Book Club Meets: I could have been radicalised! ISIS brides and teen angst, with Nussaibah Younis

Fundamentally tells the story of Nadia, an academic who's been disowned by her puritanical mother and dumped by her lover, so she decides to get away by accepting a UN job in Iraq. Meanwhile, Sara is a precocious and sweary East Londoner who joined ISIS at just fifteen, and Nadia is astounded at how similar they both are: they’re feisty and opinionated, they’re from a Muslim background, and they both love a Dairy Milk and rude pick-up lines... In this Book Club chat with Fearne, author Nussaibah Younis explains how she managed to write an incredibly funny book based on her own experience of creating a de-radicalisation programme... Satire and comedy, she says, is vital in examining tough topics. They also natter about how you’d react if you had to hang out with your teenage self, and why doing the job you love can sometimes mean giving up a little bit of yourself. Thank you to Weidenfeld & Nicolson for the use of the Fundamentally audiobook, narrated by Sarah Slimani. If you liked this episode of Happy Place, you might also like: Book Club Meets: Elizabeth Day https://pod.fo/e/360665 Book Club Meets: Elizabeth Gilbert https://pod.fo/e/351b04 Book Club Meets: Aisha Muharrar https://pod.fo/e/33608a Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To market, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:28Speaker 01

  My sweat turned cold as a group of women walked in wearing long abayas and headscarves.

• 0:34Fearne Cotton?

  Welcome to the Happy Place Book Club with me, Fern Cotton.

• 0:38Speaker 01

  I was terrified.

• 0:40Fearne Cotton?

  Today, Fundamentally, by Nussaibah Younis.

• 0:44Speaker 01

  What bait spy and shit is this? Said a girl from East London. The familiarity of her accent drained the tension from my body. There's nothing scary about a Hijabi rude girl from Mylend. Nostalgia summoned an image of Whitechapel Market, Rosie and me weaving through, eating our Brick Lane samosas after a Saturday at Spitalfields. I used to think it was the biggest dump on earth, but that was before I came to Iraq. The girl leaned on her forearms, her severe facial expression incongruous with her diamante-trimmed headscarf. I too had loved diamante headscarves, back when I was religious, bringing a hint of the 90s wag to my glamorless Islamic life.

• 1:27Speaker 01

  Um, not spies, I promise, I said. Not the most professional way to open a focus group. I took a breath and started again. Hello, everyone, thanks for joining us. We're from the UN and we'd like to share some ideas and proposals with you today. But first, we'd love to hear from you about your immediate needs and concerns. Everything you say is confidential and we encourage you to be open and honest. I tried to shift my gaze around the room, but East London girl had me transfixed. Oh, she rubbed her hands together. Obviously, I should trust you. The UN is definitely not a colonial conspiracy that gives fake legal cover to Western war crimes.

• 2:14Speaker 01

  I covered my mouth to hide a smile. I'd used those exact words as a teenager. God, my teachers must have thought I was such a prick.

• 2:24Fearne Cotton?

  Fundamentally was our Happy Place Book Club read for December. Happy New Year, by the way. Oh, my God, it's 2026. What is going on? Let's talk about Fundamentally. It tells the story of Nadia. She's an academic who's been disowned by her puritanical mother and dumped by her lover. So she decides to get away by accepting a UN job in Iraq. Our other protagonist is Sarah. She's a precocious and sweary East Londoner who joined ISIS at just 15. And Nadia is astounded at how similar they both are. They're feisty and opinionated, they're from a Muslim background, and they both love a dairy milk and rude pick-up lines.

• 3:06Fearne Cotton?

  This book is so, so funny. I know you might not have expected that from that description I just gave, but it really is. We've been reading along together and chatting about it on Instagram at Happy Place Book Club. Loads of you adore this book. Come over and chat about it with me if you're a fellow book nerd. Now, Fundamentally draws on Nussaibah's personal experience as an NGO worker in Iraq and an expert who was tasked with creating a deradicalisation programme for ISIS brides. So it was very fun getting to chat to Nussaibah about this book. It's her debut, by the way, as well. We covered everything from how you'd react to having to hang out with your teenage self

• 3:48Fearne Cotton?

  to the joy of crying with laughter at a book on public transport.

• 3:55Speaker 03

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets and our shared Google Doc, the Headline Hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalised AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.glo. Slash workspace with Gemini. That's G O O dot G L E slash workspace with Gemini.

• 4:28Speaker 04

  At Humana, our Medicare Advantage plans are easy to understand and easy on your wallet. Like offering more benefits than you'd get from original Medicare alone and including dental, vision and hearing coverage in every plan. And the best part is every plan has a $0 or low monthly plan premium, which makes it easier to save too. So this Medicare planning season, plan well with Humana. Learn more at gethumana.com. Humana is a Medicare Advantage HMO and PPO organisation with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 4:59Speaker 05

  Hello, I'm Joanna Fletcher.

• 5:01Speaker 06

  And I'm Marco Burchella.

• 5:02Speaker 05

  And this is Boots Off.

• 5:06Speaker 06

  We are friends who have spent a decade together, walking up mountains, across deserts and along coastlines with some seriously awesome groups of humans.

• 5:14Speaker 05

  And something happens when you're out there, feet on the ground, surrounded by nature, the conversations just spill out of you.

• 5:20Speaker 06

  This series is about the adversities that lead to adventure.

• 5:23Speaker 05

  The adventures that lead to adversity.

• 5:25Speaker 06

  And how life can be one big adventure in itself.

• 5:28Speaker 05

  Listen every Thursday, just search for Boots Off.

• 5:36Speaker 05

  Right, let's do it. Here's the show.

• 5:59Speaker 05

  Hey, Nussaibah.

• 6:00Speaker 07

  Hey, Vern. I just finished reading your book, Vern, scripted.

• 6:04Speaker 05

  Oh, God.

• 6:05Speaker 07

  I absolutely loved it.

• 6:07Speaker 05

  Oh, it's so terrifying.

• 6:08Speaker 07

  It really made me laugh. Honestly, there's the scene at the rehearsal dinner where I can't remember if it's Lily or Jade, maybe Lily says, is that salad featuring cheese? And then Jade's like, featuring, it's not a record.

• 6:26Speaker 05

  That's ridiculous.

• 6:26Fearne Cotton?

  I am first of all, that's so kind of you to read the book. It's always the most nerve wracking thing to have not only an author, but a bloody good author, read your book. And I don't know about you, but I, I'm, I'm very excited when I'm writing a book. But as soon as I'm writing another one, I'm like, oh, I'm not happy with that. I, I've got, I can do better. And I'm constantly like, almost putting down my old books because I'm wanting to climb the ladder of writing better each time.

• 6:57Speaker 07

  Oh my God, I feel the exact same way. So I'm writing my second book at the moment and I'm really trying to like up my game. And so I've become so critical of my own writing and I miss those days. Did you feel like when you were writing your first one, this kind of unbridled freedom and optimism?

• 7:18Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 7:19Speaker 07

  Where you were like, I'm writing a book. How amazing is this?

• 7:23Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, yeah.

• 7:23Speaker 07

  And now, yeah, wow. Now I know too much.

• 7:27Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 7:28Speaker 07

  I wish I could go back to those days.

• 7:31Fearne Cotton?

  Well, it's, it's a real feat to write a book in the first place. But yeah, a second one is certainly a tricky thing to navigate. But I, I need to talk about your first book because first of all, we have just adored reading it throughout the month of December. It was, I mean, I raced through this book, lolling my head off throughout. The pick for December is of course, your debut fiction, Fundamentally, which is just the most sensational book. And what I would love to do is do actually first of all, a bit of backstory as to how this came about because Happy Place Book Club had an event in November. Yeah. And I was interviewing Elizabeth Day and we had this lovely chat.

• 8:13Fearne Cotton?

  And then at the end, we asked for audience questions and you put your hand up and Elizabeth and I were so mortified because you asked us for advice and we gave you advice. And then when you came to meet us at the end and gave us your book, which we had both seen everywhere, we were like, oh my God, we've just given you advice. How outrageous is that? We were so embarrassed.

• 8:31Speaker 07

  You gave really good advice actually, because I was asking you both. About how, you know, it's funny when you go from writing a book on your own to suddenly having a whole team. You know, I now I suddenly for book two, I have an agent and I have an editor and I have a publicist. And, you know, when you're writing the first time, you're really on your own. And now it's a question of like, when do I trust my own intuition and my own goals and my gut with what I'm trying to write? And when do I like, listen to feedback? And both of you had really good advice, which was mostly about

• 9:11Speaker 07

  like taking everything in that people are offering, but also trusting yourself that what led you to write your first book and your first book to being a success will lead you to that again.

• 9:23Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, without a doubt.

• 9:24Speaker 07

  Yeah, not to like doubt yourself, which, so you guys gave me great advice.

• 9:28Fearne Cotton?

  Well, we felt like we overstepped the mark with it slightly, but, but we.

• 9:32Speaker 07

  I asked.

• 9:33Fearne Cotton?

  Exactly. But we were so thrilled to receive a copy of your book. And I literally got home that night and I normally go to bed super early, but I was like, I need to start this book. I'd heard so much hype around it. And I couldn't put it down from the minute I started it and I've just flown through it. And it's such an amazing book for so many reasons. Not only is it, is there some very vital storytelling within it about some subject matters that are vastly interesting, but also you've managed to navigate these quite heavy subjects at times with immense humour. I mean, I rarely laugh out loud at a book, but I was laughing my head off throughout.

• 10:13Fearne Cotton?

  Did you know from landing on the themes and the story and the plot that you'd worked out? When did you land on the tone? Because it could have been just a straight up serious book.

• 10:24Speaker 07

  Yeah. Well, why didn't I lay out a bit about what the story is? And then I'll talk about how I decided to write it in this bonkers way. So the novel follows a heartbroken academic called Nadia from London. And Nadia's just been brutally dumped by her girlfriend. And you know, when you're in that situation. Situation where you're going through an awful breakup. And what you should do is A, stay single and B, maybe get some therapy. And what you don't want to do is any of those things. Nadia decides instead of facing her demons, to accept a job with the UN in Baghdad.

• 11:05Speaker 07

  And I mean, I can tell you from experience that like, if you take a job in Baghdad, you will get over your breakup. You will be distracted.

• 11:14Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 11:15Speaker 07

  Trying to stay alive is a great way to get over your ex. And so she goes to Baghdad and when she's there, she is asked to design a programme to de-radicalise ISIS brides. And this is crazy, like Nadia does not know how to do this. And so she's sort of turning to her UN colleagues for help and advice. But they are just such a ridiculous cast of characters and they were so fun to write.

• 11:44Fearne Cotton?

  I bet they were.

• 11:45Speaker 07

  You kind of have nepo babies and party boys and like do-gooding warriors. But not one of them is actually good at their job. So Nadia doesn't have any real support amongst her UN colleagues. And she's about to give up and just go back to London declaring defeat when she visits the refugee camp. And there she meets Sarah and Sarah is a young ISIS bride. She joined ISIS when she was 15 years old. And she's so vulnerable, but also funny and precocious. And Nadia becomes captivated by her and just becomes committed to saving Sarah.

• 12:29Speaker 07

  Kind of regardless as to whether or not Sarah wants to be saved. Now, I wanted to write a funny book. You know, I love reading funny books.

• 12:40Fearne Cotton?

  Me too.

• 12:42Speaker 07

  And it's so rare. And your book is really funny, Scripted is so funny and it's so rare to have a book that makes you laugh out loud. I remember once going on holiday and having a Nick Hornby book on the plane. It's the one called, I love all of his books, but there's one called A Long Way Down. Which is literally a comedy about a bunch of people who keep trying to commit suicide.

• 13:05Fearne Cotton?

  It's just. The most phenomenal book.

• 13:07Speaker 07

  You would think that that book would be so bleak. I was crying and shaking with laughter on the plane to the point where people were turning around. I was like, I actually can't read this book in public. And I just knew at that point, my goal in life was to just embarrass people on public transport.

• 13:29Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 13:29Speaker 07

  The point where they were like, I can't read this book in public because I am making a fool out of myself. And I can't tell you how many people have DM'd me saying, people were literally moving away from me on the tube. Because I was snort laughing.

• 13:46Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 13:47Speaker 07

  If Nick Hornby can write a funny book about suicide, I can write a funny book about ISIS brides. If that's what you want to do and you're setting out to be funny, then I think you can really pull it off. It's just, most people aren't trying.

• 14:01Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, and I think what's brilliant about both of those examples, your book and Nick Hornby, is that it highlights that humour is so important when it comes to actually diffusing really tricky situations in life. It's like the biggest catharsis to be able to have a laugh or at least look at the situation through the lens of humour rather than just spiralling into absolute despair. And Nadia manages that, or at least has like the one liners that can, you know, infuse that into a situation. And equally with Sarah, I mean, their dynamic is so brilliant and they, they clearly saw a bit of each other

• 14:41Fearne Cotton?

  in each other. And that dynamic was just such a wonderful friendship, literally from day dot. What did you feel was important to explore within that friendship?

• 14:52Speaker 07

  Yeah, so Nadia and Sarah are almost like sisters or like different versions of each other. So when I was thinking about them, I think of Sarah as like a teenage version of myself and Nadia as more like the adult version. And I thought, what is funnier than having to hang out with yourself as a teenager? Like, that person would be so annoying.

• 15:21Speaker 07

  Imagine trying to tell the teenage version of yourself that they're making the wrong choices and that they need to be smarter, or they need to grow up, or that they're being too idealistic, or that they're being naive. Imagine the way they would just chat back to

• 15:37Fearne Cotton?

  Oh my god, so much annoying chat back. I can picture myself doing it.

• 15:42Speaker 07

  Exactly. And so the funniest scenes that I wrote are just that, like, chat back from Sarah to Nadia, and Nadia's just trying to help, but has that, like, quite patronizing older sister slash UN worker vibe and tone about her. And Sarah can really annihilate her.

• 16:04Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 16:05Speaker 07

  She knows where all of her weak spots are, because, and I think a lot of people really identified with these characters, even if they weren't child Islamists. Because you, I think so many of us are idealists as teenagers. We like have a really black and white view of the world and what's right and wrong, and how we think we're going to be different and better than our parents and better than the adults around us. And then we grow up to be exactly like everybody else.

• 16:36Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 16:38Speaker 07

  And that kind of, that teenage disappointment in seeing yourself, you know, compromise and having to work at a big institution like the United Nations, that, you know, you don't get, you don't get to have a job like that and you don't get to run programs in an institution like that without giving up a little piece of yourself, you know? And you see that with Nadia as she's trying to make this program work. And anyone who's ever worked at a big organisation totally identifies with this part of the book. You know, you're trying to get permission and sign off and people to agree to what you're doing and you're trying to get support.

• 17:21Speaker 07

  And at every stage, you're sort of compromising a little bit and giving up a little bit. And, you know, I think it's also a real source of comedy, that big kind of those institutional nonsenses that we all have to put up with. It reminded me when I was writing it of, you know, The Thick of It.

• 17:42Fearne Cotton?

  Yes.

• 17:43Speaker 07

  Or Yes, Menster, or even that show W1A about the BBC. So many like big organisations have the same kind of infuriating procedures and they almost seem set up to make you fail at whatever you're trying to achieve.

• 17:59Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, just dead end after dead end.

• 18:01Speaker 07

  And seeing that in the world of international aid is is quite sobering because the work is so important and it has a real impact on people's lives and the stakes are so high. But when it comes down to it, you're still just a person who's working in an organisation with colleagues and having those same institutional battles and ego battles that people do at every place of work. And I think people have been surprised when they have never worked abroad and certainly not worked in peace building or in the Middle East, how much they've like identified with how ordinary these struggles are.

• 18:40Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 18:41Speaker 07

  Because the human experience is so similar across the board.

• 18:44Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, my God. I mean, absolutely. But, you know, Nadia's got this other layer where she's also culturally up against it because the rules are just different. And that, there's bits of the book that are so frustrating and you're sort of with Nadia going, like, what are we going to do about this? You know, which also, Lee, I don't want to give too much away in case people haven't read the book as yet, but for anyone that's read along with us, there is at some point in the book a bit of an escape scene that had me on the edge of my seat. I was literally like, I couldn't read it quick enough and. It felt very important to have that part in the book where actually there was this immense, very fast paced movement after Nadia had been, you know, literally bashing her head against

• 19:29Fearne Cotton?

  the wall for weeks on end.

• 19:31Speaker 07

  Yeah, I do think it was fun to have Nadia break free from institutional constraints. People often ask me how similar Nadia is to myself and honestly, I wish I had the balls. I wish.

• 19:51Fearne Cotton?

  Terrifying.

• 19:53Speaker 07

  I wish I had the guts because I think a lot of us reach that moment where we're at the end of our tether, we're trying to do the right thing and no one's letting us do the right thing. And in those moments, we turn to fiction where people could just throw caution to the wind and take the bold, insane move that we wish that we could. But yeah, I mean, honestly, if I behaved like Nadia, I would be in prison.

• 20:21Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, it's without a doubt. The risks taken were like, oh my God, I was getting stressed before bed. I was like, ah. I mean, obviously, some of this, this plot and or the themes certainly are autobiographical. Where's the line? What did you experience? What did you not experience?

• 20:42Speaker 07

  Right. All the parts that make Nadia look like a terrible human being are not me.

• 20:48Fearne Cotton?

  Important to put that out there quite quickly.

• 20:50Speaker 07

  And all the things about her that are like funny and sexy and great, that's like exactly autobiographical. That's a good rule of thumb.

• 20:58Fearne Cotton?

  Okay.

• 20:59Speaker 07

  Honestly, people, when I've been on this huge book tour and like, I've had readers come up to me or sort of ask questions in, in, at the events and they say, you know, it's interesting because Nadia is such an unlikable character and she's so frustrating and I just wanted to shake her. And I'm like, all right, that's me you're talking to. Like, is this why I don't have more friends?

• 21:29Speaker 07

  I think she's great.

• 21:31Fearne Cotton?

  Me too.

• 21:33Speaker 07

  Me too. But that seems to not be the universal conclusion.

• 21:37Fearne Cotton?

  No, because she's got a wonderful rebellious streak naturally. And, and what I love about her is any of that rebellion comes from a place of good heartedness. Like she wants to, she's doing all of it because she genuinely cares, not because she thinks she should. She's got this connection with Sarah and that becomes the most important thing to her. So I think for all of her faux pas, like we all have, or, you know, mishaps along the way, I was rooting for her from day one.

• 22:06Speaker 07

  Well, thank you, Fern. I appreciate that. Because I actually think one of the things I enjoyed doing is because I'm really like not a nihilistic person at all, even though there is real cynicism, because it's a satire and, you know, it's helping you to understand the flaws of how the international aid system works. But I tried to give almost all of my characters a really big heart. And at some point, I think each of them are really trying to do the right thing. And that does feel to me true to life, that, that yes, people can get waylaid in all kinds of directions.

• 22:45Speaker 07

  But often there is like a very human and positive motivation, or they're acting from a place of pain. And, you know, it's a tricky one because obviously I'm writing about these young teenagers who were radicalised and were persuaded to join ISIS. And it's such a personal topic for me because I grew up very religious, but I also grew up very politicised. You know, I was growing up at the time when we were invading Iraq and we were invading Afghanistan. And it's funny now to think back to that because, you know, we did kill hundreds of thousands of people across the world for no real reason.

• 23:29Speaker 07

  Like, we don't even talk about it anymore. What was the, what did we get out of invading Iraq? What did we get out of invading Afghanistan? And to me, it felt very personal because. I was a devout Muslims and I was watching Muslims being killed every single day. And the people around me at school didn't care at all. It's a bit like today, if you were a teenager today, who's watching on Instagram or on TikTok, watching videos of the genocide in Gaza. It's so upsetting and so hurtful when you care about seeing these young kids being murdered. And you don't know what to do with all of that pain and all of that upset.

• 24:12Speaker 07

  And when you're very young, it's so easy for you to be taken advantage of. And not because you're a horrible person, but because you're a person who's deeply moved. And I've always been someone who's been so moved by suffering that I can imagine had the wrong people got to me at that age, I could have been persuaded to do something insane, like travel halfway across the world. But I could have been persuaded that that was the right thing to do to help people. And in the end, I grew up and I did travel across the world to try and help people. I just did it as an aid worker, you know, not as, not as somebody joining a terrorist organisation,

• 24:54Speaker 07

  because I have the chance to go to university and to learn more about the world and to figure out what the right way to do this is. But when you're 15 and you're just really upset and you're seeing horrible videos online, you're so vulnerable and I've always wanted to tell that story of how easy it is to fall into something like that and then how impossible it is to get back out.

• 25:17Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. Oh my God. Well, you got such a sense of that with Sarah's journey. I mean, more than I could have even imagined.

• 25:29Speaker 06

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• 25:44Speaker 03

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of the best one yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's goo.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 26:17Speaker 04

  At Humana, our Medicare Advantage plans are easy to understand and easy on your wallet, like offering more benefits than you'd get from original Medicare alone, and including dental, vision, and hearing coverage in every plan. And the best part is, every plan has a $0 or low monthly plan premium, which makes it easier to save, too. So this Medicare planning season, plan well with Humana. Learn more at gethumana.com. Humana is a Medicare Advantage, HMO, and PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 26:47Fearne Cotton?

  Hello, this is Suzy Ruffel. And Maisie Adams. And together we host Big Kick Energy. Hey, Mais, what is it? Only the best podcast ever. Yeah. A comedy entertainment podcast with a focus on all things women's football, all things hilarious, all things friendship. It's a laugh is what it is, Ruffel. Yeah, and a fair bit of gossiping, too. Oh, and a lovely bit of gossip. Chow down on the gossip. Nom, nom, nom, nom, nom. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. Just need to search Big Kick Energy. Grab a knife and fork and tuck in, baby.

• 27:20Fearne Cotton?

  When did this idea for fiction start to form? Was it when you were out, you know, working for the UN? Was it after with a moment of reflection? At what point did you think, I've got to tell this story and it's not autobiographical, and actually I can do this with humor to appeal to lots of people that might not necessarily be interested in a book like that initially? Because I think it is, you've landed in this amazing. ...space where you've created an incredibly mainstream book about a subject that isn't talked about in this way at all.

• 27:52Speaker 07

  Yeah, well, I wrote, because I used to be an academic and I wrote, I wrote an academic paper and seven people read it.

• 28:01Fearne Cotton?

  Heartbreaking.

• 28:03Speaker 07

  And I was like, oh, and by the way, I knew every single one of them because they're just my colleagues.

• 28:08Fearne Cotton?

  Brilliant.

• 28:10Speaker 07

  And like, I knew I was good at writing. It's just when you're writing for an academic audience that you have to write in a way that's like deliberately really complicated. And I was like, do you know what? Everybody in this country has an opinion about ISIS brides, but they don't really know anything about it. Because, you know, you read a headline here and there and maybe you catch 10 minutes of a talk show, but it's something lots of people are interested in and have very strong opinions about, but don't really understand the emotional truth of the experience at all. And so I wanted to write something that

• 28:49Speaker 07

  was really easy to read and really fun. Like, I just want to write something that you want to read, that you, that you stay up too late reading, that you're laughing at on public transport. And that by the end of it, actually without realising, you've thought really deeply about this topic and you understand it in a way that you didn't before.

• 29:12Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, so clever that you've married the two of those things because that is not easy to do. Like, having a book that makes you deeply think but laugh out loud, I think, is incredibly rare.

• 29:22Speaker 07

  And, you know, I worked really hard to make it happen by, I literally took a stand-up comedy course. I like tried out all my jokes on my like stand-up class. Yeah, and I can tell you, it was like very humiliating.

• 29:41Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I can't think of anything worse. Whenever I've interviewed comedians, I'm like, I don't know how you do, how, how do you do it?

• 29:46Speaker 07

  I don't know how anyone has the stomach for it, honestly. It's been quite a good preparation for book tour, which has in various times been very humiliating as an experience.

• 29:57Fearne Cotton?

  I've been there. I get it.

• 29:59Speaker 07

  You're like, okay, this audience not be laughing at my jokes today, but that's fine. I've definitely, definitely experienced this before. Honestly, it's, no one talks about the privilege of being at a book event. And not having to be funny because people are there to to listen to what could be quite a serious conversation about a book. But if you are funny, that's just a bonus. Now, that's the kind of level of stand up I'm comfortable with. But I was so, I was so keen to make sure that the book was like properly laugh out loud and not just a wry smile.

• 30:40Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, no, it's laugh out loud. You nailed it.

• 30:42Speaker 07

  That I did actually, before I sat down to actually write the book, I had like pages and pages of jokes and like funny characters and funny observations. Like I started with the humour.

• 30:54Fearne Cotton?

  That's so interesting.

• 30:56Speaker 07

  From, I took it from there because I knew that the serious stuff and the emotional stuff with this topic, that was going to come easily.

• 31:03Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 31:04Speaker 07

  But I didn't want to lose sight of this being really enjoyable because I do feel like, okay, this is going to be a bit of a controversial take. Um, I feel like part of the reason people are not reading so much anymore is because so many books are so boring. Is that bad to say? I feel like the literary establishment rewards very dense and very poetic language and to the, at the expense often of plot, of good storytelling, of wit, of humour. And that's not always the case. There's some amazing funny storytellers like

• 31:46Speaker 07

  Percival Everett and Paul Beatty, absolutely hilarious.

• 31:51Fearne Cotton?

  No, I hear you because I, if I'm not, if I'm not totally invested within, I'm gonna say, actually, I was gonna say the first two pages, but actually it's the first page. I, I cannot continue. I need to be all in with the protagonist. I need to be either deeply intrigued initially or entertained. Otherwise I'm out. I don't want to read on.

• 32:15Speaker 07

  Yeah. And I also think there's so much snobbery. Like, what is wrong with somebody actually? Really enjoying a book. Why, reading shouldn't be hard. I don't think reading should be hard. That's something you're doing in your free time. You could be on watching Netflix, you could be watching TikTok videos. But if you're sitting down to read a book, that should be a really enjoyable experience. And I just, I'm not a snob. I'm someone who, you know, I'll watch documentaries and I'll also watch reality TV. And I read all kinds of different fiction, but I really value novelists

• 32:55Speaker 07

  who aren't trying to prove in every sentence how clever they are, but are actually trying to entertain a reader. And I wanted to do that. Look, at the end of the day, I have a PhD. I don't need to sit there in a book and be like, I'm clever, I'm clever. I mean, that's ridiculous. I want to actually make people have a good time.

• 33:16Fearne Cotton?

  But, but you've done it anyway by, by managing to cover this subject with humour. Like, that's the, that's just the highest form of intelligence, or be able to emotionally read the room. And, and I think also knowing when humour can be applied in parts of a book, but also when it's really important that it's just bleak. And there are stark moments where you feel something. I think that's, that's so intelligent. You know, I, I agree. I don't want to sit there going, wait, what does this mean? Or equally, I don't want to go, God, this is slow. Like, could something just happen? I don't, I'm not a patient person. I need stuff to be happening from the get-go. So, yeah, I, I'm with you on that one.

• 33:57Speaker 07

  I don't think it's interesting or useful to describe the shape of a cloud for 10 pages.

• 34:03Fearne Cotton?

  No, it's a cloud. It's a cloud.

• 34:05Speaker 07

  It's a cloud. Let's get back to the human action.

• 34:08Fearne Cotton?

  Exactly. So I'm very intrigued that you started with a, a notepad of, of characters and jokes and, and bits and bobs like that. I, I wouldn't say I'm necessarily as thorough. I'm writing another fiction at the moment and I've got all sorts of ideas, but, but some of them come out of the blue. Like, yesterday I was having a, a hot chocolate with my dear friend Reggie Yates. And we were in a cafe and someone very nearby us, an adult, ate a sandwich and left the crust. Which I was obsessed by. I was like, what, what adult leaves the crusts? I don't underst- like, this is what my kids do. This is fascinating.

• 34:42Speaker 07

  I actually still do that with pizza. Yeah.

• 34:44Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, pizza may be slightly different. But sandwiches, I was like, so I was like, I've got to remember that for, for a character. Cause that's just such a weird little quirk that I've never picked up on before. What, what was your experience like whilst writing the book? Were you kind of hypervigilant to everyone and everything going on around you?

• 35:02Speaker 07

  Well, do you know what was so great is that I decided I was going to write the book a year before I actually did. So I was still working in Baghdad and I was actually doing this job. I was, I was asked to design a de-radicalisation programme. And so I knew I was going to write about it. And so I spent the whole time, whenever something funny or interesting or weird happened, I was writing everything down. And so when that job came to an end and I had the time to write, I had so much material that I'd collected, but from, you know, from actually my time in Baghdad. And so, yeah, it was incredible.

• 35:44Speaker 07

  And now I'm writing a second book where I'm actually having to do research. I'm like, having to read books and write about something that isn't something I've exactly done. It's, um, it's quite a different, it's quite a different process. I'm finding it a lot more time consuming.

• 36:02Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, well, I'm, I'm sure when there's research involved, without a doubt. I mean, this is what you alluded to at the Happy Place Book Club event, that you are veering off on a tangent that perhaps the people that you're working with in the publishing world aren't expecting. And that's what you wanna, you wanna go with. That's, I guess, got to come from an intuitive place where you feel that excitement in your gut, which motivates you to write the book. This next idea, was that something that landed immediately? Something that's been percolating for some time?

• 36:34Speaker 07

  So the new book is about a husband and wife who are fighting for control of an international peace process. And it's also a dark comedy. And what I was really interested in exploring the dynamics of a relationship overlaid over the dynamics of an international conflict. And I have worked on a peace process before, and it was so fascinating watching how individual egos and behaviours were having an impact on like massive geopolitical conflict. And we see this now every day because we have President Trump in office in the US.

• 37:15Speaker 07

  We see the capriciousness of an individual and how impactful that can be on global markets, on global conflicts. And that's something I witnessed a few years ago when I worked on a peace process. And I was like, oh my God, is this how these things happen? And I was so interested to explore it in fiction. And yeah, my team, you know, I think at the beginning I had not a very clear way of talking about it. So I think they were a bit confused about what I was trying to do. But I think they've left me to it, which is awesome. And I'm just really hoping. So I'm actually about to send my editor the first 20,000 words.

• 37:57Speaker 07

  And I've got all my fingers and toes crossed that she likes it. But I actually have no idea.

• 38:01Fearne Cotton?

  How exciting.

• 38:02Speaker 07

  What she's gonna think.

• 38:03Fearne Cotton?

  I'm thrilled for you. I mean, for anybody out there who is either thinking about writing a book, has started to write a book for their own pleasure and enjoyment, obviously with the hope that they're able to do something with it. Have you got any advice for someone in that position?

• 38:19Speaker 07

  So I think it's really important to get yourself a writing group. It's so useful to have friends who are also writing and who you can share your work with for feedback. So, you know, I did a writing course when I left my job and I met a group of writers who were all in the same position as me. All of us were writing our first books. All of us were really committed to it. And their feedback on my work was really helpful. And also, the more you have other people reading your work really early, the less precious you become. And you're willing to listen with an open mind to to feedback. And so I think, and and the other thing is, it just, it can be so lonely

• 39:04Speaker 07

  to, you know, it can take so long to write a book and you're writing on your own. And if you have friends who were doing it at the same time as you, they love to talk about it and they love to listen to you complain.

• 39:15Fearne Cotton?

  Mmm, yes.

• 39:17Speaker 07

  And your non-writer friends are like, mate.

• 39:20Fearne Cotton?

  Yawn.

• 39:21Speaker 07

  I don't care. I just don't care.

• 39:23Fearne Cotton?

  Don't care.

• 39:24Speaker 07

  How long you spent trying to find that adjective today.

• 39:27Fearne Cotton?

  Not bothered.

• 39:28Speaker 07

  This is not interesting to me.

• 39:29Fearne Cotton?

  I think you're so right on the feedback note because it is, I found with my first book, you know, whenever that was, eight, nine years ago, I was taking everything so personally, like, oh god, why have they said that and why are they challenging me? And now I'm like, tell me, I want you to tell me exactly what you think of all of it. So I can shape this to be the best version of this book that it could possibly be. And I think you do naturally build up an immunity to it just through the experience, people saying, have you thought about that? Have you tried this? This isn't working. It's so key because we can get so bogged down with our own idea of like, but this is how it's got to be. I've imagined it, but actually that's not always the best way to go about things.

• 40:12Speaker 07

  Yeah. And it's also, it's really nice, especially when you're an early writer, to have feedback from people who want you to succeed. And it's like, it's kind and it's helpful and it's, and you're all in it together when you're all trying to achieve the same thing. And that's very different from like being published and having horrible reviews on Goodreads.

• 40:34Fearne Cotton?

  Never read them. Never.

• 40:36Speaker 07

  Those, those people don't want you to succeed, which, you know, is a different experience.

• 40:41Fearne Cotton?

  There's no point reading that stuff.

• 40:43Speaker 07

  It's no, it's nice to have that kind of, because they're championing you as well and they see your potential and they want you to achieve your potential.

• 40:51Fearne Cotton?

  Exactly.

• 40:52Speaker 07

  So get writing friends and it's so easy. There's so many writing groups online, there's so many writing courses you can do and you'll meet your little team.

• 41:01Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 41:01Speaker 07

  And going through it with a team is much better than going through it alone.

• 41:04Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, it's bloody good advice because it is a very lonesome activity. I love that. To finish up, Nasaba, I'd love to ask you, where is your happy place? It can be writing or reading related or not?

• 41:16Speaker 07

  I have a really nice bed.

• 41:21Fearne Cotton?

  Now you're talking my language. This is my, this is my thing.

• 41:25Speaker 07

  Okay, I have two different throws and six cushions.

• 41:32Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 41:33Speaker 07

  And I have a little dimmable lamp that's like, I've actually installed on the wall. And then I just have a big stack of books. And, oh, most importantly, now it's winter, I have an electric blanket.

• 41:46Fearne Cotton?

  This is what I need to invest in. This has been on my wishlist for a while.

• 41:50Speaker 07

  It's gonna change your life.

• 41:51Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I can sense that's the case.

• 41:53Speaker 07

  You might never get, you might never get out of bed again.

• 41:55Fearne Cotton?

  That could be a problem. That could be an issue.

• 41:57Speaker 07

  And especially on a wintery evening, if it's really bright and sunny and cold outside, and you're snuggled in bed with all your cushions and your electric blanket, and you have a really good book that you're really absorbed in, and it's quiet, that is my happy place. And it's coming up because, you know, I live, I live in a flat and there's lots of flats around, so it can be quite noisy. But around Christmas, everyone goes home and leaves me alone in the quiet. And I can have a few days of silence to read before I go off to my own family. So.

• 42:33Fearne Cotton?

  Dreamy.

• 42:33Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 42:34Fearne Cotton?

  I love that.

• 42:35Speaker 07

  That's it for me.

• 42:35Fearne Cotton?

  I love that. Well, look, what a joy it's been to talk to you. And just, your book provided me with so much escapism, laughter, learning, everything in between. I just loved it. So thank you for writing it. And we all wish you the best of luck with your second novel.

• 42:53Speaker 07

  Thank you so much, Fern. This has been such a nice conversation.

• 42:57Fearne Cotton?

  Nasaba, thank you so much for your time. As I said, it's just one of the best books I've written in a very long time. I raced through it and just congrats on all of your amazing success. All right, what are we reading next then? Our first book of 2026 is Hamnet by Maggie O'Farrell. You might have seen the trailer for the film version of this story, which is out this month. It's a reimagining of the life and death of Shakespeare's son, Hamnet, and the grief his parents go through. It's completely beautiful. If you want to get properly involved in the Happy Place Book Club this year, and I really hope you do, then you can find us on Instagram conveniently at Happy Place Book Club. Okay, we're gonna be back in a couple of days with someone who has a connection to my.

• 43:42Fearne Cotton?

  My own novel scripted. You can see if that helps you guess who I'm going to be chatting to. Until then, a massive thanks again to Nussaibah, to the producer, Anushka Tate, at Happy Place Studios, and to you. I love you, little bookworms.

• 44:23Speaker 03

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithgemini. That's goo.gle/workspacewithgemini.

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• 45:27Speaker 04

  It's time. It's the most wonderful time of the year. Halloween.

• 45:35Speaker 05

  And you guys know we don't do Halloween by harms. Full costume, full prosthetics, full commitment. I'm a rat. And I'm the chef. It's our Ratatouille special. Then we're grabbing our broomsticks for the witches.

• 45:48Speaker 05

  We've got a spooky hotline caller. An update from our woman who was in love with the ghost of Prince Albert. And your tarot card dial letters. Listen to our Halloween specials. Search for The Girl's Bathroom.