Colin Kaepernick, 10 Years After Taking A Knee

Ten years after taking a knee, Colin Kaepernick looks back on the decision that changed his life and cost him more than $150 million. In today’s episode, he sits down with Ryan to discuss navigating the backlash, keeping the focus on the message behind his protest, and what, if anything, he would do differently. Colin Kaepernick is a Super Bowl quarterback, civil rights activist, and author of The Perilous Fight https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/the-perilous-fight?_pos=1&_sid=b8f67a3dc&_ss=r. He is the founder of the Know Your Rights Camp, Kaepernick Media, and Kaepernick Publishing, and Lumi Story AI. He has been awarded Amnesty International's Ambassador of Conscience Award, the Sports Illustrated Muhammad Ali Legacy Award, the ACLU Ralph Ellison Award for Defenders of Civil Rights and Civil Liberties in the Arts, Business, Science, and Sports, the ACLU Eason Monroe Courageous Advocate Award, and numerous others for his work in athletics and advocacy. Buy a signed copy of Colin’s memoir, The Perilous Fight https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/the-perilous-fight?_pos=1&_sid=b8f67a3dc&_ss=r: https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/the-perilous-fight?_pos=1&_sid=b8f67a3dc&_ss=r https://www.thepaintedporch.com/products/the-perilous-fight?_pos=1&_sid=b8f67a3dc&_ss=r BuyThe Perilous Fight https://www.amazon.com/Perilous-Fight-Colin-Kaepernick/dp/1538777878/ref=sr_1_1?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9. TO3QF-T5LQfQJSFMacIO_xnksCLI5nWdmnS13aYB5Q7gW067ZVFRxqBczESwyrEZg-qhT9vncVjq6Z5Us5fwLZiVn6s0R0tHP5klRWKVt7c.1VISGZx_7mWaYpMCOkjNtuCFGvYv-b6atQ-6DTLTA_c&dib_tag=se&hvadid=777919685659&hvdev=c&hvexpln=67&hvlocphy=9028217&hvnetw=g&hvocijid=17993278963801239569--&hvqmt=e&hvrand=17993278963801239569&hvtargid=kwd-2478631137968&hydadcr=22596_13821246&keywords=the+perilous+fight+colin+kaepernick&mcid=a7d7e3e515983ffca02abe1764ec160d&qid=1789508904&sr=8-1 on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Perilous-Fight-Colin-Kaepernick/ https://www.amazon.com/Perilous-Fight-Colin-Kaepernick/dp/1538777878/ref=sr_1_1?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9. TO3QF-T5LQfQJSFMacIO_xnksCLI5nWdmnS13aYB5Q7gW067ZVFRxqBczESwyrEZg-qhT9vncVjq6Z5Us5fwLZiVn6s0R0tHP5klRWKVt7c.1VISGZx_7mWaYpMCOkjNtuCFGvYv-b6atQ-6DTLTA_c&dib_tag=se&hvadid=777919685659&hvdev=c&hvexpln=67&hvlocphy=9028217&hvnetw=g&hvocijid=17993278963801239569--&hvqmt=e&hvrand=17993278963801239569&hvtargid=kwd-2478631137968&hydadcr=22596_13821246&keywords=the+perilous+fight+colin+kaepernick&mcid=a7d7e3e515983ffca02abe1764ec160d&qid=1789508904&sr=8-1 Follow Colin | Instagram https://www.instagram.com/kaepernick7/?hl=en, X https://x.com/Kaepernick7, TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@_colinkaepernick7 Know Your Rights Camp https://www.knowyourrightscamp.org/: https://www.knowyourrightscamp.org/ 🎟️ DAILY STOIC LIVE https://www.dailystoiclive.com/| Ryan Holiday is coming to a city near you https://www.dailystoiclive.com/! 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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ryan Holiday?

  Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, designed to help bring those four key Stoic virtues, courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom into the real world.

• 0:15Ryan Holiday?

  Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. So 10 years ago this month, which feels like an eternity ago. What was I thinking about in September of 2016? I guess we were just launching the Daily Stoic. So I was consumed with that. And then this football player makes a decision. And I think in retrospect, it probably felt more momentous at the time. It was more of a slow roiling news story. But on September 1st, 2016, Colin Kaepernick, the quarterback for the San Francisco 49ers, he was three years off of leading them to a Super Bowl.

• 1:01Ryan Holiday?

  The holder of the all time NFL record for the most rushing yards in a game kneeled during the National Anthem to protest racial injustice and police violence. And it sparked a national conversation. It sparked a backlash. And it ultimately led to the end of his NFL career. He sued the NFL over it. Now you can agree with his decision. You can disagree with their decision. You can have differing thoughts on Black Lives Matter or police violence. I think Colin Kaepernick is an interesting person. I admire people who put it all on the line,

• 1:44Ryan Holiday?

  come from a place of principle, who've rooted themselves in the idea of caring about or fighting for the underprivileged. Now, when I say you can have different opinions about this, my father was a police officer for 20 plus years, right? I think the issue is complicated. I don't agree with everything that Colin Kaepernick has said or done, but was really interested in talking about him. And he did, he came out to the painted porch and we had a lovely conversation. And I think you should listen to it. And if you're already angry, I would just say, this is what Stoicism is about. By that, I don't mean justice, the virtue of justice. That is what Stoicism is about. What I mean is it's also about not being a fragile little snowflake

• 2:30Ryan Holiday?

  that gets so angry when somebody talks to someone that you disagree with or talks about issues that you have a different opinion on. In this episode, Colin and I talk about what success obligates you to do. Talk about the complicated relationship between hard work and luck and opportunity, and why justice has to be rooted in a personal sense of right and wrong. We also reflect on the 10 years since Colin first took the knee. Talk about what he might do differently if he was doing it again, what he's learned as part of the process, and how he's dealt with the media firestorm and the end of the career that he cared so much about.

• 3:13Ryan Holiday?

  He has a new book out called The Perilous Fight, which tells the story of his life as well as the questions that it raises and the issues that he thinks are important. Even though he is not playing professional football anymore, he is an author, he is a publisher, he's the co-founder of the Know Your Rights Camp, which is an organization that, that helps people in various communities know what their rights are and how to fight for them. And just a fascinating figure. In addition to being a Super Bowl quarterback, he is a New York Times bestselling author. He is the owner of multiple media companies. And you can follow him on Instagram at Kaepernick7.

• 3:57Ryan Holiday?

  You can grab signed copies of his new book at the painted porch. Here is my conversation with Colin Kaepernick.

• 4:06Ryan Holiday?

  What was Turlock like? I grew up in Sacramento and then I went to Granite Bay High School.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 4:10Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. So I recognize some of the high schools from here.

• 4:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:13Ryan Holiday?

  Cause it's so, it's weird how big an area of schools you like play against.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:19Ryan Holiday?

  All the things.

• 4:21Speaker 01

  Cause we went, we would go from like Fresno to the Bay Area.

• 4:25Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, right, right. Like I saw Lincoln in there and Placer, you play with Placer, Placer. It's crazy big area.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  Yes, we played Granite Bay.

• 4:34Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, we were pretty good, I think. Like, I mean, it was a little bit of a football school, if I remember right.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think we lost to Granite Bay, but I think it was like a 38 to 42 kind of game.

• 4:43Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  And then we actually played Granite Bay in travel baseball growing up.

• 4:50Ryan Holiday?

  Okay.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  I remember it distinctly because I don't remember the exact location of where we played, but that was the first time that we pulled up to a baseball diamond. And it was almost like in the middle of a neighborhood.

• 5:04Ryan Holiday?

  Yep.

• 5:05Speaker 01

  I also was like, oh, I haven't seen a neighborhood like this before.

• 5:10Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 5:11Speaker 01

  I was like, this is a, the houses here, they were huge.

• 5:15Ryan Holiday?

  It was, uh, it was, it was a weird, it was, it was, there was some culture shock moving there for me. I was like, oh, this is, uh, you know, like, you know, cause in high school, it's such a big thing too, where you pull up and then the, the diversity of cars in the parking lot.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:31Ryan Holiday?

  Do you know what I mean?

• 5:32Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 5:32Ryan Holiday?

  From, from the different kinds of students. That was the first time I was like, oh, some of these kids have Maseratis. This is weird, you know? Yeah.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  I mean, the kids in the cars, they pulled up with their parents.

• 5:44Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 5:45Speaker 01

  But you could also tell by the gear they had.

• 5:47Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 5:48Speaker 01

  So it was like, everybody had the top of the line bat. Everybody had top of line gloves. And it was like, oh, this, like, you operate like a professional organization.

• 5:57Ryan Holiday?

  I'm sure it's different now too with, with youth sports, where it's like the level of private coaching you can get and all that kind of stuff. Must be nuts.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  I feel like that was becoming more of a thing.

• 6:07Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 6:08Speaker 01

  When it was coming up. Now it's just even with NIL and like that merging, it's just a whole different ballgame that

• 6:15Ryan Holiday?

  Totally.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  kids are navigating almost as not quite professionals, but like.

• 6:21Ryan Holiday?

  It's weird to have fuck you money at 18.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  I remember being in college and I had, I thought I came up cause I got a bag of Mrs. Fields cookies for free. And I was like, oh, get a little perk for being starting quarterback. Buy a gay like

• 6:39Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  donor money or anything like that. But kids now they make it seven, eight figures.

• 6:46Ryan Holiday?

  Well, yeah, I gave a, I gave a talk at Kentucky, maybe two years ago, the football team, year and a half ago. And they were like, they were like, this is the, the player dorm, right? Which was a perk not that long ago. Like, oh, you get to have your own dorms.

• 7:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:00Ryan Holiday?

  And now they're like, I don't want to live in dorms. Buy my own house, like, and a nice one.

• 7:06Speaker 01

  To me, it's amazing. Like they're gaining the dollars that they should be.

• 7:11Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 7:11Speaker 01

  The same time, the structure and infrastructure around it.

• 7:14Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  Has not been built effectively yet.

• 7:17Ryan Holiday?

  Totally. It can be totally deserved and still fundamentally unhealthy for an 18 year olds to be in that position.

• 7:26Speaker 01

  I mean, prior to that, we saw a shock when you go to the professional level.

• 7:30Ryan Holiday?

  Of course.

• 7:30Speaker 01

  Like, I remember the moment that I got my first signing bonus. I was like, oh, you got, it was a little over $2 million.

• 7:40Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, you talked about that in the book.

• 7:42Speaker 01

  And it's like, oh, I'm like, I made $2 million?

• 7:45Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  And then after taxes, you're like, oh, I have a million dollars right now.

• 7:50Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  Now I had, I was terrified of losing it.

• 7:53Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 7:54Speaker 01

  But I think for, for a lot of athletes, like, I also look at it as generational opportunity. And now that's happening at the college level.

• 8:04Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  Which makes me like, if the right support and infrastructure is put in place there, like the impact that can have is massive. Right now, I think it's kind of positioned like, oh, you came up like amazing.

• 8:19Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 8:19Speaker 01

  Go do your college thing with the money.

• 8:21Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 8:22Speaker 01

  I think reframing some of that thinking of like, you have opportunity to set your family up forever.

• 8:28Ryan Holiday?

  And also, I think this is an interesting part of your story, but what is the responsibility that you have now that you have that money? Right? And not just for the people in your life, but like, we would like to think like, as soon as you get fuck you money, that people suddenly, they say what they think, they do what they think is right. You know, that you, you would think it would make you more active and courageous, but usually the opposite is the case because now you have so much to lose.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:56Ryan Holiday?

  And there's a dollar sign attached to the decision you're making and the words that you're saying.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  Yes. And it speaks to like an understanding of society that, that no one explicitly wants to call out.

• 9:13Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  Which is, hey, if you don't have money, like your access and opportunity is significantly not the same.

• 9:23Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  And it's like, well, now that I have this, I don't ever want to go back to that position. Which is also to me like, well, we should raise what that position is.

• 9:36Ryan Holiday?

  Of course, yes, yes.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  That, that should be the hook that's like, hey, if you, if you want access to nice things or to be able to live a good life, like you have to hold on to this or like, you're never going to get it. And I think that creates that dynamic where it's like, I don't ever want to lose this. So I'll do whatever I can to, to maintain and hold on to it because I know what's on the other side.

• 10:01Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I think people miss like, if, if you had a more equitable and a more just society, like, but just take something basic, like if healthcare wasn't tied to your employment, you know what people would do? They would follow their dreams more. Like they would start companies, they would take risks, they would go for it. Like it would be better for everyone if people weren't like, I have to show up every day and work this job that I hate because my daughter has a medical condition or because I have a medical condition or my, or whatever it is, right? Like, and so I don't think we like, you're right. Like when, when the baseline is scary to people or like the poverty line or minimum wage is basically like impossible to actually live on.

• 10:44Ryan Holiday?

  And not only it sucks for those people, but it also is, there's a tax on people who have succeeded because they, they're like, I have to, I have to be more conservative, like lowercase conservative, not politically necessarily, but I just can't risk losing what I have because the safety net is not here. The safety net is like here.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  Yes. To that point, being on the like, I have, I have companies, employees.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  The number one thing when you're hiring is like, okay, it's like, what healthcare do you have in place?

• 11:17Ryan Holiday?

  It's crazy.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  Like, what?

• 11:17Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. Should not be the first question. It should be like, will I like working here?

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Yes. And that, it speaks to that fact of like, being able to provide necessities for people. So they can actually go out and do their best work and do things that they're passionate about and successful in. Like, that becomes so important. And to your point, that safety net.

• 11:38Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  Um, and even when we talk about minimum wage and where that's at. It's very difficult to be able to live and sustain on that.

• 11:46Ryan Holiday?

  It's totally impossible.

• 11:47Speaker 01

  It's insane. And, you know, I was talking to my, my wife about this because, you know, have lived in California, have lived in New York.

• 11:56Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  And the time that we spend in New York, like, if you're making minimum wage, it's hard for me to understand how you live in New York.

• 12:05Ryan Holiday?

  I think about those people on those delivery bikes. Where do they live? Where, where could you possibly live? What does your life look like? And, you know, like, there, there's this famous scene in Theodore Roosevelt's life where he, he's just become a politician and they're voting on this law about, the, the, about cigar making, conditions in cigar factories, which were then in the Lower East Side of New York City. And, you know, he's like a Republican, typically sort of has this laissez faire view of politics. And he's, he's going to vote on this bill and, and this guy, he, he knows,

• 12:39Ryan Holiday?

  it says like, come down to me and like, look at the factories. He's lived in New York his whole life. He's never been there. He goes and he sees what it's like. People are making them in their apartment. It changes the course of his life. It's, it's, there's this famous scene where, uh, it goes like, when you know how the other half lives, you're, you're sort of, faced with this question of like, what do you do about it? And I think a big part of it is like, you really don't know how those people, like you really, like, unless you force yourself to think about it, because it's out of sight and out of mind, you're, you're not thinking about where this person delivering your Starbucks order. So you didn't have to walk three blocks is coming from, but it must be from extremely far away. Like, if you know what you're paying to live in New York City.

• 13:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:22Ryan Holiday?

  How are you possibly supporting yourself on, you know, a 12% tip on a $14? Or like, yeah, there's no way it works.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. The, the math doesn't math.

• 13:33Ryan Holiday?

  No, totally.

• 13:34Speaker 01

  And to me, I think it speaks to just generally how I think about it's like, when you have had success, is part of your responsibility to try to raise the bar. It shouldn't be a perspective of, hey, I understand what this is like and I understand where the safety net is.

• 13:52Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  Like, let me run further away from it.

• 13:54Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  For my own safety and security versus, oh, I understand what this is. Like, this actually shouldn't be the case, raise this bar. And I think that's, I mean, especially when you get into like extreme wealth and areas like that. Like, you're making money on your money. You're making more money on your money than people make in their lifetimes. Which becomes a weird position when you hear a lot of the conversations around like, oh, well, I don't want to be taxed more. And I don't, it's like, there's also to me, a, a social obligation.

• 14:33Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 14:34Speaker 01

  Within society that's, we're actually supposed to look out for and take care of each other. And part of that may be, hey, I have a little bit more. We, we should do more to be able to support society more broadly. And like that, to me, that has always been my understanding of how we interact as society, how we interact as people more broadly.

• 14:57Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  And I think that gets lost in the conversations because it just becomes like dollars and cents.

• 15:04Ryan Holiday?

  It's like, the first obligation of success is don't lie to yourself about the success. Like, like, don't, don't lie to yourself about how you did all of it yourself. And, you know, you deserve every penny of it. Like the first, first you have to be honest about the way that, that luck played a role in your success. And then you, the, you also have to be honest about the other people who are not successful or not as successful as you. Like, first off, what the reality of their life is like. And that, the idea that, that your success is because of you and their lack of success is because of them. This is a lie, right? So that's first. And then I, you're right. The second step is like, how do you contribute to a society that is more just or more fair?

• 15:47Ryan Holiday?

  Or at least takes those concerns seriously. And I think the irony is a lot of people who come from, not a lot, but some people who come from adversity or difficulty, you'd think that would make you more empathetic. But, but because that's such a, a, a mental load to carry, it actually has the opposite effect. Like you just decide, hey, if I have to think about all the people like me who didn't make it, I can't do what I do. And I, so I think there's a part of success that makes people turn off their hearts to the people that didn't make it as far as them.

• 16:23Speaker 01

  I also think there's a, there's an interesting dynamic within it. This touches on your first point of like, understand that there's a level of luck and a level of, there are people around you that contributed to setting you up for success.

• 16:37Ryan Holiday?

  Totally.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  And oftentimes it's like, well, you came from there and you made it. So like, why didn't everybody else?

• 16:47Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  And to your point, like, there is luck as a factor. There, there is your own personal like contributions and work and mentality around it. Like, absolutely. But it's a both and.

• 16:58Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 16:59Speaker 01

  And there was actually, uh, Stokely Carmichael, um, I'll just know as Kwame Ture, had a great quote when he was asked about this. And basically the question was like, you know, you, you went to a good school. You were able to have success. Like, you're in a good position. Like, what makes you qualified to talk on this? Like, why can't everybody else just do that? And it's like, well, if you become the anomaly, or you become the exception to the rule, you can't use that to justify.

• 17:34Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  Everything else.

• 17:35Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 17:36Speaker 01

  And it's like, yeah. And I think having an understanding of like where you come from and struggles that people go through and the realities that come with that. Like, there's, there's very real, like, life and death decisions that are being made. There's also very real, like, are we going to eat or not? Are we going to pay our light bill? Or are we putting food on the table? Like, those decisions are being made.

• 18:03Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  And I think understanding that causes some people to go to the space of like, I'm never going back.

• 18:12Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 18:13Speaker 01

  There's nothing you could do to convince me like, I should be looking back this way. I'm going to keep going as far as I can. And I think oftentimes, well intentioned in relation to their own self-interest and their family.

• 18:27Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  But I think broadening that aperture of, I'm no longer in that place and position. Like, I don't have to operate from a mentality of scarcity because that's not what you're, where you're at anymore.

• 18:40Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. They're not coming for your stuff.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  Like, you're, you're okay, I promise you.

• 18:45Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  Um, cause at that point, like, people have the financial advisors in place. They have wealth managers that put, like, if they don't know the details of it, they have a general sense of where their dollars and cents are.

• 18:57Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  Like, and where the security is. So I think on that front is, well, let's set up so they can thrive too.

• 19:05Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  So they don't have to go through the same thing you went through.

• 19:09Ryan Holiday?

  And look, if you don't have it within you to help other people, how about we just don't make it harder on those people? You know what I mean?

• 19:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:17Ryan Holiday?

  Like, there's, you know, there's that metaphor of like crabs in a barrel.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:21Ryan Holiday?

  Well, that, sure, maybe that's a problem, but there's also this problem where people are like, stay in the fucking barrel, man. You know, like, like, uh, and, and there's, there's that, I think you're right. It's like, it's sort of a fear. It's a resentment and it's a, it's a, I, I just don't want to be, I, I don't want anything that could possibly take me back in that direction. So I'm going to sort of close my heart and mind to it.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  I love this crabs in the barrel, like conversation. Cause to your point, there is some like, no, stay in the barrel.

• 19:49Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 19:50Speaker 01

  But the, the question I always ask is, who put the crabs in the barrel?

• 19:54Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  Like, right. That's not their natural environment and habitat. Like, why are they there?

• 19:59Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 20:00Speaker 01

  So like, let's actually put them in the environment that they're meant to go thrive in.

• 20:05Ryan Holiday?

  It's like, if only there was some historical explanation why certain groups of people ended up in certain places, under certain conditions. If only some crack historian could crack this code and tell us why things are like that. It would be mind blowing. I'm sure we'd.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  If only there was some data narrative around that.

• 20:25Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 20:25Speaker 01

  That would be, that would be helpful for us to be able to solve this.

• 20:30Ryan Holiday?

  Okay. So it's been 10 years and I was thinking about this. I remember I was watching, uh, an episode of Behind the Music as a kid, like in high school or something. And I remember it was, it was the, the Behind the Music about Ice T. And, um, he was talking about, you know, his famous song that was this huge controversy. And he was like, there's nothing quite like hearing the president of the United States say your name in anger. And I just, for some reason, that thing stuck in my head always. And there's not that many people that know what that's like. And you're one of those people.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  It's a unique moment.

• 21:08Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 21:09Speaker 01

  I don't think there's anything that you could do to, to like, prepare for that.

• 21:13Ryan Holiday?

  To have the most powerful person in the world personally mad at you.

• 21:17Speaker 01

  Well, I would say beyond personally mad, like actively work to try to make sure that you don't have a career.

• 21:24Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 21:25Speaker 01

  I guess, that was a new one for me.

• 21:29Speaker 01

  But it, to me, it begs the question as to why?

• 21:33Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  Why did this upset you so much? And for me, it's like, the, the core of this is, we're trying to address systemic oppression. Trying to create better society, better conditions for people. And more specifically, we're trying to make sure that black people weren't being killed by police. Why is people not being killed so offensive? Like, I think getting to the crux of that is like, why are you against that?

• 22:00Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  For me in that moment, it was, one, it was enlightening to be able to see

• 22:08Speaker 01

  how far the protests had reached.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  The fact that this was something he was going to be focused on.

• 22:14Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  And then on a personal level. And then it's like, well, how, how do you navigate this effectively?

• 22:23Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  There's a, how do you navigate this in a way that is most beneficial for the protests and the movement? And saying people up for success?

• 22:33Ryan Holiday?

  And your job also?

• 22:35Speaker 01

  And your job. And there's also the, the personal side. And I find those and sometimes the conflict between those is an interesting piece to navigate. Cause there's times that's like, well, personally, I want to go out and respond this way.

• 22:49Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  I want to go do these things, but is that the most beneficial thing?

• 22:54Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  I've found that oftentimes the things that, or at least I felt the things that I personally may have wanted to go out and do or say,

• 23:05Speaker 01

  I don't think would have been the, the most productive.

• 23:09Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  In those moments.

• 23:11Ryan Holiday?

  I read a thing with John Thompson once, and he was saying like, I just never had the luxury of just being a basketball coach. Like for, for whatever was happening, I never got to just be that. And I imagine, yeah, you never got to be just Colin. You never got to be just a quarterback going for his job. You had to think about it on these multiple levels and decide which one you were going to prioritize. And which one might've been more cathartic? Or maybe more in your self-interest and then that tug, how did you navigate that?

• 23:47Speaker 01

  A lot of conversations and also a lot of self-reflection. I think I became decently good at trying to decipher like, is this something that I feel? Just based upon like my own eager or my own anger around this, or my own feelings around it. And I just want to go out and respond to.

• 24:10Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  Or is this something that I think is actually going to move us forward? And it was tough in those environments because part of it was, great example. People were, were supporting the work on the movement side. People were continuing to protest. Me regaining my career when being blackballed is a personal interest. That also in many ways has ties to the movement. And overall positioning of like, what is possible? Is it acceptable to be able to blackball someone for their positions?

• 24:50Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 24:53Speaker 01

  So many ways that they're intertwined, but also distinctly different.

• 24:58Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 24:59Speaker 01

  And that blurring of the lines was one that I wouldn't ask people to go out and protest for my job.

• 25:08Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  Like that was something that I wasn't going to do. There were people that went out and did that, and I'm extremely grateful for it. But it was like, I have to stay focused on the work and movement side. Now personally, I'm continuing to pursue this, but like, it didn't feel right to say all the movement and movement work and the momentum there. Actually bring this over here.

• 25:31Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 25:32Speaker 01

  And just protest for my job and career as part of this. And there's times that I think if I did that, would I have a higher likelihood of playing in the NFL and being in the NFL again? I think so.

• 25:49Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. If you cut yourself loose, it probably would have been better for your financial and career interests.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  Oh, 100%.

• 25:58Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  Just from, just from the NFL side, like that was a loss of 150 plus million dollars. Like it's not, not insignificant money, but at the same time in that process, like if I do that, that then takes away from the work that's being done directly in the communities.

• 26:16Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  And it also conflates them in a way that creates more self-interest within the work that's being done.

• 26:24Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  That thing then causes people to call into question like, is this actually about the movement and communities and creating better lives and opportunities for people? Or is this a way to just better position yourself?

• 26:38Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 26:38Speaker 01

  And like, those are things that to me, I try to keep distinctly different, which is, it's hard to do.

• 26:46Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  But you tried each scenario, you tried to walk through that of like, which is which?

• 26:51Ryan Holiday?

  Well, yeah, there's, there's so many conflicting and contradictory things in there is like, you got this, these political beliefs, this position. And then yeah, it leads to you being blackballed from your job. And so you would like to be able to have your job and you'd like to be able to speak to this movement. And then, yeah, it could, it's probably weird to ask these people in this movement to fight for you to get your multimillion dollar job back. You know, um, and yeah, but things are confusing and we contain multitudes.

• 27:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's the part that was probably one of the more difficult pieces to navigate. And trying to make that explicitly clear to people.

• 27:31Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  Like, hey, when we have, when we have work that we're doing in the communities, like that work, there can't be personal benefit to.

• 27:41Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  So like, even with a great example of this with know your rights camp and the work that we do there. When we go city to city, I will not use the know your rights camp dollars.

• 27:53Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  To pay for my own flight or hotel. I, I, I keep it so distinctly different, even though we're doing it for other volunteers to be able to go out and do the work. Like, I want to make sure that's beyond reproach because the, to me, the integrity and trust within it becomes so critical for people to be able to be like, okay, I understand the intentions behind this. And I believe the intentions as opposed to like, oh, here's a backdoor way for you to do something else.

• 28:25Ryan Holiday?

  I wrote about this in, in my justice book. I did this book on the series on the cardinal virtues. And we tend to think of justice as like politics, the law, judges and juries. But there's this other layer of justice that I think starts with the individual, which is just like, what are the standards you hold yourself to?

• 28:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:43Ryan Holiday?

  Like you can have the charitable organization cover these expenses, but you decide not to. You don't have to speak out about something. Nobody's asked you, but you decide, right? Like, like the, the sense of like who I am, what I have to do to be able to look myself in the mirror or sleep well at night. That's like the sort of bedrock level of justice that you would hope, we sometimes we call this conscience, that you would hope everyone would be motivated by, or that would be the sort of base layer. But we get really good at either talking ourselves out of that or saying, well, everyone else is doing it this way. Or no one else is doing anything about this, therefore it's not on me.

• 29:26Speaker 01

  Yes. And I think that becomes to a point like that, that personal sense of like justice or morality.

• 29:34Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 29:35Speaker 01

  That foundation being laid early on is so critical.

• 29:39Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 29:41Speaker 01

  Because one of the things I remember early from my parents was I, you treat everybody with respect. And they also made it very clear when I was having success in sports, I was like, yeah, you may be good at sports. There's other people that are great at science.

• 29:59Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 30:00Speaker 01

  There's other people that are great at music, or they're going to be great at law. Or they may be a great janitor.

• 30:08Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  Like it, it doesn't matter who they are or what their role is. Like you treat everybody the same. You treat them with respect. And that just being a foundation and then a sense of like, you take care of each other. Like you're supposed to look out for each other.

• 30:24Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 30:25Speaker 01

  And I think some of that, some of that comes from probably a, the midwestern background. Like parents are from Wisconsin and then we lived in a small town in, in California. So just the dynamics there were.

• 30:41Ryan Holiday?

  Joan Didion, this is, this was her table. She's the author. She said Sacramento, but she was talking about central California. She says it's the, it's the only place in the Midwest located in California. So if there is a midwestern vibe to that part of California, people think of California as super blue, super liberal, super coastal. And it's like, I don't think you've driven from LA to, uh, to Sacramento anytime soon, because you've passed through a lot of sort of heartland United States.

• 31:11Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And Turlock, and the reason we ended up in Turlock was my dad worked in the dairy industry.

• 31:17Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 31:18Speaker 01

  So, and there was a lot of, lot of Wisconsin, a lot of midwesterners that, that came out as part of that. But it also was, Turlock was a small enough town too.

• 31:29Speaker 01

  Where you kind of know everybody. You don't, you don't necessarily know everybody, but if you're out somewhere, people can be like, I'll call your parents. Like everybody knows your parents. So there, there's also having that small town sense. I think also creates a space where proximity to people feels different. And the connection to people feels different than if you're in a major city where there's millions of people here.

• 31:56Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 31:56Speaker 01

  And you can kind of fly under the radar with some of those interactions. I think that plays a part in it too. But overall, the, the point I'm getting at is like, there has to be a sense of looking out for each other.

• 32:08Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  And like my, in having success, part of that success and responsibility comes with, how do I give back? How do I support? How do I make sure that other people are doing well? And today, oftentimes we leave that in the hands of

• 32:28Speaker 01

  personal decisions.

• 32:29Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 32:29Speaker 01

  And philanthropic efforts versus looking at systems and how we actually make that sustainable and repeatable.

• 32:36Ryan Holiday?

  That was the weirdest part of the criticism of you that, that I perceived. And, and you got it from both sides. Like you talk about Richard Sherman in the book, but those like white people would go, he's had a great life. What does he have to complain of? And then, then some black people were like, well, he didn't come from where we're come, where we came from. What does he have to complain about? And it's like, that's, that's not what our obligation to speak up about injustice is rooted in. It's not whether you personally experienced it or not. If anything, like, uh, just because you haven't experienced it should like, like the idea that you should only be outraged about things that you personally perceived strikes me as a weird constraint.

• 33:20Ryan Holiday?

  And then also you never know what people have gone through in your life. And you talk about some sort of weird encounters you've had in the book, but that just seems like a weird way of, of like cancelling people out of participating in discussions.

• 33:34Speaker 01

  I think of it from a perspective, if we collectively took that approach.

• 33:37Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 33:38Speaker 01

  What you're saying is, well, wealthy people shouldn't care about poor people.

• 33:42Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  Men shouldn't care about women's rights. I have healthcare, so like, I don't care about everybody else's healthcare.

• 33:48Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 33:49Speaker 01

  Like it becomes a very individualistic approach.

• 33:51Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 33:52Speaker 01

  Versus being able to step back and say, well, no, let's look at society in totality. I may not have had that experience, like, we've done work supporting immigrants. I'm not an immigrant. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be able to live successful lives and be able to thrive. So it almost becomes like a weird benchmark.

• 34:13Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  To be able to say, well, if you have an experience that you don't get to speak on it. Now, what I will say within that, I understand the sense of, you may not be the person that should lead it. If you haven't had those experiences, like, I can understand that because there's, there's time that, that that's been used to derail things and take things in a different, different direction. But that doesn't mean you can't be a significant contributor.

• 34:40Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  In these spaces. So I, I think there's a, an area there that's, I think it has misaligned the outcomes that we're trying to accomplish with personal interests.

• 34:52Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, it's also, it's like this classic thing where like, uh, political movements and society fights horizontally instead of vertically. You know?

• 35:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:02Ryan Holiday?

  Which, which I always think is interesting, but like, to me, that it's also this fundamental misunderstanding. Like there's this great innovation that happens 2000 years ago. This guy, Jesus comes along and, uh, you know, Rome is this hierarchical sort of society based on power and exploitation and lineage and family, which basically like all sort of ancient civilizations is good for these elite people on top. They produce great stories and great art. And, you know, whether it's the Egyptians creating pyramids or Rome creating these buildings and this art and philosophy, but like it fundamentally grinds up and exploits the lowest people in society.

• 35:46Ryan Holiday?

  And this guy, Jesus comes along in that Roman empire and says like, hey, by the way, what you do for the least of society, you are doing for me. Right? Like he, he, it's this moral inverse. He flips it and he says, actually it's the people at the bottom. How you treat them, what you think about them, what you try to do for them that says everything about a society. It's not how it's working for the, the creme de la creme. It's the society is judged on how it is working for those people. And then later this philosopher named John Rawls comes in and he, do you know about the, the idea of the veil of ignorance?

• 36:29Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 36:29Ryan Holiday?

  It's this interesting theory. He says like, you should try to design a society, your political view should be based on not how this would work for you in your current position in society. Like theoretically, like what do I care about who's president? I'm pretty good, right? Like it's going to be fine for me either way. Or this policy or that policy mostly going to be fine for me. So he says, don't think about it as how it's going to affect you. But imagine you are behind a veil of ignorance. You are picking policies for a society. And then everything's going to be scrambled up and you're not going to know where you fall in the spectrum. Right? So you might be the slave, you might be the factory worker, you might be this.

• 37:12Ryan Holiday?

  You might, you want to, you want to pick policies or ideas. You want to have moral beliefs that would be best for your role if roles were assigned at random.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:23Ryan Holiday?

  And suddenly you're like, oh, I get why I should care about this. Right? Like, and so to me, you take those two things. You take Jesus's teaching, you take the, the veil of ignorance from John Rawls and you go, oh, okay. This is why, even if I'm pretty good because I worked hard or I was born on third base, whatever it is, that's not like the status quo for me. The status quo should be, no, imagine I am one of these people. What would I want? It's like, it's like an extension of the golden rule, right? And so this idea that like, oh, this person shouldn't care because things have been good for them. Or this person isn't authentic because like they're not actually suffering. It's like, no, no, no. Actually the work for all of us is like, what would we want society to be?

• 38:07Ryan Holiday?

  If we were in a position other than the one we're currently in.

• 38:11Speaker 01

  I love that framework and the references because it oftentimes when I look at where, where we're at today is we often see some of the most wealthy having the conversations of like, well, what can you do for me?

• 38:27Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 38:29Speaker 01

  Like I'm in a position of power. What can you do for me that's helpful? Like I understand the business aspect of it. Like I, I do. At the same time, the business has to work within society. And I think we should be prioritizing those societal aspects to your point of,

• 38:49Speaker 01

  what does it mean?

• 38:52Speaker 01

  If we have a significant portion of our population that's struggling to just fulfill basic needs.

• 38:58Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 38:58Speaker 01

  Like we've become okay with that because it's like, oh, it's not, it's not directly in my neighborhood. Like it doesn't touch me today. So like, I don't, you really don't have to think about it. And

• 39:13Speaker 01

  I think repositioning that, um, which I, I love that. The, the part that I also think about in relation to that is I think there will be a lot of people that will, that could take that in theory, but actually putting that into practice.

• 39:28Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 39:28Speaker 01

  Is like the, how do you get people to actually move that way?

• 39:33Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  And I think a lot of where we're at today is it has to be done through policy because left up to their own will and devices. Like that's just not going to be the case.

• 39:44Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 39:44Speaker 01

  Which is unfortunate. But I think that's some of where we're at.

• 39:48Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. I mean, I like the police issue, which is obviously what plunges you into this sort of political fray is like, I just don't know why it's so hard for people to, to go, hey, the police work great in my neighborhood and I have a good relationship with them. But here is a community, here are people telling me that it's different where they are. And both these things can be true at the same time. And that like, instead of going, oh no, it's not an issue because it's working for me. You go, hey, actually, yeah, everyone should have it. Like, like I don't worry about getting pulled over by the police. Right? That's because it's my bedrock constitutional right.

• 40:29Ryan Holiday?

  Right? Like that, that, that's not like, like, one of the things I've hated is like that being phrased as privilege. Right? Like it's privilege relatively, but it's actually not a privilege. Thomas Jefferson, a flawed individual said, it's my inalienable right to not be harassed by the police while I'm going about my life. Do you know what I mean? Like, like people fought and died. So I can only be stopped by the police if they have reasonable cause to do so. Right? Or probable cause to do so. And then I have certain protections that protect me from abuses from them. And like, that's not privileged. That's my right. And the fact that it's not enforced equally.

• 41:10Ryan Holiday?

  And right, it's not, it's not my problem, but it's still my responsibility to insist that that not be the case.

• 41:19Speaker 01

  Yes. To that point, if we're in a space where society and communities were treated on a, a level playing field, the conversations we would be having are drastically different.

• 41:31Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. We could be solving actual like bigger problems. Like we could be working on other stuff.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  Exactly. And it's, I think, I think the reality is, um, in that instance, and I'll use this one as a specific example, just to paint this picture is thinking back to 2016. Philando Castile, and rest his soul, like he is a probably prime example of this in practice.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  Had done everything right. Had walked through the process. Interacted with the, the police. Very calm there, explaining what was happening. And he was shot and killed in front of his partner and daughter.

• 42:12Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 42:13Speaker 01

  And there, there's no way on the flip side of that. There wouldn't be mass outrage across communities. If that happened in a white community.

• 42:22Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 42:22Speaker 01

  It'd be like, this police officer has to go. We also need to look at the systems holistically. Like, why was this ever even a possibility? Why was, why were they ever pulled over? Like, what were? And I think going back to some of the foundation and calling it a question of like, why are the systems operating the way they are? And why they show up in specific communities that way? If there was no difference, there wouldn't be a reason to call those into question. I think the broader piece there is like, people wanna have safety. That's a fundamental piece is like, people wanna feel safe.

• 42:57Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 42:58Speaker 01

  There's a significant portion of the population that does not feel safe with police around because of how those interactions have been. Where on the flip side is like, well, police make me feel safe typically because I have a level of power or wealth or positionality within society. That feels, makes me feel like I need to be protected from others.

• 43:20Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 43:21Speaker 01

  And oftentimes that also aligns around socio economic status. Um, within communities. As far as who is getting policed. Um, and who has police protecting them.

• 43:35Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. No, and it's, but people don't understand the way that all of our rights are bound up with each other.

• 43:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:41Ryan Holiday?

  Right? Like, like, I think you see the mental gymnastics people will do to not have to care about an injustice happening to someone else. It's like remarkable, right? Like, it's like, they're like, you go like, okay, look, ICE is grabbing people off the street at school bus stops. You know, and deporting them. And people go, well, you shouldn't have come here illegally if you didn't want that to happen. And it's like, okay, but, but they don't know that that person is here illegally until they have violated. Not just their rights, but rights generally, right? Like, if you're racially profiling someone because they look like an immigrant,

• 44:23Ryan Holiday?

  you are violating not the rights of that person who may or may not be here illegally. You're violating the rights of all people that look like that person. Right? And eventually it will cause problems for you or someone that you love. Who is just somewhere different on that spectrum. You know, and um, it's just, it's not good to have systems that oppress people because eventually that oppression comes for you or someone you care about.

• 45:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:03Ryan Holiday?

  And it's not that hard to understand that, but apparently it's really hard.

• 45:08Speaker 01

  There's a few things that makes me think of. One is, I think because of the environment that's been created. I think a lot of this actually centers around like haves and have nots.

• 45:21Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  Um, and a lot of it comes across in relation to class. Um, but it also falls along racial lines, um, in demographics. But is, if immigrants are coming here, well, they must be taking something from me.

• 45:35Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 45:35Speaker 01

  And that's just not the case.

• 45:37Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 45:38Speaker 01

  From the human side, like, we should support people. If you even look at it from a space of, well, I feel like they're taking something from me. They're massive contributors to society.

• 45:49Ryan Holiday?

  If, if anyone's taking anything from immigrants, it's that most of them pay taxes and then don't get any benefits from society.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 45:56Ryan Holiday?

  So like, uh, you might be the taker.

• 45:59Speaker 01

  We saw this with a lot of farmers. And we're like, oh, I didn't, I didn't think they were gonna take my employees.

• 46:06Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  I thought they were gonna take other people. And it's like, when you create a system that's structured, um, and allows for you to discriminate against people. Inevitably, that continues to expand to discriminate against more and more people.

• 46:22Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  Towards a consolidation of power, consolidation of resources. Like, that's just historically how we've seen it play out.

• 46:29Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, this is the idea from, from Martin Luther King, that a, that a threat to justice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. It doesn't happen in isolation, it metastasizes.

• 46:38Speaker 01

  Yes. For me, I, I think about this in the lens of, it shouldn't have to knock on your door.

• 46:44Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 46:44Speaker 01

  For you to be alarmed and say, oh, we shouldn't do this. Like, this is bad. Like, this is gonna have negative consequences on us holistically.

• 46:52Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 46:52Speaker 01

  Collectively, I think we need to be approaching things that way of like, let's not do bad things.

• 46:58Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  Let's do things that actually serve people.

• 47:00Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 47:01Speaker 01

  And in the process, like, are there gonna be inefficiencies? Are there gonna be ways that things can be made better? Absolutely. But it feels like there's a, a decent amount of work that's being done right now. That's not even coming from a foundation of, how do we help make sure that people are in a good place to be able to succeed and thrive?

• 47:20Ryan Holiday?

  Well, it's a, it's, it's a cliche, maybe you experience a little bit, but you, you hear from lots of men who, they're like, now that I have daughters, I care about this. You know? And, and it's like, it's great, I'll take it. Like, whatever is, serves as the wake up call for anyone. Like, we shouldn't judge, we should appreciate it. Well, come over, the water's warm. But there is something somewhat like, it's sort of like, um, well, it's egotistical, it's self-absorbed, where you're like, I didn't care about this until it affected me personally or someone I care about in some way.

• 47:55Speaker 01

  It's a very interesting thing. I think some of it maybe goes back to that proximity piece.

• 48:00Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 48:01Speaker 01

  I think some of it goes into self-interest and just like ego around it. The part that I grapple with on that is like, if you realize and care about it, in this instance, because you have a, a daughter now. That also means you realized some of what was at play prior to having a daughter.

• 48:22Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 48:22Speaker 01

  Like, unless, again, to your point, like, hey, we're, we're gonna take everybody. Like, let's, let's keep going. We also need to be self-aware and introspective in relation to, well, why didn't I care before?

• 48:38Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 48:39Speaker 01

  Why wasn't I willing to take action before?

• 48:41Ryan Holiday?

  It's a, curiosity is important. What is it like to be another person? What, what is the world like for these other people? And, um, yeah, some, some reflection as to why you were indifferent to it before is in order.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. I love that curiosity piece because there is a sense of like, one, you have to be curious enough to be able to understand. I think the, the other part is, in being curious, where do you see your position within it?

• 49:11Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 49:12Speaker 01

  And also, a lack of understanding is not an indictment. Like, I think that's a part that people need to understand too. Is not understanding and asking the question.

• 49:23Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  Doesn't mean that you did anything wrong. Like, it, what it does do though is open you up for the opportunity to get more insight and understanding. Now, what becomes critical is what you do with that insight and understanding once, once you have that. And to me, I think there's, I think we get caught up oftentimes around, hey, we need to, we need to have broader discussion around these specific areas that we, we already have pretty significant understanding.

• 49:53Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 49:54Speaker 01

  As opposed to, okay, we have a good understanding of this. Let's go out, try to solve it.

• 49:59Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 50:00Speaker 01

  And then we can iterate on how we're solving it. Because it's not gonna be a perfect solution the first time. But like, we should be working together towards solutions in that way.

• 50:11Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, right, no, curiosity is not an indictment. And in fact, you're doing a disservice when you shut people's curiosity down. And, and it's like, there was that kind of woke thing for a while where it's like, it's not my job to educate you. And it's like, actually, yes, it's all of our jobs. It's, it can be annoying, it can be a burden. But like, if you want people to be on your side, you have to explain why they should be on your side and probably shouldn't shut the door on their face. If they're expressing good faith interests or even like light skepticism. Like, this is a convertible person. You're actually doing the opposite of your job.

• 50:51Ryan Holiday?

  Like, your job is not to make your side smaller and less accessible.

• 50:57Speaker 01

  To that point, that has actually been one of the areas that I would say candidly is, has been most surprising over the last 10 years. Is, I've had more and more people from, I'd say primarily southern and Midwest states, come up and very explicitly be like, I did not like you. Like, I did not like you. I, I didn't agree with what you were saying or how you were approaching it.

• 51:30Speaker 01

  And now I've had time, I've been able to reflect and also have a better understanding. And like, I was wrong.

• 51:36Ryan Holiday?

  Wow.

• 51:37Speaker 01

  That has been so revealing to me because typically you don't get people to a space where they're like, oh, you know what? I actually thought about this the wrong way. Like I was off basis here. And to openly and publicly say that, which to me gives me a lot of hope around like, how we collectively move forward and the fact that in doing this work, people can be moved. And it, in these instances, they're sharing very definitively, like, I was against you. Like I, I was very much.

• 52:13Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I could, I could see why from a personal level, that would be hard for you because you're like, hey, your indifference was part of the, like, it cost me a hundred and fifty million dollars. So or like, hey, where, where were you when everyone in the world was yelling at me? And, and so I can imagine you're probably relieved and excited. You know, you're like, welcome aboard, but also there's a personal part of you that's like, it was pretty lonely, man. And you haven't changed. Like, they just are, they've just gotten a little bit of perspective. So I could see, I could, I would think that would be difficult.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  It's a both and.

• 52:50Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 52:50Speaker 01

  Like it's, uh, I'll say on the personal side, I think this is the area that is probably more ego at play of like, yeah, if you didn't hold that position, my life, career, I mean, threats I've received could have looked drastically different.

• 53:07Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 53:08Speaker 01

  At the same time, I'm heartened by the fact that people who were so staunchly against me have realized like, oh, I actually just immediately reacted to something that I thought was very personal to me.

• 53:22Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  And I actually need to look at this a different way.

• 53:25Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 53:26Speaker 01

  And to me, having people go through that process of reflection and reaching those conclusions independently, that's such a significant shift. And it also, it's not lost on me. One, the environments that they're having that shift in. And then two, the ripple effects of that as well.

• 53:47Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 53:48Speaker 01

  I think that is important that while there's, while there's personal frustrations, and oftentimes it is, you have similar conversations or the same conversations over and over again. And it's like, do we really have to have this conversation again? Um, like we, we've done this. There is the opportunity on the other side of that, of people reaching, understanding.

• 54:13Speaker 01

  And are able to help build a better society on, um, coming out of that. We want it to happen faster.

• 54:19Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 54:20Speaker 01

  But there is the, a very human element of someone having to, to process it, understand it, internalize it, and then be able to put that into action.

• 54:29Ryan Holiday?

  When you look back 10 years later, are there things that you wished? Or is there a way you wished you'd done it differently? Right? Cause like the name of the game is persuasion, right? And so there's probably some element where you do it 20 different ways. It provokes the same reaction every time that it just took time and distance for people to come around. Maybe some people are just fundamentally not reachable. But I mean, even like dialing in from the sitting to the kneeling. Like, do you feel like if, if you'd started with kneeling, that it would have gone differently? Cause I'm just wondering from lessons learned, right? Like the name of the game is persuasion.

• 55:08Ryan Holiday?

  So how do you, it's not just about being morally correct, but it's about getting that message to be received. Do you think about how you might've done things differently?

• 55:19Speaker 01

  It's a great question. On the, the sitting and kneeling, I don't, I don't think there would have been a, a whole lot of differentiation there. Cause there, the method of protest often comes under scrutiny, but it's actually the message. That's the, the thing people are, are trying to divert from. The, the part that I think about a good amount, and this comes somewhat to that point around like persuasion. Because I saw within media, there was a, an element of like, oh, we want to talk to be able to get the soundbites, to be able to drive clicks. And oftentimes, um, those weren't good faith conversations. It was just like, hey, I need the bite. I'm going to go do it. I'm going to look good. Great. We'll keep going.

• 56:05Speaker 01

  That was a component that I was like, well, I don't love playing into that.

• 56:11Speaker 01

  Could I have used and leveraged that differently, uh, potentially? But the, the other part that I think about, uh, a good amount is I, I very much tried to approach things from a lens of like Ella Baker, where it's like, yes, we need strong leaders, but we need strong people collectively. And intentionally not centering myself in the conversation. And be like, well, every interview, every opportunity, I'm going to go out and I'm going to be front and center. And that didn't feel right to me. Um, and I tried to create space for other people to be able to step into that. Is that an area that things could have diverted and, and gone a little astray at times?

• 56:56Speaker 01

  Yes, but the, the implication that I was thinking through around that is like, I know they're trying to attack me individually and discredit me individually to try discredit the movement, the issues that are trying to be addressed. And like, is that the best approach? So that's one piece. And the second piece is in having detractors and people that weren't moving in good faith. I tried to be very intentional in not going tit for tat publicly around it. Because I didn't want that to become the conversation.

• 57:31Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 57:32Speaker 01

  I also think back and like, did that create space where it blurred the lines? And people weren't sure like, what is true and what was reality or where we should be headed?

• 57:46Ryan Holiday?

  Like your, your opponents were dominating the conversation and defining you in ways that you, by not responding, were not able to counteract as much as maybe you wish you had.

• 57:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, like that's a, that's a factor I think about. And I'll also say, not just, uh, opponents in the traditional sense of like, there are also people that I think were very opportunistic.

• 58:08Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 58:08Speaker 01

  We're like, oh, I'm going to leverage this to be able to raise my own position and profile and create opportunities.

• 58:14Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 58:14Speaker 01

  That actually, I don't think were intended to be able to drive the on the ground impact for people and actually solve and address the issues. But because there was so much trying to distract from the issues, part of the concern was like, if we go down that path, then the conversation becomes around like, why there's an issue and why there's back and forth versus trying to continue to stay centered on the issues and communities and the movement. And that's an area that I, I think back to, and I'm like, if I approach that differently, does that get us to a different place? I don't know, but it's an area I think about a decent amount.

• 58:52Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. One of the things in the book that gave me more empathy for your position was you were talking about that first Superbowl and your media training then, for the thing you're being paid millions of dollars to do is basically like, don't say anything stupid. Like, like they're like, don't, just don't screw it up. I mean, like even in that, where there's a lot of people's interest on, like, they're just sort of like throwing you guys to the wolves. So I can only imagine being thrown to a different set of wolves in a thing that you don't have a lot of experience in, where there's a, you know, sports interviews are mostly softball compared to, you know, sort of like culture war issues, right?

• 59:32Ryan Holiday?

  So like, suddenly you're like, you're having to answer questions from all different types of media, ungodly amounts of attention. You had to learn like a totally different game, very, very quickly with very high stakes.

• 59:49Speaker 01

  Yes. And I'll say the, the good part is in part, being a quarterback, you have to speak to the media three times a week.

• 59:56Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 59:56Speaker 01

  So you get, you get used to it, but the questions are drastically different.

• 59:59Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 1:00:00Speaker 01

  And the, the scope or aperture of those questions.

• 1:00:05Ryan Holiday?

  You're used to being under pressure, but not that kind of pressure.

• 1:00:09Speaker 01

  Well, it's not, I would say it's a, it's not even pressure in that way. It's like, within football, there's a limited set of questions that you're going to get.

• 1:00:18Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:18Speaker 01

  And at that point, for me, I've also been doing it for 20 plus years.

• 1:00:24Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  So like, the depth of knowledge within that topic, you could say or ask anything and

• 1:00:30Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:30Speaker 01

  you can pretty much go down any path. And it's like, I'll bring you back to where, where we need to go and like can connect all the things.

• 1:00:36Ryan Holiday?

  And there's the athlete cliches that you can say to get out of having to answer the questions.

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  We're going to do our best, right? You know, they have a great defense. We're going to prepare, we're going to execute the game plan, like.

• 1:00:48Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  And we're ready. Um, so it's like, you probably go back and play pretty much any athlete's interview will fall.

• 1:00:56Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:57Speaker 01

  Within that, that realm. But the, the aperture of questions and the range of questions becomes so drastically different that there is a lot more gotchas that, that people try to throw in there. And it also, for me, I was getting into a place where it's like, I may get a football question.

• 1:01:17Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  I may get a political question around the protest. I may get a question that is completely tangential to the protest. That is like, I, I don't know how we got to this topic, but like that's, that's there.

• 1:01:34Speaker 01

  And it could go any number of ways. So part of it was, I now have to mentally prepare how I think about each of those positions.

• 1:01:43Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  And that just becomes drastically more that you have to navigate.

• 1:01:50Speaker 01

  But the, the foundational piece for me was like, are we doing the things to help move us forward?

• 1:01:57Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  In navigating those questions. So new space and new factors at play.

• 1:02:02Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  But I think the, the training, to your point, like going to the Superbowl and those pieces, like, they help you prepare for some of that. You're just playing a little bit different realm.

• 1:02:16Ryan Holiday?

  So looking back at it these years later, again, you would think that people who are set for life would be more likely to get involved, to speak out, to be courageous, right? But again, we tend to see the opposite, which is like getting yours makes you more closed off or indifferent or constrained about what you're willing to say.

• 1:02:43Ryan Holiday?

  And I could see people looking at your story as confirmation for why that's the right way to do it. Look what happened to him, right? Like it cost him all this. It probably wasn't fun. I can imagine it wasn't fun. And it's not like, it's not like you solved the issue, right? Like it would be one thing if we were like on the other side of this. And like, you know, you can imagine Martin Luther King looking back and it's like, well, we did pass the Civil Rights Act, you know, like, like it was this movement and like they got to some level of like tangible cathartic resolution of the underlying issue that they felt called to speak about. Clearly, we're not only not there on the police issue, now we have this like larger issue of, of government overreach in all these other areas.

• 1:03:28Ryan Holiday?

  And people are being fired and kicked out of government for speaking up or being on the wrong side of things. So like, make the case for me that, that to somebody who's, who has something that they want to say, or has some inkling to get involved, like why they should do so?

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think about through a few different avenues. One goes back to just some of the bedrock of like who you are and your moral foundation. To me, I believe we collectively have an obligation to each other to be able to do that. Now, if you step back from that and you're like, you know what? There is no moral obligation, like now let's make the case from there. I think if we are looking at society, if you do not serve people and give them a place to be able to be successful and thrive, that is fundamentally going to hurt you. Like we see societies collapse because of that.

• 1:04:27Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 1:04:28Speaker 01

  So if you're in a position and you like the position that you're in, like you have an incentive to make sure that people are taken care of. So society continues. If you're looking at it from a purely self-interested standpoint. Now, the third part that I would say in relation to this is not everybody has to take action in the same way that I did. And there's different ways to be able to take action that may not drive the same, same consequences or same outcomes in that way. So I think there's different approaches that people can take to be able to do that. The overarching piece, I would say across all of those is if you want society to actually

• 1:05:09Speaker 01

  work, if you have any, any moral foundation as a person, like this is something that we should be doing.

• 1:05:19Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  And I will also say like, while there may be difficult times and oftentimes we look at, we look at the negatives that come along with it. And those are very real, they're consequential. On the flip side, it has also allowed me to build lifelong relationships that otherwise wouldn't have. It has allowed me to help and impact people's lives and I, in ways I otherwise wouldn't have been able to. It has allowed me to, to grow and develop as a person in ways that otherwise wouldn't have been able to. And I think when we look at trade-offs within the work that we're doing, I don't, I don't look at things as zero sum. Like I believe we can collectively all win.

• 1:06:02Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  There may be ways that we have to contribute more or in different ways. But to me, that's how we should be operating as a society. Like I think we have that obligation to each other.

• 1:06:16Ryan Holiday?

  And look, there's definitely costs of speaking up and to sort of acting from principle. But like, I just found like in my own life, and then also in the people I've studied and written about, like nobody looks back and they're like, I wish I did less. You know, like, like, I just like, I'm so glad I did nothing. You know? You're going to wish you, like the excuses and the rationalizations that we make tend not to age very well.

• 1:06:43Speaker 01

  No. To that point, if we look at a, a longer time horizon and trajectory, looking back on history, the people who fought for people to have a better life are the people that we revere today.

• 1:06:57Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:58Speaker 01

  Those are the people that everybody looks up to and says, oh, you know what? That's what we should collectively aspire to be and how we should aspire to operate. It's normally not the people who are, are the ones that are the oppressors, the rulers and making it difficult for people. Or the quiet ones, like whatever your motivations are, there, there's any number of motivations that you could have that would lead you down the path of, I need to be helping people, I need to be supporting them. Whether it is self-interest, whether it is a moral foundation of, I think people should be taken care of in this way and we should operate that way. If it's a, a sense of, well, I want that to be my legacy and how people think of me

• 1:07:40Speaker 01

  and it's driven from that place, like I know people's motivations will be different.

• 1:07:48Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:48Speaker 01

  And I, I know we can't have a goal of, I hope everybody's motivation is exactly the same, that I don't think that part is realistic. But I do think we can get people taking the same actions towards a goal to drive that outcome.

• 1:08:03Speaker 01

  And I think their interests will benefit from that, whatever they may be.

• 1:08:06Ryan Holiday?

  Speaking of those different motivations, like not everyone turned their back on you, not everyone blackballed you.

• 1:08:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:12Ryan Holiday?

  How do you think about those people that stood with you or in some cases kneeled with you? Like the definition of being a leader is you're out in front, but there's also something to be said about the people who see someone doing something scary and they're like, I want to help and support that person, or I'm not going to turn my back on that person.

• 1:08:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, first, so much love and admiration for all of those people. And that is, as everyone from my brother Eric Reid, who was the first person to take a knee with me and whose idea it was to take knee, to Megan Rapinoe, was the first woman and I believe the first player outside of football on a professional level to be able to take a knee and did it on an international stage. To, I remember reading about some of the, actually here in Texas, the Beaumont Bulls,

• 1:09:08Speaker 01

  their team protesting, taking a knee. Two people that I talk to to this day that like, you know what? I don't turn the NFL on. Like I haven't watched in 10 years.

• 1:09:18Ryan Holiday?

  Wow.

• 1:09:19Speaker 01

  And they continue supporting in that way while, while they're doing other work. So I've been able to, to be able to, to spend time with and be able to meet and engage with a lot of people that have been supportive.

• 1:09:34Ryan Holiday?

  I'm sure there are people that messaged you prior, like, you know, I'm sure there's tons of people who gave moral support and encouragement and.

• 1:09:40Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:09:41Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:42Speaker 01

  There's millions of others that I hope I get to engage with in my, in my lifetime. But to me, what it speaks to is there's an overwhelming desire and want for us to collectively be better. And there's people that are willing to do that work.

• 1:09:57Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:58Speaker 01

  And that gets me excited. Like that is part of what keeps me going. And it, it is also not lost on me that those people in some of the most difficult times were people that helped keep me going.

• 1:10:12Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  I think that, that is crucial for us as well collectively is like, make sure we have the proper support systems in place because you're not going to accomplish it just by yourself.

• 1:10:23Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. And in some of those cases, those people probably had more to lose or were coming from a less, a place of less security. And that's always the, the beautiful thing when, when sort of, when you see people coalesce around something, when people come, come together, especially when they might disagree on other things or, you know, come from different backgrounds or different places or that's, yeah, that, that is the beautiful thing. When you see a sort of a true sort of diverse coalition of people who've come together as one about one thing.

• 1:10:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. To your point, there, there were a good amount of people that I did not expect to show up for me that did.

• 1:10:59Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:00Speaker 01

  And not because I, I had any sense that they felt otherwise, just I didn't know where they stood on any political issue.

• 1:11:08Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 1:11:08Speaker 01

  Like conversations had not come up. I was like, I, I have no idea.

• 1:11:14Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:16Speaker 01

  And seeing people show up in significant ways. And also seeing a lot of people growing and, and stepping into more leadership roles is part of that too.

• 1:11:26Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:26Speaker 01

  It, it was beautiful in that sense in being able to get to, to see how people were moving. And I'll say that's, that is one thing that I think was very unique about the protest for me was, I don't think it's very often that someone gets to see so clearly how people feel about them in such a definitive way. While there was chaos and all that, it was also very revealing to me of like, the playing field became very clear.

• 1:11:59Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:00Speaker 01

  Which made it easier to be able to navigate some of it. And also allowed us to, to have an understanding of like where the work needed to be done.

• 1:12:09Ryan Holiday?

  Was it hard when, you know, some people who were total strangers just sort of came to your unconditional support and then people who were not strangers, you know, had trouble doing that? Like that, that can be one of the hard, when you make those hard decisions, you're like, this person I've never met is not struggling with it, but meanwhile, my parents are having to come to terms with it. You're like, how's this work? You know, you know?

• 1:12:29Speaker 01

  Like it's an interesting piece and I, I try to have a level of understanding in it in relation to like, why, why do you struggle to see this? And I think oftentimes it's preconceived notions, it's assumptions, it's some of their experiences and maybe where, where they grew up. All of those things come into play. But there is a sense of like, all right, come, come on, we have to, we have to get moving. So I think that's a factor. But to me, going back to that exposure piece, like I think that becomes critical to be able to get people into conversations they otherwise wouldn't have.

• 1:13:09Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:10Speaker 01

  And those, those conversations are going to be uncomfortable at times.

• 1:13:12Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 1:13:13Speaker 01

  That's, that's part of it. But we have to be able to, to push people and pull people and bring them along in that process. But also having, having a sense of the people that I didn't know that came out in support, those were moments that I was like, oh man, we.

• 1:13:30Speaker 01

  We can accomplish this.

• 1:13:31Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:32Speaker 01

  Like, I remember the, the first time that we took a knee down in San Diego. It was a, it was a moment that there was already a lot of, a lot of national coverage, conversation. San Diego being a, a big military town, which military and the protests got conflated into every, everything. But I remember there was a, there was a young black woman that had, uh, I believe it was a capital for president's side. And I remember walking off the field, uh, after pregame warmups and seeing it. And I was like, you know what? Amidst all the chaos, I have no idea where she's from, but she made sure she came out.

• 1:14:15Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:16Speaker 01

  Like, I think about the fact that she wanted to make sure I knew I had support.

• 1:14:21Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, that's beautiful.

• 1:14:22Speaker 01

  And like, to me, I, I look at those moments, one, I'm, I'm grateful for them. I also, I look at them less as like personal moments and more around like, she wants to make sure that the work and the cause continue. And this is a way to be able to do that and to be able to, to show support.

• 1:14:41Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:42Speaker 01

  And to be able to help keep pushing in that way. So like that, those moments become special.

• 1:14:48Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:48Speaker 01

  And then being able to build with those people, like, that has shown up across the country, has shown up internationally. Like, that gets me excited.

• 1:14:56Ryan Holiday?

  And I think it's worth, it's like, anybody can be that person. Like, not everyone can be you, an NFL player, deciding to sort of take this very public, enormous risk. You think about like, there's this idea of moral luck. Like, some people are in the right place at the right time. They have the resources, the position, whatever, and, and they can be the center of the storm. But that person who is just sort of giving them the nod and saying like, hey, I see you and I'm on your side. Anybody can be that person to somebody doing that. You know, it's mu, it's much, it's not easy because it's still an incredibly profound and meaningful gesture. But, you know, and anybody can be that human to human

• 1:15:41Ryan Holiday?

  contact of like, hey, I am not forsaking you. Like, hey, I, I'm wishing you success. Like, you're not alone in this. That's a beautiful gesture that like, everyone should try to extend as often as they can.

• 1:15:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. I love that framing because I've gotten asked a good amount, like, well, what can I do?

• 1:16:02Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:03Speaker 01

  And there's, I mean, there's any number of ways that people can show up. It doesn't have to look the same.

• 1:16:09Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:09Speaker 01

  And it likely won't be the same. Like, we're not, everybody's not in the same positions. We're not operating in the same spaces or industries. Like, all of those things are factors.

• 1:16:21Speaker 01

  But we all can take action, whether it's supporting someone, doing the work, whether it's going out and doing it directly. Like, there's a lot of ways that that can show up. One of the things, uh, that you made me think of in relation to that was, I also had this moment right after the protest. The headlines are coming, like, the, the wave is coming through. And our, our center, uh, Dan Kilgore, I love Dan. We came in the same year, San Francisco together. He's from Tennessee, big, big white guy. And he texts me on the side and was like, first, how are you doing? Like, are you, are you okay?

• 1:17:05Speaker 01

  And then also, like, I don't understand everything that you're talking about, but I would love to sit down, have a conversation.

• 1:17:13Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  And be able to better understand, like, why this came about. And to me, there was, there was such a beauty within that because it was like, first, let me check on you as a person.

• 1:17:28Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 1:17:29Speaker 01

  A very human element of like, hey, are, are we good?

• 1:17:33Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:34Speaker 01

  Are we safe? Like?

• 1:17:36Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:17:37Speaker 01

  And then, now let's have a conversation of understanding, like, why? And then what that means? Like, what does that mean for him?

• 1:17:45Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:46Speaker 01

  What ways?

• 1:17:47Ryan Holiday?

  Anything for me?

• 1:17:48Speaker 01

  Like?

• 1:17:48Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:49Speaker 01

  How can we engage around this?

• 1:17:50Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:50Speaker 01

  Um, and that doesn't necessarily mean that we'll agree on everything, but it first came from a space of like, we're in this together. Like, I want to make sure you have the understanding of that. And I think oftentimes that's missed in a, a broader conversation of like, first, let's start from like, are people good?

• 1:18:12Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:12Speaker 01

  And then like, let, let's start talking about the issues and solving them from there. But like, let's make sure people are good.

• 1:18:18Ryan Holiday?

  That's beautiful. Well, you want to go next door? I got some books for you.

• 1:18:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's do it.