Zen Ways To Build Routines, Concentrate Your Mind, and Simplify Your Life

From The Way Out Is In, the official podcast of Thich Nhat Hanh's Plum Village tradition, co-hosted by frequent 10% guest Brother Chan Phap Huu and leadership coach Jo Confino. In this installment, Brother Phap Huu https://plumvillage.org/people/dharma-teachers/br-phap-huu/ and Jo https://www.instagram.com/joconfino/?hl=en discuss the true meaning of Zen, finding beauty and meaning in simplicity, and how to practice so in everyday life. Also, what does it mean to be part of a Zen tradition? And how do we practice Zen? How do we see the world 'through the eyes of Zen'? The conversation also touches upon the cultivation of mindfulness, concentration, and insight; the importance of humility; finding beauty in the mundane; the sacredness of objects and spaces; the role of rituals and routines; the balance between sophistication and simplicity in one's spiritual practice; and much more. The episode concludes with a short meditation, guided by Brother Phap Huu, on being present and grateful for the wonders of life. Get ready for another Meditation Party at Omega Institute! This in-person workshop brings together Dan with his friends and meditation teachers, Sebene Selassie, Jeff Warren, and for the first time, Ofosu Jones-Quartey. The event runs October 24th-26th. Sign up and learn more here http://eomega.org/workshops/meditation-party-2025! Join Dan's online community here http://www.danharris.com/ Follow Dan on social: Instagram https://bit.ly/3tGigG5, TikTok https://bit.ly/3FOA84J Subscribe to our YouTube Channel https://bit.ly/3FybRzD To advertise on the show, contact [email protected] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/10HappierwithDanHarris SPONSOR: Odoo: Discover how you can take your business to the next level by visiting odoo.com http://odoo.com/. Modern management made simple.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Dan Harris?

  This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris.

• 0:19Dan Harris?

  Happy Sunday, everybody. As you may know, the word Zen gets thrown around a lot. We use it for everything from spa treatments to interior design, but Zen has a much deeper meaning, one that is both fascinating and very practical, if you're interested in doing life better, that is. So today, you're going to hear a discussion about the meaning of the word Zen. What we're doing here is called a feed drop, where we play you an episode of another podcast that we like, one that you may want to check out. It's kind of like a teaser. The podcast in question is called "The Way Out Is In," and it's co-hosted by Brother Phap Hu, who's a Buddhist monk, who's been a guest on this show many, many times. Brother Phap Hu was the personal attendant for Thich Nhat Hanh, the great Zen master,

• 1:02Dan Harris?

  for 17 years. He's now the abbot of Plum Village's Upper Hamlet. His co-host on his show, which again is called "The Way Out Is In," is Joe Confino, who's a writer. Together, Joe and Brother Phap Hu also wrote a book called Being with Busyness: Zen Ways to Transform, Overwhelm, and Burnout. So the show is called "The Way Out Is In," and this episode is about the word Zen. And I should say that the episode we're about to play you concludes with a short meditation guided by Brother Phap Hu, so that's worth checking out. Before I hit play on that, though, I just want to remind you to come check out what we're doing over at danharris.com. Paid subscribers now get guided meditations that come with all

• 1:42Dan Harris?

  of our Monday, Wednesday episodes, plus weekly live meditation and Q&A sessions on video. We do these every Tuesday at 4:00 Eastern. I'm doing the next one this Tuesday solo, but sometimes I do it with our Teacher of the Month. In September, our Teacher of the Month has been Vinnie Ferraro. In October, it will be Sebene Selassie. Speaking of Seb, if you want to meditate with me and Seb in person, we will be back at the Omega Institute for another installment of Meditation Party, our annual, sometimes biannual, weekend-long retreat. It's October 24th through 26th this year. Jeff Warren will be there. Ofosu Jones Corté will be there. There is a link in the show notes if you want to sign up. Okay, enough out of me. Coming up, an episode on the concept of Zen from the podcast "The

• 2:26Dan Harris?

  Way Out Is In." Keep it here. If you care about supporting independent media, and if you care about being a node of sanity in an insane world, there are a few quick, easy, and free ways that you can support me and my team, which I would be really grateful for. One way to do it is to sign up for my newsletter, which comes out on Monday mornings. It's a little dose of sanity in your inbox at the beginning of a busy week. The second way to do it is to follow and subscribe to the show, wherever you're listening or watching right now. That really helps. Three, share your favorite episode with a friend. This is a great and low-stakes way to connect with somebody in your orbit. And not for nothing, it also helps us grow. And all of these things take about 30 seconds, and they really do help.

• 3:11Dan Harris?

  You will be supporting me and my team and our mission, and I, as I said, would be immensely grateful. You can find everything we do at danharris.com. It's all right there. Thank you. I mean that seriously. We'll be right back with more show. If you care about supporting independent media, and if you care about being a node of sanity in an insane world, there are a few quick, easy, and free ways that you can support me and my team, which I would be really grateful for. One way to do it is to sign up for my newsletter, which comes out on Monday mornings. It's a little dose of sanity in your inbox at the beginning of a busy week. The second way to do it is to follow and subscribe to the show, wherever you're listening or watching right now. That really helps. Three, share your favorite episode with a friend.

• 3:57Dan Harris?

  This is a great and low-stakes way to connect with somebody in your orbit. And not for nothing, it also helps us grow. And all of these things take about 30 seconds, and they really do help. You will be supporting me and my team and our mission, and I, as I said, would be immensely grateful. You can find everything we do at danharris.com. It's all right there. Thank you. I mean that seriously. We'll be right back with more show.

• 4:21Speaker 01

  Dear listeners, welcome to this latest episode in the podcast series, "The Way Out Is In."

• 4:43Speaker 01

  I am Joe Confino, working at the intersection of personal transformation and systems evolution.

• 4:49Speaker 02

  And I am Brother Fappu, a Zen Buddhist monk, student of Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh in the Plum Village tradition.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  And today, Brother, we are going to talk about the true meaning of Zen, finding beauty and meaning in simplicity. And that means keeping this intro very short.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  Hello, dear listeners. I am Joe Confino.

• 5:26Speaker 02

  And I am Brother Fappu.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  So, Brother, I... This episode is quite personal for me because I was sitting this morning and thinking about the art of simplicity. And what... I don't know if I'm getting old, I don't know if I'm getting boring, or I don't know if I'm on the path to enlightenment. It could be one of those three, and the reason is because I'm increasingly finding joy and happiness in the simple things in life. And to give you an example,

• 6:01Speaker 01

  yesterday I was just standing outside the house and I heard the first cranes arriving back from the winter. And we have huge sort of V-shaped formations of cranes that fly over when they leave for the winter and when they come back for the spring. And I was just overwhelmed with joy. I literally, I called my wife Paz and we ran up to the top of the hill and just listened and watched them return. And it was like... There was a moment of real pure joy, actually. It was like, "Ah, this is the first sign of spring, that they're returning home and that means, you know, we've survived another winter and the warm weather is going to be coming."

• 6:46Speaker 01

  And then this morning, I was looking out into the garden and saw a robin flitting around the branches of the bushes outside our house. And just really enjoying its movements, just really enjoying just the just the simple experience of being witness to life happening. And it made me think about Zen, because a lot of people throw the word Zen around. So I've seen Zen on crisp packets. I've seen hair salons called Zen hair salons. I've seen courses called Zen. I look at people calling themselves Zen.

• 7:28Speaker 01

  But it's a word that we use, but actually often we're not really sure what it means. And Thich Nhat Hanh was a Zen master. And Plum Village is a Zen Buddhist tradition. So I thought, thinking about beginner's mind, it would be useful just to come back to the true meaning of Zen and how, what that means in terms of our everyday lives. How do we practice Zen? How do we see the world through the eyes of Zen? So that is where I come to in this conversation. And so maybe we could start off by saying,

• 8:06Speaker 01

  for you, what does Zen mean? What does it mean to be part of a Zen tradition?

• 8:13Speaker 02

  Let's break it down.

• 8:16Speaker 02

  Zen is the English word from a translation from Chinese as well as Sanskrit. And Zen, by definition, it means meditation. And what does meditation mean? Meditation has to have a practice in it. It has to have an essence to it. And in meditation, in the school of meditation, we speak of two elements. The first element is a training of learning to stop, samatha. And stopping here, it's a very practical, as in like literally sitting still.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  That's why. In the schools of Buddhism, one of the branch that was developed called the Dhyana School, which is the school of meditation, which is the school of Zen. So Plum Village is from this long lineage of the school of Zen tradition. We are of a generation of the Dhyana School. And concretely, the Zen masters had to put into practices as a formal activity for all of us to train our ability to have the capacity to pause and be still, to stop.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  And when Tai talks about stopping, he goes very deep in it. He speaks on it at the level of stop running away from, such as being carried away by our thinking of the past. We're running towards the past. Or we are over worrying about the future. Or we are only putting our hope and life into the future. So we are always chasing towards the future. So our teacher would teach us all to have an anchor so that we can concentrate our our mind and our

• 10:28Speaker 02

  attention so that we can ground ourselves into the present moment. So stopping is a wing of meditation, wing as in like the wing of a bird. So we have to develop the ability to be in stillness, to not be carried away. And when we go deeper into the practice of stopping, we can be actively moving, actively talking, actively engaging. But we are still very concentrated and we are stopping in our peace. Nobody can take that peace away. We are grounded in our love. We are grounded in our compassion.

• 11:10Speaker 02

  Nobody can remove us away from that. So the first wing of meditation is to stop. The second wing of meditation is looking deeply. Looking deeply is an art. It is to understand life at a very...

• 11:30Speaker 02

  Simple way of looking as well as in the simplicity you see the the depths of life. So when we speak about love, for example, today's the fifteenth, yesterday was Valentine's Day, the fourteenth of February. And what is love? That is a question I'm sure many people ask. And for us, um, one of the

• 11:58Speaker 02

  foundation of love is to understand. And how do we understand? We have to have the ability to look deeply into the um, the person that we are loving. Do we understand him or her or they enough? So that we can offer them

• 12:17Speaker 02

  our actions from body, speech and mind with understanding. Because if we love someone, but we only love them by what we want, then that love doesn't come with understanding. So therefore that love doesn't have the essence of meditation. So for me, when we, when we speak on um, Zen, it is an art form, first of all. And in the art form of Zen, it is, it has to be very concrete to a practice. So for us, um, for me, this conversation is very Zen, such as we came in, we don't have a script.

• 12:58Speaker 02

  We are, we just gave ourselves the um, the thread of where we want to lead this conversation in. And as I am speaking, I am very, very much in the present moment. And I am looking at my understanding of Zen in order to bring it out. So it is a contemplation. Zen is an art of contemplation in order to see reality as it is. Like our teacher loves to quote the Buddha as in um, this particular phase and he it's almost like this is Zen, is that this is because that is. When we're able to have this understanding,

• 13:42Speaker 02

  you have this aha moment. You have this moment of just understanding, of seeing it as it is. So therefore, your insight manifest is born. And when we, when we um are practitioners of Buddhism,

• 14:03Speaker 02

  the Buddha didn't call himself a Zen master, so, but he is a Zen master. I think words and, and tradition help identify and help put into shape and forms

• 14:16Speaker 02

  the elements where we can invest our, our practice, our way of looking, our way of being.

• 14:24Speaker 02

  But very concretely, in the Zen school, we have practices of sitting meditation, the art of sitting still, sitting on a cushion, finding a stable posture, being relaxed in the posture, knowing how to sit upright, but not rigid. That in its own was my training for like four years, you know, like learning to sit upright. And how that uprightedness can translate into your daily life. So the first foundation of mindfulness, which is the core of Zen, is learning to be in the body, aware of the body in the body.

• 15:10Speaker 02

  So how are we sitting? How are we standing? How are we walking? How are we engaging? Like, this is all Zen at its core. So, yeah, it's, it's very unique how we um, when we see a beauty in Zen, and I think that's where um peoples are able and want to translate into their daily life, therefore they want a Zen lifestyle, for example. And sometimes I'm like, what does that mean? You know, it doesn't. So some people, that means a very beautiful home with, you know. Like the utmost simplicity. Where sometimes it's quite extreme, like even the monastery is not that simple.

• 15:55Speaker 02

  I'm like dude, sometimes I go to someone's um home and I'm like wow, your your home is more Zen than Plum Village. Like our Zen is like just spider webs, you know, like you see the interconnectedness of life. Not saying that, you know, we we don't want to put our attention to care for and keeping our home clean. But Zen can can have a flavor. And and in the the manifestation of the Zen school. Teachers and practitioners find way to help. Develop a form of of daily activity to ground ourselves. So therefore, in Japan, archery became a part of of Zen school.

• 16:39Speaker 02

  Because in the art of archery, there is a practice of learning to hold the bow, to pull the bow. There's a lot of attention like and the breathing to accompany it, the stance you have to take. And in um a lot of Zen schools. There's martial arts are introduced as a training to be aware of the body as well as to take care of the health. And to be active in the body too, because there is um a lot of training in the practice of sitting still. And for me, I can translate my meetings and my work as a very deep form of Zen art. How to not be carried away from um.

• 17:23Speaker 02

  The different sources of energy that generates through a meeting. Whether sometimes I feel annoyed or I feel so understood, I feel so overwhelmingly happy. But still, how do I keep my balance there? So Zen is is a source of of meditation to engage yourself in daily life. And what we will see that is quite um shared in the tradition is.

• 17:54Speaker 02

  There is a whole language to the culture of being in a monastery. For example, Joe, when you enter into the meditation hall. We all just offer a bow of presence to the hall. That's a very Zen practice. So when you come into the meditation hall, you're not particularly bowing to the Buddha, but you're bowing to the condition that this space allows us to touch, which is our stillness and to nurture our insight of of life. So we even bow to our cushion. And I I I remember Taiyi talking about, you know, it may sound silly that we're bowing to a cushion.

• 18:38Speaker 02

  But without a cushion, you can't sit. So it is a form, it is a manifestation for us to practice the art of Zen. So therefore, there is a gratitude to the material, the material forms of life. So Zen at at its core has three elements that we have to cultivate and activate. And the first energy, it is mindfulness. It is our awareness, our awareness within us and our awareness around us. So there are some practitioners and some brothers and sisters.

• 19:25Speaker 02

  Sometimes their mind is so busy and they may have had jobs and career outside that have overly stimulated them and the stillness practice is very difficult. So for example, in service meditation, their practice is to be in the garden, to do something very physical, to sweep the grounds, to clean the dining hall, to clean the toilets even. But it's something that's very practical that you can put your attention to. So there is a mindfulness of action. And so when we speak on mindfulness, it always has to be mindfulness or something.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  So when we see ourself being carried away by particular habits, then we want to see in our daily life, what are the chores? What are the daily activities that we can make to ground ourself? That's why there are Zen gardens being produced. Our calligraphy is an art. There's a lot of concentration. Bringing us to the second element is the concentration. In, if we are a practitioner, we can be mindful and our mindfulness can be very short-lived. Meaning it is an instant moment of awareness, but then it is gone. And particularly in our day and age where

• 20:52Speaker 02

  information is, um, is overbearing. There is a lot of, a lot of stimulation through what we see, what we hear. So we are exposed to so much, um, information in 24 hours. And therefore, we, we lose the capacity to look at each other, for example, or to uh, really just be there for one another without being distracted. So the art of concentration is part of the Buddhist lineage, is a teaching all the way from the Buddhist time. And it is very much encouraged to be practiced.

• 21:34Speaker 02

  And we speak in our podcast about the power of presence, right? Like, how can we be present? And in the presence, you have to have a concentration. Our teacher always gives us an example. And Joe, you, what you gave us an example, like when you see the wonders of life, of like all these birds coming there. You can just look at it and, and say, yeah, that's very beautiful. And then lose that moment right away and then go to our thinking, what we need to do next. Oh, I forgot about this, that, and we, we, we lose the present moment. So the concentration is the second element that we are that we train in our meditation. And naturally,

• 22:18Speaker 02

  will give rise to the ripening of insight. And insight, insight for us already is understanding. Insight is wisdom, insight is enlightenment. But our understanding, when we just begin, it may be the baby steps that we need to, to, to take. And then much later on, we may have bigger understanding that ripens from our practice. But even in the art of Zen, we have to see the cycle of no coming, no going. So there's an impermanence to, to, um, to life and to even our insight.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  Sometimes in the Zen school, we speak about letting go as a form of happiness. And this is very particular, um, in also our school of practice. And Taiyi always gives an example, let's say we're all practitioners and we can use the language of beginner as, as, as, um, an acknowledgement that I just started. And as we progress in our practice, we may have new insights of what we need to do. But then at one point, we realize we have to let go of that insight to reach another insight. So we, there's a lot of practice of never being too sure

• 23:45Speaker 02

  and not being too caught in what we're able to achieve even in this moment. And the word master is, it's, it's a very, it's, it's a very, um,

• 24:00Speaker 02

  it's a word that's quite heavy for me, like when people call someone a Zen master. It's a, it's a title, it's a wonderful title. But I think in this, in the art of Zen, the mind of a beginner's mind is the most precious mind. It's not a mind of a master. It is the beginner's mind because the beginner's mind, it embodies openness, it embodies curiosity, it embodies the, the wish to understand. But when you're a master, you know it. You think you know it, you're too sure, you're too, um, confident in it. So.

• 24:43Speaker 02

  So the essence of Zen, you can call it as simple as the beginner's mind, or we can even call it as simple as the art of stopping, the art of living.

• 24:58Speaker 02

  And I can confidently say that in the training of the Zen school, we have to embody the three elements, the three energies, and sometimes I call it the holy energies, the energy of mindfulness, the energy of concentration, and the energy of insight.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  Thank you, brother.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  We could probably stop there, but let's keep going.

• 25:52Speaker 02

  Done, the quickest podcast.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  This is the Zen episode. It's the shortest episode we've ever done. I want to bring in the element of sacredness, the sacred nature of life into this conversation. And that thought was triggered from you talking about bowing to the cushion. So I know that, I think, last year Plum Village did a collaboration with another organisation, and they came here. And one of the exercises they did in the main meditation hall involved some sort of game, which involved throwing the cushions.

• 26:29Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 26:31Speaker 01

  And that was... Within the meditation hall, which is a sacred space, and every object in the meditation is a sacred object. And you talked about bowing to the cushion. That the cushion, in that sense, is a sacred object. It supports us. It's, it stays, it sits in the meditation hall every day very quietly. And then to see those, the cushions used as a sort of, as a, an artifact for a game, felt very, it was very jarring. So, one thing I'm aware of is, is that when we stop,

• 27:12Speaker 01

  and we're, as you say, when we stop and focus our minds and have insights, what often we find is actually, things are very simple. That life is very simple and that we enliven even the most basic objects. So most people would not look at a cushion, even their own meditation cushion at home. They might, and they're sitting, but they won't treat it with reverence. So it'd be lovely to hear a little bit about, maybe even about that moment where those cushions were used in that way. But, but what it is, how Zen allows us to be present for even a simple object, for, for, for a single flower, that we, we don't need to have a field of flowers

• 27:56Speaker 01

  to see beauty, that sometimes in the midst of a sea of thorns, one flower can be as beautiful.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  Sacredness is very alive when the practice is alive. And that, that definition comes into play when we were in a space that has cultivated this energy of mindfulness, concentration, insight, such as, you know, coming into Thais Hut that we're sitting in. We have a mindful manners. So mindful manners are instruction of how monastics should behave in our daily life. And there is a particular manner that we all have to restart to learn. So just like as, when we...

• 28:47Speaker 02

  Are, let's say, professionals in, a teacher, we have a particular manner when we are business people, there are boundaries, da-da-da. So in, in, in the training of a practitioner, especially monks and nuns. But I, I'm slowly, as I'm developing classes here, I, I also want to teach to the laypeople, the monastic, the monastery culture. There is a way of how we conduct ourselves and hold ourselves in our way of being that embraces sacredness. And some of it, it is culturally, culturally influenced.

• 29:29Speaker 02

  So for example, the meditation hall that we, we talked, that we are talking about. For us, in the eastern, Southeast Asian culture, there's a lot of reverence towards our practice of ancestral worship. So, like our head, for example, our shaven head, in principle, nobody's allowed to touch it. Like, when kids come to Plum Village, and you will see monks, if like a kid tried to touch a monk's head, and if he's especially from Asia, he won't allow the kid to touch his head. And the kid may not understand the meaning of it. So we, we, we're not here to, you know, to judge people.

• 30:14Speaker 02

  When there's not understanding, there's not understanding. But for us, in, in our culture, like, when, when they ask us, um, "Do you love your parents", for example, you said, "Yes". "Where do you put your parents?", and we don't say "our heart", we say "on our head", because our head is like the highest point in our body, and it represents the ancestral continuation. So when our head is viewed in that way, so there's this kind of like respect to it. So our practice, it helps generate like, different meaning to, to a cushion, to the altar.

• 30:56Speaker 02

  Like, we are trained, whenever we pass the altar, we bow our heads.

• 31:05Speaker 02

  It may look like it's a worship practice, but there is just this element of, because we pass the altar where the Buddha, there's maybe a statue, or not even a statue, but an incense holder that represents our gratitude towards our ancestral lineage. And so when we pass it, we would lower our heads as a gesture of gratitude, of humbling oneself. Thanks to the previous human beings and teachers that we have these practices today. And when something is practiced in this way, suddenly there is a reverence, there is a respect.

• 31:49Speaker 02

  And this respect offers this energy of sacredness. And it comes into reality when there is sacredness. Our whole bodily relationship to a space changes. And I always see this when new friends come to Plum Village. For example, that practice of bowing when we enter the meditation hall and bowing when we leave the meditation hall. So Fridays are normally our arrival day, and we always start with a meditation in the evening, or sometime it is a total relaxation. It's something always in the big hall that we start off with. And a lot of, a lot, we are also always learning by what we see, right?

• 32:34Speaker 02

  So when there are practitioners that have been here for many times, and they practice that reverence that has a big influence to the people around them. And someone who just arrived will, just by being here, will also follow that practice, maybe at the beginning not knowing what it means, but now you know, thanks to this, thanks to this podcast. But it is this bow when we leave a space and we enter a space. It is like the acknowledgement of our... Presence that we have been here and we're grateful for being here and now we're leaving the space. And for the monastic, we also have, um, whenever we leave the monastery for any Sangha services

• 33:17Speaker 02

  or our home visit, our practice is to inform the three jewels. So we would get in front of an altar and we would like just join our palm and declare like in our hearts like we're about to go on a journey um to, let's say, to Canada. And we will have a tour for two weeks to offer our retreat and we ask the um um our patriarchs, our ancestors, um the three jewels to be witness to our deepest aspiration and to support and protect our journey. And that becomes a very sacred moment for us as an individual that knowing that we are about to step out of the monastery,

• 34:02Speaker 02

  knowing that we're not going to be in our safest environment. And our mindfulness practice has to be leveled up because we're entering into the world of no practice. And therefore that can penetrate into our way of thinking, being and speaking. So these very um concrete practices become sacred actions for us to prepare ourself. And then when we come back to the community, we also um come in front of the altar and we touch the earth to declare that we have returned home. And we also learn to not take our community for granted. So there is a practice, every time you come home from somewhere,

• 34:46Speaker 02

  you have to announce to the community that you are here. And and and you have to say these particular words. Uh, and I would like to ask permission to enter into the stream of practice here. So not to take for granted, even me as an abbot, when I leave and I come back to the Sangha, I still have to ask permission to re-enter into the Sangha. So this was built in our culture. And and for me, this is something that is very sacred practice to not take for granted of what we have. And so.

• 35:25Speaker 02

  The sacredness is developed through our energy of awareness of a space, how we relate to it. And the meditation hall is very sacred. And at the same time, we are so flexible, especially in Plum Village, because we are limited in our space. So sometimes we turn it also into a place where we would offer

• 35:51Speaker 02

  a mindful poetry and concert, for example. But the way then we conduct ourselves in it changes, right? And sometimes when the World Cups come around, we would organize to watch the finals in the big hall. So there is this, there is this understanding of what the hall is. It is a holder for us. It's a sacred holder. But we're flexible enough to also arrange so that our community activity can still run through the programs that needs to run. So this is where I really like Plum Village. Like, and this is a spirit that I try to hold, like the flexibility of a community

• 36:35Speaker 02

  and the flexibility of what is sacred. And because somebody once asked us, like, they think when monastics

• 36:46Speaker 02

  play music is not sacred. Because sometimes they see us rehearse, but then when they see us do it, they're like, oh, my God, that was so beautiful. So the idea of sacredness is a very interesting idea to visit and to see what it defines. And of course, yes, like when, I think that was two years ago, Joe, actually. All right, yeah. Yeah, or was it two years or even three years? Time, time, time. Another Zen thing. That's another Zen thing. Time is just, it's just a practice here. But I do remember that moment. And it was Brother Spirit who, I think it it touched a button in him where it's like, we cannot be this disrespectful in this space.

• 37:31Speaker 02

  And I think because there was no understanding of what it means, and so.

• 37:37Speaker 02

  So the cushions were being just thrown here and there and Brother Spirit was just saying like, he's like, as a Westerner, I know our um our relationship to objects is is very um, I don't know the word he used, but it was saying like, it's very worldly, like, these are just for us to sit. But he said, in the spiritual dimension and in the spiritual practice, there is a reverence to everything that that is in our our space. Even a cup of tea, even a candle, even um even when we sweep the ground, like even the dirt that is there, it's,

• 38:20Speaker 02

  it can be very sacred because thanks to the dirt, we're able to sweep. And thanks to the sweeping, we have our practice of simplicity.

• 38:29Speaker 01

  Hmm, beautiful, brother. And just uh where you talked about watching um football competitions in the big hall and I I wasn't there, but I've been told that at one of these big events, I don't know if it's the World Cup or the European Champion Final, that uh Tai came into the hall. And that while everyone was watching the football, he was watching all the monastics.

• 38:53Speaker 02

  Yes, it's true. Um he's so, Tai's so cheeky sometimes. Actually, one time, he he always comes at the beginning, just to like, just just as a teacher, you know, um showing that he supports this. And and and you know, because by him showing support to it, it it means that even a Zen master, for the sake of titles and the sake of like reverence, um his showing up means that this is okay for us. And and one time, he even took his chair and he sat in front of the um of the of the projector to look at the whole community. It was so funny. And but he, you know,

• 39:36Speaker 02

  because Tai Tai does it as a joke, so he comes and he does it and then he laughs and then he goes back and he sits for just a little bit and then he would leave the hall.

• 39:44Speaker 01

  Mindful cheering, mindful competitive spirit.

• 39:48Speaker 02

  But then, you know, Tai, then Tai, he's so cheeky, so he in his some of some of his Dhamma talk, he's like, sometimes, because as a teacher, he has to also remind us of our practice and he's like, You know, sometimes it's so difficult to get all of you to sit in stillness for thirty minutes, but you can sit there and watch a game for ninety minutes without moving.

• 40:11Speaker 01

  Even if you need to go to a P, you do not move.

• 40:14Speaker 02

  You do not move. That's how exciting the game is. He's like, we have to make our meditation that exciting. Like, we have to see that, that um being aware and having the ability to take care of our ourself in the practice of sitting is as exciting and challenging as scoring a goal.

• 40:33Speaker 01

  Oh, nice one, brother.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  So, uh, I just want to come on to um to how uh sort of Zen shows up in our everyday life.

• 40:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:47Speaker 01

  So you've mentioned uh sweeping and cleaning toilets. And uh and brother, I uh about three weeks ago, I saw a film which is still resonating in me. And it's a new film, I think it's from last year called by Vin vendors called Perfect Days. And it is the most Zen film I've ever seen, and it's about a toilet cleaner in Japan. And on one level, it looks like the most boring film. Because every day you just see him get out of bed, roll up his um mattress, drive to work, clean toilets, and then come home at the end of the day. And then at the weekend, do, you know, go to, he goes to a little cafe every time and they greet him.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  And and on the surface, as I say, it's like, why am I watching this film? It's like watching paint dry. But actually, as you, as I watched it, what you realize is he's living a perfect life because he's finding meaning in everything.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  The way he cleans the toilets is as a service. You know, he, he uses a mirror underneath to make sure everything is perfectly clean. He puts his heart and soul into it. He goes every day and sits on a bench and eats a sandwich and just looks at the shimmering leaves of the tree and takes very artistic photos. And, and every day he goes and has a, a drink at the same bar, but every day they welcome him. And as you see the film develop, you see, actually, he's leading this incredibly rich life. And everywhere he goes, he's welcomed as, as someone with real stability and people treat him with great respect.

• 42:34Speaker 01

  And, um, and it, it sort of reasons resonating to me because I see such truth in that. And, um, and as you were just talking now about the meditation hall, you know, one of the joys that people had when Ty was alive was just to see him enter the hall, to see him open a door. I remember someone saying, I arrived for the first time in Plum Village, I saw Ty open a door and I, I learned everything I need to learn. And, um, and you, you've talked to yourself in a past episode about your joy of sweeping. And that actually we, we can find meaning in everything, but most of the time, especially

• 43:19Speaker 01

  in the West, these me, so-called menial tasks, we try and get them over as quickly as possible. We don't enjoy them. They're just a distraction from what we want to be doing. So can you just talk about, and maybe through you seeing Ty as well as other things, why is it so important? And how can we find the joy in how we open a door?

• 43:46Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 43:48Speaker 02

  That's very Zen, by the way. Super Zen.

• 43:52Speaker 01

  It's Zen plus.

• 43:56Speaker 02

  Being mindful is to establish yourself to be so alive in the present moment that nothing becomes boring. And a part of our practice of stopping is learning to have a routine. And this gentleman that you spoke about in this film seemed very content with a routine.

• 44:19Speaker 01

  Very content.

• 44:20Speaker 02

  And I think this contentment, it gives you so much freedom.

• 44:26Speaker 02

  And there's a precept in our Ten Novice Precept. Precept mean is like one of our rules that we that we live by and that we practice by. And precept is also our guidelines for us. And it's the sixth precept in the novice pre in the novice precepts. And it speaks on not being caught in in using cosmetic or wearing jewelry. So it's about the outer appearance. And I think it will, it speaks about this beauty. And our teacher translated it so that it's modern to our time.

• 45:06Speaker 02

  The sixth precept, I'm not using cosmetic or wearing jewelry. Aware that the true beauty of a monk or a nun is found in his or her stability and freedom. I vow to adorn myself and my sangha, sangha means community, with the practice of mindfulness made concrete by my trainings in the precepts and mindful manners at all moments. I realize that cosmetic and jewelry only bring about an outer show of attractiveness and foster attachment and infatuation.

• 45:43Speaker 02

  Therefore, I vow to live simply and dress neatly, wearing clean clothes. I resolve not to use perfume, powder, or other cosmetic or jewelry.

• 45:55Speaker 02

  So, this is a training, um, to see and to revisit what is our definition of beauty? What is our definition of life? And as a practitioner, when we enter into the monastery, you, you, you have to prepare yourself to come, in a way. Um, you want to bring yourself to, to a practice where you are slowly let... The saying in, in, in Vietnamese is like, you are letting the dust of the world settle. So you're empty, so that you can just experience the present moment, the teachings, the...

• 46:39Speaker 02

  And when we speak about teaching, like what that friend has shared to you, just by seeing a monk open the door is a training in itself. It's, it's a teaching in itself. And when, when we speak about finding the, the attractiveness to life, it reminds me of this, um, this love letter that Thai wrote to Mother Earth and his encouragement to everyone is like, we have to refine our love to Mother Earth again. It's like we have to love Earth again in order to live and care for it deeply. So I think the art of Zen and the art of meditation

• 47:23Speaker 02

  is seeing the mundane thing, like seeing the simple, everyday life, it becomes a sacred action. And because our relationship to what we are doing has deep meaning. And that deep meaning, it represents our inner beauty, our inner contentment to this life. So when, when you, when you have something and you know it is enough, you don't have to chase anymore. Your life suddenly becomes so much more deeper and relaxed. Like, how many of us, like, I, cause I, I, I remember this, like, um, um...

• 48:07Speaker 02

  When you know one of your laptop is not good enough anymore. You have to have a, you're getting ready to buy a new laptop. You go down twenty different channels of YouTube of reviews. You go on the internet, you type down, what do I need? Then, you know, you get all of this information. And it's this constant energy of looking for the one machine that does it all, right? And then suddenly, you finally buy this machine and you have it, it's enough. Then suddenly, you don't look and you don't chase anymore.

• 48:49Speaker 02

  That's like, that's a feeling of you have enough now. So I think part of our practice in the simplicity of practice is to know what we have is enough, is to arrive there, even in the state of the practice. Knowing that this moment, who you are, still not able to sit still, still agitated. That is still enough because there is a practice. And Thay was, he was so simple. I mean, his heart here is just, it's just everything in one, it's so compact. And it's so difficult to buy something for Thay.

• 49:34Speaker 02

  I've seen so many people give Thay gift. And as a monk, our practice is we have to receive all the gifts unless it is totally inappropriate.

• 49:47Speaker 02

  But the majority of the times, we accept all the gifts. And, you know, people would buy Thay a new jacket or buy Thay a new sweater. Even the monastics, because sometimes we see Thay has an old jacket and we want him to have something new. And he always accepts it with grace and he gives it to me and he said, no, give it to the Sangha.

• 50:09Speaker 02

  And I never tell the person though, you know, unless one day they come into the monastery.

• 50:13Speaker 01

  They would have hung it up on the wall from time.

• 50:16Speaker 02

  They see someone wearing it. But yeah, so it's, you know, for the longest time, like Thay only had two long robes. And we traveled everywhere with two long robes. And for him, that was enough, you have enough. So in the...

• 50:35Speaker 02

  Like maturity of like of the spirit of living deeply to this moment. When you have enough, you you stop running and and and um. And chasing after something, you have such freedom. But that doesn't mean you have to enforce others. So we have to be very skillful here. So Thay was a very simple monk, but he's a very caring teacher. So when those of us who don't have enough, he was like, you know, one time he's like Sogochang Kong, which was like his his personal assistant, like go buy the community jackets, for example, you know, so there is, there's a middle way to everything.

• 51:20Speaker 02

  And even to the practice of having a routine, routines are so important and are so um practical and the schedule, it becomes our teacher because it helps realign our our energies, but we also have to have the flexibility to um to not be so caught in form. Form is important, form is a form can support us, but form shouldn't entrap us.

• 51:53Speaker 01

  Hmm, beautiful brother, and um for those uh many listeners who haven't been to Plum Village and particularly haven't been in Plum Village in the Lunar New Year, which recently happened, um the monks and nuns for one day each open their rooms uh for visitors. And and I remember the first time uh we arrived and were living in Plum Village, we came to visit the your rooms, brother, and the rooms of your monastic brothers and sisters. And. There's nothing there. I mean, each, each, you know, first of all, the monks and nuns

• 52:32Speaker 01

  share rooms, sometimes up to five or six nuns, monks less, two or three normally. But it's a small room that you share. There's just a single bed for each of you and normally the monks will just sleep on the floor on a wooden board. There's no like luxury mattress or anything. There can be a couple of bookshelves or, but often those are half empty. And, and, and that's pretty much it. And then, then under the bed, there's a normally a box where keepsakes are kept. And, and I remember the, the first time I came to visit, I left

• 53:13Speaker 01

  so embarrassed because I thought, oh my God, I have so much, you know, it's just like, I don't need any of this to be happy. And it was, it was such a, a lesson in how little we need. But also, brother, I want to bring in that Zen doesn't mean not appreciating beauty. Yes. And so one of the things I know about you, brother, is you don't have very much, but everything you do have is very beautiful. That, that you have a, a style about you, you have a, a deep appreciation of beauty. When you do get something, I always know

• 53:55Speaker 01

  that you, you recently got a coffee machine and it's, it's like such an elegant coffee machine, you know, it's just so simple, it's such a Zen machine, it just has, it's just so simple. And yet it's, it has great beauty in it. And even, you know, you have a pair of Birkenstock shoes, which are, which are brown suede and they're, but they're very elegant. And, and I think that sometimes people mistake Zen for the need to be dishevelled. And in a sense, time, you know, you could call him a bit dishevelled. He had one jacket and, and as you described, you were, you know, when he was going to important events like meeting famous dignitaries or going to speak in global events, and he just had

• 54:36Speaker 01

  this, he looked like the sort of someone who maybe was, was homeless or didn't, didn't have a home and, and it just, you wanted to smarten him up and he said, no, I, I've got enough. So, so I, I really like the fact that you're, you're giving that. That sense of freedom that just because one person's one thing doesn't mean then to be a student of that person is to be exactly the same of them. And because I I really appreciate your sense of beauty and that whenever I see you, I you have an elegance about you, even though what you have is so simple.

• 55:11Speaker 02

  Well, first of all, thank you so much, Joe.

• 55:12Speaker 01

  Oh, yes, I've never told you that before.

• 55:17Speaker 02

  It's, yeah, I think I think part of Zen is learning oneself, is learning

• 55:26Speaker 02

  who we are, like what, how we want to represent ourselves every day. And the elegance, I I owe the credit to the mindful manners, really. And and I really owe it to also the the elders that I have in the community of their way of upholding themselves and their elegance in in being. And sometimes the elegance is so powerful, it's their their way of just sitting and listening and their way of showing up, you know, I I and and what I like about this community is like we we have a range of of of brothers and sisters and we all

• 56:09Speaker 02

  carry our society with us, our heritage with us. And we all also carry our our lineage from our parents, like how they show up for themselves. But what you mentioned is very true, though, because like even in this precept, like it says, I vow to dress neatly, wear clean clothes. Isn't that interesting, is in here? That that means that as a monastic, we live simply, but it doesn't mean we don't care. And the caring is not just about you. Because when you care for how you dress, you make sure that you don't have odor.

• 56:53Speaker 02

  For example, you're caring for your community. When you are taking care of how you show up, you want to take care of your health. You want to take care of your eating, your sleeping, your well-being. So that has an impact to the whole community. And our teacher also said that each and every one of us, whether we like it or not, we are representing the three jewels that represents the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha, which is a tradition or a religion. So it is more than you. So when somebody bows to you, they're not bowing to you as an individual. Thay said this like very strongly. He said they're bowing to what you represent.

• 57:35Speaker 02

  So what you, so the way you're conducting yourself, you want to, you want to remind yourself that what you're representing. And that is why we have different clothing as monastic. We have a robe. In our tradition, it's the color brown because that was from the time of the peasants and the farmers of Vietnam. Brown was the color that represent like the working class in a way, and it represents simplicity. So the monastic took on the color brown. So for us to have a robe, it is to remind us of the precepts that we have made vows to practice.

• 58:19Speaker 02

  Why do we shave our head? It's the motion of cutting through our affliction, transforming our suffering to be of service to the world. And it's a very clean sign, like I am a monastic. Like, leave me alone.

• 58:37Speaker 01

  And don't touch my head.

• 58:38Speaker 02

  Don't intoxicate me, you know? It's like, don't, don't, don't bring worldly things to me that is not appropriate. Like, it's just very clear signs. And Thay, you know, when the kids ask Thay this in the summers, Thay would also say, and... Like, don't ask me to be your boyfriend or girlfriend, you know, because sometimes monastic are like exotic fruits.

• 59:01Speaker 01

  Just out of reach.

• 59:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like when something you cannot reach, um, you you fall in love with it. And I think I've. I know that there are people who have shared like, wow, the way that monastic is is so beautiful. I'm like in love with that beauty. And the beauty that that they're in love with is the simplicity. It's their presence, it's their way that they can listen, their way of showing up is so gentle. You know, and as monastic, we do have very concrete practices to take care of our boundaries and to protect our deepest aspiration, because we're very human and attraction and sexual desire is still very real.

• 59:42Speaker 02

  Um, and we have to be mindful of our energies, our approach, our physical contact, our um, um, attention to the details, the most smallest detail. And that's why, um, um, in our mindful manners, like how we present ourself is an art in itself. And Tai is very, um, he pays a lot of attention to this. I I remember like one of the attendants who came to be his attendant forgot to shave his face. Tai said, go back and shave and then you can be my attendant.

• 1:00:27Speaker 02

  But it's because like you're gonna be like Tai's a, he's a teacher to so many. So if you're gonna be with me, you have to show up correctly, you know. And it can be, sometimes it can be quite strong, but I think sometimes, especially for the brothers, um. I think the sisters are much neater than us. The brothers, like, sometimes they just let go and they just let their hair grow. Like, we, we have a rule, like, in two weeks, you have to shave your head. But on tours, in retreats, for example, like, every few days, like, we shave our head just to show up neatly and, and be presentable. And, and when we go out into the public, we always have to have our long robes on.

• 1:01:08Speaker 02

  For example, like, these are very sudden, subtle gesture and practices, but they inform our way of being. So I think if we are to dress, and I, I would love to work with fashion designer to create Zen Plum Village Wear, because I do believe that, um, how we adorn ourselves can represent our inner, inner space, you know? And Tai, Tai also encouraged us, um, your room represents your mind. How do you take care of your bed? You know, how do you take care of your desk? How do you tidy up? Like, I, like, sometimes, like, I think it's part of my nature to be like, eh,

• 1:01:51Speaker 02

  a mad scientist, like, sometimes my desk is just like, covered with like, so many things. And, and, and honestly, Tai's desk too. Because I was his attendant, so I could say this, it's like, notes everywhere. There's notes everywhere, and, and we, we, we can just make things tidy. But then from time to time, when you clean your desk, and then your desk is just empty, it's, ah, I just feel so good. And then I know the impermanence is gonna get messy again. And then you just practice with it, and, and then create a discipline, you know? Like, these are very concrete habits that we can train ourselves in.

• 1:02:31Speaker 02

  Like, like, I have a knack, like, I love folding clothes, like, like, when it's like, nice, and my OCD kicks in, it's like, clean, perfect lines, you know? Like, I, I love doing that. And that becomes, instead of looking at, at it as something that maybe, yeah, maybe not wholesome, I change that into a practice. Like, every time I fold, like, I'm just really present for it. The clothes I get to wear, the monastic robe. So, thank you for addressing that, and thank you for, like, bringing that up. But I, I do see, uh- How form can play a role in our way of showing up?

• 1:03:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:46Speaker 01

  Thank you, brother. And one of the things I always liked about Tai was that as a journalist,

• 1:03:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:54Speaker 01

  he would not let someone interview him unless they were taking part in a retreat and had tasted the practice before they met him. And it made me think that if there are any wonderful designers out there who may say, "Oh, well, I'd like to help people who design some clothes", that one has to embody the practice to be present for the practice. So I think what I'm saying is if someone came along who was leading this mad cat lifestyle and said, "Yeah, I'd love to design some clothes and I've got some designs already here.

• 1:04:37Speaker 01

  What do you think of them?", is not really what you're looking for. What you would want is someone who has understood the practice, who is centered, who sees the design as an embodiment of the practice, not that they're just trying to create a beautiful set of clothes.

• 1:04:55Speaker 02

  100%, because the creation has to come from the insight of understanding what it is we are manifesting together and how it can be a support for the practice. Tai did write in 2014 a letter to the community and to the wider community in his envisioning of...

• 1:05:20Speaker 02

  The Plum Village tradition taking root in the West. He said, Tai believes that one day all of our monastic uniform will change here. Because it will take root into a new generation. But when we design the robes, it has to embody humility, simplicity. And it's a definition of practitioners. It helps define that for the monastic. And then for the lay, I also think that there can be something that helps us also touch that freedom of being alive. You know, like the suit gives you a particular energy, the jeans give you a particular energy.

• 1:06:04Speaker 02

  When you go to the gym, you have a gym set, right? When you go to work, you have a work set. When you're at home, you're in your comfy pajamas. So I think like to create something so it's so that embraces, it bridges the world and the spiritual practice together.

• 1:06:24Speaker 02

  And Plum Village is very open, like, you know. I don't want suddenly like everybody to have been the same dress because that's really scary. You know, that's very cult energy, but that's not what we're aiming for. But I just envisioned like, because Tai said like, every home should have a breathing corner as a Zen space in your own home. So when you're angry or when you know that you need to cultivate your inner peace, you come to that space. And so many friends have set it up. They brought, they have bought a cushion when they come to Plum Village, they bring it home. They set that corner or sometimes it's a room even.

• 1:07:07Speaker 02

  And that becomes a space that you create in your own home, a sacred space. So I think the body, when we look at the body, the body is very sacred. And how do we adorn and how do we present ourselves can be very sacred also.

• 1:07:24Speaker 01

  Thank you, brother. I just want to bring in, you talked about the couplet of simplicity and humility. So I just want to talk a bit about humility because

• 1:07:38Speaker 01

  One of the things I've noticed is that, actually something you and I share, brother. So if I'm invited to go to a conference or I'm running a workshop somewhere and I turn up and it's not prepared, I don't say, oh, it's not prepared, who's doing this, but I will always join in. There's something for me about not having a sense of superiority, I'm too important to do something. And I always remember when I worked at The Guardian, that there was a, there was this horrible sense of superiority between, let's say, the journalists who looked down on everyone else. So if the people who looked after the building were

• 1:08:20Speaker 01

  considered inferior to the journalists, because the journalists did that, and I would say, no, then that is not true, because if your toilets are all blocked up and your electricity isn't working, or the, and the computers are down, you have nothing to offer. So in other words, the people who was, who were considered to have inferior jobs, their job was actually just as important.

• 1:08:44Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:08:45Speaker 01

  And, and I've noticed this too about you, brother, that, that you are the abbot, you could even, you have an abbot card you can pull if you want to. But when there's work to be done, let's say in the meditation hall, doing all the cushions, you are there helping, that you've talked in the past about, that outside your office is the sort of recycling and the bins, and that, that if you see something is doing, you'll do it, you don't just walk past it and expect someone else to do it. So for me, Zen is also about the humility of always helping out and not seeing one job as being superior to another job. And

• 1:09:29Speaker 01

  I'd love you to talk a little bit about that, and in general, but also you personally, that, that, you know, that, and coming back to this film, that, and I'm not very good at this, I have to admit, but, you know, when I do the washing up, it's normally to get rid of it, get it over with, as opposed to really investing my time, you know, that's still such a learning for me. So I'd love that sense of, you know, your take and the Plum Village practice of humility.

• 1:10:00Speaker 02

  I think humility for me is one of the most beautiful quality of a human being. Because humility is in some way, it transcends all the three complexes. Whether you feel inferior, or you are superior, or you are equal. Because humility is, it's just this, it's this space of wanting to be there. And it's like this openness energy, like you can be of service anywhere. And humility has to also come with responsibility. So for me, at the beginning, like on a personal level,

• 1:10:42Speaker 02

  like it was very easy for me to practice humility because I came in when I was 13 years old. So definitely I didn't know anything. And so I was, I was trained to be a listener, a follower, and to have my own awareness, to be mindful of, you know, learning from the good habits and not the bad habits of also my brothers and sisters, right? And when you are humble, then your ability to, to learn is incredible. And I always, I always remind, you know, the practitioners that come to Plum Village, like brothers or sisters, or lay, laymen, or laywoman, or, or layperson.

• 1:11:25Speaker 02

  It's like, don't just learn through the classes and the Dhamma talks or the workshops here. You, you will learn much more by paying attention. And that's how I learned, like in the early days of Plum Village, we didn't have classes. We, if you had a class, it was like, oh my God, we, we got a class today, you know? Because the Sangha was still so young at that time. And the, the elders that we had weren't so many. But as we've all aged, so we, we've gained experience and we try to articulate the teachings into different pots so that we can teach. And we helped our teacher, Tai wanted us to help him in training also.

• 1:12:06Speaker 02

  And to, humility is when you know how to be a younger sibling.

• 1:12:13Speaker 02

  And you can only be an elder sibling when you know how to be a younger sibling. You can only learn to be a leader if you know how to be a follower. Or else you're leading with your crazy ideas with being out of touch of the of reality. And and then you don't have compassion, you're you're you don't have empathy. So humility practice for me is the part of the beginner's mind layer. And when when I am now in the community where I am at,

• 1:12:53Speaker 02

  I'm always humble because of the life I get to live. And today, in one of the classes, I was teaching to the the big shoes to be. There are groups of monks who are about to be fully ordained in a few months. So once a week, we I we dig into the the precepts of the the big shoes. And there was a precept today, it it sounds very simple, but it's like it. I'm paraphrasing, it's like our practice is to never take for granted our parents, our teacher, our community and the benefactors, that the the people who offer donation to the community. Not to think that we are above them, that because we're monastic, so therefore we get all of this.

• 1:13:39Speaker 02

  And and I I share to them, you know, it sounds very simple, but it's very easy to take for granted what we have. It's very easy to think that we can outdo each other. And like, I've had, okay, like this is this is spilling some tea in the podcast.

• 1:14:02Speaker 02

  Listeners will love this.

• 1:14:05Speaker 02

  One time I was traveling with a monk, an elder brother. We were on a trip to Italy and he's he he is a Dharma teacher and he was starting to write books for for for people. And it was in Vietnamese and he his target audience were young people.

• 1:14:28Speaker 02

  And I was just a curious younger brother. I was like, so, you know, how do you come about with the books? Like, where's your aspiration? Like, what informs you and what inspires you to? And I was just curious. And we had a wonderful conversation. And at the end, I think he let it slip. I think he let it slip. And he said, I think my books are better than Thay.

• 1:14:53Speaker 02

  And I was just, I just sat there and I'm like, this is awkward. And I was just silent. And I'm like, you know, I couldn't say anything. I was just nodding my head. I'm like, hmm, if you think so, you know? But I was so young back then. And like, Thay, like, I just want to say this. Like, Thay has always wanted us to be better than him. Because there's a saying in Vietnamese, like,

• 1:15:22Speaker 02

  meaning like, if the children are more talented than the parents, then our whole lineage has good merit. Because we continue our parents, right? We continue our teacher. So Thay have said, like, to the monastic, in monastic talks, like, if you are better than Thay, Thay will be so happy. You know? And that's an encouragement for us. That's a boost, a motivation, that Thay is entrusting the future to us. But I think there are some things you just never say. You know? As a practitioner, to be humble and to, and you know, and I was curious. So I read, you know, some of chapters of the book. And I mean, everything is Plum Village.

• 1:16:07Speaker 02

  Like, this is literally Thay. Like, this book, like, you're a continuation. And I guess, like, as an individual, like, you let other people say that it's good. You don't beat your own chest. And that was a brother who I have a lot of respect. And unfortunately, down the path, he's not a monk anymore.

• 1:16:34Speaker 02

  So our humble mind and our like, our intentions, we have to be very mindful of them. Because it can damage our gratitude. And I share this to the, to, to the young big shu, young novice, the novices who are going to become big shu. Because sometimes, like, don't take lightly the words you announce. They come with particular energies that, that will come into play. And, and for this particular brother, you know, yeah, his, his, his self was so big that when he came into a crisis, he didn't listen to, to the community to, to realign on the path.

• 1:17:20Speaker 02

  And he found himself leaving the monastery and disrobing and so on. And he was such a bright brother, so talented. And there's a saying in the Zen school, talent has to go with virtue.

• 1:17:33Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:17:34Speaker 02

  If there's no virtue, put that talent away. Like, we was like, we'd rather have you than that talent. We'd rather have you as a monk than that talent. Because if the virtue is not there, then the talent only becomes pride and self.

• 1:17:50Speaker 01

  Thank you, brother. Uh, there's one final thing that's on my mind, which I'd, I'd like to explore a little bit. And that is about sophistication and intellectualization. And this is particularly true in, in the West. And also I find in some of the Western monks and nuns that there's, um, that people often intellectualize the practice rather than be in the practice. And then also beyond that, in, you know, in normal society, living in cities, there's this sort of, um... Appreciation within the culture of the more sophisticated we are, the more intelligent

• 1:18:33Speaker 01

  we come across, the more we have esteem and the more complex the words we use, you know, the least, the less understandable it is, the better it must be. And yet for me Zen, and coming back to simplicity, is about coming, is, is that actually the less sophistication, the better. And Tai would often say that actually some of the worst practitioners are the intellectual, the people, the, the, who are researching Buddhism or professors of Buddhism, that often they're the poorest practitioners because they're stuck in their mind.

• 1:19:12Speaker 01

  Um, so I'd love you to share a bit about that place of simplicity because, again, you know, sometimes things are about coming with age and experience, but, but the older I get, the more I appreciate the simplicity and, and, and that, that if I'm speaking to someone, that there's a power in the simple words, in the heartfelt message, in the fact that I'm looking someone in the eye and that half of the conversation, if not more, is in the knowing rather than in the verbal expression.

• 1:19:54Speaker 01

  And yet, so many people, and as I say, including some of the young Western monks, so much is based in the, in the, trying to work it out in their mind and, and get, creating complexity and then often getting lost. So I would love you to just talk about, you know, Zen as a place of, in a sense, knowing and then as a place of thinking.

• 1:20:18Speaker 02

  Yes, sophistication and simplicity. I think the two of them also have a deep relationship to each other. Because sometimes, um, thanks to studying something that is so sophisticated, you have the aspiration to make it simple.

• 1:20:36Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 1:20:36Speaker 02

  And I think that's what Taiyi experienced, you know, in Taiyi's journey of renewing Buddhism and making Buddhism um, um, alive again, was to bring back the very core essence of the practice that has to do with our everyday life, like our emotions, our feelings, our well-being. And then, accepting it, and then just channeling it. And then, then here, then you have the, the simple teaching become sophisticated. So, oh, I have all these emotions, so what do I do with this emotion? Would I bring da, da, da, da, and then you create a whole story out of it.

• 1:21:17Speaker 02

  And sometimes it's just like, no, no, no, stop and just feel it and just be with it. And then just, just channel it to something that is very simple, like action. Like coming back to what we said at the beginning, like, part of Zen is bringing into, into motion the, um, the simplicity of life. Like when we are, um, watering a flower, we know we're watering a flower. When we're washing a dish, we know we're washing a dish. So when we're sophisticated, it's good to go into something that is simple action, to directly bring it there.

• 1:22:00Speaker 02

  Because our mind, it's, it's a magnificent storyteller and creator of so much more. So.

• 1:22:13Speaker 02

  I think we do, we do need the scholars, we do need the poets, we need the, we need some sophistication, I would say,

• 1:22:26Speaker 02

  that are able to articulate like the Dhamma, are able to articulate the situation of the world in the here and now and present it in a Dhammic language. For example, Sister Tru Dedication is a magnificent speaker and the way she's able to articulate something, I am always in awe. I'm in wonder every time, like whenever we have her on the podcast. I know, we both shut up. Yeah, we just like zip it, Joe, zip it, Fapu, let our sister, give her the mic and let it run, you know, and it's true.

• 1:23:06Speaker 02

  But Sister Tru Dee also has the deepest practice of simplicity. So I think it's also by nature, like I, Thay is a scholar. He would never call himself a scholar, but he is a scholar, like Thay. He's a poet, he's an author. But the way he carries himself, I think that is what we remember. I remember. But I guess like when you're, when you only have the intellect, then we become only attached to the intellect and we want to be remembered by the intellect. And I think, I know that Thay was trying to bridge

• 1:23:51Speaker 02

  the academic space of Buddhism into the practical space. And that's why his aspiration in the European Institute of Applied Buddhism, at one stage, as it evolves, it would have a branch where it is geared to have classes. It can teach, you know, like Buddhist ecology, Buddhist history, different sutras. But then it always has to go hand in hand with a practice, like a living practice. And part of that living practice is monks and nuns that commit their life to the Dhamma. So that sacred energy that we've been speaking about is carried through and it's not the academic space that is carried through.

• 1:24:36Speaker 02

  Academic has its role in in the world and in history and in culture.

• 1:24:44Speaker 02

  But it's almost like we all know our lane in a way like I I you know, Joe, like. I've always had a complex of like not not having higher education like I was finished at. I finished grade eight and that was it and then I came and became a monk. And then in the monastery, you know, you have monks and nuns with PhD. You have monks and nuns with career, worked at the BBC, was a composer. Da da da da da da like we are a garden of so many human beings here. And to be honest, like, you know, sometimes um I would feel inferior to these siblings because like they have so much more world experience.

• 1:25:23Speaker 02

  And during one of my crises, like I was just like, dude, maybe I just need to go out and like like like get in touch with this other aspect. So I was like painting a different picture and fast forward, you know, last year. I think I had a realization that I'm so grateful.

• 1:25:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:44Speaker 02

  That I'm so grateful that I stopped at grade eight and I found a school, which is Plum Village, a school of life that. This is my this is my language, like there's no grades here, there's no tests here. Um but there's always learning and for me, I've tried to be sophisticated, honestly. Like I've shared this to like some of my closest siblings, like you know how Thai Thai and and and some of my brothers and sisters, whenever they give teachings, they always use the whiteboard.

• 1:26:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:16Speaker 02

  I barely use the whiteboard. I always have it there and in my mind, I'm like, yeah, you know, I'm gonna write something to sound smart. But that's not me. And I'm just like, no, who I am is like, I can I I'll just share from experience and I can thread in the Dharma. And that is my greatest strength. And knowing oneself has been a part of the sophistication, but then becomes the simplicity. So I think in the two, they they hold something that is that is so beautiful, but what is most beautiful is the simplicity. And I think of designs, right? Like coming back to fashion. When you want something that is so tailor made and so clean and neat,

• 1:27:00Speaker 02

  it's sophisticated because you have to measure, you have to take care of every angle. You have to make sure that it is it is all done so beautifully that when someone wears it, it looks so simple and so beautiful. The same thing with architects. Yeah, I've been working so much for architects. So I'm I'm a little well versed in this particular world. But also, like, like in language, you you have to read, learn, study. And I I like the sophisticated stuff, even though sometimes I don't understand it, honestly. But they're watering something and maybe just a curiosity. But then not to be lost in it, I think, is the greatest art.

• 1:27:45Speaker 02

  And for me, like, knowing that simplicity is something that everybody can can be close to has has been very empowering for me because I think I am someone who's quite simple. But I am in wonders and I am in awe of people who can be in the sophistication, adapt to the sophistication as well as make it so simple.

• 1:28:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, and we love it that you're not that way. And that, you know, my wife Peres calls you a dharmic jukebox. She said you could just pop a coin and press any button. And you know, because because you've learned it by soaking it up and and refining it. And it's a bit like, you know, looking for gold, where you you know, you have the sieve and you have to sieve through a lot of mud to find the nuggets. And I feel you've been spending your life sifting through a lot of mud, but finding those nuggets. And when they're When you find them, they're your nuggets. Whereas I think the problem with the intellect is that people can learn about a nugget, but that's not the same as knowing it.

• 1:29:24Speaker 01

  So, brother, I want a bit of fun just before we end. So I started out by saying that I see Zen everywhere. So, and I mentioned two examples, I think. I mentioned about seeing packets of crisps, which are called Zen crisps. And also, there's a hairdresser in our local town of Bergerac, which says Zen hairdresser.

• 1:29:43Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:29:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I want to ask you a question from a Zen perspective. So let's just pick those two examples. So if you were eating a pack of Zen crisps, what would it mean to eat them in a Zen way? That's my first question.

• 1:30:03Speaker 02

  I love crisps, so I would enjoy it to the fullest.

• 1:30:08Speaker 01

  Okay, that'll do. So, and the other one, which made me laugh even as I was thinking about it, was if you were a Zen hairdresser, which I'd love, I'd love a Zen monk to be a hairdresser. Just, you know, to look at my hair, you can trust me. But if you were a Zen hairdresser, what would it mean? What's the difference between just any old hairdresser and a Zen hairdresser? What would it mean?

• 1:30:31Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:30:33Speaker 01

  If you were cutting someone's hair, what would it mean to cut someone's hair?

• 1:30:38Speaker 01

  With Zen.

• 1:30:39Speaker 02

  Well, I've had the privilege of shaving my teacher's head many times.

• 1:30:44Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 1:30:45Speaker 02

  And.

• 1:30:46Speaker 01

  You are a Zen.

• 1:30:48Speaker 02

  So, so Tai, Tai would, Tai would call me his barber. And, and, and.

• 1:30:53Speaker 01

  So this is something I've not heard before.

• 1:30:55Speaker 02

  I, I, I even have a video of it. One time we recorded, um, Tai toed, one of the sisters, uh, attending sisters with me. We're in, um, Singapore, um, to record this conversation I had with Tai when I'm shaving his head.

• 1:31:11Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:31:12Speaker 02

  And I think a Zen, um, barber is somebody who is a community bridge. Like they can, they can offer the care and the tenderness of a mother, of a father, of an elder brother. Showing affection, showing care to, um, the head, the hair that is being attended to. My, I think when I was a kid, like, one of the greatest feeling was having a fresh haircut. And leaving the barber, um, like showing off to your friend your newest hair. It's almost, it's, it's, it's your identity in a way.

• 1:31:51Speaker 02

  So a caretaker, like a barber, is, is a, is a lover, someone who is loving, um, their career as well as offering this tenderness to someone. And when I was shaving Tai's head, like, we would just enter into conversations. And it's, it, it becomes very, um, informal. So the informal moments can bring out, yeah, the very human side of a teacher and a student. And, uh, at the end of it, we always look, um, I, I would always save all the hair. And, and Tai was like, he wants to see how much hair his head still produced because he was in his, you know, in his late eighties back then. And.

• 1:32:37Speaker 02

  And his hair was quite black, you know, for someone of his age. So I always make a joke, I'm like, Kai, you're still young, your hair is very black.

• 1:32:46Speaker 02

  And we always just have a laugh out of it. But it's also like these, these very simple moment to create something very sacred out of it. And the sacredness, it, it doesn't mean just stillness and like all like bowing our heads to something. But that moment when I get to shave my teacher's head is very sacred. Because once again, like it's very rare that we touch somebody's head. But this is a moment I have permission to touch my teacher's head and to, to shave his head. So it's a very sacred moment.

• 1:33:20Speaker 01

  Wow, beautiful. I'm glad I asked. I wasn't expecting that. So brother, um, we have traditionally ended, um, episodes with a short guided meditation. And the last two or three, we haven't, which is wonderful because now we can come back to it, uh, feeling freshness. So, um, if you have the capacity, it'd be lovely to just finish today with a short meditation that brings us back to simplicity, humility and to Zen.

• 1:33:54Speaker 02

  So dear friends, wherever you find yourself, sitting on a chair, on a train, on the bus, on an airplane, or in your living room, or if you're going for a jog, going for a run, um, going for a walk, or even cleaning your house, if you just allow yourself this very short, brief moment to touch stillness, you can find a comfortable position to sit still, or even to lay down, or just to stand still and start to feel the earth underneath our feet, underneath our buttocks,

• 1:34:37Speaker 02

  feeling our body connected to the earth, just to establish our posture.

• 1:34:44Speaker 02

  And let us become aware of our in-breath and out-breath.

• 1:34:51Speaker 02

  As we breathe in, we know this is an in-breath.

• 1:34:56Speaker 02

  As we breathe out, we know this is an out-breath.

• 1:35:01Speaker 02

  In-breath, out-breath.

• 1:35:27Speaker 02

  Breathing in, I follow my breath from the beginning to the end. Breathing out, I follow my breath from the beginning to the end.

• 1:35:42Speaker 02

  Fully dwelling in the present moment of the breath.

• 1:35:48Speaker 02

  Fully present with the out-breath.

• 1:35:53Speaker 02

  If it is long, let it be long. If it is short, let it be short. We don't have to force our breath. The breathing is happening already.

• 1:36:19Speaker 02

  Breathing in, I become aware of my whole body.

• 1:36:25Speaker 02

  Breathing out, I smile to my body.

• 1:36:30Speaker 02

  Aware of body, smile to body.

• 1:36:39Speaker 02

  Thank you, body, for being, for allowing me to walk, to eat, to move, to be engaged, to offer my presence.

• 1:37:08Speaker 02

  Breathing in, aware of body. Breathing out, I relax my body.

• 1:37:18Speaker 02

  Offering care, offering stillness.

• 1:37:24Speaker 02

  I don't have to keep running.

• 1:37:28Speaker 02

  This moment is a moment I can be proud of.

• 1:37:35Speaker 02

  I am here for my body. I am here for myself.

• 1:37:56Speaker 02

  Breathing in, in touch with the wonders of life around me.

• 1:38:04Speaker 02

  Breathing out, I am grateful to all the conditions that supports me to be alive, to understand, to love.

• 1:38:20Speaker 02

  Aware of the wonders,

• 1:38:23Speaker 02

  I am grateful to all the wonders.

• 1:38:40Speaker 02

  Breathing in,

• 1:38:43Speaker 02

  I enjoy the simplicity of breathing in.

• 1:38:48Speaker 02

  Breathing out,

• 1:38:51Speaker 02

  I enjoy the simplicity of breathing out.

• 1:38:58Speaker 02

  In, out.

• 1:39:11Speaker 02

  Thank you, dear friends, for practicing.

• 1:39:15Speaker 01

  Brother Fappu, thank you. I was just deep in quietness there, in stillness. So beautiful, thank you. So, dear listeners, now I've woken up again. Dear listeners, we hope you have enjoyed this episode. If you did, you can find many more in this series. So you can find it on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, on other platforms, as well as our own Plum Village app and also the Plum Village website.

• 1:39:44Speaker 02

  And you can also find all previous guided meditation of different episodes in the On the Go section of the Plum Village app. And this podcast is co-produced with Global Optimism and the Plum Village app, with the support from the Tikkun Han Foundation. And dear friends, please continue to support and donate to the reconstruction of the nursery in Lower Hamlet that burnt down three weeks ago. We are very grateful for all your generous donation as we continue to build our spiritual refuge for the world. And we want to thank all of our friends and collaborators, Clay, aka The Podfather, our co-producer, Kata, our producer,

• 1:40:29Speaker 02

  our other friend Joe, our audio editing, Anka, our show notes and publishing, Jasmine and Cindy, our social media guardian angels, and today, Georgine, on the sound engineering. Thank you, and we'll see you next time.

• 1:40:46Speaker 03

  The way out is in.