Do You Care Too Much What Other People Think of You? Avoid Conflict? Say Yes When You Shouldn't? | Dr. Ingrid Clayton, Fawning Expert

Practical tools to turn down the volume on fawning. Dr. Ingrid Clayton https://www.ingridclayton.com/ is a licensed clinical psychologist with a master's in transpersonal psychology and a Ph. D. in clinical psychology. Her book is FAWNING: Why the Need to Please Makes Us Lose Ourselves—and How to Find our Way Back. https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/779579/fawning-by-dr-ingrid-clayton/ In this episode we talk about: What is fawning, actually Chronic vs situational fawning The physiological ramifications of fawning How power plays into all of this Ways to get clarity around unseen bruises and wounds that drive your behavior Owning your anger – and how to express it in healthy ways How to know if you're a fawner Practical steps to unfawn Accessible approaches to regulating your nervous system How to set boundaries Fawning and un-fawning in a work context, specifically And her observation, which I've been thinking about a lot, that wounding happens in relationships… but so does healing This holiday season, 10% Happier is teaming up with dozens of podcasts for an ambitious goal: to lift three entire villages in Rwanda out of extreme poverty. Join us by visiting GiveDirectly.org/Dan http://givedirectly.org/Dan and supporting the #PodsFightPoverty campaign. Related Episodes: How To Regulate Your Nervous System For Stress, Anxiety, And Trauma | Peter Levine https://www.danharris.com/p/how-to-regulate-your-nervous-system?utm_source=publication-search How To Handle Your Demons | Richard Schwartz https://www.danharris.com/p/how-to-handle-your-demons-dick-richard?utm_source=publication-search How (and Why) to Hug Your Inner Dragons | Richard Schwartz https://www.danharris.com/p/how-and-why-to-hug-your-inner-dragons-ac1?utm_source=publication-search This Neurobiologist Wants You To Ask One Question To Reframe Anxiety, Depression, And Trauma | Dr. Bruce Perry (Co-Interviewed by Dan's Wife, Bianca!) https://www.danharris.com/p/this-neurobiologist-wants-you-to-bd7?utm_source=publication-search Join Dan's online community here http://www.danharris.com/ Follow Dan on social: Instagram https://bit.ly/3tGigG5, TikTok https://bit.ly/3FOA84J Subscribe to our YouTube Channel https://bit.ly/3FybRzD To advertise on the show, contact [email protected] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/10HappierwithDanHarris

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• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:32Dan Harris?

  It's the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris.

• 0:46Dan Harris?

  Hello, my fellow suffering beings. How are we doing today? Here's a question for you. It's a long question. Do any of the following behaviors describe you, either chronically or episodically? Do you find yourself caring too much about what other people think about you? Do you say yes when you don't want to? Do you avoid conflict, sometimes pathologically? Do you appease other people? Do you go along to get along? And are you frequently in a state of hypervigilance and anxiety? If any of that describes you, if you answered yes to any of those questions, you may be in the habit of something called fawning. Let me just say here from the outset, some people are in a chronic state of fawning. Others do it occasionally. I think I'm in the latter category. Either way, there are practical tools

• 1:31Dan Harris?

  to turn down the volume on fawning, or as my guest today says, to unfawn. Dr. Ingrid Clayton is a licensed clinical psychologist and the author of a book called Fawning. In this conversation, we talk about what fawning is, chronic versus situational fawning, the physiological ramifications of fawning, how power plays into all of this, ways to get some clarity around unseen bruises and wounds that might drive your behavior, owning your anger and how to express it in healthy ways, how to know if you're a foner, some practical steps to unfawn, accessible approaches to regulating your nervous system, how to set boundaries, fawning and unfawning in a work context, and her observation, which I've been thinking about a lot,

• 2:15Dan Harris?

  that wounding happens in relationships, but so does healing.

• 2:22Dan Harris?

  This episode comes with a guided meditation for our subscribers over at danharris.com. It comes from our Teacher of the Month, Jeff Warren, and it is designed to help you withstand outside pressures and set boundaries, in other words, to unfawn. Jeff will be doing our next live meditation and Q and A session tomorrow at 4 Eastern. So if you sign up at danharris.com, you can get our meditations that come with our Monday, Wednesday episodes, and also get invited to our weekly live meditation sessions. Finally, if you want to make a real difference this giving season, 10% Happier is part of Pods Fight Poverty, teaming up with dozens of podcasts like The Happiness Lab with Laurie Santos, Hidden Brain, and many more, to do something big, to lift three entire villages

• 3:06Dan Harris?

  in Rwanda out of extreme poverty. We're shooting for a million dollars raised before the end of the year, which will lift over 700 families out of poverty. So visit givedirectly.org/dan to join Pods Fight Poverty. That's givedirectly.org/dan, and we will put a link in the show notes. Let's do something awesome this holiday season. Okay, we'll get started with Ingrid Clayton right after this.

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• 4:30Dan Harris?

  Dr. Ingrid Clayton, welcome to the show.

• 4:33Speaker 04

  Thanks for having me.

• 4:34Dan Harris?

  It's a pleasure. I'm gonna start with a very, very basic definitional question. What is fawning?

• 4:41Speaker 04

  Fawning is a relational trauma response where you either appease or caretake to lessen the relational threats.

• 4:50Dan Harris?

  So my mind goes right to Stockholm syndrome, you know, like where somebody's held hostage and makes nice with whoever took them hostage. Is that in the right zone?

• 5:02Speaker 04

  I think that's a very extreme example, but essentially fawning is an extension of what we know about fight, flight, or freeze. These are unconscious instincts. They are reflexive in nature, designed to keep us safe. And the reality is, the body will always prioritize safety and survival. And we are relational beings, right? We're hardwired for relationships. We're dependent on our caregivers for longer than any other species. And the fawn response is essentially connection as protection. It's leaning into these very relationships, sometimes that are causing you harm, because it's sort of the last house on the block. It's when

• 5:44Speaker 04

  a fight response might make things worse, when a flight response is not available to you. So fawning becomes this really genius adaptation to survive the environments that you're having to live in, sort of breakfast to bedtime.

• 5:59Dan Harris?

  So as you said, being held hostage is an extreme

• 6:02Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 6:03Dan Harris?

  example, that most of us don't luckily find ourselves in that position, although there are people in that position at this very moment we should be thinking of.

• 6:09Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 6:10Dan Harris?

  However, we're all raised by somebody. And if our connection with our caregivers growing up, if those connections are insecure, unsafe, one

• 6:21Dan Harris?

  Way that a young person might achieve safety is by making nice with the person who's actually doing them harm.

• 6:28Speaker 04

  That's right, and it also extends beyond the family system to include all of the systems of power that we're navigating on a daily basis. So if you think about patriarchy and racism and classism, sort of the body understands where it resides in the hierarchy. And again, this idea that, you know, we've talked about these behaviors fawning for a long time, but kind of couched them in the language of people pleasing or even codependency. And these imply conscious choice. They imply a rational decision to do these things. And yet, the body will lean into the response that it believes will have the most success in any given moment.

• 7:10Speaker 04

  So if my body knows when I walk out of the house that I'm a woman, for instance, that I might not be as safe with a man who is perhaps twice my size, it's not going to lean into a fight response, right? Fawning tends to be the one that you can smile and maybe even flirt and hopefully walk away unscathed.

• 7:31Dan Harris?

  Can you give me some other examples where people might engage in fawning behaviors?

• 7:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think we see it a lot in the workplace where the fawning person is the one who tends to take on more than their fair share, their overdoing, their overvolunteering. And yet, they're not asking for a raise or the appropriate title, they're sort of waiting to be validated and seen and hope that if they do enough and overextend themselves, maybe one day they'll arrive. And they find themselves hitting ceilings and feeling unseen and resentful. So there's this sense that we're waiting for external validation in order to exist at all. All of our safety resides, in a chronic fawn response, all of our safety resides outside

• 8:20Speaker 04

  of our own body. So the basic idea is, do you validate me? Do you give me permission? Are you mad at me? We're constantly navigating from the outside in. And the sad consequence of that is ultimately self-abandonment, right? Because- If I'm really preoccupied with you and hypervigilant, I'm not attuned to my own self. I don't have a sense of autonomy or agency. And yet, it's important to name that the person that's fawning doesn't feel the loss of self. They're oriented towards the safety, towards the connection, towards the goal, in other words.

• 9:03Dan Harris?

  You said something earlier about in a chronic fawning response, X or Y things happen. What's the difference between a chronic fawninger and the rest of us who may engage in fawning behavior in the right circumstances or the wrong circumstances?

• 9:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I think childhood trauma is a good example where, like I said, you're dependent on your caregivers, fighting or even running away might not be possible. When you are having to lean in and caretake an absent or neglectful caregiver, or when there's more overt abuse, whether that's emotional, physical, or sexual abuse, and you're having to sort of appease your way through those things. When you're doing that all the time, while your brain and body are developing, it becomes this feeling, and I've seen this in my practice so many times, people just think it's their personality. They just go, I'm just being nice.

• 10:04Speaker 04

  It's all so deeply conditioned, right? We are taught to fawn. We are taught to prioritize and privilege other people's feelings. Just say you like the gift. Just say thank you. Essentially, in all these little micro moments, day after day, abandon yourself, privilege somebody else, and that's the way to keep yourself safe. So this becomes chronic, where the body is leaning into a fawn response, whether it senses that there's a threat or not. It's like 10 steps ahead, going, I'm never going to allow myself to be that vulnerable again. And I talk about it, it's like a shield or camouflage, right? But we don't know that it's operating as us.

• 10:49Dan Harris?

  You said that we're taught to fawn in all these little ways, but I'm interpolating back through my life as a straight, white dude. I don't know that I was taught to fawn that much. I think the message I picked up from the culture is, go get yours.

• 11:04Speaker 04

  Yes, well, I think you named all of the reasons for that, right? Straight, white, male. And so generally speaking, and fawning is not just for women. It's not a gendered response at all. But generally speaking, I think most women see that they were taught to fawn, care, take and smile and please. I mean, these are attributes that you could also just name as feminine. Whereas boys are like, you know, go get your hands dirty. Rough and tumble is allowed. You're allowed to have a healthy fight response. Go have a voice, go speak up for yourself. Right? So there is some differentiation there.

• 11:43Dan Harris?

  You have a lot of thoughts about how we can deal with this, both as a, somebody with a chronic fawn response and just those of us who in the right situation. And for sure, I can think of situations where I fawn. So we'll get practical on both of these levels. But let me just spend a few minutes on you and your experience. There is a reason this issue is so salient for you. Can you tell us a little bit about your background?

• 12:08Speaker 04

  Yes, well, I start the book fawning from me being a 13 year old girl, growing up with a stepfather that I now know was grooming me, but I did not have that language for many decades. I think like a lot of complex trauma survivors, we go, well, my experience wasn't that bad and these other people had it worse. And I could point to all of the things in fact that I did have, whether it was a roof over my head and family vacations and such. And so there's this sense that I'm just being ridiculous and I need to be over it already. But at the same time, this patterning was woven so deeply into my body that long after I moved out of that house, moved hundreds and even thousands of miles away,

• 12:51Speaker 04

  I was still the same person, really stuck in this chronic fawn response. And long before I had the language of fawning, I mean, there's a reason I have three degrees in psychology and I've been to all the retreats and I've sat on a million therapist couches. I was hungry to solve this. Equation, this feeling of being stuck, this feeling of not having the healthy reciprocal relationships that I saw so many others having. And the solutions that were offered in the end were more harmful than helpful. Because they sound like, well, Ingrid, why would you care what someone thinks about you? You're amazing.

• 13:34Speaker 04

  And on a conscious level, I go, well, yeah, why would I care what somebody thinks about me? You know, and it sounds so obvious and so accessible. But my body, this more primitive part of me, was still orienting towards safety and it did not care about my opinion or your opinion. The roots go deeper. And that's what I really love about looking at the physiology, you know, the nervous system. Because this is the primary mover, right? Not my opinion about the thing. And secondly, this lens of complex trauma puts my experience back in context. So whereas things like codependency or people pleasing, we go, well, what's wrong with you?

• 14:19Speaker 04

  Why can't you just set a healthy boundary? Right? Again, it seems so obvious and everyone has access. And then when I couldn't do it, I feel even more ashamed. There's this blame, there's this feeling of, oh, if it's that simple, why can't I do it? In other words, we've taken what really is a systemic problem and we've put it in the individual's body and we're saying, you're dysfunctional, knock it off already. And what fawning allows us to do is say, my body actually adapted in this really genius way to a dysfunctional environment. And this reduces the shame that I've been carrying my whole life.

• 15:02Speaker 04

  So what's the barrier for healing in almost any area is very often shame. Shame is holding us hostage. So, once we can reduce the shame and I can go, ah. You mean I make sense? You mean I made sense from the very beginning? Now I can start to avail myself of more choices and the flexibility that I hope we can all have. But ultimately, for me, it was not until then, right? That was the entry point. So after trying to unpack this for so many decades in my life and feeling like this was the piece to the puzzle, I absolutely feel like it's this calling to share this this new language, right? Because fawning's always been around. It's just we haven't been having this conversation.

• 15:48Dan Harris?

  Right, fight, flight, freeze have taken up all the airtime.

• 15:51Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 15:52Dan Harris?

  Can you just say a little bit more about you? You use the phrase healthy reciprocal relationships. You saw other people have them and you didn't. In those years when you were struggling to find a name for what was ailing you, how was your chronic fawn response showing up in your life?

• 16:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, so fawning looks different depending on the context. And I can sort of map it out based on both my experience with my stepfather and my mom. So my mom was more absent. She was neglectful. I was asking for help and she was saying, well, Ingrid, I think you're making it all up. In this way, my fawn response leaned into her to almost caretake or endow her with resources that I hope she would have, right? Fawners are really good at seeing the solution for other people's lives and then trying to make it happen. In essence, because if I can help you to stand, maybe one day you can also show up for me, right? I needed my mom and she wasn't there. But on the other side of that coin was my stepfather,

• 16:51Speaker 04

  who was moving in and coming for me. And fawning there is like, how do I hold on to a shred of self in the face of exploitation and abuse and being sexualized? Okay, so this is what I was navigating day in, day out, again, as my body's developing. So when I go out into the world now, my only sense of relational safety.

• 17:14Speaker 04

  Is in relation to neglect and exploitation. It's like those dynamics sort of turn on my body and the world and it goes, well, I know how to. It's almost like that's my currency, right? That's my language. It's familiar to me. And so this is one reason that our trauma gets reenacted over and over and over. It's because this was my only blueprint for how to relate in the world. I see that you have deficits and I go, oh, I know how to help you, right? It's the other reason I became a therapist. I'm gonna help you and once I do, then you're gonna be able to turn around and see my worth and my value and show up for me too. The problem is, of course, that never happened.

• 17:59Speaker 04

  I was waiting and hoping and helping a whole lot to my own detriment.

• 18:05Dan Harris?

  And did you find in the middle of all of that, you were caring too much what other people thought about you? I guess that was in part the driver for the caring and non reciprocal.

• 18:14Speaker 04

  Yes, because I almost don't exist unless you tell me that I'm worthy or valuable or matter at all. Again, this isn't a conscious thing. I'm not aware that this is happening, but it's sort of the air that I'm breathing. It's just over and over and over again, finding myself in this situation. It wasn't just romantic relationships. It was friendships. It was mentorships. It shows up in every relationship.

• 18:41Dan Harris?

  You said that you got interested in the physiology and the nervous system explanations and ramifications of all of this. Can you say a little bit more about that?

• 18:50Speaker 04

  Yes, I think that working from a trauma-informed lens allows me to see and understand the roots of these behaviors as unconscious and reflexive. One, we now know that fawning is a hybrid trauma response. So if you think about one side of the font and response has that fight-flight energy. That's the sympathetic nervous system. That's the. Adrenaline and the racing heartbeat, it's very mobilizing. This is the part that has us leaning into the relationships. But at the same time, we're experiencing this hypo-arousal, right? The other end of the spectrum of trauma responses that collapse or submit.

• 19:34Speaker 04

  It's this down regulation or dissociation. It's where we're disconnecting from self. So these are now happening at the same time. And just recognizing that, I go, yes, of course, that's what was happening. And of course, if I'm disconnected from me in order to prioritize you, it makes sense that I don't even understand that this is what I'm doing, right? Sometimes we're so disconnected from self. Maybe you have a sense that you're betraying your values or your needs. I think I certainly had that with my stepdad. I had a sense that I do not like you, but I need you to like me.

• 20:15Speaker 04

  But other times, we are so dissociated and disconnected, we start to really believe. And I've seen this with many clients in my practice. They go, no, Ingrid, this is my person. I love them. They love me more than I've ever been loved in my whole life. They are so believing in that person's position in their life and the love story that they've told, that they cannot see that the abuse is even happening.

• 20:40Dan Harris?

  Another thing you said that I wanted to follow up on is the pernicious role of shame for you and actually for all of us when it comes to just like dealing with our own shit.

• 20:50Speaker 04

  Well, the way that I see it is, first of all, if you do have an experience of relational trauma, you're shamed in the sense of worth is the wound, right? So we go, ah, the people that are meant to love me and care for me, they threw me away essentially, or they don't see me at all and completely invalidated. So boom, there's the first instance of shame. Then for a lot of us, and this was my experience too, you go and you try to assert yourself or you ask for help. You step into this trying to have a healthy voice and people go, you know, we're toxically positive or we spiritually bypass or we tell people just let it go and forgive and accept. And all these platitudes that sound well-meaning,

• 21:35Speaker 04

  but they ultimately make the person go, oh, now it's even worse because I tried to speak up and take care of myself. And No help is there. So boom, more shame. And then lastly, if you're engaging in fawning, like I said, there is a sense that I'm not showing up for my full sense of self with my needs and my values intact. Now shame is even more entrenched.

• 22:03Dan Harris?

  We had a guest on within the last 18 months. I'm forgetting his last name, Bruce, is a therapist and he wrote a book called What Happened to You?

• 22:12Speaker 04

  Oh, yes, yes, Perry.

• 22:14Dan Harris?

  Bruce Perry, awesome guy. Bruce, if you're listening, you should come back on the show. I love you. And this is kind of reminding me of him in that when you reframe, you had this question, it seems like, what's the matter with me? And then when you got a diagnosis and it all kind of made it sense, you're like, no, that was the wrong question. It was what happened to me, what wired me for these behaviors?

• 22:36Speaker 04

  That's right. I think that is such a profound shift that ultimately we need to make in the mental health field in general. And I think trauma is a prime mover in changing that conversation. So yes, this is definitely another aspect of that. I don't think anyone really can move into greater healing from anything. When you're told, well, it's your fault. Knock it off already, you know? Just stop doing that. It's like, well, if I could have stopped doing that, I would have stopped doing that. And I've tried everything else. So it's a really important shift. And in fact, I think other shifts that felt important to me in the writing and research were even this idea of sort of broken or healed.

• 23:19Speaker 04

  There's lots of these binary responses, right? Safe or unsafe. And the truth is, most of us are in the messy middle of all of that all the time. And yet we're made to believe that there's some magic finish line out there where I'm going to be all healed and all better and never have a trigger or a feeling of not being safe in the world. And that's just not true. So I do not want to continue to perpetuate that lie ultimately, especially as a mental health professional. I think that might be a great marketing tool. Come to me and I'm going to help you figure it all out. But I think what's more helpful is sitting beside someone and being like, wow, we both have these bodies and we're navigating all of these tricky things all the time.

• 24:04Speaker 04

  What's that like for you? You know, that genuine curiosity rather than pathologizing lens?

• 24:11Dan Harris?

  Yeah, in the book, you say, healing is a process, not a finish line. There's just layers of discovery and then grief and then more discovery and more grief. Or to put it in a more positive way, limitless opportunities for growth. One of the things, as somebody who like was most of my life pretty anti-self-help and definitely, you know, wary of spirituality, one of the things that I really like about the Dharma world, when I founded the Buddhist world, is that the teachers were not, for the most part, holding themselves up as avatars of perfection. You know, I knew, I know many Buddhist teachers who've gone through divorces or business failures or interpersonal conflict, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Jack Kornfield, one of the great living Western masters, wrote a book, After the Ecstasy, The Laundry.

• 24:54Dan Harris?

  You can have these incredible, like, sort of mountain top experiences, and yet there's always more work to do. I just think that's a really healthy message to send.

• 25:04Speaker 04

  Likewise, it feels really important to me. And also, talking specifically about the fawn response, I think part of my job is that I have to acknowledge that with my credentials or with my career, I am in a position of power. People are coming to me and asking for help. And if I stay on that mountain top and someone has a chronic fawn response, I'm absolutely asking them to continue to fawn for my benefit. So I can feel like I'm being helpful and I can feel like a good therapist. And so many of my clients have shared with me like this feeling like, I need the pat on the head, right? I want to feel like your favorite client. I know what this feels like too, to be sitting in front of a therapist where like,

• 25:47Speaker 04

  someone might suggest to me back in the day, okay, Ingrid, can you try this thing? And close your eyes. And I'm like, yes, yes, I can do that. And I close my eyes and all I'm thinking is, how long do I have to sit here to let them know that I really tried? There was no ability to be like, I don't want to close my eyes. I have to prioritize what you think I should do. And there you go again, it's the fawn response. And it's happening throughout therapy. And now I'm performing my own personal therapy. So I have to go first. I have to flatten that hierarchy and be like, I'm just another person in the world. Yes, I have some tools and some information, but I don't have it all figured out. And I could never have all the answers for someone that I see for 50 minutes.

• 26:32Speaker 04

  Once a week, I barely have the answers for myself. It's not the point.

• 26:37Dan Harris?

  It really does seem like power is at the center of all of this.

• 26:40Speaker 04

  I think that it is, right? Because if you think even about the animal kingdom and that threat responses are animal defenses at the heart of it. And you go, well, the lion, the king of the jungle, he's got a healthy fight response. He can roar, he can set boundaries, like, get off my territory. But we're looking at all of us human beings as though each of us are the lion. It's just not true. We have to look at these systems of power and hierarchies and where we fit in. And ultimately, for me and my experience and so many of my clients, a fight response, it's as though it was snuffed out. It made things worse. Why would my body lean into that

• 27:21Speaker 04

  again? And now you're telling me, well, just go do it one more time. And my body's like, essentially, fuck you. Like, I know what's gonna happen there. So the other piece, if we look at it in terms of the context of fight, flight, and freeze, I think why this conversation has gone missing for so long, one of the reasons is fawning is hiding in plain sight. If you look at a fight response, it's sort of obvious that you don't want this thing to happen. You're engaging in conflict, you're fighting back. Similar with running, right? Running away. Fawning, you're literally leaning into the relationship that's causing you harm. And so this is another area where we get shamed and blamed, but it's also why we haven't been having the conversation

• 28:06Speaker 04

  in this context of threat response, because it seems so counterintuitive. And yet, when you really unpack it, and you look at me as a 13-year-old girl in that hot tub, what was my other choice than to smile and go along to get along, and then eventually peel myself out of there and go into the house where I could, you know, exhale for just a moment? It's sometimes all you've got.

• 28:32Dan Harris?

  I'm sorry that happened to you. That sucks.

• 28:34Speaker 04

  Oh, that's kind. Thank you.

• 28:36Dan Harris?

  You know, you kind of brought us back to shame again, and how a way to If not a race, at least mitigate shame as a pernicious force that blocks us from, you know, seeing things clearly and being able to grow slash heal or whatever. One of the interesting things about putting a diagnosis on something is that it can not only reduce your own shame, but it can reduce, and this is where things get a little tricky, it can reduce your anger toward other people. I was actually having a long conversation over dinner with my wife last night, who's very psychologically minded, and we were talking about somebody close to her in her life who has hurt her a lot and recently got a diagnosis that actually explained a lot of that behavior.

• 29:18Dan Harris?

  And my wife was saying, as soon as I heard about the diagnosis, my anger was reduced by 50%. Now, it doesn't excuse the behavior.

• 29:26Speaker 04

  Right.

• 29:27Dan Harris?

  But it does explain it and put it in context in a way that can be really clarifying. So I wonder if you think I'm on to something here or I'm off track?

• 29:35Speaker 04

  No, what comes to mind is that maybe she wasn't validated by that person necessarily because they came back and they said, oh, I'm sorry, you know, I've been such a jerk. But getting that information was a form of validation, like, oh, this is real, right? I think a lot of times when we're talking about essentially emotional rupture or abuse is it doesn't feel real. We continue to discount it, like, well, if you don't have physical bruises, or we have this like measuring stick of harm, and we're like, well, is it really that bad? And yet, for most of my clients, what they're coming in with are these unseen wounds and

• 30:17Speaker 04

  bruises that they're carrying around, similar to your wife's. And what it's been lacking is someone to say, like, that was real, that happened, and I'm so sorry. Interestingly, just moments ago, when you heard that little snippet of my story, even you just pausing for a moment and being a real human being and saying, I'm sorry that happened to you, like, it's not the point of being on podcasts, but I can't tell you how many conversations I've had where that doesn't happen. We are very accustomed to just moving along and on to the next, and being seen is a salve. So I imagine that that was a piece of what she was able to experience.

• 30:57Dan Harris?

  Yeah, I want to come back to the being seen as a salve very quickly, but I do want to say, just on what I was trying to point at. In part with having these psychological models that allow you to understand the way we all work. Oh, that's borderline personality disorder. That's narcissism, whatever. It can be weaponized. Actually, we have a podcast episode coming up about how these psychological terms can be weaponized and misused.

• 31:22Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 31:23Dan Harris?

  But properly understood and properly deployed, it can, I think, turn down the volume on this kind of charismatic nebulous rage that we feel with people on the world stage who are doing things we disagree with, our neighbors who are saying stupid shit and, you know, community board meetings, whatever. If you see it through the lens of what happened to you, instead of what's the matter with you. Again, this is not to excuse, this is not to fawn. This is really just about your own inner management so that you can respond more effectively.

• 31:54Speaker 04

  What's interesting to me is that you said it brought your wife's rage down 50%. And I go, that sounds about right. Because you're talking about an intellectual understanding. So I was just listening recently to your show with Dr. Peter Levine, the founder of somatic experiencing. And what his work tells us, and a lot of work in trauma tells us, is that that part of the brain is actually disconnected from, speaks a different language from where trauma is stored, right? From the wisdom of the gut. And so for those that really identify with the fawn response, what tends to be very common is that we're always looking for the reason, oh, I know they did that because. And then we pretend like that

• 32:37Speaker 04

  solves the rest of the 50% of the upset, and it does not. So now we have to go to the next step and go, what does it look like for me to own my anger? In fact, it tends to be a really important part of this ongoing process. It's like we're tending this fire that's been dormant in our own body, and yet that is our life force. So that kindling, that reconnection to, I'm allowed to be mad. That was bypassed over and over and over again. And listen, if we could just do the analysis and be done, I would have been healed a long time ago. I can write a story for anyone about why they come by something honestly. And it did not help me heal. It kept me stuck.

• 33:24Dan Harris?

  Coming up, Dr. Ingrid Clayton talks about owning your anger and how to express it in healthy ways, some practical steps around how to know if you're a foner, some steps to unfawn, and the crucial goal that might not be so obvious, and the importance of how to move away from binary thinking.

• 33:43Speaker 05

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• 34:45Dan Harris?

  Say a little bit more about owning your anger, because anger, in a Buddhist sense, in many spiritual and psychological circles, is not something that's venerated.

• 34:55Speaker 04

  Well, you know, my experience with that is actually today, as we're recording, I'm 30 years sober. So I essentially grew up in a 12-step program, which has a spiritual foundation, and I received the same message. In fact, we were told like, anger is a luxury. Resentment is the number one offender, and it's going to lead me back to drinking more than anything. And I took that very seriously for a very long time. We only focus on my side of the street, not what anybody else did. I did that, I wrote a million inventories. And listen, let me be clear, I am so grateful for my sobriety. It's the foundation for everything else. I love that community. It has saved my life.

• 35:37Speaker 04

  And some of those principles, as the founders, 99 men, by the way.

• 35:43Speaker 04

  As they sort of laid them out, kept me stuck in a chronic phone response. This message that I meant to get out of myself and help other people. Well, that's all I'd been doing my whole life. I knew how to help other people. I didn't know how to inhabit a self at all, just to begin there. So as much as, of course, I didn't want to go back to drinking. Ultimately, a part of my process was allowing myself to feel the anger. And listen, there's a difference. I'm not encouraging violence. We still have to be mindful about what we do with that anger. But to act as though that's not just a healthy, vital part of the human condition and process of feeling.

• 36:27Speaker 04

  It's like weather patterns coming in and moving through. To say, oh, no, here's one that's coming and I'm not allowed to go there. It's just not realistic, quite frankly. So I had to reconnect with this anger. And, you know, to go back to thinking about Peter Levine's work. He has a sort of physicalized this feeling that if someone was coming for you and you weren't allowed to physically fight back, that bracing, that posture, that holding that stuck place might very well be very entrenched in your body. And part of the healing then is re-inhabiting it. Maybe it means going up to a stationary wall and slowly just pushing,

• 37:09Speaker 04

  holding that energy in your body and letting essentially this threat response come to the top and finally go down to the other side. Otherwise, we're left hovering at this midpoint all the time. We can't release it. We can't shake it off. You know, you think about your dog at home when they get spooked. They go, uh, and they shake it out of their body, right? We're sitting there holding it like, well, I'm not allowed to feel that and I can't ruffle anyone's feathers. It's keeping us stuck.

• 37:39Dan Harris?

  Just drill down on this a little bit more. For anybody wondering how to feel their anger and even express it in healthy ways.

• 37:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 37:48Dan Harris?

  What do you recommend?

• 37:50Speaker 04

  Basically, again, if we're taking this focus to the external environment all the time, are you okay? Do I matter? How are you doing? And we're turning that lens back on ourself. This is the essence of healing. We're saying, what do I notice in me right now? What am I experiencing? And one simple but powerful way that I start this process is just by inviting people, maybe put your hand on your own heart, this sort of stance of self-compassion, and just get curious. You know, we say in every trauma training and therapy that I've ever been a part of, we don't say, what do you think about that? We say, what are you noticing? What are you experiencing? And so we're starting to

• 38:35Speaker 04

  build a real relationship to self, an embodied relationship to self, for some of us, maybe the first time. And if you start to notice, well, I feel this fire in my belly and I'm pissed. Basically, it's like, okay, can you linger there? What else do you notice? Is there a color? Is there a memory, another sensation? Is it your whole body or is it really just in that one spot? And you might notice what needs or wants to happen. So it's basically just being in relationship to ourselves. And we can hold the space

• 39:16Speaker 04

  that maybe no one else has held for us to feel those feelings ever before. It reminds me of for so long, I was told, just love yourself, just sort of show up for yourself. And like a true relationship with myself felt like an awful consolation prize, because I'm like, I'm with myself all day long. I want real relationship with other people. But in order for me to have the kind of relationship that I wanted to have with other people, I had to attend to this one first. And it sounds so simple, but I'm telling you, these small practices of attuning to yourself and even attuning to the environment with the senses, putting yourself in present tense and present time, present location, noticing

• 40:01Speaker 04

  what you see or what you hear, and then reflecting how that impacts your somatic experience. These things are powerful.

• 40:10Dan Harris?

  These small practices you're describing, is there a name for them?

• 40:14Speaker 04

  Well, I use my specific training in the book, which is in somatic experiencing, Peter Levine's work, Internal Family Systems, Dick Schwartz's model, what's otherwise known as Parts Work, and also EMDR, which I believe Bruce Perry talks about. These are three very common and probably more accessible trauma therapies. And there are books, workbooks even, for Internal Family Systems or IFS that you can do on your own. But there are so many beyond the scope of my practice, right? So what I basically say is if you feel drawn to something, listen to your gut, notice the nudge of like, oh, that modality seems interesting.

• 40:59Speaker 04

  And then bring yourself along and notice what you're experiencing as you're engaging in whatever it is. Trust that internal feedback more than someone else's idea of like, you should go do X, Y, and Z.

• 41:14Dan Harris?

  As you noted, I've talked to Peter Levine before. I'll put a link to that in the show notes. I've interviewed Dick Schwartz a couple of times. Internal Family Systems work is really interesting, and we'll put some links to those episodes in the show notes. Okay, I want to get to your book. All of this stuff we've been discussing is discussed in the book, but specifically, you have some very practical steps that you recommend in the book. The first area I want to talk about is around like, how do you know if you're a fawn or either a chronic one, or like me, like situationally, you can get into a mode of appeasement or ass kissing, as I have many times in my life, usually with my boss?

• 41:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 41:51Dan Harris?

  How do you know if this is you? Can you say a little bit about that?

• 41:54Speaker 04

  Well, I think there's a reason why I lead with personal experience and why I invited seven clients from very different backgrounds and experiences to participate in this book. They have truly shared their whole story. These aren't just little vignettes. And I do that because if you look at fawning, that at least one half of us is essentially offline. It can be really hard to identify yourself as a fawn or just talking about the theory of it. But when you hear someone's story, you go, oh, I know what they're talking about. So it's why I'm really privileging lived experience. But essentially, a lot of the signs and symptoms sort of boil down to like, if you know how to befriend the bully,

• 42:39Speaker 04

  that might be your boss or whatever. Or if you find that you're always getting smaller in relationship, you shrink in the face of someone else's need. It's almost like relationships are a math problem and everyone else gets to take up 80% and you kind of figure out how to live in the 20 that's left. If you're chronically conflict avoidant, like the idea of conflict in my body for so long, it ignited just this terror, that's the word, it was true terror, like, no, no, no, no, no, I can't have a difference of opinion even. So these are some of the signs that people might be able to see themselves in.

• 43:16Dan Harris?

  I'll list a few of the others that you include in the book. Self-minimization, although you just did kind of cover that. Hypervigilance and anxiety, shame spirals, shape shifting, like sort of being the right person in various contexts. Resentment and caretaking, a deep need to be chosen and/or liked. And even sexual fawning, like using sex as a form of currency to appease. These are just some of the key signs and manifestations. Any of the things that I just listed that you want to say more about?

• 43:45Speaker 04

  Well, I think most people's ears perk up around sexual fawning, so maybe I'll just speak to that for a moment.

• 43:51Dan Harris?

  Sure.

• 43:51Speaker 04

  And one way to do it is, again, my personal experience, that if I was sexualized when I was so young, which was the case, or, you know, if you're so disempowered and yet some form of power that you are endowed with is your ability to be attractive or to be sexy, of course, fawning is going to borrow from that and use your sex appeal in order to appease or befriend the bully even. And so this was one piece of my experience that I just felt for so long. And talk about this feeling of self-betrayal and of trauma reenactment. I was like, how am I ending up in this situation again? Like, do I have a sandwich board that says, inappropriate married men, users and abusers, please apply here? That's sort of what it felt like.

• 44:36Speaker 04

  And now I know that. Just like our empathy or our generosity, sexuality can become sort of fused with this fawning where I'm not being sexual or empathic or generous out of conscious choice. I'm doing it because I believe if I don't, I will not be safe.

• 44:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:00Dan Harris?

  Man, we are complicated animals.

• 45:05Speaker 04

  That's real.

• 45:07Speaker 04

  That's real.

• 45:09Dan Harris?

  Okay, so those are the signs and manifestations. But there's a huge emphasis in the book is how to, and this is the phrase you use, how to unfawn. What are the steps there?

• 45:19Speaker 04

  Well, primarily, we've talked about this a little bit. It's turning that external focus, that constant looking to the horizon to find our safety outside of our own bodies. It's starting to build a sense of internal safety from the ground up for the first time ever. So we don't start unfawning in relationships. I don't say, well, go out and set some healthy boundaries. Because if you do, and it doesn't go well, the body's gonna go, see, I told you. That doesn't work. That feels horrible. So really, half of it is just being in relationship to self, which is why these models like SE and IFS are so important. Because essentially, these are models for, how do I connect with my whole being?

• 46:03Speaker 04

  So that is a huge piece of it. And then, once you have a different sense of safety in the world, then we can start to practice. Well, is this a safe enough environment or relationship where I can bring more of my full self? We start to practice, and it might sound silly, but in little ways of like, when the waiter brings me the wrong thing, can I just say, hey, you brought me the wrong thing? Or if a friend says, where do you want to go for dinner? You don't just constantly defer. In other words, you start making these little baby steps into being more of a whole person with opinions, taking up space, right? Not just shrinking in the face of, oh, it's no big deal. I got it. Whatever you want.

• 46:45Speaker 04

  And now the body has experiential feedback, not theoretical. It goes, oh, that went better than I thought it would. Maybe I could take a risk in another place. Now, all that to say, and I want to make sure that this is clear. If you have a body, you are always going to have access to fight, fight, freeze responses. The goal is never to never fawn again. Okay, so I've now written the book and I talk about this all day, every day, and I probably fawned yesterday. Okay, the goal is that we are not meant to live in survival mode

• 47:26Speaker 04

  in a threat response 24/7 that is acting as us, whether there's a sense of feeling unsafe or not. This is where we start to discern in this work. Is this really dangerous? This relationship, this situation? Or is this just uncomfortable? Right? Is this triggering in a way because I'm leaning into having a voice? And that sets off my alarm bells like, don't do that. It's gonna make it worse. But this is where we start to learn the difference so that our bodies aren't in a constant sense of threat all the time.

• 48:05Dan Harris?

  I'm gonna ask some questions that cover some of the things you just mentioned or just like kind of dig deeper a little bit. One of the things you've mentioned throughout this, and this is seems to be like step number one in unfawning, is this paradigm shift, this kind of moving away from binary thinking. Again, you did mention this earlier, but can you say specifically why it's so important in terms of recovering from fawning, either as a chronic or episodic faunner?

• 48:30Speaker 04

  Because basically I still have a body that's hardwired for relationships and for safety. The body just prioritizes that 100% of the time. And what's real is we live in an unsafe world. We don't live in this utopia where everyone has equal access and we can have all these friendly ruptures and repairs in relationship all day long. That's just not true. That discounts the reality of the thing. So that's why the removing that binary is so important because now I go, oh, it just allows it to be the moving, living organism that it actually is. And we're not stigmatizing people for being human beings.

• 49:16Dan Harris?

  I think about that in terms of, and I've talked openly on the show about my panic disorder, specifically in like elevators and airplanes. And I think I've been hoping that there is an end of the rainbow. And I think actually, some people do, you know, like get over it, but I'm not sure that's gonna happen for me. And it's, I think it's just gonna be good days, bad days. Sometimes I need to take a medication. Sometimes I can get away with not doing it.

• 49:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think that's a really healthy approach. And then anytime that you don't have that panic, it kind of feels like gravy. It's like, oh, great. Like, I'm so glad that that worked out. But then you're not shamed for the times that you need more resource or support, or it didn't go as well.

• 49:56Dan Harris?

  Yes. In this conversation and in the book, as it pertains to unfawning, you approach it on the two levels. Like, it starts with inner work. It's not in relationship, as you said, and then it moves to outer work. In terms of inner work, you've referenced things like SE, somatic experiencing, and IFS, internal family systems. These are big subjects. We're not going to be able to cover all of it right here. But what can you say that would be like a simple, practical takeaway for any of us, whether we have complex trauma or not, that would help us either regulate our nervous system, or have a different relationship to these deeply wired responses that may be dominating our lives?

• 50:36Speaker 04

  Yes, I think accessible approaches to everyone for regulating your nervous system is knowing that the senses are the language of the nervous system. That's why just looking around wherever you are right now and noticing what you see really deliberately coming out of this autopilot that we're in all the time, right? We're scrolling, we're multitasking, we're not in our body. But when I'm literally focused on what do I notice right now in my environment, I become more embodied. Even before I mentioned noticing what I hear, because I've done this enough, my body and my hearing was like, oh, I can hear that the air conditioner is on. And as I even hear ambient noise, my body goes,

• 51:22Speaker 04

  I'm coming back more online. You think about the threat responses again from the animal defenses. This is based on Peter's work. He's like, you know, animals should be deeply traumatized. I mean, they are prey, they are running for their lives and yet they're not. There's this flexibility. They move in and out of these states. Like, why don't we do that? Well, in part because we're, we're so evolved that we're on this override all the time. So finding a way to drop in. Sometimes I ask people to be curious. Is there any time in your life where you really felt like you were safe and connected? The most you maybe you've ever felt before?

• 52:04Speaker 04

  And people feel these memories just emerge, maybe sometimes ones that they had forgotten. Other times it's what are you drawn to? What do you, music do you like to listen to? Do you sing in the shower? These tend to be very simple things because regulating your nervous system isn't this magic wand where it's like, aha. It's these subtle movements towards connection and self from a place of flexibility. And walking is my favorite, walking in nature, just walking in my neighborhood, which is very much in the city. I still orient to any natural objects that I see and I notice the color on the tree. I guarantee you every time I come back, my husband is very grateful that I went and I took a walk.

• 52:49Speaker 04

  Cause I'm a different person when I come back, right? I'm more regulated.

• 52:54Dan Harris?

  So I hear two things there and they're related, but one is, you know, just tuning in mindfully to what's happening in your environment. I'm a fan of indie rock or punk rock and there's a bunch of Australian bands right now I love. And there's one band, I think this is the right band, the Teenage Jones, I think they're called. Anyway, they have a song called Five Things I Can Taste, Touch, Hear and Smell. It's quite a catchy song and that's what you're talking about.

• 53:17Speaker 04

  That's what I'm talking about.

• 53:18Dan Harris?

  Getting embodied, being mindful, opening up to the senses. And then there's another thing I heard you say, or I think I heard you say about kind of imagining places where your nervous system feels safe. And I went. When I was on, I cajoled my therapist, or one of my therapists, shout out to Paul Green, to coming on a couple of flights with me. I would take these flights as practice flights unmedicated. He was basically sending me, to use cliched language, to my happy place. Yes, which is the type of thing that, you know, normally I would like to mock, but I did find it very helpful to imagine. There's this picture that somebody took of me and

• 53:59Dan Harris?

  my wife and my son on the night before I retired from ABC News after 21 years. And I'm sitting in a chair and they're both hugging me. And that is a very, that my nervous system was really, you can see it on my face. And so I just would look at that picture when I was stuck on a plane. I'll probably do it again when I have to fly in a couple of days. There's something really powerful about that.

• 54:20Speaker 04

  It is so powerful. I'm so glad you're bringing it up. You know, this is what Olympic athletes use in their training even before they do the race. They envision the race. And when you light up their brains to see what's going on, all the same places in their imagination are being lit up as when they're actually doing the thing. So we can, in other words, induce these same feelings and experiences just by going there in our imagination. And listen, I'm similar to you. I'm the first person to roll my eyes at something that's like really a safe place or inner child work. But I'm going to tell you right now, this stuff has absolutely saved my life. Like, give yourself the chance to experience it.

• 55:04Speaker 04

  And there's probably a million safe or calm or happy place meditations online. Look it up. Give it a try. If you hate the tone of voice and all of the prompts, we'll find another one. Or make it up yourself. There really are so many tools that we can access just right now for free. There's a lot to be said for social media that isn't so great, but I will say a lot of the free mental health content there is pretty incredible. So avail yourself of some of those tools.

• 55:37Dan Harris?

  One of my favorite expressions that I did not coin is, if you can't be cheesy, you can't be free. I love that.

• 55:42Speaker 04

  Oh, my God, that's so good. I'm going to take it, too.

• 55:45Dan Harris?

  You should take it because it's not mine. It's not even mine to give.

• 55:51Dan Harris?

  Coming up, Dr. Clayton talks about how to set boundaries, some more tips for unfawning. We talk specifically about fawning at work. And then we talk about how to weave everything we're talking about here into your daily life.

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• 57:09Dan Harris?

  We've been talking about inner work, and you also talk about outer work. You did cover earlier, like, getting more comfortable with your anger or fight response, and then testing it in ways, you know, like with a waiter, in polite and small ways. But then you also talk in the book about learning how to set boundaries once you've done your inner work and practiced a little bit with your own anger. How does one do that?

• 57:33Speaker 04

  Yeah. One way that I liked in the beginning was thinking about a modified boundary, again, moving out of this binary, like, it's either a yes or a no, or I can have you in my life, or I have to cut you out of my life. It's sort of like, what am I available for? Is there any part of this thing that I'm available for? So, put it in a really simple example. It might be like, can you watch my child on Friday night? And maybe I go, oh, my gosh, I know I'm gonna be so exhausted. You know, I really don't want to do it, but I do really want to be helpful and kind of foster for some community. Really think about like what parts are you available for and what parts are you're not and see if you can communicate that. I would love to help you out on Friday.

• 58:17Speaker 04

  Could you be back by nine because dot, dot, dot? So it starts to bring in a little more nuance to this idea of boundaries that made it more accessible. And I would say, you know, my clients often find the same.

• 58:34Dan Harris?

  Another thing you recommend is vulnerability with safe people. Can you say a little bit more about that?

• 58:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, hopefully, most of us have at least one safer person. And I think practicing with them, in fact, you might even use this language like, hey, I'm aware that I've been conflict avoidant my whole life and yet you're someone that I really value our relationship, our friendship, whatever it is, and I would like to bring more of me to the table. And maybe, I don't know, if you would also like to do the same, if you feel like there are parts of you that you're holding back. But my greatest hope is that we could be even closer. That's the intention. And that might mean that sometimes I disagree in ways that maybe you've never known me to disagree before, or I have a different opinion. And I'm wondering,

• 59:25Speaker 04

  do you think our relationship could hold that? So you're kind of building the scaffolding for an ongoing deeper relationship and inviting other people to do the same by saying, I also am here to hold your difference of opinion or disappointment or whatever it is.

• 59:43Dan Harris?

  It's amazing, as I'm listening to you speak, I'm thinking about how this fond response and many of other, our other hardwired or, you know, just deeply wired responses can be a briar patch because we need other people, we need authentic relationships in order to be healthy, to be a little cheesy myself here. But if you've got this fond response, you're blocked from being authentic. So you're just, you can get stuck.

• 1:00:10Speaker 04

  I love the briar patch idea. It's literally what I say to people is that this work is maybe gonna be some of the hardest that you've ever done for that reason. Because I'm inviting you to step into the places that ignited the most terror. It's also why you don't just jump headfirst. You go like, oh, I'm gonna feel that little briar patch under my baby toe and go, how did that feel? Okay, I'm gonna go back to the safety of the other side for a moment. That's literally what we're doing. I'm like, okay, we're gonna go walk through fire. Talk about re-inhabiting, a healthy fight response. Of course, this does not sound appealing. And yet, I would not be talking about this.

• 1:00:50Speaker 04

  I would not be recommending it if it wasn't the thing that restored me to a sense of a whole person. If I didn't see it happen so many times in my practice. And if everyone didn't say at the end of the day, it's so worth it.

• 1:01:03Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:04Speaker 04

  It's so worth it because you also don't stay in that terror. Part of stepping into that discomfort and knowing, oh, maybe it isn't danger. Maybe it is just discomfort, is that it can start to dissipate. You're not living in that heightened, hypervigilant sense of it's happening again. It's gonna happen again all the time. So the rewards, in other words, are profoundly worth whatever I'm inviting you into in terms of this process that can be painful. You mentioned it early, it's like grieve, maybe a little relief, grieve again. You know, you think about stepping into these relationships and maybe seeing them for what they are in reality, not what you've dressed it up to be or what you were waiting for it to be.

• 1:01:49Speaker 04

  There's a lot of grieving that's involved in this process too. You go, not only was this not the relationship I thought it was, but it's never going to be. So there can be a lot of heartbreak. But I think what most people find, because some relationships might have to end. Some relationships might change. Some relationships might get abundantly better. But at the heart of it is, I would rather have me in my own life. Then sacrifice that for a relationship with ultimately anybody else. Cause it's not a real relationship if I'm not even there to have it.

• 1:02:24Dan Harris?

  Right. So we've been talking about how to unfawn. I think a lot of the emphasis has been on people who are have the chronic fawn response. But what about for the rest of us? Again, I don't think I have complex trauma in my life, but I can think of times when I've appeased or self minimized in a power relationship especially.

• 1:02:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:02:45Dan Harris?

  Are there ways to unfawn for me and for the people who I'm describing?

• 1:02:49Speaker 04

  It's a great question, and there might be another answer behind this, but my first instinct is to say no. I think primarily what I would encourage you to do is know that your body did the one thing that it thought would be most helpful in the moment, and it chose it in a nanosecond without your conscious consent. Because part of what I think even with an acute sort of fawn response is we go, why did I do that? I think what lingers, in other words, is the judgment and the shame. And so just being able to understand what happened and why it happened. I think that's the message for people that have an acute fawn response is you go, oh, that's why I did what I did. Okay. Well, that makes sense.

• 1:03:28Dan Harris?

  Okay. But I can think of times where I had acute fawn responses with a boss, for example. But if people listening to this have a boss where they're finding themselves having acute fawn responses, but it's kind of adding up to a chronic situation, whether or not there's complex trauma driving it. It's just like a situational issue, but it's ongoing. How can we deal with the mythical bad boss?

• 1:03:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's a fair question. So to me, these are the same, by the way. Complex trauma is just relational trauma, relational threat. I think a lot of people don't like the word trauma because it still holds this old idea of what we think trauma is. It's a natural disaster. It's a car crash. But what we actually know is that feeling unsafe in relationship. And if you need a boss to give you a paycheck, I mean, financial security is pretty major on the list of a hierarchy of needs. And you really feel like I have to show up in this particular way. I gotta keep this guy on my side and it's happening day in, day out. You have to leave yourself at the door in order to secure financial security.

• 1:04:33Speaker 04

  That's an example of complex trauma, in my view. And we don't have to use that terminology if it doesn't resonate with folks. But I think it's the same idea that you might start with asking yourself genuinely, what do I think would happen if I didn't fawn? What are the consequences, in other words? And sometimes we have real time examples and evidence. Well, I know when I didn't, right? This is what happened. And sometimes just that naming and understanding can allow us to be with ourselves, right? Not wholly self abandoned, but go, okay, I'm doing this for a reason.

• 1:05:17Speaker 04

  And actually, it is keeping me safe. When I say I probably fawned yesterday, I'm saying it in the sense of, I'm not mad about that. My body went into a fawn response and got me through and got me to the other side. And listen, that's the reality, like I said, of sometimes being in a world that's not designed for my happiness and wellbeing, like, Ingrid, what can we do today to make you a little more comfortable and in your own skin? So I think it's similar. I think this work is available to you if you have a body. It's available to you because we all have a nervous system and we all live in environments that at times can feel threatening for lots of different reasons.

• 1:06:02Dan Harris?

  So what you said there was complex and had some nuance. So I just want to see if I can say it back to you and make sure I understand it correctly. First, one thing you said that I think is very helpful and kind of undid a, perhaps, a misunderstanding between the two of us throughout the course of this conversation, was that when you're referring to complex trauma, a phrase in which I do not see myself, you're saying, it's not just you were sexually abused or groomed as a child. Complex trauma could simply be you're in a long-term unhealthy relationship with a malignant boss.

• 1:06:34Speaker 04

  100%, yes. Ongoing experiences of threat to varying degrees. And

• 1:06:43Speaker 04

  Complex trauma is not even defined by the event itself. I think that's where most of us get hung up. It's defined by the overwhelm in your nervous system. It's defined by a lack of access to resources and helpful things that could help you move through. So it's defined by the symptom, in other words. That's why I say, well, if you're telling me that you were in this prolonged experience with the boss where you're fawning, I go, well, there's the symptom. There's your answer.

• 1:07:11Dan Harris?

  Yeah, so that's a really helpful clarification. And then to what you were saying further to that is that, well, all the things we were, I was talking about earlier, the inner work and the outer work and the moving beyond the binary healed or unhealed. Like, you can use all that shit, whether or not you see yourself in the term complex trauma or not. If you're in a situation where you find yourself fawning over and over again, all the things we already discussed, you help yourself.

• 1:07:36Speaker 04

  And I would just add to that. If you have to go back in the lion's den, I hope that you know that your body is going to lean into whatever response is going to keep you as safe as possible in the moment. In other words, you can do all of this work for the rest of your life, like I intend to do, and I'm still gonna fawn, I'm still gonna lean into safety in whatever way I can access it.

• 1:08:00Dan Harris?

  Let me ask the question from a different point of view. While I'm sure that I have fawned on many occasions, I think more often than not, the way I see myself at least, is that I am in a position where sometimes people will fawn with me. Or, and there are three people very close to me who I've written down on my notes here. I need to send this information to them because I see some, like, it's unlocking a lot of understanding, I think, of some people very close to me and how they behave. So I'm a boss, I'm a semi-public figure, I guess, I'm a dad. So I'm in situations where I have disproportionate amounts of power.

• 1:08:42Dan Harris?

  How can I take everything we've just discussed and weave it into how I move through the world?

• 1:08:49Speaker 04

  I am in love with this question. I think it's such a powerful one. Yes, when we notice it, when we're aware of our privilege and power, how can we even the playing field? It's sort of why I talked about being a therapist and having to go first. I have to even the playing field and self-disclose or let people know very clearly, hey, it's okay if you disagree. I have to make it safe, in other words, for them to lean in. And so that's a powerful thing that I think all of us have access to is being curious with the people in our lives, like, hey, if you notice it in the moment and you think someone's, you know, just kind of going along to get along and you kind of sense they're not really telling me what they actually feel,

• 1:09:35Speaker 04

  slow down and be curious and say, hey, I have a sense that you're holding something back. And I want you to know, I genuinely want to know what you're feeling and experiencing right now. It's really important to me. I really value what you have to say. And maybe if you think that that's going to ruffle my feathers, I want you to know that that's just another opportunity for intimacy or real connection, and I value that too, right? So I think we have to go first and let people know that it's safe. I also think it's helpful, like you said, to take those names and give them this information or give them the book so that they can start to absorb this lens and language into their own life. But what a gift, I think, to give to people to say, hey,

• 1:10:21Speaker 04

  this is a safe place. Maybe you don't know that and that's okay. You come by that honestly. But I want you to know that that's always my intention.

• 1:10:31Dan Harris?

  The person who's producing this episode, Marissa, who I wouldn't describe as having a fun response, although I don't know, Marissa, I'm not trying to psychoanalyze you, but she says something that is relevant to this conversation about me, which is that she says that I have a, she doesn't use this term, but I think she said, I have a scary face. I would call it a resting bitch face. And I think it's true, and my wife has observed this too. So I try to be cognizant of that. And what I've tried to do, I think maybe semi-successfully, is

• 1:11:03Dan Harris?

  To reward people on my team for speaking up. So to publicly demonstrate that not only is it safe to question me, but also you will be rewarded for doing it. This is an effort. I'm sure I have a million blind spots, but that's just one way I've tried to operationalize your advice.

• 1:11:20Speaker 04

  I love it. And if you're not sure how it's working, I would ask your team.

• 1:11:25Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:25Speaker 04

  They're holding all the wisdom, right?

• 1:11:27Dan Harris?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:27Speaker 04

  Hey, how are we doing in terms of like reciprocal, respectful relationships here? Where are the gaps? What is missing? And I'll also give you props that when we logged on today, you didn't say you have a resting bitch face, but you did say, hey, I look down a lot. And it's not because I'm not listening or paying attention. And it did create more of a sense of safety even in this interview. So you're very trauma informed and leaning in in a way that is helpful.

• 1:11:54Dan Harris?

  Just to be clear to the listener, I said to Dr. Clayton that I look down at my notes, not that I look down at people a lot. I look down at my notes. So I break eye contact a lot while I'm interviewing, not because I'm checking my email. But this is a little speech I give before every interview, which you, the listener, never hear, which is I tell people, hey, just so you know, I look down, I'm checking my notes, I'm taking notes. Please don't get discouraged if you see that. So I guess that's trauma informed. Okay, last question for me before I ask my two habitual final questions. But you said something earlier that I vowed to follow up on quickly, but I didn't follow up on quickly. I'm gonna follow it up on it now. You said something like being seen as a self. And I've thought about that a lot personally with my own experience.

• 1:12:38Dan Harris?

  I've been very public about having gone through some business turbulence in my life. And without in any way casting aspersions here, I would call it traumatic. Not that there was a bad guy and I was the good guy, just that it was a traumatic and prolonged confrontation that produced a lot of anxiety and fear for me. And I've thought a lot about the fact that my wife has recommended I get some sort of trauma therapy. And at first, as is my want, I was completely dismissive of that, which is because I'm a shithead sometimes. But there's something I realized over time that I needed, which is just to have somebody say, dude, that sucked. And sometimes my friends will do it. And it's just so, it's such a relief to have that happen.

• 1:13:22Dan Harris?

  And so what brings me to my question, which is a phrase that you use, a sentence you use in the book. Wounding happens in relationship.

• 1:13:31Dan Harris?

  And healing happens in relationship. Can you just say a little bit more about that?

• 1:13:36Speaker 04

  Yes, yes. The example that came into my mind as I was listening to you, you know, I identify as a chronic fonder. And when I went on social media as a therapist, I did not just wear my therapist hat. Hi, I'm Dr. Ingrid Clayton, and I have some answers for you. I really knew that I had to lead with being a childhood trauma survivor. And also, you know, before I was a therapist, I was a singer songwriter. I have a performance background. I like to think I have a good sense of humor and can be irreverent and all these things. And I really felt called to have all of these parts of me in one place at the same time. But being seen in that way, I'm telling you 100%.

• 1:14:18Speaker 04

  I was like, I'm gonna tank my career, whatever credibility I have at this point. If I go on Instagram and start singing about complex trauma, like that's it. It's over for me. But here's what actually happened. And here's the other thing I've said to myself. I was like, well, if that's true, because I felt so called to do this, if that's true, if I lose my career, I guess I'm not meant to be a clinical psychologist. We'll see where I'm meant to go next. But what actually happened is when I allowed my whole self to be seen, and this could make me weep, my whole self was seen. And it changed my life. It let me know experientially, I don't just have to be these parts of me

• 1:15:02Speaker 04

  that can be helpful to you, that can be packaged in a way that you would prefer. I really can be a whole person in the world. And it changed my life. And that was relational, right? Because people are commenting and they're reaching out and you know, there's the algorithm, the craziness there too. But the reality is, is I did create this sense of community around it. And the second thing that comes to mind is the power of seeing ourselves. Right? So before I wrote this book on fawning, I wrote a memoir on complex trauma, and it's called Believing Me. Because after a lifetime of waiting to be validated, oh, yes, that did happen.

• 1:15:45Speaker 04

  It never came. And here's the truth for a lot of people, right? So when you say even your friends seeing this traumatic experience and going, yeah, that was horrible. That was real. A lot of us are never going to have that experience. The people that harmed us or the people that were around that are never going to cop to it. But we can see it and own it and name it ourselves. And when we do, that is the access point into not being so held hostage by it. So I think it's like multi-directional, right? Being seen by others, but also truly, truly being seen by ourselves is powerful.

• 1:16:26Dan Harris?

  Yeah, it's crazy how much we can do for ourselves that we're not taught about growing up. The two final questions I ask people, one is, is there something you were hoping to get to that we didn't?

• 1:16:37Speaker 04

  No, I think we covered a lot of ground.

• 1:16:40Dan Harris?

  Great. So I'll get to my final question, which is, can you just remind everybody of the name of your new book? You just told us about the preceding book and also anything else that we should know about that you're making or doing.

• 1:16:51Speaker 04

  Thank you for that. The new book is called Fawning: Why the Need to Please Makes Us Lose Ourselves and How to Find Our Way Back. It is available now in bookstores and on Audible and all the things. And I am accessible through my website, ingridclayton.com, through Instagram and Substack and all the places. If you want to be in community there, and I just tend to let people know I'm not taking new clients. It takes a lot of courage to reach out and ask for help. And unfortunately, I'm not seeing folks and I can't give referrals. But I hope you will find the right support that you deserve.

• 1:17:27Dan Harris?

  Dr. Clayton, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

• 1:17:29Speaker 04

  Thank you so much.

• 1:17:35Dan Harris?

  Thanks again to Dr. Ingrid Clayton. Great to talk to her. Before I go, I want to insert some notes here, sent to me by senior producer Marissa Schneiderman, who produced this episode. First, she wanted me to say that she is so good at fawning that I didn't even notice. And second, she wants me to point out that while I may have a stony face at times, she herself is actually not afraid of my face, my punim, as they say in Yiddish. Also, a couple of other things to say here. You may have heard us mention Peter Levine, Dick Schwartz, and Dr. Bruce Perry during the course of that conversation. I'll put some links in the show notes to my previous interviews with Peter, Dick, and Bruce, so you can hear them. Don't forget, this episode comes with a custom meditation. This one's from Jeff Warren, our Teacher of the Month, and it's all about how to unfawn,

• 1:18:20Dan Harris?

  how to set boundaries. Also, Jeff and I will be doing a live meditation and Q and A session on December 2nd, 4:00 PM Eastern, our Monday, Wednesday meditation drops, and our live meditation's on Tuesday. These are all for subscribers at DanHarris.com, so sign up. And finally, one last reminder. Don't forget what I said at the top of the show about this Pods Fight Poverty thing that we're doing, where we're teaming up with other great podcasters to help lift 700 families out of poverty in Rwanda. Go to givedirectly.org/dan if you want to get involved. givedirectly.org/dan. Finally, thank you to everybody who works so hard to make this show. Our producers are Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vassili.

• 1:19:04Dan Harris?

  Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote our theme.

• 1:19:28Speaker 03

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