Phil Lord & Chris Miller (PROJECT HAIL MARY), Vol. III

It's the movie everyone is talking about and we've got the brilliant filmmakers on to talk about all of it. PROJECT HAIL MARY's Lord & Miller return to chat with Josh about Ryan, Rocky, the Spider-Verse and more! SUPPORT THE SHOW BY SUPPORTING OUR SPONSORS! Rula -- Rula patients typically pay $15 per session when using insurance. Connect with quality therapists and mental health experts who specialize in you at ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.rula.com/happy⁠⁠⁠⁠ #rulapod #sponsored NordVPN -- EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://nordvpn.com/hsc⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! Saily -- 🌎 Get an exclusive 15% discount on your first Saily data plans! Use code HSC at checkout. Download Saily app or go to to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://saily.com/hsc⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Limited Time Offer–Get Huel today with my exclusive offer of 15% OFF online with my code happy15 at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://huel.com/happy15.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ New Customers Only. Thank you to Huel for partnering and supporting our show! Check out the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Happy Sad Confused patreon here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! We've got discount codes to live events, merch, early access, exclusive episodes, video versions of the podcast, and more! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:29Josh Horowitz?

  Have you guys ever entertained or been offered a live-action Spider-Man film?

• 0:34Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 0:39Josh Horowitz?

  Which one? Like, the actual Spider-Man? Or one of those Sony spinoffs?

• 0:44Speaker 02

  You know...

• 0:45Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 0:46Speaker 02

  You know.

• 0:47Josh Horowitz?

  Did you come close? Was it a serious consideration? Or did it just not?

• 0:51Speaker 02

  As you know, we love Spider-Man. We're fans of the character and the world.

• 0:56Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 0:57Speaker 02

  We'll leave it at...

• 0:58Speaker 03

  Yeah. Prepare your ears, humans. Happy, Sad, Confused begins.

• 1:07Josh Horowitz?

  Hey, guys, it's Josh. Welcome to another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Today on the show, the brilliant filmmakers that are: Phil Lord and Chris Miller, talking Project Hail Mary and so much more. Hey, guys, thanks as always for checking out the podcast on YouTube, on Spotify. However you're enjoying it, I appreciate you guys. Project Hail Mary coverage continues on the podcast because I love this movie. And when you have an opportunity to talk to the likes of Ryan Gosling and Lord and Miller, you take it. So hopefully you guys enjoyed the Ryan Gosling episode last week. If you haven't checked it out, what are you doing with your life? Check it out. And now we continue with Lord and Miller. They are the directors of Project Hail Mary. It is now in theaters. Check it out. If you haven't already, check it out again. I've seen it three times. I love this movie. Of course, based on Andy Weir's bestselling book,

• 1:52Josh Horowitz?

  it is a sci-fi, adventure, comedy, drama, thriller. All the things. Most importantly, it is a great cinematic experience. And I so enjoyed having Lord and Miller back on the pod. I believe it's their third time on. They're just kindred spirits. We're all men of a certain age, grew up on certain kinds of movies, talking about movies, geeking out. Hopefully, this will be like eavesdropping on, yeah, just three dorky guys talking about Howard the Duck. Yeah, Howard the Duck comes up a lot in this conversation. I don't know. Before we get to Warden Miller, though, a quick reminder, as always, patreon.com/happy, sad, confused. If you were a Patreon subscriber, you would have gotten early access to this

• 2:35Josh Horowitz?

  and Ryan Gosling to virtually every episode we do. You get bonus materials, you get access to our live events, Stanley Tucci coming up in May, all sorts of fun stuff, autographed merch, autographed posters, all sorts of cool things. Patreon.com/happy, sad, confused. Give it a shot, why not? Okay, Warden Miller, Warden Miller, you know their resume. Do I really need to say Cloudy with a Chance Meatballs, 21 Jump Street, 22 Jump Street, the Spiderverse movies, so much television they've produced. Solo? That didn't come to pass, but they did, they did direct a fair amount of Solo. And yeah, we talk a little Solo in this conversation, too. Always easy to talk to these guys. They are fun to nerd out with. They had a lot to

• 3:19Josh Horowitz?

  say about the difficult but beautiful production of Project Hail Mary. This was a big swing, a really difficult movie to make, but thank goodness, they poured their blood, sweat, and tears into it because it really came out in the end. But we also talk things about, lots of things about Jump Street, about Solo, about the Spiderverse films, about their dalliance with a Flash movie way back when, and a lot more. This is a fun filmmaker geek out session. So I think you guys are gonna enjoy this. Again, check out Project Hail Mary in theaters now if you haven't already. No real spoilers in this, so don't worry about that. And enjoy my conversation with Phil Lord and Chris Miller.

• 3:59Speaker 02

  Hey, how's it going?

• 4:00Josh Horowitz?

  Oh, my gosh, I didn't see you guys there.

• 4:01Speaker 02

  I know, hey.

• 4:02Speaker 04

  How are you?

• 4:03Josh Horowitz?

  Phil, Chris, this is definitely the first time we've had this conversation.

• 4:06Speaker 04

  100%.

• 4:07Josh Horowitz?

  We definitely didn't have a few minutes of conversation, then say, let's restart it.

• 4:10Speaker 02

  Never.

• 4:11Speaker 04

  We would never do such a thing.

• 4:13Speaker 02

  No. You were not super racist before.

• 4:16Josh Horowitz?

  That's what stopped the conversation.

• 4:17Speaker 04

  And that's what stopped us before.

• 4:19Josh Horowitz?

  Going down the line of all these.

• 4:20Speaker 02

  That's so weird, but all right.

• 4:22Josh Horowitz?

  All right. Congratulations officially, Project Hail Mary. Look, we were at Comic Con, that was a moment. I only saw like 20 minutes of footage. For all I knew, the rest of it could have been crappy.

• 4:32Speaker 04

  How did we do? Did we fall off a cliff?

• 4:35Josh Horowitz?

  No.

• 4:35Speaker 04

  Or did we kept?

• 4:36Josh Horowitz?

  You lived up to it. I was saying to you before, like this is a, you know, we're taping this right before it comes out. The reception is in, critics have weighed in, everybody truly adores this movie. You can't ask for a better early reception. Who acts as the pessimist, who acts as the optimist?

• 4:52Speaker 04

  Oh. Who brings? Two pessimists.

• 4:54Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 4:56Speaker 04

  There's pessimist and even more pessimist, I would say that's, I'm the even more pessimist. In this case.

• 5:03Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 5:03Josh Horowitz?

  I was gonna say, generally you guys have succeeded a lot in your career. You would think by now you're kind of.

• 5:08Speaker 04

  You take it, I take it hard. Like, even the good reviews, there's one sentence.

• 5:14Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 5:14Speaker 04

  That I can't, so I have now, I've mostly, the last couple of movies, I, my practice is I don't read anything. And I ask Chris, how are we doing in the streets?

• 5:25Josh Horowitz?

  Cause this guy knows.

• 5:26Speaker 02

  I'm like, we're doing, we're doing proof, I've got my ear to the ground, I was like, listen, you know, I got my sources.

• 5:31Speaker 04

  And then I wait if someone sends, like, a great, if like, if something's really great.

• 5:37Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 5:37Speaker 04

  Someone will send it to me, except.

• 5:40Speaker 02

  Then you can still find a sentence that's like, eh.

• 5:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I try, yeah, exactly.

• 5:43Josh Horowitz?

  So there's clearly a history, there's a, there's a review that you still have in the back of your brain.

• 5:46Speaker 04

  Well, do you know that my, my lovely girlfriend Irene sent me a text, like, I just read the most incredible review, and sent it to me, and accidentally sent the wrong one, which was one of.

• 5:59Josh Horowitz?

  For this movie?

• 6:00Speaker 04

  Yes, one of very few mean reviews. And I, I had to go through the whole thing to, cause I was like, well, obviously this gets good at some point.

• 6:10Josh Horowitz?

  You're waiting for the turn.

• 6:10Speaker 04

  And it never did.

• 6:13Speaker 04

  But anyway, that was the one, I got it out of, I got it out of my system.

• 6:16Josh Horowitz?

  Oh my gosh.

• 6:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, but no, it's really, like, people are loving it, like, they're walking out of the theater and like tweeting about it, and it's like fun to see them, like, like, really be overwhelmed.

• 6:26Speaker 02

  Right, like the emotional connection that people are having with it is really the thing that's like, the most exciting about it.

• 6:32Josh Horowitz?

  And I think, look, I mean, I've seen it twice, I'm gonna see it again at your premiere, like, it is the one of those things that like, it is an emotional experience, it's like a ride, like, it's like thrilling, it's emotional, it's, I know this is what you guys, I think, aspired to, like, one of those kind of movies that like, is hopefully gonna be something for a generation, that's a repeatable movie, that's, I mean, that's a high aspiration.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  Right. But we go into movies, even, you know, if we're doing 22 Jump Street, we're going like, we're gonna make, we wanna make the funniest, craziest comedy of all time.

• 7:03Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 7:03Speaker 02

  We, we are always trying to. Be superlative with the stuff that we're doing. And this one was like, we knew from the beginning, from the source material, that it was a ride. Reading it was like, you're laughing, you're crying, you're excited, you're at the edge of your seat. You're like, what's gonna happen? I stayed up till 5:00 in the morning trying to finish this book. So I was like, what's gonna happen to Rocky? And I was like, why do I care about Iraq? And we wanted to take people on that type of thing. When you have something that feels that special, you wanna do it to excellence.

• 7:37Josh Horowitz?

  Was there a challenge you didn't anticipate? Because there are a lot of obvious things that seemed like this is, for a thousand reasons, going to be a challenge. What, looking back, surprised you about the process?

• 7:48Speaker 04

  What's the hardest thing? We didn't guess. Is it the glass?

• 7:52Speaker 02

  I mean, the glass, all the reflections. Like, there's always a wall between Grace and Rocky. And you're like, oh, man. And we had puppeteers, and it was like the reflections of the puppeteers in the glass that we weren't anticipating. But that was...

• 8:04Josh Horowitz?

  90% of the budget is removed from the glass.

• 8:07Speaker 04

  Quite a bit of lovely work done to make the glass look great.

• 8:11Speaker 02

  We knew that Rocky was a challenge, but we knew that we had a plan to do it and do it great. And the 0G was hard, but we also had a plan to do it well.

• 8:27Speaker 04

  I would say the power supply for the rotating sun.

• 8:32Speaker 02

  Right.

• 8:33Speaker 04

  Was unanticipated.

• 8:35Josh Horowitz?

  Just the amount of power you need. Why would you say this? You like shut down like a whole grid or something at some point?

• 8:40Speaker 02

  So we built a tunnel that was like the length of the largest stage at Shepperton. And because they had gravity from this centrifugal spinning, that meant that this translucent tunnel that we're in had to be lit, but with like a rotating light, which meant that we had to build this array of lights, 360 around this entire tunnel, that took so much power that we had to build a bridge to the stage across the street and take wires to steal the power from that other stage just to shoot the scenes. That was more of a thing than we thought.

• 9:17Josh Horowitz?

  They don't teach that in film school.

• 9:18Speaker 02

  But I should say the surprising, sneaky, hardest thing about this movie was the book has a lot of like science that Grace does. And because it's narrated from inside of his brain, he can tell you what he's thinking, but... For the first like third of this movie, he doesn't have anybody to talk to about it.

• 9:37Josh Horowitz?

  Totally.

• 9:37Speaker 02

  So, how do we show the audience what he's doing? And make you understand and care about it without him narrating the thing? That was like actually just like a writing challenge for Drew and like a cinematic challenge for us.

• 9:51Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, like choosing the plausible moments and I'm gonna talk to Drew about this too of like, when would he actually say something to himself that doesn't feel like a leap?

• 9:59Speaker 02

  Right, he almost never does.

• 10:00Speaker 04

  And we have a great, you know, lead actor who will not do anything fake.

• 10:06Speaker 02

  That feels false, right?

• 10:08Josh Horowitz?

  So great that way.

• 10:09Speaker 04

  That's very helpful.

• 10:10Speaker 02

  No, no, no, I mean, his face obviously can

• 10:12Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 10:13Speaker 02

  can tell you everything you need to know, but he wasn't, you're gonna be like, he would bust you on it if you're like trying to get him to say something to himself out loud. You know, that feels fake.

• 10:22Speaker 04

  And now I will put two CCs. So, so it just meant that we had to do it cinematically, which was like a really fun and interesting challenge. We, you know, we built these experiments with advisors and we, you know, he does them all and he does them properly and we just tried to make it look cool.

• 10:42Josh Horowitz?

  You, you told me once that like, I feel like every, I think you said every film of yours has had a disastrous test screening. Where like an early in the process, you're like, oh god.

• 10:51Speaker 04

  Oh, we got that out of the way early.

• 10:53Speaker 02

  We never did, like our first official test screening went great, but we do a lot of like early screenings for friends and family and like other filmmakers and writers and we, you know, this movie was massive. And when we finally got the assembly down to under four hours long, we subjected some filmmaker friends of ours to like a three hour, 45 minute

• 11:16Josh Horowitz?

  Wow.

• 11:16Speaker 02

  cut of the movie, which was embarrassing. And uh

• 11:21Josh Horowitz?

  So what was the major note besides, cut an hour?

• 11:24Speaker 04

  Shorter.

• 11:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:26Speaker 04

  I just think that, that you could just, you know, you just don't know how the scenes are gonna land with a lay audience. You know, for us We thought everything was charming. But some of those charming things didn't land. So really, it made it a lot, it made it really easy to get down to three hours.

• 11:44Speaker 02

  Right. And then, and then we had to slowly, slowly work our way down to two and a half hours.

• 11:48Josh Horowitz?

  My sense is you are kind of like Edgar Wright's, like a friend.

• 11:51Speaker 02

  Right, yep.

• 11:52Josh Horowitz?

  You're part of like kind of that group of, I'm sure you have a group of filmmakers you trust. They trust you. So who, can you say who is in that group? Who was helpful for you in this process or has been?

• 12:00Speaker 02

  I mean, we had, we, many, many, many people. I don't want to leave anyone out, but.

• 12:07Speaker 04

  Trying to think, who was in that first screening? It was Drew.

• 12:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, Drew Garros. Um.

• 12:11Josh Horowitz?

  It's not with screener, that's also a film.

• 12:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly.

• 12:14Speaker 02

  It was.

• 12:17Speaker 04

  Dave Callahan.

• 12:18Speaker 02

  Yep. Jason.

• 12:19Speaker 04

  Jeff, Jeff Rowe.

• 12:20Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 12:21Speaker 04

  From Ninja Turtles and Middles vs. Machines.

• 12:24Josh Horowitz?

  Sure, yeah.

• 12:25Speaker 04

  It was just like, who will give us thoughtful advice?

• 12:27Speaker 02

  Jason Reitman was there.

• 12:28Speaker 04

  Jason came, who gives thoughtful advice, but like will understand what this is.

• 12:34Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 12:34Speaker 04

  Right now. You know, like they won't, they're not gonna, they're gonna understand that it's very long and they, and they'll give us the right advice.

• 12:42Josh Horowitz?

  It's interesting because like, obviously you've worked so much in animation over the years and that, that, the nature of that is a very iterative process. And this is a very FX, you know, heavy film. And you can, I feel, would, I think you can only be so iterative. I mean, you can edit down, you can cut.

• 12:57Speaker 02

  Right.

• 12:58Speaker 04

  Oh, contraire, my friend.

• 12:59Josh Horowitz?

  Educate me.

• 13:00Speaker 02

  You can't build things.

• 13:02Speaker 04

  So, yeah, and then, and so we, we shot this whole, most of this movie virtually before we got on stage. We, you know, on a motion capture stage that we built during prep. Next, while we're building the sets, we have this, we're spending like every morning on this stage.

• 13:18Speaker 02

  Greg Fraser, our cinematographer, and he has like a virtual camera on his shoulder. And it was originally sort of like, let's make sure that the sets that we're building for the, for the, for the spaceship are the right dimensions. And if we need to do a move that we can like, know where we need to cut a section of the, of the ship. And is the exterior of the ship, or what area of the ship do we need to build?

• 13:41Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 13:42Speaker 02

  And all that type of stuff. So we were just like, but it gave us a chance to play around and experiment in a way that was a lot easier than when you're like on a set.

• 13:50Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 13:50Speaker 02

  With, with everybody and it's really expensive. So it was great having that, like.

• 13:57Speaker 02

  As like a little test kitchen to try 100 different things. And then we cut that together in little animatics. And we were like, OK, this scene works. And so we had a good feeling. But then we'd show up on the day and then other new ideas would come.

• 14:09Speaker 04

  Of course, you have to.

• 14:09Speaker 02

  And you have to like plan, plan, plan. Know exactly where the wires are going to go for the zero gravity. All of that stuff. But then be flexible to like adjust when a better idea comes along.

• 14:20Speaker 04

  You have to plan to be flexible. Right? And the sense of play has to like pervade the whole production. It means that like you've created a culture where like, you know, Gary props can pitch you an idea. I built this thing and I was thinking, oh, great idea. And so that that way it never gets stale. A movie that gets planned for six months can get stale. So we're always just trying to figure out, how can this movie have as much personality and spontaneity as possible?

• 14:49Josh Horowitz?

  More Happy, Sad, Confused coming up.

• 14:55Speaker 05

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• 16:14Josh Horowitz?

  Well, it's interesting. I've talked to so many filmmakers about the challenges of like space movies, like including no less than like Danny Boyle famously.

• 16:20Speaker 02

  Right.

• 16:21Josh Horowitz?

  He was talking about like Sunshine like almost broke him.

• 16:23Speaker 02

  Right.

• 16:23Speaker 04

  He said something to Dan Pemberton, I think.

• 16:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:27Speaker 04

  He said that, yes, every director wants to go to space and most of them never go back.

• 16:34Josh Horowitz?

  Would you go back? Do you understand what he's talking about?

• 16:37Speaker 04

  I do, but I, but we would go back.

• 16:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was, it was a challenge, but it was a joy challenge. Like, like Greg and, and Paul Lambert, VFX supervisor, like in the middle of, after the first month of shooting, came to us like kind of joyfully going like, this is the most complicated movie we've ever worked on and we just finished making two Dune films. And so, and they were like, just can you believe what we're doing? Can you believe what we're getting away with? And it was like, you know, putting, like right in a harness to be on wires for like day seven in a row is like, you're like, alright, okay, here we go, you know?

• 17:16Josh Horowitz?

  But then again, the vomit comet wouldn't have been that much fun to make this.

• 17:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's called vomit comet for a reason.

• 17:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  And you only get on that thing.

• 17:23Speaker 04

  You get like 10 seconds.

• 17:24Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 17:25Josh Horowitz?

  Do you match that?

• 17:26Speaker 04

  So it's hard to make a movie 10 seconds at a time.

• 17:28Speaker 02

  Right.

• 17:29Speaker 04

  Or 30, I guess.

• 17:29Speaker 02

  And on a, on a very small piece of set that you would be able to have. But, you know, he, we ended up using this thing called a spin ring that allowed him to like move his hips around and spin himself any which way he wanted to. So he wasn't just like gliding along like a high school Peter Pan production. And he's such a gifted, in addition to being an actor with an insane range. He also is a great physical performer because he can do anything and he's super handsome, but it's fine.

• 17:58Josh Horowitz?

  You set that aside, it's fine.

• 17:59Speaker 02

  It's fine.

• 17:59Josh Horowitz?

  No jealousy.

• 18:00Speaker 02

  No, it's like, it's super fair. But, but he, it would, it would allow him to improvise.

• 18:07Speaker 02

  In the air, like doing air parkour. And he would like, we'd set up this path and be like going from here to there. But you're bad at zero gravity, so whatever you would do. And then he'd sort of like work out with the guys who were like pulling him left and right on the, on the wires. He'd try some stuff and then he would kind of improv, like being clumsy in zero G. And that's the kind of thing where you're like planning a lot.

• 18:29Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 18:30Speaker 02

  But giving a space for creativity and invention.

• 18:33Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, it doesn't seem fair that like the guy that can be literally the coolest guy on the planet.

• 18:37Speaker 02

  Right.

• 18:37Josh Horowitz?

  And drive.

• 18:38Speaker 02

  Right.

• 18:38Josh Horowitz?

  Can also like roll off a table like Will Ferrell.

• 18:41Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 18:42Speaker 04

  I know.

• 18:43Speaker 02

  He has such commands.

• 18:44Speaker 04

  The most remarkable is that he's willing.

• 18:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 18:47Speaker 04

  To do that.

• 18:48Josh Horowitz?

  That's half the battle up there.

• 18:49Speaker 04

  And that is what makes that guy special is like he sweats the details. He cares about everything. He wants it to be great and he's willing to throw his body on the floor. If it'll make it great. He, he wants to please the audience on some level. He wants to give them something.

• 19:09Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, so we talked a little bit about Rocky. Let's talk a little more because I mean, this movie doesn't work without Rocky. And it's really a genuinely hugely emotional relationship to see Ryland and Rocky in this. And Rocky is a challenge for a thousand different reasons. Doesn't have a face.

• 19:23Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 19:24Josh Horowitz?

  E.T. had eyes.

• 19:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly, yeah.

• 19:26Speaker 04

  Yes, there are a lot of Muppets without much of a face.

• 19:29Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 19:30Speaker 02

  You mean like the Swedish chef just has the eyebrows or whatever, right?

• 19:32Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 19:33Speaker 02

  But he does have a mouth.

• 19:34Speaker 04

  He does have a mouth.

• 19:35Speaker 02

  Most of the Muppets have mouths.

• 19:37Speaker 04

  And yeah, and noses and Rocky has none of these things.

• 19:40Speaker 02

  It's true.

• 19:41Josh Horowitz?

  Do you go back and look at like E.T. and Empire and like kind of figure out how they did what they did?

• 19:46Speaker 02

  Interestingly, like our, so we, first person we called was Neil Scanlon from The Creature Shop. Who like did all, you know.

• 19:54Speaker 04

  He helped make Yoda.

• 19:55Speaker 02

  Exactly, so bit of a legend. And he was sort of saying like, if you look at it, Yoda is like not that expressive of a puppet. But because Mark Hamill like believed.

• 20:08Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 20:09Speaker 02

  Yoda was real and acted like he was real, then you, the audience believed it.

• 20:12Speaker 04

  And Frank Oz had something to do with it.

• 20:14Speaker 02

  Frank Oz is pretty great, for sure. But, but that was partially like, we knew that the secret weapon was going to be Ryan. And Ryan, Ryan believing and Ryan caring so that we care. But because we had. You know, our partnership with Neil and his team that we built this puppet and we designed it. It took us a year to get him into shape and get him right and put all this detail on his body and these carvings that had history and culture and things that we like that made sense to us, but we never explained to the audience.

• 20:45Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 20:46Speaker 02

  And then we had casting, we did auditions and chemistry reads with a bunch of puppeteers. And James Ortiz was just was blew everyone away. And his dynamic with Ryan, even in the chemistry read was like, oh, there it is. That's Rocky and Ryland. And so we knew we had like a scene partner.

• 21:09Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 21:10Speaker 02

  And we were able to shoot everything with James on set with the puppet team and the Rocketeers, the five people it takes to operate that thing. And we kind of tried to shoot as much in order as we could because, you know, at the beginning, you know, they still were trying to figure each other out. But then, as it went on, they were bonding because they were the only ones that were talking to each other.

• 21:35Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 21:36Speaker 02

  And they would, you know, go back and forth, improvise so many spontaneous moments that wouldn't have happened if he was just talking to a tennis ball on the stick.

• 21:45Josh Horowitz?

  Was he always going to also be voiced by James?

• 21:47Speaker 02

  No, that was not, we were just sort of like, we need to...

• 21:50Speaker 04

  It's like a part of their game, like who's gonna, who would we get?

• 21:53Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, it feels like...

• 21:53Speaker 04

  We could never really land on anything where we were like, that's obviously the answer. And then ultimately, it just, everybody fell in love with James. We started testing the movie and they were like, who's that voice? It's so good.

• 22:05Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 22:05Speaker 02

  And also the idea that were we gonna like bring somebody in to just copy what James already did? And the thing that we actually captured on the day, it seemed crazy. Like, he was Rocky.

• 22:14Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 22:15Speaker 02

  I mean, the last secret ingredient is Frame Store that did the animation that complimented the work that the puppet team did. It ended up being about 50/50 and their shots back to back were like, you, no one can tell which shot is animated, which shot is puppet because they mimicked the puppetry so perfectly that it was seamless.

• 22:37Speaker 04

  There's also like a real benefit. That James is to the audience is a stranger.

• 22:45Speaker 02

  Right.

• 22:45Speaker 04

  You know, that you're not going like.

• 22:46Speaker 02

  Oh, it's Danny DeVito.

• 22:47Speaker 04

  Oh, there he is.

• 22:48Josh Horowitz?

  Go Hanger.

• 22:49Speaker 04

  Tom Hanks again. You know, I don't, I don't know if you'd feel the same way about him.

• 22:54Josh Horowitz?

  Totally. Harder to get the music rights, Harry Styles or John Williams' Close Encounters? Like, what's the?

• 23:00Speaker 04

  Close Encounters, I literally, there was so little drama about it that I had to ask on the mix stage, like, we have cleared this, right?

• 23:07Josh Horowitz?

  Right, Close Encounters.

• 23:08Speaker 04

  I expected to get so many phone calls.

• 23:10Speaker 02

  It was a pitch that Steven Spielberg pitched to us right before we left for London. He was like, we were talking about the movie. He was like, so the alien speaks in song? We're like, yeah, he's like, you should have him do the Close Encounters theme. Wouldn't that be funny? And we were like, well, if you said it, pal.

• 23:24Speaker 04

  If you said it, then I'm calling that a green light.

• 23:26Speaker 02

  You say that it's okay.

• 23:27Speaker 04

  Verbal contracts are binding. I think I said to him in the meeting. So, anyway, yeah, so that was, so that was really easy. And sign of the times, the thing about it is we had to clear it in 24 hours.

• 23:41Josh Horowitz?

  Right, so this was not in the script?

• 23:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, not in the script.

• 23:43Josh Horowitz?

  And as you well know, this is one of the emotional high points of the film.

• 23:46Speaker 04

  It's incredible and it's embarrassing that it wasn't something that was initially designed to the movie. But it came out so great. And one of the reasons is that Sandra was like, I'll sing, but I get to pick the song.

• 24:00Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 24:01Speaker 04

  So the serendipity, it's not serendipity because she's a great artist with a great brain and she's a great filmmaker. So she picked a great song, but I can't take any credit for it.

• 24:10Speaker 02

  Right. We were just like, we were, when she said it was going to be the song, we're like, oh, that could be expensive. We're like, maybe we should, maybe we should think of a backup in case we can't clear that.

• 24:18Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 24:18Speaker 02

  But then we had her go do it because we were on this ship that we were shooting on and shooting in a real officer's bar on a real naval ship. And it was our last day there. And so we were like, you know, we gotta do it before the sun goes down. And, and she came in and we shot the reaction shots first and nobody knew what she was gonna do.

• 24:38Josh Horowitz?

  That's crazy.

• 24:38Speaker 02

  And you can see everyone's jaws on the floor because they're like, oh, my God.

• 24:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 24:43Speaker 02

  And like the poignancy of the thing. And like after that, before we even turned around to shoot her side, we're like, well, we're not gonna do a backup. That's for sure. That's in the movie. It doesn't, like, doesn't matter what it is.

• 24:53Josh Horowitz?

  That's amazing. Can you take credit for having directed Meryl Streep technically now?

• 24:58Speaker 02

  We, yeah.

• 24:59Speaker 04

  Technically?

• 25:00Speaker 02

  Not even technically.

• 25:01Speaker 04

  It's pretty sus, but. But yes, yes, of course.

• 25:05Josh Horowitz?

  Put it on the resume?

• 25:06Speaker 04

  Listen, if she wants to put us on her resume, that's just fine.

• 25:10Josh Horowitz?

  Is that literally a voice note she sends over?

• 25:11Speaker 04

  When you get the headshot of Meryl Streep on the back of us, all the directors she's worked with.

• 25:16Speaker 02

  We rejected Rocky Voice with her number one claim to fame.

• 25:18Speaker 04

  I guess let her in, I guess let her do it.

• 25:20Speaker 02

  She, the funny part, she was like, could you give me a line read? And I was like, I'm not gonna give Meryl Streep a line read.

• 25:26Speaker 04

  She asked us twice.

• 25:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, and we're like, how about you, would you do the line read? Which one of you is more of an actor? We're like, oh, neither one of us is gonna do that.

• 25:34Speaker 04

  That's like when the devil asks you, you know, like, just do, yeah, what's the big deal?

• 25:40Josh Horowitz?

  I think she was testing you.

• 25:42Speaker 04

  It was God testing us.

• 25:43Speaker 02

  You're like, right.

• 25:45Speaker 04

  And we passed.

• 25:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:46Josh Horowitz?

  All right, so some more general stuff, since we have the luxury of some time here. I took the liberty of looking at your IMDb and under trivia, it lists your favorite films, and they include Wizard of Oz, 2001, Harold and Maude, Star Wars, and then these, Popeye, Speed Racer, and Howard the Duck.

• 26:04Speaker 02

  Those are all film awards.

• 26:05Speaker 04

  Those are all my fault. Now, I'm gonna throw a few more on there, too.

• 26:09Josh Horowitz?

  Now, for the record, I, I just went on Brett Goldstein's podcast talking about Howard the Duck and my love for that, so I support you. We're not alone.

• 26:17Speaker 04

  Lea Thompson is attracted to the duck.

• 26:21Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 26:21Speaker 04

  That's in the story. That was in the screenplay.

• 26:24Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 26:24Speaker 04

  That's how good of an actor she is.

• 26:27Josh Horowitz?

  It's a very confusing scene.

• 26:28Speaker 04

  That's why she's a national treasure. Uh, yeah, I love that movie, I've seen it 50 times. I taped it off of HBO, uh, as a kid. I also had the Robert Altman Popeye taped off of HBO on a translucent, blue VHS, with like, the first two minutes, like, you know? Yeah, missing. I was like, oh, I was obsessed with Popeye as a kid, and then I loved the movie.

• 26:55Josh Horowitz?

  You know the famous story of the shooting of Popeye?

• 26:57Speaker 04

  That it's made of cocaine.

• 26:58Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, they shot it in Malta and everyone was on coke.

• 27:00Speaker 02

  By the way, that set is still up in Malta. That's like, that's a very cool, that's a very cool like waterfront set, yeah.

• 27:08Speaker 04

  Anyway, the movie is crazy.

• 27:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:12Speaker 04

  It's got the craziest like live action cartoon gags where like they turned, they made like a circle version of

• 27:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:21Speaker 04

  Of Robin Williams.

• 27:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:23Speaker 04

  He's got the big arms, like they nailed so many things and then did not nail so many others. And I don't know, I would say it informed my aesthetic and that I enjoy things that are, feel a little wrong.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  And then Speed Racer has been, um, I would say more appreciated. No, I think when it came out, it was, it was panned, but people like came around realizing that was like a Skittles kaleidoscope of like rainbow insanity into your eyeballs.

• 27:55Speaker 04

  Punk rock swing to follow up The Matrix with that movie. I was like, these folks are the best.

• 28:03Josh Horowitz?

  Also frankly, they, I'm not accusing them, but they, it also feels like a film that was done on coke. So that's the, that's the

• 28:09Speaker 04

  And I don't think it was. I think that's just the, that's what they're, they're on, a vibe that is like, we're gonna, you think we're gonna do this, we're gonna do the opposite, and we're gonna always try to freak you out every movie that we make. And I love that. Fun fact about that movie, we're making Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs and going crazy.

• 28:27Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 28:27Speaker 04

  And we're on, and all of our internet is on a, is on the Sony ImageWorks Intranet. So, and they, they would have a little window in the upper left corner of the, whatever frame was being rendered at that exact moment.

• 28:46Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 28:46Speaker 04

  In the, in like the server farm that was like on the, on the fifth floor before it was all in on like a cloud. And so we were, we would be like rewriting at one in the morning and I'll be like, Chris, let's, let's see what they're up to. And these little postage stamps of that movie would keep us going.

• 29:03Josh Horowitz?

  Just John Goodman like.

• 29:05Speaker 04

  Just like seeing whatever cool wild stuff they were up to and be like, all right, the Wachowskis, like, challenge accepted.

• 29:20Speaker 05

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• 29:49Speaker 07

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• 30:33Speaker 07

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• 30:51Josh Horowitz?

  In the wake of 21 and 22 Jump Street, were you asked to reboot and reinvent every like 80s and 90s TV show?

• 30:57Speaker 02

  I will say there was a time, and the time is not fully over yet, where people are like, here's a bad idea for a movie, here's a weird product that you like...

• 31:06Speaker 04

  Connect Four.

• 31:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. You're like, you can't even, it's like, this isn't one, like, Velveeta shells and cheese.

• 31:14Speaker 04

  You know the magnet guy, the mustache magnet thing from the airport?

• 31:19Speaker 02

  Right.

• 31:20Speaker 04

  That, we have that.

• 31:21Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah, after the Lego movie and the Jump Streets, it was sort of like, oh, these guys will turn a bad idea into a good movie and...

• 31:28Josh Horowitz?

  You went down the greatest American hero route.

• 31:31Speaker 02

  We did.

• 31:31Josh Horowitz?

  On TV.

• 31:31Speaker 02

  I dispute that being a bad idea.

• 31:34Speaker 04

  No, that's a good idea.

• 31:35Josh Horowitz?

  Favorite show growing.

• 31:36Speaker 04

  And that was gonna be with Rick Farmy, and he had a great take.

• 31:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:40Speaker 04

  He was, I wanna make it about a garbage man in Inglewood. Against the backdrop of the gentrifying Inglewood. So it's about this garbage man and everything around him is starting to look really nice. And he's the one guy who's left out. It was a brilliant take.

• 31:53Josh Horowitz?

  That time still can come. I really hope it does. But no, no, no Knight Rider, no Riptide, no Scarecrow, Mrs. King, no Manimal.

• 32:01Speaker 02

  No.

• 32:01Speaker 04

  No, Manimal was pitched.

• 32:04Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 32:05Josh Horowitz?

  I knew I went for a long.

• 32:06Speaker 02

  There we go.

• 32:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, you could play a game where we go, yes, no.

• 32:11Speaker 02

  Were you pitched this?

• 32:12Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 32:14Josh Horowitz?

  I have so many reasons to thank you. One of them is, I remember visiting the 22 Jump Street set. That was the first time I met Dakota Johnson.

• 32:20Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 32:20Josh Horowitz?

  She was.

• 32:21Speaker 02

  She took off. She's all right.

• 32:22Speaker 04

  She's doing all right.

• 32:23Josh Horowitz?

  But I, you guys clearly knew, I knew on set too. Like, I met her, I'm like, okay.

• 32:27Speaker 02

  She's going places.

• 32:28Speaker 04

  She's a movie star.

• 32:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, she popped.

• 32:30Speaker 04

  Obviously. And she's really funny.

• 32:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:33Speaker 04

  And that's the thing that I like seeing from her in stuff, that there's like, like there's a slyness of like, I'm not sure what this person thinks of me.

• 32:43Josh Horowitz?

  Right, right, totally.

• 32:44Speaker 04

  She thinks I'm a dork, I'm pretty sure. She doesn't want to outright say it.

• 32:52Speaker 04

  And there's a, anyway, she's got amazing, she's amazingly talented person. I'm fired up for what's next.

• 32:57Josh Horowitz?

  We've talked, we talked years ago about the famous Men in Black, Jump Street crossover that never happened. Were all of them on board? Was, it was Jonah Channing? Was it also Will and Tommy Lee? Were they in this?

• 33:08Speaker 04

  No. That I don't know.

• 33:09Speaker 02

  They were, they were, as it was in the script, they were some very small parts.

• 33:14Josh Horowitz?

  I see.

• 33:15Speaker 04

  That was more of like, I hope, I like, cross your fingers, maybe they'll do it.

• 33:19Josh Horowitz?

  Right. Tommy Lee Jones, that would have been an interesting conversation to get there.

• 33:21Speaker 02

  Indeed.

• 33:23Speaker 04

  I mean, I love that guy. Fun fact, I went to college with my Uncle Carter.

• 33:29Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 33:30Josh Horowitz?

  There it is.

• 33:30Speaker 04

  There you go.

• 33:31Speaker 02

  You had an in, we got an in.

• 33:32Speaker 04

  That's it.

• 33:33Josh Horowitz?

  You do a drinking game every time Uncle Carter comes in.

• 33:35Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 33:36Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 33:37Josh Horowitz?

  Are you involved at all in Jump Street now in terms of there were so many different iterations ideas for new Jump Street movies? Is that still crossing your desk at all?

• 33:45Speaker 02

  Every now and again, you know, someone from the gang is like, what about this version? Should we re-get this thing going? There's a bunch of different versions that were all like, had something special about them, but you know, it was hard to get.

• 33:58Speaker 04

  It's hard to have everyone in the same.

• 34:01Speaker 02

  The same city, in the same time.

• 34:04Speaker 04

  Available at the same time, you know? And like Jonah's directing movies and like, Chan just like, won the Oscars.

• 34:12Josh Horowitz?

  He was so funny. Oh my god, just another reminder, he's got the best comic timing on the planet.

• 34:16Speaker 02

  He's so great. By the way, I really liked Roof Man, I thought it was a delight.

• 34:19Josh Horowitz?

  Roof Man's great. Your favorite subject, we always love talking about solo. I'm joking, don't worry.

• 34:24Speaker 04

  We always love talking about.

• 34:26Speaker 02

  We love it, it's like, can't get me to stop.

• 34:28Josh Horowitz?

  One thing I will say, so Alden, right now, he's doing a play here in New York, I'm gonna see it very soon.

• 34:32Speaker 02

  He's a great theater guy, he does a lot of great things. He like bought this building in eastern Los Angeles, it's like a playhouse and it's super cool and he like, puts on like stuff, he's very, he's a creative soul.

• 34:43Josh Horowitz?

  Do you, I don't know if you feel comfortable saying this, but we know a lot of the actors that were up for that role, like was there a close second? Was there like, was Logan Werman, Jack Rayner, like who was like really on your mind?

• 34:55Speaker 04

  Name names, there were definitely close seconds and we loved all the people who tested, they were all great, you know? And it wasn't, it was, you know, it was, God bless them for submitting themselves to that process. But, and I'm just, you know, we did get to meet a lot of really talented actors.

• 35:17Josh Horowitz?

  It's true. It feels like every young actor of like that age like came in.

• 35:20Speaker 02

  That's true. For both Han and Lando, we like, met everybody.

• 35:24Speaker 04

  It was, but it's like, the encouraging thing is like, there's so many talented people who had so much specificity in like, who they, how they present, and it's really fun to watch folks now, like, lead movies that you go like, yeah, I saw that, he had that thing, for sure.

• 35:42Josh Horowitz?

  At this point, would you consider doing a Star Wars movie? Or are the emotional wounds too, too deep at this point?

• 35:47Speaker 04

  I wouldn't say the emotional wounds are too deep. It's just that like, we're, you know, at this precise moment, we're releasing a movie in theaters that's like, original.

• 35:56Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 35:57Speaker 04

  And one of the things that's on, you know, one of the opportunities that presents itself when you're not, you know, on the hook for making like, three Han Solo sequels, you know, is that you, we have the opportunity to create the, you know, the franchises of the future.

• 36:16Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 36:17Speaker 04

  Or, or like, or, or, you know, just an original movie that delivers the way, um, you know, the movies we grew up with delivered.

• 36:25Josh Horowitz?

  So you're announcing the Project Hail Mary sequel today?

• 36:27Speaker 04

  Yes, no. Absolutely not, but, but just, but like, we're on a mission to try to, like, like, always to try to find the most original thing we can get out there, you know?

• 36:38Josh Horowitz?

  Have you ever had the Tom Cruise meeting? Has Tom come calling?

• 36:41Speaker 02

  We have.

• 36:42Speaker 04

  In fact, we have not, well, we've met.

• 36:44Speaker 02

  We've met a handful of times.

• 36:45Speaker 04

  He was on a motorcycle.

• 36:47Speaker 02

  The first time.

• 36:48Speaker 04

  The first time I met him, and I was like, and after five seconds, I was like, I will do anything you ask.

• 36:55Speaker 02

  You like, got swooped in by like, the magnetism or something, his magic power.

• 37:00Josh Horowitz?

  He was just at Randy's Donuts, and he just like, scooted by?

• 37:03Speaker 04

  We were on the studio lot, like, in a scene right out of Pee Wee's Big Adventure.

• 37:07Speaker 02

  Right. He like, like, parks the motorcycle, he's in like, a Ducati, like, jacket, and a helmet, take off the helmet, and it's like, Tom Cruise, he was like, hey, how's it going? We're like, oh, hey, how's, how are you?

• 37:17Speaker 04

  That's, that's how you say it. In my mind, he rode the motors, a Ducati, up the steps of the Thalberg Building, and into the lobby.

• 37:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:26Speaker 04

  Hit through the kicks down, down, down, and...

• 37:29Speaker 02

  Slipped off of the bike.

• 37:30Speaker 04

  No, and, yeah, and then stuck his hand out, gave me the firmest handshake of my life.

• 37:34Josh Horowitz?

  No, it, it totally tracks. I, I got a chance, I hosted the Top Gun Maverick premiere.

• 37:38Speaker 02

  How fun.

• 37:38Josh Horowitz?

  He arrived on a heli, in a helicopter.

• 37:40Speaker 04

  Of course he did.

• 37:41Josh Horowitz?

  On an aircraft carrier.

• 37:42Speaker 04

  Of course he did.

• 37:42Josh Horowitz?

  And walked over to me.

• 37:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:44Speaker 04

  And then, were you on an aircraft carrier during?

• 37:46Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, during the ego.

• 37:47Speaker 04

  Incredible.

• 37:48Josh Horowitz?

  But then Gosling just told me.

• 37:49Speaker 04

  The USS Abraham Lincoln.

• 37:51Josh Horowitz?

  Maybe, I can't remember.

• 37:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 37:52Josh Horowitz?

  Told me a very similar story in, on the set of Star Wars. He arrived in a helicopter on set, just out of nowhere. That's just what he does.

• 37:59Speaker 04

  That's what he does. He just rolls up.

• 38:00Speaker 02

  Parachutes in, and jet packs off.

• 38:04Speaker 04

  Let's be honest, at that, his level of fame, he cannot be riding in a commercial helicopter.

• 38:11Speaker 04

  It's gotta be a charter. Yeah, no, he, he, he did that at the Olympics?

• 38:16Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 38:17Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah. Listen. Do you know the famous story about

• 38:23Speaker 04

  the Pearl Harbor premiere?

• 38:25Josh Horowitz?

  No, tell me.

• 38:26Speaker 04

  Which party took place on an aircraft carrier?

• 38:29Josh Horowitz?

  Rings a bell, okay.

• 38:30Speaker 04

  The, this was told to us by an anonymous Sound mixer. Sound mixer. Who said that they were, there's a scene in that movie where the

• 38:44Speaker 04

  where there's an elevator that takes the planes up to the tarmac.

• 38:48Josh Horowitz?

  Sure.

• 38:48Speaker 04

  From underneath, from the hull of the ship. And they were listening to it and Michael said

• 38:56Speaker 04

  more passionately than I'm going to say now. He's like, you guys have no fucking idea what an aircraft carrier sounds like. Have any of you been on an aircraft carrier? No, no, no, no, no. Well, it doesn't sound like that. The elevator sounds like

• 39:16Speaker 04

  Right. Sphincter rattles. You're just, your entire body, you think it's gonna fall apart. So they fix it up and they, da, da, da, and it sounds like real macho. And he's like, that's what it sounds like on a goddamn air. Anyway. This is a famous story. They, the, the Yeah, the party after the screening of the premiere is on the aircraft carrier. And the way you load it on, you ride the elevator up to the tarmac. And so the whole sound team gets on and pushes the button.

• 39:54Speaker 04

  And Michael Bay just laughs.

• 39:56Josh Horowitz?

  You guys should be more Michael Bay, I should say. I want more.

• 40:01Speaker 04

  I should say, I want to clarify, his, we share an editor, Michael Bay, who speaks very highly of him, and he's a very loyal and talented, great filmmaker. I don't want to suggest that he's like screaming.

• 40:12Josh Horowitz?

  No, no, he did yell at me once to get out of a shot on the set of Transformers.

• 40:15Speaker 04

  And I'm sure you hustled.

• 40:16Josh Horowitz?

  I did. It felt like a badge of honor.

• 40:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

• 40:20Josh Horowitz?

  Uh, let's talk Spider-verse. Sadly, you guys have set the bar extremely high for yourselves.

• 40:24Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 40:25Josh Horowitz?

  Um, how are we feeling about the third one?

• 40:27Speaker 02

  We're feeling good.

• 40:28Josh Horowitz?

  You guys should never have announced release dates, by the way.

• 40:30Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, that wasn't up to us.

• 40:34Speaker 04

  Every studio loves to announce early date. I don't know why.

• 40:38Speaker 02

  It was up to us, we would never.

• 40:40Speaker 04

  If it was up to us, we would never do such a thing.

• 40:41Speaker 02

  But we are, we are still on schedule for next June. It's going great. Literally, we had our, uh, we set up our editorial for this movie in the same building as Spider-verse, so that we could like have mornings over there and then, and then edit all day in, uh, on this film. And like the day we finish this movie on the color, the next day we're back in the offices. And so we'll be living there for the next year and, uh, but it's going really well. Uh, the story's coming along great. The animation is beautiful and the...

• 41:13Speaker 04

  We've ported some interesting stuff over from Hail Mary to there.

• 41:17Speaker 02

  That digital, uh, pre-shoot that we did with Greg? We are doing, uh, we're doing that methodology for the camera work, uh, with, uh, DP Alice Brooks. And she's been doing an amazing job and it's been just sort of revolutionizing how, uh, how we can get the camera work to be like, uh, super inventive and super like, natural feeling. And, uh, and it's been, it's been awesome.

• 41:47Josh Horowitz?

  And from an emotional perspective, because again, you know, the, the films feel kinetic and unlike anything, but it's really about Miles and his family, that why it works.

• 41:56Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 41:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, like all the zipping, flying around doesn't mean anything to the audience without the...

• 42:04Speaker 04

  Scenes of just two people in rooms talking.

• 42:06Josh Horowitz?

  So how emotionally, how is this gonna wreck me?

• 42:09Speaker 02

  This is the most emotional of the three movies.

• 42:12Speaker 04

  And it's, and look, and the thing that, like Miles' superpower is that family.

• 42:16Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 42:17Speaker 04

  And that's like the franchise of Superpower. They are indestructible in front of the audience. And so we wanted to make the final movie of these three about that.

• 42:30Josh Horowitz?

  It is the final movie of the three. So like, I mean, is there, I mean,

• 42:33Speaker 02

  The end of the trilogy.

• 42:34Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, it's the end of the trilogy, but like, obviously you have other things that have been in development, have been announced at different stages. Is there still like a female-led, kind of like Spider Gwen movie, a Spider Punk movie? Like, are those movies moving?

• 42:46Speaker 02

  All these things are, you know,

• 42:48Speaker 04

  Nothing's,

• 42:49Speaker 02

  Nothing, yeah.

• 42:50Speaker 04

  Nothing's dead.

• 42:51Speaker 02

  Right. I don't think they're in the air, but,

• 42:53Speaker 04

  No, everything, no, those things are moving.

• 42:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, but this, like, the Miles trilogy is, you know, this is like the last of that, of this Spider-verse stories.

• 43:06Josh Horowitz?

  Do you feel confident, like, one or more of those things that have been announced or not been announced, are gonna come to fruition in terms of the animated space?

• 43:12Speaker 02

  I mean, they, they, uh, there's a lot of interest.

• 43:16Speaker 04

  They have good auspices, and there's a lot of interest.

• 43:19Josh Horowitz?

  One would think.

• 43:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, and there's very talented people, you know, that will be a part of it.

• 43:25Josh Horowitz?

  How's Spider Noir? I'm very excited for.

• 43:27Speaker 02

  It's a delight. You're gonna, have you seen any of it yet?

• 43:29Speaker 04

  Oh, it's a treat.

• 43:32Speaker 02

  It's fun.

• 43:33Speaker 04

  It's like a, it's a, you know, slightly separate sort of universe from the Spider-verse movies, but it is, uh, but Nick, he had this great idea, which is, I want to play him like a spider pretending to be a person.

• 43:50Speaker 02

  Right, and he does like,

• 43:51Speaker 04

  That's why he's so brilliant.

• 43:53Speaker 02

  It's so Nick Cage, and then Orin, who like, you know, show ran the thing, had this, like, he's so passionate about Noir, and like, not just the aesthetic trappings of Noir, but actual understanding the way that Noir stories are told.

• 44:09Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 44:10Speaker 02

  And he like has such a love for the genre that, and every director that came in was like, oh my god, I get to play with all this stuff I've always wanted to do, and have it be a way to be artistically expressive, while doing like a crazy Nicolas Cage superhero art film. It's like, it's nuts.

• 44:28Josh Horowitz?

  I love it. Have you guys ever entertained or been offered a live-action Spider-Man film?

• 44:34Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 44:39Josh Horowitz?

  Which one? Like the actual Spider-Man or one of those Sony spinoffs?

• 44:44Speaker 02

  You know.

• 44:45Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 44:45Speaker 02

  You know.

• 44:46Josh Horowitz?

  Did you come close? Was it a serious consideration or did it just not?

• 44:51Speaker 02

  As you know, we love Spider-Man. We're fans of the character and the world.

• 44:56Josh Horowitz?

  Okay.

• 44:57Speaker 02

  We'll leave it at that.

• 44:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 44:59Josh Horowitz?

  In the future, are you spidered out? Do you feel like a live-action Spider-Man at some point could be of interest to them?

• 45:04Speaker 04

  I mean, let's just get that. Let's just get this thing.

• 45:06Josh Horowitz?

  Josh, I just need to...

• 45:08Speaker 04

  No, but I mean like...

• 45:09Speaker 02

  We've got a whole Spider-verse to finish.

• 45:11Josh Horowitz?

  I got you.

• 45:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:12Speaker 02

  We're halfway through this thing.

• 45:14Speaker 04

  I would say I would long to have the headspace available to think of yet another one of those darn things.

• 45:23Josh Horowitz?

  Way back when, on the DC side of things, how close did Flash come to happening? Did you have a full script? Was that just a story?

• 45:29Speaker 02

  We had a very elaborate treatment that we really liked.

• 45:35Speaker 04

  It was pretty different than what...

• 45:36Speaker 02

  Ended up.

• 45:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:38Josh Horowitz?

  Can you say what your take on Flash was?

• 45:40Speaker 02

  I mean, I kinda wanna...

• 45:43Speaker 04

  It's a good idea that I am afraid to not be able to use some day. That's all I would say.

• 45:52Josh Horowitz?

  James Gunn says, "Hey, guys, I know you have so much time for a camera app."

• 45:57Speaker 02

  As you know, we were just talking about telling original stories.

• 46:01Josh Horowitz?

  I know, I know. But you were obviously passionate about that one.

• 46:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, listen. We like this stuff. You know, we get intrigued by things that are intriguing.

• 46:09Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, okay. Here's our quote.

• 46:11Speaker 04

  I love, you know, we love the movie that the Musketi's made.

• 46:14Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 46:17Josh Horowitz?

  Okay, we're gonna end with this. Sometimes I do the profoundly random questions, but for you guys, I'm gonna do the movie matrix questionnaire.

• 46:22Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 46:23Josh Horowitz?

  Because you guys have good taste.

• 46:24Speaker 04

  All right, I'm gonna... Can I have to engage my core for this?

• 46:28Josh Horowitz?

  Buckle up.

• 46:29Speaker 02

  Get ready.

• 46:31Josh Horowitz?

  Are you an Alien or Aliens person?

• 46:33Speaker 02

  Hmm, I'm an Aliens person personally.

• 46:36Speaker 04

  I like them both.

• 46:38Speaker 02

  They're both great for different reasons. We looked at Alien a lot with Greg, our cinematographer, about like...

• 46:47Speaker 04

  The photography.

• 46:47Speaker 02

  The photography in it because it was really like natural and like messy and lived in.

• 46:52Josh Horowitz?

  Yep.

• 46:53Speaker 04

  But only one of those movies has Vasquez.

• 46:56Speaker 02

  That's right. I've seen that movie more and more times in a theater, Aliens, than I have seen Alien. I saw it, you know, we went with Edgar. Did you go to that in London?

• 47:07Speaker 04

  I think I missed that one. But is that the one that, did you ever see the one with the added scene? With like, with the kind of the volume, proto-volume, like, video wall gag in it?

• 47:19Speaker 02

  No. Anyway.

• 47:20Speaker 04

  I'll start too.

• 47:21Speaker 02

  But like, there's some really good filmmaking and just like setups and payoffs in that movie there.

• 47:26Speaker 04

  I'll tell you what's like really smart about that movie, like, I'm the first person to say it.

• 47:31Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah, it's like, why Aliens is a good movie?

• 47:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, and like, shockingly.

• 47:34Speaker 02

  Little-known film.

• 47:35Speaker 04

  But like, I think that like, Cameron is known as like a, like a technical virtuoso, right? He's like, made started as a model maker, and like, he can do every job on set. But like, the emotional stakes of these movies are so clear and so like visceral, right? Like, it's, like, it starts with Ribley waking up and realizes like, a lot of her life has passed. And then she like, meets a little girl who's lost her family and she has a chance to make one of her own. And that's like, amazing.

• 48:09Josh Horowitz?

  He's also the master of like exposition, of like, laying down like, the payoff in the third act.

• 48:15Speaker 02

  Right, like, he's set up like the robot suits just like casually at the beginning and then, "Oh, guess what? Here it comes."

• 48:20Speaker 04

  He's a fucking smart filmmaker.

• 48:22Speaker 02

  He's very good.

• 48:22Speaker 04

  It's smart screenwriter.

• 48:24Speaker 02

  He knows a thing or two.

• 48:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 48:26Josh Horowitz?

  Uh, best comic book movie of all time. You can exclude your own.

• 48:29Speaker 02

  Spider-Man 2? Would be my first guess. Um, I also liked, um...

• 48:35Speaker 04

  Spider-Man 2.

• 48:37Speaker 02

  Spider-Man 2.

• 48:37Speaker 04

  I think you have to say.

• 48:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:39Speaker 04

  I think, um, I do, uh, there's a lot, I have a lot of cheeky answers.

• 48:46Speaker 02

  I thought Mangled was good, really good.

• 48:49Speaker 04

  Guys, this is staring us right in the face.

• 48:52Josh Horowitz?

  Howard the Duck?

• 48:52Speaker 04

  Howard the Duck!

• 48:55Josh Horowitz?

  You're better than that.

• 48:56Speaker 02

  Come now, come now.

• 48:58Speaker 04

  No, you know, the Dick Donner Superman. And it's, and it's kind of like, as, and thought, and when you think of them also as like, a one-two, like, movie with a several-year intermission and a, and a bonus Richard Lester footage. Like, I, I do have a real soft spot for those pictures.

• 49:17Josh Horowitz?

  That's James Bond movie of all time?

• 49:24Speaker 04

  It's like how, but measured by what?

• 49:26Speaker 02

  By what? Yeah, exactly.

• 49:27Speaker 04

  You know? Measured by, um, what?

• 49:33Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 49:33Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 49:34Speaker 02

  So you can go Dr. No as, you know, like the thing that set up everything. And is, I watched it somewhat recently and it holds up pretty darn well, I have to say.

• 49:46Speaker 02

  You could say, um, I guess Casino Royale, that's the, that's the first Daniel Craig one, right?

• 49:54Speaker 04

  People either go Casino or Skyfall. I go Casino.

• 49:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think Casino Royale, cause it just sort of introduced him as like a new version of Bond and it had like, the, the intensity of it was like, was pretty great.

• 50:05Speaker 04

  There's one shot in that movie where he's like on a balcony or something and he's assessing a threat. And his eyes move around like he's a velociraptor. And I was like, oh, this is the smartest fucking move I've ever seen. He's the most like perfect suit, got the watch, like shaking nuts stirred. And when the shit goes down, he's an animal.

• 50:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:31Speaker 04

  And I was like, you guys, very smart. Amy Pascal ran the studio and Hannah Mangala, very, very instrumental in that picture.

• 50:40Josh Horowitz?

  A couple more scariest movie of all time?

• 50:42Speaker 02

  Scariest movie of all time?

• 50:48Speaker 02

  That's tricky.

• 50:49Josh Horowitz?

  The basic but real one for me is Exorcist. I mean, but you can't go wrong with that.

• 50:53Speaker 02

  Like when I was a kid, I, the one that gave me nightmares was Poltergeist, but I, I watched it again. I wouldn't put it as the scariest movie of all time, but it was scary for me at the time. I have like the recent one.

• 51:05Speaker 04

  I'm trying to think of like if I've, like a feeling of terror.

• 51:08Speaker 02

  Like there's like a, I would say that, uh, like Hereditary, Barbarian, those were both like stuck with me for a while afterwards. Like and more like disturbing and, and less like jump scary, you know?

• 51:21Speaker 04

  Well, I'll say this, uh, just this is what the data prove. I went to see The Others, that's the Spanish filmmaker with it, Nicole Kidman. And I went, and I went, what I thought was a date. But the person, uh, she brought another guy.

• 51:41Speaker 02

  Oh my.

• 51:42Speaker 04

  So it was the three of us.

• 51:44Josh Horowitz?

  What?

• 51:44Speaker 04

  She brought a guy, she brought a plus one to the date.

• 51:47Josh Horowitz?

  Oh no.

• 51:48Speaker 04

  And so I wound up sitting next to the guy.

• 51:52Speaker 02

  Amazing, wow, you really got even, you didn't even get on the other side.

• 51:56Speaker 04

  And then, there, there was some scare in the movie.

• 52:00Josh Horowitz?

  Oh no.

• 52:00Speaker 04

  That made me go, ah!

• 52:04Speaker 02

  And grab his, uh...

• 52:05Speaker 04

  Grab his arm.

• 52:07Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 52:08Josh Horowitz?

  Side of the story.

• 52:08Speaker 04

  So to me, that's the scariest movie I've ever seen.

• 52:12Speaker 02

  That's so funny.

• 52:14Josh Horowitz?

  It's horrifying. Um, funniest movie ever made?

• 52:18Speaker 02

  Mmm.

• 52:19Speaker 04

  Ooh, that's unfair.

• 52:22Josh Horowitz?

  These are all unfair.

• 52:23Speaker 04

  That's unfair. Um...

• 52:28Speaker 04

  The first two thirds of The Jerk.

• 52:31Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 52:31Speaker 04

  Okay?

• 52:31Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, I'd say The Jerk is definitely...

• 52:34Josh Horowitz?

  It's up there.

• 52:34Speaker 04

  For me personally, like, the movie that I was like, I can't believe, I've never laughed harder.

• 52:41Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 52:41Speaker 04

  Da-da-da-da, but I'm trying to think of those.

• 52:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think The Jerk, that's, that's it.

• 52:45Speaker 04

  That made me lose control.

• 52:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:47Speaker 04

  You know, when he called the dog shithead.

• 52:51Speaker 02

  Right. There's the, all I need is this paddle game scene.

• 52:56Speaker 04

  The, the line that still cracks me up, if I get it right, is about, like, cause I always get it mixed up.

• 53:01Speaker 02

  The cup of pizza place?

• 53:02Speaker 04

  This is from the old, this is from the old cup of pizza place. Yeah, this is from the old pizza in the cup place. I can't remember which one that he's, that there are, the idea that there are two

• 53:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 53:12Speaker 04

  competing cup of pizza places.

• 53:15Speaker 02

  Bernadette Peters pulling a trombone.

• 53:16Speaker 04

  And then he likes the one that's not around anymore, is like, muah!

• 53:21Josh Horowitz?

  Not that Ryan needed more credit with me, but we, we were kicking out a better mutual of the real genius.

• 53:25Speaker 02

  Oh, love real genius.

• 53:26Speaker 04

  Yes, well, we spent a lot of time thinking about that for this movie. It was like, how can Ryan, handsome man, play a genius scientist? We're like, oh wait, foul!

• 53:37Josh Horowitz?

  The handsomest man ever.

• 53:38Speaker 04

  The handsomest man ever, he did it, and what's a way that, like, a playful, um, impish way that Ryan can, can, can, can bring to this? You know? So yeah, we talked a lot about that.

• 53:50Josh Horowitz?

  Finally, most importantly, what's your go-to movie theater snack? What do you recommend, folks?

• 53:54Speaker 02

  Nerds Gummy Clusters.

• 53:55Speaker 04

  Nerds Gummy Clusters has like leapfrogged.

• 53:59Speaker 02

  I love the other ones.

• 54:00Speaker 04

  The technology.

• 54:01Speaker 02

  I love, I grew up with Red Vines.

• 54:04Josh Horowitz?

  I love Red Vines.

• 54:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, but Nerds Gummy, because it's relatively recent in the candy sphere, but taking off.

• 54:10Speaker 04

  It's an innovation.

• 54:11Josh Horowitz?

  So what is it? It's, I know a nerd, I know a gummy.

• 54:13Speaker 04

  It's nerds, we all grew up with nerds, okay?

• 54:15Speaker 02

  And gummies.

• 54:16Speaker 04

  But guess what? No more plastic box, I mean cardboard box. That just gets wetter and wetter as you.

• 54:22Speaker 02

  So basically, it's like a little gummy nugget with a bunch of different nerds all around it.

• 54:27Josh Horowitz?

  Yes.

• 54:27Speaker 02

  So it's, the crazy thing is that long-distance runners use that. Instead of that gel packs to like give them a carbo load, they can keep a couple Nerds Gummy Clusters in their pocket and pop them while they're running to keep going.

• 54:41Josh Horowitz?

  What if you are not running a marathon or at all?

• 54:43Speaker 02

  See, this is the thing when you're like, sometimes watching a movie is like a marathon.

• 54:48Speaker 04

  I, Chris told me this, and it just gave me a permission structure to eat as many of these damn things as, it's my favorite food.

• 54:58Josh Horowitz?

  I was gonna say, congrats on being angel investors in Nerds Gummy Clusters.

• 55:01Speaker 04

  It's my favorite food.

• 55:02Speaker 02

  Please, please buy, please buy.

• 55:04Speaker 04

  Here's the other thing, we're always asking ourselves, what should I have?

• 55:10Josh Horowitz?

  Right.

• 55:11Speaker 04

  Nerds or?

• 55:13Speaker 02

  Gummies.

• 55:13Speaker 04

  Gummies.

• 55:14Speaker 02

  Why not have both?

• 55:15Speaker 04

  Why not have, yeah, this solves that problem for you.

• 55:19Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah.

• 55:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't know, I can't, if I see, if they enter my field of vision, I can't not eat that. As a matter of fact, when we started the press tour for this, at our junket, the publicist got wind of it and brought two.

• 55:37Speaker 02

  Giant bag.

• 55:38Speaker 04

  Giant, family-sized bags.

• 55:41Speaker 02

  Of Nerds Gummy Clusters.

• 55:42Speaker 04

  It's so upsetting that there is a family-sized bag. I pity the family.

• 55:47Josh Horowitz?

  Yeah. Gosh, you're gonna go into a diabetic coma right after a press tour.

• 55:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's good, yeah.

• 55:53Josh Horowitz?

  Well, we promoted not only Project Hail Mary, but Nerds Gummy Clusters.

• 55:57Speaker 04

  Put it in a long line of stuff that we've promoted in our movies with nothing, nothing in return. Cool Ranch Doritos. This tour has mostly been about nerds gummy clusters.

• 56:08Speaker 02

  There's sour Skittles in this movie.

• 56:10Speaker 04

  Sour Skittles.

• 56:11Speaker 02

  They never sent us anything.

• 56:14Speaker 04

  We're like the reverse Robin Hood.

• 56:18Speaker 04

  We give money to companies in exchange for nothing.

• 56:21Speaker 02

  These massive corporations.

• 56:23Josh Horowitz?

  And don't forget, Howard the Duck is probably on Roku or Prime or something.

• 56:26Speaker 02

  Exactly, somebody.

• 56:27Speaker 04

  Yes, I did, by the way, see, we got to go to the Lucasfilm archives as part of our Star Wars adventure. And I made a beeline for the Howard the Duck section.

• 56:41Josh Horowitz?

  You were the only person that ever was like.

• 56:42Speaker 04

  They have a duet decimal.

• 56:43Speaker 02

  They're like, oh, you're gonna take the top off of you.

• 56:44Speaker 04

  Go through the card catalog and I was like, aha. And then to go and see the Howard the Duck that's rotting with one robot eye come out and just moths have torn his skin apart. It's pretty good. It was pretty good.

• 57:01Speaker 02

  Anyway, there you go.

• 57:02Josh Horowitz?

  We'll end it there. Congratulations, guys.

• 57:04Speaker 02

  What better place to end? Project Hail Mary.

• 57:07Speaker 04

  You know what his problem was? Didn't eat enough nerds gummy clusters.

• 57:10Speaker 02

  There you go, I guess.

• 57:11Speaker 04

  Would have kept him alive.

• 57:12Josh Horowitz?

  Before his time. Congratulations on the film, guys. Good to see you both.

• 57:15Speaker 04

  What an informative interview. I'm so sorry, John. You asked us properly incisive questions.

• 57:21Josh Horowitz?

  And beginning, and then we went off the rails.

• 57:23Speaker 04

  And then we just started, and then, I don't know why, you got some good ones.

• 57:26Josh Horowitz?

  I think so.

• 57:28Speaker 04

  You know what an aircraft carrier elevator sounds like, finally?

• 57:31Speaker 02

  Mmm. Listen.

• 57:36Josh Horowitz?

  We all need a map.

• 57:36Speaker 02

  We'll see you at the next.

• 57:37Josh Horowitz?

  See you at the premiere tomorrow.

• 57:39Speaker 04

  Oh, my God, I'm excited.

• 57:42Speaker 07

  And so ends another edition of Happy, Sad, Confused. Remember to review, rate, and subscribe to this show on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm a big podcast person. I'm Daisy Ridley, and I definitely wasn't pressured to do this by Josh.

• 58:01Speaker 05

  Hey, I'm Ashley, host of Crime Salad. And every week, my husband Ricky joins me as my partner in crime. We know the true crime space is crowded, so we skip the loud, bubbly small talk and get straight to the facts of the most gripping cases. If you want to see what we're all about, check out our recent two-parter deep dive, She Saved Him: Can You Save Her? Covering the baffling Rebecca Zahau case. If you want a true crime podcast that feels authentic and respects the details, come check us out. Search Crime Salad wherever you get your podcasts.