“Shame keeps you silent!” Tell the truth to improve your self-worth

For ten years of her life, Fearne was gripped by a deep feeling of shame; she chats through how she’s now learning to let it go. Shame breeds in silence, so we’re talking about it loudly in this episode... -Shame researcher Brené Brown talks through how to cope with feeling ashamed through self-compassion -Comedian Dawn French explains that we all need to embrace being a bit of a twat sometimes because we learn more from mistakes than success -Artist Charlie Mackesy’s got some thoughts about how shame is stopping us being vulnerable and connecting with others properly -Mental health activist Ben West opens up about the shame he felt after his brother’s suicide -Singer Lulu reflects on how ashamed she was of her difficult childhood -Broadcaster Jamie Laing talks for the first time about his eating disorder and the shame he’s held inside for so long Listen to the full episodes here: Brené Brown https://pod.fo/e/fb13f Dawn French https://pod.fo/e/23125c Charlie Mackesy https://pod.fo/e/33c0e3 Ben West https://pod.fo/e/29cbdf Lulu https://pod.fo/e/331200 Jamie Laing https://pod.fo/e/340299 Child on the line is a three-part documentary podcast series celebrating the Volunteer Counsellors of Childline, and the brave children & young people who contact the helpline service. Listen here: https://www.childonthelinepodcast.com/ Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Fearne Cotton?

  Hi, I'm Natalie Dormer and I'm proud to be an ambassador for Childline. This year, Childline turns 40. To mark it, I've made Child on the Line, a three-part documentary podcast. We hear why children needed a helpline in 1986, how it was built against the odds and the challenges children face today, from abuse and mental health to social media and AI. Search Child on the Line and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:29Fearne Cotton?

  Hello and a massive welcome to Happy Place with me, Fern Cotton. Today, a pretty gritty subject that can be really difficult to talk about, but I know I've certainly got a lot to say about it, and that is shame.

• 0:43Speaker 01

  Guilt is, I did something bad, and shame is, I am bad.

• 0:47Speaker 02

  This is the other weird shame that hangs in you, just because you exist.

• 0:52Speaker 01

  And I absolutely believe people lead entire lifetimes defined by it.

• 0:57Speaker 02

  It's the feeling of it's just you, there's a deeply lonely feeling.

• 1:00Speaker 03

  I've never spoken of this, and still as I start to talk about this, I feel like shame, right?

• 1:04Speaker 04

  You feel a bit of shame, then you feel ashamed about that, and then it will just cascade.

• 1:08Speaker 03

  You know, it's hard for me to say, but I had an eating disorder, for sure.

• 1:11Speaker 05

  I had a lot of shame about my life, about moments in my life.

• 1:15Speaker 04

  I was so convinced I'd committed a crime, that I was absolutely petrified of anyone finding out, that I felt so ashamed.

• 1:22Speaker 05

  And so obviously, the violence and the alcoholism, I was ashamed.

• 1:30Fearne Cotton?

  Ugh, where do I even start with shame? Like many of you, it is my least favourite feeling, but also, like many of you, I have drowned in it at times. It has, at times it's totally taken over, because that is the nature of it. It's really insidious, it's very sneaky, yet unbelievably powerful, can hold reins on you for years and years. I would say for 10 years of my life, shame was weave through so many parts of it, and I'm only now sort of coming to terms with that and letting it go. And my God, does it feel good to let it go? And I think when you're recovering from bouts of shame...

• 2:13Fearne Cotton?

  There's lots of conclusions you can come to. One might be that the shame wasn't yours in the first place, and that is deeply, deeply important and very powerful. And that's certainly been part of my story. And also, it leads you to believe that you're the only one feeling it. And as we know, from this very podcast episode, and from the incredible chats I've had in real life and on social media, it impacts many of us. So there's many realisations you have, I think, when you're trying to heal from a period of shame. I really hope that this episode not only allows you to remember that loads of people feel it, and that there is nothing wrong with you, because I know when I was in shame, I felt like an absolute

• 2:58Fearne Cotton?

  freak, like there was something inherently wrong with me and everybody could see it. I promise, if you're thinking like that at the moment, it is 100% not true. There's nothing wrong with you. You're just a human trying to get through your life. Don't let shame take over. I really want that to be the message from this whole episode. And I really hope that if you know someone that might be drowning in shame themselves, that you send this on to them too. We're going to start with the queen of shame, Brené Brown. She's researched shame for decades, so she's got lots to say about how to cope with it. Do you know what? Weirdly, after I had done that interview with Brené, I went into a bit of a shame spiral myself, which seemed utterly ridiculous. But it was on Zoom. I

• 3:39Fearne Cotton?

  hate doing podcasts on Zoom. I like to be sat face to face with someone. I was nervous. It was at night because of the time difference. I didn't feel I did a good enough job. I went over every question in my head again. I felt like she had walked away thinking I was a moron. It was honestly bizarre, considering that is her whole shtick. But anyway, hopefully I'll get to interview her again and I can rectify all of that. Dawn French came on the show to talk about why she thinks we all need to embrace being a bit of a twat sometimes. This was such a great and funny episode, and how that can combat feeling ashamed. And Charlie Mackesy has got some really interesting thoughts about how shame is stopping us connecting with people properly. And then, three deeply

• 4:21Fearne Cotton?

  personal stories about feeling shame. Ben West, because of his brother's suicide, Lulu, because of her difficult childhood, and Jamie Lang, because of his eating disorder.

• 4:34Speaker 06

  For investors at the highest level of sophistication, those with strong advisory support, the natural outcome is two distinct portfolios, one public, one private. Each plays a different role in the overall strategy. Uncover new investment opportunities for you at creativeplanning.com/new.

• 4:49Speaker 07

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's go.o.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 5:21Speaker 08

  At Humana, our Medicare Advantage plans are easy to understand and easy on your wallet, like offering more benefits than you'd get from original Medicare alone, and including dental, vision, and hearing coverage in every plan. And the best part is, every plan has a $0 or low monthly plan premium, which makes it easier to save, too. So this Medicare planning season, plan well with Humana. Learn more at gethumana.com. Humana is a Medicare Advantage, HMO and PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 5:54Fearne Cotton?

  Before we get into it, I want to tell you a bit about the sponsors of this episode, The White Company, because The White Company have always believed that life is a beautiful thing, especially at Christmas. They make the season feel all special and effortless so we can savor all those little moments, from magical anticipation and preparation to celebrating and giving gorgeous gifts. If you've been a Happy Place listener for a number of years, you'll know that every year, I start Christmas shopping really early. I'm obsessed with getting people the perfect present. This year, I started the first week of October. I beat my personal best. I absolutely love thinking about what I'm gonna buy each person. I've quite a lot of people to buy for, so I have to really give it some thought.

• 6:39Fearne Cotton?

  I'm not in sort of spreadsheet territory, but I do like to make a comprehensive list of everybody that I've got to buy for. And then I like to deeply dive into who this person is and what they might need or want. I think the secret to matching the right gift for the right person is all about imagining their reaction when they open it. I love that moment of watching someone open a gift. I guess if I'm struggling with working out what somebody wants, I will use my interviewing skills to quiz them, to get some facts, some things they're into at the moment, to find out what's really floating their bow, and then put that to my Christmas list. Sometimes getting the right present for the right person just means knowing them very

• 7:22Fearne Cotton?

  well, because you know all their little idiosyncrasies, all of their likes, dislikes. For example, I usually get, one of my best mates Claire, something with the Queen on or David Bowie, because I know that both of those options will work very well. Or sometimes I like to get something really, really personal. So I bought gorgeous Elizabeth Day very recently, these cute little martini napkins with her name on, because I know that her favourite drink ever is a dry martini. This year, I'm already eyeing up some White Company gifts. Firstly, my managers just had a gorgeous, teeny little baby, so I'm gonna get her a silk pillow eye mask and a silk hair and skin beauty pillowcase, so that any sleep she does

• 8:07Fearne Cotton?

  get feels as deliciously restorative as possible when you've got a newborn baby. We know that sleep is rare in these times, it's very important. Then I've got this one mate who's always cold, always freezing, needs the heating on fully, a bit like me, so I'm getting her some cashmere wrist warmers, ugh, and a faux fur hot water bottle, I mean, I want them for me too. And one of the White Company's amazing smelling candles. Maybe the Tonka Luxury Signature Candle? Basically, those are all the things that I wanna receive, so I can just feel really cosy at home. Then for my gorgeous, sparkly cousin, some gold-plated molten midi hoops and a leather mini travel jewellery case to put them in.

• 8:52Fearne Cotton?

  Practical and chic, thanks very much. So with over 30 years of Christmas expertise, The White Company knows it's the thoughtful details that make the season special. From cosy home comforts to elegant dining and the art of meaningful giving, they make it easy to bring Christmas together beautifully. What you wear, how you host and the calm, comforting feeling of home. As a proud B Corp, The White Company is committed to thoughtful design, lasting quality and living life beautifully. Discover more at thewhitecompany.com. All right, let's do it. Here's the show.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  I started as a shame researcher 21 years ago, I guess. And I first started studying just women in shame. And I remember interviewing people, you know, in their 50s, 60s, that their whole lives were defined by it. I mean, really defined by it. And for those of you listening thinking, okay, what is she talking about with shame? I'm talking about this deeply painful experience of believing that we're flawed and somehow unworthy of love and belonging and connection, that something we've done or failed to do makes us unworthy. And it's very different than guilt. Guilt is, I did something bad. And shame is, I am bad.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  And we know from, you know, now, probably going on 60, 70 years of research, that guilt is helpful. Guilt is when I hold a behaviour up against who I want to be and my values and there's cognitive dissonance. It creates a psychological discomfort and we're like, shit, that is not who I want to be as a daughter, as a partner, as, you know, a professor or a leader. And I need to, I need to bring things into alignment. Shame is a whole different thing. Shame is...

• 11:02Speaker 01

  I'm not enough. And I absolutely believe people lead entire lifetimes defined by it.

• 11:09Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I mean, absolutely. And you say in the book, you know, the antidote to it is empathy, which we can all see how that plays out beautifully with human connection. And somebody saying, I see you, I hear you, or I've had the same situation happen to me. You know, I was very lucky that I was on the receiving end of that sort of empathy. But I wonder if you have to have perhaps a small side dish of self-worth in there for you to reach out in the first place, because it does require you to be even more vulnerable, because you have to then tell someone what you're feeling shameful about.

• 11:47Speaker 01

  I think the good news is, I think what you need is probably self-compassion.

• 11:51Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  I think you need to give yourself permission to be human, to be both kind and cruel, to be, you know, to get it right and to really fuck it up sometimes, to be connected, to be lonely. Just you have to, I think it's self-compassion that I love. You know, when I think about self-compassion, I always think about, talk to myself like I would talk to someone I love. And when I hold up how I talk to myself, when I screw something up, versus how I talk to my children, it's just, it's night and day. You know, if I, if my kids make a mistake, I'll first say, you know what?

• 12:37Speaker 01

  It's okay. You're human. Making mistakes is a part of, this is part, this is a part of who we are.

• 12:42Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  You know, when I make a mistake personally, I think to myself, God, you idiot. God, you're so stupid. And I would never, ever talk to my kids that way.

• 12:52Fearne Cotton?

  I wonder if the conversation is even more relevant today because cancel culture exists. And I really struggle with this one because, you know, a lot of the work that I do is I want to, to help people feel less alone. And, you know, shame certainly isolates you and ostracizes you. But how can we expect ourselves or others to eradicate shame from our lives, knowing that cancel culture exists?

• 13:17Speaker 01

  God, I feel like I want to look behind me to see if someone back there has the answer. Like, I just, I mean, this is, this is my new, this is my new theory. I've been really thinking about this over the last six months a lot. I think. We're so shit at holding people accountable that we turn to cancelling and shaming and vitriol and name-calling because we either don't know how or we're not willing to do the really rigorous, vulnerable work of holding people accountable. Like, we don't know how to do that. And so what we do, instead of saying, "When you engaged in this behavior," or "When you said

• 13:59Speaker 01

  this," or "When you took this action, it hurt me," or "It hurt other people," and "I'm going to hold you accountable for that," we just blast them. And so there's no learning. There's, I mean, it's incredible. The absence of accountability is so overwhelming, but it's so pervasive. It's like asking a fish to describe water. Like, we don't even understand it. So what we do is we just get rid of people.

• 14:32Fearne Cotton?

  Is that because we're doing it to ourselves, but we're not holding ourselves accountable for things with responsibility? We're shaming ourselves daily, therefore it's so easy to do it to other people.

• 14:42Speaker 01

  I think that's a really important insight.

• 14:43Fearne Cotton?

  Because I can only relate to what I've been through myself, but when I was in a big patch of shame, my option was shut down. I just closed off, shut down. But I think the only way I've been able to move through it and not carry that bag of shit around with me anymore is to face it and to not pretend that the stuff didn't happen, that I don't want to think about, and to look at what I might have been accountable for versus the stuff that people just projected onto me.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:14Fearne Cotton?

  And again, it goes back to, you know, understanding a guest accountability and also, you know, the thing that you're an expert in, which is looking at vulnerability and apologizing, or even if it's not public, but it's just to yourself, apologizing for the harm you might have even done to yourself. I think that, all of those feelings, it's so uncomfortably exposing, but essential, I think, if we're to move through this stuff and not just lug it around forever. Because we can, we can pull that stuff into, you know, to the future, decades and decades ahead. We'll still be carrying around that shame unless, I guess, we do face the monster that we've shut away somewhere. I think we can remember every time we've been shamed in our lives, more than probably

• 15:59Fearne Cotton?

  many other memories.

• 16:00Speaker 09

  They're buzzes that stick to us.

• 16:02Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, I was thinking about it reading your book. I remember this really harmless moment, but being probably five or six at school and drawing a picture of a house, as I'd been told to do. And my dad, who was a sign writer, used to kind of sketch and use this real sort of wishy-washy way of using his pencils. So I thought, I'm just going to copy my dad, he's a professional. And I got so told off and ashamed in front of the class for not colouring it in completely and neatly. And that's something that happened when I was five. We don't forget these moments.

• 16:31Speaker 09

  No, we don't.

• 16:32Fearne Cotton?

  And I think that's luckily slowly coming out of the parenting model and the school model, but it hasn't come out of how we're communicating on social media.

• 16:41Speaker 09

  No, it hasn't, but as you have grown through that and remember the sting of that awful moment, you also know now as an adult that that person was wrong to do that to you. So you might forgive them for it because they were, they got it wrong. And you have to hope with good intent, they had some other agenda, they mistook your creativity, they didn't get it.

• 17:02Fearne Cotton?

  They were having a shit day.

• 17:03Speaker 09

  Having a shit day, anything. Let's forgive that because that can go, but you know as an adult, they were wrong. You don't have to carry it as you were wrong.

• 17:13Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 17:14Speaker 09

  It's not your shame to have, it's their shame to have.

• 17:16Fearne Cotton?

  But I think as adults, we conflate the two. We don't know what our own opinion is anymore and we actually think the person that shamed us is probably right. And I've definitely felt like that as a grown adult. And I still find that tricky to unpick sometimes, like, you know, even if you know that your intent was good, but you still got it wrong, which happens all the time for all of us. Our intent's good, but we get it a little bit off, we're not quite sure what we're talking about. But when you've been shamed, I think it's really, it's a really tricky situation. My instinct is to hide, go into my shell, I'm never going to speak again, I don't want to say anything, or move into sort of scary territory. I think it's a really tricky thing to know yourself and go, but I know that, yes, I got it wrong, but I know my intent was good.

• 18:00Fearne Cotton?

  It's really tricky, you've got to, you've got to have guts to do that.

• 18:03Speaker 09

  It's a shame we don't trust each other that, that as a base level, that your intention is good. That's what I would like to believe about other humans.

• 18:11Fearne Cotton?

  Same.

• 18:12Speaker 09

  You know, you, you want to believe they meant well, but they got it a bit wrong. And that makes it forgivable then. I mean, I, I genuinely think we're, we're being forced into... Corners where I can smell my own cowardice. I don't like that. I've never been cowardly, I hope, but I'm starting to be that because I'm being circumspect about what I will support or not. In case it causes trouble. You know, and even thinking about the timing of when I might say such a thing, or what might be cherry picked out of this and lambasted against me. And yet, and that forces us to shut up.

• 18:54Fearne Cotton?

  I know.

• 18:55Speaker 09

  And we're not, we're not going to shut up. Haven't we lived long enough as women especially? You know, we, we, that's the last thing we should do is shut up. Or, you know, put baby in the corner. We shouldn't be back in the corner. And yet I am in the corner and I really dislike it about myself and about this cultural malaise. Where I just think, I'd like to support that person in what they just said there. Oh, hmm, that's going to be taken wrong. Because there's a whole gang of people that don't like this person, then I'm going to be in their gang and they wouldn't like me in that gang. And, and also can I be bothered? With the huge maelstrom that will come. But that means some people who are being brave enough to speak up are alone.

• 19:39Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 19:39Speaker 09

  Because those of us who might support them can't take on all the problems it might bring.

• 19:45Fearne Cotton?

  What a shitty.

• 19:46Speaker 09

  That's cowardly.

• 19:47Fearne Cotton?

  Load of crap we've got ourselves into here.

• 19:49Speaker 09

  Well, how has it happened? How have people given their lives so that we could vote? How have people done so many things to push forward and now we're in this place? I don't, like you, I don't know how to unpick it.

• 20:03Fearne Cotton?

  But like you just said, what we're, what we're missing out on when we either don't look at our mistakes or we're intolerant of other people's mistakes is the learning. We're not learning probably very much at all from the good moments, the happy moments, the perfect moments. They're lovely and they feel fantastic. But the learning is when you're on your knees. The learning is when you've looked back and you're cringing and you can't bear it. That's when you make a decision to go. I won't do that again.

• 20:29Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 20:29Fearne Cotton?

  Or maybe I'll learn a bit more about this or that or whatever. That's the good stuff.

• 20:33Speaker 09

  It is. And look, we know because we've got kids, they're going to make mistakes. Of course they are, they're they're supposed to. But that's when it's worrying. If if your kid makes a mistake and repeats it and repeats it and repeats it, especially if it's if it hurts them or gives them shame or embarrassment or a humiliation or any of those awful things, then then you have to worry. It's if if you make the mistake and even if you make it again, but then you move on or then you learn from it, hooray for those mistakes. I'm not sure what you learn from success.

• 21:07Fearne Cotton?

  Not very much at all.

• 21:08Speaker 09

  What I would say is I have seen increasingly in the last few years people with a lot of whatever success is, you know, wealth, I don't know what it looks like. I don't ever really entirely buy it. But people who have a lot of that feeling spiritually and emotionally bereft.

• 21:28Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 21:28Speaker 09

  Because somehow that part of their life, which looks all marvelous and seems to be all tied up means this part has been neglected. So what is success and what is the point of it all? I'd much rather live in a in the place I am, which is lucky, which is a bit awkward, bit wrong, bit ugly, but didn't feel right, got the wrong thing, got wore the wrong clothes, uh uh, said the wrong thing, regret that, come on. You know, constant, fussy, difficult, awkward stuff. Uh it is exhausting.

• 22:05Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 22:05Speaker 09

  But it's truthful.

• 22:06Fearne Cotton?

  It's being a human. It's being a human. We're expecting humans to not be humans. We're expecting them to be shiny, perfect robos and walk around, everything is perfect.

• 22:17Speaker 09

  Yeah.

• 22:17Fearne Cotton?

  Life is so messy.

• 22:19Speaker 09

  Yourself, uh uh, I mean, I know it's an old chestnut to blame social media, but I wish social media was full of lots of ugly, difficult, funny stuff. I wish you, and there is some of that. There is, that's what I I certainly cleave towards all that stuff. But but there's also far too much of aren't I perfect in this? I'm don't I, I went to this clever thing and I'm loveless. You know, there's that, which, and I don't begrudge anybody any of that.

• 22:42Fearne Cotton?

  But it's not real.

• 22:43Speaker 09

  Your other stuff on.

• 22:45Speaker 02

  I think shame is the very thing that prevents us daring to be vulnerable.

• 22:48Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 22:49Speaker 02

  And yet, that daring then opens up this window into the whole universe of connection and beauty and connection that we so try to get by being shiny and perfect, which wasn't working.

• 23:01Fearne Cotton?

  No, do you know what the shame thing I'm fascinated about? I'm writing a book at the moment and I've done a deep dive, I've gone off on a tangent about shame because it seems so important in the context of this conversation, the book that I'm writing about is that it silences you, it stops you, it makes you a mobile, you know, I had a big period of it. And I'm still so impacted by it and I thought, oh, when I was writing, I was like, I've got something to say on Instagram that feels like worth writing about. So I wrote this piece about shame and then someone shamed me in the comments and I shut down and I deleted it and I panicked.

• 23:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, you do, you react and shut down.

• 23:37Fearne Cotton?

  I couldn't, I couldn't have it and I was like, oh my God, but I'm writing about it and I still can't confront it. And then I went back to my book and I wrote exactly how I was feeling in the moment, which was sort of physically ill, like I wanted to jump out my skin, but equally I wanted to like stare shame in the face and like see who blinks first, like it was just so overpowering this feeling of shame, but it certainly made me take the post down. I was like, I don't, I need to hide, I don't want to be seen or heard or whatever. And like you've just said, if you can move through shame, if you can get past it, that's where you do something extraordinary, different, game changing for yourself, for others, but it's fucking hard to get through it.

• 24:18Speaker 02

  That's terrifying.

• 24:19Fearne Cotton?

  Terrifying.

• 24:20Speaker 02

  And I so related to it and the number of posts I immediately did because there's one comment.

• 24:26Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 24:26Speaker 02

  You know, I bet for every one negative you get.

• 24:29Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, I had loads of people saying, put the post back, I really liked it.

• 24:31Speaker 02

  Where's it gone, where's it gone?

• 24:32Fearne Cotton?

  I know, I was like, I can't, I'm, I'm still in it, you know, I still feel it. And that led to me having a really interesting conversation with a friend of mine who, you know, I know that he's had his problems and he's been relatively vocal about it, but he was like, shame brings me down almost every day still. And he was saying, you know, he'll even have an interaction with like the post lady and then spiral into shame afterwards because you said something a bit weird or whatever. And I was like, oh my God, you think you're the only person?

• 24:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:59Fearne Cotton?

  But we're all dealing with it, we're all dealing with it.

• 25:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I think shame, I remember reading somewhere, some, well, someone said it, I can't remember where, where there was two types of shame. And one is the toxic shame which remains in you for no apparent reason, just the fact that you have it and it sits there. And the other one is you feel ashamed of something you've done. And the the second one is easier to deal with. Yeah. You go, that was stupid, say sorry. And it's a shame, but there's a, this is other weird shame that hangs in you.

• 25:27Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 25:28Speaker 02

  Just because you exist.

• 25:29Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 25:31Speaker 02

  What?

• 25:32Fearne Cotton?

  It's mad.

• 25:32Speaker 02

  Right?

• 25:33Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah. And more of us feel like that than I think we care to believe, which is helpful because shame doesn't want us to know that other people feel like that.

• 25:42Speaker 02

  No, no, no, it's just you.

• 25:43Fearne Cotton?

  Just you.

• 25:44Speaker 02

  It was my fault.

• 25:44Fearne Cotton?

  You're the problem. Yeah, was it my fault? Yeah, I know, it's mind blowing.

• 25:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, but the the moment you start talking, I did a drawing years ago, I think, and it was in a police cell somewhere, but I said something like shame keeps you silent, but there's no shame in talking or asking for help. I think the moment you start talking about it is the moment people engage with it and think, oh, I'm not alone then.

• 26:07Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 26:08Speaker 02

  And I think it's the, it's the feeling of it's just you, there's a deeply lonely feeling that, that by the moment we go, oh, you do that as well, you feel that, oh my God, me too. Okay, so, so there's hope then, because actually this is, this is a universal issue.

• 26:22Fearne Cotton?

  It's human condition.

• 26:23Speaker 02

  It's a human condition.

• 26:24Fearne Cotton?

  Exactly.

• 26:25Speaker 02

  And how do we get free from this?

• 26:27Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 26:27Speaker 02

  How do we walk freely? And I think it's conversation, connection, vulnerability, telling the truth. You do it in the right place, but daring to believe you'd be loved more for it. You know, my, if you, I did a drawing the other night, actually, of this crazy, messy wood. And it's wild and completely scrawly and, and the male says to the boy, you know, you feel, your feelings look like this, but all we see is this, and it's a leaf.

• 26:57Fearne Cotton?

  Wow.

• 26:58Speaker 02

  Little leaf just falling. So there's this disparity between what's going on inside of you, which is all, all kinds of stuff. And then you show us this. And at some point, you're going to have to, for your freedom, talk about this.

• 27:13Fearne Cotton?

  Yep.

• 27:14Speaker 02

  Get, get it out.

• 27:15Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:15Speaker 02

  Just whoever it is, doesn't really matter, or it does matter, but just do it. And you're, you know, and believing that shame locks you in, but if you dared to, to be vulnerable, you have this. This, oh my gosh, huge vista to walk in.

• 27:30Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:31Speaker 02

  Of honesty.

• 27:32Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 27:32Speaker 02

  And, and you do this, you feel this? Okay.

• 27:34Fearne Cotton?

  Of course.

• 27:35Speaker 02

  Okay, and they, you know.

• 27:36Fearne Cotton?

  And you think other people are gonna go, oh my god, I'm never gonna torture you again. You are awful. And they don't, they do the opposite. And I learned that time, I did it recently where I was like, someone I didn't know as well, and I, and there was things that were sort of plaguing me mentally. And then I was like, one day, I just need to tell you some stuff about myself because I'm feeling like I'm just like living a lie, like being an actor.

• 27:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:56Fearne Cotton?

  And of course, everything I said was met with kindness, compassion, love. And it's, you know, we have to remind ourselves that, you know, most great people will respond with grace and care. They're not gonna shun you and ostracize you. That's not, not the case.

• 28:15Speaker 07

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of the best one yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithgemini. That's goo.gle/workspacewithgemini.

• 28:48Speaker 06

  For investors at the highest level of sophistication, those with strong advisory support, the natural outcome is two distinct portfolios, one public, one private. Each plays a different role in the overall strategy. Uncover new investment opportunities for you at creativeplanning.com/new.

• 29:03Speaker 08

  At Humana, our Medicare Advantage plans are easy to understand and easy on your wallet, like offering more benefits than you'd get from original Medicare alone, and including dental, vision, and hearing coverage in every plan. And the best part is, every plan has a $0 or low monthly plan premium, which makes it easier to save too. So this Medicare planning season, plan well with Humana. Learn more at gethumana.com. Humana is a Medicare Advantage, HMO, and PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 29:35Speaker 10

  It's time. It's the most wonderful time of the year. Halloween.

• 29:43Speaker 11

  And you guys know we don't do Halloween by halves. Full costume, full prosthetics, full commitment. I'm a rat. And I'm the chef. It's our Ratatouille special. Then we're grabbing our broomsticks for the witches. We've got a spooky hotline caller. An update from our woman who was in love with the ghost of Prince Albert. And your tarot card dilemmas. Listen to our Halloween specials, search for The Girl's Bathroom.

• 30:12Fearne Cotton?

  Right, let's get back to the show. Here's Ben West, Lulu and Jamie Laing. I'm sure many people, including myself, have felt extreme shame about things in life. It's probably one of the ugliest emotions to feel. It makes your skin crawl. It makes you just wanna escape everything. It's just a horrible, toxic, toxic feeling. You, at one point, again, I'm imagining, due to your level of shock and grief, felt responsible for Sam's death. And that was grinding you down and bringing on so much shame. How did you start to lift yourself out of that? I think when you're in shame, you feel like, this is it forever. I'm never, ever gonna rid myself of this.

• 30:56Fearne Cotton?

  What helped you to move through that?

• 30:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's an interesting question. It's funny, isn't it? Because I've done so much work, I don't feel that shame anymore, thankfully. But I sometimes need to remind myself of just how intense that was. So, I mean, I'm very, unfortunately, you know, as we were brothers, like, we argued a lot, got on quite a lot. But one of the last things that happened, well, the last thing that happened between me and Sam was, as he was leaving, I sort of shouted something after him because I was annoyed at how he'd not been involved in dinner. And it ended up being the last thing I ever said to him was just this heated argument. And that just crushed me because I realised, I can't remember when, but maybe not the day after, but like when things had started to settle, I just remembered what had happened and I was like,

• 31:41Speaker 04

  oh my god, he did it because of me. He did it because of that conversation. And I went into this absolute panic and realised, and obviously the nature of shame is, you feel a bit of shame, then you feel ashamed about that and then it all just cascades. And I, I just remember panicking, feeling that shame. And it got so intense that I couldn't, I felt like I couldn't tell anyone about it. Because I thought everyone else had forgotten that happened. And if I was to say something, bearing in mind we had the police at our house, like detectives and stuff. I was like, oh, I'm gonna get arrested. It's my fault. Like, they're gonna arrest me for manslaughter or something. And it seems silly sitting here saying it, but I was so convinced I'd committed a crime.

• 32:24Speaker 04

  That I was absolutely petrified of anyone finding out, that I felt so ashamed. And I guess that probably played a little bit into me trying to pretend like I was okay. And being happy because I just wanted it. I really, really, really was scared of, of going to prison and being arrested for this.

• 32:38Fearne Cotton?

  So much for you to deal with.

• 32:41Speaker 04

  Seventeen, I know.

• 32:42Fearne Cotton?

  At seventeen, like, but also you've lost your brother and then you think it's your fault. I, I don't know how you got through it.

• 32:50Speaker 04

  No, I know. And I guess for a long time, it was just sort of pretending that I was okay. But really, the turning point of shame was the first time I told that story. About feeling like I was gonna be arrested to a lovely, lovely, lovely councillor that I worked with for a number of years, Lucy. And I remember sitting there, it was during Covid, so it was virtually, and just sort of telling this story. It took me many, many, many sessions to get to this point of feeling comfortable saying this. And I just told her how I've actually felt about everything and how I told her about like how, what I felt about that night. And why I think he took his own life that night. And she just stopped me and she was just like. Ben, that's not how it works, you know, that's not how it works. It is nothing you did made

• 33:35Speaker 04

  that happen and it's not your fault. And it was just this weird moment. It almost feels like a movie, like I'm making this up, but it was this moment where it's like, oh my God, yeah, you're so right. And it it took me years. I think I was four years later to get to that point of like, someone else told me it wasn't my fault. And that was enough for my brain to go, oh, yeah, of course it isn't. And that was the first, that was the first moment I really was okay with it not being my fault. And from that moment, like I've, I've spoken to a lot of people that have been suicidal. And one of the questions I ask all of them is like, what do you think in that moment? What's that? What is that last thought before you, before you like commit to what you, to what you're about to do? What is that last thought? And, and none of them have said, it's that argument

• 34:19Speaker 04

  or that one thing someone's shouted at me, or it's that one menial moment that, that someone's thinks about, you know, it's, it's not, if I'm talking to those people, it's so settling that actually, in that moment, your brain is just in such a distorted place that you're not having thoughts that make sense. And that with that's been very settling. And I've sort of tried to understand, not that you can understand too much about suicide, but I've tried to understand. And through that, I've felt settled back, back that actually I didn't do anything wrong. And I've reframed a lot of my shame to go, how on earth was seventeen year old Ben so unaware and so uneducated that I didn't get the tools to

• 35:01Speaker 04

  help? Because if my current self went back to being seventeen, I know so much more. I could have, I could, I do help people that are in that situation. Like I, I love, I work for Shout as a volunteer. Like I have conversations with people that are in crisis all the time. I would be able to help. Like if I'd had that knowledge back then, and my mom had had her knowledge back then, and my family had their knowledge back then, the school had the knowledge they have now back then, what could have been different? It's just, it's not, it's hard to think about. Um, but I guess, you know, it comes back to the campaigning that, that we can now try and make a difference. Um, and a lot of my shame got redirected into anger at why I wasn't given that opportunity to essentially save Sam.

• 35:41Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah, how interesting. How interesting that. Emotions can morph into something completely different, like a level up. And actually, you're channeling that anger into, well, I'm gonna bloody well make changes. And you are, I mean, massive ones, which, which we're going to get to. But I think it's so important for people who have either been through something similar or just feel shame to know that it's not your fault. And you've done that via someone telling you, a brilliant counselor, but also by educating yourself and knowing that it's an illness and there's nothing that you potentially could have done that evening to stop that from happening. The end of chapter one, you summarize that initial part of the book by saying, this is your time to be utterly transparent, whereas you might not have been entirely transparent before.

• 36:26Fearne Cotton?

  What, what stopped you, do you think, talking about the entirety of your story before now?

• 36:32Speaker 05

  I have a pat answer, which is I'm a private person.

• 36:35Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 36:35Speaker 05

  But really and truly, I had a lot of shame about my life, about moments in my life, my childhood. And, you know, I just, to be honest with you, my mother trained me very early on. Anything that goes on in this house does not leave this house. And so, obviously, the violence and the alcoholism and all the stuff in my young childhood, I was ashamed.

• 37:10Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, you've got to do a hell of a lot of work personally to get to a point where you can then start.

• 37:16Speaker 05

  Talk.

• 37:17Fearne Cotton?

  Even telling mates about this stuff. You know, I've got big patches of my life where I know that shame still sort of floats around in the equation. And they're always the moments, you know, where I need to go to therapy again and talk about stuff or, you know, some stuff I still wouldn't want to talk to my friends about. So to write it in a book is a huge deal because you've got to talk about it all over again. You've got to have a level of comfort with it. What's gotten you to that point?

• 37:43Speaker 05

  Well, I'm seventy six. That's what's got me. I mean, and I do feel privileged to be seventy six because, you know, my mother didn't live this long, my father didn't live this long, and.

• 37:57Speaker 05

  I'll tell you what happened. I think this, I think maybe the kick in of I'm gonna do the book, you know, because I'd thought about it, people had mentioned it, and I thought, maybe, yeah, we'll see, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then my granddaughter turned fifteen. And my son and I were, you know, looking at her, just loving her, loving her to pieces. She's just so great. And fifteen and going to school. I mean, she's a young woman, but she's really only a little girl. And my son then said, Bella, you know what Nana was doing at fifteen? And really, really, it's sort of like, yeah, wow, wow, wow. He said, she was in business, she was on the road, no school for Nana.

• 38:44Speaker 05

  And then, you know, when I started to think about writing my memoir, telling my story, because it's been said by only, I think there are four people who really know me, really know me. And one of them said, people think they know you, they have no idea, they just don't, they don't know, because I don't share certain things. I chose not to share certain things. And, and I thought, my grandchildren don't know. I'm gonna do it. That's the reason I'm gonna do the book, for their, a legacy for my grandchildren, to get to know who their grandmother was. And that's when it started, and boy, I had to go back into therapy once I started. I bet.

• 39:26Speaker 05

  Because I had so carefully blanked things out, pushed them down, and to drag them up again was emotional, it was painful. I mean, a lot of the thing, there are things in the book too, because I've just finished Audible that made me laugh, what a need you I am.

• 39:46Speaker 05

  Thank God I've got a sense of humor. But, you know, I think everybody's story is, I mean, for me, I read books mainly to learn. Yeah. Because I'm curious. And I thought, well, you know, maybe if I tell my whole story, and, and then I started to look at it, and I'm thinking, oh my, what a life, Lou, I've had a life. What a life. And if somebody can get something from it that maybe helped them, or they may think, oh, that's a good idea, or I wonder why she did that, or maybe I should try, or, you know. One person decides that it's helpful.

• 40:23Speaker 05

  That's my small way of giving back, because I've had the most unbelievable life.

• 40:29Fearne Cotton?

  I mean, unbelievable, and you undoubtedly will help so many people, I think, especially when it comes to shame.

• 40:36Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 40:36Fearne Cotton?

  Nobody talks about this stuff, because that's what shame does. Shame stops you from talking, it keeps you quiet, it keeps you straightjacketed. Stays in the dark, yeah. It stays in the dark, and actually, I think you realise, as soon as you start talking about the things that you feel ashamed about, it dissipates, because you're not, you know, you're not, it's not hiding in the dark, growing secretly, and then you have other people.

• 40:54Speaker 05

  Fermenting.

• 40:55Fearne Cotton?

  Fermenting, yeah, and you have other people going, oh my god, same, I've been through that, or I've had something similar, or I feel ashamed about this, it does help.

• 41:03Speaker 05

  That is actually, I mean, for instance, when I started, first of all, they changed my name, they changed my.

• 41:12Fearne Cotton?

  This would have been the record label, right?

• 41:13Speaker 05

  Well, well, it's a combination of people, you know, first of all, it was my manager Marion, my name is Marie McDonald McLaughlin Laurie, well, that's gonna, you know, a bit of a mouth.

• 41:23Fearne Cotton?

  It's not as catchy as Lulu.

• 41:25Speaker 05

  And everybody, like, there was just the Beatles, just been going for a year or so, the Rolling Stones, the Animals, all these cute names, and she said, we need something for you that suits you. And she suggested Lulu, and I sort of went, oh, yeah, because I was thinking of comparing myself with with all the bands. And then, of course, what happened next was that, see, Lulu is a character, I don't know, and it's a character I play.

• 41:51Fearne Cotton?

  So you still click into that even now?

• 41:53Speaker 05

  Now I know what it is.

• 41:55Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 41:55Speaker 05

  Before I wasn't a hundred percent sure, I hadn't analysed it, but I realised, my name changed, my accent has to change, because I speak so quickly anyway. But with a Scottish accent, I was talking like that, nobody knew what I was talking about, so, and I understood that. And then I recorded shout, and they couldn't find another one like it, they couldn't find anything as bluesy, as rocky, and as, because as a singer, I like to ring a song out.

• 42:23Fearne Cotton?

  Oh, you do.

• 42:24Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah. Thank you, and. So that they couldn't find anything for me. And I was given songs that were not challenging enough for me, not in that, that, that I could do the ringing out. And so that's three things they changed. And then one day, coming off stage, I, I pounded my guitarist, what was that? You weren't even looking at the audience, you were watching, and I'm like, and another, and Marion, my manager said,

• 42:54Speaker 05

  yeah? And we both, me and my guitars went, yeah. She said, you can't talk like that. You can't be like that. People are watching you. And they'll think that's all you are, and you'll get a bad name, and they'll think you're this and that, and the next thing. So by that point, I thought, my name isn't good enough, my accent's not right, my personality's obviously not good enough, and it's not correct, it's not proper, it's not socially acceptable, all those things. Even though I didn't have those words in my head at fifteen, socially acceptable. And then the songs would be lightweight, a lot of them, and I'd want something that I could get my teeth into. So I realized I've played the part of Lulu since I was fifteen years old.

• 43:40Speaker 05

  And I am, obviously, part of me is Marie from Glasgow. And, you know, Lulu is happy, clappy, poppy, smiley, the Lulu. And, and, and Marie is happy, scrappy, sometimes angry, bluesy, determined, different to Lulu. But you know, what happens is when you're playing characters like that, especially when you're a child, you take the chara-, I took, I should say, not what anyone else is gonna do, what I did. I took the character of Lulu on because why would I go on stage and not take Lulu with me? People seem to like her.

• 44:24Fearne Cotton?

  Yeah.

• 44:25Speaker 05

  And, but then I didn't know where she ended and where Marie began. So as I got older, it became more obvious. I had to look at that.

• 44:33Fearne Cotton?

  The other thing I didn't know about you, and it seems Sophie's been a big help and initially sort of woke you up to the idea of what was going on, was your eating disorder. I didn't know this about you. And what I found really interesting is you don't use the word bulimia at all when describing it. In my eyes, it's bulimia. I had bulimia for 10 years. I was incredibly uncomfortable saying the word, talking about it. The only reason I started publicly talking about it was because of our dear friend Elizabeth Day. And I went on her podcast and I spoke to her before off mic and said, "I think I want one of my failures to be based around looking after myself and this thing I used to do."

• 45:18Fearne Cotton?

  And I found it so hard to say the word bulimia. I felt ashamed, slightly fraudulent saying it, like I'd made it up, although it ruled a lot of my life for like nearly a decade. But knowing and trusting Elizabeth like I do, I thought this is a really good way of me practising talking about it. And it is a horrible secret illness. You're doing it all in secret. People won't know because you look the same often, you know, especially if you're binging and then purging. You don't really look any different. And, you know, I used to carry gum with me and spray perfume and I had all the little tricks going on so nobody would find out.

• 45:59Fearne Cotton?

  So when you break that secrecy and you either tell someone or someone says, "Were you being sick?" It's so unnerving. I now, through a lot of therapy as well, feel really comfortable talking about it. And also I know that so many people out there are living with this secret unhappily. So I'm, I do know that talking about it will be helpful. Where are you at with discussing it?

• 46:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a big one, right? So the reason I, so when I wrote my book, right, Boys Don't Cry, I, I, I wanted to make it like chapters, right? So A was for anxiety, B was for best friend, L is for loneliness, you know, S is for Sophie. And so because I'm dyslexic, I wanted to make sure that you could just turn to a chapter and just read it. And it was my experience with what I think is a way to help through it. And I really think that's important in life, and that's why I wrote it for my future kid, because I want my baby to understand that they can talk about things, right? And it came to the chapter W and, but I, I've never, I've never spoken of this. And still, as I start to talk about this, I feel like shame, right?

• 47:07Speaker 04

  I get it.

• 47:08Speaker 03

  It came to the, the chapter W and I had promised myself that I'd be honest in the book. And so I thought, right, I'll talk about weight. So W is for weight. And I, I don't think men talk about issues that they have with their weight or their body or the way they look or their hairline or all these things. We just don't. And I thought it was important to do it. And so my story with it is I played a lot of sport, I was very sporty, always quite lean, always looking, you know, everyone always used to say, what a six pack Jamie has, all these things. And I used to eat a lot of food because I was trying to put on weight for rugby, because I was a keen rugby player, a really good rugby player.

• 47:51Speaker 03

  And when I had my knee injury and my sport was taken away from me, I must have gone into some sort of like anxiety without realising it. And I got comfort in eating. And it was back when you didn't really have camera phones at all. And so we had, I had like a disposable camera, I went on holiday and I was taking photos. And my mum would say to me, you look a bit stocky, like you look a bit stocky, like you're eating a lot and you look a bit stocky. And it was very, from a place of love, right? I went, oh, whatever, you know, I didn't even think of, oh, no, whatever. And I went on holiday, got, took some photos, got them developed. And I remember going to like a Snappy Snap, which used to be a place to get developed, and I was going through them. And I came across a picture of me topless on the beach and I did, I looked stocky.

• 48:37Speaker 03

  I didn't look lean, I didn't look like a six packy as I usually was. And immediately I just felt shame. And so that day, something clicked in my brain, I must have been eighteen, nineteen. And probably because of the anxiety of the sport and all those things, I couldn't play sport anymore, which was like thing taken away from me. When I went Elizabeth Day, that was my failure, that I couldn't play sport anymore. Yeah. I started to diet and I'd never done that. I was conscious of what I was eating. So Coca-Cola became Diet Coke and hummus became reduced fat hummus and I would eat rice cakes instead of crisps and I started dieting and I started to become thinner.

• 49:16Speaker 03

  And so then I became so conscious of my, my weight, which I'd never done before. And then that led into, which I didn't even realise, looking back, I didn't realise, is that I, I then joined Made in Chelsea and I went on to Made in Chelsea and everything was edited for me. I had no control over my life. I didn't know what was going on. I was conscious of the way that I looked and all these things because people were writing stuff on social media and all this type of stuff, that I then had to control something. So it became, you know, in part what I was eating. And, you know, I've spoken to people who have had eating disorders and I have to, you know, it's hard for me to say, but

• 49:58Speaker 03

  I had an eating disorder for sure. I've never said that out loud. And even I went to a therapist and when I told the therapist what was happening, I had to cover my eyes and say, because I was too embarrassed about it. But there were moments in my twenties where I wouldn't keep my food down because it was just a complete control thing. And it was a secret that I had. And I knew that other people had this, but I thought it was just women. I thought it was a, something that women suffered, not guys, no way, you kidding me? Guys don't suffer with this? You kidding me? No way, not at all. And actually

• 50:40Speaker 03

  I found one, a friend of mine, a guy friend, a close friend who was being sick into the loo once. And I joked with him about it. I went, oh man, like, are you okay? Don't worry about it. You know, it's okay. And I didn't tell him about my thing, but it made me realise that.

• 50:57Speaker 07

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs, and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalized AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's goo.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 51:30Speaker 08

  Network freedom and flexibility, that's what you want in a healthcare plan. With a Humana Medicare Advantage PPO plan, you can see any doctor in the country who accepts Medicare, including specialists. No referrals, no kidding. Learn more at gethumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to build Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 52:02Speaker 10

  It's time. It's the most wonderful time of the year. Halloween!

• 52:10Speaker 11

  And you guys know we don't do Halloween by halves. Full costume, full prosthetics, full commitment. I'm a rat. And I'm the chef. It's our Ratatouille special. Ben, we're grabbing our broomsticks for the witches. We've got a spooky hotline caller. An update from our woman who was in love with the ghost of Prince Albert. And your tarot card dilemmas. Listen to our Halloween specials. Search for The Girl's Bathroom.

• 52:38Speaker 03

  Oh, other men suffer with this. And when I first started dating Sophie, no one ever knew that I had this occasionally. And I do want to be honest, it was occasionally. It wasn't like a constant thing the whole time. It was just occasionally. Sophie caught me once. And this secret that I had was suddenly not a secret anymore. And suddenly I realized what was going on. And she says to me, what are you doing? And I said, oh, I was doing nothing. And she said, yes, you were, you were, I heard you being sick. And I said, well, I know I wasn't. And she said, she said, it's okay. I just want you to know that whatever you're dealing with, I'm sorry. And if you ever want to talk about it, I'm here.

• 53:22Speaker 03

  And that suddenly became a, I suddenly clicked on to what was happening. I was like, what the hell is? It was like I was an out of body experience. And then it was suddenly a realistic thing, what I was doing. I never spoke to Sophie again about it. And I was then watching the Freddie Flintoff new documentary about it. And Jack Whitehall, who's a friend of mine, actually went on the screen. And he said, uh, that he had suffered with an eating disorder throughout. It's, I can't even say, I find it hard to say the word. But he suffered with an eating disorder. And I thought, well, maybe I should talk about what I experienced. Because women are amazing how they talk about body positivity. And that's just amazing and it's all great. But with guys, we never talk about it.

• 54:05Speaker 03

  To be sexy and attractive, we have to go to the gym and do press ups and have abs and have bleaks and be able to lift a hundred kilograms and look that way. And not everyone can do that. And we sort of suffer, in my experience, suffer really in silence because it's so shameful. You don't talk to your guys about it, no fricking ways. Are you kidding me? Not in a million years. I could maybe talk to my mum about it. I could maybe talk to my sister about it, couldn't talk to guys about it. Yeah, and it was something that I thought was important to talk about in the book. Because if another guy picks it up and turns to that chapter and reads it and reads my experience, and then the ways that I think are really good to coping with that situation, I think it could be really important. Yeah. But it was, yeah, it's, um, it's for whatever reason, don't know. I'm happy, I can talk about my anxiety. I know, whatever it is, I can talk about anything.

• 54:48Speaker 03

  That for me is one thing that I really, because I don't, firstly, I don't want to be defined by anything like that. I don't want to be defined by anything, really. But, and also, I, um, yeah, it's a very shameful thing for some reason. I find it pretty shameful.

• 55:03Fearne Cotton?

  Well, if you've learned anything from those conversations, it's that shame loves festering in silence. That is its favourite place to dwell. So come and be loud about all your messy bits on Instagram with us, at Happy Place Official. We're a little community, we're a little gang, and we like chatting about this stuff. If you want to listen to any of the full episodes, you heard little bits of today, there'll be links in the show notes for you. So do go back and listen to the full episodes because they're hearty. In the meantime, a massive thanks again to everyone who's come on Happy Place and has been honest about the more difficult parts of their lives, because I really appreciate it. Huge thanks to our brilliant producer, Anushka Tate, at Happy Place Studios, and to you, you do not have to suffer in silence.