Bert Kreischer Has a Stoicism Problem

Bert Kreischer wants to be Stoic. It just doesn’t come naturally. In this episode, he talks with Ryan about why Stoicism feels almost impossible for him, why criticism still gets under his skin, his hot take on why Nero may have been a good emperor, and some truly insane stories from his life. Bert Kreischer https://www.instagram.com/bertkreischer/?hl=en is a stand up comedian, actor, and podcast host of 2 Bears, 1 Cave https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/2-bears-1-cave-with-tom-segura-bert-kreischer/id1468013270. You can watch both his comedy special The Machine https://www.netflix.com/title/80992973and now his latest show, Free Bert https://www.netflix.com/title/81696123, on Netflix! Follow Bert on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/bertkreischer/?hl=en, TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@bertkreischer?lang=en, X https://x.com/bertkreischer, and YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@bertkreischer Bert’s new series Free Bert https://www.netflix.com/title/81696123is officially out on Netflix! Watch Here: https://www.netflix.com/title/81696123 👉 Support the podcast and go deeper into Stoicism by subscribing toThe Daily Stoic Premium https://dailystoic.supercast.com/ - unlock ad-free listening, early access, and bonus content:https://dailystoic.supercast.com/ 🎥 Watch the video episodes onThe Daily Stoic YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@DailyStoic/videos:https://www.youtube.com/@DailyStoic/videos 🎙️ Follow The Daily Stoic Podcast onInstagram https://www.instagram.com/dailystoicpodcast/?hl=en:https://www.instagram.com/dailystoicpodcast ✉️ Want Stoic wisdom delivered to your inbox daily? Sign up for the FREE Daily Stoic email athttps://dailystoic.com/dailyemail 🏛 Get Stoic inspired books, medallions, and prints to remember these lessons at the Daily Stoic Store:https://store.dailystoic.com/ 📱 Follow us: Instagram https://www.instagram.com/dailystoic/,Twitter https://twitter.com/dailystoic,YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@DailyStoic,TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@daily_stoic?lang=en, andFacebook https://www.facebook.com/dailystoic See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ryan Holiday?

  Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, designed to help bring those four key Stoic virtues, courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom into the real world.

• 0:14Ryan Holiday?

  Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. We survived the snowpocalypse. It was a long day, Sunday. Long mornings. All the schools were canceled. So got a little bonus morning with the kids. And now I am back sitting in my office doing some writing. And it's funny, it occurred to me, I was sitting in this very office. I was in this very chair. I don't remember exactly what I was working on. It's probably the wisdom book, maybe. Yeah, it would have been the wisdom book. This is the summer of 2024 and my phone rings and it's Tom Segura, the comedian who I know from when I did his podcast. And he came out and did the Daily Stoic Podcast. But he was calling me and you know, these days you don't get a lot of phone calls.

• 0:58Ryan Holiday?

  Everyone texts or emails or whatever, but it's just calling out of the blue. So I answer and it's certainly not what I expected. He basically goes, hey, I'm sitting here with Bert Kreischer and he thinks Stoicism sucks. Let me play this.

• 1:15Speaker 01

  Oh, we getting him on?

• 1:17Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:18Speaker 01

  Hey, Ryan.

• 1:18Speaker 02

  Ah, come on.

• 1:20Speaker 01

  Hey, I'm here with Will Compton and Bert Kreischer. And Burt is shitting all over Stoicism and says that it's stupid and it's a dumb way to live and he thinks it's just, you know, like.

• 1:34Speaker 02

  They're paraphrasing, Ryan, but they're real close.

• 1:36Speaker 01

  But they're close, but we're close. So I was like, oh, then why, he's like, yeah, I see this stuff come up on my feed. It's like fucking whatever, you know, it's just whatever. Marcus Aurelius, whatever. So.

• 1:45Speaker 03

  He said how the power of saying no is so stupid.

• 1:48Speaker 01

  Power of no is stupid. I just say yes to everything.

• 1:51Speaker 02

  He just answered the phone with a hard yes, right? He should have said, send a voicemail. He's a stoic.

• 1:58Speaker 01

  Ryan, can you just like, do you mind just giving a, like, maybe a basic principle of Stoicism that we can, you know, like, hopefully show Bert why this is a value?

• 2:11Speaker 03

  That he's angry at the wrong thing.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13Speaker 02

  I'm here. I'm like a Scientologist. I'm ready to be converted.

• 2:16Ryan Holiday?

  All right. Okay. So the basic idea of Stoicism is that we don't control what happens in the world or around us, but we control how we respond to the world around us. It's pretty basic. I think it's pretty difficult to argue with. The idea is that instead of spending time stressing about what other people do, you focus on what you do. Instead of focusing on the mistakes you've made, you focus on how you're going to do better next time. And it's this idea that you try to go through the world around these sort of four main attributes, the sort of virtues of Stoicism, again, I think are pretty hard to argue with. It's courage, self-discipline, justice, and wisdom. So that's the philosophy

• 3:00Ryan Holiday?

  that has existed for, you know, 2,000-plus years. Some of the greatest, most powerful people in history have ascribed to it. And then all sorts of people who went through, you know, horrendous ordeals, whether they were thrown in prison for, you know, crimes they didn't commit, or dealt with exile and death and, you know, all this shit that life can throw at a person. They sort of turned to this philosophy. So it's not these abstract ideas that you would, you know, study in this boring college class. It's supposed to be a framework for dealing with the difficulty of life.

• 3:33Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  Okay, but what is your?

• 3:35Speaker 02

  What's the opposite? I'm the opposite of that.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  What is your main issue against, why are you rolling your eyes at Marcus Aurelius? Like, what is that supposed to be?

• 3:45Speaker 02

  Like, okay. So like, just the names?

• 3:48Ryan Holiday?

  Is your familiarity with Marcus Aurelius, Bert, that he's the old guy that dies at the beginning of Gladiator?

• 3:54Speaker 02

  No. No, no, no, no. No, no, no.

• 3:56Speaker 03

  No, he thinks there's just another guy somewhere in that world that thought he was full of shit.

• 4:00Speaker 02

  Wasn't Marcus Aurelius like Caesar's kid or something?

• 4:03Ryan Holiday?

  No, he was the emperor of Rome.

• 4:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, same, same.

• 4:08Ryan Holiday?

  Same thing.

• 4:08Speaker 02

  Nepo baby.

• 4:09Ryan Holiday?

  We're hundreds of years apart, but okay.

• 4:11Speaker 02

  Okay. Okay. So on the opposite, just the name Stoic is not how I live my life. Like, I'm not Stoic.

• 4:18Ryan Holiday?

  So that was a surreal interruption. I usually don't answer my phone or have it on Do Not Disturb. I'm certainly glad that I answered that one. I texted him after we followed up. I said, "Stoicism is not some wallflower cynicism. It's perfectly wonderful to enjoy your success. The only problem is if you think it makes you special or that you could die without it." And he says, "I wish I had said that. You are one smart motherfucker," which was nice. He says, "So happy to have connected today despite my cynicism about Stoicism. I'm kind of obsessed about it and your name comes up on my tour bus sometimes." So we've gone back and forth. He's a nice guy. We connected when Mel Robbins was here because he had just had Mel Robbins on.

• 4:58Ryan Holiday?

  Anyways, he came out to do the podcast on Friday and that's what I wanted to bring you today. I think he's a fascinating guy. I think he's a funny guy and I just watched his new show on Netflix, Free Bert, which I thought was absolutely hilarious. And, and you know, I wanted to see if his understanding of Stoicism had changed since we last talked and we really got into it. We had quite an in-depth conversation about Nero, as you'll hear in this episode. And he also told some insane stories that would only happen to Bert Kreischer. I think you're really going to like this episode. This is part one. I'll bring you part two later in the week. If you don't know who Bert Kreischer is, you probably do. You're just maybe not putting a face to the name. He's a hilarious comedian. He takes his shirt off a lot, although as we talk about in the show,

• 5:41Ryan Holiday?

  he does not want to be known for that. He's the host of Two Bears, One Cave with Tom Segura. When I did that podcast, Burt wasn't there, but you've probably seen some of their very viral clips. He was on the Tom Brady roast and many other things. He had a huge movie on Netflix called The Machine, which is based on one of his most infamous stories and he tours arenas all over the world. You can follow Bert on all platforms at Bert Kreischer and watch Free Bert on Netflix. Samantha and I watched all six episodes before they came out and then it just debuted actually the day he was there. And we really enjoyed it. It was hilarious and I loved this episode and I think you will too.

• 6:25Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I love the show. I thought it was hilarious.

• 6:27Speaker 02

  You watched it?

• 6:27Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I watched it. All six. Yeah, all six.

• 6:29Speaker 02

  Well, this interview's over.

• 6:30Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. No, no, I thought it was funny because my, my kids just started at like a fancy school and I could relate.

• 6:37Speaker 02

  You run into, I mean, my kids are in college now, but you run into those dads that are like, you want to do coke? And you're like, no.

• 6:44Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I, no one, no one's asked me to do coke.

• 6:46Speaker 02

  I live in LA.

• 6:46Ryan Holiday?

  But yeah, it kind of puts you back in being in school again because you're like, there's a hierarchy. It's weird with like the youngest parents. It's like, it's a weird.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  I remember when, do you remember the first time you heard the phrase, oh, it's all politics? Like as a kid?

• 7:01Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, sure.

• 7:01Speaker 02

  It was like, for me, it was all-star baseball and I was one of the best players at age seven. And I didn't make the All-Star team.

• 7:10Ryan Holiday?

  Okay.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  And then I was like, why didn't I make the All-Star? I was one of the best players in the entire league and they're like, it's politics.

• 7:15Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  I was like, what? And they're like, well, the older kids, their dads are coaches and they're going to make the All-Star team because this is their last year in this league. So you're going to have another year. So you, you'll be on the All-Star team next year. And I was like, well, this is so stupid.

• 7:29Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 7:29Speaker 02

  And then I looked at my dad and I go, why don't you just become a coach? I can be on the All-Star team. And he was like, okay.

• 7:34Ryan Holiday?

  It's a lot. It's a lot of that.

• 7:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:36Ryan Holiday?

  No, I thought it was good. I thought it was a great show.

• 7:39Speaker 02

  It's all that matters. Thank you.

• 7:40Ryan Holiday?

  One of the themes I took from the show is like people not taking you seriously.

• 7:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:44Ryan Holiday?

  Does that, does that feel real to you?

• 7:46Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. That's why I put it in.

• 7:47Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 7:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I'll be very candid and I understand that people may receive this the wrong way, but after listening to enough of your, your fucking book, I listen to it as I sleep and I, I think I understand stoicism now. I think a lot of people blow me off because I take my shirt off and, and they kind of maybe look past the fact that I'm like a really good storyteller, which is completely fine. Listen, there's a lot of people that only come because I take my shirt off.

• 8:12Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 8:12Speaker 02

  And I've had a really great career and I wasn't supposed to have any of this career. So I can't really crap. It's like someone saying Jimmy Buffett sings Cheeseburger in Paradise. He's not a good musician and you're like. Hold on, he's got some bangers like you're overlooking the catalog. Sure. And so, so yeah, but it, but it is, it does, it does, uh, does sit with me sometimes when you're like, cause you'll read a comment, which I know as a stoic, you're not supposed to do. Yeah. And, and it'll be like this guy, all he's, all he does is a fat alcoholic who takes his shirt off, which is, it's accurate. There's a little more, there's like, there should be a dot, dot, dot to that. Yeah. But, uh, and then I, and I leaned in and when I, when I offered up the very intro to this of the, of the TV show, to the writers and producers is based off a real story that happened to me at a corporate.

• 8:57Speaker 02

  I went to a corporate and I was like, and they're like, they're huge fans. They're huge fucking fans. I was like, for real? And they're like, yeah, hedge fund. I was in veil. They flew me out for veil. It was 25 grand. I'd fallen off a waterfall two days before and my wife's like, baby, you can't miss this show. Yeah. 25 grand was like a game changer for us. Sure. So I went out and I was like, I was like looking at them. I was like, I don't have anything in common with any dude in here. Yeah. And I was like, what do they like about me? And then I got up on stage and I ripped my shirt off and went bananas. And I started with my material and one guy was like, uh, did, hold on, I'm gonna stop you right now before you get too far. Do the shirt one more time and tell the machine and then we're good. And I was like, huh? He was like, just do the shirt one more time and go right into the machine. That's what I told everyone about.

• 9:41Speaker 02

  So like them, and then we're good. And then you'll come drink with us and just give us nicknames. And I was like, oh, okay. So I did it. Dance monkey. Yeah, but for 25 grand, you'd be shocked how hard this monkey dances. Yeah, yeah, I get it. And so then, uh, I did it and then I drank with them. They eat pills and they were like, they're just rich. They would wanna do coke. And I was, I was paying pillows because of my fall and. How did you fall off a waterfall? I feel like you, you. In a moment of non stoicism. I love talking about stoicism. Yeah. Cause I believe in the, I believe, and by the way, I am wildly ready to be turned on to stoicism. Okay. I'm wildly ready for it. Cause I think I need it. Yeah. I've, I've listened to your book on repeat when I sleep every night, every night.

• 10:22Speaker 02

  And I pick up at parts and I fall asleep at parts and I, and I kinda remember parts. I can't tell if it's Tom or Jefferson or George Washington. And so like, and I, but I love the boxer slept. I love everything. So. But wait, what book? I have no idea, dude. Okay, is it my voice? Holiday. Yeah, it's your voice. Okay, okay. So now that it's got. So, um, in a moment of non stoicism, I was rappelling off a waterfall for work and it was the last episode of Trip Flip. Right before I got fired from the Travel Channel. I always realize this is all gonna go away, even life. I think about that in the mornings when I wake up. But I always, I have a very fleeting feeling in life of like, I remember the last time, I remember that when Bird Conqueror was about to get, I knew it was canceled.

• 11:02Speaker 02

  And I got into a town car to go to a theme park in LA. And I remember getting in the town car going, enjoy this. This may be the very last town car you get in, because they're expensive. Sure. And I was rappelling off a waterfall and I had a moment. I said, this, you've done a lot of really cool stuff for Travel Channel. This might be the last cool thing you do. And I was like, hey, man, take a minute, take it in. Yeah. And I turned and I looked, I was like 210 feet up and I overlooked this canyon in North Carolina and I was like, this is beautiful. And I was like, let's have a moment, like just me and you, Bert, like just me and you. And I, and I kind of started fucking around. And then I decided to swing out wide. And as I did, my foot hit some algae and I flipped upside down in the waterfall.

• 11:45Speaker 02

  And I started getting waterboarded by the waterfall upside down. It's now hitting me in the face and it won't spin me back around. And I don't know, I have video of it. I don't know what happened if I, but I let go, my backhand let go. And I dropped like 25 feet onto a rock. And I thought I, I really thought I broke my back. Yeah. But I didn't. I was fine. But, uh, I mean, I'm not fine. It took me a while to recover. And then I was laying in a hospital bed. I told my wife and then she was like, well, you have that corporate in Vail. And I was like, baby, I'm, I fell off a waterfall. And she goes, hey, I love you. It's 25 grand. Right. She's like, Island, I will meet you at the Denver airport. We'll get you to Vail. We'll get you in and out of the gig. And then we'll get you home. And I was like, all right.

• 12:27Speaker 02

  But that's, so like everything in the, in the TV show is based off something in real life. And I just wanted to pull from like, You know, the thing I'm drawn to about Stoicism is, and I don't know if it's real or not. I don't know if you have to work on it. I don't know if it's forced. I don't know if you're a natural stoic or not. I don't know if you are what I am, which is a natural, like I'm a raw nerve.

• 12:46Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 12:46Speaker 02

  But the thing that I drew from that, that I drawn towards it is, um, and I leaned into this is like, I am a very sensitive person and I do want to fit in. And I do want people like me. And I know that that's not popular online. I know they call that something like a try hard.

• 13:00Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 13:01Speaker 02

  I go, okay, cool. But what am I supposed to do? Like, that's who I am. If you go to, if I go to a party and I don't know you, I'm going to introduce myself to you. I know I'm not supposed to. I know that we're supposed to stand in the fucking corner like we're all fucking Bill Burr and Joe Rogan, but you're not. I know them. No one's them. Okay? And so like I, I like, I am just me. I'm Burt.

• 13:20Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  And so I tried to put as much of that in the show and show my kind of warts and all, like, yeah.

• 13:25Ryan Holiday?

  I would say everything up until when you're fiddling with the, uh, the gear that you're not supposed to mess with. It seems pretty stoic, taking stock, being present, appreciating the thing. That's all. What, what part of the story do you think is not stoic?

• 13:39Speaker 02

  When I started swinging out going like, let's have a little fun.

• 13:42Ryan Holiday?

  Okay. I think, I think having fun counts too. Maybe the only non stoic thing was be like, if you're screaming your head off while you're hanging upside down.

• 13:48Speaker 02

  I was, I was screaming my fucking head off. I was getting, by the way, it's the second time it had happened to me. And the first time I was only eight feet in the air. So when I let go, I was fine. And then I just was like, I didn't know how high I was.

• 13:58Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 13:58Speaker 02

  But yeah, I get confused by Stoicism and I want to be it, but I felt like, I felt like at a period of time, I was listening to guys who were getting beaten up online saying, yeah, I read a book about Stoicism. That's what I am now. And then I was like, huh?

• 14:13Ryan Holiday?

  Cause that's how we got connected. I remember I was just sitting in my office one day and Tom called me and, and then, and he said, uh, I'm talking with Burt and he thinks Stoicism is bullshit. And that, that's I think how we got connected.

• 14:26Speaker 02

  Okay. So I, I don't want to shit on him, but my assistant Kyle, who you might've met, and, and I'm just saying like, this is a perfect example. We all sit in the bus one time. And he was homeschooled and we were like, was that hard going to parties? He was like, no, I was the mysterious guy. And thank you. I love that you laughed because we were like, hey buddy, we all went to parties and we didn't know anybody.

• 14:45Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 14:46Speaker 02

  But we weren't, and he was like, no, man, I just stood in the corner. And I feel like that's what a stoic does is just sits in the corner and goes, but I don't know what there's, are they really?

• 14:53Ryan Holiday?

  I'm not sure there's any mysterious guys at parties in, in high school. Those, those are called creeps.

• 14:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. By the way, thank you, Kyle, for letting me share that. But like, but like, I don't know if Stoicism is something, if it's a thing you put on or how you authentically get there. I would love to authentically get there. I would love to not be at a party and someone say, for example, someone go, it's so funny, I love waterfalls. And then I would love to go, I have a great story about waterfalls. I fell off a waterfall in North Carolina. It was a great story, but I'm gonna shut my fucking mouth. Cause that's what a stoic does. And then you go, it's so interesting. Tell me about what you like about waterfalls. It's a fucking waterfall.

• 15:35Ryan Holiday?

  It seems like you think being a stoic means being introverted and you're extroverted. So you're not stoic.

• 15:41Speaker 02

  Like, okay, so is it George Washington or Benjamin Franklin?

• 15:45Ryan Holiday?

  George Washington is the one who's more interested in Stoicism.

• 15:47Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 15:48Ryan Holiday?

  Frank, there's some Franklin stuff too, but George Washington is very reserved and.

• 15:52Speaker 02

  So he doesn't let his anger get the best of him?

• 15:54Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 15:55Speaker 02

  Dude, if, if I get upset or if I get my feelings hurt, it's uncontrollable.

• 16:00Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 16:00Speaker 02

  Oh, it's insane. Like, I'm trying to think of a good example recently where my feelings got hurt. But it's like, it overwhelms me.

• 16:07Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 16:08Speaker 02

  And then you're like, well, shit, how do I get past that? Are there like things I can do every morning where I wake up and I go, here's the stoic workout, you know? And it's like, it's like, you know, journal about this, journal about that. Cause I'll do it. I wanna get past, I'll give you a perfect example. This is gonna sound ridiculous today, but it sounds real the moment it happens. Tom and I did Christmas Day for Netflix and for NFL. And I fly home, I share Christmas dinner with my family. I wake up the next day and I'm, I'm really happy. It went well, Netflix is happy. It was a really great experience and I had Christmas with my parents and I'm sitting on my recliner. And I'm just going through the news and I'm not thinking and I see my name and I go, oh, cool. I don't see what it is. And then it says Bert Kreischer ruins Christmas Day.

• 16:53Speaker 02

  Okay, now I know George Washington would go, that has nothing to do with me. Yeah. That has to do with this writer, didn't have anything good to write about, about the game. The game wasn't that good and there wasn't much going on in the game. And he needed to click, get clicks. So he used a famous guy. Yeah. Who will get clicks and then use a good catchphrase and then cherry picked comments. Terry pick comments, he did. Yeah. From the post that were very targeted towards Burt. Like, these are guys, the one guy called me Bart, you're like, okay, that's a fan. That, or a guy that was a fan. Yeah. Burnt called me and like, either the guys, either the writers really smart or he's actually a fucking idiot. Yeah. Who was like, look at that, they don't even know how to say his name, you know? Yeah, you take it personally. Ryan, I don't know if you know how this feels.

• 17:37Speaker 02

  It happens at the top of my head and everything gets warm. Yeah. And I go like, whoa, and it's a massive, like,

• 17:46Speaker 02

  I wouldn't say like an instant depression, but an instant anxiety of like, I'm gonna be thinking about this for half the day, at least this ruined half the day. And my daughter, who I think Georgia, who my oldest, who probably would have a lot in common with you, she reads books with her friends where her friend will read one side of the page and she reads the other side of the page and they sit next to each other. That's what a reader she is, okay? Creepiest thing, I'd rather walk in her fucking, with three girls, but so she goes, hey, and she breaks it down, she goes, the guy needed clicks for his article and you clicked it. Now granted, it's your name, but other people are gonna go, oh, Bert, oh, we ruined Christmas? Cause he took his shirt off? Also, he could be right in the sense that you may have ruined his Christmas. Like, he's not wrong, like, I try, I try to go like, maybe it did suck to that person.

• 18:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, and by the way, I think it sucked, it probably sucked to a lot of families who at nine in the morning saw a shirtless fat guy, you know, drinking whiskey and on a parking lot. But look, that was what I was hired to do. Yes. So I, I should detach from both of those. Yes. But instead I'm like, so I hear Georgia, the stoic. Yeah. Break it down. And then, and then my youngest daughter, Isla goes, Google his name. I went, what? She goes, Google his name, find out his Instagram, who he's friends with. Yeah. And I went, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's do that. And then she's like, yeah, you know what? I guarantee you, he knows you and he has friends that, and then I'm like, yeah. And then I go, that's not what a stoic, like George Washington to me, it wouldn't be like, how do I get Louis the fucking 13th number? You know?

• 19:21Ryan Holiday?

  It's funny in the show, your two kids have kind of an angel devil relation, like one's whispering, uh, let's rein it in and the other is egging you on.

• 19:30Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 19:31Ryan Holiday?

  Which is, which is very funny. So, okay, I think a couple of things here. So number one, we'd like to think that people just naturally are this or that, right? And if that was the case, if George Washington just never got upset, or Mark Schrillis never got upset, they just, people said shit about him and they just didn't care. That's, then that's kind of like being tall, right? Like it, you don't get any credit for it. If you just, if it's not work, you don't get any credit for it, right? Like,

• 19:55Speaker 02

  Ooh, ooh, ooh. Give me a second with that thought. You've said some things, you've said some quotes that are like badass. So yeah, if, if it really doesn't affect you,

• 20:07Speaker 02

  you don't get credit for it. Like if someone yells to me, get out of that car, you black bastard. And I'm like, that's not accurate.

• 20:14Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, it's not gonna bother you, cuz it's not, it's not, it's so wildly inaccurate. That has nothing to do with you. So like, that is it really, actually, George Washington's a good example. It's funny that you brought him up. I was interviewing Ron Chernow, who wrote a famous biography of, of Washington, but he also, he also wrote Hamilton. But he, he was saying that what's interesting about Washington is that Washington actually, for the people that knew him, had like a fiery temper. He was actually like, there's a famous story about Washington. Uh, one, one guy, I think it's Gouverneur Morris, Betts, another guy. He goes, I'm gonna walk up to George Washington, slap him on the back and say, hey, George, how's it going? And, um, so he does this and Washington gives him like such a death stare

• 20:58Ryan Holiday?

  that the guy's like, I, like, he was like, I will never call him anything other than his excellency ever again. He's like right beneath the surface, a little bit fragile, a little bit sensitive, got a little bit of an ego. And so it's not that it's an act, it's that he's really having to work for it. Like he, he is sensitive, he does get upset, he does lose his temper, he does worry about things. But he, he understands, as I think you're saying in your examples, that, that that doesn't really work. Like, that's not good. That, that's what gets you into trouble. Like, you can be the president of the United States and just fly off the handle. Like, we're seeing the effects of what happened when that happens now. It gets you into trouble, right? It's not, and it's, and it's.

• 21:39Speaker 02

  So you're saying Donald Trump is not a stoic?

• 21:43Speaker 02

  She's fat. What can I say? She's a pig. Oh, my God. So like, we'll go get. Oh, that's a great. Yeah.

• 21:48Ryan Holiday?

  So the he realizes that to do this job, he has to work actively to not be that way. So I think I think everyone is struggling with it. And honestly, like most things, it might look easy. But like beneath the surface, the person's really working at it. And so I just, we should understand that Stoicism as a philosophy is a thing you are aspiring to be. And you're working on and you're getting better. Like, I don't, I don't think I'm perfect at any of this stuff. Compared to who I was when I was 20, I'm way further down the road, but I'm not anywhere near where I would like to be. And I, I read an article yesterday. I got a Google alert. I don't know how I saw it. And I was like, oh, it's like from the headline, it seemed positive.

• 22:30Ryan Holiday?

  And I was like, sweet. I could use a little pick me up right now.

• 22:35Speaker 02

  That's the worst.

• 22:36Ryan Holiday?

  And I read it and it just is getting worse and worse and worse. And I was like, so it was like, first off, I have to do what you're talking about, which is like, you know, try to think about where this person's coming from and why it doesn't matter. And then I have to go, okay, but like, there's a reason these Google alerts go to the email address I don't check. And why I tell myself not to click the thing like, it's more about like the process and the boundaries you put up to protect yourself from your worst impulses, I think.

• 23:03Speaker 02

  I like that.

• 23:04Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 23:04Speaker 02

  Like I, I deleted Google News off my phone.

• 23:09Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 23:09Speaker 02

  Because I, it was, it was just something I scrolled.

• 23:12Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 23:12Speaker 02

  And then I saw like, I like, I don't enjoy seeing negative articles about my friends.

• 23:17Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 23:18Speaker 02

  But some comics love it.

• 23:19Ryan Holiday?

  That's true.

• 23:19Speaker 02

  They love it. I have a friend who is so obsessed with the negative, the negative videos that other people put out about us.

• 23:30Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 23:30Speaker 02

  That I wonder if he's my friend.

• 23:32Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 23:33Speaker 02

  Cause he likes them so much.

• 23:35Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 23:35Speaker 02

  And then he told me he contacted one of the guys who made one about me.

• 23:40Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 23:40Speaker 02

  And I was just like, Wow, I would never do that to you. I would never like, like I don't, I'm not that guy. I'm not.

• 23:47Ryan Holiday?

  My social media accounts are on my wife's phone. So like I have to be like, hey, can I borrow your phone? Cause otherwise I'll just check them a lot. And I, it's like, I'm never, when I do, I'm like so glad, I'm not never glad that I spent 20 minutes on Instagram. Every once in a while I'll need to message someone or, you know, there'll be a thing that I wanted to look at or whatever. And then sometimes, you know, you can't sleep. It's fun to scroll or whatever, but I, I'm like, if it's on my phone, I'll do it way more than is healthy.

• 24:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:14Ryan Holiday?

  But if it, if it's, there's like just one step removed, then it's a, I'm a little, I'm a little protected from myself.

• 24:21Speaker 02

  I caught myself today. I was on Instagram and I was scrolling and then, and then it got me into threads or whatever. And it was something about, something about, I don't know. So it was something that was innocuous. And as I'm scrolling threads, I see my picture come up and immediately, and what I do, what I'll do sometimes I'll, I'll scroll without glasses on.

• 24:41Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 24:41Speaker 02

  Readers so that I can't read it.

• 24:42Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 24:43Speaker 02

  But I see my picture and I immediately go to this defense mechanism. Like get out of here, get out of here.

• 24:47Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:48Speaker 02

  And it was a positive review. And then I was like, that's so tricky. We go, I want to read it.

• 24:54Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 24:54Speaker 02

  Then part of me goes, but if I read that and give it weight, I have to give as much weight to the negative one.

• 25:00Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. It's funny. I think Hemingway was talking to Fitz.

• 25:02Speaker 02

  Hold on, stop right there. I have a great question then.

• 25:04Ryan Holiday?

  Okay.

• 25:04Speaker 02

  For real.

• 25:05Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 25:05Speaker 02

  For real.

• 25:06Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 25:06Speaker 02

  Do you think Ernest Hemingway would have been a better writer if he had gotten more sleep?

• 25:12Ryan Holiday?

  Probably.

• 25:13Speaker 02

  But doesn't that get to the id of the, and I'm using the word id not knowing what it means, but doesn't that get to the id of the artist?

• 25:22Ryan Holiday?

  Maybe a little bit. Uh, there, there's a book in the bookstore. I'm going to give it to you. So F. Scott Fitzgerald wrote this book called The Crack. He wrote a book called The Crackup about blowing up his life. It's the last thing he wrote.

• 25:33Ryan Holiday?

  And you're, you're watching one of the most talented people in the world squander their talent, drinking.

• 25:41Speaker 02

  I've watched, I've watched, I've watched people squander their talent.

• 25:45Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 25:46Speaker 02

  And I've watched myself squander my talent.

• 25:47Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 25:48Speaker 02

  Like I've, I've, it's funny when, as you're squandering things, you don't realize. You don't realize what you look like from the outside.

• 25:55Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 25:56Speaker 02

  You like, like, I remember a point, everyone was calling me going, we're worried about you. And I was like, and I was just working so hard. It's, it's one of the things you talk about in the book that I've been listening to over and over again, is that to pull back a little bit is the Stoic way.

• 26:10Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 26:11Speaker 02

  To not overwork restraint.

• 26:12Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 26:13Speaker 02

  Is the Stoic way and, and you know, we, Tom and I haven't talked about this and we're not, we're not, we don't talk about this publicly at all, but you know, we've pulled back two bears.

• 26:22Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, yeah.

• 26:23Speaker 02

  Because.

• 26:23Ryan Holiday?

  You don't do it as much?

• 26:24Speaker 02

  We, we do it when we want to.

• 26:25Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 26:26Speaker 02

  Because what we were doing is, and by the way, we're not doing that for the fans. And we're also doing that, we're taking less money. We're not, we're saying to our ad sales team, don't sell on against us because we were doing it, partly we were doing it for the fans, but we were really doing it because we were on a schedule.

• 26:43Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 26:44Speaker 02

  And that wasn't the way the, the show ever started. And that wasn't conducive to us having a good time.

• 26:51Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 26:51Speaker 02

  And then when we said, when we're available, let's do it. We did two episodes and they were, we started giggling with each other again.

• 26:59Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 26:59Speaker 02

  And, and when, and when I heard you say that about that, that rear Admiral, or the one guy that was the fighter pilot in World War Two, and then he was like a bioengineer or something, or a doctor, and then, you know, and then he was the reason we were one, one, one more, one, two, or whatever. And he was like, oh, he was just burning it at both ends.

• 27:14Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 27:15Speaker 02

  When you burn to both ends, you're not serving anybody.

• 27:17Ryan Holiday?

  Yes. It weirdly takes almost more discipline to walk away. Like I used to listen to Marc Maron's podcast, which I loved. I know you had like a little tiff with him or whatever. I, I think.

• 27:25Speaker 02

  No, no, no.

• 27:26Ryan Holiday?

  But, but I think to walk away from something that like, not because you're like an athlete and you can't do it anymore, you got cut or whatever. It's like, nobody does that. Like, nobody just goes like, I'm good. Like, everyone talks about fuck you money. There's the line, and then nobody ever says fuck you. Like, because you always want more and it feels irresponsible not to keep going. But like, to be like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do less is like, actually a pretty, it's both a kind of a baller thing if you think about it, but also it takes like more discipline than staying on the grueling schedule.

• 27:58Speaker 02

  Well, the fear for me, I mean, I can only speak about me and I, just for anyone listening who's like, what? Happened with Mark and Burt. I'll just be very quick so that everyone's clear. Uh, Mark was talking shit about these arena comics who uh get drunk and don't do anything on stage and they suck. And it's just a money grab. And and by the way, I had Mark on the podcast. He wasn't talking about me, but it sounded a lot like he was. This is why it's bad to listen to what people are saying because you interpret it, you know? And then I was like, I don't get drunk on stage. Like, I know everyone thinks I'm hammered the whole time. I am a very responsible comic. I have been drunk on stage, yes. But if I'm doing an arena, I'm stone sober. I'll have a drink when I tell the machine. But what's crazy is the title was Mark Maron talks about Bert Kreischer. He never said my name.

• 28:40Speaker 02

  So that was the beef. And then it turns out he was talking about another comic. He called me. It was, but what, but that's neither here nor there. Walking away. Walking away. It's not about the money. It is about money. There is, there's a money aspect to it. But for the most part, it's like, am I letting down the fans? Am I? And I, and I know that by putting out a lesser product, and I have been doing that at times. Definitely on Two Bears, definitely on Burt Cast. I wouldn't say so much on Something's Burning for, for whatever reason. And definitely not in stand up. For whatever reason, I've always been very adamant. If I say something very funny in my podcast, I pull it out. So I use it in stand up. Stand up's always been a standalone thing for me. It's my, it's my real thing. I always go, let me just take an, it's like when you're too tired to take batting practice and you're no longer helping your swing. Yeah.

• 29:24Speaker 02

  You're just taking cuts and you're like, it's, I'm not learning. And I had to say to everyone, I'm working too hard.

• 29:33Speaker 02

  Tom and I had a conversation Christmas Eve about Two Bears and our schedules. I had a conversation with my team about Burt Cast. I was like, I can't just do it every week. I mean, I want to do it when I want to do it and when I'm excited to do it. Cause then, then it'll be good and then people will like it. But it is a thing about like, what if I get out of this? What if I get out of the rotation? What if I hop off the merry-go-round for one run? Yeah. Everyone's on the merry-go-round. They might be drunk. They uh, uh, they might be garbage. That all the, all the great podcasts, History Hyenas, Matt and Shane's secret podcast, Andrew Schultz, Joe Rogan, you. There's so many great podcasts out there. But if I, if I hop off the merry-go-round for one lap, are people going to remember to let me back on? What if there's not a horse available when it comes back around? Right. And so that's the risk you take from.

• 30:18Speaker 02

  Doing less.

• 30:19Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 30:20Speaker 02

  And you just gotta trust that they'll be there, I guess.

• 30:23Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, and having some idea of what enough is, the problem is that you always move that number.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 30:29Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 30:30Speaker 02

  I remember getting an offer for my enough, getting like, here's an offer. We were in our old house. Our old house was like seventeen hundred square feet. I'm not just, I'm saying how big it was. It was in a huge house.

• 30:40Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 30:40Speaker 02

  For two kids, me and my wife. And that was after a renovation. And by the way, we thought it was the fucking best house in the world.

• 30:47Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 30:47Speaker 02

  Still is, but I still have that house. And I remember getting my enough offer and I put it on the table for the girls. We're good.

• 30:56Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 30:56Speaker 02

  And then I blew through that money. I blew through that money and I was like, it's not enough. And then you're like, okay, it's not, it's only half. You don't see that it's half. And then you don't see that you're a lot of that's, you're already in debt. And then you're like, oh shit. So yeah, it's, it's tough. You always move that goalpost.

• 31:12Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. And walking away from money is scary. And then also walking away from attention is scary and being wanted is scary. It's all keeps you.

• 31:21Speaker 02

  Especially if you're me, like I'm a, I'm a FOMO guy.

• 31:23Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 31:24Speaker 02

  I was the kid that if a slumber party, if I woke up last at a slumber party, I would be angry. I would be hurt. I would be hurt that they didn't wake me up. Like the old let him sleep. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Wake me up when you start cooking. Like I want to be there for all of it. I want to see, that's my fear of death is just FOMO.

• 31:41Ryan Holiday?

  What's gonna happen after?

• 31:42Speaker 02

  No, know that I'm not gonna be there.

• 31:44Ryan Holiday?

  No, that's what I mean. Well, all this stuff are gonna miss out.

• 31:46Speaker 02

  Like I said to Tom one time, we were a little drunk and it was early in the morning and, and we were doing a signing and neither of us wanted to be there. It was like a big Poros signing. It was, we were been traveling like crazy and they made us a cocktail. And I'm talking loosely and he was talking about Kim Jong Un and Vladimir Putin. And he's like, these are the type of lunatics that'll just end the world. And I was like, I do that. Like if I could, like if I could, if I could just be like, I have cancer, I'm dying, but I can end the world. I'd end the world and be like, that's it. No one lives. I, that's it. He goes, what about your kids? I go, yeah, yeah. I want them to go with me. Don't, wouldn't, in that love? And he was like, I, by the way, the look on Tom's face was like.

• 32:24Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, you sound like a lunatic.

• 32:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course. But I think I am a little bit of a lunatic.

• 32:28Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 32:28Speaker 02

  I think you gotta be a little bit of a lunatic as an artist.

• 32:31Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. Well, that goes to the point. Like, if you weren't a lunatic and you were easily satisfied, you'd been satisfied and stopped. So there's kind of this fit, like, like a, a normal person wins a Super Bowl, and then it's like, fuck, I'm gonna go out on top. But like, you can't stop.

• 32:48Speaker 02

  Do you sit? Cause I think you, like, I was driving out here. I go, this makes sense. Like, everything starts tracking.

• 32:54Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 32:55Speaker 02

  Like, I had a hard time understanding who you were, cause I couldn't, couldn't wrap my head around all of it, right?

• 33:03Ryan Holiday?

  Huh.

• 33:03Speaker 02

  So like, I was like, Marcus Aurelius, like, why are we still talking about him, right? I was like, and he has a bookstore in Austin. It's not in Austin.

• 33:09Ryan Holiday?

  No, no, it's, we're outside of town.

• 33:10Speaker 02

  Okay, this makes so much more sense. As we're driving here, I went, okay, this, now I'm starting to get this person. But a guy with a bookstore in Austin is very different. There's a pretentiousness to that. There is like, uh, I'm the Austin guy. I'm the Austin smart guy. Cause Austin, Austin right now is this weird eclectic place where all the gurus are headed to kind of get your chakra and, and, you know, it's like the best drum circle guy lives here now, you know, and he's like, well, you know, that's what I mean. That's like Austin.

• 33:37Ryan Holiday?

  Do you know the best drum circle guy? Is that's a real thing or no?

• 33:40Speaker 02

  No, I did meet a wild drum circle guy in New York the other day.

• 33:42Ryan Holiday?

  Okay.

• 33:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that's why I said that.

• 33:45Ryan Holiday?

  Okay, okay.

• 33:46Speaker 02

  We did a commercial together.

• 33:47Ryan Holiday?

  Got it.

• 33:59Speaker 02

  So, but like, and then when I drove out here, I went, oh, this is different. This is the thing I used to fantasize about when I was on Travel Channel and my life was a little out of control and my, my dreams were attached to my future.

• 34:11Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 34:12Speaker 02

  I would fantasize about like, what if I just had like, uh, what if I lived in a regular town with regular people? And I had a regular job where my dreams. weren't technically attached to it. It was just what I love to do.

• 34:22Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 34:22Speaker 02

  Like, what if I loved building houses or building cabinets?

• 34:25Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 34:26Speaker 02

  And I loved the satisfaction of getting done. I'm like, that looks great. And I didn't go to bed going like thinking about my cabinets.

• 34:32Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 34:32Speaker 02

  And today, when I drove out here and I saw this bookstore, I went, oh, I actually understand you a little better. And I bet you actually sit in your bookstore at night sometimes and look around and go, I think I'm living the dream. Like, this is everything I like.

• 34:46Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, totally. I think it's really good not to be around people who do what you do, because then you can't compare yourself to them. Like, there's no jealousy, because I'm not seeing anybody else's house or anybody else's car. I'm not like, I'm not bumping into like my quote unquote peers going like, how did they get that?

• 35:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:04Ryan Holiday?

  I'm just kind of doing my own.

• 35:05Speaker 02

  That's the death of when that's the crazy thing in comedy is that I think people do compare themselves to the other people. And you know, everyone's your friend until you get successful.

• 35:14Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 35:14Speaker 02

  And then the second you get successful, it's like you you lose, you lose like, I'm gonna be aggressive on this, but I'd say you lose. In genuineness, probably sixty percent of your friends are just like, that especially like some successful ones are like, dude, fuck that guy.

• 35:31Ryan Holiday?

  Because you made it or whatever.

• 35:32Speaker 02

  Well, they didn't expect you to make. They were cool with you being a loser.

• 35:35Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 35:35Speaker 02

  They're good giving you a lot of people are good at giving advice. But the second you no longer need their advice, it was weird. That's the American thing. I mean, that was like why I was like, oh, he liked me when I was a loser. And the second I started doing arenas, I he didn't like me.

• 35:49Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 35:49Speaker 02

  And obviously, Mary never said that about me. That's what he said.

• 35:52Ryan Holiday?

  But it's easy for you to assume that because that's actually happened.

• 35:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, it's happened. It's happened to so many people. There are very few people that are happy for your success.

• 36:00Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 36:01Speaker 02

  It's like.

• 36:02Ryan Holiday?

  Because people think it's zero sum, that your success comes at the expense of their success.

• 36:06Speaker 02

  That you took their toy.

• 36:07Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 36:08Speaker 02

  And started playing with their toy.

• 36:09Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 36:09Speaker 02

  And then, you know, especially like, I was at the, I was at the very beginning, I think of the comedy boom, you know? And the comedy boom's still happening. It's just not at the the pace where it had happened when I started it with it was like, Tom is at the like the forefront of it. Joe's at the forefront. Bill Burr's at the forefront. There's like. Chappelle, they're at the forefront. I was on that second tier where I was just like, I was like riding their wake.

• 36:34Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 36:35Speaker 02

  And you'd go in and you're breaking ticket sales in like every venue, but it wasn't necessarily your, I mean, I'm saying I'm talented, but it wasn't that. It was so much that people were hot for comedy.

• 36:47Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 36:48Speaker 02

  And the pandemic had just ended.

• 36:49Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 36:49Speaker 02

  And ticket sales were wild. And they were like, I want to get out of the house. And I had been on tour all through the pandemic, like doing my outdoor, open air.

• 36:57Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 36:57Speaker 02

  Driving movie theater tour. And people like, oh, his materials, he's been working through the pandemic. This is going to be good.

• 37:02Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 37:03Speaker 02

  And then you, your record, and then your, your earnings come out and all of a sudden, dude, like the next day, fuck that guy. And you're like, whoa. And then you got, and you got like, I got, I remember I had like, you know, very like, like Rogan was on my team, like Rogan was excited for me. Anyone below me, now I say below me, but like just wasn't making that was all excited for me.

• 37:27Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 37:27Speaker 02

  Sebastian has always been cool. Tommy, obviously, you know, but then, but the list goes, gets pretty, pretty shallow, pretty quick.

• 37:33Ryan Holiday?

  I just found that like, that's not good for you either. Like the person who's being jealous or going like, well, why did they get that? And that's not good for you. And I found like, the more I'm like out of the scene.

• 37:44Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 37:44Ryan Holiday?

  Like a friend of mine gave me really good advice. He said, work, family, scene, pick two.

• 37:50Speaker 02

  Oh, it's work, family.

• 37:51Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, of course. But so if you pick those, then you don't know what's happening in the scene. And then actually you do better work. And you're not like, you're not like, well, why am I not getting invited to this? They seem like they're having, I'm just disconnected from the scene. And I think I found that's healthier for me, not like, cause I'd be out partying, but I'm just not like, I don't know what other people are making or driving. I don't, I don't know what deals other people are getting or sales. Like it's just, it's just better to just be doing your own thing and running your own race.

• 38:19Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. I always have, I have weird analogies I always look for, like of the two you're talking about. I call people channel markers, like, uh, as I grew up in Florida, and so there was a lot of like, when you're in the middle of the fucking, when you're heading out to sea.

• 38:32Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 38:32Speaker 02

  You're looking for the channel markers or head in the right direction. And I always looked for channel markers in life, like Rogan's always been a channel marker. Whatever he's doing. That is the right way you're going. You should go that direction. You know, Burr has always been a channel marker for me because he's always been on the more of the creative side. Not saying Joe's not creative, but he's very podcasting. Joe's very much, but Bill's always been like movies, TVs, scripted. You know, always kind of like, and his, the way Burr approaches the stand up is brilliant.

• 38:58Ryan Holiday?

  There's a craft element to it.

• 39:00Speaker 02

  I just bought a book called Seven Basic Story Plots or whatever. Bought a book, let me rephrase that. I got the audiobook for $29. But, uh, and the other one is I, I heard what someone say, say one time, something about like, if, if you're following the path in the woods, then you know that people have already gone that way.

• 39:18Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 39:19Speaker 02

  And so I've always thought, well, the second you can't see the path anymore, the second it gets a little scary and you're, and you get lost, that's the best path to take in the woods because you're going in your own direction.

• 39:29Ryan Holiday?

  Actually, it's funny. There's a passage in Seneca where he's talking about, he's like, you gotta, this is in a mix of metaphors a little bit, but I wonder what you think about it. So he says, like happiness is having a sense of the path that you're on. And he says, not being distracted by the paths that crisscross yours. And he says, especially not following the footsteps of people who are lost.

• 39:52Speaker 02

  All right. Okay. I like.

• 39:53Ryan Holiday?

  You like that?

• 39:54Speaker 02

  I like that. Seneca, I always thought he was just a different type of Toyota, but he's, he's fucking great. Who's Seneca?

• 40:00Ryan Holiday?

  Seneca is, so Mark Stroud is emperor, Epictetus is a slave. Seneca is right there in the middle. He's like a Roman senator. He's a playwright. He's a famous guy. And then he ends up, he has like the world's worst job. He is Nero's philosophy teacher. I don't know if you know anything about Nero, but Nero's.

• 40:18Speaker 02

  Do I know anything about Nero? Are you kidding me? So Nero never, never danced while, while Rome burned to the ground. He didn't play the fiddle.

• 40:26Ryan Holiday?

  Play the fiddle.

• 40:27Speaker 02

  He didn't play the fiddle.

• 40:28Ryan Holiday?

  He didn't do anything when it burnt.

• 40:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:30Ryan Holiday?

  He was the worst.

• 40:31Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no. So hang on. I get really hung up on Nero.

• 40:33Ryan Holiday?

  Okay.

• 40:34Speaker 02

  So here's what happened. Okay.

• 40:35Ryan Holiday?

  I did not think this was going to go in this direction.

• 40:37Speaker 02

  So Nero was a pretty good fucking emperor. Hang on.

• 40:41Ryan Holiday?

  Okay.

• 40:41Speaker 02

  Let me just, okay.

• 40:42Ryan Holiday?

  Give me, give me your take.

• 40:43Speaker 02

  Okay. So he was a pretty good emperor and he lasted for a while.

• 40:45Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 40:45Speaker 02

  And the guy that came up next, he didn't really do anything and he kind of disappeared. He was like the Jimmy Carter of emperors, right? The next guy was the Gerald Ford of emperors. And then the third guy, Ronald Reagan was like, dude, we gotta let them forget about fucking Nero. So I can carve my own path. So he goes, yo, let's retrofit. The Nero fiddle while Rome burned so that we can remember him as a piece of shit. And that's what they were trying to do to George Bush. No, I'm kidding. But like, but that's what they did to Nero so that this guy could, because I listen, I listen to a lot of stuff. But I barely taken.

• 41:17Ryan Holiday?

  It seemed like you took a lot in.

• 41:18Speaker 02

  And so that's what I heard about Nero.

• 41:20Ryan Holiday?

  Okay, so basically Seneca is in exile. He's, the Emperor Claudius is deranged and he thinks that Seneca is having an affair with his sister. And so he banishes Seneca. Seneca gets sent into exile to the island of Corsica, which is off the coast of Italy. It's where Napoleon's from.

• 41:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:37Ryan Holiday?

  So he's stuck in this rock in the middle of the ocean. He hates it. And he finally, he gets a, a letter, you can come back to Rome. Uh, it's from this woman, if you tutor my son. And that, her son is Nero. So he gets called back in, in exchange for, for tutoring this young kid who's almost certainly going to become the emperor one day. And, and Nero's smart, Nero's promising, he's, he seems like a good kid. Seneca teaches him everything he knows and then Nero does become emperor. And for the first five years, he listens to Seneca and he has another military advisor named Burrus who he listens to. And so the first five years of Nero are great. They're actually known as the Quinquenum Neronus, or the five golden years of Nero.

• 42:20Ryan Holiday?

  But what happens is, you know, they say absolute power corrupts absolutely. The problem is Nero desperately wanted to be liked and he desperately wanted to be liked as both an athlete and an artist. That like, so you know, it's funny.

• 42:33Speaker 02

  He sounds like Vladimir Putin.

• 42:35Ryan Holiday?

  Yes, like people, it's funny, like people get the thing, you think that would be enough, but everyone wants, has their secret fantasy of what they want to be. So Nero like.

• 42:42Speaker 02

  You're talking to the guy that's on testosterone and bench 325 pounds. Yeah, keep going.

• 42:46Ryan Holiday?

  He fixes the Olympics so he can win as a chariot racer. He, uh, he forces people to listen to his poetry. He's delusional. He's not that good, but that's what he really wants to be known for. So he kind of starts to spin off the planet. And then he gets really paranoid that people are plotting against him, right? Absolute power corrupts absolutely. At one point, Seneca. Tells him, he goes, you know, it's, it's impossible for you to, to kill literally all of your successors. The point being, eventually you'll die and someone will take your place. Like you can't kill everyone. I need a Seneca in my life. And at one point, he kills, he assassinates his own mother. He turns against his mother. He sends her out on this crew, on this boat ride, and he has her killed. I know about that. So, so he, he loses his mind.

• 43:29Ryan Holiday?

  He, he really is shitty and he loses his mind. And eventually Seneca, who becomes very rich, working for Nero, finally goes, dude, I've had enough, I gotta get out of here. And Nero goes, bro, that's, that's not how this works. And so he, he sends Seneca into exile. Eventually he kills Seneca, kills everyone. There's a, there's a joke, he's, um, he, uh, has one of his generals, uh, killed and, um, the general's standing on the edge of his grave right before they kill him. And he looks down and he goes, even this isn't up to code. Like, he's like Nero sucks even at this. So he, he sucks. He, he's good at first, spins off the planet, sucks. And then, this is where the story gets crazy. When the walls close in on him, Nero realizes he has to kill himself, but he's too much of a coward to do it.

• 44:13Ryan Holiday?

  So he calls one of his advisors to do it. He botches it. He sticks the knife in, he kind of screws it up, Nero does. He calls one of his advisors and his advisor has to finish the job. And that advisor is the owner of Epictetus. So Epictetus is watching all of this happen. He's watching not just Nero spin off the planet, but he is watching Seneca, like degrade himself by being associate, like Seneca writes all this great stuff about what it means to be a stoic, what it means to be a good person, and then has a day job working for a monster. It's a fucking fascinating, like, uh, twisted world.

• 44:57Ryan Holiday?

  Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it and I'll see you next episode.