Alan Cumming: “I allow people to be abusive!” How to build self-worth and say no

Alan Cumming's dad told him he was worthless, and his mum told him he was precious. Figuring out how he feels about himself has been a life’s work. In this chat with Fearne, Alan’s open about the ways he’s allowed people to treat him badly, and how he’s learnt to get comfortable with confrontation and setting boundaries. He also explains why the rage in the script of his new TV show triggered painful childhood memories. Fearne and Alan share their experiences of oscillating between relentless, excited creativity (constantly manifesting bigger and better jobs) and a desire to rest (Alan’s fantasies about becoming a tradwife...!) Plus, what really happens on the Traitors’ set and how on earth does Alan manage to keep that poker face all the time? Alan will be creatively involved in four different productions at the Pitlochry Festival Theatre this year, and you can watch Alan in Channel 4’s new show Tip Toe from May 31st. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Nicole LePera https://pod.fo/e/40cd32 Shauna Tiffany https://pod.fo/e/40f973 Zayn https://pod.fo/e/23b207 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, a massive welcome back to Happy Place with me Fern Cotton. This is the show that looks back in order to move forward. Today, I'm chatting to Alan Cumming.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  Truly, my dad told me I was worthless and my mum told me I was precious. And of course, you want to believe your mum more. I am a strong person and I function very well for someone who has had an abusive childhood, I think. But it's still with me. Sometimes I can get triggered by certain personalities. I will allow people to be, well, abusive. I had those things happen to me that I am acknowledging were really damaging and could have ended it for me. But I persevered because I believed in myself, I think.

• 0:46Fearne Cotton?

  Do you know what? This was one of those chats that me and the Happy Place team were so buzzed about. We're all huge Alan fans. And weirdly, we recorded this one in the evening. We very rarely do that. We're all early birds at Happy Place. We're morning people. So we may bash out three Happy Place podcast episodes in a day, but we'll usually start at like nine. This one, I think we started recording at like six or seven in the evening. Really weird for me, but sort of lovely. It was almost like we were on a night out with Alan Cumming. And it had a different feel to it for me, certainly. Like we were having like a late night. It wasn't late night, but for me it was cheeky chat. And he had, he brought such good energy to the studio in a fun, like little behind the scenes gossipy way.

• 1:32Fearne Cotton?

  In again, a really lovely, down to earth way. He was just so chilled, so lovely, turned up with one person, just so beautifully normal. But hung around to have a little chat afterwards. We were gossiping about all sorts of things. And then me and the Happy Place team who work on the podcast went out for a little cheeky drink after because we were in such great spirits. What was the weird drink that I had, Mills? I had some like weird, did it have rhubarb in it? Or sage or something really off the beaten track? Anyway, I had some super weird cocktail that got me pissed in like one drink. I was like hammered in, with one sip of this drink. I blame Alan. It's all Alan's fault.

• 2:17Fearne Cotton?

  Now, this chat with Alan, as I'm sure you can imagine, was a riot. This is a man with a lot of hilarious stories. He has lived a life. But he was also really gracious in sharing the stories that he tells himself about himself. A feeling of worthlessness, which you might be surprised to hear, is something that comes up a lot in his personal life. And he also talked about the ways that his new Channel 4 series, Tiptoe, brought up some bloody raw memories from his own past. It's written by Russell T Davies, so it is obviously particularly gritty.

• 2:57Speaker 02

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithgemini. That's goo.gle/workspacewithgemini.

• 3:30Speaker 03

  The youth mental health crisis is growing and social media is a major driver. Kids are spending up to nine hours a day on screens, often unsupervised, and studies show a direct link to anxiety, depression and even suicidal thoughts. That's where Gab comes in. Gab offers safer phones and watches for kids with no social media, tailored to every age, offering the right tech at the right time, or tech in steps. From GPS tracking enabled watches for younger kids to phones with parent enabled apps for teens, each device allows kids to more safely grow their independence. Visit gab.com/getgab and use code GETGAB for an exclusive offer.

• 4:11Speaker 03

  That's G A B B dot com forward slash get gab. Gab, tech in steps. Independence for them, peace of mind for parents.

• 4:21Speaker 04

  Network freedom and flexibility, that's what you want in a healthcare plan. With a Humana Medicare Advantage PPO plan, you can see any doctor in the country who accepts Medicare, including specialists. No referrals, no kidding. Learn more at gethumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to build Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organisation with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 4:54Fearne Cotton?

  All right, let's do it. Here's the show.

• 5:18Fearne Cotton?

  Alan Yu, legend coming. How are you?

• 5:21Speaker 01

  Pretty good. A little jet, a little, well, a little exhausted, but I'm, I'm, I'm not, I mean, I'm, I'm here for you.

• 5:27Fearne Cotton?

  I know you are. You're, you're a true pro.

• 5:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, true pro.

• 5:31Fearne Cotton?

  You absolutely are.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  I love a chat, but I'm, I'm, I'm in my general demeanor of life right now. I've had a crazy week.

• 5:37Fearne Cotton?

  You've been in how many continents in the last two days?

• 5:40Speaker 01

  Well, I was, I was in New York last night. And the night before that, I was in Los Angeles. And two days before that, I was in New York. And two days before that, I was in Aberdeen.

• 5:50Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, it's, you're in one of those states where time is meaningless. Like, what is it even, what is it?

• 5:55Speaker 01

  I know. And it's also like, I've, I had a 10 minute nap that was brilliant.

• 5:59Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, did that work? If I have a nap, I usually feel worse, like groggy.

• 6:03Speaker 01

  I, I can, like, I, I'm very good at napping. And I always, I'm always good. But I can also just think, okay, I thought I was going to have a nap for half an hour. I've only got 10 minutes. I'm going to make it really count.

• 6:13Fearne Cotton?

  And you can fall asleep that quickly? Wow, I'm so jealous.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  I can sleep, I always sleep on planes. I always sleep in cars. I sleep on floors and, you know, in dressing rooms and things like that. I just, I, I, I just have got, gosh, you've got, written a lot of books. There's, I, I knew you'd written this one because I saw you on.

• 6:31Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  All those ones over there.

• 6:33Fearne Cotton?

  I've written more than that even.

• 6:34Speaker 01

  How many have you written altogether?

• 6:35Fearne Cotton?

  Sixteen, Alan.

• 6:36Speaker 01

  Shut up.

• 6:38Fearne Cotton?

  I've got to keep busy. I can't sit around.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  No.

• 6:41Fearne Cotton?

  Like you.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  But, yeah, yes, hello.

• 6:42Fearne Cotton?

  You can't sit around. I mean, you are always, you've just, you know, said how much you've been travelling recently. You are always on the go, whether it's, it could be TV, it could be TV hosting, it could be film, it could be theatre, writing. You are prolific in all areas.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:58Fearne Cotton?

  Is that pure drive or is there restlessness?

• 7:02Speaker 01

  I think, I think it's a combination of things. I mean, I like being busy. I like, I like being eclectic. And I like not ever really overly dwelling on one thing. So I like the sort of lightness and the nimbleness of it and sort of floating through life. I do. The older I get, I sort of do think, oh, am I, you know, am I really? Who am I trying to? I don't know. Maybe I'm trying to prove too much or something. I sort of think that of, of late. Because, you know, it's like forty years since I've been working as a professional actor and person. But no, I, I just actually think I have a lot of, you know, I'm given a lot of opportunities to do things I really like.

• 7:43Speaker 01

  I maybe, I'm trying to do a little less than I have done or, you know, it's too mu- it's too much right now. But I really enjoy it.

• 7:51Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:52Fearne Cotton?

  And that's a gift, when you love what you're doing.

• 7:54Speaker 01

  Oh, my god. I, absolutely. I really, you know, it doesn't feel like, like, you, you, you, you forget, I think, that most people in the real world. Do jobs that they don't really like in order to get money to do what they like in their lives.

• 8:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 8:09Speaker 01

  And we do, we get paid to do the thing we really like.

• 8:12Fearne Cotton?

  So lucky.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  I know, I know. And it's, it's, it's, it's an incredible thing when you, when you have friends and you, they say things about like, oh, well, you know, I'm just doing this. So I, and you think, oh, god, I forgot. That's how, that's most people's experience.

• 8:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I know. We are extremely, extremely lucky. At what point do you think, as a youngster, did you have your heart set on, I think I'm going to enjoy that? Because you don't know. You could watch a film or a TV show or go to a theatre show and think, that's probably amazing. Of course, there's always going to be shit bits, unglamorous bits.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:41Fearne Cotton?

  But you had an inkling, that's for me.

• 8:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I saw, I think I sort of thought, it wasn't even actually the, you know, going to the theatre or going to seeing. I mean, I think I first liked. The feeling of it, it's more about, and I do still feel like that. I feel like it's the feeling I get and the, I like the sort of process of acting or, or, or performing or creating. That I really like. And, you know, there's been a big upturn for me in the last sort of couple of years in dealing with all the stuff because of the traitors and, you know, especially in this last week in America has been a lot. And I have been going to these big things, but I actually was thinking, gosh, you know, I, all that

• 9:25Speaker 01

  stuff. I sort of said this thing like, you know, I, a little piece of you dies. I love your soul dies every time you take a selfie and things like, things like that. Because I had a T-shirt once, it was really good. It said, even though you like getting a photo taken with a celebrity, celebrities don't necessarily like getting a photo taken with you. A bit brutal. Sorry. Because I feel like all the detritus of it, sometimes, and especially when you're promoting things, as I am right now, it, that take, that's, that becomes your job. And that's not really why I, what I wanted to do when I first started. I didn't, obviously you don't know about, you don't know about all that stuff.

• 10:00Fearne Cotton?

  And that's more to do with fame, right, than the job?

• 10:03Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly.

• 10:03Fearne Cotton?

  And that's bullshit.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  And that's a totally different thing. When people say, people say, oh, well, that comes with the job. I say, well, no, actually, the job is this over here. And I didn't, you know, it wasn't when I was 20, I, I wasn't, you know, on the red carpet at the Time 100 list.

• 10:17Fearne Cotton?

  No. And I think fame meant something very different back then.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 10:20Fearne Cotton?

  When I started in the nineties, it was a very different thing. I don't think I understood what it was going into the industry. I, I kind of thought, oh, you, you might be known because you're on the TV, but it wasn't a job in itself, as I think it is today.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  Yes. Yes. It's such a, like more, like with the traitors, I, yeah, I spend more time promoting the traitors than I actually do shooting it.

• 10:41Fearne Cotton?

  Mad.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:42Fearne Cotton?

  Mad.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  And that's crazy.

• 10:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 10:46Speaker 01

  And, and also it's just sort of, anyway, I, I love, I love my job. I really do. And, and there's some things I like about the, I mean, I, I, you know, honestly, I really, I'm not bitching about, about, I mean, and I'm a wee bit, like, when I'm playing some things and people want to photo, and you think, I don't want, you know.

• 11:04Fearne Cotton?

  Or like you're in the loo or something.

• 11:06Speaker 01

  In the loo, or picking up your dog's poop. And just like, no, not now. Or, and, and I've got much better at just saying. I don't want to.

• 11:15Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  You know, nice to meet you.

• 11:17Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, that's absolutely okay.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  And also the thing, what's really good, I've learned if you say to someone, if I take a photo with you, everyone will see and I'll, my entire evening will be taking photos with everyone in this room and they go, totally get it.

• 11:29Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 11:30Speaker 01

  And I think it's really good to sort of just be honest with people and, and I'm always nice and kind and stuff like that, but sometimes you just think, I don't want to.

• 11:36Fearne Cotton?

  No.

• 11:37Speaker 01

  And I think that's fair enough. You don't have to. It's not, you know, sometimes people are like, oh, come on. But I actually, I don't know, that, that, that part of it is, you know, if it's a neat, an event and it's a premiere or something, absolutely, that's what you're there for.

• 11:51Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  In your life, in your real life. And I suppose that's why, you know, the older I've got, the more I've got, I've sought out sort of places away from it all.

• 12:01Fearne Cotton?

  Yes, that is so important.

• 12:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:03Fearne Cotton?

  It's so important. You can love your job, you can do it as much as you want, as long as there is, hasn't even got to be balanced, I don't think. I think balance is usually unrealistic. I've definitely not got any balance in my life. It's sort of most of the time chaotic with work and kids and I've chosen that.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:18Fearne Cotton?

  But if you can have tiny moments, for me, that is usually solitude. I love being on my own.

• 12:24Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 12:24Fearne Cotton?

  What's, you like solitude?

• 12:26Speaker 01

  Having, just having a bath. Do you know what I mean?

• 12:29Fearne Cotton?

  I love having a bath.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  Or, and I've got this right now, I have a little fan, I mean, so I've got this new, well, it's not new, but we had a renovations done on this house and I've got, I feel like, you know, if you're lucky enough to have, be able to have a house that you can make it the way you want to. And for me, I've realised what that is, is a sanctuary away from everything. And I've got this house in Scotland where it's a little, there's a little pond, I call it a loch, it's not really a loch. It's got an island. I call it.

• 12:55Fearne Cotton?

  Is there a word for a mini loch?

• 12:56Speaker 01

  A lochan.

• 12:57Fearne Cotton?

  A lochan?

• 12:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lochan. Little, and I've got a sauna, I've got, I put a sauna on the banks of it and a little jetty thing. So you go in the sauna and you jump in.

• 13:05Fearne Cotton?

  Love that.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  To the thing, you're like.

• 13:07Fearne Cotton?

  I love that shit.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  That, like that, doesn't take long, but that to me is like, that's my thing. I, I made it and I thought about it. That's what I wanted to do and I've done it and I love it. My new thing, that is my sort of, is my sort of trad wife fantasy that I want to, I've got an agar and I want to make gluten free scones.

• 13:25Fearne Cotton?

  So niche.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Yes. I really think about these things.

• 13:29Fearne Cotton?

  Argas are tricky.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  Are they?

• 13:31Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I had one many, many years ago. I bought a tiny cottage and it happened to have an agar in it. I must have been twenty four, I barely cooked, maybe I was younger than that. And it's always at the same temperature. So you have to obviously learn, it's a whole new way of cooking.

• 13:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:46Fearne Cotton?

  And there's maybe, is there three chambers? It was confusing.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  What's funny is that we, before the renovations, there was an oil one. And now we've got an electric, a new electric one.

• 13:57Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, that's basically an oven.

• 13:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's gonna be, well, it's got those things that go up like that.

• 14:01Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, love those.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  I love that. So I want my sort of trad wife, uh, at home, you know. And I like this thing of like, I'm gonna be leaning against the little thing where the towel rails is warming your bum.

• 14:12Fearne Cotton?

  Warming your bum after a big walk or after you've jumped in the locket.

• 14:16Speaker 01

  In Lok Lala.

• 14:17Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, so dreamy.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  So I really, I, I, I absolutely, I, my life is completely the same in terms of it's not balanced. But I do have like little things that I feel, at least if I can do that.

• 14:29Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 14:30Speaker 01

  You know.

• 14:30Fearne Cotton?

  Cause when I, I heard you on Lulu's podcast, maybe a few years ago now. And she asked you if you were a workaholic and it's a really interesting question because, you know, perhaps I could say that I am, you could say that you are. But actually, I think when I look at how prolific you've been, how, how diverse your career is. It seems more so that you just need to create. It's something, a desire within you that's, it's not like I just must fill my diary. It's like you've gotta be creating, that's part of who you are.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's true. And I, and I always think if you're, if you're a, an addict, it means that you wake up in the morning, you have to do that thing, or you can't do without the thing. I can do, I can do without, like, I, I love, like, the year with Covid was my favorite year of my life. Not working.

• 15:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  And I just loved it.

• 15:21Fearne Cotton?

  Do you know what I loved?

• 15:22Speaker 01

  What?

• 15:22Fearne Cotton?

  Not getting invited anywhere.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:24Fearne Cotton?

  I loved it. I didn't have to think of an excuse.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  Went to, yeah, it was so good. I was like, oh my God, I, I forgot how much I don't like these things.

• 15:31Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, awful.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  But just, yeah, like not having that. So I, it's not that I, I didn't miss any of that. When that year, but I do feel it is about being creative. Like, why I laugh on you said about being creative is that at my theatre that I run, you know, at Lockshee Festival Theatre, I'm the artistic director there. One of the people, our finance guy, Dougie, said to me, Alan, you have too many ideas. And I was like, oh, sorry. And I thought, wait, why am I saying sorry? But I do, I sort of feel, sometimes I feel like I wish I didn't have so many ideas. Because I'm also quite strong willed and I'm good at manifesting things. And so sometimes, and so the other day, this is so, this is so weird. Yesterday, was it yesterday or the day before, I met Dakota Fanning

• 16:16Speaker 01

  at this thing in LA and I was talking to her about Budapest and I said, oh, I love Budapest. I made a film there years ago and she's, she's making a film there. And I, I remember thinking, oh, I'll, I'll manifest that I want to do another film in Budapest so I can go there. And then I thought, oh no, don't stop it right now. Because that will happen and you want to be making scones.

• 16:35Fearne Cotton?

  Why do you think you're particularly good at it? Because I think over the years, I've been pretty good at that. I'm just a random kid from the suburbs and then I ended up doing this extraordinary job because I was so dead set on that idea. There was no other option. I'm not quite sure what the other bits of the alchemy are that are necessarily needed. I think, you know, the whole manifesting thing can be talked about in a way that feels like, oh, I'm failing at manifesting, I'm failing at life.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 17:02Fearne Cotton?

  I think if you are strong, it might be as simple as if you are that strong willed and your vision is that clear and you're determined to put the work in, which is the other bit that's

• 17:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 17:12Fearne Cotton?

  often missing from the convo.

• 17:14Speaker 01

  And it's also not crazy things you're, you know, by manifesting, I want to go to Budapest. That's not.

• 17:19Fearne Cotton?

  No, you're not saying I want to become a premier footballer.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  Right, yeah. But I've done things like that.

• 17:24Fearne Cotton?

  You might be good at football, I've just assumed that. You're not, okay.

• 17:27Speaker 01

  But I was just thinking a few years ago, I did a thing, I said, I really want to do. Oh, I remember when I, I, I, I, the last time I did cabaret, I've done that musical cabaret a few times. And I did it on Broadway and I was 50 and I finished and I remember thinking, whoa, this is, I'll never be asked to dance like this. I'll never, this is the end of something. And I'll never be, I'll never use my body like this for my work again. And I thought, I have still got one more in me or, and I thought, I'll, I'll, I'll do something. I'll do a show that's sort of, I'll dance in a musical or something, you know, blah, blah, blah. What happened was, and I sort of was thinking, what can I do? I ended up doing a one man dance theatre piece about Robert Burns that nearly killed me. And so that's, that's the dangers of manifestation.

• 18:12Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah. You have the idea and also you, you put it into action as quickly as possible. I think if you have the idea and you sort of dilly dally too much, that's where it floats off. You've got to kind of get into it straight away. But seemingly, there's something within your personality, your makeup, whatever you've inherited from your ancestors that has enabled you to think big, dream big, and have the discipline to do it. Because I've heard, when you, for instance, did your speech when your Walk of Fame star in Hollywood was placed down, you mentioned a teacher who had said some pretty shitty things about you, like you wouldn't amount to anything, you wouldn't work in the arts or whatever.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  Professional actor, yeah.

• 18:55Fearne Cotton?

  And that drove you further. I think for some people, that would stop you in your tracks, like, oh god, yeah, I am, what am I thinking? I'm, you know, but your mindset is often to go, well, I'm gonna prove you wrong.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  Yes, but I still feel that he, I still feel I want to speak out and say how wrong that is because I, by whatever fluke or, or yeah, or act of will, didn't, you know, I'm a successful actor. I also feel there would be a lot of other people who would be squashed by that and.

• 19:29Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I think most would.

• 19:30Speaker 01

  And I was damaged by that, very much so, for quite a few years. And then, but you know, I also realised that it's also connected to my father, that I feel that I had a, in the same way that he told me I was not able to do something, I was not, I was sort of worthless in this area, this teacher. My father told me that as well. And so I feel like from a very early age, I had to make up my own mind about things because I could see that things weren't right. Or there was one parent telling you you were terrible and nothing, and one parent telling you you were great. So you know they can't be both right. So I feel in my life, I've got two things. One, I'm suspicious of people who are extreme and they're putting me down.

• 20:14Speaker 01

  And two, I let them do it for quite a while longer than I should before I get my shit together. That's the sort of legacy of it. But I do feel it's. When I, that's why I spoke. I've always wanted to talk about that, actually, about the teacher. And I didn't say who they were or anything. That's not what interests me. But it's about the fact that I, I had those things happen to me that I am acknowledging were really damaging and could have ended it for me. But I, yeah, I persevered because I believed in myself, I think.

• 20:44Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, well, because when we're young, our brains are still developing. So of course, you're so sponge-like, taking on every bit of criticism and then forming an opinion of who you are as a person, which I think we probably keep on figuring out until the day we die.

• 20:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:58Fearne Cotton?

  But when you're young, you know, you're so susceptible to that kind of critique. And I think, you know, you've obviously talked a lot about your dad growing up. And, and when you're a tiny kid, especially sort of zero to seven, where that imprint on a young kid can be lifelong.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:13Fearne Cotton?

  It is remarkable that you've managed to override that. Because I think, again, many people, and I've sat here and interviewed lots of people, or even I can look at my own life, or people that I've interviewed in other areas, are completely screwed from, you know, the moment they go out into the big wide world to find out how they fit into it. They're blocked because they've been told, you're a piece of shit, you're worthless, you won't amount to anything. I think it takes, again, like a whole recipe of, of strength and courage, resilience and determination to override that sort of childhood.

• 21:47Speaker 01

  I think it does. And, and, but also, I think it is very, for me, it was, I realise now my mum being this, you know, being the polar opposite, telling me the polar opposite. I mean, truly, my dad told me I was worthless and my mum told me I was precious. And of course, you want to believe your mum.

• 22:04Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 22:05Speaker 01

  I am a strong person and I have overcome, I function very well for someone who has had an abusive childhood, I think. But it's still with me. It's still, that's what.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  I wrote a book, you know, about it. And then I wrote another book, kind of about the fact I was, well, it was another book, but also about the fact that it's, I didn't want people to think that because I had suddenly revealed all this stuff about myself, that it was all kind of tied up. It was very American.

• 22:36Fearne Cotton?

  All done.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, fine. Oh, you overcame it. Yeah. It's not, I have, I, I, it's with me all the time. And, and I, as I say, I let, I allow that kind of behavior. I realize even to this day, I allow people to behave towards me. Certain, a certain type of man. Yeah, probably. Who is sort of telling me that is kind of maybe slightly, you know, gaslighting me or something or undermining me. It doesn't happen that often, but when it does, I'm, I re, I see, this is a new thing I've realized. I let, I let it go on too long because I'm sort of thinking, oh, they must be right. I can't, they can't, you know, I give them too much.

• 23:17Fearne Cotton?

  And it's familiar. I think a lot of that.

• 23:19Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 23:20Fearne Cotton?

  We're like, oh, I know this. I know how, I know this dance.

• 23:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm used to this. Yeah. So, so I, but also just even things like, yeah, there's, well, there's just a lot of, you know, there's many things about anger and violence. Like I, this new Russell T Davies show.

• 23:36Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  That I've done was very difficult because it's, it's about the way that violence and, and, and hatred is normalized. And it was so, it was very triggering.

• 23:48Fearne Cotton?

  God, I bet it was.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  In many ways. But I, it was also why I wanted to do it, you know?

• 23:56Speaker 02

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of the best one yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the world. And more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at go.o.gle/workspacewithgemini. That's go.o.gle/workspacewithgemini.

• 24:29Speaker 03

  The youth mental health crisis is growing and social media is a major driver. Kids are spending up to nine hours a day on screens, often unsupervised. And studies show a direct link to anxiety, depression, and even suicidal thoughts. That's where Gab comes in. Gab offers safer phones and watches for kids with no social media, tailored to every age, offering the right tech at the right time, or tech in steps. From GPS tracking-enabled watches for younger kids to phones with parent-enabled apps for teens, each device allows kids to more safely grow their independence. Visit gab.com/getgab and use code GETGAB for an exclusive offer. That's G A B B dot com forward slash get gab.

• 25:14Speaker 03

  Gab: Tech in Steps. Independence for them, peace of mind for parents.

• 25:20Speaker 04

  Network freedom and flexibility, that's what you want in a healthcare plan. With a Humana Medicare Advantage PPO plan, you can see any doctor in the country who accepts Medicare, including specialists. No referrals, no kidding. Learn more at gethumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to bill Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 25:50Speaker 05

  Help I Sexed My Boss is the podcast where manners meets mayhem. I'm William Hansen.

• 25:55Speaker 06

  I'm Jordan North.

• 25:56Speaker 05

  And together we take on the hilarious challenges of modern life.

• 25:59Speaker 06

  William's the arbiter of etiquette.

• 26:01Speaker 05

  And Jordan's the chaotic yin to my perfectly polished yang.

• 26:05Speaker 06

  So if you want laugh-out-loud stories and brutally honest moments, then you'll love Help I Sexed My Boss.

• 26:11Speaker 05

  Watch and listen every Tuesday and Friday.

• 26:13Speaker 06

  On YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.

• 26:16Speaker 05

  Just search Sexed.

• 26:17Speaker 06

  Be warned, it's a bit rude.

• 26:23Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, I watched the first two episodes and it is, like many of his shows, raw and gritty. And you've got so many different emotions wrapped up into the story, love and sorrow. And you've got your living next door to David Morrissey, who plays, I guess, like the other end of the spectrum in terms of worldviews, values, politics. And you're trying to work out how to live alongside each other. I mean, it is the opening scene of episode one, I was like, oh my god, it's shocking, shocking. I can't imagine how triggering most of it was. But there are some beautiful storylines in there. Like, I just watched episode two today, and I don't want to give too much away for people that haven't seen it, but I had a good old hearty cry at the lovely text exchange that

• 27:08Fearne Cotton?

  you were having with the young neighbour. It was so beautiful.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  So beautiful, yeah, I know, I could cry, I think about that. I saw it, you know, a couple of months ago, and I'm in it, you know, I'm, it's been quite familiar to me for the last couple of years. But even I was, I was so, I was on the edge of my seat, but also I was incredibly moved by those things, which is great because, you know, I was moved by them when Russell told me about the story and then when the scripts came in, I, so the fact that I moved when the finished product is so great, because often you aren't, you know, often doesn't quite land in the same way. But no, that's really beautiful. And also, I think it's so moving, his past relationship with his, his ex.

• 27:52Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  Is really lovely, with Charlie Condu plays my ex in it. And it's, it's, it's, yeah, it was, it was a lot, but a lot of dad stuff kind of came up during that time. And I just very monastic existence doing, yeah, a lot, I mean, I'm, I've been in therapy for, I don't know, 30 years, something like that.

• 28:14Fearne Cotton?

  Therapy is the best.

• 28:16Speaker 01

  I'm all for it. I'm, I mean, it's so incredibly helpful to me. And just as, just, you know, as a, as a checking in thing, not, sometimes there's obviously things that, oh, I want to talk about this, or other times it's just, you know, I always say it's like going to the, the gym for your mind.

• 28:32Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 28:32Speaker 01

  And I love it.

• 28:33Fearne Cotton?

  You've got to keep going.

• 28:34Speaker 01

  Totally. And just to be reminded of certain, you know, my therapist would just say, oh, well, you're probably feeling that because of, you know, and you go, oh, yeah, that's, yeah.

• 28:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, we can't see it because we're in it.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 28:47Fearne Cotton?

  You just need someone to, I have that literally every week, like, oh my God, how could I, that's so obvious, that's right there, but we're, we're living it. So, so when you're shooting something like Tiptoe, and you are confronted in a scene, or there's something that's come up, it could be a feeling that you weren't expecting because of the nature of what you're discussing in the scene, there's some big, heavy, you know, political subjects in there, and how the two characters are kind of so opposing in so many ways, what do you do to make sure then that you're all right, rather than just sort of, you can't obviously leave set and then just integrate back into the world with all those feelings?

• 29:22Speaker 01

  I, I, I mean, on this, because we shot it in Manchester, and in a funny way, I remember thinking, oh, I'm going to Manchester, and like, I've run a bar in the story on Canal Street, you know, and I've never really spent very much time in Manchester, only just little fleeting visits. And I remember thinking, oh, I'll have a great time, I'll be, I'll be out in Canal Street, I'll go to all that, well, it'll be, it'll be really fun, I'll let go, because I'll go dancing all the time, but, you know.

• 29:49Fearne Cotton?

  Nothing.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  I was like a monk. I, you know, I went out a few, a couple of times at weekends, but no, I had, I, I, I went, I would go home and be quiet. I know, and it's so, that's so not like me, actually. But I, that was the way I dealt with it. And I had my dog with me, and I think that was really important.

• 30:08Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  For a lot of the time, Lala was with me, but, and I, you know, just having to go out with her, and having to sort of get up a bit earlier, and just, you know, and even just the gym, I've become one of those people that sort of waxes lyrical about the gym, and. Recently, I find myself saying, I really, what's your favourite non-alcoholic beer? And I thought, what have they done to Alan?

• 30:30Speaker 01

  And I'm not, I'm drinking again, but I just, I just really was, I let it, you know, in a funny sort of way, having access to your emotions and being someone that is, you know, very conscious of that a lot of the things that I have to do are triggering or challenging to what's, you know, some of the things that I've found really difficult in my life. And I'm not, I go through life, I'm a, I'm a happy person and I'm, but I'm also prepared to be vulnerable. And I think that's what you have to do to be an actor, to be a good actor. You have to be prepared to be vulnerable. So if you, and of course it's not, you can't just switch it off. But, but the fact that I use the fact that I am like that in life, I feel like, I feel like I'm like that.

• 31:15Speaker 01

  And like I'm constantly, joy is here, but also despair is maybe there too. And I don't, I'm not despairing a lot of the time, but I feel things. And so I use that in my work. But also I, usually I would, to sort of get out of it, I would go out and have fun and do da da. With, in this one, it was, oh, so I didn't know so many people in Manchester. And so going out in public when you don't know so many people, you have to go out in a posse to keep, you know.

• 31:44Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 31:44Speaker 01

  So that was one of the things as well. And I, I, and I, yeah. So I was a little bit of a monk.

• 31:51Fearne Cotton?

  Do you think it's always helpful to sort of have that access or level of exposure to stuff from the past? Cause you know, obviously there is exposure therapy. I've done it in certain ways with E D M D R. The eye.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:04Fearne Cotton?

  Movement therapy, which I found really helpful. But I think when you're doing it on the job, you know, you're, you're working, you're confronted with issues that you know, might make you feel a certain way, or a memory might flash up. Do you think it's always helpful or, you know, cause I'm always. I'm always considering, how much should we leave things in the past and go, I've dealt with that, it's done, versus I need to have an awareness that it's there so that I don't get caught out, or I don't get.

• 32:32Speaker 01

  Well, I think, I think it's not like when I'm doing a scene, it's not, I'm not thinking, oh, this is like the past, or this is like an incident in my life. I suppose that's what method acting is, and I don't really adhere to that at all. I'm being, you know, I'm just pretending to be someone else and meaning it. But sometimes when the situations you're pretending are similar to things, very similar to things you have great experience of, then it sort of helps. But I think in general, just being someone who is willing to show your vulnerability in your life, on your face, and you know, is, is helpful to being a good artist. And especially a film on film, because you know, you're, you know, that's

• 33:15Speaker 01

  why it's so crazy that I'm doing the traitors, because I have the worst poker face in ever. In real life, I'm like.

• 33:22Fearne Cotton?

  So does Alan Carr, and he bloody won the UK one, that was why. It was hilarious.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  Yes, I know, it's so funny. I saw Maura, do you know Maura?

• 33:30Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  Irish, she was at the Time thing last night, she was interviewing me, and she goes, why did you not make me a traitor? And I was like, well, uh, if we, if we had, you wouldn't have had that great moment on TV. But I, I, I don't have good poker face in real life. And I think that's.

• 33:48Fearne Cotton?

  No, I don't. I couldn't go on it. I can't lie.

• 33:52Speaker 01

  But then you would maybe like if you, I mean, I think the thing is, when you have to lie, that, I mean, that's kind of like acting, when you have to lie. But even like, you know, I don't know whether it's I'm getting sloppy, but like, and I have a thing in my ear all the time when I'm doing it. And what do you call this again?

• 34:07Fearne Cotton?

  Earpiece.

• 34:07Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, thank you. Wow.

• 34:10Fearne Cotton?

  You're jet lagged. It's fine.

• 34:13Speaker 01

  So I have my earpiece in, and there's this great guy called Sam, who's the producer, who is always talking to me. And sometimes I actually, I feel I'm just like.

• 34:25Fearne Cotton?

  Brooding.

• 34:25Speaker 01

  Players, you know, blah, blah. And, and he's, and they've said, oh, what I've actually been doing is this, like,

• 34:32Speaker 01

  like rolling my eyes at them.

• 34:34Fearne Cotton?

  That's so good.

• 34:35Speaker 01

  Like when they've made really stupid decisions. And so you have, uh, yeah, it's, I have to, like, I've just sort of lapsed from character, really.

• 34:42Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm. No, I'm like that. I can't, I sort of can't not say the thing, like, say the truth. I would rather always just, well, like, I'm not very good if I've got not somebody else's secret, but a secret about me. I can't not say it.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 34:55Fearne Cotton?

  Have to just say the thing.

• 34:56Speaker 01

  Secret. I don't like surprises and secrets.

• 34:58Fearne Cotton?

  I hate surprises.

• 34:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, me too.

• 35:00Fearne Cotton?

  I'm not good with them. I'll always find out that it's gonna happen. I've got a spidey sense and I'll work it out. Yeah, I don't like surprises.

• 35:07Speaker 01

  I hate, I hate, often, quite often they do things, you know, when you're doing press stuff, they do, oh, they've got a surprise.

• 35:12Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, fuck that. Yeah, and here's your primary school teacher. No, you don't want that.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  No.

• 35:18Fearne Cotton?

  So say when you're, it could be anything, theatre, and you've got a big load of theatre shows coming up, Traitors, which is so gargantuan in the States. It is a massive show, like it is here, but on a ginormous scale. Or you're in a film, whatever. Does the, the feeling of that unworthiness or the past from your upbringing, does it creep into those big moments? In, in, is it a dialogue? Is it an, uh, in a narration of, I shouldn't be, I shouldn't be here? Where, where does it crop up? What is it?

• 35:50Speaker 01

  It's not, I feel very, now anyway, I feel very that I'm good enough. I understand my power.

• 35:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 35:59Speaker 01

  I do. And I feel I am, I know what I have to offer. And like, you know, it's great actually doing things like, I mean, I think when I'm acting, I, I feel like, I'm, I'm a good actor and I feel like, I, you know, I do tell the story and I can be heart wrenching, I can be funny and I, I don't have a problem with that. I don't, I'm not insecure about acting.

• 36:19Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  And then the thing like, like, you know, like at Pitlochry, I am really aware, I understand what I bring, like what the, what it means, what I can provide to the theatre and to the, because of me being famous, and coming, coming and then me attracting people to come and what all that means. I, I absolutely get all that. I don't have a problem with all that. No, it's, it's not really like that. What it, it's just that sometimes I, I can get triggered by certain personalities. I will allow them, I will allow people to be, well abusive, I suppose, abusive. And you know, it could be sort of, and it doesn't happen very often, but when it does, I, I, I will, I think,

• 37:02Speaker 01

  I should have stopped that sooner. I should have seen that coming. That's, that's, that's my black spot. Is that what you call it? Blind spot? Blind spot, yeah. Yeah, that's what it is. And it's also like one of these things because I am so confident and I understand so much. I am very self-aware, I think, except that, and then when something like that does happen, and it did happen actually, you know, relatively recently, and I, I'm mad at myself for having allowed it to happen and not having seen it. But that's the whole point. That's what you, that's the whole point is that you, it's so ingrained. For all, you know, for all my formative years, that was my familiar, was someone undermining me and telling me I was.

• 37:44Speaker 01

  And, and also the thing of people getting pleasure out of hurting you, that's something that's so difficult to, like, that I, I, you know, you know, that, that thing that people actually, you can see they're enjoying this power they have over you. And also it's the thing about when you're famous and blah, blah, blah, and you, you, I bet you know this too, that people want, kind of want to bring you down sometimes. Yep. And it's just really like, why? Why, why do you, I'm not doing this to you. And what is it about, it's, it's all about them, of course, their feelings of insecurity. So that's the thing, it's hard, I think. It's just like this, you go walk into a room and there's a.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  People know a lot of stuff about you, have loads of opinions about you. You don't know them or have any opinions about them and you go in open like this. And even when you are open like this, it can be interpreted in a different way because of all the baggage they've got about you. That is exhausting.

• 38:44Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  And especially when you go into situations where you're having to genuinely interact and connect with people. You just realise how much of a sort of, how much work, how you've got to scrape through it all to get to them, you know.

• 38:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and you've also got to, it's such a strange thing, you've got to go, I'm a human.

• 39:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm a nice person.

• 39:05Fearne Cotton?

  I'm just like a regular guy, you know, it's, that is exhausting and bonkers.

• 39:11Speaker 01

  It was funny, when I started the job at Pitlochry, I sort of said that I felt, they wanted to do these, you know, what am I doing that for?

• 39:21Fearne Cotton?

  We're doing shrouds.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  Yes, it was a TV show, a film, they wanted a documentary film about me doing it and about me starting this job. And I thought, I don't want to go into this arena, a new arena for me, you know, running a theatre and them, and I'm like, oh, you know, famous person comes to run the theatre and with a film crew, like the first time I'm meeting all these people with a film. So I said no, I didn't want to do it because, and I said this thing, I felt like, I thought people thought I was going to be like Godzilla, stomping, stomping through Pitlochry, you know, kind of.

• 39:52Speaker 01

  And, and, and I was right to think that, I think, that because people did have, you know, there is a scenario there that people believe in.

• 40:02Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 40:03Speaker 01

  And, and, and, and, and so you have to, a lot of the time, starting in that job was about trying to sort of push that aside. And I genuinely feel I'm actually really quite good at that. When I'm in a room with people and they see me, and you know what, you know what I think did it? When I felt like I've got them and I've, this is, they understand me, was when I DJed a big party, I mean, danced our tits off.

• 40:26Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 40:26Speaker 01

  And it was like, and I invited all the town to come. My little flyer of me DJing was in the chair. Oh, I play all sorts of, I'm like into poppy disco funny, you know.

• 40:35Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I like that.

• 40:35Speaker 01

  I love all, just, and I dance myself.

• 40:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 40:39Speaker 01

  Like now, I think, since I've been, when I, you know, I've done a few, I've done, I like teaching. But I think when I see, when I go to a club and I think, or a party, I think, why is the DJ not dancing? Why the fuck should I dance?

• 40:50Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, just stood there in a morose manner.

• 40:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't like that. So I dance too and get everyone dancing. And it's just such fun. And they had, they had flyers for it in the chip shop and the co-op. And all the people from the town came and I feel it was a really.

• 41:04Fearne Cotton?

  It's a good leveller.

• 41:06Speaker 01

  Absolutely, absolutely. And I feel if you can't dance and let go. And also I feel like I'm good at losing my inhibitions. And I think I am good at encouraging people to lose inhibitions because I'm basically saying, I'm not going to judge you. And that's what it is. You, you create a, you create a, because I'm like bonkers and dancing away. So why can't you?

• 41:27Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 41:28Speaker 01

  And it is such a thing. It's hard for some, for some people to do, but I love it when it happens.

• 41:31Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, how gorgeous. And it is ultimately so bonding because I think then you go into work the next day. And we've all had a lovely dance the night before.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 41:39Fearne Cotton?

  It's a sigh. It's a, it's a sigh of relief.

• 41:44Speaker 02

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of the best one yet.

• 41:46Speaker 07

  Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer.

• 41:51Speaker 02

  With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work.

• 42:02Speaker 07

  That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about.

• 42:07Speaker 02

  Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at G O O dot G L E slash Workspace with Gemini.

• 42:14Speaker 07

  That's G O O dot G L E slash Workspace with Gemini.

• 42:17Speaker 03

  The youth mental health crisis is growing and social media is a major driver. Kids are spending up to nine hours a day on screens, often unsupervised. And studies show a direct link to anxiety, depression and even suicidal thoughts. That's where Gab comes in. Gab offers safer phones and watches for kids with no social media, tailored to every age, offering the right tech at the right time, or tech in steps. From GPS tracking enabled watches for younger kids to phones with parent enabled apps for teens, each device allows kids to more safely grow their independence. Visit gab.com slash get gab and use code get gab for an exclusive offer.

• 42:58Speaker 03

  That's G A B B dot com forward slash get gab. Gab, tech in steps. Independence for them, peace of mind for parents.

• 43:08Speaker 04

  Network freedom and flexibility. That's what you want in a healthcare plan. With a Humana Medicare Advantage PPO plan, you can see any doctor in the country who accepts Medicare, including specialists. No referrals, no kidding. Learn more at gethumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to bill Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 43:41Fearne Cotton?

  When you were talking a moment ago about certain people that can trigger that feeling in you, I totally know what you're saying because I have it with, it's quite niche, people that I know have gone to like a fancy uni, who are men, who are journalists. It's that combination.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  Right, yeah.

• 44:00Fearne Cotton?

  So when I sense that that's who I'm being interviewed by, they went to Oxbridge and my instant thing, I'm making it all up in my head because this might not be the case, but they're going stupid, uneducated, like they're just judging me from the get-go. Some have been vile.

• 44:15Speaker 01

  That's probably because so one, at some point that has happened.

• 44:18Fearne Cotton?

  I've had a couple who have been vile. And what happens to me in that moment is I become probably 13, like in my everything, like in my body, I can feel like, oh my God, I'm like this. I've sort of folded on myself. I feel like a silly teenager because you do sort of regress back to whatever that may have been back then.

• 44:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:39Fearne Cotton?

  Do you have that sense, like you become, is it childlike in that moment?

• 44:43Speaker 01

  I, oh, I think maybe I, I'm just trying to think about this recent thing, what I, how I, no, in a funny sort of way, well, I tried, it was two phases. So the first bit, and I suppose which is the bit you're talking about, the triggering bit, I try super hard. I try, I think, what is wrong? What have I done wrong? What, that's, I think, mea culpa, mea culpa. What have I done wrong? What's this? What, how can I, I'm not doing this right. I should have, you know, blah, blah, blah. And which is, you know, I'm worthless. I'm terrible. And it's not like, I don't go through that in general in my life. When, when I'm challenged in that way and I feel like I'm not doing something well, or I'm letting someone down.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  I go like, oh, it's me. I've got to work hard. I've got to do, do, do, do. And then there comes a point and I'm like, oh no. How dare you? And I, you know, and I have, look what's, look at the situation here and I completely turn. So it just, I wish that would, the first bit would be less.

• 45:43Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 45:44Speaker 01

  Because that's, and I, because then I'm like, oh, this is what we're going to do here. This is what we're going to do and we're going to be fair and we're not going to, you know, but we're not doing this.

• 45:54Fearne Cotton?

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  And that part, I just, and also like, because I was also, I also do, what, what did you think you were doing? Why are you trying to undermine me? Why would you do that? That, you know, that when, when, when that happens, I, I'm, I actually can, I'm very good at, that's the thing. I'm very good at confrontation.

• 46:13Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, are you?

• 46:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:14Fearne Cotton?

  I'm working on that one.

• 46:16Speaker 01

  I've got, I don't know why, but I've got so much better at it. And, and, and I think the thing is sometimes when you say that, people think that means you're, you're good at shouting and confrontation to me is not. That's confrontation is just going, I want to talk about this.

• 46:30Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  Or I'm not going to do that.

• 46:32Fearne Cotton?

  Which is so healthy. People want that. We want to know where we stand with people, what the boundaries are.

• 46:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's like even saying, I don't want to take a selfie.

• 46:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 46:39Speaker 01

  You know, that's actually a confrontation, confrontation. And, and when I'm, I've just got really good at it over the years and I'll just say to people, you know, I, I want, I don't want to, I need to talk to you about this or blah, blah, blah. I, that, that, rather than getting angry about it or storing it up, which I think is probably what I used to do.

• 46:57Fearne Cotton?

  Same.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  When I was younger. It's actually been really interesting, like I'm right now, I'm in the middle of doing the High Life musical in Scotland with with Forbes and my, you know, who we we wrote the sitcom thirty years ago.

• 47:10Fearne Cotton?

  You brought it back for this, it's great.

• 47:12Speaker 01

  It's so nuts.

• 47:12Fearne Cotton?

  I love it.

• 47:13Speaker 01

  So hilarious, so bonkers. And Siobhan Redman and Patrick Rekard, the original other two actors in it, were all in it. And, you know, we're all a thousand years old and it's worth like these bunch of amazing young actors who weren't born when the series first went out.

• 47:29Fearne Cotton?

  Mad.

• 47:29Speaker 01

  It's so nuts. But it's been interesting going back to like working with Forbes or even working with Siobhan and Patrick, it's thirty years later and just, and I think I I am, I I think I deal, I deal with things in a different way. You know, I'm not, I don't, like Forbes and I, I think I say to him, I don't think we should do this or we should, you know, I I rather than, I think perhaps in the past, I think I would have stored it all up and sort of hoped I was sending the signals to him that I wanted when I might not have been.

• 48:00Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 48:01Speaker 01

  And now I'm really clear about it. I just, and and it seems like you're being do do do, but actually you're just being clear.

• 48:08Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, it's so much better than building up the resentment and then being pissed off or being passive aggressive or no, no one wants that.

• 48:15Speaker 01

  No.

• 48:15Fearne Cotton?

  I think it's a great life skill having.

• 48:18Speaker 01

  It really is. I'm not quite sure how it happened, but it has happened.

• 48:21Fearne Cotton?

  Hmm.

• 48:21Speaker 01

  It's so funny. I, oh, I, I remember like recently, so a couple of years ago, I, we had, I was, my house in New York had been renovated and the builders said, oh, yes, you can move in on this certain date. So sell your old apartment, it's ready, yeah, we're ready to go. And then we sold the apartment really fast and they said, oh, there's a three month delay.

• 48:39Fearne Cotton?

  Oh.

• 48:39Speaker 01

  And I was furious, furious. And I remember I said to the the head of the building, I said, if this was a restaurant, you'd give me a free meal. What are you going to give me? And I went, I did this whole thing and he sort of, and I got free some free, I got another year of warranty and I didn't have to pay the thing after a certain date.

• 48:59Fearne Cotton?

  Too right.

• 48:59Speaker 01

  Like fair enough, you know, duh. And everything, and I told my business manager about this. And and he said, gosh, you're really good at confrontation. I wish I was that good at confrontation. I was like, I don't want to hear that from you, my business manager. But what was hilarious was that when it was all finished, and you know, like when you have finished, like here it's called snagging.

• 49:20Fearne Cotton?

  Right, yeah.

• 49:21Speaker 01

  So we're having that in our place up in Scotland right now, snagging's happening.

• 49:24Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  But they call it something else in America, can't remember. Anyway, I was coming out of the house one day and the man that I'd gone to town with, and he was scared of me after that. He was coming up the steps and he saw me and he kind of blanched and he started like, oh, well, so Alan, you know, you're here in the house now and it's so beautiful and it must be, it's worth all the trouble, isn't it? And I, and I said, and I just think, this is like, I think I'm so glad I have the skill that I actually can say these lines, think of these lines at times. I said, my rage for you is diminishing. Yes.

• 49:59Fearne Cotton?

  So theatrical.

• 50:00Speaker 01

  Isn't it good? So Betty Davis. My rage for you is diminishing, comma, yes. I loved that.

• 50:07Fearne Cotton?

  I'm going to still, I need to use that in the future. I'm on a very good path towards that. I used to be so bad at confrontation. I've just done a book tour and me and my friend Pana, who were chatting about this very subject, sort of people pleasing and not wanting to rock the boat.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:24Fearne Cotton?

  Sort of thought of like the worst one that we've both done, which is when you're in a massage and someone is really going to town. And they go, is the pressure okay? You're, you're literally crying.

• 50:36Speaker 01

  And you say, no.

• 50:36Fearne Cotton?

  Is the pressure okay? And you go, it's great.

• 50:40Fearne Cotton?

  What, what, why are you not saying it? This is, stop, it hurts. It's mad. Anyway, I'm not there anymore.

• 50:47Speaker 01

  That's good.

• 50:47Fearne Cotton?

  I'm not where you, I'm in the middle. I'm getting there.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  That's hilarious. That is such a good example.

• 50:52Fearne Cotton?

  It's so ridiculous. Before we wrap up, we've already touched on music and your love of DJing and playing great tunes. We are making a happy place playlist where we're gonna, all of our guests have put brilliantly happy songs on there. Or songs that make them feel buoyant and jubilant and wanna dance around. What would you put on our playlist?

• 51:12Speaker 01

  Am I allowed, there's a, there's a mashup by David Guetta, how do you say it again?

• 51:17Fearne Cotton?

  Guetta, Guetta.

• 51:18Speaker 01

  Guetta, Guetta, of The Proclaimers.

• 51:22Fearne Cotton?

  Is this the one you couldn't play on Desert Island Discs?

• 51:24Speaker 01

  Yes. I, and I, and so, because I don't know why I couldn't play it because it's a-

• 51:28Fearne Cotton?

  BBC.

• 51:29Speaker 01

  Yes, BBC. So it's The Proclaimers, 500 Miles, Sia, Titanium and-

• 51:36Fearne Cotton?

  Genius.

• 51:37Speaker 01

  Midnight Oil. I always get which one's the band and which one's the song. The time has come-

• 51:43Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, yeah.

• 51:43Speaker 01

  To say, fair is fair. That one-

• 51:45Fearne Cotton?

  What a mashup.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  Honestly, it's genius.

• 51:48Fearne Cotton?

  We're putting that on there. No one else, unsurprisingly, has put that on there.

• 51:51Speaker 01

  It's ama- it's amazing.

• 51:53Fearne Cotton?

  Okay.

• 51:53Speaker 01

  Because also, it starts with the Midnight Oil thing and everyone's like, oh, and then it goes-

• 52:00Speaker 01

  And it's like, oh, it's Sia. Then it's, then you hear, when I wake up.

• 52:04Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 52:04Speaker 01

  And I was like, what? It's The Proclaimers. And then, you know, it keeps coming in at different times and it's, oh, it's so good.

• 52:09Fearne Cotton?

  Desert Island Discs made you just play The Proclaimers, didn't they?

• 52:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:12Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it was just straight up.

• 52:13Speaker 01

  I know.

• 52:13Fearne Cotton?

  It was, it was great, but it wasn't the mashup.

• 52:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, it wasn't what I wanted to do. And, um, yeah, because it was a mashup, because it's on SoundCloud and things like that, not, actually, it's not commercially available, that's what it did.

• 52:24Fearne Cotton?

  We'll find it. We'll, we'll get that from somewhere. That's going on there.

• 52:27Speaker 01

  Have you done Desert Island Discs?

• 52:29Fearne Cotton?

  No, I'm, I'm not there yet. One day, please pick me.

• 52:32Speaker 01

  I guess I'm maybe even intrigued about when people cry at Desert, because everyone cries.

• 52:36Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 52:36Speaker 01

  And-

• 52:37Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, well, music evokes-

• 52:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:39Fearne Cotton?

  Everything, isn't it?

• 52:40Speaker 01

  And also when you're in, when you're doing it, like, it starts and you hear this theme tune.

• 52:45Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 52:46Speaker 01

  And it's actually because you've got headphones on.

• 52:47Fearne Cotton?

  It's such a moment.

• 52:48Speaker 01

  It's much better. You hear the little seagulls and everything.

• 52:49Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I love it.

• 52:50Speaker 01

  And you're like, oh my God, I'm actually on fucking Desert Island Discs.

• 52:52Fearne Cotton?

  And I've listened to it forever. I'm obsessed.

• 52:54Speaker 01

  I, I, I love it. And I love when it's like some random scientist lady-

• 52:58Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, me too.

• 52:59Speaker 01

  That I've never heard of. And I think, well, you're amazing. Yeah.

• 53:01Fearne Cotton?

  I love it. It's just the storytelling. It's so good.

• 53:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I, it's just such a brilliant, and so many people have tried to do versions of it over the years in different ways. But actually, the old fashionedness of it, and the thing they think, you know, what can you actually, what, you have to think of what you would actually take for an island if you were going on an island yourself. I took marijuana seeds.

• 53:23Fearne Cotton?

  Why not?

• 53:23Speaker 01

  Why not?

• 53:24Fearne Cotton?

  If you're gonna be there, you might as well have a good time.

• 53:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:26Fearne Cotton?

  And be chilled out.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know.

• 53:28Fearne Cotton?

  One of my favourites is Princess Margaret. Have you listened to that one?

• 53:30Speaker 01

  No.

• 53:31Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my god, it's from obviously a million years ago. It is genius.

• 53:36Speaker 01

  Do you know, I'm obsessed with Princess Margaret.

• 53:38Fearne Cotton?

  Me too.

• 53:39Speaker 01

  Because I love just, I once insulted Princess Margaret.

• 53:42Fearne Cotton?

  No, you did not.

• 53:43Speaker 01

  Forbes and I, it was so funny because recently someone sent us this picture of us and you know those things.

• 53:49Fearne Cotton?

  That I know.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  And it looks like Princess Margaret is curtseying to Forbes. I think she was just smaller than him, or maybe, I don't know. But it was, this is probably in the like 1987 or 8 or something, very long time ago. And it was a gala for Scottish Ballet and she was the patron of Scottish Ballet. And it was at the time when, you know, it was like when Andrew and Fergie were all busy. And we were Victor and Barry, these characters, and we were sort of huge in Scotland at the time. And we came on, but it was a frosty crowd.

• 54:22Fearne Cotton?

  Right.

• 54:23Speaker 01

  And we said this gag, we said, which, I was like, which one's, which one's Fergie? Like that. And Princess Margaret's up on the thing. And he went, no, it's not, it's Margaret. I was like, which one is she? Like this. And Forbes went, oh, that's her up there munching the chocolate liqueurs. Right? That's what we said. Kind of funny.

• 54:42Fearne Cotton?

  That's great.

• 54:43Speaker 01

  And the whole place just went.

• 54:45Fearne Cotton?

  Oh.

• 54:45Speaker 01

  Like that. And we were like, oh. And my friend who was sitting near her afterwards, I thought, it'll be fine. It was a little, everyone, you know, everyone's nice. When I saw him afterwards, he said, oh, Alan. And I went, oh, I said, was it really bad? Did she really look like she was offended? And she went, she visibly stiffened.

• 55:06Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I bet she did.

• 55:09Speaker 01

  And so then we met her. She was nice when we met her.

• 55:12Fearne Cotton?

  One final quick question. Where Alan Cumming is your happy place?

• 55:18Speaker 01

  My happy place is at home. At home, I think probably it's either it's either it's maybe in Loch Lalla, or it's like that, or it's leaning against my aga. Or it's in, I have a place in the Catskills of mountains, it's north of New York, so.

• 55:36Fearne Cotton?

  Wow.

• 55:37Speaker 01

  Of city. And I have a place there that my brother said is like I've bought my childhood. And I feel that it's, I'm completely, I made it, you know what I mean? I made it was I built the cabins and stuff like that. And I feel that's, I feel that's a really great achievement as well. I have a sense of achievement and it's just a sanctuary and it reminds me of Scotland. And yet it's my, it's like my, it is, it's like my childhood that I've, the things that I loved about my childhood and my upbringing, made in my own way. So, yeah.

• 56:05Fearne Cotton?

  So beautiful. I love that. Well, look, thank you so much.

• 56:09Speaker 01

  Thank you, friend. So nice to talk to you.

• 56:10Fearne Cotton?

  For being on Happy Place. I've loved it. And good luck with your theatre run with Tiptoe. It's a genius show. Thank you so much, Alan.

• 56:17Speaker 01

  Thank you, thank you.

• 56:19Fearne Cotton?

  What a man, what a chat. And if you watched that on YouTube, what a jumper. I wanted to take that jumper off his back. I actually did do that once in a podcast episode. Do you remember when, if any of you listened to the Zane Malik podcast episode? I talked at Zane about how much I loved his cardigan, so much so, and I actually feel embarrassed about this, he gave me it at the end. I wear it all the bloody time. It's like a grey cardigan with little rhinestones on it. I'm never out of the thing, but I quite literally took the clothes off his back. I was one step away from doing that with Alan, but I managed to refrain somehow. But yeah, what a stylish guy. Amazing hair, too. God,

• 57:02Fearne Cotton?

  I'm just completely in love with him. Alan will be creatively involved in four different productions at the Pitt-Lockry Festival Theatre later this year. So if you're in Scotland or you fancy a nice little trip there, definitely check those out because, oh my God, it's going to be so good. All right. A huge thanks again to Alan and of course to you gorgeous lot for being here with us. Love you loads.

• 57:46Fearne Cotton?

  Happy Place is researched by me, Fern Cotton. The producer is Anushka Tate at Happy Place Studios, with studio engineering by Basil Oxtoby.

• 57:57Speaker 02

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work.

• 58:16Speaker 07

  That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about.

• 58:20Speaker 02

  Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 58:27Speaker 07

  That's go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 58:30Speaker 03

  The youth mental health crisis is growing, and social media is a major driver. Kids are spending up to nine hours a day on screens, often unsupervised, and studies show a direct link to anxiety, depression, and even suicidal thoughts. That's where Gab comes in. Gab offers safer phones and watches for kids with no social media, tailored to every age, offering the right tech at the right time, or Tech in Steps. From GPS-tracking-enabled watches for younger kids to phones with parent-enabled apps for teens, each device allows kids to more safely grow their independence. Visit gab.com/getgab and use code GETGAB for an exclusive offer.

• 59:11Speaker 03

  That's G A B B dot com forward slash get gab. Gab: Tech in Steps. Independence for them, peace of mind for parents.

• 59:21Speaker 04

  At Humana, our Medicare Advantage plans are easy to understand and easy on your wallet, like offering more benefits than you'd get from original Medicare alone, and including dental, vision, and hearing coverage in every plan. And the best part is, every plan has a $0 or low monthly plan premium, which makes it easier to save, too. So this Medicare planning season, plan well with Humana. Learn more at gethumana.com. Humana is a Medicare Advantage, HMO and PPO organisation with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 59:51Speaker 05

  Help, I sexed my boss is the podcast where manners

• 59:54Speaker 06

  meets mayhem.

• 59:55Speaker 05

  I'm William Hanson.

• 59:56Speaker 06

  I'm Jordan North.

• 59:57Speaker 05

  And together we take on the hilarious challenges of modern life.

• 1:00:00Speaker 06

  William's the arbiter of etiquette.

• 1:00:02Speaker 05

  And Jordan's the chaotic yin to my perfectly polished yang.

• 1:00:06Speaker 06

  So if you want laugh-out-loud stories and brutally honest moments, then you'll love Help, I Sexed My Boss.

• 1:00:12Speaker 05

  Watch and listen every Tuesday and Friday.

• 1:00:14Speaker 06

  On YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:00:17Speaker 05

  Just search Sexed.

• 1:00:18Speaker 06

  Be warned, it's a bit rude.