you know, I called my dad, cause he was still active duty at the time. And he's a jag. And he's a jag. Score. Yeah, but he couldn't pull any strings. He's like, hey, you're just gonna have to go in there and own it. So, I go in, I, you know, I sit, sit in the room, coming into the guy's office, they read me the rights. They read the statement against me, which, which is basically the story I just told you. It's embellished a little bit more, but it's all good. And so, the, the Colonel, uh, he reads this stuff and then he just looks up to me, at me and I'm standing at attention and I'm,

• 24:21Jason Gardner?

  I think, okay, I've done it again, I'm gonna get thrown out. And he goes, uh, do you, do you have anything to say for yourself? And I said, uh,

• 24:32Jason Gardner?

  sir, that's pretty much what happened, you know, the statement that he read out. And I said, uh, uh, I've embarrassed the Navy and by and turn the Marine Corps and all I can do is take my lumps and press on with my career. And then he just stared at me and he goes, I fine you a hundred bucks for one month and I'll let you reclass up with the next class and do your final jump and get out of here.

• 24:55Jason Gardner?

  And, and so, you got a hundred dollars extra a month jump pay, so it was really kind of a wash. It was awesome. And then the, the one guy that had pulled me out of line and, and brought me in there to mast, he's like, You know, who told you what to say? But I found that and I've always told young guys in military career, just own it. If you get in trouble, own it. It's when you make excuses that you run into trouble, but when you're like, this is what I did. Most things that people have done, guys have come close to doing or didn't, just didn't get in trouble for. And when you own it, it just works out better in the end, every time.

• 25:36Jocko Willink?

  No doubt about that. So now you go back to, back to the team. Where are you, your team five?

• 25:42Jason Gardner?

  Checking in team five. We didn't have SQT then, so what they did with us was, we just kind of bounced around. So I worked in a different department at the team. I worked in diving for a couple of weeks, worked in ordinance for a couple of weeks. And I think I was at the team for about four months. And in those days, the team didn't deploy. We always had two platoons pushed forward and the command was back. So, I think I was probably four or five months at the team, went out to an island, worked at the old cap, camp out there as a camp guard. It was a great experience. And then got in my first platoon, which was in Arg Alpha.

• 26:25Jason Gardner?

  So we did the whole deployment on a ship. And that was, that was great. Had some awesome guys in that platoon. The platoon chief was this guy named Bill Kuhn, who's passed away now and I really miss him, but he was just super even keel, quiet, direct. You never really saw him lose his temper. And a good, good man, good example for all of us. And then, then a couple of other guys I'll get into here in a second. You know, and then we wound up deploying on the ship. We did a longer workup than it was. We did like almost a year-long workup because we were going on the

• 27:06Jason Gardner?

  ark. We had to do everything. Guys were normally doing like an eight monther and then they do a six months to PI.

• 27:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Well, well, when I did, because I did two ARGs, you know, for those of you that don't know, it's deploying on a ship. When we did that, it would be, we'd do the normal workup, but we do the normal workup before we started our interoperability with the Navy and the Marine Corps. So that tacked on, that, that tacked on their workup. The Navy workup and the Marine Corps workup. So it was like we did two workups, kind of. And it was awesome training. I got so much out of, out of that. But then where did you, where'd you guys go into deployment?

• 27:41Jason Gardner?

  Well, we started our Westpac and we were, we'd just gotten into the Philippines when the Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait and all that stuff kicked off. So then we pushed over for Operation Desert Shield and then was, uh, thought we were gonna go home. We made it back to the Philippines and then we stopped there in the PI for like three weeks. And then turned back around and went back over for, uh, Operation Desert Storm.

• 28:11Jocko Willink?

  Did you guys do anything?

• 28:13Jason Gardner?

  We just did a bunch. So we did, uh, the tanker boardings, like you talk about, did a couple of those. And then we had a bunch of different operations that we had slated on some of the islands off the coast there. That we would, we, we got all the way to the point of doing rehearsals for them. And then like, the Iraqis would have just abandoned the island or a couple, one of the times when the helos flew over to do a recon, they surrendered to the helicopters. And then they just sent helicopters in there and took all, took all the Iraqis over. But, uh, um,

• 28:46Jason Gardner?

  Admiral McRaven was our task unit commander at the time. And, uh, so that was cool. He was, he was really good to work for. And then, uh, like one of the guys in the platoon that I'm, that I told you, I reached out to him because I want to mention him because he's kind of a bigger than life SEAL was Steve Hines. And Steve is, is, he's a big guy. He's all, you know, at the time tatted up quite a bit, which in the early nineties, a lot, not a lot of the guys had tattoos. He, uh, At some point in a bar fight, someone had cut him up with a knife. So he has these amazing scars crisscrossing his chest. He's really smart. He's got a razor sharp whip.

• 29:28Jocko Willink?

  Wit.

• 29:29Jason Gardner?

  And was just a lot of fun to work with. One of those guys where as bad as things ever got, he's always cracking, you know, cracking jokes. So it's always funny, takes the edge off of it. And one of the things that he did really well was, you know, when you're on a ship, you're on the ship and there are some guys that decide they're going to be condescending to everybody. And, uh, you know, that just doesn't get you far in life. Steve ran a PT for the ship. So we would do our own physical training in the morning. And then he had one that he would run in the afternoon and he would invite everybody to it. And the, the captain of the ship came to his PT, the master chief of the ship was there.

• 30:14Jason Gardner?

  By the end of the deployment, we would have most of the flight deck would be covered with guys coming to his PT. And then he'd be cracking jokes the whole time. Everybody loved him. We would do like, okay, hey, we're going to do a fantail shoot. And we would have different people from the ship come up and we would let them shoot our guns and be their range safety officers. So it's like, hey, all the guys that work in the galley. You know, and the galley is our mess hall. Come out, we're going to run a shoot for you. And then, then what happens? They hook you up with food. You know, you, everybody.

• 30:47Jocko Willink?

  Chicken patties.

• 30:48Jason Gardner?

  More chicken patties, you know, maybe some extra dessert. And then everybody just looked out for us and it was so good. It paid off in spades.

• 30:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that idea of building relationships with people is just such a benefit across the board. And I certainly learned that literally getting extra chicken patties and extra chicken nuggets. Because I was bros with the dude working in the front line. Handing out the chicken nuggets. What might sound like, like that's whatever. No, that's a real thing. You're cutting gator squares off the coast of Africa for 90 days. They, they don't have a lot of food left and it gets down to, okay, what are we going to get? We're out there trying to get jacked by the way. And if you, if you don't have fuel, so yeah, bro out with those people a little bit.

• 31:37Jason Gardner?

  Everybody. Why, it's just like no skin off your back, not to.

• 31:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 31:41Jason Gardner?

  And, uh, You know, I mean, really, that's what karma is, right?

• 31:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 31:46Jason Gardner?

  Good to people and then it comes back to you.

• 31:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And so, so you guys did some ship boardings? And but then the Gulf War, I mean, it was over in 72 hours.

• 31:56Jason Gardner?

  Yeah, it was done really quick.

• 31:58Jocko Willink?

  And the guys in the teams that did do missions, they, they were generally like, like a couple of guys, there's a couple of platoons that got, there's a couple of platoons, there's a platoon that almost got overran.

• 32:08Jason Gardner?

  That KFJ, right? That was a team one platoon. No, was it?

• 32:13Jocko Willink?

  I think it was a team one platoon, but.

• 32:16Jason Gardner?

  Was it a, I don't know, it wasn't a KFJ, I forget what it was, but it was right up their line and they punched through, it was pretty crazy.

• 32:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, that's like one of the, and one of the guys that was in that platoon, I ended up in a platoon with later, but generally, and, and even, even doing ship boardings back then was like, yes, you know, we did something.

• 32:34Jason Gardner?

  Real world.

• 32:35Jocko Willink?

  Real world.

• 32:35Jason Gardner?

  I got a real world op, everybody gather around. Yeah.

• 32:39Jocko Willink?

  And that was the truth. That was the truth. That was, that was the way it was. Hey, if you did something real, that was awesome. And, and I mean, when I was coming in, I had all these fantasies that once I was in the SEAL teams, look, there's clandestine wars going on worldwide and I'm going to be all up in them. I'm going to be fighting wars people don't even know about. And then I found out when I got to the teams that there was no wars in Guam, which was where my first deployment went to.

• 33:08Jason Gardner?

  Yeah, I felt like that same thing was going on, that there'd be like, guys with, you'd get there and within a week, people be going, hey, load your stuff up, we're going here and loading everything out and then it doesn't happen that way, or it does, you just gotta, you can't chase it, I guess.

• 33:24Jocko Willink?

  Well, it happens more now. I mean, now there's a lot more stuff going on and it is going on and it is worldwide and you see it in the news and sometimes you don't, but it is totally different. It's completely different now. I mean, we are at war. And so those little fantasies that you have about going into countries, that, that happens now, whereas in the nineties, it wasn't happening.

• 33:48Jason Gardner?

  No. And, and then there were all these assumptions about what you're going to do when you're shot at. I remember like we shifted our, our immediate action drills around, um, at Nylund right after the Panama thing happened, um, that Patia airstrip.

• 34:06Jason Gardner?

  And we decided that, or it was decided by guys thinking about, they're like, hey, you're just, when the first gunshot goes, you're just gonna crawl. So we did everything crawling around in the desert. And, uh, you know, it's not, it's not how it goes, but no one knew.

• 34:24Jocko Willink?

  No one knew. And we lacked simunition, or, or laser systems that we ended up using. So it was hard to know. I mean, even CQC was

• 34:34Jason Gardner?

  Oh, especially.

• 34:35Jocko Willink?

  totally ridiculous what we used to do. And, you know, new guys like me, they're telling me that this is what you do, and this is why you do it, because they have theories behind it. They have theories theoretically, and the theories are hard to argue with. A, because you don't know any better, and B, because they've kind of pressure tested the theories in little arguments amongst themselves. So, hey, you listen to them, and you think, okay, this is the way it is. And then you find out, well, then everyone found out, actually, even just when they started implementing paintball and simunition, it was like, you know what? This doesn't seem like a smart idea. It doesn't seem like a smart idea for all of us to be standing in the hallway. That's, that's one of the big ones. It's so obvious. You know, my first platoon, it was like, hey, everyone stand in the hallway, and you

• 35:19Jocko Willink?

  get ready to go in the next room. And that's cool. Then second platoon, same way. It wasn't till, either like, I think it was even past, I think it was, I think it was in, um, I don't know, I'm trying to think of the year, but like 98 is when I started seeing a change in, hey, this is not smart, because watch what happens. You guys go all line up in the hallway, cool. Somebody sticks a simunition gun around the corner of the hallway, and mows down eight people.

• 35:48Jason Gardner?

  Right.

• 35:49Jocko Willink?

  And the first reaction is like, well, that wouldn't happen. It just happened. It just happened. Well, that guy wasn't aiming. Yeah, you don't need to aim. You have an automatic weapon. And so that was kind of the beginning, or that, that definitely had an impact on the way stuff is gonna be. And it's just like you said, like you talked about in Panama, those guys, and how The guys made theoretical changes, which is hey, when the shooting starts, you're gonna crawl. Well, in the desert, your contact is likely to be much further away and you have much greater distance to travel in order to break contact or to assault. So if, if what you're doing is crawling, not saying there's no times where you will be sucking mud, because you certainly can be, but there's a difference between effective fire and ineffective fire. And there's this difference

• 36:32Jocko Willink?

  between dead space and when you're in, in open space where you can actually get hit. So, yeah, it's weird. It was awesome and weird to see all that unfold. And it is actually very similar to what the UFC did to martial arts, you know, because, yeah, because everything was theoretical. And again, it was, you remember some of the kind of weird martial arts that they'd throw at us in the teams? And I remember one in particular where it was, hey, when you hit the guy here, his, I forget what they called it. They had a scientific name for it. His automatic reaction, but they had some scientific sounding word. His

• 37:17Jocko Willink?

  automatic reaction, his physiological reaction is gonna be to do this. And then when they do that, you can do this. And then when, and when you do this, it's gonna cause him to do that. And they had these big scenarios that would, they would play out. And that was what it was. Hey, when you get, like, it was literally when you hit the guy in the neck, it's gonna cause him to like fold to one side and, and, and everyone that gets hit in the neck arches their back and sticks their chin out. Then you'll hit him with this. It was, they're, they're that, that's what they're saying. And then you can't say, well, hey, man, go ahead and like hit me in the neck with all your might. And I actually did do that. I actually did say, like, hit me, see if that happens. And it didn't happen. And then I got some other weird

• 38:01Jocko Willink?

  psychobabble circular argument about, well, that's because you're expecting it. Well, okay, but do it when I'm not expecting, you know, it's just, it's just one of these things.

• 38:10Jason Gardner?

  Strike the neck, stomp the groin, rake the eyes, re-stomp the groin.

• 38:16Jocko Willink?

  Thank you. Thank you. Yes.

• 38:18Jason Gardner?

  What was that? It was the, was it the scar? Was it like a soft combat assault system or something like that?

• 38:24Jocko Willink?

  It was, and, and we got, we went through a whole bunch of those. And all it takes is a couple of people in a leadership position to get convinced by this. It, I noticed, I always saw a lot of circular arguments in those things. And it's so that, that thing. So when the UFC started, it was like, oh, these Kung Fu guys or whatever, these karate guys or whatever, these ninjutsu guys or whatever, whatever their martial art was. And they had the thing that, oh, when I throat punch you, your breathing will be incapacitated for approximately 45 seconds. It's generally about 45 seconds. When you hit someone in the throat, in order for them to get it's about a 45 seconds. You get about a 45 second window where now you want to attack the nerve basis.

• 39:06Jocko Willink?

  You want to attack the solar plexus. When you get him in the solar plexus possibly, now you got about another 45 seconds. This is where you're going to rake the eyes.

• 39:17Jason Gardner?

  I'm doing some Grand Master Kung Stick.

• 39:19Jocko Willink?

  That, that was it, man. And, and so when the UFC came around, it was like, oh, all of a sudden that doesn't work. And it's the same thing that happened pre, and I'll even say pre-simmunition, pre-paintball and pre, and we used Miles gear, but Miles gear was kind of weak.

• 39:34Jason Gardner?

  Yeah.

• 39:34Jocko Willink?

  Miles gear wasn't quite good enough, which is, for those of you don't know, it's like a laser tag system that you mount on your real weapons, but it, it wasn't very accurate. You had to deal with jams and your blanks. It was just, it wasn't that good.

• 39:46Jason Gardner?

  Yeah.

• 39:47Jocko Willink?

  But those things definitely started to make it lean towards, oh, this, this, this theory doesn't seem to hold the water that we all thought that it held.

• 39:58Jason Gardner?

  Yeah. Yeah. It was just. But you know what? Here's the thing. Even if we were crawling, as long as we had a plan and rehearsed it, that was way better. than stuff that wasn't so a lot of those guys that did that first those first fighting systems that there was a lot of goofy stuff when they would get in a street fight they would still do okay because what what's I think Patton said that thing about

• 40:23Jocko Willink?

  a good plan now is better than a perfect plan later right you know that's a good point now that I think about if you think about the tactics so you got told after Panama to crawl and that seems kind of crazy right now and in a if you think about it as a broad hey what we're gonna do is crawl all the time think about this though remember when it was a whole squad getting up online and moving getting up and running all at one time yeah just as ridiculous just

• 40:49Jason Gardner?

  yeah exactly and there's a time and place for both things there's a time and place for both

• 40:53Jocko Willink?

  things and you know as a matter of fact I was I was at one of the teams I don't know six months ago a year ago and we were talking tactics and a guy asked me like hey where does the argument I might have even been your team the the question was like where does the commander go in this situation and it was like one group was saying they they shouldn't be in the rear and the other group was saying no they should be in the front that was my team okay yeah and I was like listen there's different times where the commander needs to be in a different spot and where the commander should be is where he isn't in the weeds but still kind of understands what's happening and can provide the best command and control so the answer is not he should be here

• 41:33Jocko Willink?

  the answer is where should he be for that particular situation and does the commander have the understanding the tactical understanding and the operational understanding to go oh you know what if these guys are busting into a building right here and I go into that building and there's contact I'm gonna be sucked into that contact and I'm not gonna be able to control anything contrary to that if I'm way at the back where the contact happens and I don't even know what building it's in that's a problem too where should I be I should be where I can provide the best command and control and that's very adaptable and it's very easy to adapt but it's very also very easy for people to come up with doctrine and then supporting arguments supporting theories that that are very hard to argue against because you get into circular arguments against crazy

• 42:18Jocko Willink?

  people yeah who who've become emotionally attached to whatever the answer is that's a stinger and the this is why I think NSW has always been so

• 42:30Jason Gardner?

  Successful and I think will continue to be successful is because we're not so rigid in what we do and it's so in one ways it's a weakness, but it's also at the same time our greatest strength because everything I've done on deployment, most things actually, was not exactly something that I trained for, but the training that I got was 30% there to where it was easy to pivot boom into whatever's being requested overseas.

• 43:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and the training that you got trained you to think, trained you to think, not just, "Hey, this is what you're gonna do 100% of the time." It's like, "Hey, this is gonna work in this situation, but you should be looking around, you should have your head on a swivel, you should be looking for work." All those little like mantras that you get told, they actually make sense because it's not just do the same thing every time, it's read and react, right? Read and react. That's one of the first things you start hearing, like read and react, because you don't just do, you actually read and you actually assess. So those are all important. Anything else from that first deployment besides just being on the ARG and being hot?

• 43:45Jason Gardner?

  Oh, man. Hot, long, 10-month deployment. I remember by the end of the deployment, after that deployment, none of us wanted to talk to each other for a while. It was like you'd see guys around the command and hey, and then, because it was just so long.

• 44:02Jocko Willink?

  And there's no internet?

• 44:04Jason Gardner?

  There's no internet. You know, communication with home is snail mail. That takes three-week conversations you have back and forth and, and the whole platoon is in a room that's twice the size of this. The racks are stacked four high.

• 44:22Jocko Willink?

  You've got like 80 movies on videotape.

• 44:27Jason Gardner?

  Yeah.

• 44:27Jocko Willink?

  And they're just running constantly and you've seen every one of these 80 movies 500 times because they're literally playing non-stop in the platoon space.

• 44:37Jason Gardner?

  We.

• 44:37Jocko Willink?

  It's ridiculous.

• 44:39Jason Gardner?

  We got on a kick and this is another ARC deployment I went on later when I went up going to Somalia. But we got on a kick with, uh, oh, what's the movie where the girl's head spins around?

• 44:53Jocko Willink?

  The Exorcist.

• 44:53Jason Gardner?

  The Exorcist. So we were watching The Exorcist over and over and over again. And, uh, right about, that was the time we did the, uh, the shell back ceremony where we went over the equator. And so there was only two guys in the platoon that had done it. So all the rest of us were wogs and we were going through it. And, uh, basically all they do is throw food at you and spray you with water, which, okay, this is like buds. We were just doing it and guys had come by with like, oh, look at these wogs over here. And I remember one of the guys going, the power of Christ compels you. The power of Christ compels you. And then we all started shouting it and the guy just looked at us for a second and wandered off and someone else came by with a hose and sprayed us a little bit,

• 45:38Jason Gardner?

  but they had no idea what to make of us at all.

• 45:42Jocko Willink?

  Uh, awesome. Uh, you come home from that deployment and then what, then what's up? What's next?

• 45:48Jason Gardner?

  Uh, then I went and worked in the armory for a little bit and waited to pick up another, another platoon. Then after that I did, worked in the armory for another six months, did another platoon. And then that was a spec off platoon.

• 46:03Jocko Willink?

  You went to the armory because you were interested.

• 46:06Jason Gardner?

  I was a gunner's mate and so I was a ordnance rep.

• 46:09Jocko Willink?

  What, what position were you in your first platoon?

• 46:12Jason Gardner?

  Oh, good point. So. I was a sniper, but they didn't, we didn't have, NSW didn't have a sniper course. So there was a guy that had just come from.

• 46:23Jocko Willink?

  Were you point man?

• 46:24Jason Gardner?

  Point man in second squad and the first squad point man was a sniper and he'd been to the army sniper school.

• 46:29Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 46:30Jason Gardner?

  So they ran, ran me through some different training and stuff like that to get me like kind of qualified, but I didn't have a certificate or nothing and, and it was really um minor stuff. So me and the other sniper would, you know, practice just calling stuff out. And then when we do the tanker boardings, I'd be up in the helo.

• 46:48Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 46:49Jason Gardner?

  Eyes above, passing info. And uh, so when I got back, I went to um, I was working in ordinance and then I got an opportunity to go to the second NSW sniper course they ran on the west coast. And uh, that was, that was brutal. Um, I've never failed anything. Up until then, I'd never failed anything in my life and I didn't make it through the first sniper course. I passed the shooting portion, which most guys pass, but uh, and, and that's like five weeks straight of shooting. But then when it came to stalking, I just didn't get it. And uh, I lacked the patience that I needed that I later figured it out.

• 47:33Jason Gardner?

  And so I didn't pass, I came out of there without, not a sniper qual, but an advanced marksman qual.

• 47:39Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah.

• 47:39Jason Gardner?

  Um, but.

• 47:40Jocko Willink?

  The badge of dishonor.

• 47:41Jason Gardner?

  Yeah, pretty much. And uh, guys, so.

• 47:46Jocko Willink?

  Actually, it's funny because I say that jokingly, but like everybody knows that how hard that's, they used to fail everyone in stalking. It was crazy.

• 47:57Jason Gardner?

  My, my course, there was only two guys that graduated with a qual. With a sniper qual out of like fifteen of us.

• 48:05Jocko Willink?

  How much of that was the SEAL instructor, bro, team guys going, we're gonna have the hardest course ever. No one's gonna make it through, it's gonna be the toughest course ever.

• 48:13Jason Gardner?

  I don't, yeah, yeah, I mean.

• 48:15Jocko Willink?

  I mean, if I would've been in that position.

• 48:16Jason Gardner?

  I, I think there was, that there was definitely a piece of that because there was like some guys getting pretty dang excited and screaming and yelling at you every yard line. You're like, good grief, what's going on? And uh, um, but I don't know if that would've made a difference for me passing or not. Like had it been more leveled out and they hadn't gotten too excited about it.

• 48:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 48:37Jason Gardner?

  Which I'm not saying they did, but that's just, that's how it rolled out, so. Second and I I platooned up and I was a again a point man and then I think I acted as a sniper but then the sniper thing kind of fell off the radar for NSW a little bit. It wasn't a priority for anybody and uh did a second platoon which is a spec ops platoon, went to the Philippines or no, we went to Guam.

• 49:03Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 49:04Jason Gardner?

  That's where we met.

• 49:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 49:05Jason Gardner?

  At the jungle in Guam and and the jungle was his bar.

• 49:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the jungle was not the jungle. The jungle was the bar.

• 49:11Jason Gardner?

  That everybody went to and then uh yeah, did that platoon. Then I wound up doing a year overseas. Well, I went home for a week and then came back with another platoon straight away and did did that and those were great experiences. I mean, we traveled around a lot. Um, we did a lot of water work back in the day. Lot of tanker boarding, lot of diving, all all that. Um, didn't do anything real.

• 49:38Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 49:39Jason Gardner?

  And then when I came back from those deployments, I went to work in uh our training cell at the team. Um, and the guy, I was working in the land warfare section, working for a guy named Danny Carroll, who at the time was uh, and I'm gonna have to back up a little bit on on this, but uh, he he was just, he was awesome to work for. He's he's one of these guys that no matter how bad anything ever was, he never complained. He might complain to someone that was his peer, but he never complained down and then never complained about, oh, this is stupid or he was not the tortured genius, which

• 50:21Jason Gardner?

  when things were hard and he wasn't complaining, then it then it wasn't hard and he he's another guy with a really good sense of humor. Um, and uh, and just a good, good time to be around. But the biggest thing about him was just like never ever complained, always something positive to say, um, and and was was an expert. And then when he did give you a critique, he didn't, it wasn't condescending. So he was somebody I looked up to and he wasn't in my platoon. He was actually a leadership in my sister platoon and I would go over and talk to him all the time and like back in the day, I had my hair bleached white, it was always long. You know, I was never in the right uniform ever because not being in uniform made me

• 51:06Jason Gardner?

  feel special because I was insecure and uh.

• 51:11Jason Gardner?

  All, all people would just scream at me, "Cut your hair, get in uniform." But they never would tell you, you know, "Hey, do it." And one day Danny goes, "Hey, Jason, why don't you, why don't you cut your hair? It's so easy to have a decent haircut and be in the right uniform and your life is gonna be so much better and you, you should just try it for a little bit." And he just laid it out and it, there was no condescension behind it, it was just straight up advice from one friend to another. And, uh, um, and so I tried it and I was like, "Hey, this is amazing." Like, people aren't asking, like, "Hey, what are you doing tonight?" People are actually giving me stuff to do and then leaving me alone and letting me do

• 51:55Jason Gardner?

  it, cause they, they trusted me that I was gonna be, you know, be professional about it. And after, and working for him, I got the opportunity, cause when the teams ran sniper courses.

• 52:09Jocko Willink?

  I gotta interject real quick, cause there's also those guys that would be like, they're condescending and, and all you do is, you know, you know, the guy that's all straight laced, running around the team, looking like a dork and you just think, when you're a young team guy, you're like, "This guy's a dork, he doesn't, he doesn't." And if they come up and say something, you're just mad at them. You know, you're just like, "You're stupid, you don't get it, you don't know what it's like to be young Jaco."

• 52:33Jason Gardner?

  Right. And, and that's how everybody else was, was for me, cause you're like, "Really?" But, you know, Danny was a beast and, and so it was like, "Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna listen to what he's saying."

• 52:44Jocko Willink?

  You know, there's an important two things about Steve Hines and, and Danny, which I didn't work with either of those guys, other than peripheral, peripherally through, through the years, you know, I think Steve Hines put, was at Free Fall School with me and he was at N Island forever, so whatever. And Danny Carroll, well, I, I remember Danny from being on deployment and he, my LPO was good friends with him. And so, you know, we were always linked up and, but what I was gonna say is, you, you mentioned this real quick. He was good operator, like he was all guys that, cause if you were good at your job.

• 53:21Jason Gardner?

  Yeah.

• 53:21Jocko Willink?

  That's like the base level of having respect and getting people to listen to you is, oh, this guy's really good at his job. And you'd even hear before we, before the word operator had the, had the kind of meaning that it has today where it's like, oh, he's an operator and it kind of is this taking on a life of its own. But back then it'd be like, oh yeah, that guy's a good operator. And it really meant something when I would hear that about someone.

• 53:48Jason Gardner?

  Yeah.

• 53:48Jocko Willink?

  Like, hey, that guy's a really good operator. And you'd think, oh, wow, that guy's, that means he can shoot well. That means he can navigate well. That means he can dive well. That means he's, he's uh, keeps his cool. It like meant all those things. That guy's a good operator. And so that sort of to me was the baseline, and especially for guys that I

• 54:07Jocko Willink?

  looked up to at my team when I was a new guy, it was the guys where you'd hear, oh, that guy's a really good operator. And then it was, okay. And it wasn't like that was everyone. It was not a big number of people.

• 54:16Jason Gardner?

  Yeah.

• 54:17Jocko Willink?

  And, and to develop a reputation as a good operator when there's no war going on, it's actually very hard to do that because what that means is every one of these stupid training missions, every one of these dumb dives that everyone's bitching about, you're actually taken completely serious and you're doing your best and you're teaching other people. And that is what, that's what developed the reputation back then was like, this guy's a good operator.

• 54:43Jason Gardner?

  Yeah.

• 54:45Jason Gardner?

  Yeah, definitely. And so then, then that guy's got the kind of wasta where he can hand out advice. And then the fact that he gives it out without being condescending or, or straight up, it's just so much, it's, it's worth absorbing.

• 54:59Jocko Willink?

  What about, did you, so what other schools did you go to? Did you get any, what about, did you go to SER school?

• 55:04Jason Gardner?

  Yeah.

• 55:04Jocko Willink?

  How was that? Good times?

• 55:07Jason Gardner?

  You know, that, that was, and I was, I forget when I, I think it was in this period after I did those two platoons. I finally got sucked into going to SERE school. And, uh, I remember I didn't get waterboarded for some reason in SERE school. But I did kill and eat a rattlesnake and they're like, hey, you're not supposed to do that. And then I got caught. And then I'm like, okay, well, but this is just in the field training portion where, you know, you're doing patrolling. And, uh, um, danger crossings, that's all you're doing all day. And then you have these little land nav exercises you're doing, which were super easy for me because this is what we did. So I would just, just get them done and be done, sleeping and hungry and trying to eat grasshoppers and everything.

• 55:52Jason Gardner?

  Cause they don't feed you for the whole week. Uh, and then when they catch you and they put you into that, that prison camp. So the first thing they do is have everybody line up and then they strip you down naked. Cause apparently they're, they're checking you for ticks.

• 56:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, that makes sense.

• 56:09Jason Gardner?

  So then they see all my tattoos and one of the instructors is like, hey, this guy's got the mark of the devil. Cause the guys all have that Russian accent, right?

• 56:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 56:18Jason Gardner?

  So I get, I get grabbed and then I'm in the circle of these instructors. And they're like, he's got the mark of the devil. And they're kind of shoving me back and forth. And I'm like, oh, okay, this is kind of fun. This is, you know, this isn't a big deal. And then a guy that's straight across from me, I can remember seeing a big black hand come over his shoulder. And it like covers up half of his chest, like, like Andre the Giant big and just move the dude away. And then another guy, a hand moves the other guy away. And then there's this just mountain of a man. Grabbed me with his left hand, picks me up. They're only allowed to like hit you from out here to here.

• 57:01Jason Gardner?

  But it was like, you know, those, those images in Rocky where it was like

• 57:08Jason Gardner?

  stars and that just, oh, that was that little smirk I just had on my face laying on the ground over there and oh, here comes again boom. And uh, humbling.

• 57:19Jocko Willink?

  I, I literally got the exact same treatment. I remember I was in some vehicle and it was after you got, you avoided capture and then eventually they just call up in the woods and they go, come down, you have to surrender now.

• 57:32Jason Gardner?

  Yeah.

• 57:32Jocko Willink?

  So we had avoided capture, me and my pilot buddy, we had avoided capture, we go down and get in the vehicle, they drive us somewhere. And I'm just, you know, everything's a joke, whatever, and get out of the vehicle and, you know, some guy's yelling at us with the fake Russian accent. And I'm just laughing at it inside and which means, you know, I'm like, kind of probably got that, I was nineteen.

• 57:54Jason Gardner?

  Yeah.

• 57:54Jocko Willink?

  And the dude, the dude comes over and he like yells at me and I, I, you know, who knows what I said to prove that I was a tough guy. And this dude cracked me. And I was like, damn, I was like, I can't believe he just did that. And okay, well, good times. So that must be, they must, they must know who we are coming in. They must look at the young punks and go, yep, I got this guy. Hey, I got, what number is Gardner?

• 58:24Jason Gardner?

  Yeah.

• 58:24Jocko Willink?

  Coming over here from SEAL Team Five. What number is Willink coming over here from SEAL Team One? I'm gonna get me some of that.

• 58:30Jason Gardner?

  Yeah. And it's gotta give them just an immense amount of satisfaction when that look gets knocked off your face because they can just see the light come out of your eyes and you're like, oh.

• 58:40Jocko Willink?

  Okay. It's a, I mean, I've been punched many times.

• 58:44Jason Gardner?

  Yeah.

• 58:44Jocko Willink?

  That open hand smack full on, and I don't know what you're talking about, only bringing it back to wherever. This brother brought it back all the way and brought it all the way home too. It was a good one. And I've been, like I said, I've been hit before, I've been knocked out before, it didn't knock me out, but it was, it was definitely a, it was definitely a reality of.

• 59:01Jason Gardner?

  Oh, yeah.

• 59:02Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, they're, these guys are, these guys are not playing around. These guys are gonna take pleasure in beating the crap out of me and, and they're gonna do it if they, if I give them any reason to. So. And which, so that was two deployments, you come back, you're in training. How much did you learn when you were working in training? Because I know I, as an E5 working in SEAL Team One Training Cell, learned like just mountains of information.

• 59:27Jason Gardner?

  Tons. Yeah, exactly. Cause that's when, when you have to teach something is when you gotta really absorb it because you have to completely understand it and everything else. So that's when,

• 59:37Jason Gardner?

  and it opened up the curtain for me. So I saw everything that went into training that was behind the scenes. You know, when you go through the training, you're like, oh, okay. Well, there's a lot that goes on from laying on the ranges to doing the med drills, to ordering the ammo, to trying to make the, the training relevant and realistic for the guys. So you just don't feel like you're wasting their time. But, uh, yeah. And then it was at that, at that time that, uh, I went back and restocked and got my sniper qual and then was an instructor for a couple of different sniper courses.

• 1:00:18Jocko Willink?

  And the difference is what you, was there something, you said you didn't get it, the stalking the first time around? Was it like you didn't quite figure out dead space? Was it you just didn't have the patience for it? Were you like, whatever? Or what, what, what did you, what changed about you? What did you learn in between those two?

• 1:00:35Jason Gardner?

  I, uh, so they drop you off and then they'll just point, hey, the observation point is that way. And during a stalk, you're, uh, you're trying to find where these other guys are at and, and you don't know. And they're other, they're sniper instructors. So they have really, really good skills and optics. And they're sitting out somewhere, they shouldn't, not totally concealed, but you've got to, you've got to find them before you move. And the mistake I was making before is I'd getting impatient and I'm just like, I'll just start going that way. And along the way, I'll figure out where they're at. And as opposed to, okay, I'm going to just sit right here and.

• 1:01:20Jason Gardner?

  Take my time and figure out where everything is and how everything's laid out and then try and find the OP before I move down toward it at all. You'd have to, I'd have to move laterally one way or the other to figure it out. And so typically on the stocks, when it clicked for me, I would be the last guy to leak, to actually leave where they drop us off and I'd be the first guy done. And typically I'd spend almost no time crawling because I would do, do the, you know, find the OP. Once I had it located, then I would study their terrain really hard and figure out where I needed to go to get within that 200 yards to do your, you know, final shot.

• 1:02:04Jocko Willink?

  Did you figure this out on your own?

• 1:02:06Jason Gardner?

  Well, they tell you that, but I just started listening to them and, and, and it clicked. They're like, hey, you gotta find the OP. Okay.

• 1:02:18Jocko Willink?

  Cause yeah, isn't it strange? And I mean, well, your kids, well, you, you got kids that are old enough. Like it's the same thing with your kids. You, you tell them like, hey, figure out where the OP is before you start crawling or whatever it is less life lesson that you learned by getting hit in the head with a baseball bat and you try and give your kids a hint or just tell them and they're just like, no, I'm just going to start moving.

• 1:02:41Jason Gardner?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:42Jocko Willink?

  I got this.

• 1:02:44Jason Gardner?

  Yeah. And I have no idea how to deal with that. It's, it's funny because I think you and I have had a lot of the same experiences with, with dealing with our kids. You know, like, hey, I'm telling you, I've lived through this. Here's what you should do. And, but now I've come to the point where I'm still going to tell them, but I know what they're probably going to do and then, and then just wait and see.

• 1:03:07Jocko Willink?

  Keep your fingers crossed.

• 1:03:09Jason Gardner?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:09Jocko Willink?

  I guess is what people say. Okay. So what I noticed, one of the things that I'm, I'm, I'm actually thinking about this right now.

• 1:03:19Jocko Willink?

  When I was in training cell and I was so, cause I was single and didn't care about anything else. And so I taught everything. It was like, oh, there's land warfare trip. Go, go, go teach land warfare. Oh, there's a CQC trip. Go, go teach that. Go teach combat swimmer. Just teach everything. Because, because and now I look back how awesome it must be when you got like guys like that at the team who are just like, oh yeah, I don't mind going on another month long trip back to back. Doesn't matter. We'll go train. And it wasn't just me that was doing this. Like all my, all my bros that you know, I was friends with all my guys from team one. We're all saying that like, hey, we'll go teach whatever you said was on the road. We don't care. It's awesome.

• 1:03:54Jason Gardner?

  I had a Volkswagen van that I'd taken all the seats out of the back and just lined with carpet. And I had some, some bean bags in there. And when I was on the strand, I slept in the parking lot for like, I think eight months. Cause I was like, I would rather be on a trip collecting per diem and doing stuff than sitting here. And so that's, that's where, that's where I was. It was always out on training block.

• 1:04:18Jocko Willink?

  I was running an SQT. I wasn't running it, but I was one of the instructors on an STT. When we used to run STT at the team. So it was a bunch of new guys. We were putting them through training. And I remember, right now I'm remembering this, there was like multiple officers in the same STT class. So each squad had multiple officers. So we were rotating through like, okay, it's your turn v squad leader. It's your turn during IADS. And now that I think about it, I remember so much of looking at like, okay, you'd see one guy do it and he'd be all screwed up and you'd say, what is wrong with this guy? Oh, he's shooting the whole time instead of looking around. And then just from one iteration.

• 1:05:00Jocko Willink?

  And the big difference is when you're not doing the IAD, when you're actually watching it unfold, everything becomes so good. Well, this is like, when I talk about detaching, you're, this is my earliest or some of my earlier experiences of being detached is you're watching these immediate action drills unfold. And I remember one officer.

• 1:05:20Jocko Willink?

  That was all jacked up and I watched him like, why is, why can't this squad do a whatever? Why can't this squad do a, a, a strong left or whatever, or a peel right? Why can't they do it? What is wrong? So I'm watching this one officer and the other officer like, oh, this officer did it fine. I watched him, the contact happens and the people start shooting and then the guy looks around and makes a call. I watched this other officer, the contact happens, he starts shooting and he doesn't stop shooting and no one's making the call. And, and it was just as simple as like, hey, man, your job is not to shoot. Your job is to make, you know, look around and make a call. That you learn so much when you're instructing, not only because you have to think about what you say.

• 1:06:02Jocko Willink?

  And you have to be able to articulate why, and that makes you dig deep into the reason why. And then you get to detach and actually watch it unfold and watch these little minor mistakes happen. And then you get to correct them and then you get to recognize them in yourself when you make them. It's a powerful thing too. And I, when I was at Trade Ed, I think we did a good job of transfer. Cause no one, you know, used to be, I don't want to go to training. I don't want to go to training. I don't want to go to Trade Ed. I think we did a good job of transferring the mentality to, hey, if you want to get good at this job, you gotta come here. You got to.

• 1:06:40Jason Gardner?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:41Jocko Willink?

  Which I believe is the truth. So anyone, if you want to get good at something, just try and teach it. Same thing with jujitsu as well.

• 1:06:50Jason Gardner?

  The, uh, um, that was an SOP for us when, when I was in land warfare at five. Was when a guy was having a hard time, we'd pull him up. It's like, hey, come stand next to me, the RSO and just watch your guys. Eighty percent of the time that would, that would fix the problem.

• 1:07:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:10Jason Gardner?

  Which is a testament to just attachment.

• 1:07:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it is. It is a testament to detachment. And man, once you learn how to detach, even though you're in the situation, it's like, just makes life so much easier. So much easier. Okay, so now what? You do another platoon?

• 1:07:28Jason Gardner?

  So, I got three platoons under my belt. I'm working in, uh, in, uh, um, land warfare, or at, at trade, you know, training cell with the team. And then, one of the, the platoons that was on the ARG, they were gonna pull into Somalia and help the, the UN pull out of Somalia. This is 95. And, one of, their sniper in their platoon got thrown in jail in Hong Kong. That was a big international incident. So, they were down a sniper. So, I happened to be on quarter deck watch, when the OIC of the platoon called back to the

• 1:08:08Jason Gardner?

  team and said, "We need another sniper out here. We're down one, and we know we're gonna go into Somalia here in like, three months." And, uh, I'm like, "Hey, I'm a sniper and I'm a sniper instructor. Send me." So, I passed it back to the XO, and there were actually a couple, there was another guy that was senior to me, he was in E6 at the time, that was gonna go, and then, something came up at the last second, he couldn't go, so they're like, "Hey, you're going." So, I packed up my stuff, um, they flew me over to Bahrain. When the ship pulled in, I met up with the platoon, and then got in the platoon, and,

• 1:08:49Jason Gardner?

  uh, about six weeks later, we wound up in Somalia. So, I just got lucky, you know, because you can't, you can't chase it. And then, in the 90s, there was no, like, at that point, I think there had been two other platoons that had cycled through Somalia, and, and both of them had, had gotten in troops in contact, which was a dream for all of us. Uh, and, and, timing wise, this is like, two years after the big Black Hawk Down thing happened there. So, gotten that platoon, um, another ARG platoon, back on the same ship that I did my first ARG in, we were in the same burning space.

• 1:09:32Jocko Willink?

  What ship was it?

• 1:09:33Jason Gardner?

  The, the Ogden, LPD-5.

• 1:09:36Jocko Willink?

  Get some.

• 1:09:36Jason Gardner?

  Uh, and, uh...

• 1:09:40Jason Gardner?

  Another guy that was, really another guy that was a big mentor of mine I looked up to a lot was, and he was the LPO, was Monty Treysize. And Monty had been around NSW for a long time, and he had the additional deal where he'd, he had broken service, so he was a, a police officer up in Los Angeles. And he had a lot of, you know, because those guys, he'd actually been in gunfights before, and in high-stress situations. So, it was, it was really good having him, having him there. And then, when we did go ashore, myself and the other sniper, we split up into two different sniper elements, and Monty was with my element, and then, the, uh, the other sniper was with

• 1:10:25Jason Gardner?

  the, the chief was with him, and then they, each of us had like, five guys in our group, because it was an excuse to get ashore. And the reason, and this was completely the Marines' deal, they were there to pull the UN out, but, they didn't have the 50 caliber sniper rifle capability, and that's something that they wanted to have, so that they could reach out these long distances and be a little bit more surgical with their application of force.

• 1:10:53Jocko Willink?

  Smart.

• 1:10:54Jason Gardner?

  So we were, our officers were able to sell it, and, uh, and then we got to go ashore doing that, and that was, uh...

• 1:11:02Jocko Willink?

  How many, how many days did you spend on the ground?

• 1:11:05Jason Gardner?

  Man, we were only in there for like, three days.

• 1:11:08Jocko Willink?

  Dang.

• 1:11:09Jason Gardner?

  And, so the Marines, I think, we were on the, the second lift ashore, and I was down on the airfield, but, the airfield in, the Mogadishu Airport's right up against the ocean, and, and it's...

• 1:11:24Jocko Willink?

  The reason I say, "Mm-hmm," is because, before this, or maybe it was after this, but, I was cutting gator squares, which means driving around in circles off the coast of Somalia for... For a long time and we were supposed to go in and we were we we had we got our issue of of ammo, real ammo, you know, all of our gear, our ammo, our mags were loaded. Um, our, I remember I put the real um forty mic mic into my vest for the first time and they didn't quite fit right. Like it was a

• 1:11:56Jason Gardner?

  Yeah, no one

• 1:11:57Jocko Willink?

  Gold ones are longer. No one had ever, you know, done it or no, no, like I didn't know. And, and so here we were. And we, and so we did all kinds of maps such as we, we were ready to go in and then we, we never went in, which was, and part of the reason we didn't go in is the same reason we didn't go into Rwanda because Black Hawk Down had happened. And people were just like, mm, they were, everyone was super hyper cautious about everything. And so, yeah, I remember we were going in, we were actually taking boats into the airfield. That's what we were gonna do. So I remember that airfield being close.

• 1:12:29Jason Gardner?

  Then, so, oh, this is a funny story.

• 1:12:32Jocko Willink?

  Did you guys fly in helicopters in?

• 1:12:33Jason Gardner?

  No, we rode in and on one of the big hovercraft, the LCAC, but we went in, so, okay, this is not dangerous now, but you know, the Mogadishu Airport is controlled by the UN and then there's that green beach right there, which is infested with bull sharks. I think there were like twelve total shark attacks and a couple fatalities on that beach. So, we got tasked with doing the hydrographic reconnaissance.

• 1:13:01Jocko Willink?

  Isn't there some story about some kind of slaughterhouse or something that like?

• 1:13:05Jason Gardner?

  I never saw it, but that was the story.

• 1:13:06Jocko Willink?

  The big rumor, there's a camel slaughterhouse, it's just teeming with blood and the sharks can't resist. That's exactly what we were going in with. We had that story, the big story, like the midget sniper in Iraq.

• 1:13:18Jason Gardner?

  And they're all, they're all just waiting for you to hit the water.

• 1:13:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:22Jason Gardner?

  Um, you know, which is kind of what I think anytime I'm doing anything at night, like in, in the ocean, you're like, like the sharks are just waiting right there for you to come in and just come up and bite you.

• 1:13:34Jocko Willink?

  I'm so stupid. I never think about that. I never, one time in my whole career, thought, okay, I'm getting in the water tonight in Southern California. There's big sharks that live here and there could be one. I never thought about that for whatever reason. I don't know.

• 1:13:48Jason Gardner?

  I

• 1:13:48Jocko Willink?

  I'm too stupid.

• 1:13:49Jason Gardner?

  I do, but then I'm like, I'm cold now and I think about something else or. Alright, so you're, so you guys take Elkhacks in? So wait, so we go to do a hydro recon and because of the sharks, we gotta do this big perpendicular hydro recon, perpendicular, parallel, whatever. And we're doing it with Zodiacs and we're spaced every 50 yards and then the ribs on the outside of it. And the water is, I mean- So you're not swimming? We're not swimming because of, from boats. And there was a big net that we had to get out of there so that the Elkhacks and the landcraft come in. So, I'm in the first rib and then, and a rib is a like,

• 1:14:35Jason Gardner?

  it's kind of inflatable hole, 30 feet. And then the next one out is like 50 yards past mine. So the water's super clear, like you can see the bottom and it's like 60 feet deep. And the boat out past me, they're all yelling, they're like, "Hey, look down, there's some sharks down there." So, one of the, the team guy that was in that boat jumps up on the sponson of the rib to look at the sharks and slips in the water. And it was like he hit a trampoline. I don't know how he did it because that, the ribs are so high out of the water. You're like, "How did he even get it?" But he got in and he was out so fast, I'm not even sure he got wet.

• 1:15:20Jason Gardner?

  Oh, and I don't blame him. But no, we went in, there was just, the planning cycle was crazy for that, four days. Everybody was down to the spot they were gonna be in. We did our study, there was a bunker that we wanted to use.

• 1:15:36Jason Gardner?

  That would be a good position from where we were at. So, we were on like the third lift on the Elkhacks and the Elkhacks, those big hovercraft, but you can't sit out on the deck, so they had this big 40-foot mill van strapped to the deck. You went inside of it and then there was a bunch of troop seating. And then we just rode in on that, hoped the thing didn't sink because you would just be done. Got out and then, patrolled over to our spot where we wanted to set up in this bunker. And-

• 1:16:12Jason Gardner?

  It didn't work. The slits out of the bunker, the scope of my 50 cal would stick out and the scope was looking right at the cement. So then we built, we got up on top of the bunker and we started filling sandbags, moving sandbags around, made ourselves a little like firing position on top of that bunker and uh, um, and that's where we set up.

• 1:16:34Jocko Willink?

  What were you covering down on? You were covering down, looking for attackers as they came in to, to try and attack the airfield?

• 1:16:40Jason Gardner?

  So the airfield was controlled, so we had set a perimeter up inside of the UN perimeter that was already there. And so the first day there, nothing really happened because it was all status quo. The UN controlled the airfield. There were watchtowers and stuff like that. And then we had a line set up that was just a narrow strip of beach, um, between us and the ocean. So when the UN left, then we would just all fall back into the amphibes and go back out to the, to the ships. So the first day, you know, there's always tracer fire going on. Mogadishu's pretty active. Um, not much happened. Then

• 1:17:19Jason Gardner?

  the next morning, at like 4 a.m., all the manned positions were replaced by tanks. And then everybody left and they just, there was a big camp, like 500 yards to the south of us. And they just, they just, they just left everything there. And then, then at like 8:00 in the morning, the tanks all left and just left it open. So there was this weird period of time where everyone was like, what just happened? And then a lot of the civilian populace started piling in because there was, like, there's water, there's building materials. They were ripping the roofing off a lot of the buildings that, that these

• 1:17:59Jason Gardner?

  guys had just abandoned. Um, and then about an hour after that, the, you know, you had your different, uh, um, warloads and factions figured out what was going on. And then they had to stop people from getting stuff because they wanted it. So we watched like a big crowd of people and it was just like in that movie. There's a big crowd of people ripping stuff, running everywhere, ripping stuff out of these buildings. And then guys show up with a jeep with like a PKM, which is a belt fed machine gun in the back, and just aim at the people and start shooting them. And then you just see it like oil on water or whatever. Everyone moved and they're just all taking off. So.

• 1:18:41Jason Gardner?

  One clan kind of took control of a camp that was at 500 yards to the south end of the runway. They're 5, 600 yards away from us was the edge of that camp that was UN-controlled. The other clan, which these two major factions, there's the warlords down there, controlled the other end of the runway. At one point, they moved down the runway and tried to attack this other clan that was holding, because you can't control half of a runway. And they, they had like this cra- they had crazy technicals and our, our rules engagement was hey, they can have technicals out and that's a civilian vehicle. It's like a road warrior vehicle with some kind of crew, crew sort of weapon in the back.

• 1:19:25Jason Gardner?

  And they had one was like a big five-ton truck with a quad anti-aircraft gun sitting in the back with a guy like, you know, dialing a thing to move it around and stuff. And they went halfway down the runway. They tried to shoot it out, but the, this other camp, the other faction shot back and shot them off of there. So that went on, but that was really those two fa- there was some spillover toward us, but it was just two factions shooting at each other. Well, at some point, people stud- they started, the one faction that controlled the south, this camp to the south end of the runway, started to shoot at us. And so we started taking a lot of indiscriminate small arms fire.

• 1:20:08Jason Gardner?

  And then we had a, a recoilless rifle launched at us, but it went over and landed in the ocean. And some random RPGs. It was all pretty far away. So, you know, as you know, in an urban environment, it's, it's really difficult to tell where you're getting shot at. And then especially when they're 600 yards away, there's, it's daylight. You can't see any muzzle flash. So unless somebody gets really sloppy, or you're really lucky, you're not going to see it. And the way Mogadishu is like a big hillside with all these buildings and rolls up. It's just not like you're looking at one set of buildings. You're looking at like a row of buildings, then behind it, another row of buildings.

• 1:20:47Jocko Willink?

  Infinite, infinite possibilities.

• 1:20:50Jason Gardner?

  Giant, giant mouse maze. So, um, saw a guy on a roof with an RPG and then a second later, one gets launched at us. And then we're like, oh, okay, buddy missed. And then, uh...

• 1:21:08Jason Gardner?

  So we basically at that point, they're like, you're cleared hot. This is silly. We've met our rules of engagement because and then

• 1:21:18Jason Gardner?

  back in the 90s, the appetite for applying lethal force was was pretty subdued. It's not as liberal as it is today and how it should be. And so it took us a little while to get there. And I'm like, okay, these guys are bad. These guys are obviously trying to get us. So you're cleared hot. Find somebody to shoot. And I couldn't find anyone to shoot for a while. Then this camp that was 500 yards to south of us, we saw a group of like seven guys, two of them had RPGs, your rocket propelled grenades, and other guys patrolling with like two PKM gunners. They're belt fed machine guns and like an AK gunner.

• 1:21:58Jason Gardner?

  And they're patrolling and we can see him, we can see him. And now they come out the front of the camp. And at the gate of that camp, which is facing us 500 yards away, there's two sandbagged positions for the watches who would be up there to check people coming in and out.

• 1:22:16Jason Gardner?

  And the guy, there was one guy, he had a gray, ironically, he had a gray t-shirt on that said Army. Right? And he's got an RPG and he's definitely in charge and he put a PKM on one of the sandbags pointing at us. Was talking to guys, giving direction, turns around, puts the RPG on his shoulder and is looking at us through the sight. And so

• 1:22:41Jason Gardner?

  our OIC is like, okay, well, hey, let's hold on and see what we're doing. And Monty, who's Monty's really savvy. He's like, hey, they're getting ready to shoot at us. He's adjusting the sights right now. He's getting and we wanted to preempt this so I could shoot at the guy before he got a chance to launch the RPG because they're close.

• 1:23:02Jocko Willink?

  That's a good plan.

• 1:23:03Jason Gardner?

  So, um.

• 1:23:07Jason Gardner?

  All I see is like, okay, go, shoot him. So I've got kind of a, I've got a really jacked up firing position. It's a 500 yard shot. I uh, I squeeze, squeeze a round off, boom. And then apparently I missed. So which, which I, my, my shooting position was not good and I was really, really like excited. I had what they call, you know, buck fever. It's the first time I've ever shot at a human, so I was worked up pretty good. Um, and then the guy who was spotting for me, who wasn't a spotter because the was, the sniper was in the other platoon or at the other, the other firing position.

• 1:23:49Jason Gardner?

  He was sitting right next to me on the sandbags, looking through the spotting scope. And when the 50 cal went off, it's got a big muzzle brake, so the recoil doesn't break a collarbone. It ports back, it just blew a bunch of sand in his eyes and knocked the spotting scope right out of his hands. So Monty's like, hey, you missed. I'm like, do you have a correction? And, and he's like, no. And it sounded like he was talking in slow motion because he was just, just super calm and cool. And uh, um, I'm like, oh no. And now I'm questioning whether I, my, my dope, my data on previous games for five, 500 yards is any good or anything?

• 1:24:30Jason Gardner?

  That 50 cal, you to take the entire bolt out of the gun, knock the brass out from the round you just fired, put a new round in, chamber it and reload. So I chamber it, reload, downrange. They were, they were like, ooh, they just shot at us, you know? So the guy was like, wow, so they're starting to talk and now he's got that RPG on his shoulder. And now I hold a little harder, I take a breath, let half out, start to squeeze that trigger. I get that surprise bake, boom, pull the bolt out, knocking the brass out, load another round. And I'm going, did I hit? And our comms guy had grabbed binos and he goes, oh man. And I'm like,

• 1:25:16Jason Gardner?

  Did I hit? And he goes, God darn it. Good grief. And I'm thinking that he's gonna tell me that I missed by like half a mile and he doesn't even know what kind of correction to give me. And I hit him in the arm. I'm like, dude, what happened? Did I hit? And he didn't even hear me. He goes, he is down. Oh, that had to hurt. So now, that PKM gunner who was set up on the sandbags, he just lets rip. And so there's the bullwit craps of those rounds going over the top of us. And Monty's like, hey, I think this guy's like right at 500 yards. You got, you're dialed in, you know, he's just talking in my ear.

• 1:25:58Jason Gardner?

  Like, man, like, we're going to get the mail or something, or whatever. Just calm. And then, uh, so I can't see the guy at all. All I can see is the muzzle flash. So I put the crosshairs in the middle of the muzzle flash, squeeze the round off, reload, come back up and look to see what had happened. And there was a, the gun had spilled over the front side of the sandbags. There was a huge divot in the sandbag. I couldn't see, you know, I couldn't tell. I think I hit the rifle, but then he had spilled out. He was out from the side of the sandbags on his side. And, and it's just, his guts were everywhere. He was flailing around for a little bit and then he expired, I assume,

• 1:26:42Jason Gardner?

  because I quit looking at him at that point. Because a jeep had now shown up and it had like one of their 50, 51 cows in the back and the guy is just like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And I'm thinking, oh, man, we've grabbed the tiger by the tail. Cause I've got this round, I can, you know, one round at a time. And I'm waiting for like, there was a tow missile gunner right near our position for him to light it up. But, uh, we got really, really strict rules of engagement, briefings before we went in. So the guys were a little bit hesitant to let it rip. So that shot, I rushed, I wound up hitting the jeep.

• 1:27:25Jason Gardner?

  Right on the sidewalls between the gunner's legs, but that was enough. Soon as the jeep got hit, boom, they drove away and they were done. And then these guys started to do a peel. And it was a really organized, squared away, good peel. So they were peeling behind a building. So then now they were starting to gain a little bit of distance on us. And they were falling behind this big building. Monty's giving me, gives me another round. He's like, hey, I think they're about at 700 yards now. Adjust your dope. So I dot made my adjustment from, from where I was just shooting at to 700. And as you know, as the, they're doing a peel, a guy gets up and

• 1:28:04Jason Gardner?

  runs. So there was a guy running full value. He's running across with, with the RPG. So I shot at him, hit way behind him. And he went behind the building, then reloaded. Two more guys peeled behind the building. And then they were just gone. So I held, I held my crosshairs on the edge of that building where they had just gone. And a second later, the guy with the RPG steps back out into my crosshairs. And so my crosshairs are squared up on his pelvis. And I start loading the trigger as he's taking a knee to shoot the RPG. So his knee hit the ground when that 50 cal

• 1:28:48Jason Gardner?

  round hit him in the chest. And so we were shooting the Ralfus Mark 211, which is a multi-purpose armor piercing round. And it explodes when it hits something hard. And the spotter's like, bro, that thing lit right up when it hit his chest. Boom. Down he went. And then, then that was it. Then they got some guys over there that, linguists, and they had loudspeakers on their Humvees. And they're like, hey, don't shoot at us. We're not taking sides in this whole thing. And that kind of calmed everything down for the next couple hours. And into that day. And then we, we watched the guy. It's like, life was incredibly cheap there.

• 1:29:32Jason Gardner?

  Saw a guy get pushed off a roof, we were watching, uh, um, in the evening, we had gotten, someone said like, hey, th- this one building, about two kilometers away, that's one of the Klan leaders' buildings. And, we could see guys up there in the evening, and they get that cot there, that makes them all go kinda crazy. And, we'd see guys sitting there like, watching the sunset up on a roof, and then, one of them would start to get animated, waving their arms around, like they were arguing about something. Then they were all animated, then they were up like, beating each other with clubs, hitting each other with rocks, and then it would just stop. And then, it would start up again.

• 1:30:14Jason Gardner?

  And I think at least one of those, we watched a guy just get pushed off a roof, shh, fall dead. That's just how they roll.

• 1:30:23Jocko Willink?

  And so this, so the first day was pretty mellow, was this all, this activity took place on the second or the third day?

• 1:30:28Jason Gardner?

  First day was mellow, second day was, uh...

• 1:30:32Jocko Willink?

  Oh, it was when they pulled back, and then the third day is when they...

• 1:30:35Jason Gardner?

  No, the first day was mellow, the second morning is when they pulled back, and then the second day is when we got in that first firefight. And then, it was either that afternoon, or the next day, my memory, you know, it's been thirteen years. Emery slips, where, they called, and they had, they had an issue with a guy, they're like...

• 1:30:54Jocko Willink?

  It's been twenty-three years, but yeah, we'll take it.

• 1:30:56Jason Gardner?

  Okay.

• 1:30:58Jason Gardner?

  I should've taken more discipline. They, uh...

• 1:31:04Jason Gardner?

  They hit us up, they're like, "Hey, we've got a guy down here, that is close to where we're getting ready to move some armor, and he has an AT4." Which is weird, because that's one of our weapons, it wasn't an RPG, he had a legit AT4. And they, they shot at him, and he ran away and came back, they're like, "He's gonna use it." So, "We wanna do this deal, we're gonna have a sniper-initiated kind of assault on this guy." So, um...

• 1:31:35Jason Gardner?

  They sent an LEV over to our position, me and the OIC got in it, and we went and saw the Lieutenant Colonel, and he's like, "Hey, um, here, we studied a map," he's like, "Hey, here's where the guy is, I think a good spot is this tower, there's some recon guys up there, we're gonna put you up there with them and then, then get this going." So, I went up to the tower, we moved up to the tower, the guy showed us, so what it was, was out there, there was a set of bunkers in, alongside of the airfield that was now controlled by just whoever. And this guy was in one of the bunkers, and then he would come out with like six or seven other guys, and he had an eight, you know, and they would smoke cigarettes, and he had

• 1:32:20Jason Gardner?

  the AT4, and he would, they were watching the US line, so they said, "Hey, here's what we want you to do, um, you know, he keeps coming in and out, when he comes out again, we want you to shoot him." And then, we're gonna have, they shifted some of the light armored vehicles down the line, to where they could go at, go at the bunker with their coax guns, and try and get him and his buddies. Um, so we put us up in the tower, there's this, like, 20 mile an hour wind, just howling, full value, it's, uh, right to left, and then, it's, from where I was in the tower, it's a thousand yard shot.

• 1:33:05Jason Gardner?

  So, so I got a bunch of sandbags, bunkered my position up, we waited around, you know, for the guy to come up, he comes up, so I take this thousand yard shot at a guy in a 20 mile an hour, you know, full value crosswind, which, at the time, there's probably two, three people in the world that can make a shot like that, and I'm not one of them. I missed and hit his buddy.

• 1:33:31Jason Gardner?

  So I didn't hit the guy with the AT4. I hit the guy with the AK-47 standing three feet to his right because I put in too much wind. And they all dove in the bunkers, then everybody on the line started shooting the bunkers, tore the bunkers up. They called a ceasefire. And then the, one of those guys survived and it was the guy that had that AT4, but he left it and he just got up and ran away. Um, then at a later point, there was a guys, they were shooting at the LCACs as they were coming in and out. And so we, we, there was a, there was a big cinder block wall, 700 yards away, away from the, um,

• 1:34:15Jason Gardner?

  the airfield there, and he was on the other side of it and there was one cinder block missing and he would look through and shoot through it. So I shot at him and hit the wall right next to the, wherever he was shooting at and I scared him away and didn't come back. But, uh, then that was it. Then, uh, the next day we, uh, packed up and everybody fell back out to the ship. The, the Marines ran a great operation because everything kind of went like clockwork, exactly the way it was supposed to. And it was, uh, good to go.

• 1:34:47Jocko Willink?

  And you went back on LCACs, you just said?

• 1:34:49Jason Gardner?

  Yeah, the LCACs came up on the beach.

• 1:34:51Jocko Willink?

  Got back in the milvan?

• 1:34:52Jason Gardner?

  Got back in the milvan, went back out to the ship and then the final deal was there was just a strip of the amphibes that just drove out to sea as they broke down the final deal.

• 1:35:04Jocko Willink?

  And that was it?

• 1:35:06Jason Gardner?

  Yeah, and that was it. That was, but, but then I was like one of six guys at the time on the west coast that had, you know, been on the trigger and, and been in combat.

• 1:35:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, I, I remember. It was awesome. I was, uh, super stoked and super jealous, of course, like every other guy was like,

• 1:35:26Jocko Willink?

  Which actually, this is why I did another ARG. Because it seemed like, hey, if you're gonna get some action, you need to go with the Marine Corps in the ARG. And go out and do that. That's why. Myself and all the other guys that you know, all my old running mates, we all were like, okay, we'll just do another ARG. Get back over there. Let's make this happen.

• 1:35:42Jason Gardner?

  It's going to the problem. I mean, I had two ARGs and two combat action ribbons.

• 1:35:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:46Jason Gardner?

  And then, you know, it worked out for a lot of other guys. Since then. Or before that, because there were two, the other guys that had rotated through Somalia had been on the ARG platoon.

• 1:35:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. When you get home, you know, what was going on? Were you married at this point?

• 1:36:02Jason Gardner?

  I was. I was married to my son's mother. And, uh.

• 1:36:06Jocko Willink?

  And when did you get married?

• 1:36:10Jason Gardner?

  I don't remember.

• 1:36:10Jocko Willink?

  Was it, was it, no, not what year, but like, were you in a training cell at the time?

• 1:36:14Jason Gardner?

  I was in training cell at the time. I was after.

• 1:36:16Jocko Willink?

  So you were pretty much a, uh, less than a year of marriage, or maybe two years of marriage at this point?

• 1:36:21Jason Gardner?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:23Jocko Willink?

  And then, how was that dealing with, you know, being gone and being the teen guy marriage thing, which is generally really hard?

• 1:36:31Jason Gardner?

  It was hard. And it. I want to back up really quick, because I want to make sure I point this out. Before we get into this next thing. And another thing that Monty taught me, that we kind of talked about a little bit, was he's like, wherever you go, run for mayor. And he's just talking about, be good to everyone, everywhere you go, because they're gonna go out of their way to take care of you. So. Like, that crew on the Ogden on that deployment, they took great care of us. Because he always went out of his way to be good to everybody.

• 1:37:04Jocko Willink?

  You know, just to go back to Monty a little bit, it's weird to think about.

• 1:37:10Jocko Willink?

  Now, right? You look back at what you did now. What you've done since then, which is obviously a ton. And going back to you being there. And when I think about it in my mind, about how just. Uh, I guess immature is part of the word, but it's beyond just being immature. Cause I'm not just talking about being immature in the traditional sense of the word. I'm talking about being combat immature, meaning no one had any combat, right?

• 1:37:37Jason Gardner?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:37Jocko Willink?

  And I think about just having a guy like Monty, who's like level headed, who's been in some shit before. And can go, you know what? Hey, we need to shoot this guy before he shoots at us. That's just totally sensible thing to say, but if, if everyone's, cause you got these massive ROE briefs and everyone's being paranoid. And you can't, hey, listen, we don't want, we don't want this to escalate and all these things are in everyone's head.

• 1:38:01Jason Gardner?

  Yep.

• 1:38:01Jocko Willink?

  And it's so easy. It's kind of like the detachment. When you just go, hey, you know what? This guy has an RPG. They just shot one at us. He's aiming it. He's going to shoot us again. We need to kill this guy. Okay, go ahead. And then instead of, you know, dude, you're low, you're low, you know, or whatever, just, hey, you're good. Load another round, just being calm. When I think about the advantage and how that's a pretty good performance. What you guys was a pretty good performance with no experience, because I think of how, you know, what, what I gained through experience and the maturity, the combat maturity of seeing things and things unfolding and being like, okay, I can handle this right now, or this isn't a big deal or whatever.

• 1:38:43Jocko Willink?

  But man, when you're, when you don't have that, everyone's all excited and everyone's freaking out and everything's just magnified. And so it's pretty impressive. And to me, you, again, you have a guy like Monty, that's just looking at the OIC, his boss. And saying, hey, we actually need to kill this guy right now and, and not being like, we need to take this guy out. Which just escalated. Then the OIC is thinking, oh my God, you know, he might say, shut up, you know, whatever.

• 1:39:09Jason Gardner?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:10Jocko Willink?

  Just going, hey man, we need to take this guy out. Just, just having that mentality is, is so important. And I don't know, how well would you guys have done if he wasn't there?

• 1:39:20Jason Gardner?

  I don't think we'd have done as well. We, we might not even been in the position where we shot.

• 1:39:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:39:28Jason Gardner?

  Yeah, cuz he just carried us through that whole thing. He, he, he had a funny thing he taught us. He goes, if you're ever really excited, and, and he may have put this out to you two over the radio, he goes, if you try to talk like you have a southern draw,

• 1:39:45Jason Gardner?

  it'll slow you down. And he goes, and you won't have a southern draw, by the way, but it'll slow you down. And he told us of a case that there was some officers in a high-speed chase, and they were so calm over the radio, people didn't believe that they were in a high-speed chase, except for the rep, the speed at which they are going, oh, we just passed this street, we just passed this street, we just passed this street, because they were cool as cucumbers, you know, they're not freaking out.

• 1:40:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's awesome. No, it's, it's definitely just, it's cool to hear that story. And you've, you probably told me that story 21 years ago, or something like that. And I actually heard you brief that story to a bunch of people at a dog and pony show. And it was really epic to hear you tell that story. But to hear the full, actually, I don't think you ever gave me that detailed of a debrief. But it's awesome that at that time, no combat experience, it's like, okay, here's what we're gonna do. And that's a good lesson for everyone. Man, detached, stay calm, look at what's going on. And it all does go back to the fact that you were in that position, probably had something to do with the fact that you, that, you know, you were running for mayor, or, or, you

• 1:40:55Jocko Willink?

  know, Monty, as a platoon chief, was running for mayor and building relationships and hanging out with Marines and teaching them whatever, and getting, giving them some gear, and what, you know, just doing those things that you're building relationships with the rest of the team, instead of being an arrogant jerk to everyone, because you think you're better than them.

• 1:41:09Jason Gardner?

  Absolutely. Because there was another unit that had 50-cal sniper rifles that didn't get to come.

• 1:41:16Jocko Willink?

  Well, there you go. There it is. Okay, so now you get back, and how long was that deployment? Was that just a six-monther?

• 1:41:24Jason Gardner?

  Well, they, they were already deployed. So I, I did like three and a half months with them, because I replaced it, the guy that got in trouble.

• 1:41:30Jocko Willink?

  Got it. And then, but, okay, so now we were starting to dive into a marital scenario that was going on. So you got a kid already? You got a kid?

• 1:41:46Jason Gardner?

  Uh, my son's mother was pregnant when I went on that deployment. And so he was, that was in February and he was born in September of 95.

• 1:41:55Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 1:41:56Jason Gardner?

  So, yeah, I, I came back and then it, it was one of those situations where, um,

• 1:42:05Jason Gardner?

  me being gone all the time didn't help, but me being home all the time didn't help either. And it, and, and so we just parted ways.

• 1:42:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:15Jason Gardner?

  And it, it was, uh, it was hard for me not to have my son in my house, but it, it was, it was the best thing because me and his mom just didn't get along.

• 1:42:25Jocko Willink?

  Um. And then this is at the point, at the same time, is this when you got out?

• 1:42:31Jason Gardner?

  This is right with it, we got divorced right after I got out, which.

• 1:42:38Jocko Willink?

  Did you get out with the vision in mind that you were going to be able to save this thing? Or did you get out with the vision in mind like, no, this is already too far south?

• 1:42:44Jason Gardner?

  No, yeah, I got out. She, she wanted, she was like, hey, I want you around more. You're gone too much. It's, you know, this isn't good. Get that, but then.

• 1:42:53Jocko Willink?

  So you got out?

• 1:42:54Jason Gardner?

  I got out and then, um.

• 1:42:56Jocko Willink?

  And she realizes she really doesn't like you?

• 1:42:58Jason Gardner?

  Yeah, pretty much. And I, I can't blame her. So, so then, then we ended up separating or, or get, you know, going through.

• 1:43:06Jocko Willink?

  What was your plan getting out?

• 1:43:09Jason Gardner?

  Oh, I was gonna go work for a guy doing some kind of, uh, um, investment stuff.

• 1:43:15Jocko Willink?

  Uh, cause that makes a lot of sense. Yeah.

• 1:43:19Jason Gardner?

  We, there, there was no plan. It wasn't thought through. The smartest thing I did was the day, the day I got out, I enlisted in there or, or I joined the reserves. So I was in the SEAL Team Five Reserve Teams. So I did that for a year and a half. And then when all the dust settled and, uh, with, with the, the, you know, who's gonna have custody and where my son's gonna live? It was like, what am I doing? I'm, I'm only happy when I go to do my reserve drill.

• 1:43:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:52Jason Gardner?

  And so I'm like, hey, I want to go back on active duty. At the time, they were critically undermanned for E6s. So they're like, boom. So the timing, like my timing, I've been so lucky for my timing. Like being on the quarter deck that one day, I checked into trade at in August of 2001. Into the sniper cell. And then, you know, the planes hit the towers and then the teams are just off to the races.

• 1:44:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Did you, when you, when you were civilian? Um, or whatever you were, a reservist civilian? How long did it take you to realize that this was a bad call? And I'm going to jump forward, like when you would have guys that were saying they were going to get out at 13 years or nine years or whatever. Did you, you know, what, what'd you tell them about that?

• 1:44:43Jason Gardner?

  Oh, you mean later?

• 1:44:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like later, like, cause you know, I would, you know, when I was, well, my, you know, once I was an officer and I would have friends that were like, hey, I'm going to get out. And, you know, I'd say, the experience I had was I went to college.

• 1:44:56Jason Gardner?

  Right.

• 1:44:57Jocko Willink?

  And when I went to college for three years and when I came back, I was like, the main thing I learned in college was never, ever, ever, ever get out of the teams ever. Because it, dealing with other people was just so horrible. And especially, I mean, like you and me who literally spent our whole adult life in a platoon. You get out of, in this, in, with normal people and you're like, what are you, everyone doing? What's that? Why is this even happening? It just, nothing makes sense.

• 1:45:26Jason Gardner?

  Yeah, there's a lot of awkward silences. No one gets your jokes. And it was, uh, what I usually tell guys is like, hey, I got broken service and you're going, once you get out, you're going to miss this peer group. You'll miss this job and I don't think you're going to make that much more money.

• 1:45:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:45Jason Gardner?

  And, but I never, I always tried the soft sell.

• 1:45:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:45:51Jason Gardner?

  Hey, and, and I, I would tell guys, here's my phone number. Do not lose my phone number. And if you decide you want to come back in, please call me. I will, you know, figure out how to get you wherever I'm at or back in. And, and, and I've done that for at least two or three guys.

• 1:46:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. No, it's a, I know it's a hard decision for guys to make and, and it usually, and, and sometimes it's, um, what is that? It's an emotional decision.

• 1:46:18Jason Gardner?

  Oh, completely.

• 1:46:19Jocko Willink?

  Cause they had a bad deployment. They didn't like someone or their wife's mad at it, whatever. And they make that emotional decision when in fact. The teams can take care of you too, you know, the teams can go, hey, look, we know you need some downtime. You're going to go to Bud's and be an instructor or whatever, you know, for three years, you know, you can get your kid through high school or whatever. So the team does a good job, usually of taking care of, of the people, you know, taking care of team guys. But sometimes, you know, people, they have the grass is greener situation.

• 1:46:51Jason Gardner?

  And again, in the nineties, we're playing, we're, we're training for a big game that we're not going to do. And so there was a loss of job satisfaction there.

• 1:47:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:01Jason Gardner?

  And, and who knows where NSW, what trajectory we were on, had these wars not started.

• 1:47:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. That's a good question. That's a scary question.

• 1:47:15Jocko Willink?

  So what'd you do when you got back in?

• 1:47:17Jason Gardner?

  I went, I went into TradeNet, just got stood up.

• 1:47:21Jocko Willink?

  And you traded at Stand Up?

• 1:47:23Jason Gardner?

  It was 2001.

• 1:47:26Jocko Willink?

  That's lucky, huh?

• 1:47:27Jason Gardner?

  Uh huh. And so I got, and, and they're, they're like, hey, we're going to do a sniper cell and we're going to be dedicated to this, which is something that wasn't replicated on the other coast.

• 1:47:38Jason Gardner?

  I was like, oh man, are you kidding me? I'm just going to do sniper stuff all the time?

• 1:47:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:43Jason Gardner?

  Don't throw me in that birr patch.

• 1:47:45Jocko Willink?

  And you were the perfect, literally the perfect guy. And they probably were just overjoyed to have you coming there.

• 1:47:53Jason Gardner?

  It did it.

• 1:47:54Jocko Willink?

  With the real world experience, which is serious at that time, because no one had it.

• 1:47:59Jason Gardner?

  Yeah. And so it allows you to say stuff to people and they're going to listen to you. Like, like we were talking about earlier, where if a guy tells you to get your haircut and he's a goofball and ain't done anything. It's like, yeah, whatever.

• 1:48:12Jocko Willink?

  And, and then, so when you're running that sniper course,

• 1:48:17Jocko Willink?

  are you guys now, was that the sniper course? No, the sniper course was already stood up. So now what we're doing, this is what we kind of ended up with at TradeNet, which is you guys are going out to training. You're implementing sniper things into the overall training and you're doing specialized training for the snipers. That's what you ended up.

• 1:48:34Jason Gardner?

  Yeah. We, so for a little bit, we were still running the sniper course, I think till like 2002 or 2003. And. Then doing the sustainment training and so you know we developed the urban course. The long range target interdiction course, which they they have a different variant on it now. But um, you know, that's uh, the land, it was under land warfare and the land warfare. Oh, I see at the time was uh, Warren Officer Pritchard, Doug Pritchard, who's an awesome dude. He still works in shooting to this day and uh, we got a lot of cool stuff done. Like we got the the ballistic computers, which made, you know, shooting a whole lot more predictable.

• 1:49:18Jason Gardner?

  And then we could get guns ready to go in a lot less rounds because we had these computers that did it. And we did a lot of good research and development and then tactics that we could push directly to the platoons. Which I mean, NSW snipers are like the mainstay. Group, I think of of snipers in the world.

• 1:49:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:42Jason Gardner?

  But I'm not saying that we're better than anybody because everybody's really good. But we've had a really rich history of employing snipers and doing stuff with with snipers. You know, as you well know.

• 1:49:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah, and speaking of that, how did you end up doing an augment? Because you augmented to Ramadi, right?

• 1:50:01Jason Gardner?

  Right.

• 1:50:02Jocko Willink?

  And what year was that?

• 1:50:03Jason Gardner?

  Two thousand five, so there was, there was some of that video that got released of uh, you know, this guy getting, that those couple of snipers or whatever it was in Ramadi. And uh, the Commodore at the time saw that and he goes, that's it. And they, they had a piece of gear that was supposed to help us detect enemy snipers. And so they bought some, they gave it to us to test out real quick. And then we got to take it forward with SEAL Team Seven to go, hey, here's this new gear. Here's how you use it and uh, and then it also gave us the ability to get,

• 1:50:48Jason Gardner?

  get straight over there and kind of into the fight. So we, Team Seven had just moved into the the shark base there at Ramadi. And then we went in there with them.

• 1:50:58Jocko Willink?

  And how long did you stay there for?

• 1:50:59Jason Gardner?

  Six weeks.

• 1:51:01Jocko Willink?

  How was it?

• 1:51:02Jason Gardner?

  Awesome. So cool. So cool. I didn't, I didn't want to come back, but you know, you come from the strand. I didn't do the workup. My guys didn't do the workup and there's other guys doing PSD and they're like, "Hey, what's up with these dudes who aren't even at our team and they're going out on sniper missions?" So it's, it's not cool. It's combat tourism and I, I was super lucky that we were able to, you know, be there as long as we were. And then it was just like, ah, it's time to go.

• 1:51:31Jocko Willink?

  And you did a turnover with the guys that were there. In other words, you taught them how to use the system and

• 1:51:36Jason Gardner?

  Yeah, we're like, hey,

• 1:51:37Jocko Willink?

  a bunch of ops with them.

• 1:51:38Jason Gardner?

  When I got to go out on some ops with them, got to go on a lot of data, like my favorite thing to do was go out on daytime presence patrols with the army or the marine corps because that's, was so fun. You know, and then so we, we could, to, to get embedded in a daytime presence, it was a one slide, five W's.

• 1:52:03Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:52:04Jason Gardner?

  Which, which for the planning cycle is really easy. It's like gonna be approved, no problem. And then if you wanted to mix it up, that's, that's where it was happening, out on the streets with the guys that are walking around, using themselves as bait. So we would bounce between going out with the Marines and going out with the, the army and, and in both cases, it was awesome, but I, I really have a soft spot in my, my heart for the marine corps. Cause my dad was marine, but when you're in a marine patrol,

• 1:52:35Jason Gardner?

  it, it's like being a part of a big, huge beast that's just walking down the street, waiting for someone to bump into it and then they just turn and go after it. And

• 1:52:48Jocko Willink?

  Were you guys setting up bounding overwatches during that or were you just going on patrol with them?

• 1:52:53Jason Gardner?

  We would go on, so, so the reason that we would go on patrol is so we could, we could look for positions to put up sniper overwatches and the sniper overwatches were to catch guys placing IEDs out in the road. Um, and they'd already gotten

• 1:53:12Jason Gardner?

  Like three or four, because some guys went out on a really good op and you know, a guy that we both know and they they got two guys who were digging an IED and then there was another couple where they got and they were they were having an impact for a little bit, so.

• 1:53:24Jocko Willink?

  Well, that meant a lot to the Marine Corps and the Army when they were losing guys all the time to IEDs and then and you hardly ever do the IED emplacers actually get captured or killed, so when they're getting laid out in the streets by snipers, man, those guys were excited about it.

• 1:53:43Jason Gardner?

  And then they're and then then you know, you had that whole thing going on with the populace. Because they they began to believe that every building had an American sniper in it. Which is a good thing. That's exactly what you're denying them freedom of movement and they gotta look over their shoulders before they place, you know, one, one of those one five five rounds in the road.

• 1:54:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. So you get done with that, how much longer after that did you go to Team Three?

• 1:54:09Jason Gardner?

  Immediately. I got back from that and then checked out a trade at and checked into SEAL Team Three for my platoon chief slot.

• 1:54:17Jocko Willink?

  And

• 1:54:20Jocko Willink?

  that was an interesting ride, that troop, because so now I'm at SEAL Team Three, I'm in Task Unit Bruiser, and you're at SEAL Team Three in your task unit and there's that that one, there was some drama in that one.

• 1:54:33Jason Gardner?

  Right.

• 1:54:34Jocko Willink?

  As a matter of fact, I mean, Leif and I wrote about it in Extreme Ownership, because this is the story in Extreme Ownership of when the one of the platoon commanders and the task unit commander did not, couldn't get along and unfortunately, they could not come to any kind of agreement of how to work together. In fact, you know, the skipper said, hey, you guys got the weekend, figure out how to, how are you gonna deploy together? And I I think they could have come back and said, look, you know, he he goes there, I'll go somewhere else, we'll we'll figure it out. But they both came back in and kind of stuck to their guns, which is, no, I don't want to work with him. No, I don't want to work with him. And the the skipper fired them both, actually.

• 1:55:16Jason Gardner?

  Yeah, that was crazy. That was a horrible, like, that had been brewing for a long time and so.

• 1:55:24Jason Gardner?

  Just that drama is so horrible to deal with. Like when, and they're, they're both good guys.

• 1:55:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:33Jason Gardner?

  But it just, this drama brewed and then there was all this crazy uncertainty. And you know, who's going to get fired, what's going to happen as a result of that?

• 1:55:43Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:55:44Jason Gardner?

  And so, you know, I'm, I'm glad the admiral made the call that he did.

• 1:55:48Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:55:49Jason Gardner?

  And uh, it, it worked. And then we, the guy who took over as of the TU commi- so we, our AOIC went over and became the OIC. Oh, I, AOIC, our assistant officer in charge became the OIC of the platoon.

• 1:56:04Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:56:04Jason Gardner?

  Um, there is an officer you read a counseling shit for in a real early podcast. That the new task unit commander, the first thing he did the first day was sit down and give him a counseling shit.

• 1:56:22Jocko Willink?

  Legit.

• 1:56:23Jason Gardner?

  Yeah, that's good leadership.

• 1:56:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:25Jason Gardner?

  He's like, hey, here's what you're doing wrong. Here's what right looks like. Laid it all out for him. And uh, and that was it. And then he, he was super direct. Gave us our left and rights. And then we were just like, I was like, I, I remember thinking personally, this is awesome.

• 1:56:41Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:56:41Jason Gardner?

  Yeah, he's strict, but that I, I don't care. If you, if you tell me where my left and rights are.

• 1:56:47Jocko Willink?

  Especially knowing that guy, especially because when you're coming, and I've said this many times. When you're coming into a situation where there's, there's problems, right? Cause there's definitely problems. When the OIC and the task unit commander just got fired, there are problems. You have to come in and kind of set down, you have to lay down the law a little bit. It's not like, you know, if I roll into a task unit and they're doing great and the, one of the guy had a family emergency and he had to leave. And I roll in and it's like, okay, I'm not going to lay down the law on a bunch of guys that are doing well. I'm going to go in there and say, hey, I'm happy to be working with you guys. And, and then over time, if there's things that need to be adjusted, cool. Maybe they don't need to be adjusted, but whatever. It's different when you roll into a situation where things are not good. And then you have to lay down the law. The other thing that's very important about what you just said.

• 1:57:34Jocko Willink?

  Is sometimes people are sometimes from a leadership perspective, you don't feel comfortable giving direction because you're like, well, I don't really know what's going on. But it's it's important to think about times in your life or times in your career when you didn't get good direction from the person you're working for. And how just you don't really know what's happening and you don't feel you don't you can't predict what's going to happen. And so you you just feel kind of a little bit lost. And then you think to yourself, man, I just wish the boss would just tell us what the hell he wants. And so that's kind of what happened there. The boss, the new boss comes in and says, hey, here's what's going on. Here's what we're going to do. Hey, you guy that's all jacked up, here's what you need to improve. And everyone, instead of what in your mind, you might think, hey,

• 1:58:18Jocko Willink?

  I'm going to piss everyone off if I come in and lay down the law. At this, you've got to remember that people have been wondering what the hell is going on for six months, for a year. They don't know who's in charge. Everything's a disaster. No decisions are going to make. You come in and people go, thank God. Thank you for telling me what the hell you want. I I'm tired of playing a guessing game every Monday morning about who's my boss and what direction we're going into. So that's that's an important part to remember. Now, I am definitely, there's a dichotomy, of course, because you can come in and you can start barking orders. And everyone just says, well, who are you? Where'd you come from? You don't know what you're talking about. You haven't been here. Shut up. And of course, they won't say that to you. They'll just undermine what you're trying to do and cause all kinds of, you know, just just try and usurp you with whatever they can. So that's a problem.

• 1:59:02Jocko Willink?

  But what I'm saying is there is a a happy medium. And there are times when you lean towards being laying down the law. And there's times where you lean towards being more loose. And you got to figure out where that's going to be, depending on the situation you're diving into.

• 1:59:18Jason Gardner?

  And and not so the advantage that the guy coming in had was he'd been watching the situation for a while and he knew everybody. So sometimes when you come somewhere new, it's it's. Maybe keep, just listen before you start making some major adjustments or something like that and, but that would have just prolonged the angst all of us were feeling and he came in, he had a big brief, it was, and after that I felt like someone had taken 40 pounds out of my rucksack.

• 1:59:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Because you finally knew where you were going, who was in charge, and what at least the near future meant. Which, think, you get rid of what the near future, you get with, get rid of the certainty of the near future, you get rid of who's in charge, you get rid of what's gonna happen, you take all that away and you're just left uncertain and that's a horrible feeling.

• 2:00:07Jason Gardner?

  Yeah. Probably the worst.

• 2:00:10Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah, I think from a, from a perspective of being led, yeah, having no idea what's gonna happen is the worst. I talk about that example of rats in a cage and how the rats on one side of the cage, they just get electrocuted randomly from the floor. And, but the electrocution isn't very strong. The other side of the cage has a stronger electrocution shock, but there's a little light that comes on that lets them know that you're about to get shocked and rats prefer to know that they're gonna get shocked, even if it's more often and even if it's stronger, they just prefer to know that it's coming, as opposed to be just randomly getting shocked and you don't know why it's gonna happen.

• 2:00:54Jocko Willink?

  And that's basically where you, where your task unit was because there was, I mean, it was like a public too, it was like a public, everyone kinda knew it was going on, at least after about six months. You know, I would say after all of us being at the team for about six months.

• 2:01:09Jason Gardner?

  It was readily apparent. That's for sure.

• 2:01:12Jocko Willink?

  And, and you guys actually, the, one of the pieces of collateral damage to that was Mike Sorelli. And Mike Sorelli, he, he, they didn't know what to do with him because... I forget what the internal conflict, but there was internal conflict with Mike Sorelli. And meaning that I don't even know what it was, but so they said, hey, Jaco, you want this guy? And I'm like affirmative. And then you came up to me and I was like, you know this guy? And you're like, yes, he's awesome. And I was like, cool. And there was other people that were saying, oh, he's this and he's that. And of course, the other people, I'm like, okay. And I listened to him and then I was like, thinking, okay. And that's why I think I asked you like, hey, what's this guy's deal? You know, like, he's awesome. You're stoked. And I was like, cool. Good to go.

• 2:01:56Jason Gardner?

  Yeah, Mike was awesome.

• 2:01:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And, and he was awesome. He's obviously, he still is awesome. And then you guys did that workup and

• 2:02:06Jocko Willink?

  then you guys deployed over to, while I was in Ramadi, you guys were over in Guam.

• 2:02:12Jason Gardner?

  Yeah. So I tell you what, if, if, if it hadn't been contrasted, it was, it was an amazing deployment. Like we, nobody got in trouble. We did a lot of great stuff, which was a big problem in Guam. Guys just getting in trouble. And, uh, you know, the, the, the problem was it was guys were hearing in real time, like, hey, they just got the first Carl Gustaf kills in Ramadi. And hey, this is happening. And, and I remember one day we were, um, in, we're in Thailand on an exercise, staying in a five star hotel.

• 2:02:51Jason Gardner?

  And guys are all, I mean, I had to get everybody at the side of the pool at the five star hotel. And I'm like, listen, I want to be there too.

• 2:03:03Jason Gardner?

  It's not going to happen. We have to put the mission first. Our mission is to be here. And this is an amazing experience. I guarantee you're going to remember for the rest of your life. You guys got to stop whining.

• 2:03:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:16Jason Gardner?

  Stop worrying about it.

• 2:03:17Jocko Willink?

  And of course, all the guys always joke about the fact that when you're sitting in a sweaty Overwatch position and it's 118 degrees. They're like, can't we just spend a week in Thailand right now by the pool?

• 2:03:28Jason Gardner?

  I know. Well, and then when they used to do that rip.

• 2:03:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:31Jason Gardner?

  Where you'd go to Iraq and then halfway through, come back to Guam. The problem isn't Guam. They'd be like, guys would get back here and they wouldn't want to do any work.

• 2:03:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:39Jason Gardner?

  Um, and they weren't, they weren't focused on what was going on, you know, but then that's, the mission has got to come first and the mission isn't. Always something that you can tell stories about.

• 2:03:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:51Jason Gardner?

  But hey, I got to ride elephants. I got to sit on a crocodile's back. Uh, I got grape per diem.

• 2:03:57Jocko Willink?

  I've done neither of those.

• 2:03:58Jason Gardner?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:00Jocko Willink?

  It was good. It was interesting to like going back to the workup. It was a good contrast for my, especially for my officers to kind of see like, I'd be watching this unfold and you know, I had Stoner and Leif. And I'd be, you know, we would talk about it. Be like, bro, this is what's going on, fellas. Look at this. Look what's happening here. And it was a good contrast for them to see because it made it so obvious. Like why you have to work together, why these relationships we have inside the tasking are so important. Why we need, if you have an issue, you bring it up, you bring it to me. Why it's not going to freak me out. Why we're going to talk about it. Why, you know, Leif always says, and Stoner would have told you the same thing.

• 2:04:45Jocko Willink?

  If Leif thought like, hey, I'd like to try this a different way. I'd be like, cool. How do you want to try it? Go, let's, let's make it happen. I don't care. I don't, I don't care what happens as long as it makes us win. So there was a really cool for me, uh, unfortunately it was not cool for you. To be in a position where I could look and use the leadership failures in that task unit. And the other interesting thing was like you talk about those two guys. You're like, hey, they're both good guys. I actually know both of those guys and would be getting debriefed by both of them. Like both of them would be telling me what the other person was doing. And man, you'd just be thinking, guys, instead of telling me, go tell each other, go talk to each other.

• 2:05:29Jocko Willink?

  It, it didn't happen.

• 2:05:31Jason Gardner?

  Yeah. The enemy's outside the wire. Not Owens.

• 2:05:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And what were you, what was, what were you, when you're looking at my task unit, what were you thinking when we're in a workup and stuff?

• 2:05:43Jason Gardner?

  You guys are going to go to Iraq and we're, we're going to go to PECOM.

• 2:05:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's a, yeah.

• 2:05:50Jason Gardner?

  But that's fine. I mean, that's, that is, we knew where we were laid out and how we were manned and it was all good to go. It wasn't like we were kicking cans. Oh, no. It's like, okay, well, that's how it's gonna be. Well.

• 2:06:01Jocko Willink?

  They propose, they made a, the command made a proposal.

• 2:06:05Jason Gardner?

  Uh huh.

• 2:06:06Jocko Willink?

  That, this was early on. As a matter of fact, I was at N Island. So that was our first block of training. The command made a proposal that we kind of disassemble the task units and reassemble them in a way that was more fair with regards to who's been to Iraq and who's not.

• 2:06:29Jocko Willink?

  And they made this proposal and so they made this proposal to us. It was to me personally, to the, to the task unit commanders, as a matter of fact. Hey, that we can rearrange this thing and that way guys that haven't been can get to go. It was like the fair fairy was coming out, right?

• 2:06:44Jocko Willink?

  And I mean, I was just like, there's no possible way. But I went back to N Island and I sat down with the platoon commanders and the platoon chiefs and the, the, you know, my senior chief and I was like, hey, here's what they're proposing. They're proposing that we could disassemble these task units and we could reassemble them so that guys that haven't been to Iraq can go. And then the other guys that have been to Iraq that have combat experience. And there's all those things you can layer on top of that, like, hey, because guys will say, well, I can't get promoted if I haven't been to, you know what I mean? Like all these things. They layer all these things on top of it. Because that's a crazy proposal if you think about it.

• 2:07:17Jason Gardner?

  Yes.

• 2:07:18Jocko Willink?

  But also if you think about it, that's how much it means to guys that they want to go. And so now, this is 2005, so there were still guys that had been on shore duty over there that were cycling back in, never been to combat and they missed the 2003, 2004 deployments and they're thinking, hey, this is ridiculous. And it's what you talked about earlier, job dissatisfaction. You know, you've been in the teams for 12 years and you, and there's a big war going on and you don't get to go. That is the kind of thing you have to consider and think, how can we take care of the troops, you know, take care of the guys? Because we want it, they all want to go to war and there's a war going on and yet we're going to send them, some of them to not war.

• 2:07:56Jocko Willink?

  But I came, I came back to Nylund and I always said, hey, guys, here's the proposals. I recommend.

• 2:08:03Jocko Willink?

  We, we, they also offered, it's a competition. It's a competition and it was really just a competition between my task unit and your task unit because the other task unit. They, they actually didn't, that task unit didn't go to Iraq on the last deployment. So they said, look, you guys get to go this time for sure. And then it was between us two and they said, we can either split up or do that or make it a competition and the commanding officer will decide who's going to go based on performance. And I told my guys, I was like, I say we go for performance and we do the best we can. And we will probably crush everyone. And if we don't, we don't deserve to go and we'll go do our job in Paycom.

• 2:08:46Jocko Willink?

  And of course, all the guys were like, hell yes. And that's what we did.

• 2:08:50Jason Gardner?

  Sure. And, and you know, like, when I was a CMC at Team Five and I was doing my manning, the hard fast rule was if you went to Paycom last time, you are not going to Paycom again. And then, so those guys could get a chance. And then some of the, some of the guys that went to CENTCOM, went back, but in the end, when I'm building SEAL leaders, I need guys that have been everywhere. I need guys that have had the Paycom experience and, and understand they're mature enough to go, oh, the mission is first. And then guys that have been exposed to combat, so they know what that's all about.

• 2:09:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you know, and, and when you got done, so when you got done with that platoon chief tour, then where'd you go?

• 2:09:36Jason Gardner?

  So because I didn't, because I was in Paycom, I, I made a deal with the new command master chief. And, and I said, hey, I know I'm stepping down, but I want to go to CENTCOM. So can I stay here in the capacity of as, as the ops chief for one troop? Which was the, and my, the guy who was the OIC on my platoon, who fleet, Jack Riggins, fled up to be the, um, the troop commander. And I'm like, hey, can I, can I stay and go to CENTCOM now? Cause he was going to go to CENTCOM as his, uh, his, his ops chief. And they're like, sure. And it's just, I'm actually stepping down. Tony did the same thing.

• 2:10:19Jason Gardner?

  And then Tony and I both made senior chief. And they're like, hey, it's time for you to go. And they sent us over to the senior enlisted academy and then we went over to SEAL Team Seven together. Which worked out great.

• 2:10:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:35Jason Gardner?

  And we'll get into that later.

• 2:10:36Jocko Willink?

  And you know what?

• 2:10:39Jocko Willink?

  The great part that you just mentioned is like a three hour conversation.

• 2:10:43Jason Gardner?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:44Jocko Willink?

  Which we don't, aren't gonna have right now. Cause look, the second part of your career, or the part that if, yeah, we'll get into this, we'll do another one. We'll just, we'll just roll, do another podcast. We'll record it like tomorrow. And that's gonna follow you into Afghanistan, back to Iraq again. More time, more training, more tours, combat tours, tours as senior enlisted, tours as the command master chief, tours as an ops master chief. I mean, there's a lot of

• 2:11:18Jocko Willink?

  massive

• 2:11:20Jocko Willink?

  stuff to talk about from here on out. So we'll do that, we'll record that tomorrow.

• 2:11:27Jason Gardner?

  Good.

• 2:11:30Jocko Willink?

  Check. Echo.

• 2:11:33Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:11:34Jocko Willink?

  While we're waiting for the next podcast.

• 2:11:39Jocko Willink?

  I know have, you probably have some suggestions on what we can do instead of just sitting around and waiting. There's probably some ways that we could get better.

• 2:11:48Speaker 02

  Yes, I do have some ways. First thing is jujitsu. Jason, jujitsu?

• 2:11:54Jason Gardner?

  Yes.

• 2:11:54Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 2:11:55Jason Gardner?

  I'm a one stripe white belt.

• 2:11:57Speaker 02

  There you go. So, and so we know what.

• 2:12:00Jocko Willink?

  What did it feel like when you got the bug? When did you get on the mat for the first time legitimately thinking, all right, I want to know what this is all about?

• 2:12:07Jason Gardner?

  Okay, so the same master chief that taught us in Guam.

• 2:12:12Jocko Willink?

  Oh, Steve Bailey.

• 2:12:12Jason Gardner?

  Steve Bailey. I trained with him for a little bit in Guam and then just got distracted and I dug my teeth into a little bit, but then. Like a year ago, I started training out in East County.

• 2:12:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:12:24Jason Gardner?

  And it was just awesome, but I, I was like a spaz and I white, white belt death match. It's like, when am I supposed to like relax? I'm like, am I just supposed to lose?

• 2:12:35Jocko Willink?

  How old are you right now?

• 2:12:36Jason Gardner?

  Forty nine.

• 2:12:37Jocko Willink?

  Forty nine. So everybody that asks, I'm fifty one, can I start jujitsu? I'm thirty nine, can I start jujitsu? Um, whatever age you are, the answer is yes, you can start jujitsu. We recommend that you calm down when you start training. What's your, I wanted to roll with you. What's your relaxation, relaxation level right now?

• 2:13:01Jason Gardner?

  If I was, cause I haven't ridden like six months, but I'd probably be, I'd probably spaz out for a hot minute and then, then figure it out. But, uh, yeah, because you, you're torn, you don't know what you're doing, but you just don't want to roll over and like, oh, here, have my arm.

• 2:13:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:18Jason Gardner?

  Oh, here, put me in a triangle. And, uh,

• 2:13:22Jocko Willink?

  No, that it's a, it's a

• 2:13:26Jason Gardner?

  It's easier when you're

• 2:13:27Jocko Willink?

  It's a situation that unfolds that you know is going to unfold, that you know is not the correct thing to do. And there's no way you can stop yourself from doing it. Like you just said, you're, someone's going to arm lock you. You know what's going to happen. You could just go, okay, you know what? I'm, I'm just, he's got me. I'm going to let him. But no, you cannot stop yourself from gorilla gripping your other hand and hanging on for dear life for an extra 12 seconds before you tap. There's no possible way to overcome that. It's just coming. So yeah, you have to do that, but hopefully you can make through that. You can make it through that transition fairly quickly.

• 2:14:04Jason Gardner?

  Yeah. It's amazing for my kids too.

• 2:14:07Jocko Willink?

  Oh, kids, it's a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing for kids.

• 2:14:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, it seems like the spazzing thing, even as you get it, I mean, obviously that it happens less and less, but there'll be like momentary spaz situations, even at like the top level.

• 2:14:21Jocko Willink?

  Uh huh.

• 2:14:21Speaker 02

  Where you kind of got to stay calm. I mean, every once in a while I'll run into it where I got to stay conscious of it. Like, oh, I see the danger coming and it's coming pretty quick. You gotta think, well, I, in my situation, I'll think through it and I'll be way more successful. Rather than like, oh, spaz through it. So now I'm more tired and it's still coming kind of thing.

• 2:14:39Jocko Willink?

  I hate to say this too, cause it's horrible for me to put this out there, but there are times. When you have to spaz to escape something, Dean Lister will, if I do that, he just like, he, he, it's worth it, even if I get out, it's worth it that I spaz because then he can make fun of me.

• 2:14:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:14:57Jocko Willink?

  Oh, good defense, spaz.

• 2:14:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:15:00Jocko Willink?

  You know, he's just making fun of me because we know, we both know, the only reason that I got out of whatever he just did to me is because I kicked and squirmed and spazed out. And he wasn't ready for it. And then I got out.

• 2:15:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, and every once in a while, it'll work out, but a huge cost. So there's like two, there's two little additional elements to a successful spaz escape or whatever. One, you gotta be at least somewhat strong. Like you can't, like a, a, a smaller person, like spazzing is way less effective, even at a high level. There's that. And then when you're strong, when you're a strong person and you spaz successfully, you're way more tired, way more tired. So you get a person where you put them in a spazzing state, like two, three, three times in a row.

• 2:15:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:47Speaker 02

  No more.

• 2:15:48Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:15:48Speaker 02

  You can't spaz more than three times, I don't think.

• 2:15:50Jocko Willink?

  You, you have a max spaz reps of three.

• 2:15:52Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:15:52Jocko Willink?

  After that, you're, the next one, there will be no spaz left.

• 2:15:55Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:15:56Jocko Willink?

  After three legit spazes, there's no, no spaz left.

• 2:15:59Speaker 02

  And which brings you back to when, back early on as a white belt or something like this, where, you know, it's spaz, spaz, spaz. And they feel the effects of three spazes in a row.

• 2:16:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:16:09Speaker 02

  Hit you and you're like, dang, this is exhausting.

• 2:16:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:12Speaker 02

  And we're like, okay, you better relax.

• 2:16:13Jocko Willink?

  When you start, that's jujitsu. Jujitsu is just spazzing and more spazzing. And then it's like the opposite of when, you know, in the beginning, there's these small moments where you don't spaz.

• 2:16:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:16:27Jocko Willink?

  And then when you get better, there's small moments when you do spaz.

• 2:16:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:16:30Jocko Willink?

  And then when you're really good, I mean, very seldom do I make Dean spaz.

• 2:16:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:16:34Jocko Willink?

  I do occasionally though.

• 2:16:36Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:16:36Jocko Willink?

  It gets a little, little, little, little crazy.

• 2:16:39Speaker 02

  And you know why, in a, in a way too, where, that's why these li- smaller guys, when they're super advanced, I don't think they ever spaz ever.

• 2:16:47Jocko Willink?

  Cause it's just been, it's been unproductive for them.

• 2:16:49Speaker 02

  Right. Every attempted spaz is gonna be like unsuccessful, you know, and it, and it kind, you know, it's a spectrum, obviously. So their whole thing is just thinking through the thing.

• 2:17:01Jocko Willink?

  Andy Burke, he does this, his form of spaz is like this silent spaz.

• 2:17:09Jocko Willink?

  He pretends it's not happening.

• 2:17:10Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 2:17:11Jocko Willink?

  But it is happening.

• 2:17:12Speaker 02

  The covert camouflage.

• 2:17:14Jocko Willink?

  He's doing these like in little movements. And it's, there's only one technique that it could truly be called. And that's a spaz. But he acts like it wasn't. He's real cool. He's real cool. He's acting like that was, you know, just like a defense that he knows.

• 2:17:28Speaker 02

  One of his things.

• 2:17:29Jocko Willink?

  I'm on to you, Andy Burke.

• 2:17:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:17:31Jocko Willink?

  I know what's up.

• 2:17:31Speaker 02

  That's a good tip. I want to look out for it. I don't know if I've ever made Andy spaz, but you know, I'm going to be looking out for it. Nonetheless, when you're in jujitsu, we all need a gi. If we're doing gi, and I'm not saying you have to do gi, you should do gi, I think. Should do no gi as well. Yeah, do both. That's the recommended, both.

• 2:17:47Jocko Willink?

  If you trained gi, no gi, both.

• 2:17:50Jason Gardner?

  Oh, yeah. The place we were training at, they did both.

• 2:17:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:53Jason Gardner?

  So one night was no gi, the other night was gi. Was awesome. I got Origin gees, they're awesome.

• 2:17:59Jocko Willink?

  Oh, interesting.

• 2:18:00Speaker 02

  So you're already in the game. So some people, they, they may or may not be looking, hey, what kind of gi should I get? There you go. Just like Jason Gardner said, Origin gi, 100% best gees factually, by the way.

• 2:18:10Jocko Willink?

  Jason Gardner with the Origin gi plug, coming straight off the top ropes.

• 2:18:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:18:14Jocko Willink?

  He just pulled that out of nowhere. He's like, yeah, I train gi and no gi. And by the way, I happen to use Origin gi, which is the finest gi in America. And many people say the finest gi in the world.

• 2:18:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I say that.

• 2:18:27Jocko Willink?

  I say that too.

• 2:18:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it is made in America, by the way.

• 2:18:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:31Speaker 02

  Uh, so yeah, anyway, when you go to originmaine.com, that's where you get it. You can also get other stuff like.

• 2:18:37Jocko Willink?

  Rash guards, t-shirts.

• 2:18:39Speaker 02

  For the no gi, yeah.

• 2:18:40Jocko Willink?

  Uh, if your name is Echo Charles, no, I shouldn't say that. If your name is not Jocko Willink, you can get joggers.

• 2:18:48Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:18:49Jocko Willink?

  Because I don't look like normal. I don't, I don't know what to say. I look.

• 2:18:57Speaker 02

  You don't match.

• 2:18:58Jocko Willink?

  I don't, I don't fit, man.

• 2:18:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:19:00Jocko Willink?

  Joggers are not for me.

• 2:19:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:19:01Jocko Willink?

  Is it a, what is that?

• 2:19:03Speaker 02

  Bro, you just don't match. So here, this is what, actually, this is what it is. Okay jogger, you know what joggers are, right?

• 2:19:09Jocko Willink?

  Do you have origin joggers?

• 2:19:10Speaker 02

  Skinny jeans.

• 2:19:11Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:19:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're so they're

• 2:19:12Jocko Willink?

  Skinny jeans, sweatpants.

• 2:19:14Speaker 02

  Kind of tapered, well not kind of, they're really tapered, little bit of a, what do you call it, like a drop crotch a little bit for like a lot of roomy in the hips area kind of thing. Here you think, they're functional, yes, but I think the big push is a style thing. Cause there's like skinny jeans and all this stuff. So it's kind of like a functional thing, yes, but it's a style thing. That's the part you don't match with.

• 2:19:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's it.

• 2:19:36Speaker 02

  Especially anything that says skinny or thin or trim, fit or what, but that's not you, that's somebody else. So yeah, that's not gonna mesh with you at all. In fact, even to, you know, people have like real fitted jeans.

• 2:19:50Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:19:50Speaker 02

  Right, like real fitted.

• 2:19:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:19:52Speaker 02

  I'm not gonna say tight, I'm not gonna say that.

• 2:19:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:54Speaker 02

  Say fitted.

• 2:19:54Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:19:55Speaker 02

  You should not do that either.

• 2:19:57Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 2:19:58Speaker 02

  Cause that's not you, bruh, it's just not you.

• 2:20:00Jocko Willink?

  But the weird thing is the world changes, right? The fashion changes.

• 2:20:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:20:05Jocko Willink?

  I just keep wearing the same stuff.

• 2:20:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:20:08Jocko Willink?

  At some point is what I wear gonna come back?

• 2:20:10Speaker 02

  Well, fashion wise, maybe.

• 2:20:12Jocko Willink?

  But actually, you know what? I wear, this is the thing, I think what I wear doesn't, it doesn't, it just, hey, you can't say, hey, this guy's wearing a t-shirt and a pair of jeans. You could wear a t-shirt and a pair of jeans in nineteen fifty, nineteen sixty, nineteen seventy. Never, never go out of style.

• 2:20:27Jason Gardner?

  Quality never goes out of style.

• 2:20:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, and actually even to be more precise, since yours, you don't go for fashion at all, you go for like this functionality kind of situation. So if, if anything you do is like fashion, which I know, there's some fashion stuff in your past, like maybe hairstyles, et cetera. That's why if you see old pictures of Jaco with his hair, you'll be like, they'll be like, ah, you know, that's kind of the thing.

• 2:20:51Jocko Willink?

  That's the, that's the guy that Jason was talking about earlier. That's me, like, we were all like that, like, hey, we, we're in the teens, we have long hair, we're cool.

• 2:21:00Jason Gardner?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:00Jocko Willink?

  Push the envelope of standards.

• 2:21:02Jason Gardner?

  Long as I could get it.

• 2:21:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:04Speaker 02

  See, and that was a fashion thing to look good, but you're clothing wise, you'll never go fashion, so you'll never go out of style. Cause since the fashion is the thing that revolves and goes out of, out of style.

• 2:21:14Jocko Willink?

  Origin jeans, uh, I got like the final kind of cut and everything, they're legit. So that's another thing. They're, it's not, it's not a fashion thing, right? They're origin jeans.

• 2:21:28Speaker 02

  Well, they're not mutually exclusive either, so functionality

• 2:21:32Jocko Willink?

  They're strong. They're flexible. They're durable.

• 2:21:35Speaker 02

  That won't go out of style.

• 2:21:36Jocko Willink?

  Right? That stuff's not going out of style.

• 2:21:38Speaker 02

  No, sure it's not.

• 2:21:39Jocko Willink?

  So, there we go. Origin jeans. We are in production with Origin jeans. In production at this time. So, check the website, originmaine.com if you want to get some jeans. Or if your name is not Jocko Willink, you can get a pair of joggers.

• 2:21:55Speaker 02

  The joggers are good. That's the thing. Where I, I wasn't down for the joggers. Pete told me as he opened my, opened my little like, uh, mind or whatever. I put them on. I was like, dang, these are comfortable, but man, they're skinny. They're thin. You know, they're, they're, they're tight.

• 2:22:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:11Speaker 02

  They had a specific look that I wasn't very accustomed to, but, and Pete's noticed it. He was like, yeah, they're like, you know, you gotta, he's like, Jaco, they're probably not for Jaco, but you pull them off. That's what Pete said to me.

• 2:22:22Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you believed him.

• 2:22:23Speaker 02

  I was like, oh, that, I, I hope he was like, being like, honest with it, but yeah, ever since then, I was like, okay, maybe I can do this. So I only wore them at camp. So I was like, oh, I might not wear these at home, but I wear them at camp. And then at camp, I was like, dang, these are good too. And when you jog, they're way better than regular sweatpants. So I'm like, oh, these are good. And they're like, super comfortable too, because you know, the cotton that they use or whatever. And then I'd wear them at home and that's all I would wear. Now, I kinda switched over to that whole thing. For real.

• 2:22:52Jason Gardner?

  How are the pockets? How are the pockets?

• 2:22:54Jocko Willink?

  There's all kinds of life-changing things happen on this podcast. One of them is Echo Charles switching to joggers. Be noted.

• 2:23:02Speaker 02

  Wait, pockets like what? For like functionality?

• 2:23:05Jason Gardner?

  Yeah, like for my everyday carry. So I'm going down to the store and the joggers.

• 2:23:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would say like any other sort of sweatpants situation.

• 2:23:12Jocko Willink?

  Same deal. They have pockets on either side, right?

• 2:23:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:23:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. No, regular sweatpants don't have pockets, bro.

• 2:23:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, they, oh, the thing you're talking about.

• 2:23:20Jocko Willink?

  I'm talking about, you know, like the gym coach from 1979.

• 2:23:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, they're not that. They have pockets for sure.

• 2:23:26Jason Gardner?

  I gotta tell you, I saw those boots online and I'm pretty excited.

• 2:23:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:23:30Jason Gardner?

  Jumping the gun mentioning that now?

• 2:23:32Jocko Willink?

  We're, we're making them. We're making them. I have a pair. And yeah, they're awesome.

• 2:23:36Speaker 02

  Oh, you have a pair of those too?

• 2:23:37Jocko Willink?

  I do have a pair of those. Hey, man, you got your one, your one, like, one degree separation from getting all the new stuff to where you're at.

• 2:23:46Speaker 02

  Really? Cause it feels like 180 and you know, I'm over here looking online at stuff. Anyway, also Mok, right? Mok Train, Jason, we talked earlier.

• 2:23:55Jocko Willink?

  Jason, what's your Mok recipe? Morning recipe?

• 2:23:57Jason Gardner?

  Okay, so I get up in the morning. I brew 20 ounces of coffee. I grind up the beans, do it in the French press. I add a little bit of stevia to sweeten it, but it's not gonna spike my insulin. Then I put some coconut milk in there, or no coconut oil. Grass-fed butter, about a tablespoon of that, some MCT oil, a scoop of vanilla milk. I hit that with a stick blender. Oh.

• 2:24:27Jocko Willink?

  Get that little hitter.

• 2:24:28Jason Gardner?

  I do not have to eat until like 1 or 2 in the afternoon. I get all my fat in early in the morning. So I ain't gotta stress getting good fat in and it's awesome.

• 2:24:38Speaker 02

  That's an advanced take.

• 2:24:39Jocko Willink?

  Are the kids on the milk chain?

• 2:24:41Jason Gardner?

  They are. We, we, and uh.

• 2:24:43Jocko Willink?

  Is it, have you tried strawberry milk? Strawberry Warrior Kids strawberry milk?

• 2:24:47Jason Gardner?

  No, we haven't. We've been doing the chocolate, um, hot chocolate.

• 2:24:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the hot chocolate's awesome.

• 2:24:51Jason Gardner?

  And Iris has been making the pancakes.

• 2:24:53Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. What's the recipe on that?

• 2:24:55Jason Gardner?

  She's just using it and mixing straight up pancakes. Cause Echo was talking about it the other day.

• 2:25:00Speaker 02

  I got it from, there's a guy online who was like, yeah, more pancakes. I was like, dang, that's a good idea. So I just added them. I basically replaced like a portion, a percentage of the pancake mix with milk.

• 2:25:10Jocko Willink?

  I don't even know, I don't know what pancakes are even made of, cause I haven't had them in so long.

• 2:25:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:25:15Jocko Willink?

  That's just wrong.

• 2:25:16Speaker 02

  Hey, bro, that's on you and you're kinda missing out on that one, cause it did, they work out really good. Yeah.

• 2:25:21Jocko Willink?

  What else? Okay, so we got the milk. We're on that. We're on mint. I'm on mint. And I'm actually in this whole deal now where I'm having both mint, peanut butter. I don't really, I don't really like the flavor vanilla, as I've mentioned on here. So I don't have that, but the strawberry too. The Warrior Kids strawberry milk. Which Brian is working on the adult strawberry milk.

• 2:25:41Jason Gardner?

  The vanilla, like I'm not a big vanilla fan either, but it just mixes so well. So like when Iris is making smoothies, it's the vanilla milk in there. I put it in my coffee, cause the mint chocolate chips doesn't work.

• 2:25:55Jocko Willink?

  No, that sounds, that sounds.

• 2:25:57Jason Gardner?

  Cause it's my favorite. Like, okay, I get to have dessert and that's exactly what it is. It scratches that itch when it comes along.

• 2:26:04Jocko Willink?

  See, that's the thing, man. I went out last night. I had a legit steak. Legit. At Ragland OB and I still was needed a little something. I need a little something because they sell this thing at Ragland called the illegal, which is a giant chocolate chip cookie cooked in a cast iron thing. It's massive and then they put uh vanilla ice cream on it, which is the only time I like vanilla. And the vanilla ice cream is all melting. It's just ridiculous. But obviously that's not part of the program. So I left Ragland OB without eating an illegal and I went home and I'm like, I still need some kind of a little hitter. So I went peanut butter.

• 2:26:46Jocko Willink?

  I went peanut butter milk and I just did, I did like a scoop and a half with a li- like a half of shaker of water. I drank that thing. It was so good. I was sitting there saying, this is a milkshake. If this is a milkshake, it's freaking ridiculous. So there you go.

• 2:27:02Speaker 02

  And the added protein and stuff, forget that.

• 2:27:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and, and don't forget the probiotics.

• 2:27:08Jason Gardner?

  You gotta remember that microbiome.

• 2:27:10Speaker 02

  Yes, sir.

• 2:27:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we haven't even gotten to your whole health scenario because what did you say? You're 50 years old or 51?

• 2:27:16Jason Gardner?

  Uh, 49. I'm turning 50 this year.

• 2:27:18Jocko Willink?

  And you're getting after it.

• 2:27:20Jason Gardner?

  I feel great.

• 2:27:21Jocko Willink?

  You feel awesome.

• 2:27:22Jason Gardner?

  Walking around at like 157. And, and before I, you know, before I adjusted my diet and everything, I was 193. And I had all kinds of inflammation and everything hurt and just crappy. And now it's all just dialed in.

• 2:27:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I remember when you were first going down that path because our wives were hiking and you and I met somewhere. And we, you were just talking about like the, you were starting down this path and you were coming home from deployment too.

• 2:27:49Jason Gardner?

  Yeah, because I was like, this is my last deployment. I don't have deployments to go on and get back in shape. So I'm gonna have to stick with it.

• 2:27:59Jocko Willink?

  And um, yeah, so those supplements, joint warfare.

• 2:28:03Jason Gardner?

  Twice a day, do two in the morning and two in the evening and that, the turmeric is amazing.

• 2:28:09Jocko Willink?

  Yep, yep. Crital oil.

• 2:28:11Jason Gardner?

  In the morning, every morning. And then usually uh, anytime I'm gonna do something, the discipline go.

• 2:28:18Jocko Willink?

  The discipline go.

• 2:28:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:28:21Jocko Willink?

  JP said the other day when he took the discipline go, he could, he could see people's thoughts. Anyways, get all that stuff at originmaine.com. Sorry.

• 2:28:29Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:28:30Jocko Willink?

  It's taken a really long time.

• 2:28:31Speaker 02

  All good. Also, Jaco's store. It's called Jaco's store. So Jaco's store.com. You understand. And yeah, they say if you want to represent discipline equals freedom, this is where you can get your shirts, hoodies, hats, trucker hats, flex fit, trucker hats, flex fit.

• 2:28:46Jason Gardner?

  I can go either way.

• 2:28:48Speaker 02

  Oh, yes.

• 2:28:49Jocko Willink?

  Fence walker.

• 2:28:50Speaker 02

  There you go. No. He's both sides, right?

• 2:28:52Jason Gardner?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:53Speaker 02

  He's what do you call it? When you can adapt and adjust, well, either way.

• 2:28:57Jason Gardner?

  That bill has got to have a role in it, though. I am not a, a flat bill ball cap guy.

• 2:29:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:29:03Jocko Willink?

  That's actually strange coming from a California.

• 2:29:04Jason Gardner?

  I know. But that, that hap- that's like in the last couple of decades or something that was not.

• 2:29:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, check.

• 2:29:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. Either way, there you go. Jaco's store. That's where you can get them. Or sorry, Jaco's store.com. Um, also women's stuff on there as well. Yeah. If you want to represent while on the path, that's where you go. It's good. And also Jaco White Tea. If you're deadlifting and you're like tired of your like 500 pound deadlift, tired.

• 2:29:30Jocko Willink?

  Which you should be.

• 2:29:31Speaker 02

  Which, yeah, you know, I can see how you'd be tired of that. Um, and you want it to go up to eight thousand pounds. Jaco White Tea. And it happens to taste good and it happens to be USDA.

• 2:29:44Jocko Willink?

  Organic.

• 2:29:44Speaker 02

  Certified.

• 2:29:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:45Speaker 02

  Organic.

• 2:29:46Jocko Willink?

  Organic.

• 2:29:47Speaker 02

  Yes. That's a good one.

• 2:29:49Jocko Willink?

  Now, that adds a kind of a little spin because people used to say to me, like, did you ever picture that you'd be making tea? And, and it's kind of funny, you know, and I'd be like, yeah, whatever. But now it's like next level. Did you ever picture that you'd be making organic tea?

• 2:30:02Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:30:02Jocko Willink?

  That is kind of a different thing. Maybe I'll be wearing joggers soon. Has the whole world gone crazy? If you, uh, don't subscribe to this podcast, which is shocking to me, but now we have reports from the field of people that listen to 167 podcasts and haven't subscribed to it. And so now Echo has made it clear that you need to subscribe. Also, don't forget about the, the Warrior Kid podcast. You own the Warrior Kid podcast.

• 2:30:31Jason Gardner?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:30:31Jocko Willink?

  Have the kids, have the kids memorized them yet?

• 2:30:34Jason Gardner?

  They love it. I mean, pretty much.

• 2:30:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:37Jason Gardner?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:37Jocko Willink?

  I've been lagging. I don't get them out as much as I can. Part of it is because I like, really like doing those stories from Uncle Jake.

• 2:30:44Jason Gardner?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:30:44Jocko Willink?

  And they take a little bit more time. And so I'm, need to invest the time. The Q, I should just do the Q and A's as well, but anyways, Warrior Kid Podcast, if you want to get your kid on the pot, on the path.

• 2:30:58Jocko Willink?

  And what you, what you and I were talking about earlier of how your kids just don't really want to listen to you. They listen to Uncle Jake.

• 2:31:07Jason Gardner?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 2:31:08Jocko Willink?

  They just listen to Uncle Jake.

• 2:31:10Jason Gardner?

  Absolutely.

• 2:31:10Jocko Willink?

  I had another Master Chief, uh, East Coast Master Chief come out and came to the gym and he's like, bro, and I never, I didn't know, you know, he's just like another guy, East Coast guy that I didn't know. And he's like, he's like, bro, your book, your little warrior kid books, he said, you got my kid. I, he's 11 years old. Everything I did for 11 years to get him to do pushups and pullups failed. He goes, he read that book. I, he's like, I can't thank you. Cause it's awesome. And I was like, dang, it's a hundred percent true. If your, your kids are not going to listen to you as much as you want them to. They will listen to Uncle Jake. For some reason, Uncle Jake will, will take it home for them.

• 2:31:50Jason Gardner?

  I listen to Uncle Jake. I love those books. I've taken out as just reading the books. I'm like, oh yeah. I gotta fix that. Oh, here's something I could do better.

• 2:32:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. It's true. It's, it's, yeah, it's Uncle Jake. Uncle Jake is who, Uncle Jake has good information. He's kinda everybody's Uncle Jake. Yeah.

• 2:32:12Jocko Willink?

  And people, people will say like, oh, are, are, you know, your Uncle Jake to me. And I'm like, I am so not Uncle Jake. If I was Uncle Jake, I'd be so much cooler. Uncle Jake is my Uncle Jake. I'm just a little warrior kid over here trying to, trying to learn, trying to get on the path. That's the way it is. Yep. And Warrior Kid Soap, you can get that Irish Oak, Irish Oaks Ranch.com. Speaking of Warrior Kids, Aiden's making soap on his farm. And he wants you to stay clean. What did my, what did my kids said today?

• 2:32:44Jocko Willink?

  Like, comment and subscribe. I was like, oh my god.

• 2:32:49Speaker 02

  Wait, who said that?

• 2:32:50Jocko Willink?

  Just one of my kids. We, we, I don't know what we're talking about, something you know, oh, so Instagram this and it, and then one of my kids is like, like, comment, subscribe and subscribe.

• 2:32:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:33:00Jocko Willink?

  That's going up there. If I start saying that, you get the joggers out.

• 2:33:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:33:04Jocko Willink?

  We're already making organic tea for some reason, which is just crazy.

• 2:33:08Speaker 02

  But that's a good thing. It's just, you know.

• 2:33:09Jocko Willink?

  I know, it does taste good and it's good for you.

• 2:33:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. So these are all, they, they just sound kind of lighthearted compared to your, you know, your whole thing. Anyway, also, yes, YouTube. By the way, that's where they stay. That's where you can run into these videos where this, because my daughter sometimes will watch your little YouTube videos and that's what they'll say, like, comment and subscribe, just repetitively. So.

• 2:33:29Jocko Willink?

  Programming, programming the children.

• 2:33:32Speaker 02

  I get it. I get it. Oh, yeah. So Jock's not gonna say that, but we do have a YouTube channel.

• 2:33:36Jocko Willink?

  And you're basically right now saying subscribe to the YouTube channel.

• 2:33:39Speaker 02

  If you want.

• 2:33:40Jocko Willink?

  And so.

• 2:33:41Speaker 02

  If you want.

• 2:33:41Jocko Willink?

  Jason says you should like the YouTube channel.

• 2:33:44Speaker 02

  You should like it.

• 2:33:45Jocko Willink?

  And then I'm over here saying you should comment, like, comment and subscribe.

• 2:33:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, here, here's the thing. I don't know that you can like the YouTube channel. You like a video. Yes, which is a quote unquote like, but here's the thing. You like the YouTube channel. You like the YouTube channel. That's a matter of opinion, right? Do you like it? You kind of neutral or you don't like it kind of thing? That's up to you. I can't tell you to like it.

• 2:34:06Jocko Willink?

  If you want to have fun, you can go to the YouTube channel, Jocko Podcast, and you can look at the people that attack the downvotes.

• 2:34:19Jocko Willink?

  So there'll be, and, and you know, we don't have many downvotes, which is I guess cool.

• 2:34:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's crazy.

• 2:34:24Jocko Willink?

  Or whatever, thumbs down. People get mad. People get mad. Oh my goodness. Kind of ISIS terrorists just gave, who the 13 ISIS members that gave this a downvote? You will rot in hell. So thanks for having my back there. They also like to let, like to let everyone know that Echo looks jacked. Echo looks, whatever. There's a video that was just released. Um, what was the most recent video you just did that just got released?

• 2:34:50Speaker 02

  The normal face one.

• 2:34:51Jocko Willink?

  The normal face one.

• 2:34:51Speaker 02

  Overreaction one.

• 2:34:52Jocko Willink?

  Overreaction. You, you released the video. You are not in the video, but people are saying that they could feel that you were jacked just from watching the video.

• 2:35:01Jocko Willink?

  So yeah, that goes Jack psychological warfare. You can get that on iTunes, Google Play, MP3 platforms. If you think you might have a moment of weakness in your day to day life, press play and you'll get pushed through that moment of weakness.

• 2:35:15Speaker 02

  By Jaco, by the way.

• 2:35:16Jocko Willink?

  By me.

• 2:35:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. And not pushed. We'll say spotted. That's better.

• 2:35:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:21Speaker 02

  Cause some people, they're not in the mood to get pushed.

• 2:35:23Jocko Willink?

  Pragmatically reasoned with.

• 2:35:26Speaker 02

  Yes, reasoned with.

• 2:35:27Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:35:29Speaker 02

  Very good. Also speaking of reason, when you want to improve your home gym, I don't know, maybe even your commercial gym, your 24 fitness, I don't know. Go to on it.com slash Jaco. Get yourself more kettlebells like me that the stormtrooper one, by the way.

• 2:35:45Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you're gonna break out some Star Wars nerd stuff over here, bro?

• 2:35:49Jason Gardner?

  Yeah, you ready?

• 2:35:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:35:50Jason Gardner?

  So Jenga Fett was the guy that they used for, they're like, oh, you're the perfect warrior. We're gonna make all the clones based on you. And I believe that his deal he made with those people is like, you're gonna give me one of the clones back that I'm gonna raise as my son who turned out to be Bobo Fett.

• 2:36:07Speaker 02

  Yes. Okay. Yeah. Wait, wait. So you're taking, you're letting me know because I messed that up.

• 2:36:11Jason Gardner?

  I think so. I think Jade.

• 2:36:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:36:13Jason Gardner?

  Tuned you up and then on the last podcast, it, it, it, you guys were talking about it again.

• 2:36:17Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:36:18Jocko Willink?

  Is there, is there books for that?

• 2:36:21Jason Gardner?

  I don't know. It's just something that you kind of absorb.

• 2:36:23Jocko Willink?

  Closet nerd, Jason.

• 2:36:24Jason Gardner?

  Oh, hey, I played Dungeons and Dragons when I was in high school.

• 2:36:28Speaker 02

  So yes.

• 2:36:29Jason Gardner?

  And yeah, absolutely. And, and I can be open about it today. I would have been horrified to tell you when I was in high school that I played Dungeons and Dragons or that got out, but right now I don't care.

• 2:36:44Jocko Willink?

  You got all kinds, you, you got all kinds of like little nerd, uh, no, science fiction nerdism, right?

• 2:36:50Jason Gardner?

  Yeah. Enjoy science fiction. It's a lot of fun.

• 2:36:52Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 2:36:53Jason Gardner?

  It's cool. My, my, my younger brother, who's a tattoo artist up in San Clemente, he has a complete stormtrooper costume.

• 2:37:00Speaker 02

  So do I.

• 2:37:01Jason Gardner?

  Do you?

• 2:37:02Speaker 02

  So are you?

• 2:37:03Jason Gardner?

  Are you in the 500, is it the 501st Vader's fist?

• 2:37:06Speaker 02

  No. So, well, mine is, I got the stormtrooper costume, like the full one.

• 2:37:12Jocko Willink?

  What's 501st Vader's fist?

• 2:37:14Jason Gardner?

  So there's an org, there's. There's, yeah, there's an organization that does a lot of.

• 2:37:22Jason Gardner?

  Oh, just like work for like going to see cancer kids and stuff like that and it's all these people that are Star Wars villains. And because they don't make, no one can make costumes because it's all licensed. So they have to make them themselves and then you go there and they'll validate it and say, okay, you're good to go. Your costume is good and then, and I hope I'm not screwing up the unit name, but I think it's the, the, the five oh first Vader's fist.

• 2:37:48Speaker 02

  I've never, I've never heard of that. That's pretty cool. Actually.

• 2:37:51Jocko Willink?

  Going deep.

• 2:37:51Speaker 02

  The one, the one I have is like, I don't know if it's a licensed costume or what.

• 2:37:56Jason Gardner?

  There aren't any. You just, it has to be so good that they're like, they'll validate it.

• 2:38:01Jocko Willink?

  There's no such thing as a licensed costume for any for.

• 2:38:06Jason Gardner?

  No, people just make the stuff somehow.

• 2:38:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. The ones that cost were like a lot. They were like a few, well, I bought two. There's a Darth Vader one and a stormtrooper. They were like a few thousand dollars.

• 2:38:15Jason Gardner?

  Yeah, that's what my brother.

• 2:38:16Jocko Willink?

  A few thousand dollars for.

• 2:38:17Speaker 02

  Well, not just to have it though. That's the thing.

• 2:38:20Jocko Willink?

  Cause you wrote it off for flex point.

• 2:38:21Speaker 02

  Right. So I was making these videos called like the hobbies of Darth Vader.

• 2:38:25Jason Gardner?

  I gotta go check those out.

• 2:38:26Jocko Willink?

  Those are really good videos.

• 2:38:27Speaker 02

  So, so we used them for that.

• 2:38:29Jocko Willink?

  The potential in those videos, by the way.

• 2:38:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:38:31Jocko Willink?

  You didn't get, you didn't get where you needed to get.

• 2:38:34Speaker 02

  Well, we were going, so I'd feature like, um, like famous jujitsu people or what, you know, like Jeff Glover, Keeney Corney, like all these guys.

• 2:38:41Jocko Willink?

  The premise is we're just living our life, but Darth Vader's here too.

• 2:38:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's kind of here too.

• 2:38:47Jocko Willink?

  So like he's doing things.

• 2:38:48Speaker 02

  So he's going on dates. He, you know, he's doing this stuff. Anyway, it turned out kind of funny or whatever. So there's one where the stormtrooper was in it. He was kind of his lawyer when he got arrested for chopping Dean's head off. It was pretty good. Yeah. Dean comes off, he's like, he's like the ex-boyfriend of his date or whatever. So, so Vader like chops his head off. So the next episode he gets arrested for that and then his lawyer is a stormtrooper. Um, so that's why.

• 2:39:11Jason Gardner?

  I love it.

• 2:39:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:13Jason Gardner?

  Do you ever see that one where they did like a cops episode, but it was troopers and they're stormtroopers? And they show up to Luke's aunt and uncle and it's really a domestic dispute and they kill everybody.

• 2:39:28Speaker 02

  Nah.

• 2:39:29Jason Gardner?

  It's spiritual. It's old.

• 2:39:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a lot of fun to be had with those guys for sure. Nonetheless, I got the kettlebell and I got it from Onnit and they got some good stuff on their Onnit.com. That's yeah, good spot.

• 2:39:42Jocko Willink?

  Including Star Wars stuff. I also got some books. Mikey and the Dragon.

• 2:39:48Jocko Willink?

  Mike and the Dragons. Uh, Jason, you were actually maybe the third or fourth person to hear me read Mikey and the Dragons. And I did it on the beach in Coronado to you and Iris. I was so excited to read it to you guys.

• 2:40:01Jason Gardner?

  I couldn't believe it. When you started rhyming and the whole thing, I'm like, how did you do that? It's like he's still rhyming and it's still going and this story is just awesome.

• 2:40:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, um, super stoked on Mikey and the Dragons. It's, how old are your kids?

• 2:40:19Jason Gardner?

  Uh, eight and six.

• 2:40:21Jocko Willink?

  And what age group can it go down to, would you say?

• 2:40:24Jason Gardner?

  I'd say probably three.

• 2:40:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it can get young. It's got very beautiful pictures that are bright and colorful. There's so, yeah, and then the story rhymes. It's gonna make your kids smarter. And there was times where I was, when I was writing it. You know, they say write at a certain level, but at the same time, I put some words in there. That kids aren't gonna necessarily know right away. And so they need to look them up or they need to learn them. Poise is one of them. I remember using the word poise and I was thinking, well, most kids won't know what poise is. And then I thought to myself, good, now they can learn a new word, be smarter.

• 2:40:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a good point though. When you say where does it go down to? So three, I would say there. My son's like two. He was like just before two and a half and I'd read it more reading it to my daughter. He's there, but he'll catch certain things, you know, when there's like monsters ready to bite. He'll be, you know, like he'll know certain stuff. So as you kind of get older, you absorb more and more. But yeah, if you're two, yeah, I have books for them too.

• 2:41:20Jocko Willink?

  There you go. All kids. If your kids are a little bit older, you can get in way of the warrior kid. You can get Mark's Mission, which is the second book in that series. And now we have book three coming out. The title of book three is Where There's a Will. And Mark gets involved in some more situations, but luckily his Uncle Jake is there to help him out. I get so many pictures of kids doing pull ups, working out, studying. They're going to be warrior kids, so get that book for your kids. Get that book for your library, get that book for your school, get that book for anyone that you know that has kids. You'll be thankful and they will be thankful and they'll come and thank you in. You know what's cool?

• 2:42:05Jocko Willink?

  Going to wrestling tournaments. This is pretty cool. I've had kids that are, you know, freshmen in high school. So they're 14 years old or whatever. And they're like, hey, I read Warrior Kid, that's why I wrestle. Yeah.

• 2:42:19Jason Gardner?

  Boom.

• 2:42:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Think about that. So three years ago, when it came out, the kid got it and now he's wrestling. That's what I'm talking about. Get your kids that. Kids will listen to Uncle Jake. Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. If you want to know how to get after it, there you go. You have to wonder. You can just get the field manual. If you want the audio, it's on iTunes, Amazon Music, Google Play and other MPV platforms.

• 2:42:43Jason Gardner?

  Sure.

• 2:42:45Jocko Willink?

  Extreme Ownership, first book I wrote with my brother Leif Babin.

• 2:42:50Jocko Willink?

  And then that follow on book is The Dichotomy of Leadership, which is

• 2:42:58Jocko Willink?

  takes all those lessons and shows where you can screw them up and then teaches how to fix them. Dichotomy of Leadership. Both those books, me and Leif, we wrote them. Check them out. And then we have Echelon Front Leadership Consultancy. We solve problems through leadership. It's me. It's Leif Babin. It's JP Denell. It's Dave Burke. It's Flynn Cochrane. It's Mike Sorelli. It's Mike Byema. And it is now also Jason Gardner.

• 2:43:31Jocko Willink?

  Jason is at Echelon Front. He just retired and this is what we are doing. He's already got gigs booked, which is awesome. Echelonfront.com. If you need help with leadership in your organization, we will help you. That's what we do. We have the muster in 2019. 23, 24 May in Chicago, 1920 September in Denver, 4 and 5 December in Sydney, Australia. Every event we've done is sold out. Go to extremeownership.com if you want to come. Otherwise, it's going to be sold out and you won't be able to come and you'll be all mad and you'll be mad at me.

• 2:44:11Jocko Willink?

  And then someone said that it's like when I went to Lollapalooza and I went and saw Rollins, who I kinda knew. And I was like, "Hey, man, can you get us in?" And Rollins said, "It'd be easier to sneak you into Fort Knox." And I kinda like was all hardcore, like you kinda forgot what it's like in the streets.

• 2:44:33Speaker 02

  But it wasn't up to him.

• 2:44:35Jocko Willink?

  Exactly. Now, now I'm the guy. Now I'm the guy that's going to be saying, "Hey, it'd be easier to sneak you into Fort Knox." I gave you a heads up.

• 2:44:42Speaker 02

  You're big time now, so.

• 2:44:43Jocko Willink?

  So, check. That's that. EF Online, online interactive training from Echelon Front. We needed to speak to more people and we don't have enough instructors. Couldn't run enough musters each year. So, if you want to know what we teach, you want to get granular with it, check out efonline.com.

• 2:45:09Jocko Willink?

  And finally, we have the EF Overwatch, which is where we take guys that came from special operations and combat aviation. They have massive amounts of experience, leadership experience. They understand the principles we talk about, we write about, that we teach. They understand those and they will bring them into your company. You can hire them to work and help your organization win. EFOverwatch.com is where you can make that happen. And if you want to keep this conversation going.

• 2:45:43Jocko Willink?

  Which is a pretty varied conversation where we're talking about Star Wars and sniper operations and joggers and D and D. I mean, that's pretty good spectrum, you know, you might be that D and D, old school D and D player with your multi-sided dice getting after it. And if you want to talk to us about that, we are on the interwebs, we're on Twitter, we are on Instagram, we are on the fishy boy. Echo is at Echo Charles. I am at Jocko Willink. Jason is at Jason N Gardner.

• 2:46:20Jason Gardner?

  Jason N Gardner at on Facebook, Jason dot N dot Gardner on Instagram and Jason N Gardner on Twitter.

• 2:46:30Jocko Willink?

  And you're new to all three platforms?

• 2:46:32Jason Gardner?

  No, I've been on Instagram and Facebook for a while.

• 2:46:34Jocko Willink?

  Okay, just new to Twitter.

• 2:46:35Jason Gardner?

  New to Twitter.

• 2:46:37Jocko Willink?

  Have you ever checked out Twitter before?

• 2:46:38Jason Gardner?

  No.

• 2:46:39Jocko Willink?

  It's mayhem. And then I heard.

• 2:46:41Jason Gardner?

  I'm gonna have to be careful.

• 2:46:42Jocko Willink?

  No, no, I heard, no, don't like you do have to be careful.

• 2:46:45Jason Gardner?

  Yeah.

• 2:46:45Jocko Willink?

  And you kind of don't, but it's weird. But then I found out like they were talking about, uh, maybe it was Sam Harris and he was talking about there, there's legitimate, there's Russian people, Russian bots. It sounds so funny. They're sitting there just trolling. They're just trying to create mayhem. And so we don't have a lot of mayhem, to be quite honest with you. There's not a lot of mayhem coming at me for whatever reason, but everyone's pretty cool. And it's, it's, I've gotten a lot out of it, out of Twitter, out of Instagram, out of Facebook, people giving me information, recommending books. I'm, I'm the, the book recommendations because I'm pretty much exhausting my personal knowledge of books right now.

• 2:47:26Jocko Willink?

  And so right now I'm getting so many good books from troopers out there that are letting me know what's up. So Echo, anything else? Any other Star Wars comments?

• 2:47:38Speaker 02

  Well, you know, not for right now, no, but now that we know that, you know, we, you Jason has the knowledge. Yeah, man, maybe later, but yes, for now, thanks for, thanks for being here.

• 2:47:48Jocko Willink?

  And Jason, we'll, we'll continue this conversation, you know, next podcast. Anything else? Any closing comments?

• 2:47:55Jason Gardner?

  I'm really excited to be on the podcast. Uh, I just want to tell my wife Iris that she's amazing and made my life so much better by meeting her. Uh, my oldest son Chase, how proud I am of him. And, uh, Storm and Thor, love you guys. Looking forward to seeing you soon.

• 2:48:13Jocko Willink?

  Awesome. And of course, um, we actually could not do this podcast or even live the lives that we live if it wasn't for our people in uniform around the world, here at home, our military personnel, police and law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics and EMTs, correctional officers, border patrol, all first responders out there, thank you for what you do every day so that we can do what we do every day. And to everyone else that's listening, until that next podcast,

• 2:48:52Jocko Willink?

  remember that advice that Rothgar gave Beowulf, that you should choose the eternal rewards, not the short-term ones. And keep it always in the back of your mind, that your piercing eye will dim and darken, and death will arrive to sweep you away. So until then,

• 2:49:22Jocko Willink?

  keep getting out there into the world and getting after it. And until next time, this is Jason Gardner and Echo and Jaco, out.