Revisited: Why Awkward Is Awesome with psychologist Ty Tashiro

A Bit of Optimism is on hiatus this week, so we’re revisiting one of our favorite conversations! In this episode, Simon talks with psychologist Ty Tashiro about social awkwardness and why being awkward can actually be a superpower. ***** Awkwardness gets a bad rap. But being awkward is often an indicator that someone has extraordinary. Psychologist and author Ty Tashiro has spent a great deal of time studying (and living!) social awkwardness. He's fascinated by how the same traits that cause us social embarrassment can also drive exceptional accomplishment. As a fellow awkward person, I was delighted to sit down with Ty and discuss the competitive advantages of social awkwardness, and how sometimes what society labels a weakness turns out to be our greatest strength. This...is A Bit of Optimism. For more on Ty and his work check out: his book, AWKWARD: The Science of Why We're Socially Awkward and Why That's Awesome tytashiro.com

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Simon Sinek?

  There are all different kinds of people in this world. Some are socially fluent. They can walk into a room. They can make friends. They can meet people. And there are others who are, well, awkward. I am one of those awkward ones, which is why I was so excited to talk to Tai Tashiro. He's a psychologist who studies social awkwardness. In fact, he wrote a whole book about it. It's called Awkward: The Science of Why We're Socially Awkward and Why That's Awesome. And it turns out, there are actually some huge advantages to being socially awkward.

• 0:39Simon Sinek?

  So much so, that socially fluent people might actually learn something from us socially awkward people. Now, I'm not gonna lie to you. This conversation is, at times, a little bit awkward. But it's also awesome. This is a bit of optimism. Tai, I've never introduced a guest this way before, but I am so glad that you exist.

• 1:08Speaker 01

  Well, thank you. That's a really nice, really nice way to start off.

• 1:13Simon Sinek?

  I, I am this person that you study and write about. I am and have always been awkward. My girlfriend would make fun of me, but lovingly. She always admired that we would go to a party, for example. We were at a social event. And I had no idea how to insert myself into a conversation. You know, how some people can just saddle up to a conversation and just join in. And it's not awkward or weird or anything. And I'd never known how to do that. And so, what I do is I stand in the middle of the room, or to the side, but sometimes in the middle, completely by myself, holding my drink, just watching everybody. And weirdly, I'm totally comfortable doing it.

• 1:56Simon Sinek?

  But my god, it's awkward for everybody else. And it's awkward for me, too. But, but I've just gotten used to it.

• 2:02Speaker 01

  I know exactly. I know exactly what you're talking about, Simon. So, you're, you're in good company today.

• 2:08Simon Sinek?

  What was your, what's your journey? How did you start studying awkwardness?

• 2:13Speaker 01

  Well, I guess real life experience if we go all the way back. So I was a super awkward kid. I mean, I'm still awkward now, kind of recovered awkward or well coped awkward, I guess.

• 2:27Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, that's what it is.

• 2:28Speaker 01

  Gosh, if you knew me when I was a kid, especially at junior high is awkward for everybody, of course. For me, it was particularly difficult and bewildering. That's kind of where it all began was just with life. And then I had some friends who had moved to new cities. And this was like 2014, I think. A lot of my friends who had moved just happened to be socially awkward. And one of the things I like to do is go visit people when they're new to a city. It's always a hard thing to do and go visit these friends and watch them at parties or at bars or whatever else. Stand there holding a drink sometimes on the side or in the middle. And they would start talking to somebody new and it would just be heartbreaking because

• 3:14Speaker 01

  they'd be awkward and the other person would excuse themselves politely. I gotta go get a drink or I gotta go do something they really didn't have to do. And I gotta say, it just really broke my heart because I thought these were all really great people who were super interesting. Tremendous character. It's really tough to watch them struggle socially, but then I thought it's too bad for the other person too. Because they made a two or three minute decision on whether they wanted to be interested in this person or not. And now they're missing out on one of the most interesting people they could possibly become friends with. So that was where it all started was just this empathic pain for my friends.

• 3:53Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 3:54Speaker 01

  But then also thinking, gosh, why aren't other people more understanding of where the awkward person is coming from? And it kind of led to this, this question for me. I thought, you know, maybe if socially awkward people could skip the first five minutes of conversation, they'd actually be all right because it's the small talk and the minutia that they really struggle with.

• 4:17Simon Sinek?

  Yes, yes, yes. I struggled with small talk. I struggled with minutia. Dating for, for years, dating was awful because I didn't know how to like the awkwardness at the beginning.

• 4:29Simon Sinek?

  And then I find myself overcompensating, you know?

• 4:32Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 4:33Simon Sinek?

  What's the correlation between extroversion, introversion, and awkwardness? Or is there none? You're just either awkward and shy, or awkward and outgoing?

• 4:41Speaker 01

  Well, that turns out to be very interesting, Simon, because there is a small correlation between awkwardness and introversion. But it's not as strong as you would think it would be. And in fact, you do have people who are really awkward and super extroverted. That kind of uncontrolled extroversion, where you're a little too much and overwhelming for other folks if you don't moderate it.

• 5:02Simon Sinek?

  This is interesting. I've always liked Susan Cain's definition of introversion and extroversion, which is about energy. Introverts lose energy being social, and extroverts gain energy being social. Put another way, an introvert wakes up in the morning with five coins, and every social interaction they have, they spend a coin, and by the end, they're depleted. And an extrovert wakes up with no coins. Every social interaction they have, they get a coin, and by the end, they feel rich.

• 5:26Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, exactly.

• 5:27Simon Sinek?

  And to your point, it's not about social awkwardness. There are socially awkward introverts and socially unawkward introverts. And there are socially awkward extroverts and socially unawkward extroverts. So what I appreciate is that you're defining this new category, this new thing called awkwardness. So the people who aren't awkward, what should we be studying in them? Like, is this innate? Or is there a skill that they have that even though it may not be innate for me, that I can actually practice it and get better?

• 6:01Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly. So these non-awkward folks, I like to call them socially fluent. And yes, awkward folks can learn a tremendous amount. And you know, one of the secrets, I think-

• 6:13Simon Sinek?

  I may not get fluent, but I can be somewhat conversational.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  That's right. That's right. And you could even fool people, right? So you're proficient, let's say. But you catch people in the right situation on the right day, and they're like, hey, you're doing great. For example-

• 6:30Speaker 01

  I'm sure you get this all the time. If you tell people that you're awkward, people might have seen your public facing side and that's all they know about you. And then there's almost this disbelief like, Simon, you're not awkward. You're like, no, I actually really am at my core. But when it comes to say something like public speaking, you learned the skills and you hone them to such a degree that it would actually be hard for people to know that you're awkward.

• 6:56Simon Sinek?

  And I have to say, you know, when people say, oh, Simon, how can you be socially awkward? You stand on a stage, blah, blah, blah. But what they forget is that first of all, when I'm on the stage, I'm not talking to anybody and I'm not interacting, you know? But when I come off the stage, people do all the talking at me. Oh, I love what you said. That was great. And I just stand there saying, thank you or answering questions. But I'm actually not having to come up with anything, you know?

• 7:22Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 7:23Simon Sinek?

  So it actually, it makes my life actually a lot easier, weirdly, you know? My social awkwardness has been mitigated.

• 7:30Speaker 01

  Absolutely. You know, and you have quite big control in that scenario, right? The public speaking, you can actually prepare for that and have some control over that. When it comes to people asking you questions, you'll get new ones that you haven't heard before, but you know, you're material. And so you're the kind of the subject matter expert. And that's the way it goes for observing socially fluent people. I always tell socially fluent folks, awkward people are watching you, you know? And hopefully it's not in a creepy kind of way. But I know certainly when I was a kid, I would observe people I respected for their social skill and how they interacted with others. And we'd just study how they greeted people, how they responded, how they held their posture.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  And then in a privacy of my own home, you know, would practice, actually practice some of these things so I could try to gain some of that skill.

• 8:21Simon Sinek?

  What were some of the things that you practiced so you could gain those skills? What are some of the specifics things that you practiced?

• 8:27Speaker 01

  A lot of things. One thing was personal space. My default assignment is to stand too far away from people. So in the United States, it's about 18, 19 inches of personal space is just about right. I'd stand about 24 inches away, which makes you feel oddly distant and it's kind of uncomfortable. And so, yeah, I would watch even how close people stood to other folks. I have a hard time with eye contact by nature, and I would watch how long do they make eye contact when they look away, so they're not bearing into somebody's soul all the time. Where do they look to? How long do they look away? And I would kind of get that rhythm from social

• 9:10Speaker 01

  learning and then practice it. And, you know, it's a little awkward as you're acquiring these skills, but I guess it worked to a certain extent.

• 9:18Simon Sinek?

  I mean, it's kind of like riding a bicycle, right? There's hyper awareness to start. You're like, keep pedaling, keep pedaling, keep pedaling. And then at some point, it becomes more natural. So, you know, as you're practicing these skills, there's hyper awareness, which in itself is awkward for you, like counting how many seconds you're staring at someone's eyes. But to your point, what's the range of appropriateness? Because I catch myself sometimes, like, having a conversation with somebody, and I realize I'm looking everywhere except at them.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  So it's 3.1 seconds, for the record. 3.1 on, second off. You can look wherever you want, it turns out.

• 9:53Simon Sinek?

  So 3.1 on, one off. 3.1 on, one off.

• 9:57Speaker 01

  That's right. Awkward people tend to love detail, so I say, don't fuss about the 0.1.

• 10:03Simon Sinek?

  Right.

• 10:03Speaker 01

  But, yeah, about 3 to 1 ratio. And it's interesting what you say about finding yourself looking anywhere but the person's eyes. There's actually some research on this where they can do eye tracking studies and actually watch where people are looking when they're looking at somebody's face. One of the things they find with socially awkward people is that compared to socially fluent people who reflexively look at the eye region, because the eyes contain actually the most social information, awkward people reflexively look to the chin or to the ear, which have much less social information. But what it seems to do is it makes the social interaction less overwhelming, less emotionally overwhelming.

• 10:46Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  And so it's a way to kind of bring down the intensity of the interaction for the awkward

• 10:53Simon Sinek?

  By the way, just a quick aside, I can't help but realize that for some people listening to this, this is an extremely awkward conversation.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  That's right. I feel like we're on the same wavelength here. If someone's on that wavelength...

• 11:09Simon Sinek?

  We've lost them. They've gone...

• 11:11Speaker 01

  They do this for research purposes.

• 11:12Simon Sinek?

  They're listening to something else. They've moved on.

• 11:17Simon Sinek?

  This is for all the awkward people.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 11:19Simon Sinek?

  Well, we can do a demographic study to what our lis... you know, we'll see how many people listen to the episode and we can make an unscientific assessment of how many awkward people are because they stuck with it.

• 11:30Simon Sinek?

  So here's an interesting question, which is why are people awkward? You know, because the theory being, I mean, I'm gonna completely make stuff up here, but you know, in the realm of evolution, you want the stronger person, the smarter person, to be the one who's procreating, and the social person, the socially fluent person, is more likely to be, sort of have an alpha status and sort of get the better mate. And so the two socially fluent people will procreate. For social animals...

• 11:58Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 11:59Simon Sinek?

  Being socially fluent has got to be helpful. So how did awkward people survive evolution? Like, why are we awkward? Why is there awkwardness?

• 12:10Speaker 01

  It's kind of a miracle we're still here.

• 12:11Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think that's a really interesting lens through which to look at the awkwardness and where it comes from, right? And along with your hypothesis, I think it's really interesting that awkwardness shows pretty strong heritability. So in boys, for example, it's about 53% heritable, and girls, about 39% heritable. So there is a significant genetic component there, which suggests it's being passed down through generations. It's not really clear yet, it's not a slam dunk, why awkward people would have not been selected out at some point. But one thought is this: there's this curious and strong correlation

• 12:54Speaker 01

  between social awkwardness and what researchers call extraordinary achievement or striking talent. So, you know, people who achieve amazing things in this world, things that are kind of at the tail end of the bell curve, they're actually more likely to be awkward. And the reason for that is this obsessive interest in things. And so awkward people really love what they love, to the point that they get obsessed with it, they become obsessed with the details and the minutia, and then trying to put those pieces together in different ways. As an example, I heard a great anecdote from a friend of mine, from his wife.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  She said, hey, one day I walked in and he had taken apart the toaster, and it was just laying there in pieces on the counter. And I said, what are you doing? Is it broken? And he just said, no, I was just really interested in how, in how the pieces worked, and how this thing operates as a whole. And that's kind of like the awkward person, when they really love something, they'll just really get into it, obsess about it. But that, that obsessiveness then translates into persisting through kind of hard times and challenges, and then also eventually getting to a point where they can achieve something that's really pretty exceptional.

• 14:11Simon Sinek?

  That's so interesting. So, when I ask why evolutionarily would an awkward person even make it, it's because there are huge advantages. It's not just social, that there are huge advantages, that we need the awkward people in our society because of their obsession, and they're, I assume, that they're also, they're the observers.

• 14:31Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. The awkward person can be super valuable, because they are seeing the world in a different kind of way, and they are seeing it in this more bottom-up kind of way. And what happens then is you might put those pieces together in a way that nobody else would, and that can lead to creativity or innovation. And that gives diversity to a group's thinking, but can also then, of course, if we're talking about evolution, add resources, because they'll see new ways or better ways to do things.

• 15:02Simon Sinek?

  Yeah. This is so interesting. And it also explains the self-flagellation and the insecurity that sometimes come from being awkward, is because we are equally... Hyper focused on ourselves and because we actually have a means of comparison, right? Like, I've been watching other people and I know how they conduct themselves and I'm not conducting myself that way. I've observed the socially fluent and I'm being socially unfluent and I'm aware of that. And that, I think, is the source of the, unfortunately, a self even more awkwardness.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right. Trying to overcome the previously awkward thing sometimes leads to even a more awkward situation.

• 15:44Simon Sinek?

  I think the other thing is, I think it's worth parsing out, which is, there's no correlation, or I'm assuming there's no correlation, between socially awkward and insecure. Does your research bear that out?

• 15:57Speaker 01

  Yes, you're exactly right. So, there doesn't have to be a correlation between your self-esteem and you being socially awkward. If, yeah, if you're just having some self-awareness about it, people kind of appreciate the straightforwardness. It's like, oh, well, that actually took a little extra confidence to come in hot with, hey, I'm an awkward person. And I think people kind of, I think people kind of appreciate that. It takes a while, sometimes. And so, like, with teenagers, for example, they might have a bit of a lower self-esteem, and it's kind of understandable because they are struggling more. And in some instances, like, the awkward kids getting picked on or something, which doesn't help. But, yeah, the ideal, Simon, would be to get to where, yeah, you just have good self-awareness

• 16:42Speaker 01

  and you own it.

• 16:43Simon Sinek?

  Oh, that's a great, that's a great question, which is, all little kids have no awkwardness. Like, little kids have no inhibitions, no awkwardness. They see the world through the rosiest colored lenses, you know? And then adolescence sets in and all the awkwardness shows up. We look awkward, we sound awkward, we act awkward, you know? And then, for some of us, the awkwardness remains at higher levels, and for some of us, it dilutes and dissipates. The question I have is, is why do we get awkward in adolescence at all? Like, if we weren't awkward as little kids, why the transition into awkwardness, where there's more awkwardness amongst adolescent kids than not?

• 17:26Speaker 01

  There's a couple of things there, you know? So, awkward moments are just deviations from relatively minor social expectations. If it's a violation of a major expectation, like trust, for example- Then you're in a different realm of emotional reaction to that. And unzip zipper or spinach in your front teeth, not a big deal, really, right? But, uh, but those are certainly awkward kinds of moments. What happens when you get to adolescence is things obviously start to change very quickly. Uh, so that could be physical kind of stuff, but also mentally you get this surge of abstract reasoning and you're interested in popularity and abstract things like that. And so there's all these new expectations. Uh, all of a sudden I got to be fashionable.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  Um, all of a sudden I'm much shorter than everybody else who's going through their growth spurt. Uh, there's all these things where there, there's a gap between expectations and your ability to meet those social expectations. And I think that's why in junior high school, for example, it just feels awkward for a lot of folks.

• 18:29Simon Sinek?

  I'm loving this. So what I love about this, which is awkwardness you're defining, and I love this definition, which is it's, it's, it's not quite meeting a social expectation, right? And so I'll tell you a strategy that I've learned that has been extremely beneficial to me, right? Because to your point, in a social interaction, in a bar, at a party, at all these things, there's a, there's a, there's an expectation of sociability and some degree of social fluency that an awkward person really struggles with. The small talk, the, all of that stuff, which I do. And so one strategy is to really, really, really, really work hard on your social fluency so you can be good in those environments. The strategy that I've adopted is to avoid those environments.

• 19:15Simon Sinek?

  Which is, which is I go into, you know, but your point about meeting social expectations, which is I go into environments where the social expectations are different. So an environment where there's a small group of people, a dinner table with two or three people has a different social expectation. That a party, or a bar, or a social event, you can sit quietly at a table for quite much longer without being viewed as awkward. Or you can interact now and then, or allow somebody else to carry the conversation without being awkward. So what I really like is understanding what the expectations are. I think we should all work harder to be better versions of ourselves and be prepared for all scenarios, of course.

• 19:59Simon Sinek?

  But there's something to be said for not beating yourself up when you're bad in a place where the expectations are. One, you can change where the expectations are and put yourself in a place where you're just gonna be naturally better.

• 20:09Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah. Oh, love that. Love that point. Love that strategy. Because some of the unhelpful advice I hear folks give to awkward people is, well, just put yourself out there. You know, just go to the party, just go to the club, go to the nightmare scenario where you're not gonna do well, basically. And what you're saying is, hey, I'm gonna try to set myself up for success by putting myself in social environments where I can thrive and it's better suited to my preferences and my skills. So, yeah, absolutely love that. I mean, one of the things I've just observed in our short interaction here is like you're a naturally curious person.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  And in a smaller group setting with one or two people, and that would be the kind of trait that would really thrive because you'd be, yeah, hey, tell me more about this thing that you're thinking about or that you're interested in, which is really the key to a great social interaction, period. And so, yeah, by you putting yourself in the ideal environment, that's really one of the best things you can do.

• 21:14Simon Sinek?

  I'm gaming the system.

• 21:16Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. And you've also given yourself permission to let go of, you know, kind of forcing yourself to be in situations that you don't enjoy or that aren't good for you.

• 21:26Simon Sinek?

  And, you know, if there's loud music and I can't actually have a conversation, I literally shut down. I can't do it. I'll walk into a place and if the music is too loud for me to engage with somebody, I will leave. You know?

• 21:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, because it's not going to go well.

• 21:41Simon Sinek?

  There's just nothing, there's just nothing I can do in this space, you know?

• 21:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, I'm the same.

• 21:47Simon Sinek?

  And so these little shortcuts to like, you know, I can just walk into a space and if it's, if it's not too loud, even if it's a social environment, I'll figure it out. But if it's extremely loud, I'm gone.

• 21:57Speaker 01

  No, no, yeah. And I mean, it sounds like too, like, you're interested in getting the other person talking. If the other person talks two thirds of the time, you talk one third of the time, they will always walk away thinking you're the coolest, nicest dude around. Because they got to talk about themselves and you were genuinely interested in what, what they had to say. So I think sometimes awkward people put the pressure on themselves to perform, but it's actually really getting the other person to perform, which sounds like your mindset in these interactions.

• 22:25Simon Sinek?

  When it works. Sometimes I think I have to perform and that's when it falls flat.

• 22:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, sometimes you get two awkward people and the other awkward person is that real super shy type.

• 22:36Simon Sinek?

  That's happened to me where I've seen in a social environment where there's lots of people, you know, party club, whatever, and there's one guy standing on the side. Like, I know he's struggling. I know he feels alone. I know he doesn't know what he's doing. And so I'd be like, all right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try and sort of like throw this poor, poor guy a lifeline. I've been there. And I'll walk up and be, and I, and again, because I'm complete crap at small talk, I'll walk up and be like, "How, how you doing?" You know? "You okay?" And he'll go, "Yeah, I'm good." And then the two of us stand there in complete silence.

• 23:10Simon Sinek?

  And awkward, awkward.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  Looking out the dance floor.

• 23:12Simon Sinek?

  Awkward plus awkward is really awkward.

• 23:16Simon Sinek?

  And we're both feeling it until one of us goes, "Okay," and just walks away.

• 23:25Simon Sinek?

  You know? And I've sometimes been on the receiving end in that and I've sometimes been on the giving end of that. But an awkward person will struggle to rescue an awkward person.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, now you're both drowning.

• 23:37Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, it's not a good, it's not a good scenario.

• 23:42Simon Sinek?

  We've talked about what we awkward's can learn from socially fluent people and how we can better improve for, for all the good reasons, you know? It's helpful to be socially fluent in a, in a social world. What can socially fluent people learn from awkward people?

• 23:59Speaker 01

  One of the things I think for folks to know in general is that socially awkward people are just as kind, they are just as trustworthy, they're, they have all, you know, all the stuff that actually really matters in a close relationship, awkward people have. And I, I think one of the things that's bonus is that awkward people, a lot of times have an empathy for what it's like to be misunderstood.

• 24:27Simon Sinek?

  Yeah.

• 24:27Speaker 01

  Or they have an empathy for what it's like to, to struggle in a interpersonal situation. And one of the things I, I just really warms my heart, I guess, is to see the awkward person notice somebody who's struggling, whereas the socially fluent person might not, because they're, you know, not paying attention to some of the details. And one of the things I love is, you know, the awkward person taking the time, uh, to really help folks along who, who might be struggling. And so I think one of the things socially fluent people can learn from awkward folks is to slow down sometimes and think about, hey, is everyone doing well here and what can I do to be helpful?

• 25:11Speaker 01

  I think one of the other things that awkward people do well, that socially fluent people oftentimes can learn something from is just their determination and their persistence. When I'm talking to an awkward person and I find that thing that they're passionate about and that they're obsessed about, I just love hearing about their passion for it, but I also love hearing how they work on it. And there's this discipline, and they can sometimes tip into rigidity, but there's this discipline and there's, there's this persistence, especially through difficult parts, that I think is really admirable.

• 25:47Simon Sinek?

  Yeah, yeah. Can you tell me a specific story about something you were involved in over the course of your professional career, you know, a project you were involved in, something like that, but something that you absolutely loved being a part of, that if every one of your projects was like this one thing, you'd be the happiest person alive?

• 26:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had a recent experience. I was working with a psychedelic pharmaceutical company and they wanted to build this technology tool to understand why psychedelics seem to work for things like depression or addiction. And one of the things I loved about that environment is the guy I worked with most closely was the chief technology officer. He was one of my favorite people I've ever worked with and he only wanted to meet every two weeks, which I liked. And he'd always start with the same question, which just exemplifies what I think I enjoyed about the situation. He would always say, hey, Ty, what can I do to remove the barriers to let you do your best possible work?

• 26:48Speaker 01

  And that was really all he was interested in in doing. And I think the times I've really loved, whatever it is I'm doing, whether it's something about social awkwardness or technology tool or whatever it might be, is I just love the problem. You know, I just love a big nasty problem. And I love obsessing then about figuring out the details of that and, you know, trying to come up with something that's maybe creative or different. And I think finding the freedom to do that in this modern age is is pretty hard to do.

• 27:26Simon Sinek?

  Yeah. What's, give me an early, specific, happy childhood memory. Something specific I can relive with you.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. I guess the thing that comes to mind right now that that was actually kind of a big deal was I was in California with with my dad. We were just kind of taking a boys' trip, the two of us. And my aunt had very generously given me $50. She said, hey, just just spend this on on whatever you want sometime. And I said, okay. So my dad loved clothes. So we went out, did a lot of clothes shopping. And there was this this 80s style rainbow jacket that I loved. It had the stripe down the middle. It's kind of this parka. It was like $45. My dad expected to pay for it. It was like school clothes

• 28:15Speaker 01

  shopping or whatever. Actually took it when he wasn't looking. He was looking at something else. I went and I paid for it with the money my aunt had given me. And when my dad kind of saw what I had done, he just started crying. He like broke down in tears. Like, did I, I did something awkward, like I had upset him or something like that. And he just said, I'm so proud of you for just wanting to be fair and do your part. And that's the most important thing in life, Ty, is just that it's not about the money. It's just that you're thoughtful about being fair with people and being generous with people as much as you're able. My dad was a man of few words, so I remember that really meant, it really meant a lot to me. And it was also kind of, you know, at the time, I think I was in fifth grade.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  You're starting to feel like, hey, maybe I can do, be my own person and do some things on my own.

• 29:06Simon Sinek?

  You know, what's interesting about that story, but also all of your work, which is you really care about self reliance and giving people the tools to be self reliant. And as a kid, it was the $50 that gave you self reliance to make a decision to get something you wanted and not to have to ask or rely. And your awkwardness work, which is to give people the tools that they don't have to lean on someone or rely on someone, but that they know enough and they understand the strengths of being awkward, that they can thrive in life without having to be something that they're not. And I just love that you have this, and you said it's a very generous way of going through life.

• 29:48Simon Sinek?

  And it's like, in all of your work, you have kind of become that CTO at the psychedelics company, you know, which is what can I give to you so that you can be your most successful? And that's exactly what your relationship work is. That is exactly what your awkwardness work is. What can I give to you so that you can be your most successful? You know, I want to, and I love that. I love that about you.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  I really appreciate that. That's one of the nicest things I've heard in quite some time. So, yeah, if I can do that for folks, I I think for me, at least, you know, that's, that's what it's all about.

• 30:24Simon Sinek?

  You know, this is the funny thing about being awkward, which is as a kid, it caused me great distress. Now, as an adult, like I said, standing at the party, sitting at the bar by myself, you know, I just, it just doesn't bother me anymore.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:38Simon Sinek?

  You know?

• 30:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, same.

• 30:39Simon Sinek?

  And, and I'm fully aware it's weird and, but whatever.

• 30:44Simon Sinek?

  I still don't like going to those kinds of places because it puts me in a position of weakness, but I'm, I wouldn't say, I'm not fluent at all, but I, I can order off a menu. You know what I mean?

• 30:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:58Simon Sinek?

  I can, I can be a tourist. I can be a competent tourist. Ty, thank you so much for coming on, sharing your research, sharing your work, sharing your magic. In a very awkward way, I have to say this is very cathartic.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  Well, I'm glad. I'm glad. I really enjoyed the conversation as well. And yeah, we can get on the same wavelength pretty easy.

• 31:23Simon Sinek?

  Yeah. Thanks so much for coming on. I really appreciate it.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  Thank you, Simon.

• 31:28Simon Sinek?

  If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simoncinek.com for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself. Take care of each other.