The Science of Journaling: How 15 Minutes of Writing Can Free Up Your Brain, Improve Your Health, and Make You a Better Friend | Dr. James Pennebaker

Writing can reduce overthinking, rumination, and anxiety. Here's what the researcher who pioneered the science suggests. James Pennebaker is Professor Emeritus of Psychology at the University of Texas at Austin. He is known for his early research on expressive writing and health. More recently, he has pioneered ways to study people's personalities and behaviors through the analysis of their language use. His text analysis program LIWC is used across disciplines. Author of over 300 scientific articles and 8 books, his research has affected our understanding and treatment of mental and physical health of people dealing with upheavals in their lives. This episode first aired in November 2024, and is co-hosted by Dr. Bianca Harris. In this episode we talk about: The specific form of journaling, called expressive writing or therapeutic journaling, that he invented and studied. Other kinds of journaling such as to-do lists and gratitude lists. Why writing things down helps shift our perspective on our stress or trauma. How that can lead to a cascade of benefits, from improved sleep to improved working memory And why Pennebaker, who's a very laid-back dude, is so laid-back about how often we need to journal in order to derive its benefits Get the 10% with Dan Harris app here Sign up for Dan's free newsletter here Follow Dan on social: Instagram, TikTok Subscribe to our YouTube Channel Additional Resources: To advertise on the show, contact [email protected] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/10HappierwithDanHarris

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Dan Harris?

  This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm your host, Dan Harris. I will admit from the outset here that I've long had a bad attitude about journaling, which is weird because I've spent more than 30 years working as a journalist. I dismissed journaling as some sort of new agey thing, though. But then I started to see a bunch of science that really changed my mind on this. This is, by the way, a pattern for me. I reflexively judge something only to have my mind changed by the evidence. In the case of journaling, the evidence is quite abundant. According to research, journaling can be an effective way to reduce stress and anxiety, too biggies for me. And that's not all. Various forms of journaling practice have been shown to increase immune response, sleep quality, memory, focus, time management, and decision making.

• 0:48Dan Harris?

  So today, I'm going to talk to the guy who really pioneered the science around journaling. His name is Dr. James Pennebaker. He's a professor emeritus of psychology at the University of Texas at Austin. He's published over 300 articles and written or edited 12 books, and he was recently elected to the National Academy of Sciences, which is a huge honor. I interviewed Dr. Pennebaker jointly with my wife, Dr. Bianca Harris, who has no skepticism about journaling. We first aired this episode back in November of 2024, but we're re-airing it now because it's really, really good. You're going to hear us talk about the specific form of journaling called expressive writing or therapeutic journaling that Dr. Pennebaker

• 1:31Dan Harris?

  invented and then studied. We'll talk about other kinds of journaling, including to-do lists and gratitude lists, why writing things down helps shift your perspective on your stress and your trauma, how that can lead to a whole cascade of benefits, and why Dr. Pennebaker, who's a very laid back dude, is actually so laid back about how often we need to journal in order to get all of the advertised benefits. We'll get started with Dr. James Pennebaker right after this. A few things before we hear from our sponsors. I just want to gently nudge you, if you haven't done it already, to go over to danharris.com and sign up for my new-ish meditation app, 10% with Dan Harris. I am so proud of what we're doing over there. We've got all of

• 2:15Dan Harris?

  these live video sessions at least once a week where you can meditate with me or one of our amazing teachers and then get your questions answered. We've also got courses from legendary teachers like Sharon Salzberg and Joseph Goldstein. We've got a growing library of guided meditations from teachers like Sharon and Joseph, but also 7A Selassie, Jeff Warren, and on and on. But really, the secret sauce is community. It is so hard to boot up or maintain a meditation practice, and one of the things that really helps is doing it in the carpool lane, and that's what we have set up over on the app. Go to danharris.com. There's a free 14-day trial if you want to check it out before you buy. We'll be right back after this.

• 2:59Dan Harris?

  Dr. James Pennebaker, welcome to the show.

• 3:01Speaker 01

  It's nice to be here.

• 3:02Dan Harris?

  And welcome back, Dr. Bianca Harris.

• 3:05Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 3:05Dan Harris?

  Okay, so let me just, let me start here. I'd love to hear a little bit of your origin story, Jamie. And by the way, just for the listeners, he told me I can call him Jamie. How did you get interested in the subject of journaling in the first place?

• 3:17Speaker 01

  I actually wasn't that interested in it. What had happened, early in my career, I was doing work on physical symptoms and how people come to know how they feel. And I was writing a book on it, and I thought, I should have a chapter on what kind of people report lots of physical symptoms. So I put together a questionnaire, and I worked with my students to come up with, what kind of questions should we ask? We asked all sorts of things. And somebody said, how about this? Prior to the age of 17, did you ever have a traumatic sexual experience? This was 1979. And I thought, yeah, that sounds good. So we threw that one on, along with a dozen, maybe hundreds of other questions. And we

• 4:00Speaker 01

  discovered that one question was associated with every kind of health problem imaginable. And we ended up doing a more national sample and found the same thing. And I became fascinated by this. What was it about a traumatic sexual experience that could have been years earlier that was associated with reporting symptoms, but also other objective health problems? And one of the things that emerged was, it was secret. And we did later studies, and we found that having any kind of trauma was bad for you. We'd always known that. But if you kept it secret, it was much more toxic. And this made me start to wonder, if keeping

• 4:40Speaker 01

  secrets is so bad for you, what if we brought people to the lab and had them talk about them? Like, talking was too much trouble. And from a research perspective, I thought just having them write might work. And so we ended up doing a study where we asked people to come in and either write about a deeply upsetting experience, ideally one that you hadn't talked in any detail with others, or to write about superficial topics. And they gave us permission to get access to their health records. And what we found was that those people who wrote about these traumatic experiences ended up going to the Student Health Center at about half the rate of people in our controls. That was a profound

• 5:22Speaker 01

  finding for me. And even back then, I thought, you know, this could be a big deal. And so that, that really was what spurred my interest. You know, and I had done, I had written occasionally, you know, when I was, when I was going through upsetting experiences, I would just sit down and I'd just write, what the hell is going on with me? Why am I feeling the way that I am? And I would generally just write once, and I noticed I felt a lot better. And I saw this with people in our study, and that was what got me into it.

• 5:56Dan Harris?

  Just to sum that up, there were two findings that set you off on this path. One was, if you have a secret trauma, that has potentially deeply destabilizing health impacts, psychological, physiological. And the second is that if you write about it, it can reduce those negative impacts.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  That's exactly right.

• 6:18Dan Harris?

  I'm interested, Bianca, we're early in this interview, but just those two findings, how do they land for you when they go through the prism of your mind?

• 6:27Speaker 02

  I love it. The first thing I think about is, I write a lot. At various times in my life, I've called it journaling. At other times, I've just called it writing, since a lot of the sort of personal dump is about, is relevant to what I'm trying to write about in terms of imposter syndrome. But what I really love, just at the beginning of what you're saying as a clinician, is that sort of merger of the psychological and the physical. And I say that in part because I've always known that it's been helpful, but to really see that there are measurements on them, and a very difficult thing to measure, I'm sure. There's so many confounding variables, I'm sure, the types of trauma, how long the secret

• 7:12Speaker 02

  has been there, the characteristics of the human being, et cetera. But just the broad strokes of it, I find really fascinating.

• 7:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, one of the things that intrigued me from the very beginning was, you know, I would start interviewing people who had had, say, a traumatic sexual experience or some other kind of trauma. And what really completely shook me was, as they would tell me about it, they would talk about how keeping this big secret completely disrupted their lives and their social lives. So the very first person I interviewed talked about being molested by her stepfather. And she was in this position that she couldn't tell her mother because her mother was so happy with this new guy that she had married. And so all of a sudden, she couldn't talk to her mother because she was afraid that it would,

• 8:03Speaker 01

  it would leak out. She couldn't talk to her friends because, you know, she was only 13 or 14, and she didn't think they'd understand. And what was happening was, she was getting more and more isolated from her family, from her friends. She couldn't tell anyone. She was constantly on guard. She couldn't sleep. And this, this, the sexual part of it was, in some ways, almost a minor part compared to the complete disruption of her life. And you can see the degree of stress this has on somebody.

• 8:36Dan Harris?

  Does one need to have a secret trauma in order to benefit from journaling?

• 8:43Speaker 01

  Not at all. You know, all of us have had major disruptions in our lives. Could be you failed at something that everybody knows about. It could be almost anything, but we often choose not to talk about it with others. You know, I don't want to come across as weak. I don't want to come across as vulnerable or whatever. One thing that I think is important to ask ourselves is, why is it usually at the end of the day when we come home, we tell our spouse or friends about what happened during the day? Upsetting experiences. And I think one reason we talk about them normally is that it helps to organize them in our minds.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  And if you have some kind of upsetting experience that you choose not to talk about, you can't talk about because it might hurt other people's feelings, you don't organize it. And one thing that I started to realize in the studies I did and other people started to do was that putting something into words almost forces some kind of structure, some kind of way of organizing the experience.

• 9:50Speaker 02

  How do you know when one is organizing their experience, which I think can only happen according to how that person experienced it? And then there's a story created around it, as we all do. Sometimes that story, and particularly in trauma, may not be fully accurate in terms of how it was portrayed, which is not to negate the impact of it or say that that story was not the true story to that person. But how might that impact perpetuation of a story of inaccuracy?

• 10:28Speaker 01

  That was just something that bothered me early on in my research. But I eventually came to realize it just, I don't think it matters. Coming up with a story helps to steal the mind. I think one reason we ruminate so much after a trauma, especially one we don't talk to other people about, is our mind is trying to put all the parts together to come up with some kind of meaning to it. And even if the meaning might not be accurate, if we believe it, we don't think about it as much. It allows us to move on. So I don't think accuracy is the best way to think about it. Obviously, some stories may be self-defeating in some way.

• 11:13Speaker 01

  So in that sense, accuracy may be very beneficial. But in other, otherwise, I'm not sure it's, it matters that much.

• 11:22Dan Harris?

  It's really interesting. I mean, that we are meaning-making creatures. You know, our brains can't rest until we've made sense of something generally. We hate uncertainty, ambiguity. So that definitely lands for me. Now that I'm talking about myself, I'm gonna keep pressing on something I asked earlier, which is, I don't, I have not had many big T-trauma events in my life yet. And not to say that I haven't had ups and downs. And I don't think I've had many secret traumas. Although, as I say this, I realize I wrote a memoir about having a panic attack on television and not telling anybody that was caused by taking drugs in my, after going to a war zone. So that was a secret trauma that I did write about and it felt better afterwards. But I guess I'm trying to represent the people in the audience

• 12:06Dan Harris?

  who might not see themselves in either the word trauma or secrecy, but of course have had ups and downs in their lives and are wondering, can I too benefit from journaling?

• 12:17Speaker 01

  And, and I'm kind of in the same boat. I've had ups and downs in my life and I haven't had a major, a major trauma myself. However, what we find in all of this work is, all of us have had major stressors and conflicts. And in our studies, in fact, in our early studies where we had people to write about traumas, I would always add, and if you haven't had the trauma, I want you to just write about a major stressor or conflict. It turns out, everybody has something to write about. We all are dealing with issues. And I think one thing that I suggest to people is, if you find yourself tossing and turning in the middle of the night about something,

• 13:01Speaker 01

  if you find yourself worrying about something too much or talking too much to other people about something and you can tell these other people don't want to hear it anymore, you may benefit from writing. And so I don't think, you know, the word trauma has become a very popular term over the last 20 years. But I don't view this necessarily as a trauma. I would view writing about something that is weighing on you can be beneficial. Another thing about writing, you know, the first study that I did, and this first study was published in 1986. We actually ran it in 1983, 84. One thing that was surprising about this study was I didn't know how much I should have people write.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  And I was in this position where, I was at a small college and we had about 50 people who could be in the study. And I thought, well, I should probably have them write more than once. So I figured, okay, that they had, they would get five hours of experimental credit. Well, heck, why don't we have them write four times? And then I needed to find the rooms and I could only get rooms after five o'clock. And I could only get so many rooms. And so we would essentially line these people up and run them for about four hours. And each person would write for about 15 minutes a shot for each of four days. So half the people wrote about traumatic experiences

• 14:28Speaker 01

  and another group wrote about superficial topics. And the study worked. And so afterwards, it became, you know, I thought, well, I guess we should stick with that, that formula. But then, you know, there've now been probably 2,000 expressive writing studies that have been published. And you don't have to write four times. You don't have to write 15 minutes a time or 20 minutes a time. There, you know, there've been all of these variations. And for myself, I don't write four times, 15 minutes a time very often. I don't write very often. I'll probably maybe two or three times a year. Usually there's been, I've had a fight with my spouse or somebody at work or I'm worried about something.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  And sometimes I just get up in the middle of the night, sit down, write for, until I feel like I've written enough. And then I go, go back to bed. I'm not a journaler. The idea of writing every day for the rest of my life, I find for me overwhelming and depressing. I, I just don't do that. I write when something bad happens and I want to get over it and move on.

• 15:36Dan Harris?

  I find that so liberating.

• 15:40Dan Harris?

  The fact that you, who could argue that, you know, the, the patron saint of journaling, the scientific guru of journaling, see it as a very useful tool that you do deploy, but really kind of in extremis, not as some death march that you have to go through every day.

• 15:58Speaker 01

  That's right. You know, I view it like kind of an antibiotic. I got some kind of health problem, give me drugs for, you know, a few days and then I don't want to take them anymore and I move on with life.

• 16:08Speaker 02

  I guess it depends on the person.

• 16:10Speaker 01

  It, and that's, and by the way, because I, Bianca, you, what you were saying, you, you like to write a lot. And I have a lot of people who, who talk to me and they tell me how they do it. And, you know, I, I don't want to write a lot. I write only when I'm unhappy. When I'm happy, I would never write. Why do I want to write when I'm happy? I just want to enjoy the happiness. And how people write is tremendously different. So for example, early on, one of my students said, well, she writes. And then, then after she writes, the next day she'll go back and she'll revise what she's written. And she'll do that over and over again. And I'm thinking, I would never do that. Reading what I've written is too depressing. Why would I ever want to read it again?

• 16:55Speaker 01

  But I do know many people really benefit. And one of my primary recommendations is, I am not a guru. I don't have truth. I don't know why it works exactly. And there's not one true way. And everyone needs to be their own researcher, their own scientist, and experiment to see what works best for you.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  That, that makes perfect sense. I think the thing that works best for me right now, and I've been writing now for years, is to understand the narrative, both in terms of what it had been, where it is, and where I would like it to be in terms of personal health. And what I find very interesting, and I'm not sure if you've looked at this or could look at it, is what, let's just take one event, for example, that somebody writes about. What does that event on paper look like over time? Because I know that I've written about aspects of a single event many times over the years.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  And sort of taking the 30,000-foot view now, which I'm much closer to than I was before, the narrative around it really has changed, which is a goal of mine personally. First, it was about the purge and saying things that I couldn't say out loud, whether it was a secret or it was, you know, a fight that I wanted to have with someone, but didn't know how, I could put it on the page. But over time, it became more of this sort of really expressive writing where ideas behind it came through. And as a result of that and the change over time, there are many more positive emotions than, than negative ones. Because a lot of what triggers me to write is not a sit-down-and-write moment. It's an insight.

• 18:49Speaker 02

  Sometimes it's distress. Usually it's an insight either coming from just my own feelings or from reading something and I have an idea. And once I start writing, then the interesting stuff happens. So it's a lot, not for everybody, but that's really what has served me well.

• 19:11Speaker 01

  Spoken with so many people about their varying experiences and yours is a very common one. I work quite a bit with people who have really used writing much of their life and they say very similar things. I think mine was, and I suspect you're probably more introspective than I am. My wife sometimes rolls her eyes at the fact that I've become known for expressive writing because she's far more introspective than I am. You know, mine is, let's, you know, just put a Band-Aid on it and let's just keep, you know, just keep trying to move. And, you know, I do want to understand it, but it's, once I'm

• 19:52Speaker 01

  there and it's, you know, I have a good enough idea, am I able to move forward and have a good day or a happy life, at least for the foreseeable future, until the next miserable thing I'm confronted with?

• 20:09Dan Harris?

  I love that thing about your wife. I have a wife and I think she rolls her eyes at me being a quasi-happiness expert, given that she knows me as a barbarian, so.

• 20:19Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 20:21Speaker 02

  That was not my word. I could say other words, but I-

• 20:25Dan Harris?

  Notice she's not disputing the characterization. It's not her word.

• 20:29Speaker 02

  Not the first word. But I do write about you a lot.

• 20:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:34Dan Harris?

  Uh-oh. Where are you keeping those journals?

• 20:37Speaker 02

  Lock and key, lock and key.

• 20:40Dan Harris?

  Most of us can remember being about 15 and feeling completely invisible, or worse, extremely visible, but for the wrong reasons. I remember one year when I was a teenager, I had a pimple in the crevice of my nose for the entire year. I didn't like that. Either way, even if we have painful memories of that age, most of us tend to soften it in memory, and it was actually harder than we remember it now. That is the territory of Carrie, now streaming on Prime Video, the first ever television adaptation of Stephen King's Carrie. Eight episodes from Mike Flanagan with Stephen King as an executive producer. Flanagan had described this show as a tragedy. It's about a girl who doesn't feel seen by

• 21:24Dan Harris?

  anyone and about how small, everyday acts of unkindness compound into something nobody meant to cause, which happens now at a speed and scale that would have been unimaginable not long ago. What I really appreciate about the show is that the show takes Carrie seriously as a person rather than as some sort of symbol, and the season keeps circling around one major question. Are you watching the making of a hero, a villain, or something more complicated than either of those options? Carrie is now streaming on Prime Video.

• 22:04Dan Harris?

  All right, well, let me ask a sort of a technical question, Jamie. Your protocol is called expressive writing. You've been very clear in a helpful way that one does not need to follow the exact directions that you use among your study participants, but it might be worth your describing what directions you do give to people so that we're aware of it at the very least.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  When I'm talking to a person who's not in an experiment, my recommendation is, look, go find a place where you won't be bothered and you can set aside, let's say, 15, 20 minutes a day for at least three or four days. And

• 22:46Speaker 01

  once you are able to go to this place where you feel secure, just sit down and you can write. You can write on a computer. You can write a longhand. How you write is entirely up to you. And really let go and explore your deepest thoughts and feelings about this, the issue or issues that are weighing on you. And in your writing, really let go and explore your very deepest thoughts and feeling. And in your writing, you might tie what you're dealing with with other events that might be similar to this. Maybe it might be related to your childhood, your relationship with your parents, your family of origin,

• 23:25Speaker 01

  or issues going on in your social life right now, or loves, or career issues. And you're free to write about that same upsetting experience each day, or something different each day that's entirely up to you. But whatever you do, just really let go and explore your thoughts and feelings. And in reality, you might find that after the first day, you feel fine and you don't feel like writing anymore. Great, don't write anymore. Or you might start writing and you start to get extremely distressed, then you know this is going to bother you even more. Stop writing. You know, writing does not work for everyone

• 24:05Speaker 01

  all the time. And you need to pay attention to how you're feeling both during and afterwards. If after I recommend writing three or four days, some people feel like they need to write more afterwards. Sure, do it. Sometimes they want to write more than 15 or 20 minutes. Great, it's free. Do whatever you want. Or, you know, some studies, people have just written two minutes or three minutes a day and it's beneficial. Be your own scientist. You know what's best for you, much better than I do. And what topics should you choose? Well, what topics are weighing on you? I've had the experience of thinking I was really

• 24:48Speaker 01

  upset about a particular topic and I started writing and I was bored writing about it after two or three minutes. And then I realized, wow, that wasn't the problem at all. It was something else that was related to it that was really bugging me. And let your writing guide your own thoughts about what are the issues that are important to you right now. But the primary issue is there is not one true way. And really experiment.

• 25:19Speaker 02

  I want to send some compassion out to my younger self because I did keep a journal, which I'm sure we call diaries in our adolescence, that was useful, but also distressing to look back on. And I threw it out. And even in some, then I took a long vacation away from journaling. And then when I started again for a brief period of time, years later, when I look back on that, I ripped out the pages that I didn't want to read, just like we select photos for an album where we don't look terrible. And the first time I did it, I threw out the journals. It was because it hurt me too much. The second time I did

• 26:01Speaker 02

  it was because I didn't want somebody else to find them and realize what I felt about myself, which is, there's some sort of progression or growth in there, I suppose. But it did dawn on me in reading, you know, about you before starting, that would it have been worse for me to not have written or to have written and thrown away? Because in some ways, it was, I was invalidating everything that I was experiencing by saying, you are not worthy of being here. It's not really an answerable question, but it is one thing that I thought about.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  You know, that many people ask me about what should they do with their writing samples. I recommend starting your writing, if you haven't done a lot of writing, with the intention of destroying it when you're finished. In other words, this writing should be for you and you alone. The one thing that I caution people is, you need to be able to put this writing someplace that nobody else can find it. Because one reason you are writing this stuff is because perhaps you're afraid someone else will see it, or you would be humiliated or it would break up, you know, it would hurt other people. And I've had heard stories,

• 27:17Speaker 01

  all of us have heard stories where someone found their diary and it led to the kinds of things that they were fearing in the first place. So be very sensitive with, in terms of what you do with this writing, so that it is maximally beneficial for you, but not harming other people.

• 27:35Dan Harris?

  I'm just keying in on that phrase, for you and you alone. I have never done the type of expressive writing or journaling that you're describing here. However, I've written one and a half memoirs, one that's been published and another that I'm toiling away on. And I find that I get a lot of the benefits you're describing, which is that it helps me make sense of my life. It helps me see things more clearly, work process, ups and downs in my own life. And yet, it's not for me and me alone.

• 28:09Speaker 01

  I would, you might just try this. Set aside some time and simply write for 20 minutes for you and you alone and throw it away when you're finished. In other words, one reason I like you and you alone language is because it forces you to be truly honest with yourself. And when you're writing a memoir or you're writing it for somebody else, you can't help but twist it. You know, you kind of look, you kind of want to look good, even if you say bad things about yourself. You kind of twist it a little bit so you look a little bit better than you really know you were. And so that, I think if there's

• 28:51Speaker 01

  any way to, in addition, if you're writing a memoir, you have the, your dark, real memoir. And then you have the, you know, the gussied up one.

• 29:04Dan Harris?

  I like that.

• 29:06Dan Harris?

  I like that a lot. Bianca, just going back to you for a second. We've been talking a lot about the value of meaning-making, you know, processing, making sense of the stuff in your, of the hard stuff in your life. And it just reminded me that you, I know, have an interest in, you took a course in narrative medicine and I think are looking into a course about narrative psychiatry. And so I don't even actually know if I know what those things are. So maybe you could describe that and see if it ties to what we're talking about here.

• 29:38Speaker 02

  Well, I can't fully describe narrative psychology. I was only introduced to that recently as something I'm really interested in looking at. And maybe you could tell us more, Dr. Pennebaker. So I'll put a pin in that for a second. My understanding, though, is it's just around how people tell stories and create meaning and how that shakes their lives. And because it's a formal or informal, I don't know how common it is, practice within psychology, there are ways of doing it with some sort of rigorous methodology in terms of measuring things that other people write about. But coming back to that in a second, the first part of what you were saying, Dan, about narrative medicine, that's a really, I think, really important feature

• 30:21Speaker 02

  that is probably not focused on enough within medical training because it really brings you to the bedside next to the human being. And it's about not only the patients being able to express themselves and what they're experiencing and as the provider, you being able to better understand who they are. But also as a provider, there's lots to write about, where you can certainly then discover not only what your issues are that may or may not help you help somebody else, but really just helps you be in the moment and benefit your patient as much as possible because of this connection and deep understanding.

• 31:03Speaker 02

  Now, nobody shows up in an exam room with a piece of writing to hand to their clinician and vice versa. But in essence, that's sort of what we would like to have, what's on the other end of that. And that would take time and conversation, which most clinicians don't have. So the narrative medicine, I took a course in it, not a, not a master's degree, which does exist, and there's a great one through Columbia University, is really about not only practicing writing, but practicing reading other narratives and really getting into what people are saying and how they are saying it, which I think Dr. Pennebaker probably has something to say about as well.

• 31:48Speaker 01

  I have spent some time with people in the narrative medicine world. And I've been impressed with their emphasis a lot on literature in terms of reading stories of illness and healing in classic literature as well as other kinds of narrative. And I think it has real strength to do just what you're saying. It's making a physician more aware of the person and the context of their illness. And what I would love to see more of in medicine and in psychotherapy as well is trying to appreciate that illness does not occur in a vacuum.

• 32:32Speaker 01

  This is, you know, dealing with relatives who have been having health problems. I'm fascinated that the kidney doctor just looks at the kidney and ignores the rest of the body. And the lung doctor looks at that and nothing else. And nobody ever says, well, what's going on in the person's life? That, you know, what we think of the old family doctor, you know, who went around with a little black bag as a true holistic medicine expert. But our training is so specialized now that we just don't do that. And I do think trying to understand the context, the life context of what's going on with the person is so important.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  But again, the economic models of medicine now don't allow it.

• 33:20Speaker 02

  That's true. Really, what, what resources are being poured into is dealing with the burnout and the fallout of not doing those things, which actually does involve writing.

• 33:31Dan Harris?

  The other thing you said earlier, Bianca, that I don't want to get lost in this discussion is you honed right in on whether the story should be accurate. And I just, I think that's a really interesting question. I understood Dr. Pennebaker's answer, which was, you know, I'm not dismissing the value of accuracy, but the real point of this exercise is a kind of a purge, getting it out there and making some sense of it. But I just wanted to make sure I didn't, that I gave you a chance to come back to this if it was something you wanted to say more about.

• 34:02Speaker 01

  If I could just bring up something about the metaphor you implied. I don't view expressive writing as a purge at all. I don't view it as allowing the pot to boil over, you know, to get, let all the emotions out. I view this as a much more cognitive process. That is, it's a quest for self-knowledge, self-understanding. Why am I feeling this way? So at the end, you walk away with greater insight in terms of why you've been so upset about this experience, why you've been obsessing about it, because you really need to understand what's happening. It's not that you're flushing the emotions away. It's not that you're purging anything.

• 34:45Speaker 01

  You have come to a new understanding of your situation, why you did what you did, why the other people did what they did, and also ways of how do I move forward from here?

• 34:59Dan Harris?

  So it's not a purge, it's a shift of perspective.

• 35:02Speaker 01

  And a new understanding, right.

• 35:04Speaker 02

  I think that all sounds just right. And the partner to that, which I think comes through writing around illness and going back to narrative medicine, is that so much of trauma is locked in the body. So they may be secrets that you don't even know that you have cognitively. And when you start writing about things that you actually physically feel, whether you're distressed or not, or you relate to an illness and start exploring that, there are, there's a whole other world of experiences that you may not have tapped into that also shape how we think.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  And that to me, you know, it's, it's interesting. As a child, I had asthma and, you know, everybody just pointed. I grew up in West Texas. It's a dry world, that it's lots of dust and nothing else. And I'd usually have asthma in the fall. And, you know, it was just, you know, it was just dust and stuff, pollen. And then I went off to college and I'd been there a while and my parents came to visit. And before they actually came to see me in my dorm, I developed asthma. And I remember thinking, oh, my God.

• 36:27Speaker 01

  That my asthma was, was related to my relationship with my parents, especially my mother. And it was kind of like, oh, my God, I had no idea. And that ironically pretty much cured me from my asthma once I saw that relationship.

• 36:46Speaker 03

  Maybe you've been waiting for the right time to make your move. At Eastwood Homes, that time could be right now. For a limited time, get a 4.99% interest rate on select move-in-ready homes. Beautifully designed, thoughtfully built, and ready right now. No waiting for someday. No wondering when the time will be right. It's time. All that's missing is you. Eastwood Homes, built with care. Visit eastwoodhomes.com to find your move-in-ready home today. Restrictions apply. See new home specialists for details.

• 37:17Speaker 04

  When it's time to scale your business, it's time for Shopify. Get everything you need to grow the way you want, like all the way. Stack more sales with the best converting checkout on the planet. Track your cha-chings from every channel right in one spot and turn real-time reporting into big-time opportunities. Take your business to a whole new level. Switch to Shopify. Start your free trial today.

• 37:48Dan Harris?

  But Bianca, just go back to accuracy because that feels like something that's maybe worth running down. Because I know for me, so many of the stories I'm telling myself benefit from some fact checking, from some mechanism to call bullshit on them, either through talking about it with somebody else, or viewing them, shifting my perspective internally. So I just want, I don't want to let that pass if you know where I'm going with this.

• 38:15Speaker 02

  I don't know if it's about fact checking, because I think the experience is the experience. Sometimes perhaps something was said that we don't remember, or vice versa. It's more the interpretation of it and the putting together of facts in a particular order. And for me, the writing is very much integrated with the talking. And so there is an ongoing conversation with my therapist, not after every writing, of course, but sometimes it does take somebody else seeing it. I think you have to sort of graduate to that point. But in a safe space, being able to feed back what they've heard versus what you've been

• 39:00Speaker 02

  saying, what they maybe know about you now versus the story you've told yourself from 30 years ago. Because no matter how healed you think you may be, there's always more to learn. You don't have to learn it all. But I think two things can happen. One, again, a therapist, or a friend, or some safe person that has, without judgment and with great care, held some of your secrets and pain for you, and is able to circle back with things that help either validate or reshape what you have told yourself if it's not beneficial. Also, sometimes going back to the players. And as a mature adult versus

• 39:42Speaker 02

  a little kid, you know, going to a mom, or a sister, or whomever, and saying, hey, is this what you experienced? I am revisiting several of those things right now. And it's fascinating, because one of the main things that comes out of trauma therapy in particular that I feel super excited about, is that once you really unearth your negative memories, there's a whole boatload of positive that you've suppressed with it. Even within the moment of trauma, or maybe not the exact moment, but within that timeframe, and you can't access those, huge swaths of your life have been totally overshadowed by short

• 40:25Speaker 02

  moments. Not to minimize those moments, again. But part of retelling the story, reframing the story, and taking from it, is recognizing that, oh, that year wasn't all shit. You know, there's a lot that happened that is still true and real and impacted me in a way that I can use now.

• 40:44Dan Harris?

  Dr. Pennebaker, I know that, or I believe I know, that one of the benefits that you've found among the folks that you've studied who have done expressive writing, which again is your journaling protocol, you see social changes, that they're more likely to talk to their friends about their stuff, and they're increasing their social engagement generally. Am I stating that accurately?

• 41:07Speaker 01

  That's correct. It's been very interesting. Years ago, I worked with a very interesting project when I was in Dallas, interviewing people who had survived the Holocaust. And they, they had been generally in concentration camps in World War II. They had moved to Dallas. These people now were, had kids. And I did surveys before we did these interviews with the survivors. And the majority of people had not talked to other people in any detail about their Holocaust experiences. And this was part of an archive project where we, people

• 41:46Speaker 01

  came into a television studio and we interviewed them. And then we gave them a copy of their videos. And then I contacted them again several weeks later. And the average person now had shown the video of their testimony to at least 10 other people. And they now were talking about it. And they never had, because they were afraid that other people would be too distressed by it. And I found this over and over again in our studies, that after writing about an upsetting experience, people are much more likely to talk about that experience

• 42:24Speaker 01

  with others. And also, the studies that we did, this is some other projects, what we would do is we'd ask people to wear a little tape recorder. And it had, it would have a lapel mic, and it would, the recorder would come on for 30 seconds and go off for several minutes, and then come on again. They never knew when it was on and off. And we'd ask them to wear this for two days in the week before their writing, and then again about a month later. And what we found was that people on questionnaires would say, well, you know, this study didn't affect my social behavior at all. But in fact, it did. The month afterwards, they were talking more with others, they were laughing more, they

• 43:08Speaker 01

  were using more positive emotion language. They were better friends. They could listen to others. They could respond in ways that they couldn't do prior to the writing. And I think part of this goes to some research that was done, showing that people who do this expressive writing, they have more, it's called working memory. They think better, they're able to remember things better. They are, they have more capacity, if you like, because they're not worrying about the things they were worried about before the experiment.

• 43:45Dan Harris?

  That is so interesting, that if something is bothering you, whether it's a secret trauma, or a sort of more mundane vexation, it's taking up bandwidth, that once you write it down, process it, get a greater understanding of it, I know you don't like purging, but let's just say, you know, unburdening yourself to a certain extent, then actually, you have access to parts of your brain that were previously being chewed up by this noise.

• 44:15Speaker 01

  That's exactly right. And actually, the first study that did this was looking at the college freshmen during their first weeks of college. You know, if you think back to when you get a new job, you start college, you start anything, those first few weeks are overwhelming. And you're, am I doing the right thing? Am I, how do I negotiate this new life? And by writing about it, it helps to simplify it, to organize it. And now you don't need to obsess as much as you have.

• 44:46Speaker 02

  I'm not a psychiatrist, but I do recall, I think, that there's something called pseudodementia that goes with depression and/or anxiety. And it really is this sense of having your brain co-opted when it's dealing with intense emotion, or secrets, or something else. And things as basic as word finding, and certainly memory issues. And they can be very scary when they present, but that's real.

• 45:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, this is a very real, we all get stupid when we're under a lot of stress. And this has been shown over and over and over again.

• 45:25Speaker 02

  That's a great quote.

• 45:27Dan Harris?

  I'm writing it down.

• 45:28Speaker 02

  I'm gonna use it first.

• 45:30Dan Harris?

  Don't be surprised if you see that on my Instagram sometimes, but I'll give you credit. What other, you've done decades of studies on expressive writing. What other benefits have you seen showing up physiologically and psychologically for people?

• 45:47Speaker 01

  It's a very, very long list. And I'm very serious, there have been over 2,000 studies done on expressive writing. It's been shown to be related to how long people are in the, in the hospital after surgery. It's associated with wound healing. It's associated with changes in various markers of immune function, kidney function, other kinds of biological markers. It's associated with absenteeism from work. It's associated with reduction in insurance costs. It's associated with better social lives afterwards. It helps people stop smoking, stop drinking. It helps them, you know, almost anything in life that

• 46:29Speaker 01

  you find yourself obsessing about or worrying about, it helps to organize them. People do better on standardized tests, like the MCAT, or SATs, or GREs, if they write about their stress, their issues in the days and weeks beforehand. In other words,

• 46:48Speaker 01

  Any place where your mind is overactive, you're ruminating too much, writing can be beneficial.

• 46:56Dan Harris?

  I've also read that it helps with sleep.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  It helps with sleep, so people sleep better after writing. If people are interested in trying to find out, can this work with this particular problem? Go to Google Scholar and enter expressive writing and fill in the blank. And there's probably been a study done on it.

• 47:17Dan Harris?

  Yeah, I mean, I've heard about it helping with autoimmune disorders, with decision making, with anxiety, lots of stuff.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, and chronic pain is one area that there's been some really fascinating research done, where it's associated with reduction in chronic pain, PTSD, you know, some of these big issues that we deal with in the mental health world and physical health world. And also, let me just stop for a second. This is not a panacea. Don't expect you write for three, three times, and then all of a sudden, you're going to win the lottery. Life will be beautiful. You're, the people you have wronged in the past will come and beg to be friends with you again. No, it, it helps sometimes, but it, this is not a panacea.

• 48:06Speaker 02

  I have two questions. One is, and I grant you that these studies are probably pretty hard to do in terms of really, in the randomized components, having, you know, samples that are truly randomized versus how are we controlling for mental health disorders and other things that might sway one way or the other. But generally speaking, are there any background mental health issues that either benefit more or perhaps should be, you know, not be done, you know, in solitary, I guess?

• 48:39Speaker 01

  If somebody is deeply clinically depressed, I'm not sure that expressive writing is the first method I would recommend. If you've just had a massive horrible trauma, I don't think writing is necessarily beneficial. And if you're, if you happen to be a therapist, I would never ask somebody who's just gone through a major trauma to, to push them to write about it at the time. If they want to, that's great. But I think people are particularly vulnerable in the aftermath of a, a major traumatic experience. I generally think that people benefit most

• 49:22Speaker 01

  when they find themselves thinking about something too much. And if you've had a major trauma and you're thinking about it all the time yesterday, you're not thinking about it too much, that's normal. But if you're thinking about it all the time, six months later, that's too much. So that would be my primary recommendation with not to write. And also, if you start writing and you don't feel better, if you don't feel so this is being beneficial, this might not be a good time to write as well. In terms of, are there particular places where it is beneficial?

• 50:03Speaker 01

  You have to be your own researcher here. In other words, try it. There's, think about it, there's no downside. It's free. I'm not going to ask you to send me $50 because I came up with the idea and I patented it. It's not patented, nobody patented the idea. And you can throw away what you've written, nobody needs to see it and probably shouldn't see it. So try it. And there's, there's, that's what I like about it. There's no significant downside that I can see.

• 50:36Speaker 02

  It's interesting, too, what you say about doing it for you because it just makes me think about, you know, admissions essays to medical school, to colleges, and how really it's become about proving that you've been through something and that you've overcome, or perhaps you haven't, but you're able to disclose more about it. And for some people, that really works. But for others, and I think for minorities in general, from what I've read about, that can be distressing if it's something that is expected to be brought forward and yet it's being relived and almost objectified in a way as a measure of your, your worth to a, an academic endeavor.

• 51:19Speaker 02

  So, yeah, I think really writing about it for yourself is, is an important note.

• 51:26Speaker 01

  That's exactly right. I know you all are thinking about some kind of writing exercise on your website. And the primary issue is, I would urge people when they do this, is that this writing is for you and you alone, that unless they somehow specify it, there's no feedback, that this is something that is, something that just gives them the freedom to write. You know, and there can be prompts as well, questions such as, in writing about this, how might it be related to your family?

• 52:07Speaker 01

  How does this affect how you are getting along with others? Or how is this affecting your health? Or things like that. So you could have prompts, you could, there's so many ways you can set it up. But the essence is giving people the opportunity to put this issue into words, ideally one that they've not spoken to other people about in general, and letting them come up with their own kind of understanding of the experience.

• 52:36Dan Harris?

  I believe there's been some research on gratitude lists. Is that something you've looked into as well?

• 52:42Speaker 01

  I have not. I don't know the literature on it. And again, I believe in trying everything. It's really important, there is not a true way. And so try gratitude lists. And if you feel better, if you feel so it makes a difference, fabulous, keep doing it. So I think that's the most important issue. I'm not selling a, a panacea, and I, nobody is selling a panacea. All of us need to, if you are suffering, try to figure out what works best for you.

• 53:20Dan Harris?

  Yeah, yes, just to emphasize, you're in a welcoming place for people who are allergic to panaceas, given the name of this show is 10% happier. So we, we're not, we're not about miracle cures here. Just to say on gratitude, I've done a little bit of looking at that, and it does appear there, it does appear that there are some benefits to that. There are a couple of other ways that I have found journaling to be helpful. One, there appears to be some literature on the other, I haven't seen anything. One is that the sort of making and remaking of to-do lists. Apparently, I find it very helpful in terms of setting my priorities and helping me make better decisions. And it reduces, it helps my working memory

• 54:04Dan Harris?

  because I'm, I've got it all in one place and I can then focus on what I need to do. And that appears to be backed by some data. And then the other thing I use journal for is when I'm in conversations, in fact, I'm doing it in this conversation. I'm taking a lot of notes, especially about things I want to say, so that I don't forget what I want to say, but I also don't jump in and interrupt somebody else and cut them off. So any thoughts on neither or both of those?

• 54:30Speaker 01

  Since I hardly do any to-do lists, I don't approve of them.

• 54:37Speaker 01

  But sure, if they're helpful, do them. And I do, when I'm under stress, when I'm about to move, there are certain times I actually do to-do lists myself. And I do think they do exactly what you're saying. They are helping your working memory, so you don't have to keep thinking about it. Those thoughts now are transferred to a piece of paper, so that paper is having you do all the work. So in that sense, yeah, that makes good sense to me. So I get, anything that we do that you feel is beneficial, do it.

• 55:16Speaker 02

  I can really see the subjective benefit, certainly the measurements that you've made around physical symptoms and, and some illnesses. But what is, what do we think the mechanism is behind writing and all of those outcomes?

• 55:36Speaker 01

  So the way I've come to think about it, first of all, there is not a single explanation. And this, from a scientific perspective, is horrible because we want a nice, simple explanation. And what I've come to appreciate over the years is it's really a whole cascade of things.

• 55:56Speaker 01

  When you sit down to write about an upsetting experience, ideally one that you have not spoken to other people about is, the first thing you're doing is acknowledging it has happened. So that's the first issue. The second is you're putting it into words. When you put something into words, you are changing the way that it's organized in your mind. And we know this from research on eyewitness identification and many other places in psychology. Putting something into word really does simplify it in our minds. And it simplifies it in a way that it also distorts things because now it's simpler than it actually was when we experienced it. The next thing is, once you've put it into words,

• 56:38Speaker 01

  you have to impose structure on it. Even putting it into a sentence requires that there's a beginning, middle, and end of that sentence. And your next sentence almost innately follows from the first sentence. In other words, when you, you know, you've had an upsetting experience and you're walking down the street, you think about this part of it and you think, oh, I should have done this. And then you start thinking about something else and you think about that, but you're not bringing it all together. And what writing is doing is it's forcing structure, it's forcing you to see things from a broader perspective. And then it, and all of this is effectively giving it some meaning,

• 57:21Speaker 01

  which means now that we don't have to obsess about it or ruminate about it the way that we had been in the past, which means we sleep better. And we know that sleep is associated with more efficient immune function. It's associated with working, improved working memory, drops in depression, all of these other markers, which is also associated with changes in our eating behavior. You know, all of, so all of these things are related with the changes in social behavior. It allows us to be better friends so we can listen to other people better and we are more socially connected. So it's, it's a mixture of all of these. And we could also, if we wanted to go in the direction of the brain, there's been research showing there are brain changes

• 58:06Speaker 01

  and there's all sorts of changes in autonomic nervous system and immune function systems. So all of these systems are interconnected. So that's, on one level, not a very satisfying mechanism. But the reality is, is when we're dealing with people dealing with major upsetting experiences, their entire lives have been disrupted. Their eating patterns, their connections with others, their work life, their home life, everything. And so it's not surprising that writing is one strategy that it can help to help align all of these changes that have occurred.

• 58:47Speaker 02

  So mechanistically, it might be very, very generally speaking that it's really a modulation of the stress response that then impacts all these other pathways, even changes in the brain?

• 59:01Speaker 01

  Yes, but then someone could say, well, it's the changes in the brain that's modulating all these other responses. And then other people say, oh, no, it's changing their social behavior, which changes their brain, which changes. So all of these, I mean, that's what's so interesting. These are all so horribly interconnected. That's the problem of being a human or actually being a primate, actually even being more than a single cell animal. And even-

• 59:32Dan Harris?

  I'm picturing Iguaçu Falls in Brazil, where Bianca and I just went with our son. You know, it's just these series of interconnected cascades. And that's coming to mind as you're talking about the benefits here.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  That's, that's, that is, now that's a metaphor. I can work with that.

• 59:53Dan Harris?

  We're kind of rounding third here into the, into the final section of our, of our time together. But before I let you go, in, in preparing us to do this interview, our producer, Marissa Schneiderman, who's, who's running point on this episode, she, every time we do an episode, one of the producers, in this case Marissa, gives me or me and Bianca a prep doc. And in Marissa's prep doc, there was a section where she talked about another, and I think maybe related field of study that you've engaged yourself in, which is the psychology of word choice. And so I thought, before we let you go, I'd invite you to say a few words about that.

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  So fortunately, we've got another two hours to talk, so I-

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  The expressive writing research, the first paper came out in 1986. And in the next few years, one of, you know, more and more studies started to show that it was beneficial. And it led me to, and others, to ask the question of why does writing work? And one of the issues I became interested in was maybe we could get a better sense of how people benefit by looking at their actual writing samples. And maybe I could, if I analyzed their writing samples, I'd have a better sense of how they were changing in their thinking. I gave these samples to clinical graduate students and had them write them along multiple dimensions, which turned out to not work very well.

• 1:01:21Speaker 01

  The people didn't agree on the dimensions and, and there were similar problems. And I thought, well, you know, if, maybe I could just get a computer to analyze this data, over the analyze the words. And there, as it happened, I couldn't find any. So I, I ended up working with one of my graduate students at the time, Martha Francis, and she and I put together a computer program that would go through and analyze text and calculate the percentage of words in the text that were, say, positive emotions or negative emotions or different kinds of cognitive styles, the way people were thinking. And we also looked at other parts of speech, you know, pronouns and prepositions and so forth.

• 1:02:05Speaker 01

  And the computer program ended up giving us some insight that in fact, that people who benefited the most tended to use more positive emotion words in their writing, which might get back to the gratitude issues. But what was even more potent was the people who tended to change and increase their use of cognitive words. These cognitive words could be causal words, words like because, cause, effect, you know, for people trying to understand the cause and effect of issues or inside words, words like understand, realize, know. The people who increased in their use of those words benefited more than people who didn't. And this started to get me to think

• 1:02:49Speaker 01

  about how we can look at thinking patterns and other psychological patterns in language. And one of the things that popped out also was that we discovered that people who benefited the most, some days would use I words, I mean, my words at high rates. And on other days, they might use words like he, she, we, you at high rates. Almost as though they were changing perspectives from day to day. And the people who wrote in the same style did not benefit. And this led me to, the last 20 years, 30 years of research, focusing on what we can learn about ourselves

• 1:03:34Speaker 01

  and about people in general by the way they use words. So for example, we can get, see personality differences in, in the way people use words. That a good example might be of the people listening to this podcast, if we went in and analyzed all of your text messages or all of your emails over the last few months, I could immediately tell which people are really sociable and which ones aren't, simply by looking at third person pronouns, he, she, they, or maybe words like we. That people interested in other people make references to other people. But there's a big shock. But it's, what's interesting about this is

• 1:04:19Speaker 01

  there are these little words that none of us ever pay attention to that tell us about others. And that has been, that is where I've gone in the last several years. And it's relevant to our ability to see how people think. So we've done research in terms of, with Reddit, looking at how the pandemic affected the culture and how it has changed the way that we have thought over the last three or four years. And we can get, we can look at differences in cities and age, sex, social class, et cetera. It's a really interesting marker of people's kind of psychological lives as it's revealed through language.

• 1:05:00Dan Harris?

  Are there practical takeaways based on this area of your research vis a vis the first area, which is journaling? In other words, can we look back over what we've written and use the lens that you just described to help us improve in any way?

• 1:05:19Speaker 01

  A little bit. Keep in mind that language reflects our psychological state. It doesn't drive our psychological state. In, in other words, we've done studies where we tell people, okay, I want you to write this, using this kind of language. And they can do it, but they don't benefit more than, than otherwise. But one thing you could look at, you can look at your own emails or text messages over time and you'll see certain things. So for example, people who are depressed or they're heading into a depression, start, they're shifting their language some. And one of the best markers is the use of these I words, I mean, my.

• 1:06:03Speaker 01

  When people are depressed, they use I words at higher rates than when they're not depressed. And people who are bipolar, who, who often fluctuate between manic and depressive periods. There've been some interesting Twitter studies showing that in the weeks before they are full blown depressed, you see this increased use of I words that is a kind of a leading indicator of psychological state. Now that the differences are subtle and a person might not see it themselves, a computer can see it. But the point is, is that there are mark, we all are leaking-

• 1:06:48Speaker 01

  Our psychological state all the time through our use of word.

• 1:06:53Dan Harris?

  Are there technologies out there, you know, that are commercially available that would allow us to do an analysis of everything we've written on email, Slack, social, et cetera, to tell us if there's any warning signs that we should be paying attention to?

• 1:07:09Speaker 01

  I have my own computer program and there's a commercial version of it, but my computer program is called Linguistic Inquiry and Word Count, L I W C. We pronounce it Luke. It doesn't look like Luke, but hey, it's mine. I call him Luke. And so you could, if you go, if you just do a Google search, you can find where it is and you can enter text and it can analyze it, or you can buy the program. And so that there are ways that such programs do exist.

• 1:07:44Speaker 02

  I'm just wondering what the profile would be, looking at the text of someone who doesn't use I or you and just answers in one word like yes, no, ooh.

• 1:07:55Speaker 01

  They're deeply disturbed.

• 1:08:01Dan Harris?

  I can't, I'm struggling to guess who she could be referencing.

• 1:08:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'd be very concerned about them.

• 1:08:19Dan Harris?

  Bianca, before we go, any more questions on your side?

• 1:08:23Speaker 02

  Um, not that I can really articulate. I'm just grateful to know more about it, truly. Social, I was a psychology major in college and I have to say, social psychology was tough for me because it was really difficult to sort of define, categorize, measure things. And this in many ways just feels more complete and relatable, at least as a, as a clinical person. So, thank you.

• 1:08:52Speaker 01

  That, that's, that's exactly what I wanted to hear. Thank you.

• 1:08:59Dan Harris?

  Jamie, before we let you go, two questions I ask at the end of every interview. One is, the first is, is there some, something you were hoping to talk about that we didn't get to?

• 1:09:11Speaker 01

  No, I, I can talk about lots of things and I think what we did was just fine.

• 1:09:17Dan Harris?

  Okay. And then the final question is, can you please just list some books you've written and other resources you've put out into the world that you would like listeners to know about?

• 1:09:30Speaker 01

  For the language work, I have a book called The Secret Life of Pronouns. It came out about 10 years ago. I have also written and co-written a few books on expressive writing and opening it up by writing it down, words, books like that. So you can just Google my name and, and go fishing. I also have a website through the University of Texas and there's lots of publications there if you're interested in, in original work.

• 1:09:57Dan Harris?

  Okay. We'll put links to the website and the books in the show notes so that people, if they want to learn more, can get it. Having said that, this was a delight. You're really fun to talk to. Bianca, as always, you did a great job as well. So, thank you both.

• 1:10:09Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:10:09Speaker 01

  I thoroughly enjoyed this. Thank you, guys.

• 1:10:12Dan Harris?

  Thank you so much to everybody who works so hard to make this show. 10% Happier is produced by Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer. DJ Cashmere is our executive producer and Nick Thorburn of the great indie rock band Islands wrote our theme. One last thing I want to say before you go, if you enjoy this show, please do me slash us a solid. Follow the show and leave a rating and a review on whatever platform you watch or listen to us on. It only takes a minute. It's free and it really helps new people find us and spread the good news that the mind is trainable. Thank you. Sincerely. I mean it. Thank you.